kuribo in Wonderland - [Game Over]

[Nachomamma8]

My phone is dying. If you don't possess a Kuribo avatar and your name is not DGB, you are not worthy of my vote.

Vote: Katsuki

[Nachomamma8]

Camn's plan for kings running for playing death sounds like the best way to play this setup, but giving kings more will would certainly be more entertaining and in the spirit of the game; it seems like she's worried about not having any idea of who will die but transparency is trust and a good King will be trusted at least.

[Nachomamma8]

The moderator has edited this post out because it discussed an ongoing game.

I liked the beginning of this post.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not going to bold my suspicions because that feels too close to FoS. I also am posting on a tiny phone and while it should make me feel like a big scary giant, instead I feel like I have a tiny penis and that makes me sad.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you want fun or glory, Fate?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you want fun or glory, Fate?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you want fun or glory, Fate?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you want fun or glory, Fate?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you want fun or glory, Fate?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you want fun or glory, Fate?

[Nachomamma8]

Because they're lame. I don't need bold to express myself.

[Nachomamma8]

Thank you Kuribo.

Nacho, its your move

I'm not ready to go full clownfuck yet, whenever I go full clownfuck my reads are terrible and asshole mods kill me for posting in twilight

[Nachomamma8]

So then post them without bold?

What?

[Nachomamma8]

So then post them without bold?

What?

Sorry, I think I lost track of what you're driving at here.

I don't do FoS because my suspicions are usually obvious in my posts; if you need a bold announcement of who I suspecting to know who I am suspecting, you aren't reading my posts and thus I don't care about you. Making an unbolded announcement of who I am suspected doesn't solve that problem at all.

Why do you care about whether I FoS or not?

[Nachomamma8]

What are Zombie posts again?

[Nachomamma8]

What are Zombie posts again?

[Nachomamma8]

I think that hypoing the results is probably the way to go if that's how we want to do things. I'm not sure that's the way that we want to do things.

[Nachomamma8]

i specifically didn't wanna vote fate til I have a read on him but I probably would anyway at this point out of all the current wagons for philosophical reasons

I don't think there's anything special or abnormal about Fate's philosophy to the game thus far. I think that votes on him now are votes of trust in him to kill scum; if you are voting for him for any reason other than this, you are probably voting him for a bad reason.

[Nachomamma8]

All you people should feel bad for thinking this is good.

What part of my reasoning are you positioning against?

[Nachomamma8]

In thinking that directing the kill is better than not because I don't see the same value in reading off a king's choice than you do? I don't think that competent scum will be caught with their king choices and I also fear that competemt scum as king can make some decisions that are pretty freaking damaging to town and still possess wiggle room afterwards.

[Nachomamma8]

Or perhaps that is a paranoia I possess simply because I've utterly dominated as scum in kingmaker setups; I understand that there isn't a lot of concrete evidence supporting my way but "king decisions give information" isn't the most substantive thing to argue against.

[Nachomamma8]

As for zombie posts i'm not convinced that they eliminate information for scum to speculate on.
For example anyone who claims a guilty result and a not-guilty result can no longer be a paranoid/naive cop. Essentially the scum may be able to poe some amount of information.
That said I'm willing to try it out. When I saw the "there are multiple cops in this setup" I was wondering if we were gonna try massclaiming and/or if there's something built into the setup to prevent that from being useful. But I'm willing to see how it goes.

Dangerous with a single cop, not so dangerous with multiple.

[Nachomamma8]

In thinking that directing the kill is better than not because I don't see the same value in reading off a king's choice than you do? I don't think that competent scum will be caught with their king choices and I also fear that competemt scum as king can make some decisions that are pretty freaking damaging to town and still possess wiggle room afterwards.

I absolutely agree that we should direct the king's choice here, which is why I agreed with Camn's suggestion earlier. If someone states they will execute X Person, and that someone gets elected, then obviously the majority wanted to lynch X.

Electing someone and saying they have to lynch whoever we tell them to is dumb because they're just following the town consensus. There's nothing to be read off of that except the majority of the people thinking he will just do what the town wants him to do.

Why is it important to read off what the king does?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm confused.

[Nachomamma8]

But I'm also not horribly interested in this conversation but am not sure where it's leading. I believe that the optimal play is to direct Kings. I will not support that plan because I don't think it's as fun; I won't elect someone for no reason, granted, but I won't elect someone to kill my scumreads.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd currently advocate death for anyone voting a player for their platform.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh? I wouldn't know. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But in all seriousness, who do you want to lynch?

I need to discuss with camn.

I almost unvoted when I read this post. I vote for tyrants, not one-eared Kings.

[Nachomamma8]

So you plan to direct the king, but it won't be based on lynching your scumreads. Tell me, how do you plan on lynching scum then?

Do you believe that I don't know how to play a Kingmaker setup?

[Nachomamma8]

I've never insinuated such a thing. I've only asked you what you were planning to rely on to lynch scum.

What do you think my criteria for electing a king will be based on what I've said I'm thread? If you don't know, guess.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh? I wouldn't know. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But in all seriousness, who do you want to lynch?

I need to discuss with camn.

I almost unvoted when I read this post. I vote for tyrants, not one-eared Kings.

<3

Granted I do have a few I'd consider shooting at this point.

