Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

/confirm

[BlueBloodedToffee]

At least one scum in ABR, Anen, Kmd and Yosarian.

Probably exactly one actually.

Guaranteed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Prob not ABR or Kmd though.

More likely to be Anen/Yosarian.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No hi?

No how are you?

How rude ABR :p

Because it was all too similar. Scum trying to blend in by copying other confirms and trying not to stand out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That is some top level psychological analysis.

You got me. Lynch me for I have sinned.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shaddowez is town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

He is?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: ABR

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Now you wanna talk?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We were a hell of a good team as well.

Which makes me question why you would ignore me when I'm trying to engage you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thank you, good to be playing with you again.

Thoughts on game so far? Particularly interested in your thoughts around your wagon.

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I'm here and catching up. This is going to be a good game, I can feel it.

Lowell, BBT would do all of that as scum too.

Can you tell me what the purpose of this post was Kmd? I feel like this post is made on the assumption that Lowell is town? If so, where has that read come from?

hi, this is dumb. random chance says there is likely to be one scum in a group of four out of the thirteen players in this game, but your reason is bad.

vote: toffee

How dare you say my reasoning for finding scum on page 1 is both 'dumb' and 'bad'. That's the best damn page 1 reasoning you're ever likely to see.

Now, take that back.

So Toffee is scum?

Point of this post, AI?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kmd
super secret maybe scum read???

This looks like a serious vote Tex, can you walk me through it? What was scummy about Kmd keeping a read to himself?

Yeah, actually ABR replaced into a game for me where I was scum and killing it, and he came in guns blazing and totally blew it.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

This looks like another RVS vote. If it is, why are you ignoring the fact that Kmd has stated he has placed a serious vote on you?

VOTE: Acryon

Serious vote. Jumped on the BBT wagon when it was gaining steam, then when people stopped talking about him and started voting ABR he joins in to do the same.

I like this vote but for different reasons. As stated above.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

At this point it's the scummiest thing I've seen. I have no problem with vote jumping, but he doesn't seem to have put any reasoning into his votes, and is just latching onto the wagons that are forming.

Do you believe wagon hopping/forming wagons to have negative utility during RVS? If so, why?

All town

Interesting. Can you talk about this a little more?

Like if you are scum, keep buddying people like you have with Yos and BBT already

Huh? I can see it with Yos but I don't see where ABR is buddying me.

Nope. That's not how I play at all, but it's page 3 so in the first few I tend to say whatever and see what happens. In your and shadowez cases, it seems like you're trying too hard.

To avoid ambiguity, are you equating try hard to scummy here?

@kmd- shaddowz reads like a player who is making a showy effort to look like he's being useful, while not being useful. The way he (superfluously) notes that his vote is a "serious vote" in 47, then has a ready-made oh-so-casual response to justify it in 52. He's defending his right to be suspicious and cast a vote more than he's defending the vote itself. So, not so much a try-hard, as a faux-try-hard. Join this wagon.

I'm interested as to why you're applying all of this to Shadow and completely ignoring Kmd. Kmd also stated he had a serious vote on Acryon, he didn't have the chance to explain his vote because Acryon never asked about it.

What is the difference between the two?

BBT

- Talk to me about your Anen/Yos reads.

Lowell

- So you think I'm scum for placing a serious vote, and actually moving us out of RVS? Interesting.

It was mostly something to get the game going but a small part of me does believe that scum would have confirmed in the way other people were doing it to avoid making waves.

I don't like that you just tried to claim credit for moving us out of RVS. Small things that scum do to look town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

People i don't currently want to lynch becsuse they've done something i like at some point
Lowell
roflcopter
Albert B. Rampage
AlwaysInnocent
kmd4390


Everyone else
shaddowez
2. Lucky2u
3. acryon
4. Kop
6. texcat
8. BlueBloodedToffee
11. Aneninen

List subject to change whenever i feel like it

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

In general, at this point in the game, i tend to townread people who are active and doing intresting things. None of those are especally strong reads, but they all look like they're actually scumhunting in their own way.

Really? I fail to see how this relates to ABR, rofl and AI in any way. Can you elaborate?

Interesting to see that you enter the game so aggressively.

What do you think it means?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, nothing wrong with applying/discussing theory. It is not a "safe way out" but an addition to my ad hoc play.

There most definitely is. Scum would happily spend most of their time posting about theory because it distracts from actually scum hunting. Both your posting and Kop's posting around this subject makes me feel uneasy.

ABR is basically playing in his normal meta. Loud, obnoxious, picking fights. It's basically how I expect town-ABR to act. It's not really an alignment tell, he could do that as either alignment, but I haven't seen any red flags from him yet.

No, he isn't. I picked the fight with ABR because I thought he was ignoring me. It's also strange how you're saying it's not an alignment tell but your town reading him for it anyway?

Your reads/reasoning aren't making any sense to me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Lucky2u

Found scum.

Let's talk about this vote and why you're ignoring Yos' incorrect statements about your play.

VOTE: Lucky2u

I know that we are still transitioning from RVS to scumhunting, but Lucky2u is playing too minimalistic now even for my taste. I want to see more from him.

What took you so long to vote Lucky? Why wait for somebody else to do it first?

kmd and alwaysinnocent are scumbuddies. you heard it here first.

This feels town.

there's some people being pretty obvtown around here so that's good

Who are you talking about here?

I have my doubts about KMD, but I am curious why you think that. Like I said, trying to find positive connections between scum on D1 often fails. So why do you think you are able to find a connection between me and KMD? For giving up so easily on me? That caught my attention, too. But what does it tell us? Not much.

Second time you have done this in a short space of time. You seem to latch onto other people's thoughts/opinions whilst trying to make them look like your own. (The Lucky vote and now this sudden suspicion of Kmd which was previously nowhere to be found.)

ABR: Like I said, he's totally in his town meta, and is acting like how I would expect town-ABR to act at this point in the game.

AlwaysInnocent: There are several of his posts I liked. His post 31 gave me good vibes for some reason. Also it feels like he's really scumhunting.

KMD: I really liked the super-earnest way he went after ABR.

Disagree with your assertions about ABR as I have already stated.

There are several of AI's posts that you liked and you pick one that you can't even explain why you like it? Wanna pick a few others?

Kmd went after ABR?

If AI could stop mansplaining how voting works that would be great. I'd vote hiim if someone could tell me why the shaddowz wagon is broken.

Also I forgot to mention rofl is town, even though he's openly trying to derail the lucky wagon. Which, by the way, does the lucky wagon need more juice, or what? Or should I just wait here until it fizzles out?

Would it be fair to read these posts as unwilling to leave Shadow wagon for AI but willing to leave Shadow wagon for Lucky?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Caught up.

VOTE: Yos

This needs to happen now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Um. What? I was already considering him, by looking at the activity overview. Previously I voted Kop for his lack of contributions, which forced him out of his shell. Furthermore, Lucky said that he was going to take a backseat in the game, which I don't like. Being on a wagon greater than size 1 usually helps to push players to contribute more.

I see, so what you're saying is I should have known that you were already suspecting Lucky because you had looked at the activity overview? OK then.

What do you dislike about Lucky saying he will be taking a backseat?

By the way, how can you be convinced by an empty one-liner about two players being scum buddies this early in the game? How does that make someone town?

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Seriously, figuring out who looks townie and then lynching someone who doesn't is the single most effective way to find scum, especially early. People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

Agreed. This in no way assuages my concerns that you're scum or even responds to my comment about your post though. You side-stepped my issue, well played, but try again.

Excuse me? What is "incorrect" about my statements? I've been playing with ABR for many years now, I think I have some idea of what his meta is.

You said ABR was picking fights - I showed you that this was wrong. I would go as far as to say that ABR has played mildly up to this point so you're read of 'loud and obnoxious' is very confusing to me.

His vote for you was a very town-ish move; you were looking scummy at the point he voted for you, and I like that he's thinking the same way I am.

This was also great:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Texcat

For drawing conclusions so quickly.

AlwaysInnocent, you drew a conclusion just as quickly as TexCat.

No, no. I never conclude anything. I only assume things.

Townish, aggressive, trying to scumhunt without fear or excessive caution.

He also changed his vote 4 times by page 4, which, in context, is town-ish and implies scumhunting. He's lurker hunting, which is also pro-town at this stage of the game, and in general his play makes a lot of sense.

