Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[Keyser Söze]

Previously on The Walking Dead...

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

BlueBloodedToffee was bitten by a walker - although this is not necessarily fatal, he's too much of a liability around the ice cream now.

Save yourself.
Protect your family and friends.
Vote BlueBloodedToffee.

[Keyser Söze]

Golden Robster is mafia.

VOTE: mn
Why aren't you voting GR, then?

So as to vote for mafia and push for their lynch.

The first question that sprung to my mind was: 'Do you

really

believe mn scum-reads Golden Robster?' [i.e

Aquanim is overreacting

- why/how could mn already firmly conclude Golden Robster is scum during page one RVS?]

However

, mn's following two posts made me re-think my position on the tone of his intro (

sarcastic/RVS vs bad play

).

@mn

- please explain your following posts:

Why would I?

I do not play like that.

Is this in relation to Golden Robster or your general scum-hunting style (please share with us your mafia-experience - I noticed you had no newbie game under your belt). Are you saying you generally do not vote for your scum-reads and you DO think Golden Robster "is mafia"?

VOTE: GOLDEN ROBOSTER

YOU ARE JUST DOING THAT SO NOBODY DARES TO VOTE YOU!!! BUT I DARE!!!

ALL PLAYERS MUST VOTE GOLDEN ROBOSTER!!! HE IS TRYING TO AVOID A VOTE, BUT I AM SMARTER THAN THAT AND I AM VOTING HIM NOW!!!

TellTaleHeart will be replacing Southernoutlaw2199! Please welcome her.

Welcome TellTaleHeart!

[Keyser Söze]

There is no reason for me to reveal my past mafia experiences.

...but please can you tell me if you genuinely/generally do not vote for your scum-reads (this shouted 'newbie-playstyle' to me).
I did not think your opening post was serious -

am i correct?

[Keyser Söze]

My opening post was

serious

,

gr is mafia

.

[I.e please point out what you think is scum-indicative regarding Golden Robster's post(s).]


Oh,

just one more thing

... as per your role pm, do you win when all

threats

to town are eliminated... or do you win when all players

without

a Mafia wincon are eliminated?

[Keyser Söze]

his opening posts proved he is mafia.

Please explain why - I need to see how/why you got to: "he is mafia".
Morever, has anyone "proved" to be town so far?

I know you guys have

low Intelligence

, but please.

@SirCakez

- no more ice cream for mn.

He's a very naughty boy!

[Keyser Söze]

lol

You see, mn, when a player wants another player eliminated he does this>>>

VOTE: mn
Your posts tick me off

Do you want Golden Robster eliminated? Or are you going to stick around, call us idiots and eat our ice cream?

[i.e the line that divides anti-town and bad-scum play is very hazy, we wouldn't want you to be eliminated early from the game if you are town].

Please play the game.

[Keyser Söze]

Do you think that telling mn to "play the game" is actually going to have an effect, Keyser?

Certainly. Expecially when I have SirCakez in my corner.

Me>>><<<SirCakez

When a player signs up to a game I expect them to play and respect the site's/mod's rules.

I personally think it's a troll account.

[Keyser Söze]

ingratiating tinge

^
I've never seen/used this word before, but can you tell me why/if it's a negative/suspicious/alignment-indicative quality.
[

I like learning Mafia lexicon

].

[Keyser Söze]

Do you have a read on Aquanim?

At first I felt Aquanim was overreacting to mn RVS' post (scum indicative) - but my understanding of the tone of mn's first post changed after his subsequent remarks. Thus, I think Aquanim's reaction was null-indicative. Town/scum Aquanim had every right to shout about mn's serious post.

I have trust issues. :S

This is healthy. Nurture it. (I actually find paranoia usually town-indicative).

Why did you take his comment so seriously during the RVS stage?

Re-read the thread Golden Robster. I genuinely thought his opening post was sarcastic RVS (not serious) until his later posts confirmed he was being "serious".

So...

what did you think of mn's serious scum-read of you

? Why did YOU not engage with mn?

the length to which you went to

discredit him

seems forced.

Point out where I brought alignment (scum-indicative) into it. All I wanted was for mn to play the game.

GR seems a lot more level headed than I previously thought. I withdraw my statement.

Thanks, this is better (a read and an explanation). I'm glad you want to play now.

I'm hardly trying right now

All I wanted was for you to try. Posts like:

"Golden Robster is mafia."

<<unexplained scum-read

"Why would I?"

<<we usually vote for our scum-reads

"My opening post was serious, gr is mafia."

<<still, an unexplained scum-read

"There is nothing else to say, his opening posts proved he is mafia."

<<still, an unexplained scum-read

"I know you guys have low Intelligence, but please"

<<personal insult

[These weren't productive.]

[Keyser Söze]

The question about his wincon (on the phone, can't quote) and the general use of gifs to mirror your reaction.

Re-read the thread Golden Robster. It was a simple illustration. Town must eliminate scum through their votes (as per your wincon). It is a simple game mechanism. mn said he didn't need to vote his scum-reads. By this time, I gauged what game he was playing and provoked some emotion/direction into his posts.

The seriousness at which you responded to his posts alarmed me.

I was being "serious" because mn said he was being serious about his early posts. Serious reads require serious reasons.

[Keyser Söze]

Votecount 1.1

Must improve these ice cream pictures SirCakez!

Spoiler:

[Keyser Söze]

I disagree with that last statement.

Making that sort of assumption is tantamount to saying "scum can't be trying too hard in this game and since Keysor seems to be trying he must be town." Something along those lines.

I'm sorry but mafia can't fake this level of transparency

Also, what does everybody think about Ocean?

It's only Page 4 but here we go...



Ok, OceanWind replaces in. He get's straight into the game with a vote and two unexplained town reads:

VOTE: Masquerade

I have townreads on Keyser Soze and mn.

This is OceanWind's choice of entrance = direct. No jokes or small talk - it shows he's already read the thread. But OceanWind doesn't sheep or jump on the mn/Keyser Soze hate train - he town reads them! Starting a new wagon on Masquerade.

I don't see that from your previous posts:

Is it too early to ask for a force-replace? I really get the feeling mn is only here to antagonize us and not planning on actually playing the game..

That's quite a drastic comment to make during RVS.

Why?

Do you think his behavior has impeded town thus far?

Here, you implicitly defend mn from Masquerade and speak to Masquerade in an accusatory tone ("drastic comment"). That suggests you think Masquerade is probably not town and that you at least lean somewhat town on mn.

What is your read on Keyser Soze now?

I believe OceanWind didn't fully grasp the tone of your "drastic comment" post regarding mn. I read it as you opposing a mod enforced replacement (this has nothing to do with alignment). Thus, OceanWind's perspective of it being "lean somewhat town on mn" is off the mark IMO. However, the fact Golden Robster highlighted Masquerade's post shows that he finds 'something off' with the post. "probably not town" is probably a jump to far though. Both town and scum can miss-read player's tone so null on this.

Mn has been posting reads and scumhunting even if he's not explaining his actions. He is taking in new information and adapting his reads as the game progresses. Early reads are often gut-based and intuitive. There's often not a well-developed logical explanation for them. So, I don't care if he's can't explain a page one read. He may not be scumhunting in the way that most people like and has an unconventional approach. This makes him an easy target.

I like this alot (as in, I can see town-mn from the narrative OceanWind paints here).

I still haven't got a firm read/lean on OceanWind but will observe his scum-read/pressure of Masquerade.

[Keyser Söze]

Anyone around for a chat?

Lieutenant Aquanim! Let's chat.

[Keyser Söze]

tl;dr: I don't like the reads that are being pushed but I do kinda like how it's being pushed. Your thoughts?

I think this self-analysis remark by Golden Robster made me take a step back from the tone of his posts:

Accusatory tone is my playstyle.

Thus, Golden Robster will be on the offensive -

he could be wrong with his points, but he will be on the offence.

Now, with this in mind let's look at "accusatory" attacks/pokes:

Golden Robster's reaction regarding Masquerade's 'let's force replace mn' post:

That's quite a drastic comment to make during RVS.

This is Golden Robster telling Masquerade off. Ok, so where is Golden Robster going with this? Does this make Masquerade bad-town or scum? There is no vote here, so I viewed this as Golden Robster questioning Masquerade's motive (I am unsure if his alignment came into the equation).

Golden Robster's reaction regarding my non-alignment 1-v-1 with mn:

the length to which you went to discredit him seems forced.

In my head I was shouting:

"this is a f*****g miss-rep!"

. "seems forced" is scum-indicative, so why no vote on me? Again, is Golden Robster attacking my playstyle or my alignment?

I disagree with both of those reads but go ahead.

I disagree with Keysor and Masquerade.

Keysor doesn't look town to me.

Ok, he strongly disagrees with OceanWind's reads >>> but why vote OceanWind?
Why doesn't Golden Robster vote me who he scum-reads?

I.e if OceanWind said he was town-reading Masquerade and scum-reading me - would Golden Robster be voting OceanWind? I doubt it. Thus, it smells a bit like confirmation-bias.


TL;DR Golden Robster has been happy to create friction with his "accusatory tone" (add some confirmation bias in there) - I null-town lean read this play.

[Keyser Söze]

Mn has been posting reads and scumhunting even if he's not explaining his actions. He is taking in new information and adapting his reads as the game progresses. Early reads are often gut-based and intuitive. There's often not a well-developed logical explanation for them. So, I don't care if he's can't explain a page one read. He may not be scumhunting in the way that most people like and has an unconventional approach. This makes him an easy target.

^
There are some reads that make another player's alignment as clear as an azure sky of deepest summer. This feels like one, regarding mn's play so far. The paranoid me originally thought:

is this scum-OceanWind who has come into the game late, and defended the underfire mn/Keyser Soze because he knows they're both town?

But then I concluded I was overthinking things. I like OceanWind's town-read and reasons on mn and myself. However, at this time I do not see his scum-read of Masquerade with the same clarity.

I think a few prods are due.

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Keyser Söze Let us remove the Annoying player.

Why would I?

I know you guys have low Intelligence, but please.

Are you unable to read?

If you are Not Impressed yet then That is your problem.

mind games

It is fine, i can understand frustration when playing against me. To be honest I do not like how I play, but It Is the Only way I know how.

mn, I don't know what issues you have at home, but this is

Ice Cream Mafia

- a forum game. No personal attacks.

If you scum-read me, keep your vote on me

. Or are you advocating a Day One policy lynch?

[Keyser Söze]

Anything else you want to talk about before I go sleep?

There's not much to chew on so far, more than half of the players are comatose.


My vote is still on BlueBloodedToffee - it has evolved into a serious vote as his contributions so far are 'unsatisfying' - he's usually a player who makes things happen - not sit back.

Have a good night's sleep.

[Keyser Söze]

Mn's shtick appears to be trying to get reactions out of people

If you have time, run me through a summary of the different reactions that have resulted through mn's posts

[Keyser Söze]

Mn's shtick appears to be trying to get reactions out of people

If you have time, run me through a summary of the different reactions that have resulted through mn's posts

Here's the summary:

annoyance

.

...which is

null-indicative

.
That is my problem in reading into the reactions: I can see

both

town and scum overreacting.

Your vote is currently on mn - thoughts?

[Keyser Söze]

If It means You will get Lynched Day One. Then yes, I am suggesting a policy Lynch.

Do you have any scum-reads you want to share... or is a policy lynch on town the best you have so far?

[Keyser Söze]

SO IS GOLDEN ROBOSTER LYNCHED YET??

LOUD NOISES He's alive and well. Why do you want him dead? Catch up with the thread. 5 pages. Go.

[Keyser Söze]

I dislike how BBT is skating along, can I get some reads? Thoughts?

This is the town-BlueBloodedToffee I know and love:

This is BlueBloodedToffee in this game:

[Keyser Söze]

I can guarantee I will Fix my Act to everyone's liking for the rest of the Game.

Or.. you can fix it now.

"Fix my Act to everyone's liking"

Or.. you can quit this act. You obviously know what you're doing judging by that comment.

Scum hunt.
Express your scum-reads.
Vote for your scum-reads.
Simple.
We could end up being best mates after this game, you never know

We are not lynching town/policy lynching Day One

- that is bad-town play. Anyone pushing a policy lynch on Day One should replace out.

This is Ice Cream Mafia.

[Keyser Söze]

@popsofctown

- more please

[Keyser Söze]

MY STOMACH HURTS...

Stop shaking dem titties.

Let us policy lynch and move on.

now he is SCUM

VOTE: mn

Do you think

Scum

actively push Day One policy lynches or does

Bad Town

?

[Keyser Söze]

thats not funny!!! my stomach hurts so much i cant breathe...

Why are you on mafiascum?

[Keyser Söze]

Answer this then:

Let us policy lynch and move on.

now he is SCUM

VOTE: mn

Do you think

Scum

actively push Day One policy lynches or does

Bad Town

?

[Keyser Söze]

OCEANWIND IS SUSPICIOUS VOTE: OCEANWIND

What happened to this scum-read?

I.e what made OceanWind "suspicious"?
What made OceanWind stop being suspicious?

[Keyser Söze]

I will sheep this.

VOTE: Masquerade

[The sentiment I like: scum would find it easier to chat about policy lynches in early game. They'd be less comfortable/expressive with sharing fake scum-reads).



It's a bit of a companion piece to OceanWind's earlier case:

Masquerade's Post 59 is nitpicking playstyle tells from mn in lieu of scumhunting.

[Keyser Söze]

I assume you know why I voted you though, eh?

For the hell of it? It was the only vote on me and also your first post, so I just assumed it was your RVS vote. But since you're asking this now, I guess you have some other reason. Mind sharing it with us?

@Slandaar, @Phoenix Wright

Is anything going to transpire after this exchange?

It's just hanging there...

are they just words, or are these actually questions that require answers?

[Keyser Söze]

This Game will only be Taken seriously If we Remove the Annoyance.

No policy lynch is happening Day One. Plus, you need to commit to your promise:

I will Fix my Act to everyone's liking for the rest of the Game.

That's right. Fix your attitude. Start playing the game. No more personal insults.

Scum hunt

.

[Keyser Söze]

I don't really see why you have decided to highlight an exchange when the person (me) who's 'turn' it is to respond has not posted since the post was made.

I "decided to highlight" it because when I ask questions (to help me sort players) I expect an answer. I don't post futile/aimless/directionless questions when I am scum-hunting. If they are rhetorical/non-scumhunting questions, then fairplay.

Why so defensive? It was a simple question

Mr.Beetlejuice

.

I didn't intend for my vote to be taken as RVS - I found it odd he didn't ask me about it but asked mn about his hence the original question and then his response makes sense.

...so, are you going to answer his question: "Mind sharing it with us?" - why is Phoenix Wright scum?

Do you feel Phoenix's question requires an answer or is it just words?

Yup, that's why I called it

"just hanging there"

-

I wanted a conclusion from your exchange.

[Keyser Söze]

I Am scumhunting.

Then I must apologise sincerely

.

I thought you were earnestly trying to policy lynch me. If you scum-read me than continue your push.

[Keyser Söze]

I'm starting to not like Keysor's posts. He seemed to be making good points at first, but now he's just flipping a round and looking for any little thing to nitpick.

Me "flipping a round"?

I've been looking at your scum-hunting style for while now wondering if it was alignment indicative...

mn under focus.

You throw down a vote and scum-read. (post 36)

OceanWind under focus.

You jump in with a question. (post 64)

BlueBloodedToffee under focus.

You throw down suspicion (post 158, post 176)

I'm under focus.

You throw down suspicion (post 176).

What I'm saying is,

you're never the first person to engage anything/anyone.

You're the person who's late to every single party.


Show me YOU presenting an original thought or scum-case before accusing me of "flipping a round" people.
Thanks.

[Keyser Söze]

All seriousness - We are talking about policy lynching keyser here who, might not be the best (I don't know), but he doesn't come across as bad.

I don't really think changing a read based on the idea scum wouldn't want to lynch keyser because he isn't a great player is very town-like shall we say

.

Kain rolled over and fell in line with Keyser's logic just like that. In keeping with this theme, Kain proceeds to co-opt Keyser's BBT vote. The tenuous reason that accompanied the apparent change of heart makes me think he's

less interested in forming his own opinions and more interested in adapting ones that he thinks

look

town

.

Excellent points here. The KainTepes scum-narrative is very clear:
VOTE: KainTepes

[Keyser Söze]

Acuses me of sheeping others.

