Secret Alt Mafia 2 – Game over!

[Greatvalue]

Nobody even answer, please.

[Greatvalue]

I'll give a few fake answers for the sake of discussion later. I just wanted to make my entrance on page 1 before I left.

Post edit: wow, you saw right through my façade. How insightful of you.

I don't want to narrow down alt possibilities. Maybe it'll help with scumhunting, sure, but I'm feeling stubborn and actually want to enjoy trying to work with the anonymity.

[Greatvalue]

You're both horrible with semicolons. Disgraceful.

[Greatvalue]

The only question that remotely narrowed down alt possibilities is the first question, and even that is worded vague enough to make alt guessing a challenge.

Giving fake answers is okay for the sake of discussion, but do note that there are consequences.

Answering any of those questions narrows down the field for possible mains severely, especially the second question due to how players might react to knowing or not knowing the names. I find it interesting, to say the least, that you think it's the first that's the most revealing. I don't think that was malicious, though.

I also find the questions as a whole pointless because everyone in this game has significant incentive to obscure their identity as cleverly as possible. So should people give you answers, there's a whole mess of WIFOM that isn't even alignment indicative anyway. I'd rather we all just saved time and ignored the questions instead of going through that whole song and dance.

Back to the second question: alternatively to having people try and possibly fail to cover up relations with the mentioned names, the last secret alt mafia game had experimental modifiers, but mostly normal roles. I actually don't think Quilford will have pushed the bar much with this setup this time either, because I think he respects the mechanic enough to not let much get in its way. (And that's all you'll get from me. Congratulations, you now know I'm somewhat familiar with the mod.)

But thank you for trying to call me out on this. It's a much more productive discussion than what you were originally going for.

[Greatvalue]

You're both horrible with semicolons. Disgraceful.

Incidentally, you also both read more or less the same to me. I'm really hoping that this isn't just due to the alt mechanic.

(Details withheld. Going to wait for more people to come in.)

[Greatvalue]

VOTE: Great Value

Serious vote.

You are dead to me.

[Greatvalue]

VOTE: You are dead to me

That's what I meant.

Discredit this as OMGUS if you want, but it's a horrible vote.

[Greatvalue]

Why is it horrible?

Because I'm calling out the BS early on, and choosing to put myself out there in doing so.

So if you're scum, that's the perfect opportunity to join the wagon with an easily faked scumread on me for "stifling discussion," when I've been completely upfront about how

yes

, that was obviously the intent.

And if you're town, you clearly haven't actually thought about it or even considered my points.

Why are you asking me if it's horrible?

[Greatvalue]

You should suggest better ones then, instead of proceeding to brainless and strictly inferior RVS.

There are no better ways to start the game. Your random questions are brainless and strictly inferior as any RQS and RVS as your questions does nothing to help progress the game.

But how about to garner reaction? Well, that's what the brainless and strictly inferior RVS does too.

By the way, I'm more surprised that you expected nothing but a "RQS is bad" given that's what happens if you decide to RQS in this site.

I wouldn't categorize his questions as random or brainless (a word which you used twice!) at all; RQS has the word random in it, but it only applies to 1, 2, and 4 in the sense that they're questions intended to start discussion.

Did you even read them thoroughly before choosing that stance? In any other scenario they're decent at worst. It just looks like you're trying to buddy up to me with the Shiba criticism, the Yadtm vote, and that townread on me since I've already established myself in an active town role.

VOTE: Dimitri

Serious vote. Take note, Yadtm.

(Also, I'll note how rejecting the RQS post led Dimitri to reveal he's familiar with RQS attempts here anyway. Which isn't too uncommon, but it's pretty funny to me.)

[Greatvalue]

Not afraid to his vote being viewed as OMGUS as a pretty good early indicator of town.

This is a really weak cop out.

[Greatvalue]

Also, I thought secret Alt mafia was finally a chance to choose a name that isn't obnoxious. It seems not many took that opportunity.

"Natural Aristocracy"

[Greatvalue]

Also, I thought secret Alt mafia was finally a chance to choose a name that isn't obnoxious. It seems not many took that opportunity.

"Natural Aristocracy"

Since I assume you'll want me to comment on the rest of your post: clumsy start, strong finish.

[Greatvalue]

I haven't posted in thread in 2 days. D:

...and that's a lot of pages. So I am going to beg off for now and finally catch some sleep.

I wonder how mad this post is going to make some people. There's an exciting thought.

[Greatvalue]

Checking in. I plan on catching up on what I've missed tomorrow night after [insert one of work or school here]. Bye...

[Greatvalue]

...Not looking forward to having to try and read Concorde. I always seem to get that one wrong.

Besides that moment of revelation, I haven't yet looked into anything. If anyone has suggestions on where to start, I'm all ears. I don't really have anyone I feel comfortable playing off of right now, so I'm feeling a bit lost.

[Greatvalue]

There's nothing Concorde has posted that indicates them being scum this game, but I'd still like to exercise caution. Right now I have limited town reads, but I would like to aim for accuracy in those rather than unreliable blanket reads.

On a related note, part of the reason for my limited reads right now is because this week has been particularly hard on my free time. The madness ends tomorrow or the day after, so at that point I'll skim the middle section of pages I've missed and consolidate my reads. I'm aware of the deadline (about 3 days last time I checked), so I'll speed it along as I can.

[Greatvalue]

...Not looking forward to having to try and read Concorde. I always seem to get that one wrong.

Besides that moment of revelation, I haven't yet looked into anything. If anyone has suggestions on where to start, I'm all ears. I don't really have anyone I feel comfortable playing off of right now, so I'm feeling a bit lost.

So, the only thing you've done is alt hunt? In a game designed not to have identities as a crutch.

Why don't you try actually finding scum "active town role"?

I'll take a second to respond to this - I mentioned at the start of the game that I'd like to stay true to the special mechanic. But reading your posts as I slowly started to try and keep up with the game again, it just hit me and felt so extremely obvious that I couldn't see you being anyone else. Does that make sense?

I was active in a beginning when I had time, but I've been hit with sudden... complications (which I need to get back to right away, but I can spare a few more seconds to grace you with my holy super town presence). I'm trying not to sound petulant, but my schedule hasn't been the most flexible the past few days; the only reason I haven't replaced out is because I know I'm getting the time I need to engage in this game again very soon.

Until then,

Greatvalue
Active Town Role, Class of 2015

[Greatvalue]

UNVOTE: I meant to do that before the replacement. This is just because whoever it was that said I've been voteparking had a point, and inflating the wagon with no clear read on Dimitri anymore seems worse than sticking to it.

Noting other questions and putting them off until I return.

Until then,

Greatvalue
Active Town Role, Class of 2015

[Greatvalue]

VOTE: Cellphone This is where I want to be after comparing both of the main candidates' posts on this page. Cellphone's vote post looks a lot more scum motivated than anything Kumquat said here.

I think we have a day left too, so if you could all hold off on lynching for less than half that time for me to catch up after my duties, that would be great.

[Greatvalue]

Yes, 1 day and 5 hours just about right now.

[Greatvalue]

UNVOTE: Actually no, I'm not okay with limiting things to these two just yet.