I was really hoping that we'd have time to talk after election because I wanted to watch Fate plead for his life but alas~

I'd love to see him beg for salvation, but you know the new Fate and I know the new Fate and we both know it's probably gonna look something like HUEHUEHUE KATAUKI YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOTHING and everyone's going to go to sleep disappointed and pining for the old days yet again.

[Nachomamma8]

I believe you've said you were trusting in the king's ability to find scum. Which makes me think you're treating this game more similarly to Popcorn Mafia (I believe this is the correct reference).

And part of trusting a king's ability to find scum (a majority of it, I'd argue) is making sure that his reads make sense and aren't absolute garbage, which means that our reads will very likely be similar. Do you understand?

[Nachomamma8]

Yes. I am currently voting Katsuki because, unlike Fate, he is actually making moves to scumhunt. Do you still stand behind your Fate vote?

[Nachomamma8]

L-2. Don't elect Katsuki until he's ready to ascend or risk your misplaced loyalty being rewarded with death.

[Nachomamma8]

I wouldnt mind taking a drunkshot to be perfectly honest

Too deep for drunk shots, Katsuki.

[Nachomamma8]

i

have a could shots in mind

Too deep for drunk shots, Antihero.

[Nachomamma8]

By hero he meant super saint.

[Nachomamma8]

And I didn't think that was a very good point but I say that points are bad when I don't understand where they are coming from.

[Nachomamma8]

i

have a could shots in mind

Too deep for drunk shots, Antihero.

oh come on don't be a wet diaper

guess who it is.

I'm sorry, but I won't be dancing for you tonight.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

[Nachomamma8]

Remember when I said now is not the time? Still not the time.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934616 time=1463807163 user_id=15399 post_num=272]There are four scums (don't ask me how I know this, I am psycho). I think Antihero and Kastuki could be two of them but I am not very confident in many reads yet.

Why?

I'd also like to hear about the Kuribo read.

[Nachomamma8]

That said 275 looks kinda genuine to me.

How?

[Nachomamma8]

That is a post that said absolutely noting.

[Nachomamma8]

I think that hypoing the results is probably the way to go if that's how we want to do things. I'm not sure that's the way that we want to do things.

Come on Nacho, take a stand!

The real question: can I be fucked to fake cop results?
Right now, probably not. Tomorrow, sure.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934674 time=1463808748 user_id=15399 post_num=288]

BTW GODZ IS TOWN BEYOND TOWN AND IS A TRUSTED ADVISOR/CONCUBINE

For the record, this is one of many not-very-town-seeming posts that I think Kastuki has made but I cannot really explain well why I think this. That said, I appreciate the offer and would gladly be your concubine, even if you are an evil king who spreads lies and deceit among us.

I have feeling that the words you are seeking are that you think that it was an unreasonably strong townread on someone and I am here to tell you that those are the devil's words and you should banish them from your mind forever.

[Nachomamma8]

is zakk usually this cloyingly shitick-ish?

He was better in the last game I played with him, and he was scum.

[Nachomamma8]

what is "better"?

More enjoyable.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934699 time=1463809387 user_id=15399 post_num=295]That isn't the reason for it. Kastuki knows something Pawtucket doesn't (or didn't) and that's all I am going to say on the matter.

Who is Pawtucket and what?

[Nachomamma8]

what is "better"?

More enjoyable.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm

not sure what game youre referring to but in evolution he didn't go out of his way to be cute

He didn't go out of his way to be cute there, either; the only thing I'm saying is the last time I played with zakk he wasn't at all like this. I don't think that it's the difference between his scum game and his towngame; I just think he's usually a better player in general.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934799 time=1463813291 user_id=15399 post_num=330]I didn't explain why I thought you were scum because you literally have no game-related content.

This isn't really a fair accusation to make; Antihero has talked about zakk being cloyingly shtickish when that isn't his normal behavior, which is an accusation that makes sense when the majority of the game was clownfucking around earlier; in particular, the brofist and campaigning for Fate posts, advocating the immediate Katsuki hammer, agreeing with Spiffeh on the hiplop execute for ??? reasons. His scumread on Spiffeh when Spiffeh is calling zakk a "never shoot" read makes sense based on this. I don't think this qualifies as "no game relevant content", especially as early game as this was. I think that you would have better success pushing elsewhere if that's the tell you felt the strongest about.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934813 time=1463813606 user_id=15399 post_num=334]

yeah ok now i just have a flat-out scumread on godz

Is this the part where I ask you to elaborate and you either (a) give an incredibly awful explanation and pretend it's not awful, or (b) pretend that you're not giving an explanation because I don't explain things either?

dz post_id=7934819 time=1463813735 user_id=15399 post_num=337]Kastuki, I have a single request:

If you become King, please strongly consider making Antihero dead. For me. Thanks. I don't care if you're a scum. Just do it and I'll vote you every day I'm alive.

Towards Antihero, I understand how the strength of this progression seems incredibly unreasonable but this looks like an exchange that just got overly charged at the time; I think that an overwhelming majority of the animosity against you right now is because he doesn't understand what you're doing and instead thinks that you're being mean to him for no reason.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho r u scum

I'm the opposite of scum!

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934851 time=1463815277 user_id=15399 post_num=346]And, still, no explanation for the "reads" you've given, after a full-blown criticism about how that sort of "spam" doesn't move the game forward.

*clap* *clap*

You're really sticking it to me by doing what you think is not-good-for-the-game just to make a point about your opinion on me.

You sure are a good player.

I think that this response is pretty overblown for what it's worth.

