Mini 1698: MDCXCVIII [C'est fini!]

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Hello.

12-day days and 2-day nights is fine with me.

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VOTE: WoodyWoodpecker

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Unvote

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx
I wanted to do this earlier but there was no one else voting him so it wasn't really worth it. Thank you, KK.

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RVS literally requires no reason and D1 requires only a weak one.

Yeah I Dont like this. Town doesn't need cover for a vote.

Switching from a singleton vote to another person with no votes on them seems rather pointless when the aim is to get the game moving and start seeing how people react to votes. I wanted to vote for GrayFoxxxx, but there wasn't much point in it and I didn't particularly like any other votes I saw.

My reasoning is similar to Khan's. Overjustified RVS votes are scummy, although this was a minor case.

Another miscellaneous thing: Khan's vote/reasoning is not a towntell. Reasoning is reasoning, it's the kind of thing that will be done as either town or scum.

Also, there are better ways to avoid reactions. Your analysis is false.

For me at least, it's not about actively avoiding reactions. It's more of a subconscious thing.

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For me at least, it's not about actively avoiding reactions. It's more of a subconscious thing.

You subconsciously think I'm scum?

No, I'm saying that scum will subconsciously do things like overjustifying RVS votes because they want to avoid being conspicuous. Hence there being other ways to avoid reactions is irrelevant. But I also somewhat like post 80, so.

Unvote

VOTE: Necessary Evil
Necessary Evil voted for Mario for doing something "strange", without equating strange with scummy. When questioned on it he once again called it strange. I'd like a better explanation of why strange in this case equates to scummy.

Good candidates for town so far are dragonspawn and Woody, and maybe Shazam. Boonskiies also might be scum.

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I wasn't sheeping KK, I just didn't have enough of an inclination to vote for you before I saw that it would make a wagon. Obviously I could be lying about that if I'm scum but that would be a bit silly, no?

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I wasn't sheeping KK, I just didn't have enough of an inclination to vote for you before I saw that it would make a wagon.

But you said

I wanted to vote for GrayFoxxxx.

My reasoning is similar to Khan's.

Unvote

VOTE: GrayFoxxxx
I wanted to do this earlier but there was no one else voting him so it wasn't really worth it. Thank you, KK.

So you did or didn't want to vote me before Kahn did? Youre flip flopping.

I'm not flip flopping, you're misinterpreting me. I had some inclination to vote before KK voted, but not enough to actually vote. I wasn't sheeping because I was voting him for my own reasons.

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Are you referring to me, or Woody?

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I wasn't sheeping KK, I just didn't have enough of an inclination to vote for you before I saw that it would make a wagon. Obviously I could be lying about that if I'm scum but that would be a bit silly, no?

Don't like this either. Why do you need to wait for others to make a wagon? Town has no reason not to create the wagons on suspects even if no one else sees it yet.

Scum on the other hand doesn't want to rock the boat.

A single vote is not creating a wagon, and I had no reason at the time to believe that anyone would vote with me. I wanted a better place to put my vote. I was also only looking at the game for 10 minutes or so.

In those 10 minutes, I didn't see it as productive to change my vote to a different person who had no votes. Maybe you would have if you had been me, but you're not.

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Also, Woody, to actually address the point you're making... yes, Shazam didn't RVS vote. He voted with an actual reason (whether or not he actually thought it was a strong reason to vote). Gray voted with a fabricated reason, or a pseudo-random reason.

Besides, just because two people do similar things in two posts, doesn't mean they made the same post. Different posts can have different feels to them. And "I've seen town do X" does not mean that X is not scummy.

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I'm not flip flopping, you're misinterpreting me. I had some inclination to vote before KK voted, but not enough to actually vote. I wasn't sheeping because I was voting him for my own reasons.

Your own reasons?

The only one you have given is because KK voted me. (Sheeping).

I was like meh about the vote but your logic here isn't good at all.

Nope. I did give my own reason, even though it was similar to KK's.

My reasoning is similar to Khan's. Overjustified RVS votes are scummy, although this was a minor case.

I felt that way before KK had voted for you, I just didn't say it because I was on a short break and, again, didn't have enough of an impetus to vote for you.

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Khan's like the towniest guy besides me.

You realize that this is tangential to the argument that you've been having for the past page that led nowhere, right?

I also really fail to see what was towny about his reasoning. Like I said, I think it's logical, but it isn't a towntell.

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Boon's also no longer scummy.

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Why are you so concerned with your vote's 'weight' so early?

Because people (aka Grayfoxxxx) keep asking me about it? I'm not going to ignore questions or arguments made towards me.

Like why are you more focused on your votes placement than on addressing scumreads or producing content?

I have addressed reads and produced content; points were made towards me, so I'm going to address those points. No one has criticized any of my

reads

as of yet, so I haven't discussed any in-depth. I've given a number of townreads (dragon, woody, shazam) and a current scumread on NE; I gave a scumread on foxxxx which I've since retracted, and a weak scumread on Boon, which I've since retracted (he's now in the townread pile, foxxxx is null). I can go in-depth into any involved reasoning if desired.

Another point I have been harping on, and will harp on more: KK really has not towntold yet. Everything he's done so far is just pure reasoning; it isn't necessarily a towntell for him just because you agree with his reasoning. I'd like to hear from Boon why KK is town.

I would have also expected you to vote him after you said you wanted to. Why havent you?

Not sure what you mean; i am voting NE right now. He's still somewhat scummy.

[implosion]

Also, meant to say this earlier, happy birthday KK!

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Been looking over implosion some more and I just see more questions. He didn't want to "waste" his vote by voting for gray before he knew whether a wagon could start, but he didn't hesitate being the first vote on woody at the beginning or being the first vote on evil after giving this explanation. So why was voting first on gray a wasted vote but voting first on woody and evil perfectly alright?

My first vote was more or less an rvs vote. My recent vote was after I no longer liked my vote on gray, in the stage of the game where things were happening. At the time that I was thinking of voting grayfoxxxx, I wanted the game to start picking up, so there was relatively little reason to switch from one vote to another without forming a wagon.

I look this over and I see backtracking by someone who is caught making a mistake. It's a sign of a guilty conscience and bad reasoning.

Sorry, but I'm not a dumb enough player to make a "mistake" like that... I'm more than anything annoyed at being repeatedly questioned on something so inane. It really is meaningless. I would much rather focus on scumhunting, or at least answering questions about things I've done that are actually meaningful. There's no reason that I would backtrack over something so simple as a the reasoning for a page two vote as either alignment.

@bulba, a marathon kingmaker game is really completely irrelevant to a regular mafia game. Acting that way and "hiding behind" things is normal in kingmaker regardless of alignment.

I'm really not getting a good read on mario from his play so far. I need to see more from him, will probably look more closely at what he's posted so far shortly.

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Well yeah, then read him through other stuff >_>. Basing reads off of bad external evidence is not better than basing them off of purely internal evidence.

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Yeah, mario has said a lot without saying a lot. The last line of 79 feels gut-townish. He needs to say more. In particular he actually needs to give any reads at all before I can be confident of much.

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Almost everything has a meaning in Mafia. Players give subconscious clues to their alignment. That's what the game is all about.

You would backtrack if you were bothered by the pressure you were under and that is generally a scum tell.

I kind of disagree. A lot of things have meaning, probably most things. But certain behaviors, especially after you've played a lot of games, are just automatic regardless of alignment. I'm pretty much always going to be honest about reads and reasons early day one, as town because I'm town, and as scum because I've found it's the easiest way for me to act town. That honesty is automatic. Me backtracking implies that I did something that I didn't at the time have a justification for doing, and that's just not something I'd do regardless of alignment, even if that justification is as simple as "I felt like it." I have no reason to lie or backtrack this early as scum.

I might "backtrack" in the sense that I need to (accurately) justify my past behavior if I'm bothered by the pressure regardless of alignment, because regardless of alignment I'd rather pressure be focused elsewhere.

---

Additionally note that in this post, NE dances around the issue of my alignment. He's commenting on the situation, and saying that I might backtrack maybe and that it's generally a scumtell, so he's sort of throwing a broad paintbrush stroke of suspicion towards me without actually committing to a read. That's scummy.

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@Impolsion - you won't see more of him. He posts once and leaves. He doesn't read the thread thoroughly.

He's posting a decent amount, he just needs to say less about unimportant mafia-theoretic opinions and more about reads.

Stubbs also needs to post more. I keep looking at his opening post and not liking it. And he hasn't posted since then. FA_Q2 also needs to post more although I don't particularly dislike his posts so far.

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@Grayfoxxx - it's day fucking 1, why are you trying so hard to derail the Mario votes? For the most part, it's just pressure, no one is actually going to lynch him yet. You are completely going against a town win con by trying to stop a wagon pointlessly. IT'S FUCKING PAGE 9! Let a wagon form and see how he reacts to the pressure and how others react to him.

This is a bit of an overreaction, no?

Boon, you're the one who needs to chill out (passionate or not)... people are allowed to defend other people early in the game. "Pressure is good" is not some universal formula to winning as town; this is doubly true if, as you seem to be saying, Mario is the kind of player who is never going to give us any kind of useful reaction.

Gray is saying that he's using the information from the wagon to start scumhunting, while you're essentially demanding that we continue wagoning to obtain more information. Those are just two different playstyles or two different ways of looking at things. I actually personally see Gray as townier and townier in these pages.

His vote on me was very odd.

I can see you seeing it as odd. But odd does not equate to scummy. But w/e.

I like a bulb vote better than a mario vote. Nothing that mario posted gives me strong feelings except for that line that I mentioned gave me a gut town read. And it also just isn't going to be productive from a pressure standpoint if he's a chronic lurker.

Bulb has said relevant things towards mario, but he hasn't made any comments about literally anyone else in the game since RVS. He says he finds Mario the scummiest... but that's a very vague statement when he hasn't given a single read on anyone else.

