Mini 1794: Gunslingers Ahoy! {Game Over}

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: IAI

Still don't believe you.

[MURDERCAT]

People who vote twice in RVS are trying too hard. More likely scum than town.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[MURDERCAT]

Games gotta start somehow

[MURDERCAT]

Kill, can we get number needed to lynch in the vote counts?

[MURDERCAT]

Yes, I find it useful later on though and a lot of mods do it. This isn't my only game so I like to know at a glance. I don't see how I'm trying to remove pressure, wagons have to start eventually.

[MURDERCAT]

If you want people to vote for me how about you explain how I'm scummy?

[MURDERCAT]

That was in reference to the growing wagon on me.

[MURDERCAT]

Besides you said that your vote was serious before I said that so what was your initial reason for it being serious?

[MURDERCAT]

I don't really like that you switched your reason for voting me.

[MURDERCAT]

Misrepping what? I asked account to explain my "RVS scumminess" and they responded with something that happened post vote. That's not strange?

[MURDERCAT]

Lol dwlee, who wouldn't think that was you?

[MURDERCAT]

You didn't explain anything you just quoted my post lmao

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah duh but there's no reason given. When I asked for a reason I got something relating to after that post.

[MURDERCAT]

I addressed the main point directly, you misinterpreted my post.

[MURDERCAT]

Like all you said about the quote you took issue with is that it's terrible so I don't know how you want me to address that.

[MURDERCAT]

Terrible logic ^

[MURDERCAT]

Fine I'll be more explicit. Accountant please explain why your vote on me became serious.

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah because it hasn't been answered.

[MURDERCAT]

Thank you. My vote remains although now it's for the weak jump on to my wagon then disappearing.

PEdit: my issue was with you refusing to explain the first part.

[MURDERCAT]

I.e not that I didn't understand it.

[MURDERCAT]

You and chumba had some relevant commentary that came with your votes. Drunstall disappeared not literally, but from the conversation. He joined the wagon but didn't push me.

[MURDERCAT]

Why do you trust accountant to scum hunt for you? You vote for pressure but don't actually put any pressure on?

[MURDERCAT]

Not really, I addressed your misunderstanding and clairfied my vote. You found my reasoning for voting Dunnstral invalid, that's fine I don't really see how to respond to that. I did find it valid that's why I used it. I'm also not sure how to respond to you disliking my phrasing.

[MURDERCAT]

Chumba has at least posted more about me than Dunnstral.

[MURDERCAT]

Dunnstral literally did sheep your vote and then didn't do anything after that I don't think I made a big leap there to be honest.

[MURDERCAT]

Sure but don't you think there's a chance accountant is scum and you'll look silly?

[MURDERCAT]

My point is he voted for pressure and didn't push me directly at all after that.

[MURDERCAT]

Until accountant understands it.

[MURDERCAT]

Accountant is my only town read right now actually. But the point is you shouldn't let other people pressure for you because they may have different motives. If accountant pressures, says I'm scum, you sheep and don't try to figure it out for yourself and then I turn out to be town you will look silly. Assuming you are town of course.

[MURDERCAT]

I do not think you are scum accountant.

[MURDERCAT]

Not because of the push on me though.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm not saying he did nothing. I'm saying he didn't push me directly. You don't think it's weird that someone votes with the intention of adding pressure but then doesn't actually ask any questions or provide any real criticism? 80 and 81 came after actually.

You and chumba had some relevant commentary that came with your votes. Drunstall disappeared not literally, but from the conversation. He joined the wagon but didn't push me.

[MURDERCAT]

I don't like that the vote on me is serious now with no explanation but I think scum probably doesn't post 60. Not sure which thing I feel more strongly about, probably scum not posting 60.

[MURDERCAT]

He RVS voted though.

[MURDERCAT]

Because there's pressure on a townie, no reason to jump in there.

[MURDERCAT]

Why do you think scum wouldn't post 60?

Because there's pressure on a townie, no reason to jump in there.

[MURDERCAT]

I think if he was scum white knighting he would have done a better job of it.

[MURDERCAT]

Right but Dunnstral said he voted and didn't pressure as if it's the same as what he did. I did say I didn't like that he provided no explanation.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm not going to pretend my case is stronger than it is. My initial reasoning was very weak. Sure. It was based on a page of RVS. I disagree with this if you replace poor with weak:

Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

Then I found the way he left the discussion after casting a vote suspicious.

[MURDERCAT]

Not really, I addressed your misunderstanding and clairfied my vote. You found my reasoning for voting Dunnstral invalid, that's fine I don't really see how to respond to that. I did find it valid that's why I used it. I'm also not sure how to respond to you disliking my phrasing.

As I pointed out to TBG, your reasoning as it stands is invalid.

So far I've found that most of your posts revolve around defense.

Can you provide a case against Dunnstral commensurate with Accountant's case against you?

I'm not going to pretend my case is stronger than it is. My initial reasoning was very weak. Sure. It was based on a page of RVS. I disagree with this if you replace poor with weak:

Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

Then I found the way he left the discussion after casting a vote suspicious.