Turns around and sheeps others in his next post.

Seems legit.

Do you agree or disagree with their points? This isn't about me.

Plus, you haven't been sheeping, you've been scavenging on scraps - but I don't think that behaviour is alignment indicative.

[Keyser Söze]

They Just admitted To being Scum. Time To Lynch.

It Was Not An Admission Of Alignment. I Said Pursue Your Scumreads. Scum Hunt. But Please, Do Not, For The Love Of God, Push A Policy Lynch On Day One. The End.

[Keyser Söze]

They

Moreover, Who, Are "They"?

[Keyser Söze]

Try not to discuss other ongoing games mate (only completed games). It's a site rule thing.

[Keyser Söze]

After some meditation and herbal tea, here are some further thoughts on KainTepes that I'd like to discuss...

KainTepes has a habit of posting conclusions, but

not adding the supporting reasoning of how he got there

i.e explaining why certain behaviour is alignment indicative:

OK A QUICK LOOK AT ROBOSTER SHOWS ME HE IS PROBABLY TOWN... UNVOTE:

OCEANWIND IS SUSPICIOUS VOTE: OCEANWIND

MN IS NULL

now he is SCUM

VOTE: mn

WHY do you keep avoiding,,

VOTE: BLUE BLOOD COFFEE

WHY ISNO ONE TALKING ABOUT ME....

VOTE: PHOENIX WROUGHT

In my head I'm thinking:

"why the f**k isn't KainTepes explaining what he's doing/thinking?"

But that made me reason, why would scum-KainTepes think he could get away with this...? I.e surely scum-KainTepes would at least feel obliged to leave some false-reasoning to justify where he is going/why he is reading a certain player scum/null/town.


KainTepes is being faithful to his roleplay - this naturally provokes attention from everyone (do scum want that?) - but this play/posting-style also gives him freedom to post anything he wants and fall back on his roleplay persona (defensive mechanism). A scum-case/votes are on him, what does he do? He throws down a random/naked vote which is oblivious to the posts that have gone before!



Let's go back here:

All seriousness - We are talking about policy lynching keyser here who, might not be the best (I don't know), but he doesn't come across as bad.

I don't really think changing a read based on the idea scum wouldn't want to lynch keyser because he isn't a great player is very town-like shall we say

.

Kain rolled over and fell in line with Keyser's logic just like that. In keeping with this theme, Kain proceeds to co-opt Keyser's BBT vote. The tenuous reason that accompanied the apparent change of heart makes me think he's

less interested in forming his own opinions and more interested in adapting ones that he thinks

look

town

.

Excellent points here. The KainTepes scum-narrative is very clear:
VOTE: KainTepes

These are very believable scum-indicative points that keep my suspicion festering on his slot.

This is where I am>>>> I neither have a full town read or full scum read on KainTepes. I don't know if this is town-KainTepes with no strong reads of his own, like a kite dancing in a hurricane... or scum-KainTepes exploiting the fragility of his playstyle.

I need more time with this slot.

[Keyser Söze]

I AM KIND OF LONELY FEELING IN THIS GAME......

Come to papa! What do you want to talk about?

- we could talk about why you choose not to read the thread... (or intentional avoidance )
- the current wagon (and reasons) on you
- any other reads you have

[Keyser Söze]

I don't feel your thoughts on Kain are worth discussing Keyser. It's just a lot of waffle.

If you ignore, as you should, what should be playstyle related things

you can then look at actual alignment indicative things ie my argument (perhaps TTH's argument(s)? -I didn't read that post)

This is a good point - I think I am maybe reading too much into his playstyle. [i.e thinking scum-motivation contradicts with what he is choosing to post (and not choosing to post)]

[Keyser Söze]

It was a simple question in essence but the problem is that it seems a strange simple question to ask. And, now, you have not actually tackled the issue I raised and instead have accused me of being defensive.

From my perspective there were questions questions questions infront of me, no answers. I mention your name, you beetlejuice in within minutes. You are now pro-actively scum-hunting/putting players under pressure. Good good good.

I may answer the question in a bit.

Yes, please do. Please connect the dots. That's what I wanted from the very start - not a chat about activity.

Your question is beginning to look rather aimless/directionless is it not?

My question was not aimless/directionless - it made both you and Phoenix Wright ACT. I wanted answers, I wanted connections. I didn't want it to hang hang hang.

I had not been around to post.

Good - all I wanted were answers.

[Keyser Söze]

I forgot i kind of FORGOT what i wanted to say...... but basically that I suspect KEYSER and AQUANIM a little for jumping on wagons, KEYSER voted me while still showing some kind of reluctance (So that if he takes his vote off he can just say oh I wasnt SURE thats why), same with AQUA, who seems willing to vote for either MASQUERADE or ME, looks like scum vote hopping from one town wagon to another???

VOTE: AQUANIM

Go through post 223 with me, and tell me which parts sound scummy/opportunistic. Are my observations accurate or reachy?

Note

I voted you with conviction

: Slandaar/TellTaleHeart presented a strong scum-narrative for your slot (post 182)

However, yes, there is a "reluctance" as you say: after looking further at your ISO this morning, I saw no-scum motivation in the way you are playing (playstyle). Scum do not talk themselves into a lynch (unless setting they are setting up a bus gambit).

[Keyser Söze]

I dislike him going after kain.

After slandar laid down some suspicion about kain, telltale jumps in there with the gun, giving weak reasoning and pushing for it.

I'm thinking this kain wagon is a mislynch.

That's a

pretty drastic overstatement

seeing there's only two votes on Kain.

Indeed -

all pressure is good

(especially Day One), but opposing/shouting down a wagon calling it a "mislynch" indicates four things:

- either Golden Robster has a strong town-read of KainTepes
- Golden Robster knows KainTepes is town and wants town-cred defending a townie
- Golden Robster is chainsaw defending his scum partner
- Golden Robster is guilty of confirmation bias (i.e scum-reading the people on KainTepes' wagon)


Which one is it Golden Robster?

[Keyser Söze]

Yup, I'm back to null on KainTepes. That OMGUS on Aquanim has left me speechless.

UNVOTE: KainTepes

[Keyser Söze]

WHY ARE YOU SPEECHLESS???? I LIKE SPEECHES,,

- the unexplained scum/null/town reads/votes
- the missing chunks of the thread to throw a random vote down
- the OMGUS scum-read on me
- the OMGUS vote on Aquanim
- the hide-behind-playstyle defense
- the flip-flopping
- the "look at my meta guys, this is town me!" card
- the "THAT MAKES ME CRY" appeal to emotion card



This is too easy. I hate easy lynches. This isn't scum for me.

Speechless = I am WIFOM'd out.

[Keyser Söze]

do you really go to HOGWARTS SCHOOL???

Yes, House Slytherin.

[Keyser Söze]

Hi

you havent contributed ANYTHING?? VOTE: SIRCAKEZ

Is this helping you achieve your town WIN-CON?

[Keyser Söze]

No time today.

Tomorrow.

*POKE*

[Keyser Söze]

It just so happens when you said my name I was coming online.

Ok, I believe you.

I probably wouldn't do it if I were scum but then maybe I would knowing... etc etc. Not even worth thinking about.

Agreed - the above sentence is pure WIFOM, therefore I will disregard it.

The exchange would have resolved without you bringing it up thus your question was completely pointless.

As I said before, I wanted answers. Unanswered questions make me uncomfortable. So please connect the dots (...and tbh the low activity/apathetic vibe from the thread was making me frustrated). However, I accept your right to ignore/disagree with my motivation for asking.

Why exactly would he play this way as town and then as scum would play sensible?

I would need to dig deeper into his site-meta - ie.

does he get results/reactions from said playstyle?

The orgy of evidence on KainTepes

Active lurking/fluff post #1: an observation that says nothing (post 116)
Empty wagon driving #1 post 117
Easy change of read #1 (post 120)
Unexplained town-read #1 (post 120)
Unexplained scum-read #1 (post 120)
Unexplained null-read #1 (post 120)
Easy change of read #2 (post 127)
Unexplained scum-read #2 (post 127)
Active lurking/fluff post #2 (post 140)
Active lurking/fluff post #3 (post 142)
Easy change of read #3 (post 152)
Voting a slot because of low-activity (post 157)
Does not acknowledge/read posts (post 206)
Unexplained scum-read #3 (post 206)
Active lurking/fluff post #4 (post 207)
Active lurking/fluff post #5 (post 208)
Easy change of read #4 (post 230)
OMGUS scum-read (post 233)
OMGUS vote (post 233)
Self-meta defence (post 241)
Appeal to emotion (post 241)
Active lurking/fluff post #6 (post 244)
Active lurking/fluff post #7 (post 247)
Active lurking/fluff post #8 (post 252)
Empty wagon driving #2 (post 257)
Empty wagon driving #3 (post 278)

Where is KainTepes presenting his developed scum-read of a player?
Do I see town-motivation permeating in his posts, trying to find out the alignment of all the players?
Do I believe the sincerity and strength of KainTepes' scum-reads?
Do I believe the sincerity and strength of KainTepes' null-reads?
Do I believe the sincerity and strength of KainTepes' town-reads?
Where is KainTepes showing me that he believes in what he is posting/who he is voting?
Does KainTepes change his position/read like a switch?
Can I see KainTepes' scum-hunting thought-process?
Can I see KainTepes pushing wagons with no supporting reasoning?
Do I see KainTepes challenging the reads of other players with supporting reasoning?

This is the easiest lynch I've ever seen. KainTepes will be today's lynch.

[Keyser Söze]

Don't worry KainTepes, I won't be voting you. I don't believe in easy lynches. Unfortunately for you though, I think you're f****d mate.

BTW I JUST FINISHED A GAME WHERE I LOST CAN SOMEONE TEACH ME WHERE I DID WRONG???

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=65395

Use the Mafia Discussion Forum for this.

KEYSER AND AQUANIM ARE SCUM BUDDIES.

Present to me your Keyser Söze-Aquanim scum-case.
GO.

[Keyser Söze]

PBC I HAVE PLAYED OVER 1000 GAMES ON TOWN OF SALEM AND WHEN TWO PLAYERS VOTE ON A WAGON AFTER A FIRST VOTE THEY TEND TO BE MAFIA TOGETHER???

You firmly believe scum would pile onto a 'miss-lynch' wagon?
Of the games I've played on mafiascum it's usually a one-on, one-off strategy.

I've rarely seen a scum-team pile on early (unless it is a bus, where their partner is basically dead-weight scum).

Take a step back - do you think scum and town have reason to be voting for you right now? Look at the comments challenging you - they do not believe you have a town win-con neither are exercising town-motivation in your play. They are shitting on your weak flip-flop changeable reads. Morever, their patience is wearing thin. I think your OMGUS-scum read/vote is short-sighted. I've seen this all too many times - and if this is a miss-lynch there is only 1 person to blame.

[Keyser Söze]

Who do you think is a better lynch?

At this current time I do no want to lynch anyone, but I will present my Finger of Suspicion on Masquerade this afternoon. He is in my uncomfortable pile.

THIS is TERRIBLE.... BBT LOOKS SO MUCH MORE INACTIVE THIS GAME THAN IN ALL THE GAMES WHERE HE IS TOWN,, I WILL NOT GIVE HIM ANY MORE CHANCES..............

VOTE: BLUE BLOODED TOFFEE

In your "1000 GAMES ON TOWN OF SALEM" do you make a habit of voting for non-active players?
BlueBloodedToffee can't reply.
My vote on BlueBloodedToffee was being wasted.
BlueBloodedToffee owes us a catch-up.

Where has your Keyser Söze-Aquanim scum-case gone?

[Keyser Söze]

you NEED to tell me what a SCUM-CASE is first??

Imagine that this is a court case, and you want to prove that myself and Aquanim are scum partners. You need to provide a convincing case to the jury to prove our guilt.



This is a team game - your reads may be 100% accurate, however, without the support of your team the scum will not be eliminated.



Thus, why did you drop your Keyser Söze-Aquanim scum-case and then leave your vote on a slot that is not active. Push/present your Keyser Söze-Aquanim scum-case.

Your current argument is:

'in one previous game, 2 scum jumped on a miss-lynch wagon after 1 vote'

and you are concluding it is the same case here. This is a logical fallacy. Do you have any other supporting evidence that points to a Keyser Söze-Aquanim scum-team, or is that the only item of evidence?

[Keyser Söze]

Where did this guy go?>>>>>>>



I'm been perusing his sole push / single scum-case. It's on me in fact!

Let's break it down shall we...

VOTE: Keyser Söze Let us

remove the Annoying player

.

This Keyser Guy Is

Incredibly annoying

. If we Lynch him today I can guarantee I will Fix my Act to everyone's liking for the rest of the Game.

This Game will only be Taken seriously If we

Remove the Annoyance

.

Is this a Day One Policy Lynch or a push to lynch scum?

They Just admitted To being Scum

. Time To Lynch

"Just admitted To being Scum"?!? how do I defend myself against that?

You used Commas wrong

. The Lynch on You is a Go still.

"used Commas wrong"?!? - that's a scum-slip 101. I can't believe I used commas wrong

May I present my conclusions

I don't believe there is one genuine reason in his case to be scum-reading me/pushing my lynch that hard.
I don't believe that mn wants to lynch me.
I don't believe that mn thinks others will support his scum-case on me.
I don't believe the sincerity of his reads, neither the strength.
I believe his push-for-my-lynch outweighs his resolve to sort/find out the alignment of all the players.

mn, come back online and present something tangible. Right now I'm not town-reading you - why would you waste my time?

[Keyser Söze]

Frankly, Robster's absence right now is more concerning than massive, BBT, or mn's to me.

Yes, let's bump this too (it's burning a hole in my pocket):

Spoiler: Outstanding item to address

I dislike him going after kain.

After slandar laid down some suspicion about kain, telltale jumps in there with the gun, giving weak reasoning and pushing for it.

I'm thinking this kain wagon is a mislynch.

That's a

pretty drastic overstatement

seeing there's only two votes on Kain.

Indeed -

all pressure is good

(especially Day One), but opposing/shouting down a wagon calling it a "mislynch" indicates four things:

- either Golden Robster has a strong town-read of KainTepes
- Golden Robster knows KainTepes is town and wants town-cred defending a townie
- Golden Robster is chainsaw defending his scum partner
- Golden Robster is guilty of confirmation bias (i.e scum-reading the people on KainTepes' wagon)


Which one is it Golden Robster?

P.EDIT Good luck!

[Keyser Söze]

I just wish people like you would say

~using words~

why Kain is more likely to be town than not.

I do not town-read him, thus, WILL NOT be presenting a town-case on him.

Doing otherwise just adds to the dysfunction of this game by speculating on stupid, irrelevant, imaginary crap.

I've presented a list of reasons why KainTepes should no longer be in the game - he'll very likely be today's lynch.

Please point out what is "stupid, irrelevant, imaginary crap" in the following case:

Spoiler: The people versus KainTepes. Case #4028715

The orgy of evidence on KainTepes

Active lurking/fluff post #1: an observation that says nothing (post 116)
Empty wagon driving #1 post 117
Easy change of read #1 (post 120)
Unexplained town-read #1 (post 120)
Unexplained scum-read #1 (post 120)
Unexplained null-read #1 (post 120)
Easy change of read #2 (post 127)
Unexplained scum-read #2 (post 127)
Active lurking/fluff post #2 (post 140)
Active lurking/fluff post #3 (post 142)
Easy change of read #3 (post 152)
Voting a slot because of low-activity (post 157)
Does not acknowledge/read posts (post 206)
Unexplained scum-read #3 (post 206)
Active lurking/fluff post #4 (post 207)
Active lurking/fluff post #5 (post 208)
Easy change of read #4 (post 230)
OMGUS scum-read (post 233)
OMGUS vote (post 233)
Self-meta defence (post 241)
Appeal to emotion (post 241)
Active lurking/fluff post #6 (post 244)
Active lurking/fluff post #7 (post 247)
Active lurking/fluff post #8 (post 252)
Empty wagon driving #2 (post 257)
Empty wagon driving #3 (post 278)

Where is KainTepes presenting his developed scum-read of a player?
Do I see town-motivation permeating in his posts, trying to find out the alignment of all the players?
Do I believe the sincerity and strength of KainTepes' scum-reads?
Do I believe the sincerity and strength of KainTepes' null-reads?
Do I believe the sincerity and strength of KainTepes' town-reads?
Where is KainTepes showing me that he believes in what he is posting/who he is voting?
Does KainTepes change his position/read like a switch?
Can I see KainTepes' scum-hunting thought-process?
Can I see KainTepes pushing wagons with no supporting reasoning?
Do I see KainTepes challenging the reads of other players with supporting reasoning?