Took a quick look at some more previous posts and I'm struck by the number of people expressing absolute certainty about one or both of Kumquat/Cell being scum in the last page and a half. I actually can't tell without more context if that's serious or if people are just trying to be cool and play up the magnitude of their personalities in an alt game. Either way, it's doing nothing for me but making me fear it's a toxic town/town split, especially considering how often I've seen this mistake popping up in divided towns lately.

Again, please hold with me. I know I've been absent, but the threat of speeding the lynch, especially Kumquat at L-1 at this junction is actually very frightening right now and I want to get the whole picture when I return in a few hours.

Please also allow Kumquat to return and post tomorrow as well. I'm saying this with the full knowledge that should they be quicklynched and flip scum it'll reflect badly on me, but right now I do want to hear them get it together.

Until very soon,

Greatvalue

[Greatvalue]

Shouldn't Dimitri's identity be revealed for replacing out?

I'll be back before deadline. For now, leaning towards a Cellphone lynch instead of the kumquat.

Although he hasn't done very good posting. It's downright terrible, and is the main reason why I am even considering hammering him. Considering.

This posts dispels any fears I had that Shiba's an experienced scum player trying to look inexperienced and town. This was my strongest town read earlier too, but any doubts are gone now.

very frightening right now

LOL

Maybe you can start by explaining what you find so townie about both these player slots that you'd want to defend them harder than they are defending themselves.

I am all ears.

I never exactly said that, though I see how it could be interpreted as such.

My main issue right now is that it feels as if way too many players look completely confident in one of these flipping scum. In my experience, that's never ended up well especially on Day 1, and that mentality seems stronger here that I've seen in a while. I know that's not exactly a compelling reason for them to be town, but getting to the players themselves-

I don't think there's anything town that Cellphone has posted.

On the other hand, I actually do think Kumquat's earlier selfvote and posts on this page, while illogical, do come from town. His above posts do give me a slight sense that he's town who now actually wants to play pro-town despite being in the L-2 or L-1 position.

Guilt.

Fixed it. Now I want to play. Not stupid, wouldn't self hammer as either alignment and also I would definitely check vote.

Lets play ball. Don't lynch me.

It's this post in particular that reads as town to me, especially the last two sentences. The whole lynch rejection mentality is more commonly town, and scum in this position tend to either sit back and let it happen, or take the sacrificial route. The fact that he's still resisting even now, after already self-voting, strikes me as town wanting the best for town. I'm not sure if I can word my experience with this mentality in another way without revealing my identity.

If it has to come down to a lynch between the two right now, I'd go with Cellphone. But I don't know where everything stands yet, which is why I want a bit more time to read into the game.

So I'm beginning to read through previous pages now. Please hold.

[Greatvalue]

Guys don't lynch me for not being active! dude got sick and left

imagien thats part of the reason.

Anyway, I really dislike qualiford this game. This is a pretty obvious fake troll. He doesn't have the right spirit tyhat usually comes from a trolly player. This is forced. I think hes an experienced player acting trolly to deflect attention. He's vote hopping like a mofo, and specifically his one on me is just bad. Lynching a lurker is a horrid decision from that point of view

VOTE: qualiford

...oh but these feel pretty scummy. Or a lot scummy.

Okay I might be starting to see what other people have now with their confidence. Probably still leaning toward a Cellphone lynch though because these posts-

cellphone who do you think is scum

Definitely kumquat. Probably mega (but could be troll, so it's a weak scumread).

Phantom of the Opera is almost definitely scum, I just feel it.

To much lesser degrees, dipsy-doodle (largely for the lurking; yeah yeah pot kettle laugh it up already), dead to me, and soothsayer.

i dont think hes unlikely to get lynched

but that has the feel of a convenient read

There's quite a few people town reading Quailford and more that seem unwilling to change from Kumquat so I'd say it's fairly unlikely whereas Cell has a genuine chance of going through

and is actually scum

.

This just feels like a scumslip. Sometimes scum tend to magnify their targets to ridiculous levels.

VOTE: kumquat

Oh, and Kumquat is at

L-1.

-feel just as scummy and I haven't found anything of his to make me read him in the opposite direction.

My earlier feelings don't feel like they stand as much ground right now. I'm actually a little disappointed by that because I'm worried I'm subconsciously joining a mob or something.

Still going through some things, sorry. I think I want to vote Cellphone, but not sure yet. I'm not voting Kumquat over Cellphone because I think Kumquat has at least some redeeming town-ness, but I don't know if I want to throw it all out and be crazy and actually vote for a third candidate if they're worse. I'm rambling right now because I still feel trapped between two suboptimal choices but I don't want to comply just yet.

[Greatvalue]

VOTE: Cellphone shift it.

[Greatvalue]

I'm going to need a lot more content from you, Greatvalue. Reads on people other than the two leading wagons for a start.

Quite honestly, there's neither the time or use for that right now, so I couldn't care too much. I'll analyze and bring that should I survive the night.

If I'm reading correctly, they are both at L-1. Would much prefer a Cellphone hammer, but considering Blade's animosity toward me I'm sadly not expecting much.

[Greatvalue]

How much of the game have you read?

You can expand on your reads D2 if you want but I want to see where you are at off the top of your head. It is most certainly useful considering I have a pool of seven suspects right now with you being one of them. I had an early scumread on you but you've disappeared since then and I don't have anything else to go by. I don't think you getting killed tonight is a possibility worth considering.

Who's blade?

I've read the early pages I was here for, glossed over some of the last pages, and read the last two.

By blade I meant Concorde, sorry. Have no idea where that came from.

Quilford, I'm voting Cellphone, too.

They're both at L-1.

[Greatvalue]

Concorde, hammer Cellphone, please. He's much more likely to flip scum after getting a sense of their motivations through their most recent posts.

[Greatvalue]

I had a town read on Shiba earlier on that was strengthened in the recent pages. I know Gumby claimed miller, and I don't think he would do that as scum, and the mod also has some miller talk in his post history to justify the role. I also have a mild townread on Yadtm because I get the sense that he is seriously trying to get the game moving, though his unvote right now is concerning, though I know it shouldn't bother me that much when I know Cellphone's alignment isn't clear in the slightest yet.

I have no distinct scumreads other than what I've noted about the two main wagons' recent posts, and even then Kumquat evens out or a more or less null read.

I'm lacking for direction right now, but didn't want to admit it. Happy?

[Greatvalue]

What's the heck

[Greatvalue]

the way this transpired feels gross

True as fuck

I'm just going to call you town because that is exactly how I'd word this.

[Greatvalue]

I think in a game where the scum ratio is smaller than normal, scum wouldn't bus D1 because not only does it make the ratio even smaller, they also have to explain why they're still alive late game after leading that scum lynch long ago on D1 and with just two members, they'd be putting all of their eggs in a rather small basket.

I don't know who would have shown up and who wouldn't have. No lynch would have been a horrible outcome. Dimitri wasn't even close to being a townread.

I realize you hated my unvote but the issue I have with GV is his non-committal stance on me. You have a stance despite hating my vote.

I dunno. Maybe I made a mistake voting Dimitri at the last minute. If I did, I'll figure it out as the game goes on.

I checked the first page again. There's no mention of a smaller scum ratio. Where the hell are you getting this?

Every single reason you're giving in response to Sooth now only looks like scum trying to defend something they absolutely had to do for their plan. You're reaching so far with everything.