Unvote

VOTE: bulb

I still want to visit NE, but people are ignoring my points on him (particularly the bottom of 193). He's still acting scummy. He's essentially ignoring everything in the game except for Mario because he says he's waiting on Mario to see whether or not he answers the question, or what else he does, while he asks random questions towards people in the mean time. Waiting for days to give a better read on one person while ignoring forming reads on other players is not town play, it's scum trying to stay under the radar and create an excuse for not creating content. Three of his most recent four posts (134, 167, the first half of 238) are all basically just saying exactly this with different wording. He's talking a lot about the development of his mario read, but not much else.

If anyone could give any additional opinions on NE, it'd be appreciated.

[implosion]

I've been lazy today.

I explained my scumread on Bulb (mostly directed at dragonspawn who asked why). But he very immediately did what I said he hadn't been doing, which is a decent sign.

Unvote

The way pisskop is actively fighting the mario/dom wagon rather than just complaining about it reads more as town trying to prevent a bad lynch than as scum trying to gain towncred for derailing a mislynch (or scum trying to defend a buddy). So pisskop is a townread.

In response to Dom's ]316:

no explaination for that?

I don't always explain townreads without being asked; if you want, I can explain it.
As for the second quote from me in that post... IDK what Dom is saying, I'm not calling gray scum in the quoted post, I'm pretty sure Dom is misreading it (I explicitly called gray null in the post that he quoted, yet he asked why I was calling him scummy).

Still catching up, just don't want post to be too giant.

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I don't like KK's vote on pisskop in 333 (beyond just disagreeing with pisskop being scum). It seems like grasping to me. He criticizes pisskop's reasoning for unvoting that he's been lynched for not doing it before, as if only scum has a reason to avoid being lynched, which is just overtly wrong. Beyond that KK just criticizes things that I don't see much reason to find scummy. I feel like there are so many other things that have happened in this game that focusing and voting based on the quotes he brings up is odd in a somewhat scummy way. It just doesn't feel like genuine reasoning to me.

It baffles me that the entire town seems to strongly townread KK. Based on what has looked to me like a series of mostly completely null posts, and now this.

I know I've been tunneling on Mario but I found him really scummy and I'm not to confident in my other reads. I wanted to focus attention on him to create pressure. I'm not sure about TheDominator37 yet.

I find Woody a bit scummy. His posting seems to be rather fluffy as Boonskiies pointed out, but he has are some town tells, too. I'm just not sure. I thought GrayFoxxx was scummy before but his recent posts look like town. I definitely see the case on Bulbazoor. I kind of see the case on pisskop, too, but I'm not sure.

The main problem right now is that we have a couple of players that haven't contributed much (FA_Q2 and StubbsKVM). It is easy for scum to sit back and watch townies lynch each other.

How does anyone else not see this guy as scummy? He's giving himself SO much explicit wiggle room here. He doesn't want to call a bunch of people null because then it won't sound like he's giving concrete reads, so he says Woody is scummy but has some towntells, Gray was scummy but has also towntold, that he can see the case for one growing wagon, and that he can kind of see another case. That is just so overtly waffley. He's building in room to go in whichever direction is most convenient in an extremely underhanded way.

He then proceeds to vote a lurker for an opportunistic vote. Which is pretty much the least risky possible way to vote if you're scum.

Idk. Only ONE person has said anything regarding NE in response to the points I've made (correct me if I'm wrong), and that's Shazam.

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To me this essentially reads that "oh you scum read me for my vote on you then Ill just sheep your vote then." It looks to me like an attempt to shift grays suspicions off of him - and it seems to have worked.

I don't want gray to suspect me; I think gray is town, and if I'm correct than him (or any other town member) suspecting me is a bad thing. I very well may be subconsciously (lol, that word) trying to get people not to suspect me, because I as town would rather not be under suspicion so that we can focus on people who may be scum. Beyond that... idk, that just seems like a really weak reason to vote. Why would I care specifically about gray and not all of the other people who have been suspecting me for a while if I'm scum?

The only salient point I see that makes me suspect the Dom slot is the possibility that Mario was just a bad new player under pressure as scum. Idk. I guess I should look at the game in question. I just don't know if, if it is the case that he replaced out because he's new/feeling pressure, if he would do that even if he was feeling pressure as town. Dom's play so far is very eh.

VOTE: Necessary Evil

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I disagree that he would cave so heavily to pressure even if he was town. If he really was town and therefore: a) had nothing to hide and b) had less to fear from his own lynch, he would not have reacted so poorly.

Well, I'm not saying this is the case, just that it could be. It's a personality thing. There are plenty of people who would do that kind of thing regardless of alignment (and even those who would be more likely to do it as town because of anger, although that pretty clearly isn't the case here). It is probably still a scumtell if he's done it before as scum, though. I'm just not convinced it's, say, a perfect confidence kind of thing.

I think the most important word in your post is "overtly". He seems to be outright admitting that he's leaving himself wiggle room, because he's admitting that he doesn't know that much at this point. I don't see that as scummy, just useless.

My point is that town would be more explicit (maybe calling the post overt was misleading). NE's post to me as town would give explicit conclusions. He would say that boon/gray/pisskop are null (or his actual opinions on them), rather than dancing around the issue in a way that could be interpreted in literally whatever way he wants. All three of those reads quoted call the people in question both town and scum in one way or another. Saying "X is scummy, but has towntold" about three people in one post as town is like leaving a sentence incomplete. There should be more there explaining how he feels about those players explicitly.

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I think the most important word in your post is "overtly". He seems to be outright admitting that he's leaving himself wiggle room, because he's admitting that he doesn't know that much at this point. I don't see that as scummy, just useless.

My point is that town would be more explicit (maybe calling the post overt was misleading). NE's post to me as town would give explicit conclusions. He would say that boon/gray/pisskop are null (or his actual opinions on them), rather than dancing around the issue in a way that could be interpreted in literally whatever way he wants. All three of those reads quoted call the people in question both town and scum in one way or another. Saying "X is scummy, but has towntold" about three people in one post as town is like leaving a sentence incomplete. There should be more there explaining how he feels about those players explicitly.

I was explicit as I possibly could be. I named people that at one time or another I thought could be scum. None of them are null. There is no dancing around here; I was completely honest about my reads on players that could be scum. I didn't mention players that I thought were null or town on purpose because I think that gives scum information.

Unvote

for now. I'm going to reread when I get a chance.

Hrng. In trying to explain how he was being explicit

NE continues to use the same hedging, non-explicit language.

"People that at one time or another I thought could be scum." "My reads on players that could be scum."

The strongest thing he is willing to say about these players is that they "could be scum."

Literally anyone could be scum. Saying "they could be scum" towards people leaves so much wiggle room. NE just keeps making my point again and again with every post.

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Honestly, the people on the Mario wagon are tunneling less than the people who aren't. I'm considering other options besides Mario, where as you people are flat out against voting Mario, and only giving ONE other option. I've named multiple. I've also named some town reads of mine, while sharing who I can't figure out. The push AGAINST Mario is far worse than the push for Mario.

Phone post but.

Idk why you're reducing people not on the wagon to some kind of conglomerate. A ton of different alternatives have been offered/fossed over the course of the day.

[implosion]

Also just cause somebody has a case, doesn't mean it's right. I can make a case on anyone if I put my mind to it

Except it is right. mario's fucking scum. You have no actual reason to say it's a bad case unless you KNOW he is not scum, or maybe even a buddy of yours. You have some hidden info, Woody? It's appearing more and more so.

This is also just stupid. No one is obligated to believe your case. By your logic you should sheep me on to necessary evil because you don't KNOW he isn't scum.

[implosion]

It's not MY fucking case. Don't fucking say 'your case'. I haven't once faught your fucking NE case? At all. I'm not defending it either. Wanna know why? BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK HE IS. This is completely proving exactly what I just said, so thanks for being the most ignorant idiot ever and accidentally proving my point.

Assuming you're town, you don't know what anyone else is, including the Mario slot. You just suspect him of being scum. Likewise, some others suspect him of being town. So why are you allowed to share your opinion, but when others aren't? Sorry for calling it your case if it isn't; that wasn't my point.

Additionally, I would absolutely love if you fought my NE case (or supported it!) Cases are an excellent springboard for discussion.

Also, please be civil. There's no need to call me an ignorant idiot; we should be having a discussion, not flinging names. As far as I can tell, this argument is about a difference in philosophy, there is absolutely no need to get so heated over it. You seem to be arguing that others should scumhunt in the same way that you do, but I scumhunt better by primarily acquiring townreads. Sometimes those townreads may conflict with cases that have been made (in this case I don't actually strongly townread the Mario slot, but others seem to). I don't understand why you think the case on Mario should be immune to criticism.

[implosion]

Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're scum. Woody seems to understand that. I'm not sure if boon does, given a couple of the things he's said. His current Woody fos just looks like him fossing Woody for disagreeing... which is honestly just stupid. This post gives the same impression.

I have ardently townread my biggest detractors for the way that they have disagreed with me. I'm honestly not sure if Boon is looking for intent in Woody's posts or if he's just blindly decided that it's him vs Woody.

This entire thing is kind of turning into us vs them (namely, those on the mario wagon refusing to find any common ground with those off it).

[implosion]

Also because it might be unclear, I still think Boon is town (although i disagree with pretty much everything he's said in the last 5 pages). Even if he's just arguing without looking for intent in Woody's play, I think he's just getting wrapped up in the argument.

[implosion]

I think one of my biggest pet peeves is this, though...

I think your NE case is fine. I don't think the mario case should be immune to criticism, just not defended to hell. Like god damn. be open fucking minded, people.

People disagree with you. They are allowed to do that. That does not make them closed minded. People are allowed to review the evidence and come to a different conclusion than you from reviewing the same evidence. If people have strong opinions they will defend those opinions strongly.

[implosion]

At what point are you all going to realize that scum doesn't generally work that hard on Day 1?

one of the towniest people in this game. He isn't posting all to much, and yet, he still says this. No way he is scum. I like how people just 'forgot' they scum read Khan too.

I'm willing to call this a minor towntell but I can absolutely see scum-khan posting this.

Can I just point out that Dominator's post rate has dropped significantly since fewer people have been voting him? Could it be more painfully obvious that he is more interested in self-preservation than finding scum?