Just because you describe something as 'townish' it doesn't make it so, you just repeat this is townish, this is townish, this is townish. Why were those actions townish?

Aggressive is a trait reserved for town now is it? That's a first. Lurker hunting is the easiest form of scum hunting for scum to do, there is nobody to respond to their accusations.

This feels like a scummy vote from BBT, but obviously I may be biased here. Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.

You wanna elaborate on this bad vibe you're getting from my posting and why my vote is scummy? You need to stop stating things like they're fact and start explaining.

Also, you missed the part where I asked you to show me where Kmd was pushing ABR.

But I ask again... why is the shaddowz wagon going nowhere? He started lurking after I called him out, and nothing has happened since.

Because he's probably town. You should join me on Yos and answer my question that I asked you.

Not at all, as it assists in forming patterns and making initial impressions of people both by what any individual is doing, along with reactions to those people. An argument could be made that it's townier than vote parking, but then people can just use that to try for meta.

OK, then I'm not sure I understand your problem with Acryon's earlier play?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My PM was quite specific about how to confirm. (See the OP.) Are you suggesting that scum had different instructions? Or are you suggesting that it's scummy not to read the instructions, or scummy to read the instructions?

Are you being facetious on purpose?

People usually confirm in different ways; a few examples to illustrate my point.

'/confirm. Let's get this game going.'

'/confirm, wooooo, I'm excited'

'/confim, y'all are making me nervous already.'

'/confirm, accompanied with random GIF' etc etc.

I'm sure you get the point now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hope everyone had a great Christmas!

What do you think of ABR's play? You argue that he's playing mildly, but don't actually express any thoughts on whether you think his current play style is scummy or not.

ABR is null at the moment - he hasn't done anything to tip my read one way or the other. I find ABR quite difficult to read and he has fooled me before as scum so I'm going to take my time and keep that read close to my chest as it develops.

BBT, don't twist my words. I didn't say that you should have known that.

I know you didn't, but you stated it like I should have known that's what you did and I should not have had the audacity to question your lucky vote. The fact is, when you voted Lucky you showed no prior reasoning leading towards a Lucky vote and you did it straight after somebody else voted him. That sets off alarm bells for me.

lowell, kop, shadow and toffee are all town and should all climb aboard the always innocent wagon with me for great justice

Walk me through why Lowell and Kop are town?

Why is Yossarian scummier than AlwaysInnocent?

He's not necessarily scummier then AI, but I feel like Yos would be the trickier one to catch if they were both scum and so I'm much more interested in spending my energy getting him lynched at this present time.

Kop and shadow are town???

Is KMD town? A friend wants to know.

Why have you ignored my earlier question?

You claimed it was "scummy to make a list" with absolutely no justification for that fairly bizarre statement (especially since making a list is pretty much a universal behavior from many people irrespective of alignment). Anyway, the only real way to town-hunt is to make a list of people who look town, and then go after people not on the list.

I'm pretty sure I said why I didn't like your reads-list when I posted. You should go read my post again.

You're right though, lots of people make reads-lists. Sometimes though, a reads-list just isn't required, or it doesn't say a lot or there is something else wrong with it. I have caught scum by them posting awful reads-lists before. You wouldn't be the first.

It's not actually the 'making of the list' that's scummy. I mean, it still kind of is because nobody needs a reads-list on page 5 or whatever it was, but it's the fact that you felt the need to post it. You didn't need to post it, the only purpose of posting it is to look 'pro-town', especially as you later admit your reads are based mainly on gut.

This is not "playing mildly". He's being deliberately provocative to try to get a reaction from people, which is pretty much what I'd expect.

I've cut the quotes out from ABR - go and look at what happened right before ABR started posting like that. I picked the fight with ABR, not the other way around. Therefore, your reasoning for your ABR town read is false and I call BS.

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Fantastic. Now, tell me why these tells apply to AI and not me? Because I'm not seeing consistency in your reads.

Why are you trying so hard to get me to defend AI, anyway? Why do you care so much where my town read comes from? I could understand your play if you thought AI was scum, but as it is, your whole thrust here just looks wierd.

Firstly, I'm making you do anything, nice try, but you make your own choices and create your own posts. Secondly, I am clearly doubting your AI town read, I think it is clear to see from my posting that I do not think AI is town so I'm not sure why you're feigning confusion.

If you want to know, I think that I posted a list that had you in the "scummy" catagory, and you massivly over-reacted in a pretty irrational way, that didn't really make any sense at all. That makes you look bad.

Not only that, it makes me think that if you do flip scum, that probably most or all of your scum team is also on that scum list I posted, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to discredit me.

I don't think I over-reacted. I think I've caught scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

His back and forth with you after your RVS vote on him gave me that vibe.

What do you think about Yos reading those exact same posts as aggression and using that as a reason to town read ABR?

His vote and then later unvote for ABR on wasn't great; I get the vote was probably random, but then removing for reason was eeehh.

I voted ABR for ignoring me and then unvoted him when he started interacting with me. Can you explain your problem with this a little more?

Can you be a little more specific about what you don't like about my 142? Your vague accusations make them difficult to respond to, which I'm sure is the point of them.

ANd then he flipped out about my "list" in a really irrational way, spending 3 posts talking about it and demanding that I be lynched. The fact that he reacted so badly to it just makes me think that I have his entire scum team on my naughty list, and he's upset that his whole scum team is getting coal this year.

You keep saying I flipped out about your reads-list and that really isn't what happened. I quite clearly had a problem with your reads-list and I have explained why on numerous occasions. You keep saying it was an irrational response, but quite clearly that's a false statement.

Why the hell do people keep voting for me? This is really getting stupid. I'm not sure if people are voting me because I'm actually scumhunting, or if people are voting me because God forboid a lot of my early-day 1 reads are gut (what the hell else couldthey be based on?) but nobody on this wagon has given any kind of reason for voting me. I mean, the only person who even tried to make a case was BBT, but he's probably scum.

Lowell, why is it that you said one thing about me that was 100% false, I proved it was 100% false, you didnt' respond, then you said another thing about me that was 100% wrong, I proved it was 100% wrong, and you then ingored both points and voted for me with no explanation?

I mean, if nobody else is going to try to actually play mafia this game, then I'll stop putting so much effort in, that's fine.

The AtE is strong with this one. This is what you call over-reacting, my friend. You only have 3 votes. I need another 4 to lynch you, don't panic just yet.

If Yosarian is town, then BBT might indeed be scum.

This is bad. How have you made this connection?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT

- You seem to keep popping in and picking apart people's posts, but haven't really provided any information or seem to be looking to understand things. Do you have some thoughts you'd like to share?

Is there something in particular you're looking for? I think I have provided plenty of information and have shown my thought process around several issues so far.

I don't really have scumreads at this point. However if I have to make a guess, then scum could be among these people:

BBT
Albert B.
KMD
Yosarian

Why for each?

Uh. What? I'm playing in an incredibly risky fashion to the point of recklessness here to try and lynch scum.

What? How is your play in any way reckless and how are you trying to lynch scum? You're voting a lurker, a lurker who you have no case on I should add.

I mean, obviously i knew that calling half the people in the game town was going to get me attacked, and defending contraversial people like AI, you, Albert, and rolf was likely to get me voted. But I'm clearly right; it really looks like all 4 of you are town. If I was scum I'd have sat back and let you 4 tear each other up.

OK, so this makes no sense at all. You

expected

to be attacked for your reads-list (cough *you're lying* cough), I attacked you, and you called me scum for it? Can you explain how that works when you was expecting to be attacked?

Scum don't have to "take control of the game". If the loudest and most agressive players are town and they all fight each other, the scum can just stay out of the way and let them fight.

This is another comment in a growing list of comments that seem to directly contradict your read on me. Let's talk about that.

I find it incredibly frustrating that there's a wagon on me for no real reason when i feel like my play has been so on point, and so effective, and so obviously pro-town.

I actually laughed out loud when I read this sentence. The pro-town part just killed me.

My scum pool is Lowell and Lucky.

I feel like your vote is getting stale.

Thoughts on why Lowell and Lucky are scum and thoughts on Yos?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If BBT is indeed town, then it is likely that Yosarian is scum.

Why?

Both are town.

Yos really isn't town ABR - I would like you to join the Yos wagon.

