Mini 1755: Game Over

[AxleGreaser]

EBWOP

clarity

LWT

Spoiler: Heats reasons (read >>>>if<<<< I have flipped) not relevant today

Heat has actually posted again the reasons in the thread 2202 that he would be prepared to lynch me.
A minor feel reads is that scum!heat would have been tempted to sheep PKs approach of just scum reading with basically no actual reasons at all. OR would in making the read make other mistakes, he didn't do those.
Why am i adding minor

point that

town leans for Heat?
because apart from the belief that scum

Rask

bad enough to flip off PK as they did (and if heat is scum it was off PK onto ALSO low hanging fruit (playing scummily) Ircher, is good

scumRask

enough that they wont have also fsked up and listed both buddies as bare town reads. And yeah its convincing

that they would not

but as stated, I believe its bad idea too put to much stock in any one piece of evidence, as players do fsck up as all alignments.
(So no I disagree with what I understand Pk position to be, that heat is now *certainly* town, and certainly not on the basis of one fact.
Anyway, Heats reasons for being on my wagon still dont feel like scum ones.

AKA it is an observation that town leans not the whole read that does, but yeah I am pretty sure at the end of my posting the conclusion would by that as choice just between heat and PK its Pk as the more plausible scum. His push on Massive and Myself would then give him enough mislynches to win as scum. They don't read as genuine reads of likely to flip scum as they lack reasons. There is also the problem of his unwillingness to answer several highly relevant questions if these are indeed his scum reads.

[AxleGreaser]

Axles:

LWT

Spoiler: truth

This post intent is not about alignment just truth. I expect that truth may well help determine alignment more accurately. But i am not sure how this bit will if it does participate in that.
Massive said this:

Boon was already practically conftown for hammering UTL in the way he did (since he knew not only that RC was lying about his result, but also lying about being the Friendly Neighbor).

Boon did look quite towny in the related sense to Pk flipping into UTL. In the case of PK there exist the arguement he knew with how he did it he would not be sheeped onto UTL.
>>>> THERE exist <<<<< in my head town reason a hypothetical PK who was town could do that. If I am alive tomorrow you can ask. Today it is my best judgment stating those is against my town wincon.
I think I am going to for today include also "why I think that" in being against town win con. It is however consistent with *quite a few* other things I said today. So like duh.
Boon hammer looked townier than PK's flip onto UTL because it went to an actual hammer and flipped scum. It was in no sense certain the lynch on UTL was going through as i was hammering on RC pretty hard. So given the flip, Boon hammering then as scum seems exceedingly sketchy. So yeah maybe "practically conftown".

However describing that RC was lying about the friendly neighbor is straight up wrong.

History of Boons FN claim. (which becomes clear in hindsight.)

Boon:
hard top town read PK d1, friended him N1.
then top town read Droog, friended him N2.
RC replaced in. 1344 happened
1347 and while the friendly neighbor could say that to the person they friended, it make so much more sense the other way around. Espceially when you include 1364
During the day Boon basically breadcrumbed his actions in plain sight... AKA: Discussed them. 1409 and more.

In 1732 Boon sets up for the lie he is going to tell.
In 1741 Boon tells the lie
This is RC agreeing with confirmed town boons 1760 lie. (not RC lying for themselves)

BTW IMO RC's Town RB is the more useful role than FN, if UTL is scum as RC and boon thinks likely will flip scum. As with 1 scum left RB is reasonably quite investigative.
But yeah RC went along with it, thus painting an nk target on their own back. Not sure there was an other way out that wasn't worse at that point.

So yeah id reallllllly prefer less/fewer huge look at MEEEEEEE! flash in pan go big or go home plays, and more ones that milked the power of FN and RB for all they can be, by living longer.
But nope... Red check!!!!, L-1 hammer, oops I'd better claim plays are seemingly the order of the day.

@Boon

. yeah I know what you did.

[AxleGreaser]

Axles:

LWT

Spoiler: Pisskop

Rask, Pisskop and Ircher

This post 395 nails the problem with the post where Rask flips off PK 131, to a tree.
If you then peer closely at it.

#1

It would feel a bit funny (wrong) if Rask flipped off Town PK onto town Ircher (who is low hanging fruit town) whereas Pisskop was at the time playing obviously scummily town. (self voting is a bad look)
(as is 100 112(self aware) 127(And the point in letting your supposed team mates tie themselves in knots is?) 128 (ah that would be it just for the FU value)
129 Ewww.
So yeah not that(on PK) is not that bad a place to have a vote if PK is town and so is Ircher.

#2

It is parsimonious for scum Rask to be flipping off Town PK(a mislynch) onto bussing scumbuddy(Ircher) an alarm bell ringing partner. As it would then go partway to also explaining error of having too much conviction, as he knew the move would flip scum.

#3

It is also possible, for scum Rask to be flipping off scum Buddy PK, who Rask had been believing was the more experienced partner and would lead them to victory, but finding them in apparent trouble could perhaps be alarming. Rask doesn't mind being flashy 189 so while worse than #2 it does partly explain the excess conviction of 131.

#2

I consider most likely then

#3

then

#1

.

Err this next bits just a LOL, <<< for the humor impared

LOL. I shoulda picked up on it earlier
<Rasks Avatar at the writing of this post. (is of a vampire cat about to pounce)>
This cat is definitely evil, you can tell for this one as it is even evil shaped. Its eyes are too close together and its teeth are too far apart.