[MURDERCAT]

I've literally said the same thing 5 times now as Dunnstral pointed out.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm not saying he did nothing. I'm saying he didn't push me directly. You don't think it's weird that someone votes with the intention of adding pressure but then doesn't actually ask any questions or provide any real criticism? 80 and 81 came after actually.

You and chumba had some relevant commentary that came with your votes. Drunstall disappeared not literally, but from the conversation. He joined the wagon but didn't push me.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm saying I don't think my case was poor, but it was admittedly weak. But I also think that's fine to try to get out of RVS which it did accomplish.

[MURDERCAT]

Accountant, my argument is people keep asking the same shit so I don't know what you want.

[MURDERCAT]

I never said they weren't shallow.

[MURDERCAT]

Well I commented on Black star. Generally I think those that have jumped on weakly are more likely to be scum such as zefiend and chumba. TBG's posts I could see coming from scum or town. Same for you, maybe a slight town lean.

[MURDERCAT]

Because people are asking me direct questions about it. Pretty crazy stuff.

[MURDERCAT]

those that have jumped on weakly are more likely to be scum such as zefiend

Huh?

154 looks fake, like he didn't really read what I wrote/have written.

[MURDERCAT]

Point out examples and explain what's wrong and I will try to answer them better. I think I've been perfectly clear.

[MURDERCAT]

If he was reading closely it should have been clear what I was saying.

[MURDERCAT]

He didn't start pushing until I pointed out that he wasn't pushing me. Yet he did post in that time so he was around.

I'm not sure how to make that more clear. In 126 I explained very clearly (IMO) how I felt. 154 ignores what I think is clear in 126: that I am talking about what happened between his vote and me calling him out for not pushing me in 79.

[MURDERCAT]

This is a weird turnaround, disregard my previous read. It now feels much more like white knighting.

[MURDERCAT]

Do you, MURDERCAT, as of right now, believe that Dunnstral is pushing you? If so, do you agree that this invalidates your previous complaint about him not pushing you? Those are yes or no questions, any other answer will lead me to believe that you are trying to obfuscate through wording.

Yes

he is pushing me now.

No

I don't think it invalidates things because the pushing is coming after I mentioned the lack of a push.

[MURDERCAT]

Dunn what is your read on me right now?

[MURDERCAT]

Accountant if I am town what is your Blackstar read?

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: blackstar

Honestly I'd be scumreading me right now because accountant looks good. I think you know I'm town. If we lynch me and I'm confirmed then you look good being on Dunn so you're trying to make a case on him and set him up for the next mislynch.

[MURDERCAT]

I assume town as that's the scenario I put forward.

[MURDERCAT]

196 is in response to dunn. And I said I think you know I'm town.

[MURDERCAT]

Dunn do you think it's weird that qualifier of me being town wasn't in the first post? Like accountant knows I'm town so they forgot to include the "if you're town"? I think I'm overthinking that but I'm wondering if you noticed that too or you were actually just asking.

[MURDERCAT]

Accountant if I am town what is your Blackstar read?

Depends on the people on your wagon. But if you dropped dead right now my read on BlackStar would shift towards town, very slightly.

But if you dropped dead right now my read on BlackStar would shift towards town, very slightly.

If he dropped dead and flipped what
Or just if he died from a dayvig (gunslinger)

Flipped town, to clarify.

Or revealed as inno child etc. etc. Doesn't matter how he dies.

@Dunn Seems like a weird overcorrection to me?

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah well now blackstar is voting you and I think he's scummier than you. I only asked you because it seemed like maybe you picked up on it too.

[MURDERCAT]

I pointed out clearly when and why it changed in 179

[MURDERCAT]

So dunn and I are both scum Blackstar?

[MURDERCAT]

Weird. Well I'm going to sleep. Interested to see if everyone else also thinks 232 is god awful.

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah I know, I dropped it accountant, I just thought Dunn was maybe thinking the same thing.

Pedit lol don't act like that vote isn't weird as shit. Besides its 1:30 I need to sleep.

[MURDERCAT]

TBG, just so I understand you are townreading me right now? I see you don't mind my first serious vote the way accountant has and don't think my defensiveness is inappropriate, but that's not what the case on me is really about right now. How do you feel about the other things people have brought up? I.e. That I acted weird when there was less pressure on me and that I've purposely avoided questions?

[MURDERCAT]

Also, hey chilled, did you get a haircut or something? I almost didn't recognize you.

[MURDERCAT]

very

[MURDERCAT]

Not at all, I think it fits your username well

[MURDERCAT]

Center=content I think

[MURDERCAT]

And I think realistic may = unrealistic

[MURDERCAT]

Mb

[MURDERCAT]

Ok I need to catch up here.

[MURDERCAT]

Honestly every time I've seen people self vote when they aren't hammering it's been a townie. I've also been involved in lynching people going off like Blackstar is and they have flipped town.

UNVOTE:

Until I do some ISOs.

[MURDERCAT]

Transcend talk to me. Also if it turns out that both blackstar and I are town, how do people feel about accountant? I feel like scum is laying low right now.