Also if Kumquat does end up flipping scum I can very easily see Yadtm trying to get this bus as a scumpartner. Allows him to connect it to me further, and on a more flimsy note his constant reference to the slot as if it's still Dimitri falls more in line with a scumpartner mindset. Ignore if he flips town, but if that happens I'm so fucking done with all of this. Stupid as hell wagon switch, I expected my presence to sway you away from Cell because of how dumb you're being about me but fuck if I could've seen it happening as sudden and badly thought out as that.

[Greatvalue]

unvote

Feeling a little uncomfortable here. I'm still here. I'll revote if needed.

This

UNVOTE ON MY ONLY SCUMREAD

when

IT LEAVES THE ONLY OTHER COMPETING WAGON ALREADY AT L-1

is

CONCERNING

because with the

VERY LIMITED TIME

left

IT LOOKS LIKE ONCE YOU SAW THE CELLPHONE WAGON TIE THE KUMQUAT WAGON YOU JUST DIDN'T WANT CELLPHONE TO BE LYNCHED

. I hate unflipped associatives which is why I said the concern shouldn't be valid (and because I had a weak town read on you) but it's like you're working against me every step of the way, which I sort of understood considering your scumread on me, but that unvote literally could not come at a worse time for the possibility of a Cellphone over Kumquat lynch.

You keep harping on about this but you don't even seem to be considering any other viewpoints. If you're town I hope you can at least try to imagine how I'd feel, as town with my reads, about that unvote, before asking these annoying unnecessary questions.

Gdi I'm mad.

[Greatvalue]

I think it's merely you trying to explain a colossal fuck up as town

Yeah... I find myself continuing to revert to this thought. It's really depressing but it makes the most sense in my experience with people who play town like this.

[Greatvalue]

Final townreads of this day are Shiba, Gumby, Yadtm, and weakly Sooth and Shady.

Scumread Cellphone remains alive.

[Greatvalue]

Don't disagree that NS is a terrible player in general, that said I'm actually more confident that the slots scum given the alt knowledge.

I want to believe you, can you explain this?

More later, but for now this just rubs me the wrong way.

[Greatvalue]

I'm town, because CellPhone and Quailford are scum. Get over it.

[Greatvalue]

VOTE: Joey

I've said my piece.

[Greatvalue]

vote: Cellphone

Should have happened fucking yesterday until ~someone~ decided it was a very smart play to not post for nearly ten days and show his valuable butt a few hours before deadline and pushed for a Cellphone lynch in a scummy as fuck manner.

Can't push GV until D4 though because I'm not voting anyone else until Cellphone and Phantom are both dead, and it still could be NA or Megafan with them.

Hello RadiantCowbells. Or at least someone with a horrifically similar town ego.

[Greatvalue]

Soothsayer, explain the town thought process here:

Allows him to connect it to me further, and on a more flimsy note his constant reference to the slot as if it's still Dimitri falls more in line with a scumpartner mindset.

How is referring to the slot as Dmitri scummy?

To explain what I'm talking about, this was posted after the hammer and I think it exists solely to display GreatValue's "townslipping" by not knowing that Dmitri was town where he is shown to be creating paranoid theories about Dmitri's partners.

If GV is scum, his plan all along was to bait me into voting Dmitri and he'd have almost gotten away with it if I hadn't realized it now. Baiting someone else into voting by pushing the opposing lynch works well because GV can be pushing the "right" lynch while someone else takes the fallback for voting Dmitri.

Your extrapolation is at best paranoid and at worst... well let me just quote that again:

If GV is scum, his plan all along was to bait me into voting Dmitri and he'd have almost gotten away with it if I hadn't realized it now.

And again:

If GV is scum, his plan all along was to bait me into voting Dmitri and he'd have almost gotten away with it if I hadn't realized it now.

...and again!:

If GV is scum, his plan all along was to bait me into voting Dmitri and he'd have almost gotten away with it if I hadn't realized it now.

I will admit my original hypothesis regarding your usage of "Dimitri" over "Kumquat" was very flawed and formed out of incredulous anger. Considering I just referred to Joey as CellPhone as town (and so did a bunch of other people who have to be at least majority town) the point is moot anyway.

But your selfcentrism here is ridiculous. I wanted you to hammer CellPhone because I thought he was scum. You're forcing a hypothetical flawed analysis of my mindset through so many convoluted hoops that if it weren't for everything else town you've done I'd seriously be considering policy lynching you. Please stick to the straightforward, or at least something not crazy, and from now on I'll try to as well.

[Greatvalue]

You and Megafan both need to play the game and actually have reads on people other than obvious scum. Quail isn't scum for the reasons I listed and the post you quoted also doesn't make sense as partner to partner. I'm assuming you are reading Phantom as town considering you don't mention him at all. Why?

Because I do want to work with yoy when you're not being unreasonable:

I have no read on Phantom but plan on reading him. Eventually.

Why is Quailford not scum? I think there's a fairly good chance of it right now, and something like "he wasn't bussing" doesn't really work for me.

[Greatvalue]

re:Phantom, I actually don't remember any of his posts. I don't think he's even been present in the times I've been here, or if he has he's stuck to the background completely. That's sort of a main part behind why I have no read there (unless I notice a pattern of activity without stepping out of line, I don't consider that kind of absence scummy).

[Greatvalue]

You must have a huge ego to think you can actually policy-lynch me but thanks for the laugh.

Thanks for focusing on that. There's a difference between wanting and chasing.

[Greatvalue]

Or rather, pursuing.

[Greatvalue]

Yadtm, please read Joey's "catchup" post again, but focus on his positions with me. He's strongly agreeing with your points, and buddying you really really hard, especially when it comes to your scumread on me. None of his "analysis" of me is something you haven't said before, and in buddying you and trying to validate what you're seeing in my early posts, he's been trying to set me up as a mislynch with you as the driving force.

I am aware that it being me who points this out risks the integrity of the association, but fuck that because I seriously think I should be obviously town right now based on everything regarding Cell/Joey, and everything that went down at the end of day 1 related to Cell or not. The main reason I'm lashing out at you (sorry, because I like to think I'm normally a somewhat nice person in games) is because it's just really aggravating that you're both practically confirmed town and not letting anything change your view on me, including Cell being scum after all, and instead you're just twistng your hypothetical narrative to fit unrealistic scenarios where I am scum. That's what's getting on my nerves so much right now, not your play as a whole.

[Greatvalue]

If anyone's worthy of being policy-lynched, it is you. You did shit-all for all of D1

True, besides the beginning and end.

showed up 10 hours before deadline and starting arguing for a lynch with no reads, no thoughts, nothing. You can't even be fucked to read the game and you had the nerve to give me attitude for switching to Dmitri.

No. After a series of mild panic-induced events (again, I thought the confidence levels for the lynches were way too high for comfort and thought that indicated both would be town), I decided that reading the posts between Kumquat and Cellphone was the most realistic course of action given the game status. While I found both moments of town play and moments of scummy play in Kumquat's posts that seemed to cancel my read out to null, in CellPhone's posts I found nothing town and detected some scum motivation in his cross-vote on Kumquat (piling on the reasons for Kumquat over him, which plays to a sense of scum survivalism rather than town survivalism). You can see this starting at 791, and going on mainly through posts 800, 801, and 820.