This is the easiest lynch I've ever seen. KainTepes will be today's lynch.

If you scum-read him, get him lynched. But don't come crying and moaning about me not being able to highlight his pro-town/productive scum-hunting posts.

[Keyser Söze]

BTW I JUST FINISHED A GAME WHERE I LOST CAN SOMEONE TEACH ME WHERE I DID WRONG???

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=65395

Use the Mafia Discussion Forum for this.

Why pass up an opportunity to get a read on Kain as a consequence of discussing it here? This post struck me like scum trying too hard to contribute. The only thing those 7 words imaginably accomplishes is preventing an alignment indicative conversation

@popsofctown

If I want to discuss games other than this game, I will discuss games other than this game. But I will likely choose to do so outside of this thread. The thread is already cluttered with enough non-game related fluff/draining/apathetic bullshit.

You have made 8 posts.

You are scraping the barrel

if you are getting excited over me telling KainTepes to discuss

Micro 583: Kids With Guns

elsewhere. If KainTepes wants to present something that will help us eliminate scum in THIS game he is welcome to. Me choosing not to discuss Micro 583: Kids With Guns is NOT scum-alignment indicative.

If you want to town-meta defend/scum-meta attack KainTepes do it here right now. But DO NOT accuse me of "preventing an alignment indicative conversation" - because I am presently engaged in this CURRENT game.

If I draw on meta I will present it. DO NOT accuse me of "trying too hard to contribute", I'm already finding it hard to keep motivated playing this game. I did not accuse you of "preventing an alignment indicative conversation" by not digging up everybody's other games - so you are in NO position to scum-read me for choosing not to either.

[Keyser Söze]

I will be back tomorrow evening/Monday.

I promise to not be a "mean person" for the rest of the game. I will also make sure any points/reads/problems I want to share are clear, concise and direct.

I feel that taking a short break from this game has cleared my head.

[Keyser Söze]

But this all falls flat on it's face when it always ends with a null read and a serious lack of committment and conviction.

This is not scum alignment indicative and you should know this. Both scum and town can demonstrate a "lack of commitment and conviction" in a read. You do not scum read and lynch someone based on this - it is tactically naive and absurd. I would actually be more fearful of players who push a 'closed case' strong read of a player after a short/light catch-up. Where is the town-paranoia and investigation before your definitive conclusion?
Thus, I refute your logic and your play actually tends itself to opportunism. I do not believe you have read the full thread, as you have no grasp of the tone/content of my posts.



This is my position on KainTepes: I am having difficulty reading KainTepes. I see overwhelming tells in his play that I usually associate with scum behaviour, but I personally attach alot of importance to WIFOM in my analysis. Therefore, the fact I can't see KainTepes possessing the scum-motivation to be lynched/investigated early forces me to null-read KainTepes. I attacked both KainTepes and mn as bad players (which I admit was anti-town) - but this was due to my frustration with their posts - they are not playing the way I want a townie to play.

[Keyser Söze]

I will study the last 5 pages later and share my reads/thoughts, but I feel I needed to clarify those two points as I felt my play was being massively miss-represented by BlueBloodedToffee.

[Keyser Söze]

Slandaar, help me lynch Keyser.

Slandaar will try to lynch me if he scum-reads me, and I talk through all his items of concern. However, I would not respect Slandaar as a player if he blindly sheeps you - I think Slandaar wouldn't respect me if I did the same. So why do you feel the need to push Slandaar onto my wagon? He is currently engaged in a conversation with me. Do you sense he is not town-reading me? Again I see this as opportunistic behaviour.


As I skimmed the reasons why people voted me they are all weak/non-alignment indicative points (mn, GuyFawkes, BlueBloodedToffee, [KainTepes]) - I find them unsatisfying. I will address them one by one later in due time after I have caught up.

[Keyser Söze]

Golden Rob and mn were pinging my scumdar pretty hard. Like...ahh...I can handle mn's playstyle and attitude, but the way he reacts and brings up Golden Rob's slot seems like buddy to me.

On a side note of that, holy Keyscum Soze.

I'm liking TTH; I'm happy to town read her.

Can you show me the posts where you got to these conclusions/reads.

Do you scum-read mn outside of that pre-flip associative "buddy" up tell with Golden Robster?

[Keyser Söze]

I think it's more likely scum is pushing his lynch

Show me the "likely scum" pushing KainTepes' wagon. I.e show me the thought-process and posts of the people you think are scum, pushing KainTepes' lynch.

Either support these claims or present a neutral/null case.

[Keyser Söze]

KainTepes is town but that's obvi

town-Kain is suspicious of everyone, even people not trying to mislynch him and Phoenix Wrought. It's very healthy mistrust.

I would like popsofctown to explain how KainTepes is obvious town. I do not feel the above reason is suffice.

Keyser -- remind me again, why you have a bucketful of indicators towards scum-Kain, but aren't going to vote him?

this

VOTE: keyser soze

Please explain in your own words why you think me not voting my null-read is scum-indicative. Again, this is surface reading - you did not attempt to read my reason for unvoting KainTepes. What is your personal read of KainTepes?

I'm not convinced he's town but I'm not convinced he's scum either. I AM convinced that he's not a VI and there's gotta be some method to his madness. So I'd rather look elsewhere for somebody to lynch

How can you be scum-reading me when you too see indicators that he's not town, neither scum (thus null)?

And I completely disagree with this. Keyser is not being pro-active, sure he is posting a lot but what are his posts actually achieving? They are all 'could be this, could be that' posts designed to plant seeds in other people's thoughts and allow them to carry out his work for him. Look through his posts in the first 5 pages, he states a lot of things but he always refrains from committing to a read. Keeps all his reads in limbo so he can change them as and when he needs to.

Is he transparent? Again, sure he is. But what is he achieving? He isn't pushing anything, he isn't stating scum reads, he isn't stating people he would like to see lynched for x, y and z reasons. He is simply throwing out a lot of thoughts and seeing what sticks.

It was the "first 5 pages", why/how would I be presenting strong scum-reads for "x, y and z reasons" that early into the game when I was sorting players? I would never ''commit to read'' that early - no one is closed case.

"He is simply throwing out a lot of thoughts and seeing what sticks."

- this is another weak/generic unsupported non-alignment indicative reason to be scum-reading a player. I could accuse that of many players early Day One.

[Keyser Söze]

TTH, you don't want to entertain a Keyser wagon?

Another attempt by BlueBloodedToffee to push a player onto my wagon without providing a solid alignment argument.

VOTE: KEYSER

DIE KEYSERRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! YOU ARE A MEAN PERSON!!!!

Another weak vote/reason on my slot that does not present a solid alignment argument.

THEN WE LYNCH YOU INSTEAD!!!!

VOTE: TELL TALE HEART

YOU ARE SCUMMATES WITH KEYSER TEPES

Please present your Keyser Söze-TellTaleHeart scum narrative.

KEYSER TEPES, AQUANIM, OCEAN WIND AND TELL TALE HEART ARE ALL SCUM MATES......

Again, I need to see why you are posting this for me to take your reads seriously. Show me your thought-process.

[Keyser Söze]

Who do you think is a better lynch?

At this current time I do no want to lynch anyone, but I will present my Finger of Suspicion on Masquerade this afternoon. He is in my uncomfortable pile.

I will present this soon [FoS: GuyFawkes/Masquerade].

BlueBloodedToffee is also in my uncomfortable pile:
- blind/empty wagon driving
- pushing non-alignment indicative behaviour as scummy
- opportunistic play
- possible buddying attempt

BlueBloodedToffee's false-pressure on OceanWind's slot makes me want to revisit that slot too.



I have a group in my comfortable pile - players who I believe are actually:
- trying to sort players, asking insightful questions, challenging me/others with reasoning
- not pushing empty wagons, not pushing non-alignment indicative points.

I will discuss these once I have expressed my scum-reads/scum-leans (players in my uncomfortable pile) - excluding KainTepes and mn who have tested my patience enough, but I am happy to put their slots to a side for now until they share the thought-process behind their scum-reads.

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser and TELLTALEHEART is because TELLTALE keeps defending Keyser,,

Mafia likely will defend other mafia, because fewer mafia means mafia is more likely to lose,,

This is a scum-reading on a pre-flip associative tell. How can you say with such unsupported/unexplained conviction this is scum defending scum. I.e because you scum read me, you are scum reading TellTaleHeart. Why can't this be town defending town, scum defending town, or town defending scum? Your conclusion is short-sighted.

Do you scum-read me and TellTaleHeart outside of this pre-flip association? Please provide these reasons - because I am NOT seeing it in your argument.

[Keyser Söze]

ISO re-read: Golden Robster

[Golden Robster starts as a null-town lean read.]

The witty memes are funny but the length to which you went to discredit him seems forced.

I admit I was 'discrediting' mn as a player (anti-town behaviour which I apologized for) but nowhere did I discredit mn in the way of miss-repping his actions as scummy. I was unsure in which sense Golden Robster meant discredit, but later he confirms it as the way I used GIFS and my sarcastic question about a scum-win con. Therefore, Golden Robster was not miss-repping my actions here.


I like Golden Robster challenging the reads of OceanWind here (to explain in detail):

VOTE: Masquerade

I have townreads on Keyser Soze and mn.

And presumably you scum read masquerade since your voting him.

Why?

I disagree with both of those reads but go ahead. Explain.

UNVOTE: Massive

VOTE: Oceanwind

Golden Robster isn't going to wait for OceanWind's explanation - Golden Robster wants to express his conflicting opinion with OceanWind straight away.

Holy shit I just found scum

Does Golden Robster follow this strong scum-read up?

Yes, Golden Robster wants thoughts/support on OceanWind:

Also, what does everybody think about Ocean?

I like where my vote is currently.

Anybody want to get an Oceanwind wagon going?

Making that sort of assumption is tantamount to saying "scum can't be trying too hard in this game and since Keysor seems to be trying he must be town." Something along those lines.

I actually like this more re-reading this now - it makes OceanWind's town-read of me sound like a generic/easy reason to town-read me. This makes me want to look back at my notes on OceanWind:

Spoiler: Possible scum-indicative behaviour highlighted red

Ok, OceanWind replaces in. He get's straight into the game with a vote and

two unexplained town reads

:

VOTE: Masquerade

I have townreads on Keyser Soze and mn.

This is OceanWind's choice of entrance = direct. No jokes or small talk -

it shows he's already read the thread

. But OceanWind doesn't sheep or jump on the mn/Keyser Soze hate train - he town reads them! Starting a new wagon on Masquerade.

I don't see that from your previous posts:

Is it too early to ask for a force-replace? I really get the feeling mn is only here to antagonize us and not planning on actually playing the game..

That's quite a drastic comment to make during RVS.

Why?

Do you think his behavior has impeded town thus far?

Here, you implicitly defend mn from Masquerade and speak to Masquerade in an accusatory tone ("drastic comment"). That suggests you think Masquerade is probably not town and that you at least lean somewhat town on mn.

What is your read on Keyser Soze now?

I believe OceanWind didn't fully grasp the tone of your "drastic comment" post regarding mn. I read it as you opposing a mod enforced replacement (this has nothing to do with alignment). Thus,

OceanWind's perspective of it being "lean somewhat town on mn" is off the mark IMO

. However, the fact Golden Robster highlighted Masquerade's post shows that he finds 'something off' with the post.

"probably not town" is probably a jump to far though

. Both town and scum can miss-read player's tone so null on this.

Mn has been posting reads and scumhunting even if he's not explaining his actions. He is taking in new information and adapting his reads as the game progresses. Early reads are often gut-based and intuitive. There's often not a well-developed logical explanation for them. So, I don't care if he's can't explain a page one read. He may not be scumhunting in the way that most people like and has an unconventional approach. This makes him an easy target.

I like this alot (as in, I can see town-mn from the narrative OceanWind paints here).

I still haven't got a firm read/lean on OceanWind but will observe his scum-read/pressure of Masquerade.

Mn has been posting reads and scumhunting even if he's not explaining his actions. He is taking in new information and adapting his reads as the game progresses. Early reads are often gut-based and intuitive. There's often not a well-developed logical explanation for them. So, I don't care if he's can't explain a page one read. He may not be scumhunting in the way that most people like and has an unconventional approach. This makes him an easy target.

^
There are some reads that make another player's alignment as clear as an azure sky of deepest summer. This feels like one, regarding mn's play so far. The paranoid me originally thought:

is this scum-OceanWind who has come into the game late, and defended the underfire mn/Keyser Soze because he knows they're both town?

But then I concluded I was overthinking things. I like OceanWind's town-read and reasons on mn and myself. However, at this time

I do not see his scum-read of Masquerade with the same clarity.

OceanWind replaces out so we never see his firm push on Masquerade.

Indeed, now I see.

Tom Hanks the savior.

This is a good reaction to my playstyle - Golden Robster is embracing it.

Telltale is scum.

Discuss

I do not know where this read came from... but Golden Robster explains:

I dislike him going after kain.

After slandar laid down some suspicion about kain, telltale jumps in there with the gun, giving weak reasoning and pushing for it.

I'm thinking this kain wagon is a mislynch.

If Kaintepes is town, how can Golden Robster differentiate between TellTaleHeart being opportunistic scum OR a genuine townie with a scum read of KainTepes' play? Does scum-Golden Robster chainsaw defend scum-partner KainTepes - I don't think so. This is scum-town, town-scum or town-town.

I wanted Golden Robster to explain the "kain wagon is a mislynch" comment (post 239)

Which Golden Robster does here (Golden Robster's defence of KainTepes is based on personal previous experience with him):

I admit, the kain wagon being a mislynch is more to do with my experiences of playing with him.

He is always this loud, annoying (anti-town) and contradictory in some cases.

I wouldn't mind lynching him but as I said before, I think he'll flip town and it wouldn't surprise me.

Golden Robster is not happy with Boonskiies empty reads (similar thinking):

But alas, i shall have to ask you to give your thoughts and feels on why keysor is scum

and your feelings of oceanwind and guyfawkes

Town-lean

[Keyser Söze]

[I was joking to myself... by the time I eventually post this FoS, GuyFawkes would be a null read I think BlueBloodedToffee would appreciate that joke.]

Finger of Suspicion: GuyFawkes/Masquerade

Part One

An unusual amount of time/posts/focus on mn (which sounds like a policy lynch push):
(post 27, post 38, post 57, post 59)
My concern: scum would find it easier to talk about/attack non-alignment indicative play, focusing their attention so narrowly instead of everyone. There is nothing wrong with Masquerade flagging mn's playstyle, but I need to see his same anger/attention/interest in 'finding scum'.

Masquerade wants to confirm his actions (thus, he is conscious of what his actions are being viewed as):

To everyone else, I want to make clear that I'm not scumreading mn.

Masquerade is demonstrating that he is patient now:

I don't see any reason to PL anyone rn.

I'm not interested in lynching people just for being annoying.

Masquerade has so far not expressed many reads, i is early game so it is understandable (but Masquerade chooses to slef-meta defend himself) - I do not like these:

I always have a slow start. I get scumread a lot for it early in the game. It's getting boring.

Where is Masquerade's scum-hunting...?
Is this scum-hunting:

@Robster: Do you think TTH is scum?

Gtg but will try to post some reads when I get back tonight.

Is this because Masquerade had developed reads... or he has been forced to express reads under pressure? If I don't have strong reads I engage players, I am not seeing this with Masquerade.

Thus, is this vote a forced vote, to show that he is 'active'?:

VOTE: Kain
Time to post content.

Oh
UNVOTE:

@Aquanim: Just the one post where he seems to have reason. I don't completely agree with his reads but it shows he put thought into it.

I feel the reason for voting is weak, and the unvote and subsequent reason is weak too.

@mod

and players: I'm going to replace out. Too many distracting factors in this game. GL.

Why didn't Masquerade sink his teeth into these "distracting factors".

To me, this is a slot that never got started. I cannot see no real drive/earnest endeavor to sort people.