[MURDERCAT]

I just realized why I don't feel like I know what's going on, it's because like 6 people have done most of the posting.

[MURDERCAT]

Why accountant, you don't have to full wall right now but give me a little more at least.

[MURDERCAT]

I think there's been a lot of TvT so far, including you/chumba

[MURDERCAT]

I think the push on me was fine because it started the game. I thought the push on blackstar was fine because blackstar did some scummy things. Do you not?

[MURDERCAT]

Derek post a reads list, TBG makes a good point.

[MURDERCAT]

This is top level of your list worthy?

[MURDERCAT]

I only finished the FIRST page of my catch-up and I already have to address points that are either misrepping me or casting shade on my thought process.

@MURDERCAT

Well I commented on Black star. Generally I think those that have jumped on weakly are more likely to be scum such as zefiend and chumba. TBG's posts I could see coming from scum or town. Same for you, maybe a slight town lean.

I placed the initial vote on you (which was RVS by the way) so the claim that I "jumped on weakly" is flat out false. I held my vote on you while pressuring you because that is how games get started: with a wagon to see how the wagonee handles pressure. At the current moment in this time-travel, you are still handling pressure very poorly. I am not the only one that has pressured you and noticed that you were beginning to flail by dodging questions and using circular logic.

If he was reading closely it should have been clear what I was saying.

Here is the post in question:

I'm not going to pretend my case is stronger than it is. My initial reasoning was very weak. Sure. It was based on a page of RVS. I disagree with this if you replace poor with weak:

Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

Then

I found the way he left the discussion after casting a vote suspicious

.

It is very clear what you said. Your suspicion is based on an entirely false assertion: that he "left the discussion." That is the definition of misrepresentation.

I'm getting tired of arguing about this. He placed a vote and then posted fluff while accountant followed up. He rejoined the discussion after I called him out on it. I had other posts that explained this, which you must have missed. I won't be commenting on this anymore as I've made myself extremely clear multiple times.

[MURDERCAT]

chumba,
Brawl, Derek12, accountant
Null zefiend, Dunnstral, transcend
Scum lean murdercat, chilledtea

Everyone else hasn't really said anything so I can't read them. Your turn

Why am I town lean? You've spent the last few pages emphasizing how scummy I was.

Yeah wtf.

[MURDERCAT]

I'll do a full reads list tonight when I have some time. Hard though with only some people posting.

[MURDERCAT]

Agree with chilled, you were nowhere near being lynched.

[MURDERCAT]

Now I have to reread this whole game because I've forgotten a lot that has happened...

[MURDERCAT]

Also has murdercat been flying under the radar or what's going on

My issue is that I think everyone who is posting a lot is probably town. Like, I think TBG v Chumba was TvT, I think you and accountant are probably T and the way Blackstar went off and self voted makes me think he is T (partly because garmr went off in a similar way in my last game and he was T). I honestly do see a case against chilled because he hasn't done anything this game when he was super townie in the other game I played with him, he's kind of wishy washy on me, and how chilled interacted with blackstar felt a little strange to me. But he's not caught up and that stuff is really weak, so I need more. Other than that, who has really done anything? Derek has asked a few random questions and then not really gone anywhere with them. I felt like zefiend's push against me wasn't fully genuine, but he's replacing out now. Not a lot of content there either really. Transcend has barely posting anything and is being replaced. IAI is in eternal catch up. RachMarie posted a super vague readlist and a couple random catch up notes. And ConvergentConclusion has an RVS vote.

So I'm having a hard time figuring out how to be productive because the only people posting a lot are probably or lean town for me.

[MURDERCAT]

I think it's TvT because I'm reading both of you as town.

[MURDERCAT]

And when I catch up its all town reads posting so I don't feel like there's anything particularly important to comment on.

And by the way, if anyone is scum in you vs TBG, I think it's you.

[MURDERCAT]

But TBG's case was potentially explained by the mobile posting and lack of access so I don't see what your issue is. TBG just said there was no point pushing it for now.

P Edit: Ok

[MURDERCAT]

Inb4 why are you defending TBG so hard.

Nobody finds it scummy that he ignored the person who more matched a person active lurking and instead falsely accused me of it when none of my posts match his own examples?

I think this whole thing is a bit silly. Active lurking or not, TBG was willing to drop it. I'll agree you weren't actively lurking, but I don't think that makes TBG scum. I think the issue was that (he thinks) you seemed noncommittal, I think active lurking was the wrong term.

Nobody finds it weird that when I point out him overlooking dunn's active lurking in the beginning he actually agreed with me yet doesn't push on Dunn?

See above. I think the real issue he had was you were being noncommittal. Dunn wasn't active but was clearly on one side. I know you think you were clearly on one side, but it's less obvious from your posts.

Nobody finds it weird that he accused me of not asking questions, not giving any reads, and just making observations, and saying he actually read my posts but if he had there's no way he could say those things because they were flat out not true?

See above. I don't think that's what he's saying.

There's no town motivation for any of these things. There is certainly scum motivation for it.

Eh.