VOTE: KMD

Naked votes are best. Why?

I missed that post. Nevertheless, my second point stands.

Second time you have done this and that makes me nervous.

He's probably reading it in a different tone than I am. I see someone going "hey we played a game together and now we're both here, cool". Maybe Yos saw more seriousness? I dunno. That's my best guess, but it definitely didn't come off as aggressive to me. I also don't think aggression is a town tell though, so meh.

What I was trying to get at is that I think Yos' reasons for town reading ABR are BS. I think it's an early read to try and pocket ABR (and I think it's working). I don't think scum!Yos reads scum!ABR like that, I think he would try and flesh out the read a little more. I think this is scum!Yos trying to pocket town!ABR and nullify a potential threat to him. The fact he stated that ABR could easily manipulate the meta but still called him town felt all kinds of wrong to me as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it. You claimed it was "unnecessary" which it clearly was not since i didn't know who to vote for until i went back and read everyone's comments in ISO and made a list of who i liked. I suppose i didn't have to share the list, but i think it's helpful to be transparent about your reads. And you claimed i was "trying to look like I was doing things" which is silly, i was certanly doing more "things" then many other people in the game at the time.

I see, so what you're saying is I said your reads-list was unnecessary, random, an attempt to look like you had reads (look pro-town) and an attempt to look busy (pro-town) but none of those constitute as problems to you? OK then.

That's the whole point, there was no need for you to share that reads-list at that point in the game. Page 4 reads-lists aren't worth shit.

Except that was an awesome list, especally for page 4. And I notice you still can't say anything specific against it.

Except for all that stuff you just wrote about? OK.

I posted it because it's good to share your reads with the rest if the town. Reasons are less important then what the reads are.

No, it isn't. It's quite easy to infer people's reads from the way they talk about/to people. Reads-lists simply are not needed.

Consistency is a scum tell.

No, it really isn't. Reading different people differently for the same actions is scummy and shows a flaw in your thought process.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. You think AI is scum? Can you explain why?

I could do, but I'm much more interested in getting you lynched right now.

ok at this point i could lynch either ai or yos today, nostalgia be damned. they're both scum.

You should absolutely join the Yos wagon.

How about Yosarian + KMD?

You seem to think Yos has a decent chance of being scum and if I remember correctly you spoke earlier about bigger wagon being more effective than one vote wagons? How about you join the Yos wagon?

Did you miss the part where I townread half the people in the game on page 4? I mean, obviously not since that's the excuse you gave for voting me.

You can't make your mind up can you. Depending on what you're talking about, your top half was 'town reads' or it was 'people who had something you liked', you can't just chop and change your opinion depending on what argument you want to try and present.

But that doesn't at all explain your reaction, which was much stronger then that and really made no sense at all, especally since you are not a newbie.

Why doesn't it explain the action? You expected to be attacked for your reads-list, and I attacked you. That seems quite a natural flow of events.

Not all scum play that way, of course. Did you really think that I was saying no scum are ever active, or that all scum have the exact same playstyle?

Scum are at least somewhat more likely then town to lurk and/or try to stay out of the spotlight. That is simply true. Of course some town lurk, and of course some scum are active and aggressive.

You attempt to find "contradictions" where there clearly aren't any is not really making you look better.

Of course you have to state that, otherwise you would have no reasons for thinking I am scum (even though you're still yet to put your vote where your mouth is).

There are clearly contradictions in your posts and how they correlate to your reads. I just showed you one.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Lucky is still our best bet for a scum flip.

I think Yosarian-BBT is town-town right now.

ABR, I really don't want to lynch you on day two when Yosarian flips scum. You should be on this wagon.

Why is Lucky scum? You keep ignoring me when I'm asking you to explain your reads.

snip

You have still ignored my questions from earlier on, can you get around to them?

I don't understand the whole problem with Yos scum hunting by town hunting. Doesn't everyone do that to some extent?

There is no problem with Yosarian town hunting, it's a valid technique. I think you have misunderstood the reasoning for my read.

Hmm. I could actually see that. And ABR is tunnely so getting on his good side is definitely beneficial for scum. That's entirely possible. What do you think about my response though? That he may have read it in a different tone? Do you think that's possible or are you pretty convinced your theory is accurate?

Yeah, I don't understand how he read it as aggression. I can't think of the right word to explain it but I felt like ABR was just being dramatic for effect, it wasn't serious posting.

I understand people can read posts in different ways but I don't know how he could read that as aggression.

Anen, why won't you join the Yos wagon?

People who haven't yet given an opinion on Yos should do so now as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So what's your read on Yos? Town, unless AI is scum and then Yos is scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you disagree with my reasons for scum reading Yos?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

An investigation can confirm anyone, I see that as no reason to not pursue his lynch today.

Yeah, your read on Lucky didn't make much sense to me. It read like you thought he was worried about you scum reading him and was feigning paranoia? I don't see that if that's what you think was happening.

I think if AI is scum he will be much easier to catch than Yos. I much prefer a Yos lynch Today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, I'm bored of going around in circles with you and having to deal with your flat out false statements/accusations.

I'll just wait for you to eat rope and then gloat.

If anybody else does not understand my scum read on Yos I will gladly explain it one more time; though I feel I have already been more than clear on it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shadow you should join the Yos wagon.

Kop, you should bus your buddy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sure thing boss.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Your response to my case has been awful and you should feel bad for it.

TO THE CHOPPING BLOCK!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is it hard to leave the thread when you're scum and under pressure?

Always have that feeling that you need to defend yourself in case you get lynched while you're away?

Fortunately, I can help you. Let me relieve that pressure by tying this rope gently around your neck...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thoughts on Yos Lucky?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Prodge. I'll be here tonight/tomorrow and I'm not happy to see the Yos wagon has evaporated.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Prodge. Fuck.

Soon, I promise.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't like BBT not replying to Yos' case but the case wasn't that great to begin with. I know this sucks, but I could go either way on both players.

There really wasn't anything to respond to. Yos just keeps throwing out false accusations, not much I can do about that.

Look at his word choices. He keeps saying stuff like "page 4 reads are shit" and going way out of his way to try to discredit that list. He's not just trying to lynch me, he's trying to lynch me and to discredit that list.

Ah, now I understand what you were trying to get me to do. I wondered why you kept asking me to attack your list, it didn't seem right. But I see now that you were trying to get me to do it so you could use this attack on me and say I was trying to discredit your reads. I didn't fall into line for you so you've decided to just go ahead and use it anyway. That's actually pretty well thought out but shows a CLEAR scum motivation behind what you were trying to do.

Just to clarify, not once have I attempted to discredit Yosarian's reads-list. I think I might have questioned him on some of the reads, but I have not tried to discredit them. The main reason for my scum read was the timing and purpose of Yos' reads list. Yos, however, was trying to take me down that avenue of discrediting him and his reads with posts like this;

Spoiler: Scum posts

Not only that, it makes me think that if you do flip scum, that probably most or all of your scum team is also on that scum list I posted, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to discredit me.

So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it.

So no, you really didn't give any real reasons, other then an apparent dislike of lists.

And I notice you still can't say anything specific against it.

None of those statements have anything to do with my list in specific or my play in general.

You don't really believe lists are scummy, and you can't explain why mine was without vague generalities that don't make sense in this context.

Look at how Yos is attempting to get me to directly discredit either him or his reads when I was more than clear about what my problems with Yos were. He is trying to set me up for a fall, and when it doesn't work, he goes ahead and attacks me with it anyway. This shows pretty clear scum motivation behind Yos' posting in his attempts to try and set up an attack on me.

He probably really believes hes going to get me lynched today. He's wrong, I'm not that easy to mislynch, but he doesn't know me that well. So if he really thought i was going to flip scum, then he wouldn't need to discredit my reads like that. But I think he knows I'm going to flip town, so he wants to discredit my reads as well.

I laughed when I read this because I also remembered you saying this;

I always seem to get mislynched as town for no fucking reason these days and it pisses me off.

So you're not easy to 'mislynch' but you always get mislynched? Looks like that AtE worked out for you in the end, huh?