Anyways, PK and my town read of him.
288 Does exactly what it does. It itself is not a town read or really the basis of one,
it is an explanation of previous behaviors seen from town Pisskop that scum Pisskop will clearly be aware of. 127 Says as much. It does deflate the BS scum reads of him though.

Egads i am a verbose bugger. (thsi was hard to find)

The outsiders list does not quite show my personal views, I mollified the outsiders list towards thread sentiment.
I am pretty close to bet the farm on my pisskop and Massive town reads.<details not included here>

So what are the details.
Well at least a sgnificant part of My Pisskop read, was there did not appear to be sufficient space for him to get enough mislynches and win.

At post 630 i was a little tilted.
653 mainly does nothing (as 656 concludes) but as part of a body of work, page 26 and 27 seems to me like a bad idea as scum PK.
The thread could have become a pile of crap and now it didn't. Id comment on Pk natural habitat.. but that would be rude so I will quote it instead

youre not goign to be able to out shitpost a shitposter

However saving your powder until endgame when with TMI you can look like legend.

Fucking retards. Like you guiz cant recognize town from scum

This certainty has never ever been explained.

If you find yourself at LYLO with him id make sure he explains. As then his choice will be if town explain or lose.

There is lot more stuff he can explain while he is at it. What his actual read on me or Massive is. How he refutes what i said about what he said so far being bogus. Why he did not engage and discuss the read or its reasoning with me. If he had convinced me of his read i could be voting massive with him. Why he wants it to be about dick waving 2090.

You cant outshit a shitposter, axle. When I let out bait, you walked right into it.

What this is and why it smells like scum who baited a trap for a townie. He scum reads me because I town read massive and wont lynch him. I have reasons for my read, because i am town and had to figure it out. PKs unexplained sudden and very strong town read on Performer and scum read on UTL is by comparison scuzzy as fuck.


Which is where my town read came unstuck.

When did pisskops lates flurry of activity begin?
Well if you are reading this I am both dead and flipped town so you know the suggestion here 2053 is BS.
and 2061 is to this dead flipped towny a serious contender for why a scum PK, would want to lynch one of us and shoot the other.

NOTE

There exist town explanations that might or might not be good actual play that explain what has happened.
He however has provided no strong reason for me to believe those are true.

There are things i can go through PKs filter and say that looks towny, I am pretty sure that is often the case in his scum games too.
The above is the stuff i don't want not said if I happen to be dead at the time.

It strikes the right balance, and then if there is tomorrow with Pk alive and me dead, we will see how it plays out with this as a dead flipped townies LWT.
Enjoy.
Cold dead hand.

[AxleGreaser]

I think that is the end of the LWT. Ive had the time i asked for in 2049

Earlier heat asked Pk this

Pisskop. Ircher is too scummy to be scum. what are your thoughts on that concept.

apparently he wont be answering.

Spoiler: earlier post of mine

and I note you have stated intent before getting a vote or commitment from Massive, which is incompatible with this intent

Let's make this clear:

WE ARE USING ALL OUR TIME TODAY

which was something you seemed fairly adamant about earlier.

DISCLAIMER: Means up to 36 hrs before deadline.

Yep so if the game was about following recipes (playing scum would be easy) that would make sense you have not done anything quite outside that simplistic rule.

However as pointed out above although you fall within the literal meaning of your clarified 36 HR rule.

It is seemingly incompatible with its town aligned intent. As was explained here.

and I note you have stated intent before getting a vote or commitment from Massive, which is incompatible with this intent

As town curious about both my and Massives alignment you would/should have wanted to waited for his input.

You have not addressed or explained why you were not interested in waiting for Massives input at all.
Please do so?

Neither will Ircher.

Earlier I made this post, seeking more information there was reason.

@Thread
yeah... if you want to talk to me about these and related statements by Ircher... then after i have talked to him... k
Lets just say my wife looked very pretty covered in wheaties.

Whic, nking any of the rest of us 4 not only gives town info, but scum really wouldn't want to nk anyone EXCEPT Axle right now assuming Axle town.

I am intrigued by your thought process. (I have some other feelings but they don't seem very relevant)
I know you have moved on to suggesting no lynch and then your even more recent posts.
But I want to know what you were thinking when you wrote this post.

Questions.

Why do you think this. "scum really wouldn't want to nk anyone EXCEPT Axle right now assuming Axle town."

What info will the other nk you would, according to your post above, force scum to make give.

I know that as heat points out Irchers posts are scummy, and could be described as too scummy to be scum.

Spoiler: math

Monty hall is a well known problem that gives many people trouble with probabilities.

To scummy to be scum can also be due to misunderstanding of probabilities.
(this story i set on disc world, int he book small gods by terry Pratchet. It has no relation to any gods real or imaginary in other plane of existence.)
3 Atheist meteorologists are on tour of the disc world. The are walking across a field on clear sunny day, all have high degree of confidence god does not exist.
One stubs his toe and says "Goddam it". A bolt of lighting from the sky reduces him to dust.
Another says "Holy crap that was a really unlucky thing to happen". Another bolt of lighting from the sky reduces him to dust.
The last one suddenly becomes a believer.