Maybe he thought I looked like an easy target cause my l-2 vote on murder. Maybe he's scum with murder, maybe he's trying to WK murder. Who knows but saying untrue things over and over again is not town. If people town read them you really don't want to know what I'm thinking. I won't post it though cause I'm a nice girl but let's say it's not very nice thoughts at all.

Like this whole argument is that TBG thought you backed away from pushing after voting. Which is a little bit valid, at least compared to Accountant. But you were involved so I don't think that makes you scum, you just weren't as aggressive about pushing me.

[MURDERCAT]

Agree TBG. We should lynch whoever is scummiest, we will have plenty of info to work with day 2.

[MURDERCAT]

I need more content from like 6 people

[MURDERCAT]

Blah blah more TvT

[MURDERCAT]

Honestly it's really hard to find motivation to play this game with half the player list replacing out or barely posting.

[MURDERCAT]

This is where I'm at right now, I'm missing a scum probably, but yeah.

[TehBrawlGuy]
[Chumba]
[BlackStar, Accountant, Dunnstral]
[Transcend, Derek12]
[RachMarie (NightmareGaunt), I Am Innocent, KickAssAndGiggle (ConvergentConclusion)]
[chilledtea, zefiend]

[MURDERCAT]

If I were confident I'd be doing a lot more, but yeah I'll go in depth.

[MURDERCAT]

Whatever Dunn I had that before you posted that, look at the times.

[MURDERCAT]

I was working on that for like 5 minutes before you even posted

[MURDERCAT]

TBG:
96 Coming in and townreading me and pushing chumba is begging to be attacked by Accountant so I don't think scum does that
Generally interacting with everyone and seems genuine in those interactions
Doesn't go over the top pushing either Blackstar or Chumba. Even when interacting with them he seems genuine in his desire to understand their thinking.
559 Unvotes Blackstar, I don't think scum does that.
General lack of anything that looks really scummy to me.

Chumba:
36 The wagons are fun post doesn't ping me at all. Plenty of town motivation for getting any random wagon started. If anything, I'd expect scum to make it look more legitimate.
I don't really buy into any of TBG's posts about Chumba at all and Chumba's posts read to me like town who is being falsely accused for poor reasons.
Also a general lack of anything that looks really scummy to me.

Blackstar:
I'll concede that Black looks really scummy on the surface. Posts like 232 I really don't like.
However, 557 (the self vote) just screams upset town to me. Maybe it's because I've played with a lot of angry townies in my first couple games, but I think scum doesn't go off like this.
I also think the more recent posting has been good.

Accountant:
I don't think the push on me was 100% genuine (aka I thought some of your points were overblown), but it was the beginning of the game and I think you are a very aggressive player so I don't think you are scum for it.
I think the change in read on Blackstar was genuine, scum wouldn't be so obvious.
I remember thinking that some of your early posts had a genuine sense of open-mindedness

Dunnstral:
Eventually became involved in the conversation about me so that point went away.
243 Still think unvoting is more likely to come from town. I think scum likes the confusion no vote counts was causing.
General lack of anything that looks really scummy to me.

Transcend:
Weak town lean because I wasn't seeing scum motivation in the pushes he made.

Derek12:
Weak town lean because I agreed with some points in his reads list so it feels more legit to me.

Null folks are null

chilledtea:
scum lean because

he hasn't done anything this game when he was super townie in the other game I played with him, he's kind of wishy washy on me, and how chilled interacted with blackstar felt a little strange to me.

zefiend:
scum lean because it seemed he purposely ignored some things I explained to make me look bad 154, was a bit too defensive at points 656, seems like he was leaving a lot of mislynch options open in his reads list.

[MURDERCAT]

So you must have reasoning then yes? If you've been working on it for ~10 minutes, can I hear your detailed thoughts on:

BlackStar
Rachmarie
Zefiend

No real thoughts on Rachmarie right now.

[MURDERCAT]

Second from the bottom is null. Within a bracket is all ranked the same. KAAG's name is included only for readability.

[MURDERCAT]

For the reasons I quoted

[MURDERCAT]

About chilled:

The fluff is null because I started it (and is generally null anyway).

However he won't take a firm stance on me, which I think is a bit strange because we just got out of a game together and I've posted plenty.

He also has said he's catching up, but then hasn't really done anything. I can kind of give him a break for that because I'm not super engaged in this game either, but I feel like he would just come out and say that if it were true.

[MURDERCAT]

You didn't explain why I'm town Dunn, if that was legitimate.

[MURDERCAT]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=65862
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66091

I already said I've lost a lot of motivation because a number of people have barely posted and the most interesting content from the last however many pages is an argument on the definition of active lurker between two people I'm pretty sure are town. I've been waiting for the chilled catch-up/content that never comes.

[MURDERCAT]

Are we really still thinking black star is scum? Like, does this really look like scum play to anyone?

[MURDERCAT]

Like I admit there's individually scummy stuff but on a whole I just don't think it's scum play.