[Nachomamma8]

zakk is another good candidate for town.

Do you have any scumreads?

This was me, my bad.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh sweet, I was post 425. Birthday post. lol

Nacho, can you answer 362 for me please?

I'm in the process of catching up; I'll be sure to respond once I get to it, though.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934888 time=1463816757 user_id=15399 post_num=350]

to keep the thread from getting toxic i'll just disengage i guess...?

you can have the last word

If you're going to use this as an excuse to lurk, I'm going to demand Katsuko shoots you.

Asking you to explain your read on me isn't toxic and isn't going to make the thread toxic. Ask you about your other reads doesn't require any toxicity, either, and there's no good reason to avoid answering the questions.

Asking him to explain his read on you isn't where the potential for toxicity came from. These posts is where the potential for toxicity came from:

dz post_id=7934809 time=1463813526 user_id=15399 post_num=333]What? Your extremely non-committal "mkay spiffeh's scum" because he said he had two town reads? That was serious?

I find it ironic that you call my posts "shitposting" if that's the level of play I can expect from you.

dz post_id=7934813 time=1463813606 user_id=15399 post_num=334]

yeah ok now i just have a flat-out scumread on godz

Is this the part where I ask you to elaborate and you either (a) give an incredibly awful explanation and pretend it's not awful, or (b) pretend that you're not giving an explanation because I don't explain things either?

dz post_id=7934819 time=1463813735 user_id=15399 post_num=337]Kastuki, I have a single request:

If you become King, please strongly consider making Antihero dead. For me. Thanks. I don't care if you're a scum. Just do it and I'll vote you every day I'm alive.

dz post_id=7934841 time=1463814751 user_id=15399 post_num=343]You go off about how I'm not being helpful and shit. Where's your fucking explanations? You've been asked and refused to elaborate. Why are you "spamming" and "shitposting"?

dz post_id=7934850 time=1463815135 user_id=15399 post_num=345]the amount of scum hunting and the reads you've given is so pitiful in comparison to the amount of posts you've made

dz post_id=7934851 time=1463815277 user_id=15399 post_num=346]And, still, no explanation for the "reads" you've given, after a full-blown criticism about how that sort of "spam" doesn't move the game forward.

*clap* *clap*

You're really sticking it to me by doing what you think is not-good-for-the-game just to make a point about your opinion on me.

You sure are a good player.

[Nachomamma8]

zakk is another good candidate for town.

Why? Do you just think that he wouldn't play the game this way as scum because it is both lazy as hell and anti-town so you can't imagine it being a route that he thinks would give him towncred?

[Nachomamma8]

indicate to me a townie who's trying to figure out the game and can't put their finger on why they feel certain ways about people. It does not read to me as scum trying to fake reads or trying to look like they're doing things. It looks like a window into an actual thought process that's going on.

I'm not really seeing what you're seeing here; I disagree pretty strongly that it was a window into Godz's thought process because there wasn't a thought process to be had, and I have seen scum say that they had reads that they couldn't explain before (and it was early enough in the game where people weren't really likely to rip on him all that much), and am not sure how that post is particularly far removed from that.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934980 time=1463822610 user_id=15399 post_num=353]As a side note, I really think Antihero isn't talking about his read on me because he's stalling in hopes that the question will go away without him having to answer it. I think he overstepped with a fake scum read on me and isn't adept enough to come up with a reason for it that seems legitimate. I think maybe he might be able to come up with some bullshit excuse for it after sleeping on it, but I think the reason he avoided doing so at the point he said it was because he was worried about how obvious it would be if he gave a bullshit reason without thinking it through.

I don't think that this is very likely to be the case, and I think that this is a pretty difficult point to argue when Kuribo had attacked you in 294, 298, and 302, and I mentioned my reasons for not liking it in 287; no matter how poor of a scum player Antihero was, I'm not sure that he would struggle to come up with a reason for scum reading you when the answer was already given to him.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7934986 time=1463823142 user_id=15399 post_num=354]Firstly, when he's willing to call, for example, spiffeh scum for (presumably) claiming town reads on zakk/camn (I say presumably because he never actually elaborates but he also never denied the scum read, so I'm going to interpret what I see), then how on Godz green earth could whatever reads he's holding onto be so weak that he can't talk about them?

I'm not sure what your point here is; you seem to be suggesting that Antihero can't have weak reads because of his approach to Spiffeh; I think that the reason why he was calling Spiffeh scum was because he thought that him calling zakk "never shoot town" was unreasonable at the point of the game he did, which is a perspective that only requires a scumread on Zakk to make sense.

dz post_id=7934986 time=1463823142 user_id=15399 post_num=354]Why can't he just... say the names of the people he's considering?

I'm not sure. Why do you think that he as scum is incapable of giving out a couple of fake reads as scum?

dz post_id=7934986 time=1463823142 user_id=15399 post_num=354]Also, with me, spiffeh and zakk included, he's got a fairly enormous number of reads that he thinks could be scum and a surprisingly small number of people he's mentioned a town read on.

I don't mind this. Why do you?

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935968 time=1463860303 user_id=15399 post_num=442]If the things prior to #330 were related to a scum read on me, then why was he talking about "policy execution" rather than a scum read, in your opinion?

I believe that the reason that he thought you were scum were based on 275, which was the post that kuribo and I both expressed dislike of. I believe that he referred to policy executing you has more for your "I agree/I disagree" series of posts more than anything else.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935976 time=1463860517 user_id=15399 post_num=444]

These posts is where the potential for toxicity came from

None of those posts would have happened if he explained his read and none of those posts necessitated further "toxicity" if he explained his read.