Yos is pretty fucking clearly scum here so what the fuck happened to the wagon on him?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

unvote, vote: always innocent

ftr kmd is still a scumread and he is still looking very scumbuddytastic with always innocent. i also hate the whole paragraph above that starts with "for those wondering..." about yos and bbt, it's so scummy i want to barf. yos and bbt both town? i am actually coming on board with that conclusion a bit right now. yos really needs to ignore bbt and do something else with his time right now though i'm not reading any more of that back and forth.

I don't get your Kmd scum read and I have no idea why your read on Yos was starting to change to a town read. Can you elaborate on both please?

KMD: looking back, i think this was the post that gave me a good vibe on ABR in the first few pages.

So you want me to town it up for yall or am I playing my normal scummy game?

Maybe agressive wasn't quite the right word. Provocative? Deliberately challanging? Whatever. Just the kind of post I'd expect town ABR to make to try to get a reaction. Not the kind of joke you'd expect scum to make.

So the reason for your ABR town read has changed now? Because previously it was based on him picking fights, and now that I have shown that to be false, you have produced a brand new reason? Just gotta keep ABR on your good side, right?

KMD: This was what I said.

ABR is basically playing in his normal meta. Loud, obnoxious, picking fights. It's basically how I expect town-ABR to act. It's not really an alignment tell, he could do that as either alignment, but I haven't seen any red flags from him yet.

I don't think I ever actually called ABR "aggressive".

And now we're going into semantics. You're so fucking scummy it's actually killing me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Meh. I don't know about Yosarian anymore. After skimming through his ISO a bit, my impression of him is different. Perhaps I was too paranoid when he was townreading me.

UNVOTE: Yosarian

What did you see in his ISO that made you change your mind?

This makes sense. Only way this is wrong is if the two are both scum. And if they are, there is no reason for scum-Yos to comment on it like he did. Yos is town people.

UNVOTE:

I don't get the unvote at all? You think Yos is no longer scum because he has provided reasoning for a town read?

unvote

VOTE: AlwaysInnocent

I still think yos might be the better play (given the yos/AI interactions earlier) but it's time to apply pressure on AI. Also, Anen and rofl are my two strongest townreads, so I'm comfortable with this.

If you think Yos is the better play then you really need to be on that wagon. You STILL haven't answered my questions from earlier and I'm losing patience now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There is a very clear difference in what I was saying, of course, I don't expect you to understand it. (Or at least admit to understanding it)

PEdit - Is it scummy as fuck because you said so or is there any reason for it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, I quoted your own posts to make my point and you claim you're confused.

Do you not understand your own points? It's not me saying I haven't attacked your reads list specifically, it's you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Of course you disappear mid conversation now. You're not under pressure any more.

This is ridiculous. I've never had so much trouble lynching scum before.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, you claimed I was trying to discredit you. Which I wasn't. I very clearly explained my problem with your reads-list.

You insisted on trying to make me discredit you, I didn't fall for it, but then you attacked me anyway saying all I was trying to do was discredit you. You're flat out lying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Right, but the reasoning for your town read on Albert has changed and I showed that in my post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh my God.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll tell you what Yos.

I'm never, ever, ever, ever taking my vote off you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Are you seriously trying to meta me from one game ABR?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

ABR, why do you want me to stop pushing scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hold on, why should I have stopped?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

ABR, you've seen me tunnel as both alignments so I'm confused as to how you have arrived at your read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll finish catching up and respond at some point.

I'm absolutely astonished nobody is seeing what I'm seeing. I feel like I have taken crazy pills and entered a different world.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Catching up

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I only voted BTT yesterday, and a number of people haven't even posted since I made my case against him.

You don't have a case on me. You called my scum read on you bullshit and voted me. That's not a case.

I don't think BBT's total focus on Yos is pro-town. Yos, at least, is commenting on others.

That's untrue, I have commented/interacted with a number of players outside of Yos. Yos is my primary focus though, yeah.

I kind of agree with Shaddowez there, so I will be joining the Lowell wagon.

VOTE: Lowell

This feel town...too brazen for scum. Vote isn't 'fleshed out' enough.

His second post into the thread, he claimed BBT was town but took several posts to actually state why. Early game tells me, especially with there not being a lot of interaction or serious posts, it is hard to say someone is town with such confidence that Lowell did, on this occasion. I have never town read someone so early, even if some of there early posting shows town points.

Yet Yos had 5 town read by page 4 and you had no problem with that?

Kop

, it seems to me that you took Lowell's comment way out of context, leaving off entirely the part about it won't backfire.

This is a really good post.

I did have a quick glance over the Yos Vs BBT, I'd struggle to figure out who would be scum in that situation, because it feels town vs town. But I will go over the whole thing again in a few hours, once I've done all my bits and bobs.

Have you done this yet? What makes you think it's town vs town?

toffee the yos wagon is dead time for you to get on the ai wagon

It isn't. I'm not leaving my #1 scum read until I have to. You really need to read my latest post on Yos and rejoin this wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I simply can't imagine a scum asking that. (Although I haven't got the slightest idea what "proxy a vote" means.)

I know Kmd pulled this up but I'm parroting it. I find it super strange that you're town reading someone when you don't even understand what you're town reading them for.

BBT

- Outside of the lists and disagreeing on how things works, what are you seeing that's scummy about Yos that it's worth having your vote parked there?

I actually want to smash my face into a brick wall. What you basically just said was 'Outside of your reasons for scum reading Yos, do you have any reason to believe he is scum'. What the fuck? You should go back to my latest pot about Yos, read it, then vote him.

In your 248 your scumpool was Lucky and Lowell. Has it changed?

This post just pinged me hard.

This feels like a roundabout way of asking ABR if he is scum reading you. That's scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree that BBT's early game was not so much of a tunnel. And tunneling is not necessarily scummy; plenty of townies do it, but I'd almost never call it pro-town.

You know what one of the worst things about this game is? Catching scum early and then letting them go because something else caught your eye. The amount of times I have been all over scum early game only to see another post catch my attention, change direction, end up lynching town and forgetting about my earlier scum read is unreal.

I refuse to keep making the same mistakes over and over. I admit a lot of my attention is focused on Yos, but I'm pretty fucking sure he is scum. I have other reads, I don't think it's too difficult to infer what they are from my posts that are not about Yos.

Yeah, abr is pretty obvtown at this point.

ABR pocketed? Check.
ABR joined the wagon I'm pushing? Check.
Keep on ABR's goodside by repeatedly stating how town he is. Check.

If I don't manage to lynch Yos today and either I, or ABR, get killed N1. Please fucking lynch this.

The list was literally the only real thing you attacked me for. That was your entire case. That is all you had. And now you're claiming I was "trying to get you to attack your list?"

Just wanna go over this one more time because I'm either not explaining myself well or people just are not reading closely enough (I know this happens a lot when there is a 1v1 going on.)

Correct, I attacked your reads-list. I attacked your reads-list for the timing of it and the purpose I believed was the reason for you posting it. You tried to change the reasoning behind my attack, you tried to say I was trying to discredit you and your reads. That's not what I was doing.

You continued to try, by asking leading questions, to get me to attack your reads or the list itself. When I didn't do either, you just started stating that's what I was attacking anyway.

Your posts were very calculated. You tried to steer me in a direction and manipulate my posts in a way in which you could attack me for it. That's not how town work, that's scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Basically, it looks like you're faking a super-obsessed-tunnel on me because you think that tunneling will make you look pro-town, even though you don't really seem to have any real reasons for voting me. If you were town you'd either be making a real argument against me or else you'd have changed targets by now.

Yeah, tunneling is always seen as pro town

I have made an argument, a very good argument, but people don't seem to be reading it closely enough.

This makes sense to me.

VOTE: BBT

This is a bad vote and you should feel bad for it.

Yeah, I'm with Yos on the most recent Yos/BBT exchange. BBT calling Yos' posts an attempt to discredit feels ridiculously manipulative. I like Yos' post 531 and think BBT should do that. It should be easy if he's so sure Yos is scum. If BBT is town though, I don't like Tex's sheep vote.

I didn't say Yos' posts were an attempt to discredit me - you're not reading closely enough. Yos is accusing ME of trying to DISCREDIT him, I'm saying he made a calculated attack on my posts and the direction he was trying to steer me in.

I've had a long-running assumption that BBT is town. But all right, I guess I'll reexamine that. 531 makes an interesting point. And I agree with AI's 543.

Oh, you will? How about you answer my question from page 5 or whatever it was?