[MURDERCAT]

The self vote, being antagonistic, and all over the place reads make me think that black star isn't trying to be town read. He clearly wants to be, but he has caught heat for certain actions and hasn't changed his behavior and it doesn't feel like he's trying to appease anyone.

[MURDERCAT]

In those two games I linked I had 3 townies self vote and 2 scum self vote. When scum did it they self hammered calmly to end discussion. 2 of the townies went off similar to blackstar. I won't talk about ongoing games, but suffice to say they haven't changed my viewpoint. So that's where I'm coming from.

[MURDERCAT]

I"m not talking about a player's meta, I'm talking about general trends I've noticed. Isn't that what a lot of scum hunting is, matching behavior to trends? That plus looking at motivation is what I consider to be scum hunting.

[MURDERCAT]

I only have 2 completed games so there's not really anything I can do about that except play more and try to get better. But those two games are what I have to work with, so I'm going to go with it. Your read on Blackstar was all over the place early on so don't act like it should be so obvious he's scum when you thought he could be town as well.

[MURDERCAT]

^ Obv buddying = KAAG is scum

[MURDERCAT]

Joke post is a joke

[MURDERCAT]

Kill posted a request, just hasn't said it in thread.

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah, it's possible, I just think that on day 1 there's always someone who is "obvious scum" who is actually just town getting jumped on. The fact that everyone is happy to call him scum makes me suspicious and the way he went off really does read townie to me. Maybe he still gets lynched because I admit there is scummy stuff, but I don't know my gut says he's probably town.

[MURDERCAT]

No some people have town read me, at least a bit.

[MURDERCAT]

@MURDERCAT:

Chilled is your only active scumread right now, why aren't you pushing him?

I don't think he's actually caught up.

[MURDERCAT]

Want to explain?

[MURDERCAT]

Ok give me an hour

[MURDERCAT]

Updated reads list would be great

[MURDERCAT]

Chilled, I guess what I'm having trouble with is that in our last game you lead town (even before you were confirmed) and in this game you have a very go with the flow feeling. I realize you are catching up, but in your first post you say Black is scum, you don't take a stance on me, and say Accountant and TBG are lean town. These are pretty generic reads that represent the overall game state. You then go through the whole game and only really poke at BS some more, continue to not really take stances anywhere, and defend posts directed at you. Even without meta, it looks like you are coasting. So yeah, an updated reads list would be nice and if you could explain what about KAAG's catchup didn't look good to you that would be great too, because I thought it was fine.

[MURDERCAT]

Have you played with KAAG?

Nope, that's why I'm asking. I did skim a game he was scum in at one point.

He catches up like that regardless of alignment. There was not much in there that you could say was "wrong" but it sure wasn't indicative of anything. Also his observations, especially on me felt a bit off.

Fair enough. Can I get an example?

Also black is scum. Not my fault others have said this before, that is not going with the flow. It is what I feel. His reactions to pushes from anyone didn't feel like coming from town to me.

Fine, but I was talking about all your reads, not just BS. My point is that really all you've done in your catch up is poke BS and he is low hanging fruit.

It definitely felt like he was ok with any lynch as long as it's not him. I also do not consider self-votes as something that comes from town and frankly, such a suggestion is ridiculous. Self-votes very rarely come from town - town has no reason to self-vote. Also considering the fact that the self-vote is pretty much his only defence and it shouldn't be surprising why people might be thinking it was a gambit more than actual emotion.

Maybe maybe not. You know that the game we played together had 2 townies self vote so you should understand where I'm coming from.

As far as me not taking a stance on you, I feel you are BS's partner the way you are (hard?)defending him. I also feel that maybe you wouldn't do it as scum. So I am conflicted.

I know you know that I'm better than that.

It is difficult for me to know where you stand at and this isn't the first time this has happened to me in mafia. The previous game we played with you were scummy on day 1 and actually, there were some things you did that I just didn't see coming from town. It wasn't until day 3 I town read you.

If I had to take a stance it would be that you are scum, especially given the fact that you conveniently have placed everybody who was either inactive or had little activity in your null/scum reads.

All of my Day 1s in all of my games are scummy, anybody can go and verify that.

I don't have much to say regarding coasting. It is day 1, there were problems, I have caught up now. I don't see myself lagging behind now.

Still not the issue I'm getting at.

Suffice it to say I am scum reading you, blackstar and to some extent I feel that IAI//KAAG/Transcend could be scum. IAI hasn't really done anything and he has had real life problems and KAAG wall is at least something. Dunn, accountant, zefiend, tbg, chumba are all prob town. Transcend is something of a special case because he is getting replaced, so it is better to reserved judgement till the replacement. Derek is prob town, liked his re-entry. Rach I don't know, dunn makes a valid point about maybe she is whiteknighting but maybe she is more observant that's a possibility as well. I mean she is voting black, and there is a very low chance that black is town/she is bussing him. This applies to KAAG as well, unless he has changed his game a lot (which is possible), he doesn't bus his buddies this quickly and generally tries to create a counter wagon.