I have done this as town before. I've had countless town games where I needed the motivation of a fire under my feet to get me going later in the day.

And Woody's been pretty damn logical imo.

[implosion]

I'm looking at Shazam more closely. I think at this point there's a good possibility that I could be convinced to join the wagon.

[implosion]

imo, the only people that even COULD be scumread are Mario/Dom, you (Woodpecker), implosion, Boonskiees, and GrayFoxxx. So I'll ask you this: which of those seems scummiest to you?

Just saw this gem in Shazam's iso... apart from Mario, it reads like a who's-who of my strong townreads <_>. I guess his point is just that no one else had posted enough, but I think I just disagree with that in general. Also idk. There's just so much fucking black-and-white rhetoric going on. It's really starting to piss me off. This is a complex fucking game. Almost nothing is ever fucking black-and-white until it's over. Reads are a good thing. Saying "I don't think anyone could possibly read anyone else as scum outside of these five people" is just patently absurd. It's like trying to say that anyone who disagrees with you is

a priori

wrong, which is just not how productive debate occurs. Maybe I'm just seeing a couple instances of it and it feels like it's everywhere but idk.

We're not going to get anywhere productive like this... although i guess ultimately the problem right now with this game is that there's a large group of lurkers, and I think that a lot of the scum are in the lurkers (including NE, who I'm counting just because no one is in his slot right now so the slot can't post).

My gut at this point says Dom is town. I don't have the best explicit reasoning for that, it just feels like he hasn't been playing like scum replacing into a slot under pressure. And I just don't agree with any of the points on him with the possible exception of the one I've mentioned (the replacing out as scum under pressure point). And Idk, part of me thinks that this game sort of makes sense on a very vague level if Shazam is scum, but that's a terrible reason to scumread Shazam.

Still reading though.

[implosion]

I guess a lot of those players aren't even really lurking. They're just relatively inactive relative to the average.

[implosion]

The angle that I'm looking at this game right now is something like this.

I'm not interested in pursuing any of {Woody, Boon, Gray, dragon, pisskop} more today.
{FA, Stubbs} idk. I think i get a scumvibe from Stubbs's ISO and a townvibe from FA's so we'll put them in those buckets weakly for now.
Dom gut says town. This is very much open to change but I have yet to see something strong enough to sway me.
Khan I just feel like for the most part people are reading too strongly into everything he's said/done but I think there's a good chance he's scum.
NE's slot is my strongest scumread but the replace-out doesn't exactly help me have strong opinions about this game...
Bulba is kind of a very weak gut townread right now. A lot of the phrasings on his posts feel genuine (like 297) which is somewhat subtle, and I also liked the fact that he immediately gave a reads list after I criticized him for being narrow in scope.

And that leaves Shazam. A lot of his posts are dense rhetoric/logic, and I don't think being logical is really a tell. I guess an ordering right now looks something like this:

NE ~~~~ Stubbs ~ Khan ~ Shazam ~ FA ~ Dom ~ Bulba ~~~~ Core townreads.

Still need to look more closely at Shazam but every time I look at his ISO I get nowhere.

[implosion]

I like Dom asking Shazam about me and then me about Shazam. That seems like an action more likely coming from town who's genuinely interested in their two top scumreads than scum who had that idea pop into their head.

[implosion]

Note the "strong" that you apply to your townreads on those players. This is precisely my point. Only those people who post significant content can be strongly read. At that point in the game, and to some extent now, the people I listed were, besides myself, the only people with significant content. Thus I was not saying "people who disagree with me are automatically wrong", but "people who think they find scum outside of these people cannot show themselves to be right".

I agree that at least one lurker is probably scum. But it's easier to find them later.

Eh, this is true to some degree. I've had strong townreads from minimal posts before but I guess those are mostly exceptions.

I guess what I disagree with is the conclusion (if this is what you would say) that this means we should focus on those people. I think my strongest two scumreads right now in NE/Stubbs are both in the lurk pool and I would rather focus towards them because I want to maximize the odds of lynching scum.

I guess my ultimate hope is that these seemingly pointless circles of rhetoric will magically end with all of the townies involved townreading each other and that it looks nigh impossible that that's going to happen. I could of course be wrong about all those reads but ~~~~~

[implosion]

Vote:Stubbs

[implosion]

Pressure, solidarity with 559, and he's my next strongest scumread after a slot that currently does not exist in the game.

[implosion]

Or well, exists unoccupied.

That phrasing sounds weird.

[implosion]

I think I agree with boon's assessment of FA's most recent slew of posts. Something about the way he frames Woody/boon's interaction feels off. He just says that he doesn't like them because of the exchange without any further explanation, but it seems strange that the first thing that would come to mind after such a heated back-and-forth exchange would be that they both become scummier for having been involved. It just feels like an excuse to vote Woody and lead in to a Boon fos tomorrow. He talks about information from the lynch in the case that we get scum, but lynching scum is almost always going to give useful information.

I feel like taking this argument and framing it as "there's probably scum amongst the two of them" is a fairly likely scum tactic. And I don't see it as being a likely reaction to the argument as town. So. This is further strengthened to some degree by my still thinking both of them are town.

I also have a good initial impression of Annarchy's (Stubbs replacement) opening.

Unvote

VOTE: FA
Still have a (decently) strong scumread on the NE slot, contingent of course on spicer's posting. But my votes have been dead ends for pretty much this entire day, and I think I'm happy with this vote right now.

[implosion]

I swear that no one here seems to even understand the term 'sheep.'

[implosion]

Like, if you're criticizing me for voting FA after boon did solely because you think it's sheeping then you're basically criticizing me for agreeing with someone and acting on that agreement... which is just silly, especially when I gave my own specific reasons for suspecting those posts. I looked at them more because Boon mentioned them, and then came to my own conclusions, which happen to align with his.

That isn't sheeping.

[implosion]

Idk imp, jusy agreeing with somebody is sheeping, but that's not what I saw you do. You added more commentary to your post and explained yourself better

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It was just convenient to quote FA since he already said that thing, I wasn't commenting on whether or not FA was sheeping.

[implosion]

I'm not really liking the push on fa. I understand boons reasoning for it but the other votes are just making me uneasy.

Okay, what the fuck? Boon's reasoning was literally "Something doesn't sit right." He also criticized one of FA's posts but it was mostly him defending against those points, not criticizing those points as being scummy (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm leaving soon so I could only skim).

My vote gave explicit reasoning.

How the hell can you understand boon's reasoning for it better than mine?

Will answer other questions later.

[implosion]

I think I agree with boon's assessment of FA's most recent slew of posts. Something about the way he frames Woody/boon's interaction feels off. He just says that he doesn't like them because of the exchange without any further explanation, but it seems strange that the first thing that would come to mind after such a heated back-and-forth exchange would be that they both become scummier for having been involved. It just feels like an excuse to vote Woody and lead in to a Boon fos tomorrow. He talks about information from the lynch in the case that we get scum, but lynching scum is almost always going to give useful information.

I feel like taking this argument and framing it as "there's probably scum amongst the two of them" is a fairly likely scum tactic. And I don't see it as being a likely reaction to the argument as town. So. This is further strengthened to some degree by my still thinking both of them are town.

I also have a good initial impression of Annarchy's (Stubbs replacement) opening.

Unvote

VOTE: FA
Still have a (decently) strong scumread on the NE slot, contingent of course on spicer's posting. But my votes have been dead ends for pretty much this entire day, and I think I'm happy with this vote right now.

I don’t like the exchange because it completely shut out any scum hunting in its entirety and changed the focus of the game from finding scum to useless vitriolic nonsense. What is unclear about that?

Then I gave further reasons for my vote on pecker. And you are damn right if pecker flips town I will suspect boon, he is a scum read after all. I don’t see how that is anti-town.

It was also called opportunistic which is asinine – it was opportunistic insofar as it was a direct reaction to the way the players were behaving. I guess voting for a direct scum claim would be ‘opportunistic’ as well.

Vitriol is a fine reason to dislike it in the sense of dislike as in thinking it's a bad thing. It isn't in the sense of dislike as in thinking it's a scummy thing, which looks like how you were using the word "dislike." You call them scummy for engaging in such vitriol, with absolutely no justification of why being so vitriolic is scummy. I'm not criticizing any other reasons you gave towards Woody, just that.

I'm not calling you anti-town (at least, in my mind, anti-town is a different thing from scummy, anti-town means contrary to the interest of the town whereas scummy means indicative of scum). I'm calling it scummy because from a scum perspective it sets you up to have an easy route to follow tomorrow and I don't think equating vitriol to scum is a likely town reaction.

Will get to Boon's outstanding question in ~an hour.

[implosion]

To answer Boon's question: I see Anna's play so far as townish. I think she's exhibited genuine lines of reasoning. I think from what I've seen you have a tendency to decry anything that disagrees with you or attacks you as lies. I honestly can't remember anyone who has attacked you at all that you haven't responded with some kind of mutual animosity (Woody, FA, now Anna). I'm probably forgetting some case where you have but that's really a bad habit if you're town.

[implosion]

Another note, my townread on dragonspawn is deteriorating. He's pretty much been coasting since five days ago around post 200. He's given a lot of opinions but has given almost no reasoning.

[implosion]

Well give me some reason to comment and I will say more. I'm not in the mood to get involved in pointless bickering.

I asked you a question. Are you actually reading the thread?

[implosion]

Well give me some reason to comment and I will say more. I'm not in the mood to get involved in pointless bickering.

I can relate to this.

I'd be okay with it

if I hadn't literally given him that reason earlier today.

Idk if he thinks it'd be pointless bickering to answer my question or what, but an answer to that question will help me read him.

[implosion]

Because you don't know for a fact that I'm scum if you are town?
Because I might not be lynched today?
Because it's common courtesy to answer questions?
Because my response might help you read me better, either solidifying your scumread on me or losing faith in it?
Because my response might help you convince others to vote for me?
Because it might help others read you?
Because being generally unwilling to discuss things is harmful to the town?
Because you don't want to be read as scum for avoiding my question?