Part Two: GuyFawkes ISO re-read next.

[Keyser Söze]

if they're not interesting why not help me put Keyser to L-1 to force a claim? That could be a bit more entertaining and give us something new to debate also.

I agree that wagons are useful information reference points but your vote-motivation to "force a claim" is

anti-town

. But thanks for being honest

Let's not lynch until everyone has caught up, pls & ty.

I do not understand

why L-1/lynching/claiming is even being discussed right now...

[Keyser Söze]

Then could you explain to me why a wagon for info that leads to a claim is

anti-town

Wagons are useful to see how people react to votes being on them (and seeing who opposes or supports the wagon). But forcing votes onto a wagon to purely get a roleclaim is anti-town.

If a player is put to L-1 because there are scum-cases attached to those votes that is very useful.

However, your plan to make people jump onto my wagon purely to get me to L-1/roleclaim does not encourage discussion/reactions as both town and scum can add empty sheep votes onto my wagon. How can I differentiate the opportunistic scum votes from the blind sheep town votes following your anti-town plan - it is butchery of logic and pro-town play. Your vote is currently on me. I was not satisfied with mn's reason for being on my wagon. What is your motivation/reason?

[Keyser Söze]

Point in case:

Meh. Why not?

VOTE: Keyser

Boonskiies has followed your anti-town roleclaim plan. This tells me nothing. Is Boonkiies opportunistic scum or a blind sheep?

I would rather Boonskiies present why he thinks I am scum.

[Keyser Söze]

Part Two: GuyFawkes ISO re-read next.

KainTepes is like performance art and I think its fantastic. he could be scum but I see no need to worry about him yet. I think it's more likely scum is pushing his lynch

This post holds 3 positions:
1) KainTepes "could be scum" - but no formed argument.
2) "I see no need to worry about him yet" - has GuyFawkes made an effort to sort KainTepes Day One?
3) "it's more likely scum is pushing his lynch" - GuyFawkes needs to support this accusation, otherwise he should of presented a neutral conclusion.

Keyser -- remind me again, why you have a bucketful of indicators towards scum-Kain, but aren't going to vote him?

this

VOTE: keyser soze

Please explain in your own words why you think me not voting my null-read is scum-indicative. Again, this is surface reading - you did not attempt to read my reason for unvoting KainTepes. What is your personal read of KainTepes?

[Note - GuyFawkes' end position on KainTepes: "I'm not convinced he's town but I'm not convinced he's scum either".]

GuyFawkes' comes back to the thread, (his vote is still on me), but the following post just feels like an empty pressure comment to keep the focus on me:

Keyser, do you remember coming up with an "orgy of evidence" against Kain Tepes? or calling him the easiest lynch you've ever seen? and stating that he will be today's lynch?

'cause if that's how you talk about your null reads I can't wait to see what you say about scum

I do not get the sense that the GuyFawkes-Masquerade slot is trying to sort players. There are no real inquisitive pushes/questions with players. Who has GuyFawkes engaged? His interactions with me are all closed and mocking.

Scum-lean

Show me you care about finding who is scum and who is town. Right now your focus is narrow - I believe that is intentional.

[Keyser Söze]

To me, this is a slot that never got started. I cannot see no real drive/earnest endeavor to sort people.

Why this slot and not Phoenix?

I was doing a Masquerade ISO. I will discuss Phoenix Wright later.

[Keyser Söze]

At this current time I do no want to lynch anyone, but I will present my Finger of Suspicion on Masquerade this afternoon. He is in my uncomfortable pile.
I will present this soon [FoS: GuyFawkes/Masquerade].

BlueBloodedToffee is also in my uncomfortable pile:
- blind/empty wagon driving
- pushing non-alignment indicative behaviour as scummy
- opportunistic play
- possible buddying attempt

Spoiler: BlueBloodedToffee: anti-town or opportunistic wagon pusher?

He isn't pushing anything, he isn't stating scum reads, he isn't stating people he would like to see lynched for x, y and z reasons. He is simply throwing out a lot of thoughts and seeing what sticks.

This is non-alignment indicative. It is common for players to not have strong reads early Day One.

I remembered you would love to lynch me if you were scum.

Logical fallacy. To justify a vote based on this is naive.

Don't you have somewhere you can keep notes like this so you don't have to clutter the thread? There is, of course, other motivations for doing what you do. Wanna hazard a guess at them?

This is discrediting me as a player and my reads.

Another null read?

This is non-alignment indicative. Null-reads are common where players are trying to sort other players early Day One.

but I'm reading that replace out as town.

Replace-outs are non-alignment indicative. (I will note this soft-defence of Masquerade).

VOTE: Keyser

This needs to hang. And fast.

No - first you must present why I am scum.

Slandaar, help me lynch Keyser.

Tries to push Slandaar onto my wagon (knowing well that Slandaar does not town-read me). Why not convince people not scum-reading me to join the wagon?

TTH, you don't want to entertain a Keyser wagon?

Again, this is not presenting why I am scum. It is an empty wagon.

Talk about MN and GR some more. Also, what makes you think Keyser is scum?

Asking others to express why they think I am scum, while not sharing his. Again adding more diluted fuel to an empty wagon.

I don't see Keyser being assertive at all

This is non-alignment indicative.

look at his content. It's poor.

This is discrediting me as a player and my reads.

it always ends with a null read and a serious lack of committment and conviction.

This is non-alignment indicative.

What I do know is that the content he is producing is less than impressive.

This is discrediting me as a player and my reads.

I mean, even when Keyser was voting Kain he still said he needed time to sort the slot.

This is non-alignment indicative. No one is a closed case.

I can't read Kain for shit and I'm hoping he gets vigged.

So why can't I "read Kain for shit" too?
(Because it doesn't fit your Keyser-scum narrative. In your narrative, scum-Keyser isn't allowed to null-read KainTepes).

will you help me lynch Keyser Tomorrow?

Still pushing a lynch but no sound argument.

I want to catch the people who are much more likely to slip through the net. Like Keyser.

If the majority scum-read me I will be lynched. There is no 'slipping through the net'. This is fearmongering.

Alright.

Can you help me lynch Keyser now?

Still pushing a lynch but no sound argument.

There is also the lack of any sort of commitment/conviction to a read and we're on page 22. That's also pretty appalling, no?

I have expressed reads and my thoughts from Page 1. Nevertheless, having no firm reads at 22 is non-alignment indicative.

Scum posting.

Please explain, how I am scum-posting. You need to justify your positions/comments.

TL:DR

BlueBloodedToffee has spent nearly all his time tunneling me (anti-town/scummy) presenting no alignment indicative argument. He has discredited my contributions so far, and is actively pushing only my wagon, instead of trying to figure out who is town, who is scum. I do not feel like BlueBloodedToffee is concerned in engaging me - his only concern (based on his miss-reps, discredits, leeching onto other's reads/thoughts on me, loud/empty wagon pushing and non-alignment indicative argument) is to get me miss-lynched. Take away his his tunnel on me, and his ISO is hollow. I cannot see BlueBloodedToffee's town-motivation in his D1 play so far.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Keyser Söze]

I don't know

why we aren't lynching Golden Robster today

. Okay, I do know, probably the partners factor. But there's like

nothing positive

about his slot. All the opportunism and questionable pushing of the BBT slot but not even a more threads of

positive feel

to it.

VOTE: Golden Robster

I currently do not scum-read Golden Robster.
Can you explain to me what makes a

"positive"

feel.
Show me

"All the opportunism and questionable pushing of the BBT slot"

too.

[Keyser Söze]

Aquanim ISO

Aquanim actively challenging a read: (post 91)

Masquerade doesn't seem to be interested in pushing anything

or

getting information with which to push anything. All I see is a fairly generic question of KainTepes:

Agreed.

Anyone around for a chat?

What do you think?

What part of that do you disagree with?

If you have an explanation for Kain's play besides him being scum flailing or a deliberate troll, you're going to have to sell me on it.

@Phoenix Wright

: Can I get some thoughts from you? You pick what.

If anyone besides Kain doesn't understand why I'm voting him, feel free to ask.

Who do you think is a better lynch?

@Phoenix Wright

: Can I get some thoughts from you? You pick what.

This is not active lurking, this is

inquisitive-play

- asking for opinions, open for questions, open for his position/opinion to be challenged, searching for answers. Aquanim doesn't attack players thinking he has the absolute right answer. If someone has an opposite understanding to him, he doesn't rush in with a strong scum-read/vote, Aquanim wants to be persuaded otherwise.

Aquanim sharing with us his throught-process: (post 313).

I can feel Aquanim's frustration with the KainTepes slot and popsofctown's defence: (post 372, post 380, post 396)

Aquanim's final conclusion on KainTepes:

The more I think about it, the more it rings true with me as scum mentality.

And in the end... if he's a deliberate troll then I will not feel bad about lynching him even if he flips town.

Aquanim attacks KainTepes' vote on my slot (yet another non-alignment indicative reason/anti-town being pushed):

VOTE: KEYSER

DIE KEYSERRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! YOU ARE A MEAN PERSON!!!!

Of all the people in this game, Keyser is not a "mean person", and I don't see how anybody can honestly come to that conclusion.

Aquanim is not surface reading, he is actively looking at motive: (post 486, post 488, post 491).

Town read

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: A wall that is mostly game theory - the salient point is in my answer to Keyser below, just read that for TL:DR

Yes, too long, did not read

why not help me put Keyser to L-1 to

force a claim

? That could be a bit more

entertaining

and give us something new to debate also.

If you cannot see why I think this mentality/idea is anti-town then there is no point engaging you in regard your "let's-force-a-roleclaim-for-entertainment-and-masterdebation-lolz" plan.

I find it especially tactically abhorrent the fact you have not fully caught up, but are willing others to force me to L-1/claim, without providing any thoughts yourself.

Feels empty to me as a slot.

This does not say anything. Instead of saying everything I write is empty, please state which points you agree or disagree with. I was not satisfied with mn's reads, neither am I yours.

So I would suggest catching up please.

Tell me where I am wrong, this is a team game. Just saying I'm an empty slot and pushing people to force me to L-1/roleclaim does nothing for me (productive communication).


Let's look at your 3 recent conclusions:

I wanted to get out there though that BBT came across as a strong townread this page,

I disagree with this - show me "strong townread". Convince me BlueBloodedToffee is 'strong' town.

and TTH as a strong to moderate one.

Yes, I share this read. Show me how you got there.

That bumps Kain into a more lynchable position, even though I'm not the biggest fan of the one case I've seen on him (will be one of the posts I discuss later).

Why/how was KainTepes promoted to a "lynchable position"? Because your town read(s) support that wagon?

I do think he has a chance to be scum - but my disagreements are noted.

So what is your conclusion so far on KainTepes?

[Keyser Söze]

In conclusion, before I move on:

- If you do not wish to explain your town-reads I must respect that decision, but hearing people explain the thought-process behind their reads helps me discern their own alignment. Plus, I believe it's useful information for later (if you were to be lynched/night-killed). I.e an ISO full of unexplained town/scum reads is useless.

- I disagree and object to your anti-town attitude/mindset and force-to-L-1/claim-plan, and disagree with your non-alignment argument.

- Thank you for explaining your position on KainTepes, and I will be interested to see how it develops (as his slot has proven very hard for me to sort personally).

[Keyser Söze]

@popsofctown

Can your highlight/quote these posts for me (points highlighted red interest me) - I did not notice these points in my re-read:

I find Golden Robster pretty scummy. He seems to be poking at random rather than poking at places that are actually

places a townie would be organically concerned about

. It makes it seem like he's doing it just to do something. I'm happy to believe he pokes this much in every game he plays with either alignment, but I bet as town he pick pressure points that are actually points of concern to begin with.

I don't know

why we aren't lynching Golden Robster today

. Okay, I do know, probably the partners factor. But there's like

nothing positive

about his slot.

All the opportunism and questionable pushing of the BBT slot

but not even a more threads of

positive feel

to it.

[Keyser Söze]

Meanwhile, could you do an outside looking in for me - is Keyser's posting looking as empty to you as it is to me. To clarify that, look at his last half a dozen posts and try to find involvement, or serious questing for scum in them, or clear pushing of his scumhunting agenda. I don't see it at all. Do you?

I can't really spoon feed it to you if you don't "see it."

I am attempting to spoon feed the emptiness to you.
Do you not see that?
And if you disagree with the evidence I'm presenting - why is that?

I want you to talk about what you're thinking in attacking it as "weak" compared to other cases on the table, or even other Day 1 cases in general.
That is an unfair, and ungrounded attack - and I want you to explain why you think it valid.

Fair!?
So just because you stacked a bunch of words on top of each other, I should agree with it because it's got a nice ribbon tied around it and it checks off all the boxes in a formulaic, feel-good case like "not asking questions." Is that the "fair" thing to do?

Maybe you're right and maybe that's not fair. But I disagree with the fundamental argument that his posting is "hollow" and I think you, along with the other wagoners, are pretty far from proving it's intentional or strategic to advancing the scum win condition.

@Thor665

. I may be a bad player, but I don't give a shit how long you've been on this site. You need to learn how to listen. That advice will serve you well. You are so up your own ass spouting wordy fluff it clouds your reasoning and logic. Do you actually read your own posts back? - they are comical. Spinning non-alignment indicative arguments, and instead of reasoning with players with conflicting opinions to your own, you basically call them dumb instead. I would actually suggest catching up before holding the ground of knowing everything. Even I will admit some slots have been hard to read.

No one is going to support your fucking anti-town force-to-L1/roleclaim plan. It doesn't matter if it was on me or someone else. It's not happening. We scum hunt here. You can wallpost more game-theory shite but take this advice from a relative beginner.... listen to other players. Who the fuck do you think you are miss-quoting my post and miss-repping my argument? Don't spunk your toxic/anti-town/stubborn attitude on this thread.

You're making this game no fun to play.

Convince TellTaleHeart that I am scum, otherwise shut the fuck up with your "it's-4-days-to-deadline-guys!-let's-get-a-roleclaim!" fearmongering bullshit. I didn't sign up to this fucking game to roleclaim early and be misslynched within a few days. I detest your motives.

I shouldn't need to say all this, because you've probably played over a 100 games FFS. But seriously, sort your fucking attitude out, otherwise I'll need to replace out too.

You are making this game fucking unbearable

. If you disagree with my town reads tell me why. If you disagree with my scum reads tell me why. Like any other normal fucking townie would do. Get the fuck off that high horse. Moreover, explain your fucking town reads, FFS. I don't know what the fuck is going on in your head. This is a fucking team game, we need to catch scum TOGETHER. I can see you pushing wagons but with no scum-alignment indicative argument to support them. I'd usually wouldn't give a fuck if someone upholds their uber-agressive playstyle - but when you're forcing through anti-town play, you need to be shut the fuck down.

[Keyser Söze]

@Keyser - I am not apologizing for my play, and I have never called you stupid - so please stop dropping F-bombs at me.

I didn't expect you to apologise. You are rotten mate, and too stubborn to listen to other players - do you ever think

"what if I am are wrong?"

. This isn't confirmation bias from you, this is just bad anti-town play. If you are town-aligned you will be on ignore list after this game. If you are scum, well-played - you have achieved your desired effect.


This game has officially ran out of ice cream.

@mod/rant over.

Edited out a vulgarity. Please keep it chill (pun intended).

[Keyser Söze]

Deadline: 4 days, 20 hours, 12 minutes. Plenty of time. No fucking early roleclaims.

Can someone present a logical argument (without insults or non-alignment indicative factors) showing how/why BlueBloodedToffee is town. Basically, if he is town, I want to stop wasting my time attacking his tunnel on me, and move on.

Moreover, does anyone null/scum read Aquanim (who I currently town read)? Then we can put that to bed for now too.

[Keyser Söze]

I'm down to lynch Kain, though.

KainTepes' play D1 basically has set himself up for the D1 lynch. If choosing between NO LYNCH or his lynch, I'm going his lynch. Fuck WIFOM, scummy play is scummy play. I'm not going to defend him anymore.

I haven't bothered to look up his soft power roleclaim. More bad play if true. But if it's serious we leave him the fuck alone, unless we have a counter claim.

No more hints/roleclaims/softing please.

[Keyser Söze]

Boonskiies, why the fuck did you sheep that vote on me?
Do you seriously believe my play was scum-trying-to-miss-lynch-townies? Or am I simply a player you're not town-reading right now and my wagon will do?