The would have/should have doesn't really matter; he felt he was being insulted, and generally a person's response to feeling insulted is insulting back, hence toxicity.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935983 time=1463860767 user_id=15399 post_num=446]I'm suggesting the opposite, actually.

That Antihero has to have strong reads thanks to his response to Spiffeh?
But he did have a strong read on Zakk and I'm not sure how that relates to him holding reads in his pocket?

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935983 time=1463860767 user_id=15399 post_num=446]I think he'd avoid it if he thought it would make him look worse, yes.

Why do you think that he thought that giving out a couple of reasonless reads would make him look worse? Why would he bring them up if he thought elaborating on them would make him look worse?

dz post_id=7935983 time=1463860767 user_id=15399 post_num=446]Why don't you? Do you think his approach to the game is a genuine one? Do you think he's more likely to come up with a long list of names he wants dead and a non-existent list of names he doesn't?

I think it's less what reads that he has and more what reads that he's willing to share; I think it's smarter in Kingmaker setups to be far more cautious about town reads than you should be in a normal game (since incorrect town reads are more likely to lead to scum kings which are horrible for town), and for some people, being more cautious is waiting for a little while before talking about those reads.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935976 time=1463860517 user_id=15399 post_num=444]

These posts is where the potential for toxicity came from

None of those posts would have happened if he explained his read and none of those posts necessitated further "toxicity" if he explained his read.

The would have/should have doesn't really matter; he felt he was being insulted, and generally a person's response to feeling insulted is insulting back, hence toxicity.

346 was hostile enough that had he directed it at me instead, we'd probably have had about 20 pages of shouting in the morning

It was blatantly toxic though; while I can see scum sneakily egging people on and denying it later, I can't really see scum blatantly egging someone on and denying it later unless it was part of their personality.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936001 time=1463861165 user_id=15399 post_num=453]Have you ever used "policy" to describe a scum read? Have you ever seen anyone use "policy" to describe a scum read?

I'm not the player to use "policy" descriptions in general, but I have been irritated enough with players that I've been scum reading where "policy" could be used to describe part of why I wanted them to die, if that makes sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Antihero, why did you hold off on elaborating on the back pocket reads earlier? I understand that you were trying to gauge whether there were good reads or not, but am not sure why that step in particular was necessary when expressing them most likely would have helped to strengthen the read and when expressing them didn't take away your ability to go back on them later.

[Nachomamma8]

Why is Brian Skies being town read?

He's exclusively talked about the king election

It's an easy conversation to hide behind to act like you're contributing when he's only cozying up to the potential kings for today

I'm not town reading Brian Skies, but I don't think talking about the king election when that's all that was happening is particularly alignment indicative.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho what are you trying to accomplish with this conversation?

I think that Godz is town, and I think that Antihero is town. I think that the chances of Godz changing his mind on Antihero without someone who is actually trying to talk to him about his points is heavily unlikely. I think that changing his mind here is a productive thing to focus on because changing his mind on that read will make him a more electable King whether for now or in the future and because I think that he's an aggressive enough player where him focusing elsewhere would be good for town. I also think that Antihero can get annoyed with that sort of thing as town and feel that he's less likely to play well when someone's railing against him in the way that Godz is.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936022 time=1463861823 user_id=15399 post_num=465]It's a subconscious thing. Scum players in general try to make as few perceived enemies as they can. Especially if he's not a particularly strong scum player in the first place, he'd want to not make enemies of players who are likely to get their way if they sense bullshit.

I don't think that this response meshes very well with your suspicion on Antihero for having more scum reads than town reads.

dz post_id=7936022 time=1463861823 user_id=15399 post_num=465]That's bullshit. There's no reason you cannot talk about reads - that doesn't lead to anything more than it does in a regular game unless you're acting on reads that you aren't very confident about, in which case that's your own fault for being inept. Talking about your reads isn't the same as acting on them and electing a king based on something not very strong...

I realized that my assumption here was probably wrong when I was rereading Antihero's earlier posts, hence asking him why he was holding back on reads earlier.

dz post_id=7936022 time=1463861823 user_id=15399 post_num=465]Up to the point where he said "policy execution", do you think it makes sense for him, scum-reading me, to say that after not mentioning anything related to a scum read on me if he was scum reading me?

As I've said before, the reason that he was scum reading you very likely has to do with 275.
Why would him explicitly stating why he thought you were scum make him later saying that he wanted a policy execute on you any better?

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936040 time=1463862234 user_id=15399 post_num=469]I doubt talking to me about my read on Antihero is going to make me change my mind when he continues to avoid doing anything I want him to do, just FYI.

Another reason I don't like him backing off when he did is that it gives him this smokescreen to hide behind because, unless someone else demands it, he can pretend he's ignoring me for "toxicity" reasons or something like that.

I think that as scum, he wouldn't shy away from addressing you since he could pad his push with a genuine dislike of you. I also think the way that Antihero addresses the game as a whole is more alignment-indicative than how he addresses you; even if he is scum and even if this is a strategy to avoid you specifically, he will still have to engage with those who have a more proven track record of reading him, and he will still have to fake scum hunting other places.

[Nachomamma8]

Godz vs Anti does not look like TvT at all Nacho.