You can say I argued for a CellPhone lynch mainly because the most likely alternative (Kumquat) seemed marginally worse by my half-fleshed out reads, yes. But then when I actually gave my reads in 824, which you

saw

, you just hammered not only 5 posts later.

That made me mad, because I didn't think (and still kind of don't) you listened to anything I said rationally - I had a townread on you, but that level of ignorance with your sudden hammer was so upsetting that in that moment the instinctive response was something along the lines of "oh god you're scum aren't you", until I cooled down and got it back together.

I was patient in explaining my thought process to soothsayer, and if you bother to read
the thread and invest your time and energy into it, I'd probably be patient and courteous to you as well.

If I find enough free time to pour a few uninterrupted hours into this game, maybe I will. I'm not giving any guarantees because quite frankly I have better things to do, and now that we finally have associatives everything else not recent is nowhere near as important as what we're getting now, until maybe in later days if we're stumped for clues. That is simply how I play and I'm not going to clutter myself when most of day 1 is circular anyway.

Also, I want everyone to know that I'm not fighting for my survival right now, take me at my word or not. I'm trying to fight for my credibility, because you're the most clear town here, but you keep shutting me down over inconsequential things or a ridiculously-justified scumread tunnel, when I honestly think I've actually done a significant amount of shit that matters, in the most recent parts of this game that've actually mattered.

[Greatvalue]

Why is Quailford not scum? I think there's a fairly good chance of it right now, and something like "he wasn't bussing" doesn't really work for me.

He was null to me until I saw that Joey post. Using interactive tells to catch scum works for me and the way he talked about Quail looked a lot like he was trying to justify wagoning Quail at some point in a way that doesn't draw attention to him. I do think it was a fairly weak tell because it was a single post and I don't have Quail as solidly town. I'd put him in the bottom of my townpile.

Why is he scum though? You quoted a post. Talk about this more.

You're talking about this section at the end, right?:

Something to note, I have a townread on Shiba as of page 12, but cannot ascertain the exact reasonings behind it. One thing that is jumping out at me is the way he was townreading all the major wagons- the odds that we had yet to wagon a scum at this point is pretty negligible. The attempt to start a quail wagon also felt good, because I find myself questioning the lack of one. As of 299, I would definitely find myself voting quail.

My readup is done as of post 14, I will likely continue reading coming into tomorrow. I definitely want to investigate the wagons that are evident at the end of the day, however, because I know I am town and kumquat flipped town means there is something very wrong going on here. I haven't gotten to any kumquat posts yet so I don't really know where the wagon is coming from, though.

This is in many cases more of a player-sensitive issue, which definitely doesn't help the read in an alt game, but I also find it odd how he immediately goes from "I would vote Quail" to just saying he's done with catching up for now and not placing any vote. As I said it might just be a player preference but it's only the start of day 2, and I don't think it's unreasonable to think that not voting Quail in spite of his pledge to the case and wagon that Shiba made could be a minor scumpartner tell.

As for talking about Quail a lot, he responds to or mentions Quail only once outside of that quote, while he responds to or mentions me in a negative way 4 times. Take that as you will, but from my perspective it really just looks like he's trying to set me up as a lynch (with pre-existing support in your read on me), while he "balances out" in a sense by not forgetting to include an actual scumpartner in his scumreads. Your token soft bus, as it were.

Bringing up another point from the Joey wall next, but want to post this in case the mod locks first.

[Greatvalue]

Spoiler: Dipsy's 155 and 156

In other news, Qualford is town, I think I may know who Dead guy is, which makes him likely town, and Gumby is still scum.

Unvote
Vote Gumby

P-edit: Kill it with fire!

scum

Which specific circumstances would "allow" you to play obvtown?

"not getting caught" LOL

scum

gumby is town af and these people mistakenly think they can deride him for an easy bad lynch

Thoughts on Dimitri?

Scum. And his posts are artificial. Which means he's scum.

calling 'artificial' a scum tell in a game full of secret alts, lol ok whatever you say

trying to rely on old rules = scum doesn't know how to approach this game

I can understand quailford

, but what is bothering you about gwen? I also don't have any qualms with referring to posts as artificial, as there is such a thing as being too over the top in the attempt to mask one's identity where it can become attempting to mask one's alignment. For instance, I find myself refraining from using phrases I have so often fallen back on, in favor of a more verbose and meticulous vocabulary. While yes,, it will probably sound remotely artificial, it is not to the point where Dimitri is.

This is the only other reference to Quailford besides the previously quoted mention at the end of his wall. That on its own isn't scummy (unless you compare it to his other "understandable" scumreads like me), but I really doubt that that subquoted post by Quail was enough for him to even agree there, when there's nothing else he or anything he's quoted has said to back a Quail scumread. And scum don't just scumread town without at least showing or hinting at a justifiable reason, they do that to a scumpartner because they know who's scum and know there'll always be at least something there they can use to justify themselves if needed so that their reads don't look fake (random townreads are always easier for scum to make than random scumreads that they then might have to commit a vote to, in part also due to there being more town than scum). In short, I believe Joey as scum threw out a spur of the moment read on Quailford to pad his reads, and that how it's a scumread rather than a townread is a decent indicator that Quail is a scumpartner-scumread that he can use his knowledge to be assured is justifiable, rather than a random townie-scumread he hasn't bothered to bring up before.

[Greatvalue]

BTW, for posterity's sake, I'll mention that I am pretty sure that Shiba was a vig kill, which means that the scum kill was probably somehow interrupted.

If you're actually a vig, why even try to be blasé about this? Scum would already be hunting for the alternative kill source and would instantly know to target you by this post. I don't believe this attempt at partial subtlety is genuine at all.

[Greatvalue]

Oh, that makes sense. Sorry for doubting you!

[Greatvalue]

Love love bye bye

[Greatvalue]

I really would like to hear more input from the people who have not been around. In particular, I don't quite know what to think of Qualiford, Megafan, Cellphone, Phantom, and Shady.
It especially bugs me that more than one of those folks is voting me.

CellPhone - Null. Needs to contribute more right the fuck now.

wish my buddy would post more =((((((((((((((

This is probably the most concrete lead we have (besides Quail, potentially) so thanks for pointing it out. Seriously it's a really good find, constantly reliable associative tell.

Shady is more firmly in my town pile.

----------

Yadtm after this game please consider reevaluating the patterns of behavior that you associate with town and scum.

[Greatvalue]

Sometimes it's hard for me to take you seriously. Honestly sorry about that.

[Greatvalue]

Well that's one less sane town member... RIP.

[Greatvalue]

Yadtm's town read on Quail only makes sense if he got a Vanilla result on him night 1.

I can go with CellPhone.

unvote, vote cellphone

My scumpool is NA, cellphone, phantom, greatvalue, xxcumquat, megafan, and quail. Everyone else is town.

Really want to see the rest of her catch up to solidify this read.

His thoughts on certain posts line up with what I was thinking when I saw them. I'm just seeing natural town development there. I don't think his stance on Gumby is as bad as you're trying to imply.

This is all you said about Quail. I just read his entire ISO and I don't see a thing that's town. The early posts, I don't know if it is trolling or serious. If serious, those reads are terrible. Then there's the Gumby suspicion and some scattered comments after that. I don't see town.