[Keyser Söze]

@popsofctown

Can your highlight/quote these posts for me (points highlighted red interest me) - I did not notice these points in my re-read:

I find Golden Robster pretty scummy. He seems to be poking at random rather than poking at places that are actually

places a townie would be organically concerned about

. It makes it seem like he's doing it just to do something. I'm happy to believe he pokes this much in every game he plays with either alignment, but I bet as town he pick pressure points that are actually points of concern to begin with.

I don't know

why we aren't lynching Golden Robster today

. Okay, I do know, probably the partners factor. But there's like

nothing positive

about his slot.

All the opportunism and questionable pushing of the BBT slot

but not even a more threads of

positive feel

to it.

Can you answer this ASAP popsofctown. I've had enough waiting. Show me scum-Golden Robster and I'll go there. Otherwise nothing is going to happen.

[Keyser Söze]

50 and 70 seem like posts at places that are not naturally worrisome to me. Just pokable. Asking for a force-replace is totally pokeable, but I don't think it's alignment indicative at all, especially that early on without better context.

Ok, I see this - what scum choose to comment on/push does usually give them away.

The second part, I was saying that BBT is also an aggressive player that looks for reactions, but BBT is actually trying to nurture the pace of the game (like trying to erect a wagon he believes in from L-something really low)

whereas Robster just seemed to pushing his rake against the leaves so he gets paid at the end of the day

. And that's rather consistent with him finally replacing out. If his questions organically arose from his own curiosity, the responses he got (he did get responses) would have kept steering him and kept his enthusiasm aloft. I think the curiosity was feigned in the first place, and he's just emulating his game 1 townplay poorly.

Can you show me bolded please. I can't fully grasp it sorry -if you quote the post(s) in question.




What was your personal take of Golden Robster's "the kain wagon is a mislynch" comment:

I wanted Golden Robster to explain the "kain wagon is a mislynch" comment (post 239)

Which Golden Robster does here (Golden Robster's defence of KainTepes is based on personal previous experience with him):

I admit, the kain wagon being a mislynch is more to do with my experiences of playing with him.

He is always this loud, annoying (anti-town) and contradictory in some cases.

I wouldn't mind lynching him but as I said before, I think he'll flip town and it wouldn't surprise me.

Is it of interest/or null right now before a flip? Is Golden Robster's explanation suffice for you?

[Keyser Söze]

How do you counterclaim a soft claim?
By definition a soft claim is doing something like "I am a PR!"
You can't counter a claim like that.
A hard claim would be "I am a Gunsmith!"
Someone *could* counter that if they were, for instance, a Gunsmith, or maybe if they were a cop and didn't think both roles could exist.
But you can't counter claim a soft claim - that's why it's soft, and that's also why it's not worth ruling out someone as a lynch target if they do it, it's like saying 'I am town' it is meaningless to actual game issues.

True, you can't counterclaim a soft, but I have seen a protective role being softed once. This led to the real doctor hard-counterclaiming, this led to much town bloodshed.
That is why I feel soft claims are bad play. You only claim at intent to hammer.

My point was, if KainTepes is at the stage of full roleclaiming, we'll either leave him alone with his claim (these things resolves themselves) or we deal with a counter claim.
I null read softing. I have seen scum use it as a defence tactic, and bad town soft when under pressure. We just need to make the right decision at the time. But we should only discuss this further if the majority scum-read/want to lynch KainTepes.

[Keyser Söze]

P.s @Thor665, please can you show me why BBT is 'strong-town'. I do not get his tunnel. I know town must be scum-reading me (as 4 or 5 people have voted for me), so I do not feel like this is OMGUS on my part (possible confirmation bias), but why is he ONLY focused on my slot?

[Keyser Söze]

Does anyone else want to try and sell me BBT is NULL? Or BBT is TOWN? Give me quotes and simple words.

"He makes multiple comments about multiple players and expresses many views that seem open minded and built to generate discussion"

isn't doing it for me.

[Keyser Söze]

Thor665, do you want my roleclaim or my lynch? Because this 'Do you have an opposition to the Keyser wagon?' mentality goes nowhere. You need to convince them that I am scum. You're only talking wagons, and not about scum-alignment behaviour.

All I'm seeing is

"this wagon has the biggest chance of hitting L-1, so join me guys, while the cookies are warm"

. Fucking joke.

Your desperate plea to popsofctown is ridiculous.

Just because a wagon is "currently pretty empty of support" doesn't make it wrong or a futile road to go down. Stop shitting on wagons just because there is one vote. The logic is sickening. Talk through their argument without saying: "your wagon is going nowhere, come onto this one, we've already got 4 votes".


P.EDIT. I dropped your "empty" argument because it was utter bullshit. Non alignment indicative drivel, from a player who is so stubborn and up his own game theory he cant be reasoned with. You are terrible to play with. Learn to listen mate. We can go back to it, but it's a waste of my time and everyone elses. You do not realise we, as players need to talk through arguments to reach an agreement. You just saying *empty empty la la la la la not listening* is just team-killing us. It's fucking anti-town.

Read the thread. People are allowed to disagree with you. Deal with it.

[Keyser Söze]

because my argument was so brilliant

Short answer. NO. Show some humility.

[Keyser Söze]

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
GuyFawkes (-80%) - Meh start and then went downhill ever since he replaced in.
BBT (-95%) - Massive lurking at the beginning then around 400, I don't remember, starts tunneling Keyser. His tunnel seems to have no genuine basis to it, and seems more like scum desparately aiming for a mislynch.

Our inevitable lynch imho ought to be BBT, but I want to do a bit poking first....
VOTE: Massive - Stop staying under the radar, prod-dodging, and contributing zero info. At least in my last game with you, you actually said stuff of substance from time to time.

Hi mate, good to see you again.

A few questions:
Unsure why you're not voting your 76%-100% Confidence Likely Scum-reads. You could still try and sort massive through pressure/questions (without voting his slot).

I.e are BBT/GuyFawkes truly "76%-100% Confidence" scum reads, or is it a miss-label?

Regarding Thor, "suggesting to running people to L-1 and forcing claims" is just plain anti-town. Bad town is equally likely to suggest this as bad scum. It will reap ugly consequences either way so motivation is hard to discern.

[Keyser Söze]

Boonskies-Phoenix Wright coming up.

[Keyser Söze]

i'll allow you to skip the write-up; i'm town af.

True, I was impressed by your

"Meh. Why not?"

vote on me It actually made me laugh out loud.

[Keyser Söze]

Phoenix Wright (47 posts)

Null on his first 11 posts.
It was at this point where I was wondering why Phoenix Wright still had his vote on mn. Phoenix Wright unvotes: (post 113). I could see the cogs moving during this change of read. Nothing scummy there.
Phoenix Wright reads Slandaar's vote wrongly (?) as RVS. No coffee spilt.

@massive What are your reads right now?

I'd flag this as a vague question, not a penetrating question.

I'm starting to not like Keysor's posts. He seemed to be making good points at first, but now he's just flipping a round and looking for any little thing to nitpick. Bluebloodedtoffee hasn't said much yet, and that's worrisome because people who Barry post are generally people taut you can't trust. The same goes for telltaleheart.

Focus has been on myself, BBT and TTH, Phoenix Wright chips in with his own opinion. Will Phoenix Wright follow this up with pressure? Nope, we never do.

Yes, town-Phoenix Wright is allowed to be angry here, I can see how my words may have seemed hypocritical (post 183).

I can see why town-Phoenix Wright could be frustrated with KainTepes' flipflopping (post 209).

I am noticing Phoenix Wright is never the first to engage discussion points.

Until...
Phoenix Wright's post 311 makes me want to relook at the early OceanWind-Golden Robster-Masquerade exchange.

Replaces out...

Read so far:

Meh, I won't be voting/lynching Phoenix Wright on that.

Boonskiies next.

[Keyser Söze]

Boonskiies (23 posts)

Boonskiies shares some town/scum reads. Don't know how he got them though: (post 481).
Calls me "holy Keyscum Soze" - I expect pressure/questions, which I never get.
Boonskiies happy to identify his Golden Robster scum-read as an "association from mn": post 541.

Meh. Why not?

VOTE: Keyser

Another dissatisfying reason/vote on my wagon. I'm still not understanding his strong scum read on me ("holy Keyscum Soze") - but he's not trying to share his scum-read/reasons of me to anyone, why not? He should be proud of it, if his read is strong.

Looks like you've just gotten irritated that you are caught out as scum and really don't have many reasons why.

I would never had described the argument/reason on me as "caught out as scum".

And immediately after, you target GuyFawkes, who was just tied with 2nd biggest wagon a couple of pages back. Easy wagon to manipulate onto.

Boonskiies believes I am opportunistic wagon jumping. Does this mean Boonskiies town-reads GuyFawkes? Noted.

I have a paranoia of TTH, but I don't want to delve into that right now. Nothing she's doing is scummy to me or anything. I actually like her input. I'm just....aaah. I never know how to deal with her.

I don't know what this is saying - but let's keep our eyes on TTH(?)


Talks to KainTepes about the possible opportunistic scum on his wagon:

It's probably Keyser and TTH.

But then a moment later open to lynch KainTepes

with

TTH:

Nah, I'm down to lynch Kain with you if you want.

Nah, that's not right.

Boonskiies slips into the

'not feeling much town vibes'

pile.

[Keyser Söze]

@everyone else

: Even if you already have an opinion of Kain in the thread, I still want to see your thoughts on #642.

- There is nothing redeeming about the reads Kain has made, and I don't see any coherent town thought process behind his switching from one to the next. I think there should be one if he's capable of these observations:

Agreed. Still waiting. There's ample of material to support our reads now (30 pages worth), whether they be town, null or scum reads.

[Keyser Söze]

Also, this is Town BBT....he's just not active. Like holy fuck.

Tell me what 'Town BBT' is in words. This sounds like a meta defence.

[Keyser Söze]

Keysor, I am feeling lazy.

Who is scum?

BBT isn't a bad player so I do not understand his tunnel on me. Vote there.

GuyFawkes seems like he is active lurking. Show me him trying to sort players. Vote there.

If you town-read the vocal players, vote a lurker. Always scum in there watching town thrash out at eachother, then coming in late with an unexplained 'but player X is town!".

KainTepes has shown no concern for self-preservation and softed a PR early. Either challenge him now or never. He has been the hardest player to read so far.

But if you're interested in just forcing a roleclaim join my wagon, and keep Thor happy, because he's the smartest player here.

The choice is yours.


P.s catch up as soon as you can.

[Keyser Söze]

1. If I want your lynch, and not your claim, I am playing badly or am scum.
2. If I want your claim and assuredly don't want your lynch I am playing badly or am scum.
3. If I want your lynch, and want you at L-1 and to claim first - I am playing appropriate town.
I choose...oh...gosh...let me think...I'mma go with #3, was #3 the right answer?
Add in "and here's why I find him an acceptable lynch compared to others" and you 100% are stating my issue with you, yes.
It does if you're sitting with your vote on it while not talking about it with other players or interrogating your suspect.
What am I not listening to about it? You never tried to explain any part of it to me at all. You demanded to know what I meant. i showed you. You stopped talking.
You either presumed I wouldn't listen (and now are whining about it) - or are lying to me now.
Which was it?
You took that grossly out of context and then (faked?) offense at it.
Thor is the unfun player in this game?

Maybe that's why you think I'm so mean? Because you utterly miss my sense of humor?
Read stuff twice? If you already read it twice, go for thrice?
If you're just fake skimming and acting fake offended - then this is obnoxious scum play, but I'll lynch you regardless.

I do not wish to argue over words.

Spoiler: Advice for Thor

Try listening to the actual message of what people are trying to say, instead of twisting everything they post to make your personal opinion sound infallible. Well guess what, you're just as clueless as all of us. You are not the God of Mafia.

popsofctown doesn't want to join in with your force to L-1 for non-alignment indicative reasons crusade. Deal with it.
Slandaar doesn't want to force multiple roleclaims. Deal with it.
I find your conduct and attitude grossly anti-town. Deal with it.
TellTaleHeart thinks you may be a butthole. Deal with it.

I "stopped talking" with you because I soon realised you are not a player who can talk through things with an open mind.

Not

because you had a "brilliant case" or I was in marvel of your most beloved intelligent "sense of humor". Get a grip mate.

"obnoxious scum play"

- what a vile insult. No, it's a townie telling you to look in the mirror. Seriously. You must not lynch me because you need me in this game to keep you level-headed

If you're going to wallpost,

show me scum-alignment indicative evidence and then people/I can discuss

.



P.EDIT

He is assuredly Keyser focused - but if that's a crime feels like you should also be calling me scum, yeah?

Your interactions with me are of a different nature. I.e I am not scum-reading everyone of my wagon. Boonskiies will never explain his reads fully, and lol-hammer if given the chance. Scum would sheep something with a bit more meat. GuyFawkes I do not like. Your motives are twisted as fuck but I see no scum-motivation there in the short or long term. BBT is all about the narrrow focus miss-lynch though.

I also like the immediate defense of Masquerade for the replace out, very unopportunistic for a theory scum.

Thoughts?

Why not scum-defending-scum, or scum-defending-town for no-good-reason? i.e scum calling something non-alignment indicative as town-indicative. I.e a replace out.

How many replace outs have we had? Which ones are town or scum? Fuck knows. Be my guest in calling one a town-replace-out or a scum replace-out.

[Keyser Söze]

Calling people town, and asking people for their reads on various people and even inviting conversations on players outside the tunnel.

active and is asking questions.

Give me a list of players in this game who ARE playing like this.

Give me a list of players in this game who ARE NOT playing like this.

[Keyser Söze]

Thor665, what's your read on GuyFawkes-Masquerade?


@everyone - show me town/null-GuyFawkes-Masquerade.

[Keyser Söze]

I still want to be convinced that this is "super obvious"/"strong town" BBT:

"He's calling people town"
"He's asking multiple people multiple questions"
"meta meta meta"

These aren't doing it for me. Why can't scum-BBT do any of the above? He should be a null-town-lean at best if that's your argument.

Would not vote, would not lynch:

Aquanim
TellTaleHeart

Would need a good argument to vote here:

Thor665-mn
Slandaar
popsofctown

Leaning positive, but still not a firm read:

Titus-Golden Robster
massive

---------------------------------------------------- <<< line of comfort

Need to sort ASAP:

Ircher-OceanWind

Bad through play, not town reading:

KainTepes
Boonskies-Phoenix Wright

Would vote, would lynch:

GuyFawkes-Masquerade
BlueBloodedToffee




With 4 days to go til deadline, does anyone scum-read any from my "Would not vote, would not lynch" / "Would need a good argument to vote here" pile?

[Keyser Söze]

Since I have accused no one in this game of tunneling, my answer would be "everyone is on the ARE NOT list."

This is fair.

Masquerade read to me about how you read to me.
GuyFawkes I'm more neutral of, but if he's scum I'd toss Kaine into obv. town territory, and if he's town then he's just been a bit boring and not very proactive, and so I lack a read.

I feel like he's choosing when to come in and comment... instead of being "proactive".

Aren't you quoting Boon's stance supported by my arguments here?

I combined both the "strong town" and "obvious town" sentiment of both arguments.

I would happily lynch pops at this stage, I would guardedly lynch Slandaar.

Can you give me a summary of "happily lynch pops".

My only minor concern with Slandaar is that he needs to shout more now. I feel like he is waiting for something. I.e Now's the time to reveal your cards.

[Keyser Söze]

1. I didn't call him proactive, so...sure?

I didn't say you did. Stop arguing over fucking words and listen to what I'm trying to say. Again you are seeing what you want to see. I'm saying he is active lurking, not pro-actively scum-hunting.

I feel like the accusation you're kind of making here is strategic lurking - and I'm not sure I disagree with it

Fine. This is what I wanted. Your fucking opinion. Do not give me textbook/game theory bullshit. I want your personal stance.

Except the only time I said that about BBT I misspoke a name, and was corrected and agreed with the correction, so...you combined something I didn't say and then didn't even address me when I asked if that was an error on your part.

Do you or don't you hold these positions:
BBT is strong town.
BBT asks questions
BBT is open minded
BBT encourages conversation

If I am in error, please clarify.

I think your alignment is scum, fyi.

I feel sorry for you Thor665.

How do you summarize a single sentence?