This is assuming that black is scum, of course. Which I feel pretty confident of at the moment. I was thinking of his lynch until you came in with your "I am waiting for chilled's catchup!" and now I feel worse about you because what you contributed after my catchup isn't really much other than to say I was more inactive compared to our previous game, or that I have similar scum reads to others. In fact, I knew that there wasn't going to be much anyways. I felt that you were posturing taking advantage of my inactivity of acting like you have actual reads and cases, when you don't.

Well I think my point (that your catch up has consisted of poking at the low hanging fruit and you haven't taken strong stances otherwise) and I wanted to see if that would continue throughout your catch up. I think it was reasonable to wait and see if that pattern would continue.

[MURDERCAT]

Edit: Well I think my point ... *is valid* and ...

[MURDERCAT]

Ok I'll just go through his whole ISO.

[MURDERCAT]

I don’t really ever want to have to defend someone this hard, but since you asked. Note, that while I’m talking about how all of this could be townie, I admit there is potentially scum motivation behind it. There’s a reason BlackStar isn’t my number 1 town read. But everyone has talked about potential scum motivation, so I’m going to talk town motivation.

Spoiler: BlackStar

100 He says Dunn is giving him a bad feeling.
115 Vote on MC is now serious.
177 Votes Dunn for trying to push him on an association.
232 Vote moves back to me.
348 Explains the now town read on Dunn.

I admit at this point I though BlackStar looked really bad. But honestly, if you go back and reread what is so bad about it? Why can’t this be town who believes that either Dunn or I are scum and trying to figure out who is who? Dunn was giving me a bad feeling too early on. I admit it’s not unreasonable to think some of my early posts are scummy. If he thinks only one of us is scum then it makes sense for his reads to change like this.

380

Here BlackStar actually avoids ganging up on Chumba which, considering how Chumba was acting, would not have been unreasonable. This goes against the "he's looking to get anyone lynched" point.

452 & 466

Here his responses to Accountant are honestly all valid in my opinion.

477 Valid, I reacted the same way.

532 Vote for Accountant. Does someone who is looking for any lynch really move their vote to Accountant here? Is the reasoning that Accountant is being super aggressive to force a mislynch really that unbelievable?

557 He’s trying to get anyone lynched but is also willing to self vote (to L-1 no less)? Does the text around it really not seem genuine?

636 No more scum read on Accountant. Does scum really back pedal there? Why would that make sense?

691 Vote for chilled tea. Just sheeping Dunn, clearly to provide pressure.

704 Here he confirms it’s for pressure.

806 Unvotes chilled, again confirms it was for pressure.

884 I agree with this. I don’t think that makes accountant scummy, because I think that’s just how Accountant is, but it makes me less likely to agree with the case.

954 Votes brawl. Not unreasonable because Brawl did just drop the Transcend thing, which other people took issue with as well.

Before during and after the peak of the pressure on him BlackStar has been throwing his vote around and had very volatile reads. This isn’t just squirming under pressure like some people have said. When pressure isn’t on him he is commenting on other things that are happening in the game and contributing. The only time he gets defensive is when he is pushed directly by other players. I really don’t think it’s overly defensive at all. I admit that, at times, some of his posts seem really off. But apparently I just don't see what you guys are picking at as strongly as you do. The fact that everyone seems to be perfectly willing to just let him be lynched also really suggests to me that it might be a mislynch.

[MURDERCAT]

What specifically are you referring to when you say I did something similar?

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah but BBT was actually scum.

[MURDERCAT]

@chilled Fair enough. Earlier you posted a lot of what ifs about if black flips scum. If he flips town who is your biggest scum read?

[MURDERCAT]

In 1109 you say that you were assuming he was scum in your analysis.

[MURDERCAT]

Rach is nightmare, KAAG is CC, and IAI is still in as far I know, they just offered to replace out if they couldn't catch up.

[MURDERCAT]

Bingo

[MURDERCAT]

Dunn buddying = obv scum #2

One more replacement and this game is solved

[MURDERCAT]

Not sure how serious you are and pretty sure the slots town anyway

Not at all

[MURDERCAT]

Not sure how serious you are and pretty sure the slots town anyway

Not at all

[MURDERCAT]

That's fine by me. Other players can see the sense of what I'm saying.

I just see a lot of misreps.

[MURDERCAT]

Not really. They blame your of the mislynch and no longer value your opinion pretty straight forward

That makes no sense. You listed me as a townread, so you know that I'm town and you should want my opinions to be heard. Why would a town member want to silence another own member? Are you scum trying to silence someone you know is town?

Like, are you telling me you don't understand what he's saying here? If you're not going to have a real conversation why even engage him?

[MURDERCAT]

What does that even mean? You seem 100% that he's scum so what are you doing right now? Trying to convince others? I don't think misrepping is the way to do that.

[MURDERCAT]

Lol

[MURDERCAT]

I just wanted to say that even though I've only played one game with Blackstar, this heavily goes against his meta. I'm not so sure he's town, now. I'm still fairly sure, but not with as much certainty.

Can you go more in depth here?

[MURDERCAT]

1198 is bs. If we go lynch blackstar and he flips town I'm going to take a much closer look at Accountant.