Why do you say that?

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936047 time=1463862463 user_id=15399 post_num=472]Nachomamma8,

If you want me to see Antihero is town, then ask him these questions and see if he answers:

Where did your scum read on Godz come from? Could you go into detail about this?
Why are you claiming the zakk read is "meta-based" if you didn't have enough of a grasp of zakk's meta that you needed to ask a question about how he always acts?

If the questions are coming from someone else and he still chooses to avoid them, then he's doing what he says is bad for the game state to prove some point.

My intention is not to be your messenger; if, during our conversation, you bring up a point that I think is legitimate or I feel I can't properly answer, I'll ask him about it.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho I'm finding it very difficult to buy that you are engaging Godz like this to make him a more electable King.

It's not my intention to elect him in the near future, but I think that he's transparently town and I think that it will be extremely important in the late-game to elect kings who are town. This is not the main reason for me doing this.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho I'm finding it very difficult to buy that you are engaging Godz like this to make him a more electable King.

I want to know WHY he's willing to jump through those hoops to make someone else electable

I think that jumping through hoops to understand where people are coming from makes the game state better as a whole. I feel like the game is more fun when you don't believe like you're being ignored.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho what are you trying to accomplish with this conversation?

I think that Godz is town, and I think that Antihero is town.

I think that the chances of Godz changing his mind on Antihero without someone who is actually trying to talk to him about his points is heavily unlikely.

I think that changing his mind here is a productive thing to focus on because changing his mind on that read will make him a more electable King whether for now or in the future and because I think that he's an aggressive enough player where him focusing elsewhere would be good for town. I also think that Antihero can get annoyed with that sort of thing as town and feel that he's less likely to play well when someone's railing against him in the way that Godz is.

[Nachomamma8]

Spiffeh asked what I was trying to accomplish. That was my answer.
You asked why I was jumping through so many hoops in order to accomplish that, which got a different answer because it was a different question.

[Nachomamma8]

The line directly after, "make him a more electable King" implies that you have a vested interest in making him king

In making him a potential king. The more people town has that are electable, the greater the town's chances of winning; town needs to produce more competent kings than the scum can kill. Do you disagree with this?

You say it's because he's "transparently town," but I don't see it that way. Town? Maaaaaybe but not "transparently" so

He's a very strong townread of mine but he's not a player I see the scum killing off early.

So are you trying to convince him to back off Anti? Or trying to convince the rest of us Godz is town and make him "a more electable King?"

Making Godz a more electable King is less about convincing the rest of you that Godz is town and more about increasing the chances of hitting scum if elected; I wouldn't have called him transparently town if I didn't expect that he would be a universal townread when it mattered.

I think that my involvement in this argument will increase the chances he backs off Anti and will make him a better potential King; both of these things are inextricably linked.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936072 time=1463863310 user_id=15399 post_num=486]You're conflating two different things, so I don't really understand your point here.

You thought that Antihero could possibly be scum for holding back his scum reads because you thought that he might be trying to avoid making more enemies. You also thought that it was unnatural that Antihero had less scum reads than town reads because it was unnatural.

I believe that a scum player who was too afraid to mention names of people that he was scum reading because he was too afraid to make enemies would also be the type of player who would be the type of player who as scum would mention town reads more than they would mention scum reads since it would mean that they could give their genuine opinions on things and would also avoid making enemies. Does this make sense to you?

dz post_id=7936072 time=1463863310 user_id=15399 post_num=486]He claims he has more scum reads (or people he's suspicious of) than he's talking about,

which means he has a quite-large list of players he's suspicious of in comparison to players he's not

, and I don't think this is normal (especially this early in day one).

I don't think that the bolded is a fair interpretation of his "I have a couple more ideas of who to shoot" post. He had problems with about four people at that point in time; none of those problems were particularly significant (as evidenced by his Spiffeh read being entirely based on Spiffeh's zack!scum read and as evidenced by his Cakez read at the time being based on the negging on Axel point), which means that the reads were less explicit scum reads and more "people who have done things that I'm bothered by but don't really know why". I don't think having four people who he was uneasy with at the time was hugely abnormal, either; you had two scum reads at that point (and finding things off about two more people is not so ridiculous IMO) and just because he didn't state any town reads doesn't mean that he didn't have any.

dz post_id=7936072 time=1463863310 user_id=15399 post_num=486](he doesn't want to have to throw out names and find a potential excuse later for them)

I don't understand why he would say that he had more names if he didn't want to have to fake reasons for them. Why wouldn't he just say that he was scum reading zakk for the reasons he talked about and spiffeh for the townread on zakk?

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936137 time=1463864660 user_id=15399 post_num=498]The point is that I doubt he'd use that choice of words in the first place with a scum read on me, given what had taken place in the game at the time. And the point is that if he were scum-reading me, he would have stated so (possibly instead of) saying "policy execute", which has connotations of not caring about the person's alignment.

Policy execute implies that you want a person dead because they are annoying you more than you want them dead because of an opinion of your alignment; this game was early enough where it wasn't likely that Antihero had a very strong scum read on you at this point, so it's not all that unreasonable for Antihero's annoyance with you to outpace his scumread on you at that point.

I also think that, while I would very likely agree with you if someone else did this, this is an action that is well-within Antihero's meta: this page from Hope +1 is an example of Antihero's scumread on Wisdom late-game escalating into a policy read.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936150 time=1463865029 user_id=15399 post_num=500]Then speculating about things like "I think he thought this" without him explicitly saying so is meaningless. You're not going to convince me of anything. And if your aim is to convince me to look elsewhere, then this is pointless.