This is backed up by how the last thing he said about Quail on day 1 was a fairly convinced expression of a scum read. But then he entered day 2 with a Quail town read. I kind of doubt the Joey post on its own was enough to sway him, and his stubbornness on that issue makes sense if he was trying to communicate a Vanilla result on Quail. None of his day 2 posts hint toward a different result, including his first post, unless someone else sees something important?

Don't think Opera's the way to go here, still think either NA or Quail. Stand by.

[Greatvalue]

At any rate, I think trying to figure out Yadtm's one result before we get bogged down in unrelated day 3 content and it gets thrown aside is fairly important. The potential for town clarity is greater than any scum benefit, considering Quail already made WIFOMy comments yesterday that only served to be confusing. I want to set the record straight on that because there's no way I'm seriously believing he's a vig, 1 shot or not.

[Greatvalue]

I could see how that's somewhat optimal, but nothing indicates he did that. Plus I don't know if *he'd* think it were more valuable, since at the end of day 1 he had a town read on you:

I had a town read on Shiba earlier on that was strengthened in the recent pages. I know Gumby claimed miller, and I don't think he would do that as scum, and the mod also has some miller talk in his post history to justify the role...

Agree on Shiba and Gumby...

And I CTRL+f'd your name in his day 2 ISO, and got only this:

So the Joey post.

Gumby is town. Gwen is town because he's trying to align himself with Gwen defending Gwen from Dipsy. Strengthens my Concorde townread too.

NA read looks like weak partner defense.

Actually, I think it is just Joey, Opera, and NA.

Yes, he says you're town, but this post is relating to the Joey post.

Whereas his given explanation for a Quail townread all of yesterday was the Joey post, and yet Quail isn't mentioned here at all... I think this plus the previous reasoning strengthens the night 1 vanilla-quail hypothesis.

[Greatvalue]

I thought Yadtm got a Vanilla result on Quail and that it contrasting with his vig claim was a contradiction, but I can see Yadtm taking a not Vanilla result on Quail as an indicator of towniness. I guess if I was trying to prove a contradiction though, I could have been less obvious in case that's actually still a fakeclaim, which I think still stands a decent chance. It seems ridiculous that the kill count lines up like that, and vigging *Shiba*? Really?

And then again Quail never actually confirmed being a PR, just circled around the whole issue. I really don't think scum plan to kill him, and I think either way (town or scum) he knows that, so I think he should just fully claim. Right now only scum know what they chose to do night 1 and I'm squinting so hard at Quail for the unnecessary obscurity right now.

I'm conflicted. Will come back to this later.

[Greatvalue]

We could do this.

VOTE: Shady

...Well, at least you're town. 5/10.

[Greatvalue]

Yeah I'm not letting this one go, at least. VOTE: NA

[Greatvalue]

If I had a dayvig shot right now I would, without hesitation, shoot NA. The posts that Shady pointed out about NA giving CellPhone null reads and consistently wanting to hear more before committing in any way are strong partner indicators. This is an associative tell that I've constantly found to be reliable.

Then upon NA's scumflip, I would attempt to power lynch Spider Gwen. Call it a shot in the dark, but right now that's what feels right about the scumteam membership. I find myself both disagreeing with a lot of her stances (I do think her Dipsy wagon is a distraction from NA, and that her 1026 "I really can't see Dipsy and Aristocrat being scum together, and my reads are heavily pointing toward Dipsy as scum." is a very easy post for any scum to make to serve whatever need they have) and thinking that her posts are more designed to look towny rather than actually caring about the responses (1056 questioning a vote on the wagon she heavily supports after she's given reasoning to try and convince people to vote it - town in this case most often tends to just go with it and take what they get), and it feels like she's setting up chains that aren't there, and Gumby's recent comment about her post saying "Gumby towned it up on day 2" doesn't do anything to help that.

The Gwen read isn't contingent on NA being scum, though. Her Dispy vs. Aristocrat dichotomy, weak town-cred questioning (1035 and 1056) and "observations over analysis" (1082) are weak points on their own but together form a significant pattern of behavior I just don't see as coming from town who genuinely wants to find out who's scum. It feels more like the ISO of someone mostly going with the flow through the game and trying to look respectable too.

I've also done a self analysis in light on Gwen's 1013 and 1014 attacking me. I stand by my thoughts and think I'm being perfectly reasonable in my concern, and don't think my scum read on her has actually been influenced by that in any significant way. So my usual OMGUS insecurities are in check here!

[Greatvalue]

greatvalue is there a reason you were inactive for such a long time on day 1

Because reasons. Not scum reasons though. Null reasons.

[Greatvalue]

I see your response and raise you a "whatever" because I know I'm right at least when it comes to NA and I hate how Gwen is leading town in the wrong direction while being scummy as fuck about it.

Sorry I'm not in a helpful mood right now. I should be able to draw something cooperative out of me given that I'm pretty sure you're town but these past few days have been sort of... cba. Also I'm really bad at explaining my pattern recognition/thought process, much less when I'm trying to hide my main account, so. There's that. You have no idea how much I want to say "fuck it" and blow the whole lid on my identity right now just so I have a better chance at guaranteeing a scum lynch.

I'm just here right now so I can get my reads down in the thread, like when you're watching a game show and yell out the answer even though you're pretty sure it won't do a thing other than let you say "haha I was right!"

[Greatvalue]

I don't like when my townreads scumread me. That's the most demoralizing thing.

The most likely response to that is "then make them not scumread you", but... yeah lol right.

I'm done for today. Prod averted. Whee.

[Greatvalue]

I don't need a prod.

[Greatvalue]

Agree on Concorde being town for multiple reasons. That being said Shady is a strong townread for almost as many and I think the back and forth "argument" there is distracting.

As for the rest:

Natural Aristocracy ... is my strongest scum read, though I admit the last three posts of his give me pause.

Spider Gwen ... has a good chance of being scum given how many of the others are either town reads or feel more like distractions than scum. I still see so many of her posts as void of actual town investment. Investment in looking useful and wordy, yes. Investment in trying to analyze/engage with players as if she's trying to figure out their alignment, as soothsayer and Yadtm later on showed, no.

Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy ... I could see being scum, but in the past few real-days the one thing turning me away from this is how the wagon feels like a distraction. I mean I feel like everything else significant is being ignored, especially with regards to actually voting players' other scum reads or players with scum tells, in favor of just keeping the Dipsy wagon at the forefront. I just don't like the endless focus the votes have on this.

The Phantom of the Opera ... I don't think he's the right lynch today. I want to be able to call him town because he seems to be on the same page as me with certain reads, but still need a bit more.

Quailford LOL ... I'm torn. I still really think the CellPhone and Joey associations, at least, are fairly scummy. But then I thought, his responses to the claim inquiry could actually be town. And then back on the other hand his fading into the background as I took a step back, while still providing sparse "game-related" posts, looks like a scum tactic. Not to mention he reminds me of kuribo, in both his personality and penchant for claiming dumb shit as scum and being irritatingly successful at it.

Gumby ... is town, even with the Vanilla Cop flip.

the_soothsayer ... feels engaged with and invested in the game in a way that comes more from town trying to actually find scum. While I think highly of their main's scum game, I don't think this is it.