Again. Arguing over the words. You damn well know what I meant. Show me your abbreviated scum-popsofctown case.

"he's sitting on a vanity wagon and acting proud of it, while openly asking for other wagons to support, yet refusing to move."

Thanks.
See, it was pretty simple, eh?
Yes, this is scum-indicative behaviour.

[Keyser Söze]

If I am in error, please clarify.

How about you answer this - why do you think I gave BBT a "strong townread"?

Answer that and I'll answer yours - because I've already clarified your error for you.
Twice.

BBT came across as a

strong townread

this page

He makes multiple comments about multiple players and expresses many views that seem open minded and built to generate discussion. Not only is this the opposite of tunneling (and shows that his focus is healthy, and not blind in any way) it also looks

immensely town

.

This doesn't look like a null or scum read to me.

[Keyser Söze]

@Slandaar

- yes or no to the BBT/Keyser lynch?

Or are you:
-undecided on both slots?
-more favourable elswhere?

[Keyser Söze]

If I were scum, who do you think would be my partners?

I'll answer this fully AFTER you are lynched

Right now I'm looking for individual scum (I used to be guilty for basing my reads on confirmation bias, drawing up scum teams in my head, which affected my play immensely).

I'll present to you why I do not town read you personally and we can talk it through. Or dig up my posts now if you have time.

[Keyser Söze]

@Slandaar - what's your position on the BBT/Keyser slots?

[Keyser Söze]

I wouldn't mind seeing you lynched. I dislike your whole stance around Kain. The infamous waffle post seemed like some kind of VI defence of a buddy but we can ignore that for now. That said, Kain also likes to hop around on you, it's intriguing anyways...

This sounds like heavy-confirmation bias on pre-flip associations but I can see how you would conclude on a KainTepes-Keysor Soze scum-team (due to my dramatic change of read and inability to read his slot with conviction).

I also feel initially when you interjected yourself into my conversation with Phoenix you were trying to twist things on me.

It is my observation that you are a very slow player (in terms of getting out your position). It was not 'twisting', it was me being impatient over yours and Phoenix Wright's interactions. I still need to keep prodding you to get a position/opinion out of you. We need more posts like this one from you where you throw your thoughts onto the page. Everything is in your head, which I do not like.

Try not to discuss other ongoing games mate (only completed games). It's a site rule thing.

This was me not wishing for Phoenix Wright to be mod-killled. I have seen it happen before. This was non-alignment-indicative. This was not me defending Phoenix Wright.

You didn't even have mild suspicion when as you say the chap was doing nothing or;
"you're never the first person to engage anything/anyone. You're the person who's late to every single party."

Seems wrong to me. Seems like you defaulted back to the safe null stance as he hadn't done much.

Yes, I was attacking his playstyle (I called him a scavenger) - I read null on this, that early in the game. Therefore, I believe my "safe null stance" is fair.


Most of your conclusions are heavy pre-flip-associations:

Keysor

-KainTepes

Keysor

-Phoenix Wright

Why aren't you voting the common theme?

That is why this logic fails

<<<<< [keep this comment in mind for later]

[Keyser Söze]

What is your position on BBT?

[Keyser Söze]

Hi KainTepes, while you are online, answer my query:-

Keyser and TELLTALEHEART is because TELLTALE keeps defending Keyser,,

Mafia likely will defend other mafia, because fewer mafia means mafia is more likely to lose,,

Here your position is that TellTaleHeart is scum for defending your scum-read (me). Do you still hold this position?

Do you think any other players-defending-players is scum-indicative? (or was it purely based on the association with my slot?)

I.e we have seen Ircher, popsofctown, Aquanim all oppose my lynch (defend) - are they scum too?
We have seen Thor665, popsofctown and Boonskiies oppose BlueBloodedToffee's lynch too - do you believe scum lay in those defensive-interactions?

I want to gauge the strength and understanding of your

"Mafia likely will defend other mafia, because fewer mafia means mafia is more likely to lose"

belief.

[Keyser Söze]

The point was how you both accuse each other of things and the conversation ends so meakly.

I was attacking Phoenix Wright's playstyle. If I thought it was scum-alignment indicative I would have followed it up with pressure/vote.

I don't like how you emphasise it using bold

When I use capitals, underlining or bold it does not mean I am highlighting scum-alignment indicative points.

I think you were making a decent point here. Perhaps the best point you have made all game.

No one else thought so. Everyone read it as null alignment indicative like me. Players 'scavenge' on the littlest of scraps during early D1 play. It's pretty null.

However, I would scum-read opportunistic sheeping behaviour when more meat is on the table

. I.e over 30 pages in. I hope this illustation helps you understand my position.

Phoenix is clearly being accusatory towards you. You respond in what reads as an accusatory tone and nothing happens. You both go on your merry way.

Again, this sounds like you're scum-reading on heavy pre-flip associations.

Why are you not voting me if you believe this?

Did you see this in Phoenix? Boon?

Again - I was performing an ISO analysis on the Masquerade slot. This is NOT me ignoring Boonskiies/Phoenix Wright. They are different players, and do not share the same posting behaviour/playstyle. I have already posted my ISO re-read of the Boonskiies slot (post 727, post 728). Again, let me repeat, what I see in Masquerade I see in Masquerade. What I see in Boonskiies I see in Boonskiies. I do not see Masquerade in Boonskiies, and vice versa.

Kain is repeating an argument made against you Keyser. The type of argument being made by Kain here is so different to his normal arguments. To me it feels like he is parroting it. It especially goes against his 'scum are quiet' argument.

As I and other people have stated, KainTepes makes a habit of making unsupported/unexplained reads/opinions. This behaviour is very frustrating. However, if you are portraying it as a KeysorSoze-KainTepes scum team I sadly cannot see it. Again, heavy dependance on pre-flip associations. I.e KainTepes "parroting" a read does not make his target scum. This is short-sighted reasoning. I would only engage this line of thought, if KainTepes flips red, then I will discuss it further and I will analyse associations.

[Keyser Söze]

BBT didn't post on that page.
This is a reference to the above read - so runs into the same problem.
Why didn't you notice where my error was pointed out - I agreed it was an error and corrected it, and the two times I specifically asked you if you had noticed my error correction?

Well please move on from your bloody errors and corrections and state your fucking

current read of BBT and said reasons

. I don't want to waste time cleaning up your shit and wiping your ass thank you.

A) Do you have a 'strong'/moderate/weak town read of BBT?
B) Tell me why you have that read of BBT.

I believe Boonskiies' strong town-read of BBT is based on town-meta.
popsofctown's town-read of BBT is based on BBT possessing a mix of "protown posts and scummy posts"
Your reasons are hidden amidst cloud of game-theory vomit and errors. I want clarity. Simple English will do.

Show me "obvious"/strong" town-BBT and I will unvote.

It's as simple as that. I don't want to argue over fucking words.

[Keyser Söze]

You should hop on Keyser now, 3 days left y'know...

^
This.

Phoenix is clearly being accusatory towards you. You respond in what reads as an accusatory tone and nothing happens. You both go on your merry way.

Again, this sounds like you're scum-reading on heavy pre-flip associations.

Why are you not voting me if you believe this?

Slandaar, if you're going to commit to your scum-team theory/pre-flip associations, you have to vote the player glueing it all together.

Or..

you can scum-read players on an individual basis.

[Keyser Söze]

It seems like keyser is the only one enjoying this game. I kinda wonder if I should pick him for scum just based on the one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-other angle

You have now made the two best posts of this game so far

I'll dig out the other one in a sec...

[Keyser Söze]

@mod replacing out, I need to wash my hair and my dog ate my homework.

This

[Keyser Söze]

Strange you didn't view it that way.

Not strange, I saw my name and KainTepes' name in the same sentence and I am damn sure you weren't presenting a pre-flip association town tell argument. I.e you were scum reading me via my associations/interactions with KainTepes/Boonskiies/Phoenix. Correct?

[Keyser Söze]

Look at my extensive ISO on KainTepes.

If it isn't on there we can add it now.

"Unsupported/unexplained scum read #35"

[Keyser Söze]

Too many vanity wagons.

Icky. Will catch up on this when I get home tonight.

Look forward to it - I honestly think only you will be able to talk me off your wagon.

@Slandaar

@Slandaar

- yes or no to the

BBT

/Keyser lynch?

@Slandaar - what's your position on the

BBT

/Keyser slots?

What is your position on BBT?

One last try - your thoughts on BBT, please.


Moreover, your thoughts on these observations:

Spoiler: Any scum-alignment indicative points in here, or more empty waffle from me?

Boonskiies shares some town/scum reads. Don't know how he got them though: (post 481).

Calls me "holy Keyscum Soze" - I expect pressure/questions, which I never get.

Meh. Why not?

VOTE: Keyser

Another dissatisfying reason/vote on my wagon. I'm still not understanding his strong scum read on me ("holy Keyscum Soze") - but he's not trying to share his scum-read/reasons of me to anyone, why not? He should be proud of it, if his read is strong.

Looks like you've just gotten irritated that you are caught out as scum and really don't have many reasons why.

I would never had described the argument/reason on me as "caught out as scum".

And immediately after, you target GuyFawkes, who was just tied with 2nd biggest wagon a couple of pages back. Easy wagon to manipulate onto.

Boonskiies believes I am opportunistic wagon jumping. Does this mean Boonskiies town-reads GuyFawkes? Noted.

I have a paranoia of TTH, but I don't want to delve into that right now. Nothing she's doing is scummy to me or anything. I actually like her input. I'm just....aaah. I never know how to deal with her.

I don't know what this is saying - but let's keep our eyes on TTH(?)

Talks to KainTepes about the possible opportunistic scum on his wagon:

It's probably Keyser and TTH.

But then a moment later open to lynch KainTepes

with

TTH:

Nah, I'm down to lynch Kain with you if you want.

Nah, that's not right.

Boonskiies slips into the

'not feeling much town vibes'

pile.

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser, I don't plan on talking you out of anything.

I can't convince scum I'm town. You already know that.

You need to convince us you're town and not scum. That's the game, otherwise our votes will stay on you. There are 3 votes on you. Tell us where those 3 votes should be instead. Just make sure you do this "talking" before the weekend.

[Keyser Söze]

I'll just give my thoughts on the game

Deal

you aren't reading the game

I am reading. What you perceive as me not reading is me disagreeing with you.

I don't need you to clean up my play

Deal. Because I've got blisters and a sore back shoveling it all, and now I want to concentrate on my null/scum-reads.

Currently I'm understanding you're scum.

That is what I keep reading, but I do not see any scum-alignment indicative reasons to support that understanding. Nor do I expect to see any. Only KainTepes (post 465) and your predecessor, mn (post 187) has presented a logical argument.

I don't care if you want to vote BBT

If someone is scum-reading my town-read, I tell them why I am town-reading them. If someone is town-reading my scum-read, I tell them why I am scum-reading them. I.e you

should care

about where everybody puts their vote and unvote. I don't know what your game theory book says, but we lynch on the majority of votes. Every vote matters.

A "vanity wagon" is when people aren't sheeping me.

...and popsofctown scores a Hat-trick!

[Keyser Söze]

I wouldn't mind seeing you lynched.

I haven't been super closely following everything this game, but man. Expressing that thought with that exact word choice seems scummy in like every context.

I read it as

brutal town-honesty

. Not blatent scum-opportunism.

I see he scum-reads Boonskiies and KainTepes, but he keeps seeing my name popping around their ISO's, so I read this as healthy town-paranoia. I admittedly don't like him watching my wagon on the sidelines, chipping in with his support for it, but that's pure OMGUS on my part.

Thus, I think Slandaar thinks my flip will give some resolution or extra conviction with his Boonskiies/KainTepes scum-reads. It's short-sighted, but it's Day One. He won't realise it's short-sighted until I flip green.

Thoughts?

[Keyser Söze]

negotiating with scum to unvote a slot

Here's your problem summed up in 3 words:

"negotiating with scum"

. You are a victim of confirmation bias. You need to realise that you could be wrong, and accpet the fact you need to talk/negotiate with both your town, null and scum reads. The self-conceit that runs through your veins and permeates your posts has been a delight to witness! Master Yoda wants to add one more thing... "negotiate with all players, try you must. Anti-town play leads to anger. Anger leads to bad town play. Bad town play leads to suffering.” Wise words.

trying to pick a fight about something I never indicated I cared about

I felt your defence/town-read of BBT was something you cared about. I cared about it especially because I scum-read BBT, and want you to explain in detail your thoughts. I could be totally wrong about BBT, so I'm open for others to discuss why I am wrong. But talking to you, I feel like I am up against a wall.

[Keyser Söze]

What's the case on Ircher? I'm trying not to do pre-flip associations, but I'm putting all my thoughts together for tomorrow for both sides, depending if Keyser's flips scum or town. I'm leaning more towards the scum, but it's day 1. Large room for error. I despise day 1's, not my strongest day. I really have no clue what to try and analyze until after.

I think this post by massive made me 'moderately' paranoid regarding Ircher:

Ircher (his replacement) isn't catching up, except enough for a

STRONG townread

on Keyser,

is voting a null read

, but still wants

to make sure his ducks are in a row for when Keyser is ultimately lynched

.

VOTE: Ircher

In regard to "pre-flip associations" via my slot, yes, you'd need to lynch me before lynching Ircher IMO. But I do not support D1 pre-flip associations-lynches funnily enough

I will look at his posts later tonight.

[Keyser Söze]

I don't think it's a dishonest statement. It's a statement that is true that does not originate from a townie most of the time. It's very rare when I draw town that there is any lynch, ever, that I "don't mind". I either crave or hate most lynches.

I guess that's empirical and personality wise someone might be different. If you don't play with conviction you'll have a scummy meta though.

Hmm... I'd personally put info-lynches in the "I don't mind" category, but I agree that I personally work on the ''comfortable/uncomfortable" scale too.

Do you think it was a stupid comment to make (either alignment)?

Mm...I believe Ircher's just generally inactive right now. He's a newer player who's just taking a stance.

I agree with the sentiment of most of his oberservations, except for the 'scum-reading-BBT-for-posting "prodge"' - that was a bit reachy and funny. But I'll take a closer look later. In my last game together with him, his observations were very accurate and impressive, but the more experienced players ignored him.

[Keyser Söze]

@everyone

- what hour/day do you suggest a roleclaim? (Incase, there is a continuation of the regurgitation of the same arguments before the deadline, leading to no L-1. We see ourselves talking to the same faces, while the lurking players hide in the shadows, awaiting to re-enact The Assassination of Julius Caesar, Act V, Scene III, 10 minutes before the deadline).

I see both heavy support, sidelining and strong opposition for my lynch, so that is what I would call a

prime-info lynch

.
There is BBT wagon's, some call a "counter wagon" to mine, based on his tunnel of me, but I am still all ears.

^^^
The most content is regarding these two wagons.


There is also the Ircher/Titus wagons festering under these two main wagons, but these are more whispers than a collective chorus of "LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH".

Boonskies and Aquanim are your outside bet wagons (1 vote each). I wish more pressure had been on GuyFawkes, but he's choosing to lay low.

KainTepes has vanished off the face off the earth. There are remarkably no longer any votes on I AM KAIN TEPES!!!!! I SOFT CLAIM, YOU BOW!!!

[Keyser Söze]

I am of the honest opinion, that Thor665 will only learn how bad he has been playing if I am lynched.

He can then take a step back and change his attitude, mentality, and re-think his reads, anti-town plans and self-conceit.



I town-read Thor665, and you need a logical Thor665 to contribute. Right now, he is blinded with confirmation bias and the suffocation of his own game theory that he holds so tenderly close to his heart, so much that it stops him from being a humble pro-town player. I do not think he will change his ways until I flip green.

[Keyser Söze]

This is my big reason why I feel Keyser should definitely be the lynch toDay. Actual scum reading, although I agree with BBT on the looking more town recenty, unfortunately because we have 3 days left, but if we get a town flip we get a lot of information, even for a Day 1 lynch. I believe information is the most important part of a Day 1 lynch, which is why I will basically end any Day 1 if I get the chance, unless I'm positive they are town.

You sir need to be sorted ASAP.

[Keyser Söze]

He's posting only theory and gross proof of not reading anything.

You are still not listening, Thor665. I really feel sorry for you mate.

[Keyser Söze]

Titus. Thoughts. We're 3 days away from deadline, but it could be crunch time within 48 hours.