While it was true he believed it very unlikely he lived in world where god struck people with bolts of lighting.
he also believed it was highly unlikely that two people in row get struck like that on clear sunny day.
he was no longer evaluating the probability that God did or did not exist, he was evaluating the conditional probability that having just seen two people struck by lighting what was the probability of god existing, and being a bit touchy about blasphemers.

It is indeed unlikely that scum would make posts such as Ircher has made, it is also unlikely town would.
We are trying to evaluate the conditional probability that scum or town made those posts.
I have never ever seen anyone anywhere propose lynching a towny because you think scum will kill them. My brain freezes (locks up) when i try understand it.
So in assessing the relative observed probabilities of them i get a division by zero error.

It is two player(team) zero sum game ... and you wat? Want make move lynch some guy, because having that guy dead is what the other team wants too?


HOWEVER

My problem is kinda unrelated to that.
My problem is with the mindset, and what i can infer Ircher has been thinking about lately.

Ircher has high degree of confidence who scum will want to kill.
has low degree of confidence in who he thinks is scum.

It is possible to get there by analysing the problem and working out that every possible scum player would want X dead.
I didn't see evidence of that happening when i asked.

[AxleGreaser]

Id be happy to lynch massive.

Already said so.

Don't remember you explaining why and refuting what I said about the poor excuse for reasoning that you did provide. 2121 for instance
and only said stuff like 2142 devoid of actual reasons.

It is wayyyyyy past time for faux pushes. What you have done, and especially what you have not done, is scummy as fuck. Pushing for lynches, with cult of personality, while trying to keep your own hands clean.

---

We have to convince Heat though, as Massive/Axle are content on an Ircher lynch. Aka, Heat has the deciding vote.

You could always you try and explain why you think one particular lynch is best and most likely to flip scum
that would be good way to

Let's make this clear: WE ARE USING ALL OUR TIME TODAY

use all of today.

[AxleGreaser]

@Heat - Explaining the latter portion of today
This is not scum who are sitting on the fence waiting for the opportunistic vote. This is town who isn't very confident in his reads anymore

but is certain who would get killed tonight

EBWOP

Additional clarity

Spoiler: @Thread

yeah... if you want to talk to me about these and related statements by Ircher... then after i have talked to him... k
Lets just say my wife looked very pretty covered in wheaties.

<I thought that was a trope. The image i meant to conjure was me {

eating breakfast, reading something, and involuntarily spraying my mouthful of wheaties across the table

}.>

---

@Ircher

Whic, nking any of the rest of us 4 not only gives town info, but scum really wouldn't want to nk anyone EXCEPT Axle right now assuming Axle town.

I am intrigued by your thought process. (I have some other feelings but they don't seem very relevant)
I know you have moved on to suggesting no lynch and then your even more recent posts.
But I want to know what you were thinking when you wrote this post.

Questions.

Why do you think this? "scum really wouldn't want to nk anyone EXCEPT Axle right now assuming Axle town."

What info will the other nk (according to your post above,) you would force scum to make,
give.

Well, my gist as far as the Axle nk is that Axle is prob. the best player still alive right now. While he isn't always right, he does good job of looking town and always makes supported reads. In other words, it would be very difficult, though not impossible, for scum to frame and have Axle lynched in LyLo.

[AxleGreaser]

Then lynh me.

Oh. you dont have the powah to.

So, you can either let people who

do

have the power to make the choice, or you can help us.

Who are you talking to?

So far... you dont have the powah to lynch me either.
but you have indeed got closer.

As before ircher is my one bigegst scum read at this time still.

You cant actually be serious.....

So, you can either let people who

do

have the power to make the choice, or you can help us.

It is not me that has consistently refused to explain reasons for things and play with the other townies who are alive, by letting know what you are thinking and why.
If you had, i might even have town read you more than Massive
if you had explained your reads, I might even have agreed.

but nope its dick waving or the highway according to you.

Good. So now instead of pandering for support, how about you vote like a man?

[AxleGreaser]

K. Its one today and probs the other tomorrow. Illpromise to reassess tho

Oh goody your a quadrupal voter and you make up your mind tomorrow
how very beneficent of you.

do please let us know whatever you deign at your earliest convenience.

[AxleGreaser]

but nope its dick waving or the highway according to you.

K. Its one today and probs the other tomorrow. Illpromise to reassess tho

and it still is

[AxleGreaser]

Looks like scumflail to me.

and there you go again.

[AxleGreaser]

So Heat I guess it is very much up to you.

Ircher will i expect pretty much lynch anything that is not him.
PK will lynch either of the people that are a real threat to him personally. (me and Massive) (I don't remember any real reasons for either)

I and Massive town read one another.

So you could plausibly lynch any of Ircher, Massive, or me.

[AxleGreaser]

Thank you for reiterating the options available to heat again. Keep up the high intensive posting :cool story:

well you can keep up not actually posting reasoning for anything.

I am going to tell you now as i have realsied I dont care whethr this is your actual town meta or your best understanding of that as scum

I hate hat youre doing this. I feel like youre doing it for meta reasons.

PKB.

I see no towny merit in your approach to the game, except it would be nice to have as a meta when you roll scum.

Lynch anyone but me, scott no reasons

, does work well for all alignments, its just rather less than good as town.