I know for a fact that he takes other players' opinions into account, plays strategically, knows what lynches can and can't be done, etc.

He's only interested in engaging Yosarian with weak ass arguments. He looks like he's holding on to his positions tightly instead of evolving reads. I'm pretty sure he's scum, seen him do the same thing before.

This doesn't make sense. Let's talk about it some more.

Are you talking about town BBT or scum BBT here? Also, you didn't answer my question; I asked if you had ever seen me tunnel as town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Don't really recall. I could iso myself but that's bullshit. I think I just had an early read on him as playing townish. But I'm starting to buy what ABR is selling, I think. And it does fit with what scum might do: (1) jump in early, get ppl to say you're town; (2) do nothing else; (3) win. So as I said I'll reconsider.

(2) Do nothing...funniest shit I have read in this thread. Seriously.

BBT, I don't remember you being this tunnely...

I tunnel as either alignment.

Explain.

I just did. He hopped aboard the wagon very nonchalant. I don't think he would do that as scum, it just looks too obvious. Scum tend to flesh their votes out more so they look more legit when people revisit them after flips, I'm not seeing that from AI.

What counts as "have to"?

Either I'm in danger of being lynched or we're running out of time.

I f-cking don't care whether ABR scumreads me. I wanted (and want) to get a read on him, which is hard because of his posting style. I'd say he's town, but only because of his style, and someone pointed out that it would be insufficient reasoning to townread him, especially because I hadn't seen his scum-game yet.
Also, it's disappointing that he didn't answer that post. Had he done so, I could have seen whether his reads were/are consistent.
His recent push and vote on you is strange, too. (And as for this, it lacks consistency!) Yet again, I want to know (1) he's scumreading for real reasons (2) he's misreading you or (3) he's faking.

OK, I agree that ABR can be difficult to read (I'm pretty sure he has tricked me before) but I still don't like the way you phrased that post. I mean, if you were looking for consistency in his reads, why didn't you ask who he thought was scum on the wagon? Why provide him with his previous reads and thus give him a much lower chance of slipping up? It doesn't really make sense.

And your read on ABR is...?

I feel like he is town but I want to scum read him out of frustration. I have no problems admitting that I struggle to read ABR (as I do with most people who post one-liners a lot of the time) but it feels like he is town this game. I don't think he would go after me as scum.

Calculated?

Yeah, I have explained why. On numerous occasions.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, this is terrible. Especially since it's factually wrong; when I called ABR obvtown, he was not on the wagon I was pushing, and in fact had just basically called me an idiot who was hurting the game by continuing to push your wagon. You're quoting post 509 here, and ABR didn't vote for you until 520, after you had finally stopped lurking and made some fresh posts.

I didn't say he was, that was mostly tongue in cheek. The main point is, and I'm sure you understood this, you have pocketed ABR. He is no threat to you today and I think that would be an aim for you if you were scum. I couldn't understand your initial town read on him, when you explained it, I showed you that you were incorrect for town reading him for them reasons. Did you reevaluate? No. You kept him as town and started producing different reasons for your read. It all felt off, it's not what I would expect town to do.

I mean, do you disagree with my town read on ABR? Because it would be incredibly scummy for you to attack me for town reading ABR if you are also town reading ABR here. If you don't agree with me about ABR, then explain why you don't agree and I'd be glad to discuss it.

I'm pretty sure you will have read a previous post of mine in which I state my read on ABR. I can attack someone's reasoning for town reading someone if I don't think they are legit; even if I'm town reading that same person. What you just said is a load of nonsense.

I speculated about the motives behind your attack on my reads-list, which is a little different then "changing the reasoning". If you are scum, then you probably have other motives for the things you do beyond the surface ones, and I was speculating about that.

You didn't need to speculate, I outright told you what my reasons were.

In any case, that speculation wasn't terribly important at this point in the game; it'll be useful after you get lynched, assuming you flip scum, to help us find your buddies, but it wasn't the basis of my suspicion on you.

Of course it was. I attacked you for reasoning A, B and C. You then tried to spin that attack into reasons D, E and F which is obviously not the same thing. If I had gone along with what you said, you then would have accused me of trying to discredit you and your reads (which was not my reasoning).

But your attack didn't make a lot of sense anyway. There's nothing wrong with having a bunch of weak town reads on page 4, and there's nothing wrong with sharing your reads with the rest of the town, and there's nothing wrong with doing it as a list instead of in some other way. Frankly, I don't even see how any of those things could be considered anti-town. I keep pointing this out, and you keep basically avoiding discussing it in any meaningful way, even though it is supposedly the whole basis for your read on me.

Correct, there is nothing wrong with having a bunch of weak town reads on page 4. There is EVERYTHING wrong with sharing them, there is no need to. Your reads will change within 2 pages at that point of the game and then your old reads become redundant very quickly. The only reasoning to share reads at that stage is to look 'pro-town'. You look like you have genuine reads and are trying to solve the game. It's pretty much summed up by LAMIST.

BBT, I just don't understand how you can be so confident in your Yos read, given the slim amount of evidence. It smells off to me.

I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm always 100% confident. Even if I'm only 50/50 on someone, I'm 100% confident. There is no point in tip-toeing around people, subtly is not my forte. If something pings me, I push it and I push it hard, then I gauge my read further based on their reaction to my pushing.

Yos' reaction to my push wasn't great. He was twisting my attack into something it wasn't, his reasoning for his read on ABR was inconsistent, he went straight on the defensive (which isn't always scummy, but in this case it is, because of how long it took him to come around to his 'read'), he AtE hugely (when he started talking about how he always gets mislynched) and then this changed into a sudden confidence that he would not be getting lynched. Everything about his reaction is pinging me and that has strengthened my read on him considerably.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

His AtE (appeal to emotion) is where he starts shouting about how he always gets mislynched and life is so unfair to him (disclaimer - he didn't say the last part).

He was basically all like why are people voting me? I'm being so pro town, what is going on? I'm trying so hard and getting voted and I always get mislynched. Staaahhhp guys. (disclaimer - he didn't say the last part)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Every time you start doing this, it feels like you're trying to be manipulative scum and trying to put two town people at odds with each other. If my town read of ABR in post 509 makes sense to you, then you trying to invent a scum motive for it really just looks like you're trying to be manipulative, especally when you use emotionally manipulative language like "in your pocket".

I'm going to lose my fucking shit with you in a minute.

I did not say your read made sense to me.

Read;

I'm pretty sure you will have read a previous post of mine in which I state my read on ABR. I can attack someone's reasoning for town reading someone

if I don't think they are legit

; even if I'm town reading that same person. What you just said is a load of nonsense.

You keep twisting everything I say. How the fuck is nobody seeing what you're doing?

Now, if you want me to explain yet again why i had a weak town read on abr on my page 4 list, I can do that, but it just seems bizzare when you are simultaniously claiming that you "are not attacking my reads on my page 4 list". I mean, it was an early game weak town read, based on a good vibe I got from one of his posts. When I have to explain it it's obviously going to sound vague and fuzzy, because that's how early game gut reads work.

I also feel like you're trying to manipulate me into explaining my early game town read on ABR over and over again, just so you can claim I'm buddying him.

What a load of shit, if your reasoning for your read didn't keep changing I would have to keep questioning it. I very clearly stated I questioned how you arrived at some of your reads; this is not discrediting. Was I discrediting your reads list? No. Am I discrediting your read on ABR? Yeah I am, because I don't believe it is legit but this was not my original problem and this is exactly the route you have been trying to take me down and I feel dumb for letting you take me down it.

Especially since even while you're claiming you're "not attacking me for the reads on my list, just the timing of my list", you are literally doing the exact opposite in terms of ABR at the exact same time.

Yeah, I fell for your trap. Well fucking done, you've frustrated me and I've allowed you to steer the conversation where you have been wanting it to go since we started. This is explained above and I've had enough now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anen is town.

Will read game thoroughly tomorrow.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anen, you're town because you're not on my wagon. I'm flavour of the month at the moment, and maybe this is slightly egotistical, but I think scum!Anen wouls jump at the chance to lynch me.

You could quite easily join my wagon and yet you still think I am town.

ABR, you used that affinity against me the last time we played and completely fooled me. Remember that? What makes you think I would be so trusting this time around?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's because you don't know the history between the two of us.