[implosion]

Can someone who dragonspawn has a townread on, and who has a townread on me (or doesn't), please do me a favor and directly ask dragonspawn to answer my question?

Thank you!

[implosion]

BECAUSE IT DERAILS THE ENTIRE TOPIC AND DOES NOT ALLOW SCUM HUNTING WHATSOEVER.

But that doesn't make it scummy, just annoying/frustrating

The arguments that have happened in this game happened while scum hunting and people defending their arguments. Nothing scummy about that. To say there is, is anti town

vote Mr. Anti town FAQ

You are scum looking to divide and conquer. Mislynch one Townie today, than Lynch the other under the guise of "one of these guys must be scum" when in fact the odds are pretty good boon Is probably town andvi know I am

This is pretty much what I have to say in response to FA. Scum aren't going to go out of their way to attack a person for three pages for the express purpose of making the game less readable. Those kinds of arguments arise from personality conflicts which are alignment-independent.

I'm also pretty ready for this day to be over. I feel like I've gotten what I want out of it and it's starting to drag on.

[implosion]

implosion is in the weak town because of a weird vibe that keeps him from being a full town read. Mostly it's the repeated motif where he has to constantly point out "scum-Khan could do that" which is weird that I'm the only one that gets this treatment. I had to look up if we had any game history and we've only ever been in one game together and I was town. If he could give me the reasoning behind this specific treatment I'd appreciate it, otherwise it feels a little like a "smear/discredit the townie" tactic.

I honestly might be giving you burden of proficiency to some degree. You're the only person I've played with at all in this player list (and you're an oldie), and it felt like people were jumping to conclusions very quickly over things that I thought an experienced player could easily say as scum. I do like your catchup post. I honestly am not sure what I was townreading dragonspawn off of. I think it was a gut town ping on 68 and some of his other early posts, and then since he was filed into the town pile I just completely ignored him since he was never saying anything of substance to look at. Like, I knew his vote was on me. And he has been consistently suspecting me, just not doing anything to try to convince anyone else or give any reasoning on it.

WRT Bulb: 928+929 feels genuine to me. It feels like a slightly panicky response that would come from town.

And @Anna, I disagree that there's no attempt to scumhunt in the posts you quoted. I think it's just hard to see because of his posting style.

[implosion]

So that was fun. It looks like Bulbazoor has dramatically voted himself to L-2 status.

VOTE: FA_Q2

This is the direction I'd rather go for today.

did you read the part where bulba slipped

Yeah. I saw what you're talking about.

But Bulbazoor has been clumsily expressing himself all game. I don't think it's the slam dunk you're thinking it is.

Agreed with this. It's certainly suspicious but it's not a 100% kind of thing.

Bulb self-voting and saying he'd rather the day end in not a no-lynch is... strange, to say the absolute least, when there's 3 days until deadline and the thread is going berzerk.

[implosion]

Hammer me but lynch yourself tomorrow.

I like this post. It's a very zen way of going out, written in iambic pentameter.

I'm going to be sad at bulb if this is a townflip.

[implosion]

VOTE: spicer

hey vig (at least I'm assuming you're a vig and not an SK due to the FA kill): shooting N1 is generally a bad idea

Disagree. It's fine in games like this with a day start. Unfortunate that they hit a power role, but it happens. But that's moot either way.

Will iso bulb later.

[implosion]

Spoiler: bulb iso

VOTE: mario
I think you should stop blabbering abour rvs. Mario seems a bit iffy. He defends people for basically pointless reasons.

It is basically a vote on a slot that I find the scummiest. Why dont you like my vote? I find hes trying to act logical like last game in the marathon. As town, I usually see him acting more funnier and sarcastic. In games I read where he was town.

His early push on mario. Cites meta a lot. Could be a bus. Doesn't particularly feel like one.

Stubbs- I need to see more from this slot. All they said was talk about how they scumread woody and townread on boon. Never explains the scumreads or the one on boon. Null.

Implosion is town. I like their posts so far and they seem to come from a town mindset. Same for KK.

Piss is null. Need to see more.

Mario is scum. I do not see play similar to his town game. I know its based mostly off of meta, but it is also a gutread. I do not see any point in the replaceout. Unless he had an issue in rl.

Boon is town. I like his posts so far.

Piss is null. Need to see more.

NE is null. He is also townlean because he makes some good points about gray.

Woody. Town because he was calmly answering the questions and not raging like a newbie would as scum. Mainly a gutread.

Shazam. Scumlean. Why did he react the way he did when I voted him for RVS? And then hes rushing the lynch before replacement even talks? I do not like that.

Dragon. Null.

Gray is scumlean. I thought the vote on me was votehopping and reads switching. Its a gutread.

Nothing here makes me feel too strongly, but it's one of his few detailed posts. The calling NE both null and townlean is interesting, but doesn't make me feel strongly either way.

Why khan. Hes town imo....

This doesn't feel like scum->scum.

I find anna shift to be questionable.

I am kind of finding the way anna 180s her read on me. At first, she claims that I am a townread. Weak, but a read as town. Then, she claims that if FA is scum, wshe wants to keep him for more. That was the questionable part for me and I am wondering why she would want to keep someone if they are the scum? Fa latest post also shows that he is willing to join the wagon that is on me and that I have posted nothing. He was not here to read my posts I made right now. Back to anna...

Anna is being questionable to me right now as a player because I can barely understand how they quickly went from townreading me to " convincing myself that he can do it as scum" when that was already the obvious thing. How did she not notice it? And why did she claim meta as fast as she could when asked? For some reason, I am starting to see anna and FA as a possible scum team up. Anna also claimed that I stopped scumhunting. That is a lie and it is also a factor on my lessened townread on her.

Everything anna has done is, from my perspective, questinonable.

Another one of his few long posts. I guess it doesn't look like a bus? I can easily imagine bulb having just ignored his scumbuddies the entire day, especially if they're players like spicer or dragonspawn.

The players
[01] Bulbazoor
[02] dragonspawn
[03] GrayFoxxxx
[04] FA_Q2
[05] implosion
[06] Boonskiies
[07] spicer1209 < Necessary Evil
[08] Shazam
[09] pisskop
[10] Annarchy < StubbsKVM
[11] TheDominator37 < MarioManiac4
[12] Kublai Khan
[13] WoodyWoodpecker

Arranged from town to scum
Bulbazoor
Kublai
Boon
Woody
Implosion
Dragon
Anna
Piss
Dom
Gray
Spicer
Shazam
FA

This is somewhat fascinating because there's nothing of significance between this and his previous quoted post but anna is now middle-of-the-pack. I would say that's awkward if he's scum with anna. spicer also near the bottom is interesting since the only other time he mentioned spicer that I see was the previous reads list where he was null/town.

Conclusion (my opinions): some degree of townpoints for khan, anna, dom.

[implosion]

I personally at this point will accept a lynch on either dragonspawn or spicer, and only one of those two. I have some degree of townread on everyone else right now. Between those two I have a pretty decent preference for spicer.

I would like to see spicer post but I really think NE was scum.

[implosion]

Whats your analysis of pisskop, implosion?

I had a townread from yesterday but no memory of what it's from, so iso'd him.

Dom is continuing Mario's tradition of being town.

Well, yeah. I assumed that you were reading the game this whole time. Y'know, to catch scum and stuff. Why weren't you?

Game's boring. got more interesting today but its still a lot of hanging on to rather petty things. you're a part of that disengagement.

Dont role claim unless you are at l-1

dah. dont do that.

These are some quotes from him that felt like townish reactions/phrasings. His overall approach to the game and his scumhunting felt genuine as well. The one strike I see against him is his bulb vote combined with the way he phrased his willingness to vote fa looks preeeeeetty bussy but I think that's outweighed.

[implosion]

'subconcious' is a buzzword this game. Grayfoxx also says it a lot.

Lie.

The word subconcious has come up more often in this one game than my last 5. You were the first one to bring it up; I only searched the word.

Another BIG lie. His interactions with bulb feel wierd. Soft defending bulb as well at times. I'm not sold, but Piss could be a busser.

Not a lie that he benefits from saying as scum. Do you think he was motivated by him being scum to lie here? Why would he want to lie about something so easily verifyable as scum?

Doesn't it make more sense that he just made a mistake, either as town or as scum, especially in light of him saying that it was a mistake:

hunh. So implosion said it first.

your reaction to this is petty.

[implosion]

@implosion

I think scum would lie. Town wouldn't wait until he has no other choice to face the truth.

Piss also never actually explained how he searched it and I came up first. Never explained how I said it alot. The post looked to subtly cast suspicion on me( remember it was a lie the whole time). Why else even say it?

When he gets caught lying he tries to downplay it.

Bulb literally got caught as scum by lying. Why doesn't the same logic work here?

Are you talking about the watcher 1-shot claim change? Because that has obvious scum motivation, whereas lying about you using a word does not.

[implosion]

If he's town it wasn't a lie, it was a misreading. It happens. I still see no reason why he would WANT to lie about that as scum. He gains no benefit from it, you're obviously just going to call him out on it.

[implosion]

C

a

s

u

a

l

t

y

r

e

p

o

r

t

Bulbazoor -

Mafia

- watcher (variant)

[implosion]

Possibly a townslip, though. Obviously fakeable, etc.

Time to lynch spicer.

[implosion]

Since we had two kills last night is it possible that we have two scum teams?

It's possible but relatively unlikely. FA is likelier a vig shot than a second scumteam kill. Could theoretically be an sk shot.

[implosion]

In the meantime I'm pretty sure that piss isnt scum. Well for one in all the games of mafia Ive played when scum goes out kicking and screaming and says "LYNCH X PLAYER TOMORROW!" Player X is NEVER town. Now is that an evidentual fact? No but that has been my past experience and I would rather go based on that instead of running in circles and doing the "he could but he also couldnt" game.

This is literally the definition of WIFOM. He (Bulba) has a decision to make (say LYNCH X PlAYER TOMORROW about either town or scum) and there is no particular impetus to do one or the other. It's completely meaningless, and if statistics actually leaned one way that would be an impetus for scum to do the other. It's sometimes possible to glean things from phrasing, but the fact that he said that about someone on its own is meaningless.