The closets you got for reasons on me, is I opposed your lynch on massive.

or Looks like <insert adjective here>

[AxleGreaser]

Im not saying not to lynch me tho.

PK will lynch either of the people that are a real threat to him personally. (me and Massive) (I don't remember any real reasons for either)

still

scott no reasons

[AxleGreaser]

There was never any danger of me hammering Axle, so I can't imagine why Ircher even brought it up.

As noted, leaving this here.

VOTE: Ircher

Will check back in the morning on my way out.

You know what, that is a horrible vote.

@PK, @Heat -->

Massive's the last scum

, Axle is just over analyzing stuff.

Why SHOULDN'T I consider the possibility that you COULD hammer. You guys do idiotic stuff if I don't spell some stuff like this out to you, so I don't get why that's a scumread.

What is horrible about the vote.
Who should he have voted and why would he do that?
What about him not doing that (but making a horrible vote) makes you

suddenly surer

for massive to be scum?

[AxleGreaser]

Todays Mechanics:
I will be VLA, the next two weekends

Spoiler:

In my TZ, I will be leaving in about 72hrs Fri morningish.
And then again on the day of the deadline, but only just.
So I dont see an actual problem

[AxleGreaser]

*CLAPCLAPCLAP*

thanks for that heat

So Pisskop if by some chance you happen to be town and have acquired this magical certainty who the scum is by error on your part,
then you need to pull your head out of your ass and try communicating.

You could start by communicating:

How you went from (performer to UTL)

Spoiler:

vote: performer

Can we get some progression here?

Id lynch utl too

No. You get back on this wagon.

To UTL

vote: utl

and while that might be plausible as there are intervening posts

Why,

Spoiler: decision to 1v1 massive

pisskop you got 20 minutes to make me believe UTL or I'm hammering Performer.

Thats shit stop being a bad player.

If you hammer Ill come after your head tomorrow

Good. 1v1.

How did this suddenly supersede your UTL read?
What about what happened is scummy?
Why have you refused to explain why you have your reads?

In the earlier parts of the game that can at times have utility, but lately persuading town to vote how you want, is what its about.
True by playing the
Ive got secret I know why X or Y is scum and you don't because you are dumb.... lets you crow louder later if you happen to be right and your ego is fragile enough to need that sort of thing

But in order to win, you do need to persuade people.

Of course if you are scum, you can try to emotively persuade people by calling them dumb for voting people who are town, and then hope that in order to avoid you calling them dumb again they will just sheep you.

[AxleGreaser]

@massive

yeah there will be some

So yeah, N cornered shootouts are fun The good the bad and the weird (I give it at least 9 of 10 on the two headed rubber chicken(weirdness) scale)

oops wrong link

Stand off

and I claim weird and or ugly. <

and no I dont have the map. Scum have that

>

[AxleGreaser]

@massive yeah I dunno what the eyeballing will be yet, I will need to find something.

[AxleGreaser]

Another procedural post.

@Massive

Spoiler: theory

As was mentioned recently the prisoners dilemma is a thing. A naive first order analysis of the pure mathematical problem as posed it has no good solution for the participants
A similar but different version of the game has options.. and strategies. The iterated prisoners dilemma

(barring bad blood and pregame grudges, which i am unaware of and saw no signs of.) In terms of voting we are stuck in non iterated prisoners dilemma.

However our play during the day can have iterations if that is useful, and i think it is.

Application to the current situation.

As previously stated Massives town read on me is based on thinking similar things as is mine on him. This si especially true when they think things I didn't say yet.

Me finding more of those would strengthen my town read on Massive further. But those self same ideas are ones Massive wants to keep hidden to see if I think them and he can check i am thinking what he is but has not said yet.

hence the dilemma, who discloses what first?
The solution is to base play on the iterated prisoners dilemma and the Tit for Tat solution/strategy.

@Pisskop

You are umpteen turns behind in disclosure... and transparency.
If you wanna be even in the game.... play the game.

[AxleGreaser]

@Massive

At some point, we ought/could arrange our time schedules to play some iterated prisoners dilemma in real time at blitz game speeds.

[AxleGreaser]

wrong answer. as the final townie Im the one whos deciding the game

Wat (for a start I didnt answer anything. So far today I am the only one who has really said anything)
pfft.

There are two townies left, and i am one of them.
and rather obviously you claim to be one them as will massive.
All thats both boring and IIOA.

Your post is bravado instead of Analysis.

This is still true.

@Pisskop
You are umpteen turns behind in disclosure... and transparency.
If you wanna be even in the game.... play the game.

[AxleGreaser]

youre right, its not everyone :d

Im gonna take a breather. I hope we all learned from this experience.


mod was a good mod too

what that you ought play the damn game?
and post reasons and shit?
and make some effort to be readable?

[AxleGreaser]

wtf is wrong with you idiots??

how hard is it to play lije you want to fucking win

dunno how hard was it?

[AxleGreaser]

Man, Performer, your hammer was the most nerve-wracking thing I have ever done as scum. I knew I couldn't let UTL's wagon gather any kind of momentum but I knew I needed to do it in a way that wouldn't bring a huge amount of fire my way the next day. Luckily pisskop finally decided he'd rather I choke on a pretzel than get lynched

Congrats I dont know if Id have worked you out if you had been forced to play out the day or not.
but as far as you got, up to there, you had beaten me.