GuyFawkes, the mod has written over 160% more posts than you. Time to start contributing. I think I town-read SirCakez more than you.

I felt TellTaleHeart was a strong town-voice from earlier, need your suggestions, as I am running out of ink.

KainTepes, if I made you 3-shot day vig, which 3 people would you shoot right now?

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah, I'm certain your lynch will be the wakeup call of my lifetime, it will be super wonderful.

I hope someday, after many years here on mafiascum, I can be a player as good as you are. Humble, pro-town, wise, impartial, demonstrating no confirmation bias, presenting no non-alignment-indicative arguments, forcing no players to roleclaim for entertainment, and valuing our new players' thoughts who join our site. It has been a pleasure to play with you Thor665. Perhaps we can reminiscence one day, and go through your stunning performance in this game.



You are my hero.

[Keyser Söze]

Don't want to lynch BlueBloodedToffee anymore.

UNVOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Keyser Söze]

LOL, what?

Why not?

I like your new reads, and judging by your comments I think deep down you know I'm town (perhaps shit town who is indecisive early game, but is now switched on). I now want to discuss players with you for the next 24-48 hours. If you still want me lynched, so be it (I've already described my lynch as the

prime-info lynch

), moreover, Thor needs his head checked and reads re-evaluated. His attitude is twisted as fuck, but I forgive him. He's a victim of confirmation bias. We've all been there. I think only town-you will be able to get through to him.

[Keyser Söze]

OK Keyser let's talk about Boon and Guy.

Leave some thoughts for me to read tomorrow.

I'll do this tomorrow morning.

[Keyser Söze]

Actually I'll do GuyFawkes before I go to bed.

He's only made 19 posts, but within those 19 posts he's been happy to give firm town reads, firm scum reads, and his opinion on who to lynch. This reads to me like someone who knows who is town, and happy to jump on the best wagon. Usually you can see a townie putting together reads and conclusions through interactions and discussion with other players. Not here. It sounds like he already knows his conclusions and answers, and is arguing off that. Townies should fumble through a game, challenging their reads. Re-analysing, re-evaluating and questioning. GuyFawkes has been quiet, outside the nitty-gritty of scum-hunting, but somehow shows too much confidence on a read/lynch for a player who hasn't even shown the work of getting to those conclusions.

This is why GuyFawkes still sits in my uncomfortable pile. Let me show you some examples of my concern:

Spoiler: Warning: wall

KainTepes is like performance art and I think its fantastic. he could be scum but I see no need to worry about him yet. I think it's more likely scum is pushing his lynch

He is in no position to say scum is pushing KainTepes lynch - especially when he thinks KainTepes "could be scum". I feel like GuyFawkes knows KainTepes is town, hence he can say his play has been "performance art". There was no reason to say, "could be scum", I feel like it was added in there.

We are going to just waste the day away if all anybody does is argue about kain tapes

This contradicts his "could be scum"/"scum is pushing his lynch" comment from earlier. KainTepes' play is encouraging activity.

Do you think Kain is legit or is it some sort of gimmick alt?

I'm not convinced he's town but I'm not convinced he's scum either. I AM convinced that he's not a VI and there's gotta be some method to his madness. So I'd rather look elsewhere for somebody to lynch

GuyFawkes continues to defend KainTepes. Why doesn't GuyFawkes engage with KainTepes to follow through with his "could be scum"/"scum is pushing his lynch" concern - I don't feel he actually believes either comment.

this

VOTE: keyser soze

GuyFawkes votes for me here - I do not think he chooses to actively engage me directly at all to discern my alignment. All subsequent interactions are closed/non-discussion. I find this behaviour very peculiar. A townie naturally pushes their scum-read. They do not watch the wagon.

Keyser, do you remember coming up with an "orgy of evidence" against Kain Tepes? or calling him the easiest lynch you've ever seen? and stating that he will be today's lynch?

'cause if that's how you talk about your null reads I can't wait to see what you say about scum

This is not a 'get information from Keyser' post. It is a 'keep the focus on Keyser' post.

I said scum were pushing your lynch and I think keyser is that scum

This doesn't sound like

"I'm not convinced he's town but I'm not convinced he's scum either"

- this sounds like GuyFawkes is town-reading KainTepes.

meh, I don't think your case on BBT is worth sheeping

can you summarize your oh so compelling case for me?

Why - is BBT town? Show me GuyFawkes trying to figure out BBT's alignment. GuyFawkes holds many reads/positions he has shown no evidence of him reaching.

If I were scum, who do you think would be my partners?

Again, this is not a 'get information from Keyser' post. It is a 'keep the focus on Keyser' post. Is this GuyFawkes trying to ascertain my alignment through this question? He obviously never follows up with the question and watches my wagon from afar, conscious to keep people's focus on it:

I could see a keyser/ircher scum team. I'm fine with lynching either one

The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.

I.e

It is time to take off that mask GuyFawkes.

VOTE: GuyFawkes

[Keyser Söze]

you guys haven't lynched keyser yet?

If you haven't caught up yet, we are lynching scum today. I see it clearly now, scum wanted an unopposed BBT vs Keysor fight/miss-lynch going into deadline. Activity was low. But then BBT and I announce that we are open to other lynches. Everyone suddenly comes alive. People have started freaking out: "Wait what, we're not lynching Keysor who is prob/obv-town?!?". Still they ignore the reads of others who have a town read of me. That is exactly what has happened.

You don't get to say "you guys haven't lynched X yet" if you haven't provided one scum alignment indicative argument to back it up. Your ISO is weak, so you're likely be dealt with today or tomorrow anyway. You haven't shown any sign of finding/sorting town/scum throughout the whole game. I would love to see a reads-list from you.

[Keyser Söze]

That GuyFawkes push....

Discuss my points, don't do what you just did if you're town. It looks very bad.

What's your read of GuyFawkes?

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - D1 #4

1. I don't think we're convinced on the KS is town idea (ie, those on the wagons), so I'm gonna try to guage some of Keyser's posts to see if they are truly "empty" as the scum-Keyser case claims.

2. Let's start with 809: Keyser is asking KT how he views the other players defending Keyser in terms of his belief that scum will WK scum as losing scum makes scum more likely to lose. -

Tell me what is empty about this post -- Keyser is asking KT a question that basically amounts to a meta question. What I think KS is aiming for here is an answer that will help Keyser better guage Kain's experience, beliefs, and playstyle. The first step to determining if a player is scum is imo learning how they play.

3. Thor suggests in 811 for us to hop onto the Keyser wagon despite having 3 days left. -

Confirmation bias? Definitely. Scum? Probably not. Bad Town? High chance. @Thor -- Stop with your petty little arguments/tunnel on Keyser and start giving your thoughts on other players; in fact, I have no idea where you stand on people such as myself, Boon, pops, and GuyFawkes cuz you're so focused on Keyser.

4. 815 - Keyser once again askes Thor for his stance on BBT. -

Again, this isn't empty posting. Keyser is directly reasking a question Thor has decided to ignore in his *self-righteousness* - Keyser goal in asking this question is trying to guage Thor's reads on everyone besides Keyser. Knowing other people's reads and thoughts is a truly tremendous help in deciphering the puzzle; aka, Keyser is asking for utmost important info.

5. Pops says in 821 that only Keyser seems to be enjoying the game. -

While almost certainly a joke like your replace out joke, it feels a bit... weird to say. Also, who's to say the rest of us aren't having fun?

6. 822 and 823 have no impact on the game, so certainly they must be empty posts! -

Nah, wouldn't call that empty posting but more like having fun.

7. 833 - BBT states "can't convince scum I'm town" -

This employs two logical fallancies: ORLYScum and Confirmation Bias. First, let's discuss confirmation bias -- it's when you express a strong read on a person generally without unbiased facts to back it up. You also conduct your tunnel at the ignorance of everything else. Then, let's discuss ORLYScum which is when you disregard what a oerson simply because they're scum. This is a logical fallancy, as you are using your subjective view to try to discredit your target's thoughts regadless of the validity of any claims. Neither of these are neccessary alignment-indicative by themselves though.

10. Let's take 840 as another example. -

So this is a quote response, so my numbers correspond with the quotes in order:

1. BBT states he'll just give his thoughts. - Keyser responds "Deal" as in he's ok ith that. Unlike... let's see...

Thor

, Keyser understands that sometimes you must compromise. Anyway, I think this is what Keyser and all of us on BBT's wagon wanted in the first place -- For BBT to express his thoughts this game aside from his fairly poorly supported Keyser scumread.

2. Thor has suggested Keyser isn't reading, and Keyser responds by stating he is, and the perceived not reading is simply disagreeing -- Not empty posting, this is Keyser offering another outlook on the situation to Thor (who cannot seem to understand that Mafia is a.... TEAM GAME....). This is def. what I thought when Thor made that comment.

3. No comment

4. Keyser points out that Thor keeps saying he scumreads Keyser, yet has yet to provide a logical reason why. I'll let you be the judge on this one, but my opinion is it's a completely fair argument.

5. Keyser explains his perspective on issues and why he thinks people should express their reads. - Again, Keyser is actively trying to get input from the rest of you, so he can discern people's stances better. Keyser is also admitting that he COULD BE WRONG (*stares at Thor*) and that's why he wants to hear other people's opinions. That's town-motivated imo.

6. Another fun/joke comment. Aka, non alignment indicative.

11. Boon apparently is leaning towards scum-Ircher in 844 -

I am interested in hearing what the case against me is,

excluding any and all pre-flip associations with Keyser

12. Boon says I sheeped everywhere in Mini 1755 in 849 -

Not true! I spent a good amount of time D5 making my opinions as well as D1 and the start of D2. Doing note posts and IO reads are not sheeping. But, if you are gonna meta-dive me, check my wiki page.

13. 852 - Main argument from Thor's POV regarding my lynch is *pre-flip association with Keyser* -

My two-cents -- For one who is normally found as an easy ML by scum, I'm not feeling it this game. I just don't get why people are even toying with the possibility of scum Ircher when there is only pre-flip association case to look at.

14. 853 by Thor states Keyser isn't reading and is merely posting about game theory. -

That's one heck of a tunnel you got going there. Just like Boonskiies tunnel of me in Mini 1755. Guess what -- we were both town. Stop with your stupid Keyser tunnel!

15. In 854, Keyser is giving his opinion on our lynch possibilities & is asking when a roleclaim should occur. -

Again, I see town-Keyser trying to work things out with town & trying to get stuff done AS A TEAM. I don't see scum Keyser making an empty post about wagons.

Yup, Ircher's town-read of me is spot on. He has basically just unpicked my fucking head. I'd like to see him alive. I now want him to show the same clarity and effort with a scum-read (which is a harder case to put together for both town and scum).

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: TTH

Because iydugxutsyffxichuhxugxyc

Will hammer whatever lynch the group decides. It'll hit town. That's the shitty site meta though.

Bad vote.
Bad timing.
Where's the catchup Titus? We've been very patient so far.

Show me why you voted TTH. An RVS vote this late sends shivers down my spine.

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Reads V1.0

Would not vote, would not lynch:

Aquanim
TellTaleHeart

Would need a good argument to vote here:

Thor665-mn
Slandaar
popsofctown

Leaning positive, but still not a firm read:

Titus-Golden Robster
massive

------------------------------------------<<< line of comfort

Need to sort ASAP:

Ircher-OceanWind

Bad through play, not town reading:

KainTepes
Boonskies-Phoenix Wright

Would vote, would lynch:

GuyFawkes-Masquerade
BlueBloodedToffee

------------------------------------------------<<< line of comfort

Need to sort ASAP, growingly unconvinced:

massive
KainTepes
Titus-Golden Robster

Bad through play, not town reading:

Boonskies-Phoenix Wright

Would vote, would lynch:

GuyFawkes-Masquerade

[Keyser Söze]

I have a paranoia of TTH, but I don't want to delve into that right now.

Nothing she's doing is scummy to me or anything. I actually like her input

. I'm just....aaah. I never know how to deal with her.

THERE IS PROBABLY 2 SCUM WITHIN THIS GROUP:

KEYser, Aquanim, OCEANWIND and TELL TALE HEART....

It's probably Keyser and TTH

.

Please can you explain how you can hold both positions within 2 posts of eachother. I could understand a change of read, but the 2 comments contradict eachother.

[Keyser Söze]

Look at my extensive ISO on KainTepes.

If it isn't on there we can add it now.

"Unsupported/unexplained scum read #35"

I find your scumhunting lacklustre. I make an insanely strong point and you don't seem to realize.

You may think Kain's reasoning isn't good but most of his arguments (all -1) are his. Thus this argument stands out.

Why aren't you voting KainTepes then, Slandaar?

My "lacklustre" scumhunting tells me not to vote KainTepes. Your "insanely strong point"/'stand out argument' has led you to what action/conclusion?

Your "insanely strong point"/'stand out argument' has moved you to...

what

may I ask?

Time to reveal your cards.

Enough fence-sitting mate, present your 3 "strong" scum cases now. We are fast approaching deadline, might I add.

[Keyser Söze]

Well,

I have evaluated things

.

I am thinking

about your post Keyser, at work, will be back later. I am not impressed with it though.

I will think

on you a bit more.

I have the cases in my head

on the three of you (Boon). Maybe I shall post one later.

I will leave it at that for now.

(no time to respond to the rest)

Am off for a bit.

Votecount 1.12

(expired on 2016-03-13 08:31:00) remain until day end

[

Slandaar Index

|

Town lean

| Demonstrates a reliance on pre-flip associations. Hard to draw his scum-cases and player-positions out of him. Tends to keep his cards close to his chest. This guarded approach reads like

uncertainty

to me, a natural-townie quality. He persists with his own scum-hunting tempo, never rushing out reads even when under pressure to do so. Admittedly, frustratingly slow, low-activity scum-hunter. I do not wish to lynch Slandaar today.]

1
2
3
4
5

6

7

[Keyser Söze]

WHY ARE PEOPLE VOTING GUYFAWKES..............??

[Keyser Söze]

WHY ARE PEOPLE VOTING GUYFAWKES..............??

WHY SHOULD PEOPLE NOT VOTE GUYFAWKES.........?? IS GUYFAWKES TOWN?

[Keyser Söze]

WHY ARE YOU VOTING AQUINIM..............?? MY HEAD HURTS. TOO MUCH ICE CREAM. BRAIN FREEZE. OUCCCCH

[Keyser Söze]

WHY ARE PEOPLE VOTING GUYFAWKES..............??

GUYFAWKES STOLE MY ICECREAM. I WANT MY MUMMY HE IS MEAN PERSON.


CONVincEDDD NOW?

IF YOU HAVE BRAIN FREEZE YOU SHOULD DRINK HOT WATER,, IT WILLMAEK YOU FEEL BATTER,,

FANX FOR THIS ADVICE. I ALREADY FEEL BETTRE.

[Keyser Söze]

KAINTEPES!!!! DOES AQUANIM LLOOK MORE SCUMMY THAN EVERYONE ELSE TO YOU........???

[Keyser Söze]

This is dumb meta.

@Thor665, I suggest a clean-slate before N1 draws on us.

Who is scum? Who is town? Be as honest and direct as possible.

I want your end-of-play conclusions.

I don't mind in whatever format they come, but I want names.

Thanks.

AQUANIM AND TELLTALEHEART BOTH LOOK SCUMMY TO ME but nobody will listen,,

I'll have another look but they looked clean the last time I read through. In the meantime, show me clearly why you scum-read them as best as you can.

[Keyser Söze]

(Intentionally ignoring Keyser's request)

This is how your recent interactions make me feel:

Spoiler: For Thor

I keep seeing you arguing over words and semantics with nearly every god damn player but no reads are coming out from your slot. You can talk the talk, but when the game get's serious, you haven't got the balls to commit. All this blah blah blah bullshit you do, has not helped you develop one strong/sincere scum read.

You have an anti-town habit of playing against players, instead of playing the game.

I 99.9999999% expected you to not share your town/scum reads... a simple request that everyone else has shared except for you. I held on to that 0.00000001% hope, but I am too much of an optimistic fucker.

You get your fucking game theory book out in every post. This time you are trying to 'school' Slandaar on meta. Your attempts are laughable. Try listening to what he is trying to say, instead of arguing over meta-mechanics, and why your are right and he is wrong. You don't actually contribute anything. The whole purpose of posting is try and lynch scum. I do not know why you post. Do you actually believe the shit you write?