Also this is a Normal game so there arent any two faction scum. I could be wrong but I think that isnt allowed in normals but Kahn being a site mod I believe should be able to confirm or deny that. Which means we have a vig because I think serial killers are out on normals as well. Again this is also along the "meta" way of thinking but usually the first flip announced is the scum kill and the second one announced is the vig kill. Which means FA was a scum kill and Shazam was the vig kill.

Normal games are allowed to have multiple scum factions and/or serial killers. We don't need Khan to confirm that. It's pretty rare, though, ime. Further, good moderators will randomize the order of flips and trying to game that is really, really bad. Shazam is a nonsenical vig kill and FA is a nonsensical scum kill. I'd be astonished if Shazam was vigged and FA was scumkilled.

[implosion]

Bulb was tunneling him the entire day.

[implosion]

I have no control over what you think of me.

If you think people have no control over how other people read them then I actually have no idea why you're playing mafia. Literally the entire point of mafia is that we figure out what people are because what they do influences how we see them.

Ok my reads from D1 after going through Bulbs ISO.

Town

GF
Anna
Dom
Dragon
Woody
Boon
Imp
Spice
KK
Piss

Scum

It's obvious that Piss is going anywhere right now. I want to hear more from KK before decide on a vote. Boon has been quiet too.

I don't understand why piss though.

Ok guys you got me.
I'm crying IRL now.

Yeah, turns out this entire game is a conspiracy to troll you, we all know piss is obvscum for lying

[implosion]

I have played with Khan before, once, years ago, and I had a really shit read on him that game. So not particularly useful. His behavior towards dragonspawn right now is pretty much exactly what I'd expect from experienced town who had a scumread on someone who townslipped. That's not a super strong thing though.

Now, in terms of reading spicer. 1089 does actually make me think town for one reason: I don't think it's particularly likely that scum would go out of their way to paint shazam as the vigshot and fa as the scumshot. The first sentence of 1115 is also somewhat town.

Eh. I don't have the best direction to go in. I guess I'll probably look more at other peoples' interactions with bulb.

[implosion]

Alright. Let's see.

I'm not interested in lynching Anna in the foreseeable future. Her read on Bulb sounded genuine, its evolution was genuine and she joined the wagon from having a townread at a crucial time (votes were 4-3 in favor of the FA wagon when she jumped on bulb). I really don't think her play looks like bulb-scumbuddy play.

Boon I'm ignoring for now. I might look more at him later.

Also ignoring dragonspawn for now.

Gray seems like he was decently committed to the bulb push for a while.

Bleh. This is feeling less productive as i go on.

Khan's actions towards bulb could easily be scum->scum. Early weak scum read, calling him vaguely suspicious.

pisskop's vote could also easily be a bus. It was an initially very tepid vote that he never really strongly committed to, the kind of thing that also could have been a sort of kick to try to get bulb to start playing better.

Dom i can see either way.

Woody idk.

For now, I'm actually going to try this and see what happens.

Unvote

VOTE: pisskop

[implosion]

I'm not particularly opposed to a Khan lynch.

[implosion]

Long day, might post later, might not.

[implosion]

Really fucking tired, but alas.

@kk: yes, my spicer vote was based entirely on NE.

I think gray is town. I think the way he's insisting that he's obvtown is townish. I don't think he'd bus bulb and then have the same degree of arrogant insistence that it makes him clearly town as scum. His arrogance over his own alignment feels genuine to me.

I feel like a hipster when it comes to KK. I kept trying to tell everyone to stop when they were calling him obvtown, and then when there were some things that made me say "yeah, i can see kk town" he got wagoned. And now the wagon is dissolving (or at least it's not the leading wagon anymore) and I think I want to vote him. I don't think I like the way he's interacting with grayfox. Things like 1230 and the last line of 1368 feel like they're making an awkward jump from grayfox's behavior being illogical or overreactive to grayfox being scum.

I don't feel super strong about that but I don't have the energy to read everything closely right now. I actually feel decently confident about grayfox town, though. And 1191 does also give me reservations about KK scum but I think I can see him making that post as scum especially if the game is dragging on from the perspective of kk-scum which could be true if his partner is someone like the woody slot.

I wanna hear more thoughts from anna about kk/how strongly she feels he's town.

[implosion]

@Anna

piss I still have sort of as gut town but I am by no means sold on that read.
Dom I need to look in to more. I don't remember well why I had that slot as town, and atm without looking much I can see it as scum.
The woody slot I can see as scum at this point. I thought woody's play was town of course but I've seen too many people that have given me townreads since then/the read has faded/there's a good chance that a lot of it was moreso a playstyle thing/I haven't yet looked into him vis a vis bulb in depth, iirc (I might have done this but just be forgetting but i don't think so).

In terms of team associations I'm not a big fan of hunting for them between people that are alive (unless it's something like 5 players left with 2 scum). I can speculate if you want though. But that'd be later when I'm not at work.

[implosion]

implosion is most suspicious at the moment. He's not asking any questions or doing any sort of scum-hunting. He's just stating vague wishy-washy feelings (check out 1153) and just seems to be idling in neutral and waiting for the day to pass. He's also currently voting for pisskop, whom he recently called a gut town read.

Yep. Had a pretty draining week at work (and I've also been absorbed in SGDQ). Haven't been able to do as much as I'd like to. As for reads being wishy-washy, that usually happens for me. You can look into meta if you don't believe me. I relatively rarely have a high degree of confidence in reads except for some number of townreads.

I'll post significant content later today, possibly fairly soon.

[implosion]

Here's where I am at right now.

{dragonspawn, GrayFoxxx, Annarchy} are people that I don't really think I want to look into more right now.
Boonskiies is probably the next towniest in my mind but I do think I need to look at him more closely. I remember reading that Khan said he thought boon was town because he would have bussed bulb harder and at the time i was like "yeah, that's pretty decent" but it isn't a guaranteed kind of thing. But I still don't think I have any desire to look closer at Boon today.

That leaves:
spicer1209
pisskop
TheDominator37
Kublai Khan
WoodyWoodpecker

effectively this is a list of directions that I'm willing to look at right now. Of course I have reasons to think that each of these people is town because that's just how my reads typically work. So I'm by and large trying to figure out which of those reasons is the weakest. This is also why this comment from Khan is somewhat irrelevant:

He's also currently voting for pisskop, whom he recently called a gut town read.

Because, more or less, I have some degree of townread on everyone alive.

Woody is also just on hold until the replacement comes, which is unfortunate.

Spicer and pisskop reads both come largely from conventional gut towntells. I mentioned the posts from pisskop that felt townish. But I think that is relatively speaking one of my weakest reasonings for townreading. There are also some reasons to see him as scum (bulb largely ignored him, his vote felt somewhat like a bus). I guess that's why my vote is on pisskop right now. I think he has some of my weakest reasons to see as town.

I also explained the spicer read. His posting since then is pretty straightforward. The squabble with gray feels somewhat genuine, and I think the reasons I mentioned earlier are a bit stronger than those with regards to pisskop.

Dom I don't think bulb was bussing, probably. The way he gave early and consistent pressure largely guided by meta feels more likely to come from scum trying to misuse meta than scum trying to use accurate meta to bus.

KK I elaborated on recently.

I think my top two right now are KK and pisskop, after looking over everything again, with the Woody slot also needing more investigation when possible.

If someone wants to discuss either of those reads (or any others), today/tomorrow are probably best because next week will likely also be pretty tiring. After that I should (probably) have more energy.

[implosion]

Have there been any claims? Anything known/speculated on the setup?

Nope. Although I did actually mean to ask this.

Mod

: can we get a full flip for Bulb (i.e., what 'watcher variant' means)?

As of right now I would be absolutely SHOCKED if Dom wasnt scum. In fact Im going to double check ISO's and give you guys a case here pretty soon. Petty much i thought the Mario slot was scummy and Dom hasnt really helped anything. Ill go into detail more about it once I get my thoughts organized

What's your opinion on bulb's mario push? Does it deter this read at all, or can you see it as a bus?

[implosion]

Scum was lynched D1. It seems likely that scum can be found in people:

- who were NOT on the scum D1 wagon, and
- who ARE on the main D2 wagon.

Why? In particular what precludes the main d2 wagon from being on scum a priori, as you seem to be implying here?

[implosion]

Why? In particular what precludes the main d2 wagon from being on scum a priori, as you seem to be implying here?

I'm assuming that you guys aren't good enough to hit scum two days in a row.

That's... a strange assumption.

Why under that assumption should we try to hit scum at all? What will make the next wagon any better than this one? By this logic any wagon that coalesces will suddenly become a bad wagon because we aren't good enough to have the main d2 wagon be on scum... unless you're saying that *we* aren't good enough to hit scum, but *you* are, which would be... offputting.

It's not like there is a single main d2 wagon. The main wagon was KK. Then it switched to Grayfox. Are both of them automatically town? Does anyone who wasn't on both of those wagons automatically get town points? In particular, spicer was never on the KK wagon, which was at the time the main wagon. Should I be townreading spicer because of that?

[implosion]

Also even if you are assuming that we aren't good enough to hit scum two days in a row, why does that mean that scum are on the main wagon? Why can't the main wagon be a town-led mislynch?

[implosion]

If you don't like it, lynch me for not putting a bunch of maybe's and possibly's in my explanation.

:S. Who's talking about lynching you? I'm grateful for you replacing in, and I appreciate the honesty, I just want to question assumptions in general.

With regards to spicer: believe me I want to be convinced that he's scum because I agree with you that NE was scummy as all hell (and I was basically the only person pushing him d1). Probably the single biggest thing that holds me back from a scumread on him is the third paragraph of 1089, where he tries to paint FA and Shazam as what I suspect are the opposite of what happened. Although actually, thinking about it again that might not be as big of a towntell as I thought if he was still catching up and wasn't yet aware of the amount of suspicion that FA had garnered on day one. As I've mentioned, I also found his interactions with Gray to be townish.

[implosion]

I feel the tension, in my plums.

I hate it when my fruit gets tense.