[AxleGreaser]

What YOU interpret as 'effort to be readable' and 'playing the damn game' is people's conformity to YOUR measure of playing the game,

posting why your read people as scum is not the game?

Pk would mot explain his reads.

but yeah you are from the welp I am cow bells appeal to emotion school of playing mafia.
I got over crying and other such methods of appealing to emotion until I got what i wanted long time ago.

YMMV and apparently does.

[AxleGreaser]

and yeah ta for the modding.

[AxleGreaser]

Scumhunting is reconstructing play in thread into a larger framework of understanding what their thought process.

Yup and Pisskop refused to provide the bricks for the reconstruction.

[AxleGreaser]

For example, if Massive was legitimately pissed off at PK for not giving reasons he would have just hammered.

No that is what a childish Massive would do.

I was legitimately pissed of at many things, I didn't vote anyone because of it.
You appear to be projecting how you play mafia onto other people.

[AxleGreaser]

people who overly justify their reads are usually scum.

I flipped town.

but yeah i use the over justifcation of reads as scum indicative thing but it is ridiculously context dependent.

[AxleGreaser]

Massive clearly indicated that he was pissed off and/or childish in thread.

Yeah he was pissed off, but as town would he act on it?

[AxleGreaser]

God no

I think I am going to honor this request, and stop talking theory.

it was fun playing with you Droog (I hope all is well)
and would enjoy doing so again

Whenever i get around to playing mafia again. It may be a while before I have a large enough slab of time and desire.

[AxleGreaser]

He DID act on it though.

He did what he originally said he was going to, when he said he would.
he did not act on being pissed off.


Pedit: good news Glad to hear it.


/out

[AxleGreaser]

Like I agree that I didn't react well to it.
But I was put on the spot in a pretty fucking horrible way by a selfish player who only cared about his own reads even after I got scum lynched.
That same player who claimed that they trusted my reads and lynched my biggest townread.

It was not AFTER it was before the scum flipped.
You claimed you were not even trying to get UTL lynched with the fake claim. 1723
The fake claim was not actually required in anyway at all to get UTL lynched.
You voted, and fake claimed, and claimed that everybody except Ircher would know it was a fake claim. 1739

You didnt even know what the vote count was... as in you were not even paying that much attention to how many votes were on the person you now say you had to fake claimt to get lynched? You didnt even actually know how close or far you were from getting the lynch you wanted. 1740

Yeah, I fake guiltied. Desperation play

because you had not even counted how many votes UTL had and realised that with just the act of you voting hed be at L-1.

Like the tl;dr is that even minutely skilled scum can give reasons for any of their votes.

You appear to be failing at giving reasons, right here right now? and you dont even have scum PM.

there's gambiting and being a fucking moron.

Indeed there is.

[AxleGreaser]

this game killed my mafia thing that I had.

I haven't been able to properly invest myself in a mafia game to the same extent since this one I'm so mad about what happened.

*shrug*

Really, turn about would be fair play then?

[AxleGreaser]

take the reads of the dead more seriously.

If they explain them so I can understand them then I can add them to what i know.
That I already do.

Your plan where other people sheep you regardless of your alignment... is not on my to do list.

[AxleGreaser]

this game killed my mafia thing that I had.

I haven't been able to properly invest myself in a mafia game to the same extent since this one I'm so mad about what happened.

*shrug*

Really, turn about would be fair play then?

meaning link added.

Not sure what you mean.

Whenever i get around to playing mafia again. It may be a while before I have a large enough slab of time and

desire

.

The problem with lack of

desire

is part caused by the thought of playing game where people play game a based around....
"nyah, everybody do what I say or I wont play any more, I will sit with my vote locked here till doomsday, because i want a pony"
"nyah every body do(vote) what i say because i say."
"Youre a dumbass" << posts about the person not the play.
"Not tellin" , "just Not tellin", and yeah there is time and pace and and sometimes you make space and keep stuff to yourself
...

The list gets longer, but the tldr, would be things I would have expected if Played this game when i was in primary school.
And yes emotional blackmail and social engineering is a thing. And i am pretty sure there could be some found in how I play.
Either that or
Tldr: just people that dont get this

Speaking about heroes in Mafia. There are no heroes in Mafia. There is only good and poor teamplay. And fakeclaiming as town is more often poor teamplay than not (so exceptions do not break this general rule).

A few of my favorite things.

Spoiler: mafia related ones

so there have been a bunch of threads about fakeclaiming, and i've mostly been in the "moderate" camp that said town should usually tell the truth except a few circumstances.

i'm not anymore. now i think town should just always tell the truth. period.

the idea behind this is simple. when it comes to roleclaiming, scum HAVE to lie. even if they end up claiming vt. they don't actually have a town role pm so they have to make one up. town don't have the same problem. they actually HAVE a town role pm so they don't need to make one up. does that sound overly simplistic? i don't think it is. i think people underestimate the utility of being able to remove yourself from the lynchpool with a good claim OR the power to ferret out fakeclaiming scum. when you lie as town, you nullify those. you add to the confusion that's ALREADY inherent in an UNINFORMED situation. you keep yourself firmly in the lynch pool because you look really sketchy and the rest of the town isn't going to be able to parse your exact motivation. but most destructively, you contribute to creating a site meta where it's OK for town to fakeclaim. and that's just... awful.

now, i thought of a few counterarguments that people will undoubtedly pull out:

"i fakeclaim all the time. then whoever calls me on fakeclaiming must be scum so i vote them."

yeah, that's wonderful.

please stay away from me.