"Slightly sexier actually, because it also makes you a valid PL."

- what does this shit mean?

Ae you calling for a valid PL on D1? If not, why write that shit? The best case of a lynch you have is an info lynch on town Fucking pathetic.

[Keyser Söze]

because you're scum

Remember what Yoda said about confirmation bias (post 843).

Enough posturing. Post your town/scum reads

[Keyser Söze]

Thor, 1+1+1=3

Stop making errors please, it's distracting. Please post your reads x

[Keyser Söze]

So, aquanim FIRST:

She posts a lot but mainly her posts take an OPPORTUNISTIC STANCE,, her vote on me being first of all, she takes the easiest wagon first but then happily switches to me without a SECOND THOUGHT just because my wagon got bigger, it looks just like scum who doesnt really care which town they are lynching as long as they can get a MISLYNCH.........

I see:
- pro-town balanced thinking
- I can see the thought-process behind his votes
- he has made no surprising jumps or conclusions
- I cannot see an "opportunistic stance" in his posts
- he is actively looking for answers
- he is asking players to share/explain their views

He is one of my strongest town reads.

Basically, if he's scum he'll be impossible to lynch today.

[Keyser Söze]

You did drop that Slandaar bit like a wet blanket though - good job not going full rabbit hole.

I didn't drop it, you did. All that to-and-fro with Slandaar meant absolutely fuck all. Are you town reading him, or are you scum reading him? What did you conclude? Nothing.

You can't count.
You can't read.
You don't listen.
You don't share your reads.

One plus one plus one equals fucking three. FFS. Had enough of your fucking errors. How difficult is it? Now have your fucking ice cream.

Mod. I demand you post the VC. I do not trust Thor's ability to count.


P.EDIT - Thank you.

[Keyser Söze]

I have never brought scum-alignment indicative accusations against Thor, so I refute your "miss-repping" bullshit.

I town read Thor. He can't add, but I wouldn't fucking lynch him for it.

None of my town reads are getting lynched today.


Anyway, how can you say it is scum driven? It will implicate everyone supporting it/opposing it/or sitting on the sidelines.

[Keyser Söze]

How old are you?

You creepy fuck. Can we please leave race/age/gender out of discussion. Let's just play the game. Share your reads please.

[Keyser Söze]

Boonskiies, you are are either scum or a victim of confirmation bias. Which one is it?

Stop with the "Player X is obvious/confirmed town". Either support your reads or shut up. What you are doing is very bad. If you're basing your reads on meta and gut, then you're the one being manipulated.

Your irrational hard-defence of players is unsettling.

[Keyser Söze]

If you were town-defending me with no supporting arguments like you are with BBT and Guy I would be freaking the fuck out.

[Keyser Söze]

Moreover, stop talking about Guy's low activity. It doesn't make him town. Activity is null-alignment indicative. Look at his posts/content and tell me he's been trying to find out who is town and who is scum.

I do not understand how you can hard-town read him.

[Keyser Söze]

@Slandaar - I share Thor's frustration with your slot. You never presented the three cases "in your head".

We had a deal. Your "I gave you all the time to convince me" line is a very poor cop-out. FYI: I don't come online to convince others I'm town. I'm here to hunt scum.

[Keyser Söze]

If GuyFawkes roleclaims Town Mason, I'm up for my lynch. I'm a VT. I will consider this a personal defeat but I will say good luck to town.

I've had enough with the pre-flip associations arguments and fighting against confirmation bias. A few of you need to take a step back sometimes. Listen to your scum reads, they're not confirmed scum. Everyone's reads and opinions are valuable. I also want to apologise to Thor. I definitely took things too far. I hope we play again in the future, I just had a bad week and let my in-game frustrations let me post a tirade of anti-town abuse. There was some constructive thinking in there somewhere though

[Keyser Söze]

Vote Ircher because he was the only player with a strong town-read of me?

You need my town-flip first. Especially with so many players scum reading me.

[Keyser Söze]

How many hours to deadline?

Need a VC.

Has GuyFawkes been online? I need to see the soft/hard claim.

[Keyser Söze]

UNVOTE: GuyFawkes


I do not think scum make a play of roleclaiming Town Masons with eachother in this set-up.

[Keyser Söze]

Beat you SirCakes, sorry

[Keyser Söze]

That's two great wagons to rip apart on D2.

[Keyser Söze]

Let me read first

[Keyser Söze]

Has GuyFawkes roleclaimed yet?

[Keyser Söze]

Can someone please highlight the fake hardclaim then?

FYI:
I would not support an Ircher lynch because it is based on poor reasoning (Keysor=scum, pre-flip associations and confirmation bias).

Lynching Ircher because he knows/thinks I'm town... is not a D1 lynch.

[Keyser Söze]

^^
That is simply ridiculous. You are either a mason or not.

@Guy. Claim now.

VOTE: GuyFawkes



Reading last 5-8 pages.

[Keyser Söze]

Guy is most assuredly not a mason.

You are likely wrong there.

Show his hard claim now before the deadline.

[Keyser Söze]

@Keyser

- Bus your buddy. I'll lay off of you tomorrow some if you do.

Confirmation bias/pre flip association presumptions on an Ircher-Keysor scum team. It is impossible to reason with players like this. If you could show me why Ircher is scum outside of your belief that I am scum you may have a case I would engage. Your whole case depends on Keysor=scum.

[Keyser Söze]

Why would GuyFawkes not roleclaim and drag us nearer to the deadline with WIFOM?

Survival?

I was gone for 8-9 hours. Not even a softclaim confirmation.

I.e if I suddenly turned around and said.. "I may not be a VT guys..."
Then I would give you permission to lynch the shit out of me.

[Keyser Söze]

Titus and Guy effectively claimed masons

Titus, what makes you think I'm a mason?

I don't call that a mason hard-claim. Looks/smells like BS to me.

Everyone sheeps me tomorrow.

You haven't offered one thing to "sheep" all game so far. I look forward to your sermon, you might as well start it now.

[Keyser Söze]

I'm fudgie the whale, town mason with cookie puss

Yup, looked like BS, smelt like BS.

BS gets you killed on mafiascum.

[Keyser Söze]

Everyone sheeps me tomorrow.

What is so amusing?

Well,

I have evaluated things

.

I am thinking

about your post Keyser, at work, will be back later. I am not impressed with it though.

I will think

on you a bit more.

I have the cases in my head

on the three of you (Boon). Maybe I shall post one later.

I will leave it at that for now.

(no time to respond to the rest)

Am off for a bit.

Votecount 1.12

(expired on 2016-03-13 08:31:00) remain until day end

Sheep what exactly? Your plea for everyone to sheep you is hilarious. At least give us a reason to sheep first

[Keyser Söze]

Why not sheep you today?

If you die tonight, all your thoughts and reads that you didn't post die with you. You are in no position to say you will be alive tomorrow to lead us.

[Keyser Söze]

Then I feel pretty confident (-97%) this is a scum lynch.

And I'm 97% sure you aren't reading the thread

I am 97% sure you could have avoided your lynch. All you needed to do was say you weren't "fudgie the whale" more than 12 hours ago. Enjoy Zootopia with GalFawkes.

[Keyser Söze]

Alright. I'm a Town Watcher. I watched Slandaar last night. Got two names. Claim your actions. I'll let you guys at it.

I escape another lynch Good investigation Boonskiies, this makes Day Two simple.

[Keyser Söze]

Why not sheep you today?

If you die tonight, all your thoughts and reads that you didn't post die with you. You are in no position to say you will be alive tomorrow to lead us.

Food for thought, this quote is.

You could say I scored a

hole-in-one

with that prediction


Slandaar can still post his thoughts and reads in the Dead Thread though as promised.

[Keyser Söze]

It's not a framing attempt. Scum do not kill to frame. Scum kill to eliminate town PR's. In this case, scum obviously did not read Day One

[Keyser Söze]

Are you X-Shot or unlimited watcher?

I think a massclaim may actually work today

Let's massclaim

FYI: NEVER do this again. Ever.

[Keyser Söze]

Boonskiies, you f*****g genius - probably the most effective gambit I've seen so far on mafiascum. Well-played.

Can we hunt Thor's scum-mates before we hammer please.

[Keyser Söze]

Fair play to you mate - I've seen you lol-quickhammer countless times but this has raised my appreciation of your game to a new level.


Yes, we've got 13 days here - I'm not saying let's use all 13, but let's get all our null-reads/lurkers out in the open. We can draw up a few associations through the D1/D2 play too, to make us more informed for later decisions...

[Keyser Söze]

There is no third party scum in this game. It is town versus mafia.

[Keyser Söze]

I INVESTIGATED AQUANIM LAST NIGHT LIKE I ALWAYS SUSPECTED,, BECAUSE I FEEL SO WRONG FROM HER PLAYERLIST,,

AND I GOT

"No Result".

...

This sounds like you were roleblocked.

WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING,, IT IS COMMON FOR SOME BAD MAFIA ROLES TO BE UNINVESTIGATABLE, LIKE GODFATHER???

Aquanim would have come back as NOT GUILTY if he was a Mafia Godfather, not NO RESULT.

How often do mafia roleblockers and town jailkeepers occur in the same setup?

I think I've seen them both together in a newbie setup.



Still set for the Thor665 lynch - will re-read Day 1 & 2 this evening.

[Keyser Söze]

I still don't know why Thor665 didn't investigate me - makes me think he knew I wasn't bullsh*tting about being a VT. There was only one way he was going to force my miss-lynch through on D2... with evidence. I.e a positive investigation. Yet he chooses to target Slandaar...

Thus, no N1 follow through with the reads he expressed during D1.

[Keyser Söze]

I'll be online tomorrow guys.

[Keyser Söze]

I'm back, going back to D2, Thor's wagon:

Intent to vote Thor,

with reservations...

Titus had reservations on the D1 wagon's on GuyFawkes/me - it feels to me like she knew all three would/will flip town.


I did not like the timing of this random vote:

VOTE: BBT

Hiiii come and play with me BBT.

I did not like BlueBloodedToffee introduction into the game.
I liked his thorough catch-up.
His posts since that catch-up have been minimal and focused to lynch GuyFawkes/Thor with minimum effort. I.e he has contributed to the miss-lynches but not fully expressed his support/thoughts regarding them.
BlueBloodedToffee is back in my uncomfortable pile.

I wanna lynch Ircher Keysor and Kain today.

Can you explain this.

VOTE: Titus

[Keyser Söze]

Edited:

Boonskiies, you f*****g genius - probably the most effective (scum) gambit I've seen so far on mafiascum. Well-played.

then even then, why will AQUANIM block me?? unless she is mafia roleblocker?

if she is mafia roleblocker then of course we must lynch her

Why must Aquanim be the player that roleblocked you?

I do not understand your failure to grasp the meaning/possible scenario's of a "no result". It does not conclusively prove that Aquanim is a Mafia Godfather, neither a Mafia Roleblocker. You can scum-read Aquanim, but open up to the possibilty of scum outside of Aquanim (or open up to the possibilty that your NO RESULT report was due to a factor outside of Aquanim).

Gunsmith
Jailkeeper
Odd night Cop
Mafia Roleblocker x3
VTs

Is it plausible?

Let's ask these questions later - we're not breaking the set-up on D3 unless we have a mass-roleclaim.

[Keyser Söze]

Really, if you're town, these reads should make pretty good sense to you.

Keysor's on it because Thor wanted it and is dead and confirmed town.

Thor was lynched by us (town) because we miss-read the limitations of a fake-Watcher-gambit.
Thor was not killed by scum because of his reads.

If Thor was night-killed by mafia you may have an argument.

"Keysor's on it because Thor wanted it and is dead and confirmed town."

- just because a confirmed townie reads someone as scum, it doesn't make them more likely to be scum. Thus, your reasons for wanting me lynched are based on a logical fallacy.

I.e Thor's personal read of me has nothing to do with my alignment. We are not lynching on the reads of the dead.

Neither am I going to blindly town-read his town-reads. Are you happy to invest in this false reasoning?

So, no Titus, your read does not make "pretty good sense" to me.

[Keyser Söze]

so your meaning is that even if i was blocked by someone OTHER than AQUANIM,, I will still get No Result??

Yes, the mafia roleblocker could be

anyone

(not just the person you investigated).

[Keyser Söze]

Why are/were there votes on KainTepes (no counter claim) he's

our cop

isn't he? (...yet to prove the validity of that claim).

[Keyser Söze]

The cc is the guy we lynched yesterday because Boon faked a gambit. :/

Gunsmith isnt a cop. The gunsmith was thrown in because of the vig (Boonskiies) - who's basically got a great claim of being town-aligned in my eyes (almost town confirmed with TellTaleHeart saying she jailed Boonskiies N1). I won't be lynching him today. There are no third party/other scum, only mafia. KainTepes is a cop. Cops investigate mafia.

Although telling is the fact I am being wagoned and people pretending my reads don't exist only after I voted Ircher.

What I have read so far is you saying we must lynch either me or Kain Tepes. Neither are possibilities for today IMO. I would rather die than Kain Tepes. I will look at your Ircher case next.

It doesn't matter if scum night killed or mislynched Thor. They silenced him. That is unless you want to argue a Thor wagon was all town?

The majority of town silenced him. Don't tell me it was a scum-lead miss-lynch. I wasn't on the wagon but I wanted him dead too. I don't think all of the scum team would have been on that wagon anyway.

[Keyser Söze]

This is my worst town game ever.....

You have defended town all game and shown hesitation on all the main miss-lynch wagons (me, GuyFawkes, Thor).
That is not "worst town game ever" - that is scum who knows who is town, or town having a great game.

Show me your "trying to save town" with a solid push on scum and I will unvote. I do not like your reasons for wanting me or Kain Tepes dead.

Scum can easily defend town. Your random mason defence of GuyFawkes on D1 was weird, and your random tangent counter wagon on BBT D2 was weird too.

[Keyser Söze]

Votecount 2.5

Thor665

(6) - Boonskiies, BlueBloodedToffee, popsofctown, KainTepes, Ircher, Titus
Keyser Soze (1) -

Thor665

KainTepes (1) -

TellTaleHeart

Not voting (3) - Aquanim, Keyser Soze, massive

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch someone.

Thoughts on the miss-lynch VC:

You might as well have my name on the Thor665 wagon because the fake-Watcher gambit had me convinced he was scum (even though I town-read him before).

Thor665 (6) - Boonskiies, BlueBloodedToffee, popsofctown, KainTepes, Ircher, Titus,

^^
I'm hunting for 3 mafia.

There's at least 1 scum on that wagon, possibly 2.

And at least 1 off of it: Keyser Soze, massive, Aquanim.

[ON] I like Boonskiies as the town vig, KainTepes as the cop, so one/two from: BlueBloodedToffee, popsofctown, Ircher, Titus.
[OFF] If I remove my town-read (Aquanim) that leaves

massive

.

The person I want to sort now is Ircher

: because two players I'm not town-reading are voting for him. This could change my read of massive/Titus if Ircher is scum.





FYI, I didn't like popsofctown's push on boonskiies (but popsofctown has alot of town-points already in the bank):

Wait... should we be voting Boonskies today?


Theoretically, if Boonskies is not scum, his gambit should have worked. Someone scum who actually targeted the N1 victim should have fessed up and gone for the head-to-head.

Why didn't his gambit work? If a scum refused to take ownership of visiting the victim and Boonskies announced which person did visit the victim, but didn't take ownership, they just die without getting the head to head, which is strictly worse when Boonskies said he had two names.

Furthermore, X-shot vig double targetting the night's actual victim is a really sketchy, convenient claim.

Occam's razor, Boonskies is a scum-aligned tracker that saw Thor visit the dead player, then had a crazy idea. He started with a watcher claim on the night's victim, which is safe if he was tracked, then switched to a vig claim on the night's victim, which is ALSO safe if he was tracked. He was hoping 2 players visited the dead player.

Remember what TellTaleHeart (the Town Jailkeeper) said earlier:

I was the reason your vig shot failed. Sorry.

Thus, Boonskiies was both roleblocked and protected N1 - so cannot be a mafia tracker "that saw Thor visit the dead player".

Obviously, on Day Two scum called Boonkiies' bluff and did not confess visiting Slandaar. I may re-read that whole passage of play again, see who was active, see who was hiding.