Megafan1998 ... I like on a purely visual level, but every time I try to determine alignment here I'm just drawing a blank. In any case he/she isn't on the table right now.

[Greatvalue]

Sooth, I think we're in similar positions in regards to our wagons. We just happen to feel stronger on different people. For me, I'm afraid that I may be voting Phantom based on a kneejerk response, even though I think PoE is pointing that way. And all things considered, Dipsy is just a way stronger read to me based on play. I also think that my wagon has the best chance of going through. Let's assume that Dipsy and Phantom won't cross vote, because I'd actually assume we'd have seen that by now. Let's also assume that Concorde and Value won't budge. And for the sake of argument, let's remove ourselves, since I think we'll both be on the succeeding wagon. That's 5 votes needed, with both of us holding 2 now. Aristocrat will revote Dipsy, and I think Quailford and Gumby will both make the move as well. That's all the votes I need for Dipsy. On the other hand, you have Aristocrat and Mega who have both refused to vote Phantom. I think Shady would vote there, but that's about it from the current Dipsy wagon. There's just no way you're getting the votes. And we both agree that Dipsy is scum, right? So if we're to consolidate, you need to switch soon. Either that or convince 2 of Concorde, Value, Aristocrat, and Mega why their Phantom town read is wrong.

The level of detail and lack of parsing here feels more like scum noise than anything. I don't disagree that town could want to talk about how to coordinate a lynch, but this entire post as a whole just reads as either scum taking a risk with the public manipulation/buddying or wanting to look like she's committed to moving the game forward.

I think Gwen is a good scum player, but I also don't think her posts are town. I'm trying to get my point across here without accusing her of intentional WIFOM, but... that's a part of it.

Okay. So Concorde is going to just vote town for the rest of the day. That's cool. Probably going to be something similar with Value.

And since when did you start reading NA as town instead of just not seeing Dipsy and NA as scum together?

[Greatvalue]

VOTE: Dipsy A Dipsy lynch is significantly better than an Opera lynch. At least there are things Opera's posted that get slight town marks.

Feeling Kumquat/Cellphone 2.0 here.

[Greatvalue]

For the record I got Concorde right ^.^

[Greatvalue]

The more I read the less fucks I give about this game. Sorry Quil. Still not enough fucks lost to "compromise" on Opera though.

Preferred lynch by far is NA but that's clearly not happening because there's enough suspicion on me for nobody to listen no matter how good the read or point is. Whatever, I can do Dipsy. Opera's constant posting throughout the past few pages strikes me as someone done with all the "not being listened to" bullshit (for me it's NA, for him it's the scumreads on him and him having to correct people especially with the Dipsy scumread thing), and that's kind of exactly how I've been feeling as this shit goes on. The town perspective I see in his posts is mainly major similarities to mine right now.

If Quail's a vig and actually odd-night or more than 1-shot, any shot other than NA tonight is ill-advised. Not to mention you already supposedly agree with the associative tell.

[Greatvalue]

Btw Titus I'm expecting you to post something along the lines of "talk to me then" but I think we all know you're not going to change your mind.

[Greatvalue]

P.S. Stop asking to vig town.

Are you fucking kidding me

[Greatvalue]

Please explain how you can even have that amount of confidence in NA being town. I saw some recent post stuff that I could see as coming from town but please do tell me how you can even ignore the rest of the overwhelming scum stuff.

[Greatvalue]

Wait never mind I don't want to hear it.

^.^ Good-bye for now Titus!

[Greatvalue]

Titus vs. Opera: Town vs. Potentially-Town, Part Two

Or something along those lines. I'm tired of it.

VOTE: NA because Shady.

Ugh I just want to lynch one of NA/Dipsy already.

I'm tired of it.

[Greatvalue]

Titus vs. Opera: Town vs. Potentially-Town, Part Two

Or something along those lines. I'm tired of it.

VOTE: NA because Shady.

Ugh I just want to lynch one of NA/Dipsy already.

I'm tired of it.

Why do you think Titus is town?
You don't have to answer this question if you keep your vote on Dipsy

Because this is town Titus.

[Greatvalue]

I will!

It's pretty clear I voted Dipsy because everyone kept ignoring you and there was no committed wagon support. Shady's a big town voice and changed that so here I am at you again.

Wanting either one of your lynches was a statement meant to express just how done with all of this I am right now, and I'm pretty sure I said that expressly.

Also, you?

Secret?

Lmfao.

My scumread on you is completely independent of meta but I feel pretty confident I could look back on a past game where you treated a lurking scumpartner similarly (if outing you when I didn't out Titus wouldn't be a dick move, that is). There's enough volume there that I don't think it'd be difficult.

[Greatvalue]

VOTE: Spider Gwen I don't only think she was "wrong" on Phantom (who I'm not willing to even consider being scum), but that she was purposefully wrong. I'm going with the simplest, clearest explanation for her positioning shifts all yesterday in light of the flip, in conjunction with my existing scum read.

[Greatvalue]

The following players are off the table today, without question: Greatvalue, Titus, Phantom. All are town, and of that I'm 99% certain.

And then Gumby's about 95% town, both for how the day 1 claim went over (I don't care how you perceive recent activity from him, nothing can override just how town his game approach was, including the complete lack of scum motivation there) and knowing Quilford and how he approaches setup design. The miller combined with not a true cop is massively indicative that there is a town miller placed as a red herring.

Before you ask: no, this isn't a cop claim. Just because I feel like Titus would bring it up in spite of the previous paragraph to the contrary.

Then Shady is just really town motivated and reeks of open town, and I've also been feeling on his wavelength most of the game. It's the same reasons I had for my sooth town read, except stronger because I was illogically wary of unnamed experienced player/Regfan's scum game in particular.

I would lynch out of NA and Gwen today. NA's association with Cellphone, and Gwen's association with Dipsy.

I was about to say the second is better for NA having some very slight townlike responses to pressure, but I actually just remembered who I determined NA is, and that the minor town hints I saw in under-pressure posting don't apply there.

VOTE: NA

I'm not sure of Megafan. I think they could definitely be scum, but that's third just by way of focus. (I should try to look into that more.)

As for Quailford:

Quailford has been an enigma to me since day 2 and all his responses and I still don't know if I believe the claim. I've been hoping it would come to me in time but I'm just sort of flummoxed. I mean, typing it out now, it seems ridiculous that I'm so hung up on a 1 shot vigilante that just happened to kill when mafia didn't succeed. Also that he killed Shiba who was very obviously town. And we haven't had any indication from town that there'd be a town PR-related reason for a no kill.

I don't think I believe it, but then he actually seemed to be consistently scumreading Shiba when it'd have been so easy as scum for Quail to town read him. I don't think that was just good scum foresight if they planned on killing Shiba early. And then I'm back at square one.

[Greatvalue]

Later on in day 3, Gwen kept trying to shift the lynch from Dipsy onto her secondary scumread, Phantom. I believe she initially aimed to bus Dipsy for easy town cred as Dipsy was undoubtedly useless to the scum team anyway, but then incorrectly judged that the slot being due for replacement and later on getting a replacement would allow for a reasonable way to try and get a mislynch anyway (she'd still get town cred for having the Dipsy push at all), when also expressing a shift in scumread strength on Phantom. The timing of her shift is sketchy as fuck.