"but this one time i fakeclaimed as town on this super dooper cool awesome gambit. i totally rocked the game and won after i got finished wrestling a bear and sticking a sparkler up my ass at the same time."

ok... first off, i really don't believe you OR i don't care enough to actually read the troll game you're going to link me to and tell you why you either lucked out or didn't really help town win.

second, i don't give two shits about whatever isolated incident you want to brag about. i've been here a while and here's how i've seen fakeclaiming go: crap, stinky crap stew, cauldron full of boiling feces

you know what the common thread of all those are? they're well intentioned gambits trying to do something heroic and they did a LOT of damage. to town.

"but i have to claim X role in order to draw the nightkill or avoid the nightkill..."

let me stop you right there.

your second guessing who scum are going to nk is no way to do things, because ultimately it's impossible to reliably "draw" or "avoid" the nightkill. that's because the scum kill is based on a confluence of SO many factors... pr's, reads, leadership, hell sometimes i see scum kill people they just flat out don't like.

just do your best while you're still alive and afterwards you can hold your head up high knowing you did your best.

"but...but...but i HAVE to fakeclaim because otherwise those other idiots are going to lose the game..."

...and we arrive at what i think is the true center of why town fakeclaim. there's always at least a little bit of an component of narcissism in fakeclaiming town. the underlying philosophy is: you can't tell the rest of the town the truth because those other morons who are beneath you can't be trusted with the truth and you're their only true savior.

and my answer is: get over yourself.

mafia is a team game. as either alignment, you HAVE to rely on your teammates. this is true ESPECIALLY as town. you're not the lone badass that's going to singlehandedly win the game. that doesn't even exist. 99.999% of town wins are through TEAM effort and there's nothing that disrupts that more than misinformation. scum already supply enough of that, you don't need to help them.

tl:dr
don't fakeclaiming as town.

for realz.

What I like about this one was it was written before this game but was prophetic. The fake claim is not what got UTL lynched, it did not have to be done get the lynch, that is just an adhoc post facto rationalization, that massages reality to fit the radiant cowbell image....

Best way to draw a nightkill is to drop a subtle "PR slip," or simple being vocal and right. I prefer the latter.

The only time that fakeclaiming as town is acceptable is a very specific situation with the 'gambit' being "gain or null" with no risk to follow. Even then, there are usually an alternative solution that is easier to pull.

One shouldn't fakeclaim as town for survival. One shouldn't fakeclaim as town for persuasion advantage. One shouldn't fakeclaim to keep up with one's meta. (Forcing a negative action upon self just to keep up with one's meta is stupid from the beginning and is a very good indication that one should change his playstyle.) The only time when fakeclaiming as town is even acceptable is (1) You know damn well about what you're doing. (2) There is absolutely no way that lying will backfire in any way. (3) It gains a high advantage if succeeds. Most people fails at (1). (2) is an extremely rare situation. (3) is also an extremely rare situation and there are usually better and more simple alternatives.

fakeclaiming as town is about the equivalent of pulling down your pants and taking a dump on the board while playing a board game.

it might not be the worst thing anyone can do but it's still inconsiderate and annoying.

I love you.

What about underclaiming your results?
Like saying youre a weaker version of your role to try and get maximal value out of it?

i.e., claiming "2-shot Informed Tracker" as a full gunsmith and mindfucking me cos I didn't stop to realize you had a role that would have allowed you to get another inno? yes

claiming a tracker guilty when you have a cop guilty is one I also used to hear about a lot but I hardly ever see it done now

I am against taking dump on the board while playing board game with people. You should just piss in their pocket instead. /s

So far I am happy with the company I am keeping.

Rarely, RARELY is it a good idea to straight out claim a false role when you are pro-town. Not fully claiming your role can be different The problem is that if you claim something broken, you'll get lynched and might draw fire...

In a totally made up scenario, imagaine this:
4 left alive, probably 1 townie. Player A and B are both restricted docs. If A claims to be a full doc and B realizes that it would be BROKEN to have one full doc, he might reveal.. get A lynched and then clearly B would be the last lynch. Mafia wins a nearly lost game.

*shrug* easy to make up scenarios though. But it's so rarely in the towns favor to lie that I say- Lynch all liars.

-JEEP

and this is gift that just keeps on giving

Like, I cannot stress how bad that logic is. "If I make an impossible claim, only scum will vote me."

No. If you make an impossible claim, you should be burned at the stake by all righteous townies and if anything, scum won't even have to push your wagon

I find fake claims to be funny, i have seemingly reached a point where people disregard my claims altogether cus i have been known to soft fakes as a VT with the intent to die

This is probably a very bad thing and should hurt your chance to win as both alignments as town should never listen to you. As a town PR, it gets yourself lynched and significantly hurts town win chances. As scum it makes it impossible to get out of a lynch with a claim. Any plan that's results discredit you in your meta to the extent where the game should ignore you is essentially playing against your win condition.

In all town should exceedingly rarely (rarely is not every other game) fakeclaim, even if you are forced to claim VT as VT early, you can at times get out of it. Scum should have a few fakeclaims they have laid out throughout the game, then just pick the best one to suit your situation and what the setup is trending towards (if even using it).