[MURDERCAT]

Looks to me like you felt like you hadn't done anything a while and wanted it to look like you were doing something. Feels like you are trying way too hard to look busy. Plus I think putting yourself in there looks bad too, like you really want people to think you're town.

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah, Chumba and BS basically said what I was thinking.

[MURDERCAT]

MURDERCAT, if you have a problem with my use of percentage like Chumba and BS, as you claim in 1229, why did you initially acxuse me of doing it to try to appear busy?

Not sure what the contradiction is. I think that the percentages were added in order to make your list look like more than it was. You were asked for a reads list fine, but the way you went about it felt like you were trying to make it a bigger deal that it was. Same underlying feeling.

[MURDERCAT]

Oh shit. That really looks like a slip.

[MURDERCAT]

Since when are you town reading TBG?

[MURDERCAT]

But you just said he was a strong town player?

[MURDERCAT]

Oh, you are the strong town player? All the pronouns mixed me up.

[MURDERCAT]

Ok never mind.

[MURDERCAT]

MURDERCAT, a while back you said I was town. What changed?

I called you town once so now I can't point out scummy stuff you do? What are you talking about?

[MURDERCAT]

You are no longer a town read, something like null but not really because there's some town things and some scummy things. I meant what I said about being suspicious if black flips town though.

[MURDERCAT]

Because that would mean you pushed hard and then sat on two confirmed townies for day 1 and you were happy to not do much else. Blackstar being town doesn't make you look worse but blackstar being scum makes you look better. If blackstar is town then I just know for sure what I currently think is true (that you attacked two townies and sat on those reads all day). The only reason I don't have you as a scum read is because I'm not sure enough black is town.

[MURDERCAT]

I get you are scumreading TBG but I mainly feel everything that is happening between you and TBG as something that originated from a possible misunderstanding.

Exactly how I feel.

[MURDERCAT]

I actually do agree with your overall point, I just don't think TBG is doing what you're saying TBG is doing.

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah can you explain what about derek says strong scum?

[MURDERCAT]

I'm a bit surprised he landed as strong scum, you didn't comment on him that much.

[MURDERCAT]

54 pages of not much

[MURDERCAT]

Main wagons have been on me, Blackstar, Chilled, and pants/transcend.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm here if you have questions.

[MURDERCAT]

If blackstar was flipped (and town) he would be conf town and I am conf town to myself. I have him as a town lean, but I'm not going to scum read Accountant based on a pre flip town lean read.

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: Pants

Pressure vote. Do something please. I think that's 5 votes? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[MURDERCAT]

Newer list:

[TehBrawlGuy, Chumba, Dunnstral, Pirate Mollie]
[chilledtea, Derek12, Accountant, KickAssAndGiggle, BlackStar]
[RachMarie, Pants98]
[KuroiXHF]

[MURDERCAT]

KuroiXHF, you never explained the Derek read, I don't think.

[MURDERCAT]

Was zefiend before who I already had down there, shitty reads list didn't help.

[MURDERCAT]

Spoiler: Zefiend

So far I've found that most of your posts revolve around defense.

Can you provide a case against Dunnstral commensurate with Accountant's case against you?

I thought this was really baity. Like of course my posts were focused on defense the on thing going on in the game was me being attacked by Accountant. And of course my case on Dunnstral wasn't that strong it was based on the fact that he wasn't talking that much.

I'm not going to pretend my case is stronger than it is. My initial reasoning was very weak. Sure. It was based on a page of RVS. I disagree with this if you replace poor with weak:

Breaking RVS does not serve as justification for voting with poor reasoning.

Then

I found the way he left the discussion after casting a vote suspicious

.

This is blatantly a misrep.

I mean, the guy is literally still here and participating in the discussion.

Already explained I didn't like this post because it was clearly misrepping my point which I had

just

explained.

your entire play feels like a fabrication, starting all the way back with your initial vote. Your current scumread of Dunn and townread of Blackstar are very shallow.

160 posts in the game he's scum reading me for shallow reads? I never said they weren't shallow.

So that's the stuff that made me not like Zefiend (felt like a forced read, wanting to apply pressure to me to get me scum read by more people) plus it never felt like he was actually doing anything after that in any of his posts. Then Kuroi comes in, talks about you for most of his catchup, and then you are just a pissed off townie but somehow also still in scum leans. And Derek and Dunn are scum despite not really posting about them in catch up? Then ignoring me asking for more info. Just seems off to me.

[MURDERCAT]

Oh, just noticed the alt question was directed at me. No I'm pretty much full noob, played a couple games on another site with friends but they all just lurk so it was pretty brutal. So now I'm here with two completed games and a few more ongoing.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm starting a petition to refer to Derek as just random male names for the rest of the game.

[MURDERCAT]

I just think it's fun

[MURDERCAT]

Still think he's towny. Less sure than I am on others, but I think he's more likely town than scum.

[MURDERCAT]

Matt, your vote has been on me for like 500 posts, am I still your top scum read?

[MURDERCAT]

Agree with Dunn. If pants has no content in 24 hours the vote goes back because day 1 is the best time to kill a player like him.