That's okay! From my end, it doesn't feel like you're dismissing my points for the sake of dismissing them, and that's enough for me to continue. I'm not just interacting with you because my intent is to convince you or bust; I'm listening to what you're saying and I'm going through and thinking about your points and I don't think that's ever a bad move to make.

[Nachomamma8]

You say that you won't elect someone to kill your scumreads in post 210. But then in 222 you state that the king you will elect will likely have similar reads to yours. I read that as having the same scum reads or mostly the same scum reads as you. So what were you trying to say in post 210?

I believe the optimal strategy in Kingmaker is to strip the king from all accountability and instead vote in Kings who are promising to vote your preferred lynch, and if they don't do exactly as they promise, kill them. I believe this because I believe that Kingmaker is a hard setup for town to play since they have even less of a voice in who gets lynched as usual, and as such, it's easier to lose interest and be apathetic which means that it's harder to find town reads in general. I also believe that Scum Kings can cause a lot of damage when kings; it's harder to hold people accountable for bad decisions than some players have argued.

However, I think that it's more fun to elect Kings and let kings be kings; in general, my plan will be to crown the people who I feel are having the best games; that means they need to be transparent to a certain degree (I don't know if they're having a good game if I don't know what their reads are), and that means they need to have good reasoning for their reads (I don't know whether someone has good reads or not without reasoning; if I'm electing someone because their reads match up with mine, then there's no reason why I shouldn't be campaigning for myself to get elected).

Does that make sense?

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936137 time=1463864660 user_id=15399 post_num=498]The point is that I doubt he'd use that choice of words in the first place with a scum read on me, given what had taken place in the game at the time.

"That choice of words" is meaning policy execute, correct? I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "what had taken place in the game at the time".

dz post_id=7936137 time=1463864660 user_id=15399 post_num=498]And the point is that if he were scum-reading me, he would have stated so (possibly instead of) saying "policy execute", which has connotations of not caring about the person's alignment.

This is the part that made me think that you thought it was scummy because he had a scumread on you and you thought escalating from a scumread to saying "policy execute" was scummy; the reason why I brought up that link was because Antihero specifically went from having a scumread on someone to saying that he was policy lynching them, which I thought was a similar choice of words and similar situation to here.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7935074 time=1463830580 user_id=15399 post_num=363]someone you think is town with good reads (reads that align with your own)

I want to elect someone who I think is having an abnormally good game. Reads that align well with my own is just something that you assume is happening since it's hard to believe that someone is kicking ass when they have reads that are the opposite of yours, but "similar reads to mine" isn't really the criteria I'm looking for, even though I know that what I'm saying doesn't make any sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes. I am currently voting Katsuki because, unlike Fate, he is actually making moves to scumhunt. Do you still stand behind your Fate vote?

I think that a fate that isn't scumhunting is more likely to hit scum than a Katsuki that is, though. So unless you're saying that you think Katsuki is substantially more likely town...

I don't think that Fate having a bad game is more likely to hit scum than Katsuki having a good game. I will never elect a player who doesn't feel like they're scum hunting, regardless of who they are.

[Nachomamma8]

I would love antihero dead tho

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Also it should probably be stated that, unless something big happens, Katsuki will probably execute me for largely personal reasons if elected king, so people should probably be aware of that

I don't think that this is true; if Katsuki planned on game throwing based on a personal grudge (or wanted to policy lynch because he thought having you alive decreased chances of town winning), I'm fairly sure that he would have taken some public digs at you by now. If you're referring to this because of AFB, I think that he hates you less than you think he does.

[Nachomamma8]

I kinda want to ask them if they have some pre-established drama. Antihero's response makes more sense if that's the case. Like "oh, we don't get along so I'm not going down this road again"

But Godz' immediate response of "get back here you lurker" followed by THE CASE THAT WOULDNT END doesn't feel town to me. It feels like he wanted an excuse to post a "solid" case. Although "get back here you lurker" almost feels town, the stuff around it doesn't. Especially saying "I don't think this is TvT."

Remember the scum theatre between me and Cowbell in that game a few weeks ago? Remember how fast Cow came up with a "case" on me for bullshit reasons, and how quickly it escalated? That's what it reminds me of.

I think their dislike of each other makes sense based on some of the digs they took at each other; I quoted Godz's piece earlier whereas Antihero probably offended him with the "policy execute" comment + "you act like you're above even trying" + "the only thing you've done is shitpost" etc., so it's not like this is coming from nowhere.

I think the case that wouldn't end is a pretty common end result when you feel insulted and you think the person who is insulting you is scum; some people try to bury them with cases (mastin), some person try to scream them dead (kuribo). I think the big difference between this and the Cowbell-Serene fight is that Godz is actually trying to push his case through based on its own merits whereas Cow tried to say that people should listen to him because if he was scum he would be bussing anyways and because he's great as town and of course he's right.

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7936602 time=1463874514 user_id=15399 post_num=516]Do you think it is normal behaviour (or even behaviour that had ever happened before) for someone who is scum reading someone else to not mention the scum read and instead say he wants that someone else lynched on policy?

I think it's normal behavior if the reasons they want them lynched are based more on policy than they are on a scumread.

[Nachomamma8]

Ok Godz is scum nvm. Execute this pls.