Lying means adding more confusion to the game and therefore harming the investigation / analysis. Unless you have a

really good

reason to lie, then generally the costs outweigh the benefits.

the guy who just joined today has more sense than the op...

and the reason for that is he started here.

Speaking about heroes in Mafia. There are no heroes in Mafia. There is only good and poor teamplay. And fakeclaiming as town is more often poor teamplay than not (so exceptions do not break this general rule).

And if that is the only thing you do, start there, quite lot of the rest just follows as direct application.
As town you dont known who your team mates really are....
But with skill and application you can work with them, by helping with what they need to play the game....

or you can drop your pants and take dump on the board.

Spoiler: This not too bad either

I'd like to discuss self-voting. I've been having this thought brewing in me for a while now, and a while back I even put it up on my wiki, and now I really think I'd like to try to sell it to the community at large. My thesis is as follows;

Barring *very specific setup or role interactions* there is literally NEVER a time when a town player should self vote.

A self vote as a joke is a dumb joke.
A self vote as a rage quit shows poor play and whiny inability to deal with the situation you're in or to simply request replacement.
A self vote as a strategy...well, that requires very specific role/setup interactions, but doing it as a "test" of how people react to it is only likely to "test" who finds it a dumb move. Whoop-dee-doo.

As scum there are plenty of reasons to self vote.
Denies town planning time in a self hammer situation.
Hurts VCA.
Induces wifom due to AtE gak. (how many times have you seen someone town read someone else for a self vote? I know I see it a fair shake)

Oh, wow, look at that, it's almost like self-voting aids scum and hurts town. Shock.
So why the hell do any town players EVER allow themselves to self-vote? You're voting a confirmed town at that stage - that is playing against your wincon, quite frankly. Honestly, if I think i could get away with it I'd petition the board to make that a universally accepted rule that, as town, a self vote is playing against wincon and is thus bannable. That's about how much I'm offended by it when any town player does it.

And the benefits for scum? Literally half of them are only there because derp town chooses to self vote as a rage quit type option or as their only answer to a wagon/case.

I used self-voting as scum early in my career to get town read or to dismantle wagons on me. Recently, as an alt account, I used it again, and it worked beautifully. Everyone was all like 'oh dear, look at that poor frustrated town, unvote!' and I skunked a win for my scum team. Why should I be allowed to get away with that? Why should town need to try to sort out whether someone is a derp town or a vile scum just due to a single vote?

I am really making this as a rallying cry.
I want self-votes to become the purview of only scum - and thus crush them as a scum tool barring self-hammers.
All it takes is for people to stop self-voting and also to stop treating a self vote as anything but null, and eventually as a scum tell as we weed it out.
The only reason I can personally think of for people to keep self voting as town is to defend the tool for their scum game - and I don't need you bolstering your weak scum play by tanking your town games. Just leave the crutch behind, you'll become a stronger player as both alignments.

I'd love to hear praise for my brilliance
Or, reasoning for why a self-vote is a valid town tool *outside* of specific setup/role interactions.

Example posts of good/bad uses of self-voting might also be useful, to show how you have experienced/practiced them.
All of mine would be me as scum using them to avoid a lynch...which supports my thesis as far as I can tell.

I'm not saying you in particular have to get your reads from self-votes, but you are asking other people to stop townreading townish self-votes because of your principles, which is dumb

Honestly, I don't care if people want to get reads off it anyway - but I think we should be able to relegate it to a point where the only read is a scum one. As said, there is no town benefit for it. At that point, town should just not do it - and that should then clear the way to only see it as a scumtell (which means scum would stop doing it too). It should be able to be seen as only a scumtell, i understand that it's not, and I don't see it that way myself right now - but it boggles me that you need to bother 'reading' something that is blatantly a pro-scum move.

As a serious response to this, I consider self-voting a trait of bad players. They do a Smurfton of dumb stuff and stopping to self-vote wouldn't elevate their play to bearable levels.

I personally think there is a difference between a player who chooses to be bad, and a player who doesn't realize he is being bad.
I see a lot of Newbies bandying about the idea of self-voting to "help" the town. I always explain to them why it doesn't.
If players were at least aware that what they were doing was a bad play I do think it would clean up a substantial percentage of the self-votes. Also, i have had conversations with players who have multiple years of experience on site who argue that a self-vote has purpose. I do think a greater site awareness of how bad the move is might help them re-examine the stance. Or at least come up with a valid justification.

Vengeful self-hammering to take shot?

Kanye kind of stole my thunder on this - but, yes, if you're vengeful you should probably still allow your lynch to go through normally to allow better VCA. If you're going to be lynched you will be without a self-hammer, and will still get your shot.

I might buy it for a Supersaint who is convinced a town is about to hammer him - that might be a valid call as a time to self-hammer.
But, frankly, the best option at that point is to claim and try to convince town to at least force a scummy player to place the hammer. Or, to prevent your lynch altogether, since you're town.

Self hammer for town cred.

I've seen this often enough that the joke pains my soul

The problem with it is I think most townies self-voting are reacting emotionally to things that pissed them off/upset them and it's hard to eradicate that by telling them self-voting is bad or ignoring a meltdown when it's happening.