UNVOTE:

[MURDERCAT]

I'm making it hard to hammer a reason, I don't want a hammer yet. There is more info to be gained about his wagon.

I am definitely skeptical of the speed of the wagon, yes. Not as sure as you seem to be it isn't bussing, but yeah it is suspicious.

Reads are a few posts back.

[MURDERCAT]

for a reason*

[MURDERCAT]

Despite the attempted quick hammer?

[MURDERCAT]

If pants flips scum I'd be suspicious of Accountant because if I were bussing there I'd want the day to end asap.

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: Kuroi

Might as well keep my vote here instead of on nothing.

[MURDERCAT]

The speed of the wagon indicates there is scum on the wagon (just speaking mathematically that's true). I don't think, in this situation, scum would be quite so eager to bus when there are definitely counter wagons available. However, it could definitely be possible that town was on scum (e.g. Blackstar) and scum saw a chance to get a quick mislynch and let their scum buddy live another day.

There was a very similar situation in my just finished mini where a player was pushed to L-1 really quickly on Day 1 and I town read him because of that and was right (although he ended up being vigged night 1).

[MURDERCAT]

I don't. But there have been what 8 or so people who are saying pants is scummy? But what's more likely 8 townies quickly agreeing to something or 5 townies and 3 scum agreeing? And it's just as likely that as pants started having more scummy posts, scum got more confident in being able to get that lynch through so I don't think that argument works.

Regardless, I'm not with Dunn here saying pants is probably town now, I'm just saying I don't want a hammer yet because 1. there is a chance he is town and could end up providing useful content and 2. more discussion around him is good for sorting others regardless of what he flips.

[MURDERCAT]

@Black if he doesn't post content he is getting lynched, no doubt about that.

[MURDERCAT]

Right but what does lynching right now do? Like even if he posts more random bs as least we get

some

associations out of it based on how people respond. Like if he actually is town then we are doing scum a huge favor because we don't learn nearly as much than if we flipped someone like blackstar regardless of alignment, you know?

So I'm willing to give it 24 hours to let more people respond, see what pants does, etc. I don't think that's long enough for the wagon to die, but it will let some people who haven't even seen the recent posts respond.

[MURDERCAT]

Oh god the mid game avatar change accountant why I'm gunna be so confused now lol.

[MURDERCAT]

I don't see the harm in waiting TBG.

[MURDERCAT]

Like there's an opportunity to learn more about Chumba, KAAG, chilled, Derek, etc

I don't think any of them have weighed in about the last 5 pages or so.

[MURDERCAT]

Respond to KAAGs case and show how it's wrong?

[MURDERCAT]

Pants if you are here and have last words respond now.

Got content from the people I wanted it from, I'll hammer when I get to work to give pants time to see this.

This is the lynch today, I don't see how it could not be, even if I am a bit concerned he will flip town.

[MURDERCAT]

He is still at L-1 after TBG voting last night right?

[MURDERCAT]

Disagree, if he's scum he got bussed hard. No way a scum buddy does what Dunn did.

[MURDERCAT]

What are the odds he is scum and odds he is town? What should we do with him if he is a trolling townie?

[MURDERCAT]

But then scum can just play trolly and we let them live? Guy has to die eventually and scum won't kill him either way. There's no reason to think he will start to take it seriously. So even just from a policy lynch perspective it's justified. Add to that the fact there's a decent chance he saw his slot was scum and being scum read and decided he should just troll to get the lynch on him or end discussion on someone else or whatever and I think it's a good lynch. And I disagree about there being no info, I think his flip will be informative.

[MURDERCAT]

You are the second person to misunderstand black and he explained this already so I'm going to mention it again. Black isn't saying he is still refusing to claim he is saying he previously refused to claim.

[MURDERCAT]

By looking at the way that people reacted to his wagon, same as any other. You have been against the lynch because you think it's policy, Dunn is against it saying pants is town, Kuroi is refusing to vote, Accountant tried to quick hammer. This is all useful information depending on the flip.

(In other news, I am now at work so after this conversation with Chumba, I'm hammering)

[MURDERCAT]

I'm answering for black now, but believe he was referring to the fact that pants was asked for a claim and instead posted nonsense about bees.

[MURDERCAT]

Well regardless, it's information that is useful after the flip, which is my point.

[MURDERCAT]

so tbg unvoted so

VOTE: pants

readslist and then claim ty! <3

L-1

According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyways. Because bees don't care what humans think is impossible

what? you have been asked for reads and claim

What is this nonsense post?

INTENT TO HAMMER PANTS DUDE

ok dude last chance, and I will give you a bit of time here before hammering, but I want to see a real read post not nonsense about bees

[MURDERCAT]

Kuroi is scum so I'm not going to entertain this, anyone else feel like it? No? I'm gunna hammer then.

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: Pants

Still don't see how we let pants live today.

[MURDERCAT]

Pls flip...

[MURDERCAT]

Post them now then.

[MURDERCAT]

If you are town there is no reason not to share. Have you even read the game?

[MURDERCAT]

Enlighten us.