[implosion]

spicer, the thing that gives me pause on dom-scum isn't dom's behavior towards bulb, it's bulb's behavior towards dom/mario. Can you comment on that?

[implosion]

spicer, the thing that gives me pause on dom-scum isn't dom's behavior towards bulb, it's bulb's behavior towards dom/mario. Can you comment on that?

I'd still like this from spicer.

Not much else to say atm. Gray should join Anna and I since he's been so consistent in his pisskop suspicion (even if it's for very different reasons). It's starting to get relatively close to the end of the day, activity is sort of slowing, and no one has more than 2 votes.

I think I would somewhat rather lynch Khan atm but that's somewhat of a whim and I don't think there's enough sentiment to make him a viable lynch right now. If a wagon (read: another vote besides gray) developed on him I would join.

[implosion]

Also because a wagon with me + Anna/Gray would make me feel good since as I mentioned they're both in my top tier of townreads.

[implosion]

Lol the variance is legit.

Why aren't you switching to pisskop?

[implosion]

If there's a KK wagon in the works then I am most certainly in.

VOTE: KK

[implosion]

IMp explain

I've been willing to vote either KK/pisskop and wanting a wagon for a while.

Oh, I will. I'd prefer a Grayfoxx one, though. So I'd rather stay on him and let you guys join it when you change your mind. And at this moment, KK and GF have similar votes on them. Either way, I'm satisfied. These were the two ones I really wanted to lynch today.

So Boon actually thinks I started the wagon

on BOTH my scum partners.

Pls boon don't do dis.

This is why GF is scum. He's slipping. It's the subtle wording, and this is in fact a slip. After I die toNight, lynch this.

I actually have no idea whatsoever why you think this is a slip. Because he sarcastically mentioned his "partners"? Do you know what sarcasm is? A slip is something that town couldn't possibly have said.

[implosion]

Also re: KK's willingness to be lynched, eh. It still dissuades me a bit but not enough.

[implosion]

I actually have no idea whatsoever why you think this is a slip. Because he sarcastically mentioned his "partners"? Do you know what sarcasm is? A slip is something that town couldn't possibly have said.

I guess we'll come back to this post game then...

Sure, I guess? Even in the event that Gray is scum that is not a scumslip.

[implosion]

Boon voting KK kinda makes that a long shot. Still possible

If anything it makes that team more likely, given Boon's stated buslust.

[implosion]

I honestly really do agree that GF just feels obvtown. Idk. I'm a bit surprised he's so contentious. Especially with both sides seeming so confident.

[implosion]

Also pisskop's play the past several pages has been very thoroughly meh. He's been consistently posting but has given really no strong opinions, just that he thinks KK probably isn't scum, he could see boon as scum, etc. Very noncommittal for this point in the day, especially in light of people committing to various stances all around him.

[implosion]

if nothing else, I REALLY don't think KK would stoop low enough to push for his own lynch to gain town cred as scum. it's WIFOMy, but seriously.

The way that I'm justifying it as a possibility in my head is that he might be scum who thinks that winning is hopeless and is trying to make some kind of last stand or has given up.

Or scum who thinks that he personally is just too much suspected to survive to endgame and is trying last-ditch to turn that around.

[implosion]

But that's moot now that he's selfhammered (I think?)

[implosion]

If its gray or kk Ill take gray. I agree with above, and I think titus is a decent place to look at tomorrow.

vote: gray

pedit: above being Anna. A listmod trying to gambit like this? Low blow

Listmod or not, a player is a player. If he's scum, scum is scum. Scum should take low blows if they are successful. Not doing so would be not trying their hardest to win, and I don't see any dishonor or anything like that in taking a tact like that as scum.

Of course in this case if he is scum it isn't working.

[implosion]

I wouldn't call making plays like that burning bridges. I don't think you should adapt your scum play for the sake of making your life as town better; you ought to just do whatever it takes to win as both.

If you don't want to make moves like fake-giving up as scum then I also am fine with that, I just don't think you ought to fault a player who does that as scum. Altering your play as scum for the sake of meta is not playing to win, hence why trust tells were banned sitewide. If you go out of your way to establish a meta of "I may give up as town, but I'll never give up as scum" then that's tantamount to a trust tell. Even if you don't go out of your way for that, if you do establish a meta like that I feel like you give yourself an obligation to break it so as to play to your win condition.

[implosion]

Well my two strongest townreads dying sucks.

My top scumread at this point is probably pisskop.

It isn't lylo. But we should probably massclaim.

Implosion hasn't implied anything

...what? Do you mean I haven't given you any indication of who my reads are going to be today? Because I don't know why that's a scumtell. If I were doing that I could just as easily be accused of setting up mislynches. My reads have been in flux for a long time... except pretty much for town reads on anna and gf :/

I'll look more at stuff after TI5.

[implosion]

how the hell is that a townslip, especially when both major wagons were on town?

[implosion]

Everyone:

Thoughts on massclaiming?

[implosion]

!!!! THAT'S WHY TITUS CHOSE TO KILL ANNA!!!!! BECAUSE ANNA HARD TOWN READ ME!!!!

Not everything revolves around you... she was probably killed because she was pretty much receiving the least pressure out of anyone. Her reads might have been accurate but she makes sense as a kill either way.

It is true that we had an investigative role flipped already. There are benefits and harms to massclaiming now. The harm is obviously that PRs are outed, and scum will be able to kill them. The benefit is that we get a sense of direction (assuming we get a vig claim and at least one other PR claim, which we should), and that we avoid having scum try to weasel into a late PR claim (which isn't actually a particularly big benefit but still).

I think that former benefit outweighs the harm. This town is going in literally every direction possible. There are single votes for me, dom, titus, and boon. My top fos is pisskop. That's 5 different primary fosses out of 7 people without even looking at the other two. We might as well be in RVS. We need more information.

[implosion]

Boon if you are actually town you are acting immeasurably stupidly right now. If spicer is a town gunsmith he has absolutely every reason to want to lynch you right now even with your claim.

And don't give the bullshit of "i wouldn't claim backup-1-shot-vig." You know that's bullshit. That's pretty much the only thing that scum-you could conceivably claim in this situation because if you claim not-a-gun then everyone's going to suspect you over spicer.

[implosion]

back up 1-shot vig. It's why I was picking up on the vig so easily.

This... also isn't how anything works... being a backup vig does not make it easier to find the actual vig that everyone knew existed.

[implosion]

I really really doubt both are scum.

And even if they both are then we've won, more or less? If boon flipped scum today, then Spicer would have to kill dragonspawn or dom (who are both more or less cleared) and he would have to clear another person, which would leave him in an almost mathematically unwinnable situation if we have ANY more power roles, which we would because rolecop + 2 shot vig is not enough power.

[implosion]

Don't worry spicer, I almost certainly will, I'm just in no rush.

[implosion]

I really really doubt both are scum.

And even if they both are then we've won, more or less? If boon flipped scum today, then Spicer would have to kill dragonspawn or dom (who are both more or less cleared) and he would have to clear another person, which would leave him in an almost mathematically unwinnable situation if we have ANY more power roles, which we would because rolecop + 2 shot vig is not enough power.

Boon flips scum, he kills dragon or dom. He clears someone else. We're in mylo. I'm presuming Dom. He claims his clear flipped during the night and was whoever Dom shot. Magically he doesn't have to clear anyone.

That isn't mylo, we'd still have one ML.

[implosion]

Also, why the hell would I claim back up 1 shot vig as scum. That's a horrible claim.

Because its the only thing you CAN claim. The vig came out so you cant claim vig and what other town role other than cop has a gun. You had to claim something. Its a horrible claim but its all you have. You cant weasel your way out of this.

Ill break it down like this.

You can believe Boon's claim about how he is the 1 shot back up vig, I am the scum gunsmith, and that the scum has all these investigative roles. We lynch me today and I flip town and at night another townie dies putting us in a 3 town 2 scum situation

or

You can believe that I am the Town gunsmith and got a 100% factual read on Boon that he has a gun after which I waited to reveal after the vig came out. We lynch Boon and he flips town and at night another townie dies putting us in a 3 town 2 scum situation.

Those right there are the two worst case scenarios. Now under which situation would you rather be in a 3-2 LYLO? The one where you believed a result in which even the person who was investigated says is true. Or the situation where you believed the person in question is a back up one shot vig and the person getting the results is the second investigative role on the scum team.

That's not the only role he could have claimed with a gun. Just saying.

What else could he have reasonably claimed?

[implosion]

Nvm what I said at the start of the day. VOTE: spicer

why

[implosion]

I'm not voting spicer. I believe the claim.

I haven't decided about boon though. If he was faking he could have faked a better role and maybe gotten someone to out themselves with a counter claim.

Going to have to reread everything before making a final determination.

WHAT. BETTER. ROLE. answer my question.

[implosion]

@Implosion - you've wanted that slot lynched literally the entire game, what the fuck changed now? The claims? That's fucking nothing. MAFIA GUNSMITH IS A FUCKING THING AND ISN'T THAT UNCOMMON.

Have you read literally a single post from me since spicer started actually providing content

[implosion]

I really fucking want to pull out my intestines over this right now

because my gut is actually telling me now that spicer is more likely scum than boon and I really don't like that.

I have a bullshit theory. That theory is that spicer is scum, and the mafia consist of bulb + spicer-gunsmith + x-doctor. Why would that make sense? Two reasons. One, the scum having a doctor seems likely in the event that boon is town. Two, more irrespective of boon's alignment: bulb's role. It's a weird role, isn't it? It's very unique but it doesn't really add anything to the game in particular... unless... both other scum have power roles. If all three scum have night actions, then melding the watcher action into the scum's kill allows them to do all three at once.

That theory has one gaping hole in it and that hole has an easy fix.

The hole is that it would require a massive amount of town power, which hasn't been claimed (2-shot vig + 1-shot backup vig + rolecop is not nearly enough).
The fix is a full massclaim.

I want a full massclaim. There aren't many downsides any more, a lot of information has been revealed already, plenty enough for the scum to make an informed nightkill.

Can we please full massclaim?