I can somewhat agree with this - my counter is this;

'Grow up and use replace out'

Because if you're emotional to the point you can't deal with the game anymore - you should probably stop playing the game.
And the only reason to choose a self-vote over a replace out is if;
1. You have ulterior motives (are scum).
2. You're intentionally trying to ruin other people's fun as 'punishment' for ruining yours (are a jerk)

I don't find either option too wonderful, but I have seen emotional replace outs, so I know people are capable of that. When they self vote they're basically trying to ruin other people's fun, and while, yeah, that might be a thing, I don't see it as a roadblock to be aware that it is still bad play and bad sportsmanship at that point - at least that's how I take it. I would like to think we can train people to have rage replace outs as opposed to rage self-votes. It should be healthier for people's sanity *and* for the quality of the game.

[AxleGreaser]

#Golden Lynch

Then work with me instead of being a stubborn ass and saying shit like 'UTL HAD HER WAGON!'

Then work with other people by explaining why you think what you do....

That was what I was asking pisskop to do, when he spat the dummy and hammered the day out.

I cant get my lynch so I will fake claim red check.... is not

Then work with me instead of being a stubborn ass ...

its the stubborn ass bit.

That you didnt even know you had got your lynch to L-1....

[AxleGreaser]

I was mostly sheeping Axle's

probably because they looked like they made sense because i explained them.

[AxleGreaser]

Spoiler: one more favorite thing that I forgot to include

[AxleGreaser]

Oh look more company I like to be keeping.

[AxleGreaser]

Why not just stick to the plan, guy? Haha....Ircher was confirmed town pretty much, too.

So please explain what the plan was when you did this...
be careful to only use what you knew at the time.

Not the plan when you later found out RC was the RB. What was the plan in bringing up the whole FN bit.

Do note that if scum tried, and worked at like i did overnight they could have become certain that you were in fact the FN.
When they shot RC, I kinda expected they had guessed RC was PR too due to having the gumption to fake claim, but I knew (or think I do) that RC will pull that as any alignment with or without a role.

However for RC to be so hard fishing for the PRs earlier meant he likely knew where all the PRs were.
So if you were the FN he was seemingly some other role, who went fishing for what he thought was scum feeling out for fake claim.
(ALLLL the PR stuff was bad from that respect, the best way not to leak PR tells is to play as if you are actually a VT.)

You had all sorts of crumbs and tells during the day for scum to sort it out once, you raised the idea.
It was a fake claim. It was not one of the specific exceptions, it was bad. It was relatively transparent.
I have seen the scum QT, and yes at some point in time they had indeed believed various claims and not seen through them.

Your damn lucky i wasnt scum or Id have shot you both... Oh wait scum did that anyways.

Regarding RC's RB. Please show me evidence that RC doesn't regularly flap read around like the wind and change their reads and night actions willy nilly.


So yours was a good fake claim gambit?
I am sure Mina will update her advice accordingly.

[AxleGreaser]

So yours was a good fake claim gambit?
I am sure Mina will update her advice accordingly.

Fakeclaiming is a desperation move and my situation was desperate there.

You were so desperate that while doing it you claimed you were not doing that but reaction testing Ircher. 1723
Claimed that in your opinion what you had done had no utility in getting UTL lynched as no one but Ircher would believe it. 1739
You were so desperate to get UTL lynched that you had not done the initial step of knowing how many people were actually currently voting UTL
So you had failed to notice you had put UTL at L-1? 1740

You do understand that the people who will read this play mafia, and can see through transparent made up stuff?

[AxleGreaser]

If you could understand what I was thinking when I was doing the things I did, you wouldn't have been wrong on every single one of your reads.

people might understand what you were thinking if you explained it.

It gets very hard to understand what you were thinking when it is so self contradictory even now that virtually some of it must be lies.

You were and were not trying to get UTL lynched, and have literally claimed both.
You were desperate to get someone lynched but didn't happen to for instance know what the actual vote count was.

I was indeed wrong on my reads after about that point.

I am not sure how understanding whatever it is that would mean you both did and did not fake red check to UTL lynched will help that.

[AxleGreaser]

*to get UTL Lynched

[AxleGreaser]

I think I am going to go on with trying learn how to play from the people i quoted above. (few posts back)

Thanks all the same for your concern.

[AxleGreaser]

claim

I gave a major explanation during the game about why Massive was scum.

facts (think I got eveything.)

That 'come after me tomorrow' was so calculated and flat.

Me no likey.

When Pk made his reasonless switch

I think that Massive's hammer was calculatedly abrasive to look like it came from town while it was concealing a scum drive to protect his partner from being wagoned.

[AxleGreaser]

I wasn't trying to get her lynched IMMEDIATELY.

I wanted to see how Ircher would react to the claim.

Yes I think that was pretty much covered in list of reasons explicitly not fake claim.

When should I REALLY not fake a guilty?
[..]
3 To "shake things up" because the town is playing terribly.

You had L-1 on your UTL scum read (but had not noticed)
You got your read hammered by someone who didn't according to you believe your fake claim (not sure boon has ever said)

but you are so desperate for a read on Ircher who is being an idiot, that you risk outing yourself (and it happens),
where if you stay hidden just bit longer you RB becomes fully investigative.

It is indeed all about what you want.

Fixed quote tag --Dier