Scum!Anen does not like playing against town BBT.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll try and get to this after the football.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, getting to this now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was starting to come around to this too until I saw the votecount. You think we'd get 8 votes on scum? Usually seems like one of two leading wagons is scum, but not both.

Your read continues to change and you still haven't said why.

You also, STILL, haven't answered my question from earlier in the game. This is only my 178th time of asking.

I think it is best for town to resolve BBT v Yos earlier rather than later.

That's pretty scummy. In a game where we can investigate people you want to lynch someone to decide a 1v1? Sounds like pretty shitty reasoning to me.

I just don't see the problem that BBT picked upon it, and why he has made such a big deal from it, even though he did say he agreed with it.

I feel like I have explained it as best I can. I'll just save it all up for post game.

Bad experiences with people quickhammering.

Don't like this. This Day has been going on for long enough now and you're afraid of a 'quickhammer'? If AI flips scum, I'll be looking at you closely.

No, actually, you were much softer as scum. Although I've seen you as scum only once before and I was scum too in that game.

I can assure you I'm not 'soft' as scum.

I've seen scums hopping on wagons with little-to-none reasoning.

Not newb-scum you haven't.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It is typical for scum to keep nagging about some question that needs to be answered, even though you aren't truly interested.

Can you tell me how you assess how 'interested' someone is about getting answers. I mean, all they can do is ask for their question to be answered so I'm intrigued as to what else you think he should be doing.

BBT stop your crusade.

If I'm caught up and I'm still all alone on the Yos wagon with little time on the deadline, I'll move. If I have time however, I'm happy to wait it out.

This is not a good reason to town-read him. Lots of WIFOM involved.

It really is. Some people don't like playing with other people - I always go after Thor when I'm scum because I worry about him catching me so I push him first. I think scum!Anen would take the first opportunity presented to him to lynch me.

Fuck this shit.

VOTE: BBT

Well, shit. I have no idea what to make of that.

I don't agree with these, at all. Scum may do it just to get town cred by listening to other people. Additionally, with the amount of people reading Yos as town, if BBT were scum wouldn't it make more sense for him to try for more low hanging fruit at this point then continuing to push on his read?

Disagree with the last part, I personally would 100% have continued pushing Yos if I was scum here. The first point is pretty good though.

He looks like he's holding on to his positions tightly instead of evolving reads.

This I do agree with, at least when it pertains to Yos.

People keep saying this and I don't get it. My reads should be clear to infer from my posting - if not, you know, you can always ask if you're unsure about something.

Should I do something pro-town, like I don't know... a reads-list?

Powerlynched? I prefer a hyperlynch.

Also you are scum.

The amount of people you have called scum in this game is astounding.

I want to keep you around but you're not scumhunting, you're tunneling.

If you want to keep me around, then take your vote off of me. I was tunneling, yes, but I was/am still interacting with other players. I feel like purposefully cutting off my catch up posts is biting me in the ass here.

-He keeps his interactions and accusations low enough to not attach himself to anyone

Tunnelling on town and not getting flak for it is a great strategy. Scumhunting and changing reads is hard.

I don't believe for a second you rate my scum game that poorly. Worried about interacting with buddies? Having dificulty scum hunting and changing reads? Come on ABR...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scum team: BTT+shaddowez+Lucky? Or is that too easy?

Too easy.

But, if BBT is scum (this guy is hard too read), then I assume that Yosarian is town. I don't agree with his hypothetical scum team, but perhaps it is genuine.

I'm hard to read but your top scum read? Logic.

That's a terrible reason for townreading me.
What about Boonie's?

What about it? I'm surprised you disagree with me and am already beginning to doubt my town read. Would be funny if after all my talk of pocketing you had pocketed me. Funny in a 'I want to kill myself' kind of way.

This looks an awful lot like a townslip to me.

Not really...

I genuinely haven't laughed that hard at a post for a long time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Let it go KMD. The guy is town. If you really have such a bone to pick with him, let it roll and follow up tomorrow. Lynching him after this exchange would be mindbogglingly dumb. Don't look this gift horse in the mouth today.

So much this.

I'm buying AI as town based on the last three pages.

And to prove I can flip-flop with the best of them, I'm also all-in on ABR's case on BBT. No one iso me, it's embarrassing.

UNVOTE: AI
VOTE: BBT

Yeah, second scum found.

This will be an easy game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Day 1, Votecount 18

BlueBloodedToffee (5): Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage, texcat, AlwaysInnocent, Lowell

AlwaysInnocent (3): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, roflcopter
Lowell (2): shaddowez, Kop
Yosarian2 (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (2):

acryon, Aneninen

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch or to no lynch.

Deadline

: Saturday January 9, 2016 11:30 AM  New York Time. (GMT-5)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2016-01-09 11:30:00)

Both leading wagons on town. Bad times. On the plus side, it's super obvious who the scum are in my wagon.

I'm buying ABR's overall logic, which I paraphrase as: jump in early, look town, tunnel on one person who isn't a major lynch target, sit back and profit.

This sit back bullshit that people are trying to push - I'm pretty sure I'm one of the highest posters in this game despite not having the time nor motivation to play.

That's ok, yos and bbt got to have this BS day to themselves, I'll look forward to tomorrow.

This is town.

I'll try and get to this after the football.

This is also town. Super town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Unvote, Vote texcat

New wagon

GOGOGO

There are better options.

If you meant to ask me who my next desired wagon would be, between Lowell

This is the better option.

I still think that BBT is the best lynch. His tunnel of Yos is scummy. The resistance to his wagon increases my scum read on him. If he were town, scum would have jumped on his wagon and he'd be dead by now. Lynching BBT would resolve the situation and give us a ton of info.

My other scum reads are Kop, and now an OMGUS read of KMD.

Tunneling isn't scummy. Resistance to my wagon...you serious? You seen the resistance to Yos' wagon? What a crap reason (I'm in no way saying Yos is scum because of resistance to his wagon by the way, just pointing out how bad this comment is.)

Tex, what makes you so sure scum are not already on my wagon?

Looks like scum going after low hanging fruit in order to prevent scum buddy BBT's lynch.

The low hanging fruit is me...you had 0 votes.

i'm around to hammer toffee otherwise i'm leaving my vote on ai and not really paying attention overall right now

scum can kill me tonight i won't even be mad

You're not hammering me.

And BBT has gone back to low-profile mode, maybe hoping this wagon on him blows over.

BBT:Looks lime you're not going to get me lynched today. What's your second choice? Who do you think we should lynch right now?

I'm really sorry I don't have the time to be posting all the time. Shall I quit my job to play?

Lowell is by far and away the second best choice.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was hoping to hear what BBT had to say on all of this first, because I'm not sure a tex wagon is feasible this late, but I suppose it can't hurt.

VOTE: texcat

I don't think Tex is the choice for Today, she has some good posts. Lowell is the lynch if not Yos.

If it definitely looks like that won't happen by later today, I'll move my vote to tex.

Lowell looks like a fantastic choice.

Rofl, what is your read on Tex? Any chance I can get your vote?

Preview edit: BBT, your name would look great on a Tex wagon.

Can't do it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

somebody put him at l-1 so i can hammer?

Don't be so silly.

toffee is this the first time you've given an actual scumread that wasn't yos?

because that's absurd

No, you haven't been reading. I have offered plenty outside of Yos.

i'm convinced bbt should have done something today aside from harp on what yos did on page 4 and then argue about it for 30 pages

This is false and you should feel bad.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Lowell

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Really? I finish catching up and everyone disappears?

Man, that's cold.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

PAGETOP ANNOUNCEMENT

People should be voting Lowell. He is a great lynch choice for Today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

WIFOM?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I know what WIFOM is.

Why is it WIFOM?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ah, I see.

How terribly clever of me.

Shall we get to lynching Lowell then?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Acryon, vote Lowell please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You see his jump on reverse of his read on me?

Plus, you know, he been ignoring my questions since like page 5 or something.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Jump on my wagon and his reverse in read on me*

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, look ABR, you could save yourself the mislynch today and just vote Lowell.

I'm sure I'm a prime target for a cop and that will clear everything up tomorrow.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

LOL. Yos isn't town.

But I can settle for Lowell.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh yeah, sure.

Yos is town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I understand.

I will wait for town to catch onto it and then I will be the hammer vote. I won't say a word about him.