[implosion]

like essentially i think we need to setup spec hard right now and I don't think we can do enough without a full massclaim.

[implosion]

Nvm what I said at the start of the day. VOTE: spicer

I assume Titus was referring to this, which was ambiguous.

[implosion]

I feel like no one but spicer and boon is actually trying in this game anymore.

Which I guess is partially a matter of who died last night.

But seriously this game feels pretty hopeless with no one but me and two people at each others' throats trying. Titus is also kind of on the cusp of doing things but it seems like she's mostly just tunneling. Obviously her most recent post mitigates that and I have high hopes since she's still a fairly fresh replace-in.

pisskop has given literally zero opinions today. He's asked like a question and given some IIoA. Nothing else.
Dragon has kind of done things but i'm pretty sure he's just resting on the laurel of his ages-old never-had-any-good-reason scumread on me.
Dom's doing nothing. Fossed me, completely ignored my question to him, fossed spicer with literally 0 reasons.

I'm almost resigned to losing this game if those three refuse to do anything at all of any use.

[implosion]

More importantly though.

EVERYONE

:
In light of 1803, are you okay with a massclaim?

No need to respond if you've already said so. And if no, why?

[implosion]

Why are you so eager for a mass claim?

Please.

Actually read the post that I specifically linked to before asking this.

I'll list the reasons (and even some new ones) again just because:

1) We need to see how much town power is claimed in order to be able to accurately judge spicer and Boon's claims.
2) The mafia already have plenty of great nightkill targets (spicer if he's town, dom since he's clear, dragon since he's pseudo-clear), so there's a minimal downside of giving scum extra info.
3) Half the player list either is either refusing to give opinions on players today (pisskop) or refusing to justify those opinions (dragonspawn, dom) so we need an injection of information. It's honestly fucking impossible to scumhunt outside of spicer/boon apart from just reading and re-reading and re-reading which is a massive problem.
4) Additional power role claimants, if any, will give us additional information if we want to lynch outside of spicer/boon (which I am leaning ever so slightly towards right now). If there are none then we get the information that boon and spicer are likely both town because I doubt that gunsmith+rolecop+2-shot vig is nearly enough power to offset a scumteam with a watcher and likely at least one other role due to the nature of the watcher.
5) More personally, I feel pretty lost in light of the two claims that have been made without any additional information. I just don't know where to go that solidly because there are so many unknowns and focusing on the knowns might be wrong.

Desperate is a very accurate word. I am desperate for a massclaim. I feel very little solid way forward without one.

[implosion]

Massclaiming to sit around speculating? no thanks.

why is it so absolute? this isnt a 1v1 situation.

boons errattic posting is noteable. Does he do that as scum?

VOTE: DOM

Let's start here because I think this is an obvious place to begin

You've come out of the gate charging for a vig claim.

Maybe tomorrow imp

You defending Kk when he was at l-1.

But why did you claim after trying to avoid it and and how is that a townslip?

We didn't. But this takes Dom off the table for good.

This means that scum shot Anna and FA.

This is LITERALLY everything pisskop has posted today (reverse order because that's how multiquote put them and I don't feel like swapping it). In order:

-A non-player-specific opinion with almost no analysis (which was asked for, but is as close to unproductive as he can possibly be without being unproductive)
-A weak question with no followup.
-A random fact with no analysis attached.
-Another weak question with no followup.
-Statements of obvious facts.

This makes me scream IIoA. And there has been so much that has happened in the past two days. It's absolutely astonishing that pisskop has managed to post throughout these past two days and give no opinion on boon, no opinion on spicer, no new opinion or original analysis or even commentary on others' analysis whatsoever.

[implosion]

I call pisskop out for giving no opinions.

In response, he continues to give no information whatsoever, saying he has no idea about either of the people who have provided a massive amount of useful content today, and then says he wants to join the bandwagon on me in pretty much the epitome of opportunism.

And he claimed, out of nowhere... after saying he opposed massclaiming.

Do other people see this or am I crazy? pisskop's play today looks like really, really obvious scum.

I'm also VT, incidentally. Which leaves only... dragonspawn, and no one else.

[implosion]

It leaves pretty strong odds of boon + spicer both town.

[implosion]

And above all spicer is deeeefinitely town unless somehow it's a 2:11 and odds of that seem nominal to me. I suppose it's also possible that dom is an sk but that seems relatively unlikely. Actually it's impossible unless boon is scum of course and if that's the case then lol because there's no way that all we have is a rolecop and a gunsmith.

Our claimed town power is a rolecop (weak investigative), a gunsmith (strong investigative but weakened especially if we have two false positives and possibly false negatives), a 2-shot vig (medium-strength killing), and a 1-shot backup vig. Balance wise I think odds are pretty strong that boon is town. Which means that I think we should be focusing in the VT claims. dragon should be ignored at least today because of the spicer clear (I also do think he's town irrespective of that). That leaves me in a position of thinking that the scumteam is probably pisskop + Titus by PoE, which seems reasonable to me.

[implosion]

So. To sum this up.

Boon needs to stop having even the slightest suspicion that Spicer is scum because he isn't. This goes for everyone else too.

IMO, although this is *slightly* open to debate, I think boon is off the table entirely for balance reasons.

PLEASE, PLEASE dragonspawn and Dom, actually put some effort into looking at my posting. And also pisskop's and Titus's. I've basically been pushing for this massclaim because I realized it would break the game open, and it has. From my point of view this game has gone from an enigma to i would say around 75/25 odds of the scumteam being a particular pair of people.

Boon has already said he thinks I'm town because of bulb so as soon as he realizes he can't push Spicer (which I'm guessing he will agree with since he said he's in to setup spec), I presume he'll vote either of Titus/pisskop, additionally given that they along with spicer were his top three scumpicks in his most recent reads list.

Spicer is doing shit so I'm not worried about him.

But Dom/dragon. Please. For the love of god. Actually interact with me. I feel like you've both been very obstinate this game, especially dragon who explicitly refused to interact with me on day one. And realize how suicidal what I'm doing right now is if I'm scum. I'm (almost, but not quite) willing to say that this game will end pretty confidently in a town win from an objective standpoint if we spend the next three days lynching pisskop, Titus, and myself.

[implosion]

@Implosion, I like your analysis but I know there has to be a flaw somewhere because I'm town.

A big concern I saw when looking at your posts though. Spicer votes Dom as a "good place to start" when he has a "guilty" on Boonskiies?

This is for him to answer but he was pushing for a vig claim at the time, presumably so that he could come out with the guilty report more confidently.

I don't care a whole ton what his answer is. Rolecop/2shotvig/1shotbackupvig is not balanced no matter what the scumteam is, especially if it has a gunsmith on it.

[implosion]

meh...I have paranoia of a Mafia Doctor/traitor. They show up as town to gunsmiths. If spicer is town, that means that the town gunsmith role is almost being used as a way to weaken town even more. I'm going to take a look at the Day 1 wagons again.

This is a better kind of paranoia to have.

I am also paranoid of this but I happen to think dragonspawn is town for other reasons as well (largely the townslip).

[implosion]

@Implosion,

What happens if you suppose both spicer and boon are scum?

Then I quickly realize the absurdity of a 3v10 setup containing only two weak town power roles and at least one moderately strong scum power role.

I looked a bit at some recent completed mini normals and thought a bit and I can see the possibility of boon as scum setup-wise. But there is no way in hell that both boon and spicer are scum unless a townie is lying.

Regardless of whether or not boon or Titus is scum,

VOTE: pisskop

Pretty damn sure he is.

[implosion]

Yeah the more boon refuses to acknowledge that spicer is 99% town the more he's digging his grave, IMO.

[implosion]

I still prefer to lynch pisskop first though.

[implosion]

God the contrast between 1878 and 1880.

One coming from town who is genuinely angry at the fact that what is obvious to them is not seen as obvious to everyone, and the other coming from pisskop.

[implosion]

He says lynching him is a shitty copout literally without responding to a single thing.

This is scum giving up. This is not how town gives up. What spicer is doing is how town starts to give up. pisskop is scum giving up.

[implosion]

If you completely sidestep multiple large posts of evidence against you and then call me a bully for pushing for your lynch... if you're town then I don't even know anymore :/

[implosion]

Also pisskop's play the past several pages has been very thoroughly meh. He's been consistently posting but has given really no strong opinions, just that he thinks KK probably isn't scum, he could see boon as scum, etc. Very noncommittal for this point in the day, especially in light of people committing to various stances all around him.

I feel like no one but spicer and boon is actually trying in this game anymore.

Which I guess is partially a matter of who died last night.

But seriously this game feels pretty hopeless with no one but me and two people at each others' throats trying. Titus is also kind of on the cusp of doing things but it seems like she's mostly just tunneling. Obviously her most recent post mitigates that and I have high hopes since she's still a fairly fresh replace-in.

pisskop has given literally zero opinions today. He's asked like a question and given some IIoA. Nothing else.
Dragon has kind of done things but i'm pretty sure he's just resting on the laurel of his ages-old never-had-any-good-reason scumread on me.
Dom's doing nothing. Fossed me, completely ignored my question to him, fossed spicer with literally 0 reasons.

I'm almost resigned to losing this game if those three refuse to do anything at all of any use.

Massclaiming to sit around speculating? no thanks.

why is it so absolute? this isnt a 1v1 situation.

boons errattic posting is noteable. Does he do that as scum?

VOTE: DOM

Let's start here because I think this is an obvious place to begin

You've come out of the gate charging for a vig claim.

Maybe tomorrow imp

You defending Kk when he was at l-1.

But why did you claim after trying to avoid it and and how is that a townslip?

We didn't. But this takes Dom off the table for good.

This means that scum shot Anna and FA.

This is LITERALLY everything pisskop has posted today (reverse order because that's how multiquote put them and I don't feel like swapping it). In order:

-A non-player-specific opinion with almost no analysis (which was asked for, but is as close to unproductive as he can possibly be without being unproductive)
-A weak question with no followup.
-A random fact with no analysis attached.
-Another weak question with no followup.
-Statements of obvious facts.