I don't think that it's particularly likely for Godz as scum to make that kind of post, especially if Antihero is town.

I'm not sure what to make of it, TBH. I've seen those two fight as TvT in other games before. I would say if I were to pick and choose, I'd lean more towards anti being scum as I don't think it was a bad push by godz.

Do you think that it's TvT or do you think that it's more likely that Antihero is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

I also have not explained my reads

Why is Godz being piled on for not doing so and not me?

The point at the time was that Godz attempted to explain his reads and the explanation was lacking.

Would he have offered that game up for meta though? Earlier he said "oh I just finished a scum game if you want to go read it"

Probably.
Someone who was in the game is playing here as well, so it's not like he is going to pretend that it doesn't exist, and it's not really unreasonable to assume that no one will read a past game even if you offer it up since no one does anyways. I mean even I have no intentions of following up on it <.<

[Nachomamma8]

KATSUKI:

My loyalty in you is wavering. Please remind me why you were once my one and only, or else I will begin campaigning for Kuribo, the reluctant KING OF THE PEOPLE.

[Nachomamma8]

Your Friday was awesome, but your Saturday was meh.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Kuribo

[Nachomamma8]

LOL nacho really is fucking SCUM


NOW

I MUST BE KING

FOR

REVENGE

FOR

GLORY

SPIFFEH

You've been asleep for years while I've been on the front line fighting. You do not currently possess the power to defeat my dragon punch, although I do note that you're coming along swimmingly.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho why don't you look in me in the goddamn eyes while I'm here

I'd expect you to be more pleased with a chance to town it up with me rather than avoid me knowing I won't let you out of my sight if you rolled scum again and trying to kill me off N1

I don't think that your perception of Antihero's emotional progression being off is on point but I'm pleased with the way that you've approached it, and I'm pleased that we both agree on Kuribo shining a special kind of light this game. I haven't yet seen a scumread from you that excites me.

[Nachomamma8]

You've been asleep for years while I've been on the front line fighting. You do not currently possess the power to defeat my dragon punch, although I do note that you're coming along swimmingly.

He beat the fuck out of me and DGB while you and Tammy called us town in Gumball


fate never sleeps, it only waits

He also called me scum in Gumball while calling me town in Camn's apartment, while I recognized him as town immediately and didn't budge even when Tammy told me to reconsider my faith in him.

[Nachomamma8]

The only thing anyone needs to remember about that game is that I endgamed Fate in it.

[Nachomamma8]

I would hazard a guess that after camntsuki's tunnel on Spiffeh in TTH's game that he-like Cakez- does not have confidence in their competence

Dirty.

[Nachomamma8]

I ignored my intuition until it was too late in Camn's, that was the real trigger. I'll say it again don't think you pulled one over on me or anything in camn

I don't think I pulled one over on you, I think that you were rusty and you let me coast for much longer than old Fate would have; Kanye replaced in and saw me exactly for what I was whereas you let me coast and coast and coast.

[Nachomamma8]

You've been asleep for years while I've been on the front line fighting. You do not currently possess the power to defeat my dragon punch, although I do note that you're coming along swimmingly.

There are endless lines up lines to fight on. If you go on thinking yours is the only battle going on you've already lost

I am present wherever anyone is fighting a battle that needs to be fought. I am present whenever someone is fighting a battle that they don't have the tools or the ability to win, but will inevitably win thanks to some mysterious force.

I am everywhere and nowhere, just as my mentor was before me.

[Nachomamma8]

What else was there to do

I wanted to coast right to the shoreline and have a fitting duel on the beach

You were overly focused on the destination and died during the journey. What a fitting lesson for one who is lost!

[Nachomamma8]

My heart and my brain stand united behind Kuribo king; would urge others to join me. I don't think Katsuki's head is in the game right now, I think Kuribo is having a good game and I think that Zen Kuribo will do great things on the throne. I understand that he said he wasn't willing to take on the kingship but I don't think that hurts his chances of doing great things.

Camn, Axelrod, Kagami?

[Nachomamma8]

People voting me:

Is it because you're concerned that Katsuki and / or Fate aren't town?

Or you don't trust their judgement?

Or you don't trust them to rule with the will of the people?

Orrrrrrrr do you just not want to pick sides between them?


Orrrrrrrrrr.....?

None of these.
I trust Katsuki and Fate just fine (more Fate than Katsuki at this point since Katsuki has stopped doing things at this point), but I feel better in how you're approaching the game.

[Nachomamma8]

His responses to others and to me do not look promising right now.

What did you dislike about how I approached you?

[Nachomamma8]

What?

If you're unhappy with the main king choices right now, who is your alternative? Do you think Kuribo would be a good choice?

[Nachomamma8]

But him asking to be King when he hasn't done anything worthy of being voted King raises my eyebrows and I think he's probably worried he's going to be lynched. He hasn't really stated a strong case on scumreading anyone and I don't see him as a serious candidate of being voted King today (mostly because I don't think he's done anything particularly townish and there are many other players in this game who will be considered before he would). It feels like he's doing it specifically to avoid death.

How does campaigning for him to be king make him more likely to avoid death when there's not a chance in hell that he gets voted in?

[Nachomamma8]

where he even implies he's a little scummy,

As I've said before, I didn't like Godz's 275 (probably the right post). I've liked his posting pretty consistently after that.