I might laugh when I hammer though. But that's it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm glad I could bring joy to your life

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll be here soon.

Surprised we haven't lycnhed Lowell yet tbh

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Tex

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think that's L-1

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT is not getting lynched

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll only be here for an hour or so. Going to a footy match that starts at 3.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anen, hammer Tex.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT wagon should be at 0.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you just clarify why you think I'm scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Will be around for another hour or so.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll be here in a few hours.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

vote: lucky

Didn't expect this.

Two things jump out at me:

Kop kept his vote on Lowell for a long time. Lowell now looks more town.

Agree with this.

Kop tried really, really hard to convince everyone that Yos vs BBT was "town vs town", and to argue against anyone who wanted to lynch BBT. He had a big debate with Anen about that in one of his last posts.

Obv disagree with this. I think you're exaggerating the amount of effort Kop put into that, and either way, he could quite easily have just been defending you as he was defending me.

Furthermore, as someone else pointed out, if you are in fact town, it was best for Kop to stay to the side and let us go at it.

toffee is obvscum too though

You should stop this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

unvote, vote: toffee

This I expected.

So calling you vs BBT town vs town twice and saying BBT being an info lynch sucks = doing everything he can to discourage people from lynching BBT, specifically? Even with 22 posts, that's not much. Could the arguement be made that he didn't want you lynched either? BBT only got one mention without you and it was when a BBT lynch was being discussed. I mean, yeah I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it's because your word choice feels like hyperbole and it's not the first time I've felt that way about you this game.

I'm really not sure how I feel about Kmd defending me despite not town reading me the last I knew.

and he put Lucky on his scum list. And that's literally all he did.

Lucky could be scum.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Has to be the vote here I think. The tex wagon looks like a textbook counterwagon after the AI one failed to combat the BBT wagon.

This game becomes infinitely harder when everyone is attacking me and I'm paranoid about the person who is defending me.

I'm inclined to agree that Kop/BBT make sense as a scum team, but don't want to actually but Toffee at L-1 as I don't want a quickhammer occurring.

Can you not do this? Like, all of my town reads think I'm scum.

What's your reasoning for kmd scum? I did notice he was the leading vote on both of the late day wagons D1, which happened to both be conf town now.

started the texcat wagon out of the clear blue sky while pushing up against deadline with toffee in immediate danger of becoming the lynch. and he's just generally scummy, i've been suspicious of him since p much the beginning.

Yeah, Kmd could be scum.

reposting because dead townie texcat was right on the money

Except for she wasn't? Low hanging fruit is not someone who has 0 votes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I'm caught up.

I'm going to reread Kop's ISO and then I'm going to do some VCA.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is going to be a short day phase.

Umm, I need like 24 hours to do what I need to do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so Kop's ISO.

461 is unlikely to be a bus so town points for Lowell. 470 makes it likely that Lucky could be scum, typical scum tactic of fos buddy, vote town.

That's pretty much the main part of Kop's ISO which is pretty shitty, he barely interacted with anyone or did anything. It does, however, highlight how much Yos has exaggerated Kop's posting in order to justify his continued vote on me. Yos should be looked at after my lynch.

OK, onto some VCA.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, I don't know what's happening here.

I'm copying/pasting my post into here and for some reason it's saying my message doesn't have enough characters and it won't let me post. WTF?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mod? Never seen anything like this before, don't know what to do.

It's letting me post as long as I haven't copied in the VCs. Even if I attach a load of nonsense onto the end of my post it still won't let me submit it.

~.Ill send Thesp a note ~~~.Zar

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spoiler: Coloured D1 VCs

Day 1, Votecount 4, Ammended

AlwaysInnocent

(4): Aneninen, roflcopter, Kmd4390, Lucky2u
Yosarian2 (3): BlueBloodedToffee, acryon, Lowell
Lucky2u (2): Yosarian2,

Albert B. Rampage

Kmd4390 (1):

AlwaysInnocent

texcat

(1):

Kop

Not Voting (2):

texcat, shaddowez

Day 1, Votecount 5, Ammended

Yosarian2 (5): BlueBloodedToffee, acryon, Lowell, roflcopter,

AlwaysInnocent

AlwaysInnocent

(3): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, Aneninen
BlueBloodedToffee (1): Yosarian2
Lucky2u (1):

Albert B. Rampage

texcat

(1):

Kop

Not Voting (2):

texcat

, shaddowez

Day 1, Votecount 7, Ammended

AlwaysInnocent

(4): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, Aneninen, roflcopter
Yosarian2 (2): BlueBloodedToffee, Lowell
BlueBloodedToffee (1): Yosarian2
Lucky2u (1):

Albert B. Rampage

texcat

(1):

Kop

Not Voting (4):

texcat

, shaddowez,

AlwaysInnocent

, acryon

Day 1, Votecount 8, Ammended

AlwaysInnocent

(5): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, Aneninen, roflcopter, Lowell

BlueBloodedToffee (1): Yosarian2
Lucky2u (1):

Albert B. Rampage

texcat

(1):

Kop

Yosarian2 (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (4):

texcat

, shaddowez,

AlwaysInnocent

, acryon

Day 1, Votecount 9, Ammended

AlwaysInnocent

(5): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, Aneninen, roflcopter, Lowell
Lowell (3): shaddowez,

AlwaysInnocent

,

Kop

BlueBloodedToffee (1): Yosarian2
Lucky2u (1):

Albert B. Rampage

Yosarian2 (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (2):

texcat

, acryon

Day 1, Votecount 14

AlwaysInnocent

(5): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, Aneninen, roflcopter, Lowell
BlueBloodedToffee (3): Yosarian2,

Albert B. Rampage

,

texcat

Lowell (3): shaddowez,

AlwaysInnocent

,

Kop

Yosarian2 (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (1):

acryon

Day 1, Votecount 18

BlueBloodedToffee (5): Yosarian2,

Albert B. Rampage, texcat, AlwaysInnocent

, Lowell

AlwaysInnocent

(3): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, roflcopter
Lowell (2): shaddowez,

Kop

Yosarian2 (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (2):

acryon, Aneninen

Day 1, Votecount 20

BlueBloodedToffee (4): Yosarian2,

texcat, AlwaysInnocent

, Lowell
Lowell (4): shaddowez,

Kop

, BlueBloodedToffee,

Albert B. Rampage

texcat

(3): Kmd4390, acryon, Lucky2u
Lucky2u (1): Aneninen

Not Voting (1):

roflcopter

Day 1, Votecount 21

texcat

(5): Kmd4390, Lucky2u,

Albert B. Rampage

, shaddowez, Lowell
BlueBloodedToffee (2): Yosarian2,

texcat

Lowell (2):

Kop

, BlueBloodedToffee
Lucky2u (1): Aneninen

Not Voting (3):

roflcopter, acryon,

AlwaysInnocent

Day 1, Votecount 22

texcat

(6): Kmd4390, Lucky2u,

Albert B. Rampage

, shaddowez, Lowell, acryon
BlueBloodedToffee (3): Yosarian2,

texcat

, roflcopter
Lowell (2):

Kop

, BlueBloodedToffee
Lucky2u (1): Aneninen

Not Voting (1):

AlwaysInnocent

Day 1, Votecount 23

texcat

(6): Kmd4390, Lucky2u,

Albert B. Rampage

, shaddowez, Lowell, BlueBloodedToffee
BlueBloodedToffee (5): Yosarian2,

texcat

, roflcopter,

AlwaysInnocent

, acryon
Lowell (1):

Kop

Lucky2u (1): Aneninen

Not Voting (0):

[/color]

<3

Day 1, Votecount 24, End of Day One

texcat

(7): Kmd4390, Lucky2u,

Albert B. Rampage

, shaddowez, Lowell, BlueBloodedToffee, Yosarian2 ~~~ [LYNCH]
BlueBloodedToffee (4):

texcat

, roflcopter,

AlwaysInnocent

, acryon
Lowell (1):

Kop

Lucky2u (1): Aneninen

Not Voting (0):

<3

Can't fix the last VC to make Tex green but fuck it, at least it's posting now. Think it was something to do with area tags?

Analysis coming soon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Gonna try and do this in chunks.

Alright, so VC4 was the first one that caught my attention because we had two competing wagons. The problem with this is we have 0 flipped players on either wagon and that needs to be sorted ASAP, especially as we already know at least one wagon was on town.