This makes me scream IIoA. And there has been so much that has happened in the past two days. It's absolutely astonishing that pisskop has managed to post throughout these past two days and give no opinion on boon, no opinion on spicer, no new opinion or original analysis or even commentary on others' analysis whatsoever.

I call pisskop out for giving no opinions.

In response, he continues to give no information whatsoever, saying he has no idea about either of the people who have provided a massive amount of useful content today, and then says he wants to join the bandwagon on me in pretty much the epitome of opportunism.

And he claimed, out of nowhere... after saying he opposed massclaiming.

Do other people see this or am I crazy? pisskop's play today looks like really, really obvious scum.

I'm also VT, incidentally. Which leaves only... dragonspawn, and no one else.

He says lynching him is a shitty copout literally without responding to a single thing.

This is scum giving up. This is not how town gives up. What spicer is doing is how town starts to give up. pisskop is scum giving up.

Yep, "not posting" is totally my only reason for wanting to lynch pisskop

[implosion]

or even my foremost reason
or even a reason I mentioned at all
(hint: those lines are sarcasm)
For emphasis:

[quote=I]He's been consistently posting but has given really no strong opinions[/quote]

[implosion]

Derp.

[implosion]

Actually that isn't the only time that I said it.

He's

been consistently posting

but has given really no strong opinions

pisskop has given literally zero opinions today.

It's absolutely astonishing that pisskop

has managed to post throughout these past two days

and give no opinion on boon, no opinion on spicer, no new opinion or original analysis or even commentary on others' analysis whatsoever.

how pisskop manages to twist this into my primary point being "not posting" is beyond me

[implosion]

spicer I can be convinced to vote boon over pisskop potentially but 1918 is not how. Your gun result is completely meaningless; what is meaningful is his claim in light of that result.

I am pretty damn convinced that pisskop is scum. In a world where he's town the by far next likeliest scumteam I see is titus+boon and I have trouble imagining a world where woody and boon were both scum. I do want to lynch boon tomorrow if pisskop flips scum (assuming you die at night). But for now I feel more strongly about pisskop.

Again you might be able to change that but just citing your result after he's claimed a role with a gun doesn't imply anything.

[implosion]

Hey guys!!

So my thoughts right now are to lynch dragonspawn. Based on what vid read from reading their posts.

Boon and implosion both probably town.

Unsure of Titus.

Nah. Dragonspawn is ostensibly cleared unless the scum have two doctors. Spicer had a no-gun result on him.

The lynch today should probably be boon. Maaaybe titus.

[implosion]

How much/what parts of the game have you read, if any, fire?

[implosion]

For the record, I sent my night action in last night. I targeted Spicer...>.>

Erm.

What?

[implosion]

ITT boon does not know what backup means and tries to fakeclaim it anyway

[implosion]

And then tries to publicly ask the mod a question about his claimed role? :S

[implosion]

Backup roles are typically linked with a primary role, and don't get to use their action until an/the active role of the same name dies.

So boon, please explain to me why you didn't just scumslip.

[implosion]

And having misunderstood what backup means in normal games does not mean your claim did not seem safe to you at the time.

And shooting spicer here as a vig would be so horrendously awful play if you were town

And the mod would have told you that you weren't actually able to use your action, so you wouldn't actually be confused here as town

VOTE: boon

[implosion]

"Lynch me, i'm a liability. vote: other person"

[implosion]

in particular he votes another person in such a way that dragon could easily just hammer

he's desperate scum looking for any out

[implosion]

Hold on, I know I've seen that version of the role somewhere...which is why I was assuming.

Exactly.

You're scum.

If you were town, you'd have a role pm that you would have read. You wouldn't need to assume how your own role works.

But you're scum.

[implosion]

I read it carefully once.

Which is enough.

If the only way you could possibly be town is to have severely misread your role pm, then in the astronomically unlikely event that you are town you deserve to be lynched.

[implosion]

The comment about the vote was just noticing a strange juxtaposition.

[implosion]

Unvote

I'm going to look at this/think about it more later, it's late. I was thinking about balance a bit earlier and the doctor flip does make boon more likely town and as much as I do just want to powerlynch boon for the stuff today I'm going to think it over more seriously.

That's also in response to dragonspawn. If anything the flip makes boon more likely town. So I need to weigh some things when I'm more awake.

[implosion]

So the mafia power is doctor + automatic watcher + (goon?)

The town power is 2-shot vig + rolecop + gunsmith + (1-shot backup vig?)

gunsmith is weakened since it can get false positive(s) and at least one false negative (probably only one)
rolecop is strengthened because if it hits the watcher it gets an automatic guilty because of the nature of the watcher

Balance ultimately makes a lot more sense if boon is telling the truth unless scum have some kind of massive negative utility role left, but the not-explicitly-normal role is already known in bulb. I think I usually have a tendency to view setups as more scumsided than the balance group does in general but I don't think that having 3 not-that-great and not-that-synergistic power roles is enough against a scumteam with two very strong power roles.

I'm gonna iso pisskop.

[implosion]

I kind of hope that boon is scum because if he is i bet spicer is raging really hard right now in the dead thread and that would be amusing~

pisskop doesn't make me think a whole lot of anything. Parts of my gut say scum is going to be found in Titus. But ultimately I think a full look at the evidence makes boon probably scum.

The claim screwup today is kind of unforgivable from a scumhunting perspective. If people are going to jump on bulb d1 for saying "every night" and then switching to describing himself as 1-shot then we should jump on boon for claiming he sent in a kill last night as a role that would have no kill (yet). It's similar. Bulb's had some ambiguity because his diction was generally ambiguous as a whole. This has some ambiguity because theoretically boon could have misread his role pm. But if he sent a kill in last night as a role with no kill he would have been told that he had no kill.

I think boon should die before titus. Setup spec is fallible because there are always unknowns. Besides, 1-shot backup vig is an extremely weak role; it can possibly confirm its existence and get a single kill, or possibly do nothing. Swapping it in for a VT doesn't change setup balance all that much. There also is always the possibility that my sense of balance is right and that boon has some kind of negative utility role, like a doctor enabler or something like that.

VOTE: Boonskiies

[implosion]

If dragon/fire are willing to accept me as town then we'll win regardless.

But I would rather just win now.

[implosion]

Why the hell didn't you guys lynch me yesterday? haha.

Because pisskop was more obvious and I am way too vulnerable to AtE <_<

[implosion]

I mean, because pisskop was obviously the doctor, so i wanted to get rid of the power role

[implosion]

God i hope spicer was active in the dead thread.

[implosion]

dude
it isn't a problem that boon died after a different member of the mafia >_>
I mean part of boon not dying is also my own being too chicken to make a call, but that being chicken was mostly a result of just being wholeheartedly convinced that pisskop was scum

[implosion]

And nah, he said he killed anna over you, killing you would have been better although they didn't know that since they presumably had no way of knowing you were gunsmith.

Anna was a very good kill though. If it hadn't been for spicer's claim, as I mentioned, the anna+gf dying simultaneously kind of eliminated all of the solid ground that I had left to stand on.

[implosion]

And anna was pushing pisskop.

[implosion]

dude
it isn't a problem that boon died after a different member of the mafia >_>
I mean part of boon not dying is also my own being too chicken to make a call, but that being chicken was mostly a result of just being wholeheartedly convinced that pisskop was scum

It was the play style of those two that bugged me. It wasnt the outcome. Again dragonspawn not as bad but holy hell Dominator is garbage

Reasonable.

[implosion]

Yeah I played a terrible game. I was only involved with lynching all three scum.

Congrats you were at the tail end of ever lynch. Feel like you did something?

Also how did KK die? I thought he was obvitown and we got NOTHING out of it

See, this is a dumb way of thinking. He was obvitown to you but grayfox was obvitown to me and grayfox was the other lynch candidate. I could complain that gf never should have died and that would be a subjective opinion. This would be a legitimate complaint if you had been pushing scum. But you weren't.

It's not like the khan lynch was some kind of abomination that never should have happened. It's not like the same would be true if grayfox had been lynched. People make mistakes. Some things are more obvious to some people than to others. That's just how it goes.

[implosion]

Also:

@Firebringer: you were worthless in a sense but the game was basically over by the time you replaced in. And you made the right call on me being town which was all you ultimately would have needed to do to win if we hadn't lynched boon.

@dragonspawn: my issue with your play this game was that you were incredibly hard to work with, even when you became obviously town. On day one you tunneled me super hard and I tried to work with you and you refused to even consider that you could be wrong or even give a shred of reasoning. On day 3 your reasoning was also pretty opaque in general. Being on scum lynches or not, you need to work on having a more transparent thought process as town. If you hadn't townslipped you had a strong possibility of being lynched.

[implosion]

I am curious about one thing with regards to the setup - were you going for anything in particular with the way the watcher role worked?

[implosion]

The role cop could "clear" the doctor, but the watcher would have been an interesting find. As he would have to explaing what the variance was.

Role cops in normal games are supposed to get the entire role whoever they target, not just the name, if it's the non-explicitly-normal role.

Any new roles without a wiki page must flip with their Role PM (redactions permitted). A Rolecop investigation of the same role should be similar, without alignment.

I also enjoyed this game - modding was good, and the setup was interesting.

[implosion]

Funny you bring this up.. I forgot to mention. But no, role cops.. originally only got the roles, just like you're used to. The normal guidelines you quoted are new, and I was exempt from those. But guess who caused those rule changes? Again, if you want the drama, you should check out the review thread once its public.

Ha. That's pretty funny. Well good job pushing the boundaries . I always think trying to shake up the meta and do things that are unexpected within the bounds of normalcy is a good thing.

That line from the wiki was also why I was asking for a full flip on Bulb's role, because based on that line we should have gotten a full flip. Amusing that the reason that it's there is the very role that I wanted a full flip on.

They were ordered in the same way they are ordered in the playerslist.

This is also a good method.

[implosion]

Odds of rolecop + cop + gunsmith all town are nominal.

[implosion]

spicer handled his claim pretty well. The one thing he could have done differently is to push for a massclaim before outing his result in order to prevent this particular brand of shenanigans.