[Nachomamma8]

Wanting to make Godz a more electable king is complete bullshit

The more competent kings a town has, the better Town's chances of winning.

[Nachomamma8]

He really wants to prove that this long winded questioning of Godz is fruitful when it's really just busy work.

I focus on stuff other people don't really focus on as town and as scum, but I'm generally self-aware enough to realize when people will care about the things that I'm doing and when they won't. I wouldn't expect anyone to care about an exchange I'm having with a townread about another townread, especially when the exchange has lasted as long as it has.

[Nachomamma8]

If I die before I'm expecting to, my special snowflake townreads are kuribo, Fate, Antihero, Gaiden (per Kagami), Kagami, Godz, Spiffeh, BRO, and maybe Axelrod.
The only two shots that I'd be considering personally are Skybird/zakk.

[Nachomamma8]

even though I don't want to be king, nor have I made any indication (other than my most recent post) of who I'd shoot--- and even that post isn't a definitive list.

I don't care whether you want to be king or not; if you had a role-related reason for it, fine, but "I suck at Day 1s" just seems like a failure of self-awareness on your part; I think that you're engaged, I think that you are caring about reading people more than you usually do (calmer, viewing the game better), and I think you have good enough instincts where you'd take a good shot Day 1.

The poet in me also has a very deep appreciation for making zen Kuribo king of his Wonderland for Day 1, and I don't think that many choices are going to be able to beat that out.

[Nachomamma8]

Gaiden is a special snowflake. If you want to waste more time, review his town-games.

way to convince me

Kagami knows Gaiden well and has a decent track record of reading him well; this game saw an early correct reading of Gaiden, this game saw an early correct reading of Gaiden, this is a read that came much later, but ended up correct. I know that Gaiden doesn't exactly have the tendency to wow and blow people away with his openings, but Kagami's read isn't something you should ignore.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho wanna claim?

Or do anything else?

I'm not going to claim today, no.

I don't have much time so I'm not going to attempt a big readswall of any sort, but hopefully will have time to outline a couple of thoughts that I had before I go.

[Nachomamma8]

Gaiden-king would be so good it's painful that there's resistance there.

I agree that Gaiden would be a great choice if we had sufficient reason to fear heroes, but town heroes should be claiming, and a scum hero in a majority kingmaker setup is a sufficiently dumb enough role that I don't see reason to fear it.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you so confident Gaiden is town?

the interactions between the two of them have been absolutely bizarre

as most meta-interactions between players are (see: you and DGB).

[Nachomamma8]

dz post_id=7939090 time=1463971996 user_id=15399 post_num=731]

I did get something out of it.

Oh? What?

His response to me was blah. He didn't try and engage me on anything either. I don't see him scum hunting like I know he can. I'm leaning scum on him.

I haven't minded any of Skybird's posting so far up to this point; I don't think that it's her style to scumhunt to a significant extent in general and can see her engage people with theory-related questions to get her foot in the door. The part that I thought was disingenuous was the part where she acted like she got something out of my response to her; that seemed a response to Godz telling her that it was useless more than genuine opinion based on what I said to her.

[Nachomamma8]

TOWN heroes should be claiming?

There's no fucking way j can save you now Nacho

If they're about to be killed by a player they're townreading, yes.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, the last page is really dumb, but anti is pretty town. Backing out to make the game not toxic is a super town thing to do, especially from someone like anti

Also it should probably be stated that, unless something big happens, Katsuki will probably execute me for largely personal reasons if elected king, so people should probably be aware of that

Why would you think I'd execute you over personal reasons as oppose to thinking that you're scum?

And what would those personal reasons be in the first place?

Because reads are influenced by personal relationships, and the fact of the matter is that, to my recollection, you've never townread me. That's almost definitely tied to the fact that we don't get along.

Those personal reasons being that we've never had an interaction in any game or outside of a game that was positive, and the majority have been to some degree toxic.

And frankly I think other than the Antihero/Godz thing,

it hasn't been the shitstorm of shouting I half expected

I'm starting to think that the reason this game isn't super toxic is important.

The problem is though that I can't figure out the narrative that the lack of toxicity ties into.

These are all posts that I think BRO is more likelier to make as town than scum. As scum, he's more likely to pick apart logic and put his effort into more straightforward and understandable theories while as town he's more willing to wander down a couple of rabbit holes here and there.

There's no hard evidence here, but I haven't personally seen these types of posts when I've seen him as scum but I've seen a few decent examples of him doing it as town {Wicked, whatever that horrible game we hydraed in was}.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho the more you post the more I just want to see your flip to break this game open

If you use my flip to kill a townread I have proficiency in reading, I'll strangle you from the grave.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho has done himself no favors so yeah

Me getting lynched at this point isn't my fault.

[Nachomamma8]

Your main reason for thinking I'm scum based on caring about people being electable Kings is wrong; it's not your fault, but there's nothing I can do to change your mind about it. Your secondary reason for me not pushing scum reads is just how the game's fallen for me; I'm getting townreads easier than scumreads particularly because I'm giving some people space, but this isn't incredibly abnormal for me. There is nothing I can do to change that, either.

[Nachomamma8]

the day before????

what assholes

[Nachomamma8]

this game had so much potential for beauty, broseidon

[Nachomamma8]

if kuribo was king night 1, killed night 1, and then town won on his birthday

but you all had to fuck it all up

[Nachomamma8]

and for that you should be ashamed

[Nachomamma8]

there were more than just shovels