People on this wagon; Anen, rofl, Kmd and Lucky. The counter wagon to AI is Yos, and I understand this is a biased view, but that looks like a pretty town driven wagon to me.

VC5 shows that Yos jumped to the leading wagon as rofl and AI jumped on. Already, rofl has been on two major wagons. I'm not really sure how I missed that first time around. If Yos is town, which I still find unlikely, then rofl needs to be looked at. Rofl's vote can be seen in 346, where he states that he believes Yos is scum with AI and is happy to see him hang first. I'm beginning to see that I let things slip from rofl because I was town reading him and I know that is an annoying habit that I have. Why is rofl voting Yos based on AI being scum? Surely it makes sense to lynch AI first if he believes Yos to be scum on the basis that AI is scum.

Onto VC7 and this is where the Yos wagon fell apart. Looking back at the unvotes, Rofl's unvote comes in 415 where he states he is coming around to the idea of Yos Vs BBT as TvT, he jumps back onto another major wagon; AI. I think rofl's vote makes much more sense here but I don't like his flip flopping between the two major wagons. Again, if Yos is town, rofl needs to be looked at.

Acryon joined the Yos wagon in post [/post]210[/post]. His reasoning is pretty weak for wanting to join the wagon, like he questions Yos in 209 but I don't see anything that leads to a scum read?

He later unvotes Yos in 432. This unvote is strange, because it makes it sound like Acryon was voting Yos on the basis that he was scum with AI and I didn't see anything like this in Acryon's ISO? I think he was getting off a wagon that he knows was collapsing, typically people get scum read for staying on particular wagons too long and I think he was trying to avoid exactly that with what I perceive as a weakly reasoned vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Through VC8-9, we see Lowell leave the Yos wagon and move onto the AI wagon; another player shifting between the top two wagons. 437 looks pretty bad from Lowell, this is the second time he is basing his place on a wagon on somebody else's read (he sheeped Acryon onto the Yos wagon, and now he is sheeping Anen and rofl onto the AI wagon.)

Moving onto VC14 and we now have 3 competing wagons, myself, Lowell and AI. Again, we have 5 unflipped players on the AI wagon and that is really starting to make me feel uncomfortable. The problem is that I find it difficult to see Lowell as scum because of how Kop pushed him and how long he sat on that wagon for, but did we really have all 3 leading wagons on town? Man, I find that hard to swallow. It doesn't help that I skimmed a lot of rofl's posting first time around and it also doesn't help that Anen's votes are difficult to analyse because he was pretty much always in catch up mode. I think there is at least one scum in Kmd/Anen/Lucky though, that wagon needs to be looked into. They sat on AI for such a long time.

VC18 looks pretty awful and I'm sure that if I wasn't the person being wagoned I would be pushing for this slots lynch. The wagon doesn't look great because it has 3 conf towns on and it is alongside a conf town wagon. I know I'm town, but I understand it must be difficult for people to look at that VC and think the same - this is probably why it's best that I am lynched to clear that up - I would only be saved for a mislynch later down the line. I hate offering myself to be lynched (might be my first time ever?) because I'm naturally survivalistic and I believe I could be an asset for this town but this VC isn't good and I know it will come back to bite me in the ass later in the game.

Of course, with a scum!Yos or scum!Lowell flip I look a whole lot better, but I don't see that happening this DP. I'm suddenly developing a preference to see Lowell lynched over Yos as well.

Moving onto VC 20 and we see a Tex wagon forming. Both Kmd and Lucky are a part of another competing wagon - one of these two is scum, but not both. It's too blatant, I'd put my money on Lucky flipping scum before Kmd as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Looking at the votes for that Tex wagon, Kmd started it in 743, and initially it had no reasoning. He later expanded on this vote in 758 and I think this is a solid post, it's pretty easy to follow Kmd's thought process on Tex.

Acryon's progression on Tex is scummy though. He questions Kmd's initial case on Tex from the perspective that he thinks Kmd is scummy. 769 is the turnaround from Acryon and I'm not buying that at all; I don't even see the 'first' question he wanted answered. He was quite clearly attacking Kmd's case on Tex and I can't for the life of me work out why he 180'd on that read. 777 comes the vote and it doesn't even feel like he is scum reading Tex - it feels like a policy vote on a semi-active lurker which is pretty terrible reasoning at that point of the game.

785 is Lucky's jump onto the wagon and his jump is equally as bad. He basically jumps on over one comment from Tex, the now infamous 'low, hanging fruit'. There is nothing else behind this vote. Lucky/Acryon again seems implausible as I can't see them hopping onto the same wagon one after the other, there is almost certainly exactly one scum in Kmd/Lucky/Acryon. For me, it's Lucky > Kmd > Acryon. I really liked Acryon's early game because he was beating me to every question that I wanted to ask and that likely means he is approaching the game from the same standpoint as me. It's close between Kmd/Acryon for me but Lucky is by far and away the most likely to be scum.

Shadow and Lowell both now join the Tex wagon. Shadow's and Lowell's votes (935 and 936) are equally as bad as each other (why the fuck is everyone making scummy votes?) Shadow has made barely a mention of Tex the entire game and then BAM, there he is joining a wagon that's very clearly in the ascendancy, that's a pretty scummy vote right there.

Lowell joins the Tex wagon after Shadow joins - the person who has been pushing him all game. I ISO'd Lowell to get his opinion on Shadow and there was nothing, I find this super strange. Why has Lowell not engaged someone who has been pushing his wagon for quite some time? Lowell also makes it sound like he is being forced off my wagon when he is voting for Tex and that is absolutely not the case, this is an attempt to disguise his jump over to the Tex wagon.

Acryon flip-flopping on the two major wagons is absolutely horrible (946 and 962). Like, he doesn't care which one he is on, he just wants a lynch. Although, at this point we're getting pretty close to deadline so it's becoming difficult to discern the motivation behind the votes at this time. However, Acryon clearly thought there was enough time to turn the lynch onto me so him 'consolidating' on Tex just prior to this doesn't quite make sense.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is this actually suggesting that I'm on the mafia team? If I'm scum from anyone's pov, I'm the SK. My claim is ridiculous if I'm on mafia. It would mean that ABR shot my team mate, I claimed to be a vig for AlwaysInnocent, and at the same time have now covered/hidden the fact that there is a serial killer. Why would I risk my own life to hide the serial killer?

Ugh, I keep forgetting there is a SK to deal with as well.

OK, you and Kmd can both be scum after all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I'm not interested in lynching rofl, Kmd, Anen or Yos (I know, right?)

Both scum (& SK) are likely in Lucky, Shadow, Lowell, Acryon. I really felt Acryon was town early game and I want to trust this read a little longer at least but I just don't know, maybe not Acryon?

VOTE: Shadow Doing exactly what scum do when I miss them. Sit on the sidelines, popping in here and there. His vote on Tex was pretty awful as well. I'm less confident on Lowell because of Kop sitting on him and I want to trust my early read on Acryon. Lucky is likely SK and he can wait.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, yeah I can because the only conclusion I came to would be that it's highly unlikely you're scum with Kmd. But now you could be.

Literally, nothing else changes. Everything I said about your posting/voting still holds true.

I find it strange that you think the best way for me to get an unvote is to go out all guns blazing and attack pretty much everybody in the game. That's pretty funny. Tell me, how does 'spreading doubt' lead to an unvote?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh, I see. Yeah, I guess that's a thing. I could be doing that.

Or I could be trying to figure the game out.

Decisions. Decisions.

I would like to think that, as scum, I would be a little smarter than to attack, and vote, two people who are NOT already on my fast growing wagon though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because the odds of us having a SK are

significantly

higher than us having 2 vig's. So now you've drawn suspicion as our vig, which will get you killed by scum or lynched by town.

This is bad. I'm pretty sure that the last time I played this set-up scum owned us with set-up spec. They were laughing because there was no way we was in this set-up that had a 5% chance of happening or some shit. But we were. And scum won.

Set-up spec is scummy. Don't do it.

PEdit - VT. Go for it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, good game guys.

Pay attention to what I said tomorrow.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Immense letdown. Roflcopter replacing out was really bad. The last day was awful. I caught Anenein Day 1. You guys need to step up.

ABR, you're the best.

I'm good with PT being released.