I don't think Gumby got coached to fuck up an out of nowhere miller claim. If you're going to take a risk, you don't tell a generally null scum partner to make themselves the center of attention. You take the risk yourself, or just don't coach someone to make a fucking dumb move at all.

[Greatvalue]

Also, I still think this setup has a miller.

[Greatvalue]

So Megafan is town, that's good. Did you have any other results?

UNVOTE: NA Before you reveal any I think a PR or not claim is in order with the new investigative reveal. As of right now seeing that claim I'm finding it very hard to believe we have a Vanilla Cop, Miller, Deputy, 1 shot Vig, Doctor/RB/JK/BP, and more. This whole thing makes me want to lynch Quail as the odd one out. Nobody's even hinted at believing Mafia could have been unsuccessful night 1 and I don't think we have the investigatives existing with a kill stopping role.

In any case this game is solved, between Quail, NA, and Gwen. Gwen's 1512 both smelled like town and scum so I'm upset. All three of these are scum to me for different reasons but then all three have minor possibly-negated town marks. I'm upset.

[Greatvalue]

I just realized there are 9 people alive, at most 2 scum, and over a week left to deadline. So I can stop playing optimally and safely say I have hard role-related information that the last scum is in a {NA, Gwen, Quail} pool.

So please Gwen, if you're scum, shut up and try to mislynch one of those other two instead. Thanks.

[Greatvalue]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I just looked at Dipsy's ISO for the first time and I don't think those long, drawn out, actually clever sounding insults and arguments on day 1 are that likely to be scum vs scum. So Gwen gets a pass for now.

I think a VOTE: Quailford wagon should happen first because setup-wise it's more likely to just not be possible.

[Greatvalue]

Yes, I'm saying I've eliminated 5 players based on role info.

My role also strongly casts doubt on there being both a town vig and town protective/roleblocker. So there is that too.

[Greatvalue]

My role is fairly strong, and right now it's even stronger if scum don't know what exactly it is. Dying isn't something of concern anymore, either.

[Greatvalue]

LOL what do I fucking gain from this as scum. If you're all town, a mislynch on NA and Quail just leads to me dying.

Go ahead, play shittier

[Greatvalue]

LOL

LOL

LOL

Nice guess.

[Greatvalue]

This game should get a scummy for most uses of "LOL" (case sensitive). LOL.

[Greatvalue]

I've been noting how Dipsy went all out attack mode on Gwen for instantly voting Gumby's miller claim while ignoring Quailford other than "I could do Quailford", voting because Shiba told him to, and not really commenting on it otherwise.

[Greatvalue]

Why is Quailford not scum? I think there's a fairly good chance of it right now, and something like "he wasn't bussing" doesn't really work for me.

He was null to me until I saw that Joey post. Using interactive tells to catch scum works for me and the way he talked about Quail looked a lot like he was trying to justify wagoning Quail at some point in a way that doesn't draw attention to him. I do think it was a fairly weak tell because it was a single post and I don't have Quail as solidly town. I'd put him in the bottom of my townpile.

Why is he scum though? You quoted a post. Talk about this more.

You're talking about this section at the end, right?:

Something to note, I have a townread on Shiba as of page 12, but cannot ascertain the exact reasonings behind it. One thing that is jumping out at me is the way he was townreading all the major wagons- the odds that we had yet to wagon a scum at this point is pretty negligible. The attempt to start a quail wagon also felt good, because I find myself questioning the lack of one. As of 299, I would definitely find myself voting quail.

My readup is done as of post 14, I will likely continue reading coming into tomorrow. I definitely want to investigate the wagons that are evident at the end of the day, however, because I know I am town and kumquat flipped town means there is something very wrong going on here. I haven't gotten to any kumquat posts yet so I don't really know where the wagon is coming from, though.

This is in many cases more of a player-sensitive issue, which definitely doesn't help the read in an alt game, but I also find it odd how he immediately goes from "I would vote Quail" to just saying he's done with catching up for now and not placing any vote. As I said it might just be a player preference but it's only the start of day 2, and I don't think it's unreasonable to think that not voting Quail in spite of his pledge to the case and wagon that Shiba made could be a minor scumpartner tell.

As for talking about Quail a lot, he responds to or mentions Quail only once outside of that quote, while he responds to or mentions me in a negative way 4 times. Take that as you will, but from my perspective it really just looks like he's trying to set me up as a lynch (with pre-existing support in your read on me), while he "balances out" in a sense by not forgetting to include an actual scumpartner in his scumreads. Your token soft bus, as it were.

Bringing up another point from the Joey wall next, but want to post this in case the mod locks first.

Spoiler: Dipsy's 155 and 156

In other news, Qualford is town, I think I may know who Dead guy is, which makes him likely town, and Gumby is still scum.

Unvote
Vote Gumby

P-edit: Kill it with fire!

scum

Which specific circumstances would "allow" you to play obvtown?

"not getting caught" LOL

scum

gumby is town af and these people mistakenly think they can deride him for an easy bad lynch

Thoughts on Dimitri?

Scum. And his posts are artificial. Which means he's scum.

calling 'artificial' a scum tell in a game full of secret alts, lol ok whatever you say

trying to rely on old rules = scum doesn't know how to approach this game

I can understand quailford

, but what is bothering you about gwen? I also don't have any qualms with referring to posts as artificial, as there is such a thing as being too over the top in the attempt to mask one's identity where it can become attempting to mask one's alignment. For instance, I find myself refraining from using phrases I have so often fallen back on, in favor of a more verbose and meticulous vocabulary. While yes,, it will probably sound remotely artificial, it is not to the point where Dimitri is.

This is the only other reference to Quailford besides the previously quoted mention at the end of his wall. That on its own isn't scummy (unless you compare it to his other "understandable" scumreads like me), but I really doubt that that subquoted post by Quail was enough for him to even agree there, when there's nothing else he or anything he's quoted has said to back a Quail scumread. And scum don't just scumread town without at least showing or hinting at a justifiable reason, they do that to a scumpartner because they know who's scum and know there'll always be at least something there they can use to justify themselves if needed so that their reads don't look fake (random townreads are always easier for scum to make than random scumreads that they then might have to commit a vote to, in part also due to there being more town than scum). In short, I believe Joey as scum threw out a spur of the moment read on Quailford to pad his reads, and that how it's a scumread rather than a townread is a decent indicator that Quail is a scumpartner-scumread that he can use his knowledge to be assured is justifiable, rather than a random townie-scumread he hasn't bothered to bring up before.

And then there was this with Joey.

[Greatvalue]

Order of lynching: Quail, NA, then Gwen if neither are scum.

If it makes you feel any better you can replace Gwen with me but that's not happening.

[Greatvalue]

@Shady: The strongest thing outside of the miller claim on Gumby is this post after Joey's slip:

Ouch :/ looks like you composed that in your Scum PT before posting.

It's a scumslip. It happens.

VOTE: Joey Tribbiani

PEdit ninja'd

LOL, the last scum is going the trolling route.

VOTE: Phantom

I was about to say the second is better for NA having some very slight townlike responses to pressure, but I actually just remembered who I determined NA is, and that the minor town hints I saw in under-pressure posting don't apply there.

VOTE: NA

Never mind... I am going to sheep that instead. I can take a hint...

VOTE: NA

So what is your consecutive scum lynch?

[Greatvalue]

Actually, I haven't cleared Shady. Forgot about that since he's been one of my strongest townreads all game, in line with sooth's and my trains of thought.

[Greatvalue]

Oh, now I remember why I didn't say that originally. I was tired of Titus focusing in on only Shady. Drat, too early.

[Greatvalue]

Fine. I figure scum's been trying to read into my posts and play anyway so whatever. I'm a Neapolitan, confirmed Titus/Concorde and Phantom as VTs. Didn't want to claim this earlier because it's forcing a massclaim but we have most players claimed already or at least heavy hinting (Titus' posts were all clearly non-PR to any scum looking).

And then we have Gumby and Mega practically cleared due to setup synergy (this is what I meant repeatedly earlier on, and knowing how Quil likes to design games w/ his personality too).

Town Vanilla Cop
Town Cop
Town Variant Deputy
Town Miller

The miller is a triple red herring - you have three non-alignment investigatives and then one miller to throw smoke in the mix. Search miller in Quil's post history and his attitude toward them supports adoption of millers without regular cops, not to mention he also likes being over the top clever with design.

The way Mega claimed deputy and the very specific interpretation is very town convinced with the two starter investigatives. I don't think I got rolecopped either. The way Neapolitan and Vanilla Cop work when overlapping, you can actually get guilties on Mafia Goons. We are dealing with one Goon left, most likely, and I think Quail's "Mafia must be a strong PR" is intentionally far off. I mean he has to say that to support his crazy early vig claim.

I also don't think there are any PRs left because that would dilute the power of these investigatives too much. And any sort of town role that can prevent kills with these investigatives around seems far fetched. Another point against Quail.

Mafia Encryptor
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Town Neapolitan
Town Vanilla Cop
Town Deputy (Mega what do you flip as? With the variant note or not? If not it seems to support the miller having extremely swingy believability which sounds right design wise)
Town Miller
Vanilla Townie x8

And I think that is the setup.

[Greatvalue]

Plus Gumby is continually town as fuck anyway. Shady's points don't stand against multiple towntells.

[Greatvalue]

I'm expecting people to look at that and then the miller and say shit like, "There's three role cops but no alignment cop? Then no fucking way there's a miller!" My response is just... it's 2015 and Quilford likes to think he's clever. So yeah.

Don't underestimate the strength of a Neapolitan, Vanilla Cop, and Deputy trio setup wise, that's a really strong combo that can pretty much cut the field in half like it did here. The Miller both mitigates that in terms of setup confusion and in terms of being unable to investigate it at all.

And again since Mega claimed Deputy I really don't think there's a Vig alongside these.

[Greatvalue]

Lastly before I go to sleep,

N*obody e*ven a*nswer, p*lease. *

I crumbed "Neapo". Always avoided using a smiley icon afterward. Normally this wouldn't mean too much other than letting me think I'm clever postgame, but right now there really is no other option than to accept the premise that I am town (Yadtm's flip and Mega's prior claim go so closely hand in hand with mine) and then accept the other premises standing on top of that.

[Greatvalue]

N1 - Quail, not VT
N2 - Concorde, VT
N3 - Phantom, VT

[Greatvalue]

Actually one last thing. We have two ways to play this.

We can lynch NA or Shady today (huge preference on NA between those two) and have Mega vanilla cop Quail tonight to see if he's a Goon. If Mega gets killed over me then I'll be clearing someone tonight anyway, Gwen or whoever wasn't lynched above. This is assuming the rest of town is VTs which is imperative to sort today so Mega or I can get at least one meaningful result.

Or we can just lynch Quail. Because I'm impatient, but the other plan seems to cover bases.

[Greatvalue]

I don't know what to say.

You made that post off a prod and now it just looks to me like you're scum who was discouraged at being in a shit spot after my claim and lurked for lack of something decently believable to say. And now you're either trolling, or actually trying but pulling it out of your ass.

And we already know you're not Titus. And you implied not being DGB. So... I'm back at square one with this 3-pool. Again.

[Greatvalue]

I mean after a search you haven't even been prodded once before this and it's coming after I've claimed to narrow down the field and while I revealed my full innocent results and setup analysis.

I know this should be null but it's annoying as fuck how every single one of you three keeps insisting on working your way back into the center of my scumreads when I finally think I've managed to narrow it down a bit. Even more annoying when it's literally only you three (and Shady) who can be scum right now.

[Greatvalue]

I just can't believe that as any alignment you would legitimately think that's in any way a valid argument you could be making there. It's almost completely unreadable on that level because it's that surprising.

If you want to talk setup design for real, look at the last Secret Alt Mafia. Look at how Quilford likes to design in his only other recent game, http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62826.

[Greatvalue]

...

Because you're a town protective claiming in twilight, but not revealing what could essentially be a N1 innocent. Right.

[Greatvalue]

The past few Gwen posts have somewhat convinced me that she and Quail are Mafia Lovers.

Also, Neapolitan. Since half your posts seem to operate under the universal assumption that I, as scum, made up some sort of modified vanilla cop from scratch. This point isn't meant to be some sort of alignment rebuttal, but to show that either way you seem to have no idea what you're talking about.

[Greatvalue]

My setup assumption makes infinitely more sense than yours. For starters, if you take the VC/Miller/Deputy trio as truth, two of those are practically useless without a Town Neapolitan. The VC and Neapolita together work to find Goons, and this synergy is ensured a longer life through the Deputy. Not to mention I have crumbed my results in early clear posts every single day. If I had done that as scum, it only exascerbates the town advantage upon my death.

But I don't have to justify myself to you any further. This whole setup premise of yours is ridiculous, not least of which is because you're interpreting the previous setups far too literally instead of analyzing how Quilford likes to think about the game.

[Greatvalue]

Subject: Secret Alt Mafia 2 – Mod PT

I thought Yadtm got a Vanilla result on Quail and that it contrasting with his vig claim was a contradiction, but I can see Yadtm taking a not Vanilla result on Quail as an indicator of towniness.

Oh my god, dummy. A "Vanilla" or "not vanilla" result isn't indicative of shit.

There are four categories of players: vanilla townies, town PRs, mafia goons, and mafia PRs. A vanilla cop is only useful after players claim to see if it matches up. It matching up is in no way indicative of town because mafia goons can fake claim VT roles and mafia PRs can fake-claim town PRs. On the off-chance they don't, then they get caught. That's it.

Assuming that someone is town because I get a vanilla result on them is stupid. Assuming that someone is town because I get a non-vanilla result on them is stupid. I can only conclude that you believe I'm stupid. But trying to draw conclusions through assuming that your fellow townies are stupid is

itself

stupid.

Well of course. I did actually think YADTM investigated Quail N1, but had no idea what the result was. I had a great deal of investment in trying to determine that because it could have identified him as a Mafia Goon, so I spun it a bit to try and to induce a role-indicative reaction from Quailford, wording things in a way that it seemed like he would gain the benefit of stronger townreads if he agreed/committed to a VT hint. Not the reaction I wanted though because then the Vig wasn't indicative with my result, though independently it was still really literally incredible.

In hindsight him knowing he was investigated makes sense. Did he think I/someone else was a Tracker or something? The early Vig claim seemed rushed but just enough to cover all bases.