Newbie 1737 - Game Over

[goodmorning]

Hello all, I am your lovely IC. I am expected to help you learn to play the game, particularly in the context of this forum. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your theory questions truthfully.

That's right,

I will not lie to you

about theory.

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs". That's only somewhat true. Some newbies have played many a game of Mafia elsewhere. Besides this, experience counts against me as well: you all are able to look up my past games and see how I've played in them. I can't because most of you don't have any. So it's a fairly even split.

Some helpful Wiki pages:
Quick Guide to Mafia
Quick Guide to Mafiascum
A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia

And some terms:
Glossary
Commonly Used Abbreviations

I also want to get this out now so as not to interrupt gameplay later:

HELPFUL TAG TIME

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[post]0[/post]

will look like
0
and link you to that post.

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[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=68156]Newbie 1737[/url]

will look like
Newbie 1737
And link you to that url (this one is this game).

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[spoiler]OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING[/spoiler]

will look like

OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING

(highlight to read).

The code for a big spoiler is this:

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[spoiler=A SPOILER??]IT IS[/spoiler]

which looks like

Spoiler: A SPOILER??

IT IS

Some mods are fine with spoilering of REALLY BIG WALLS O' TEXT. Some are not. If in doubt, ask the Mod before you post.

/IC wall

[goodmorning]

Now that's done:

IC: Do threads normally have so many dropouts/replacements/etc. & take this long to start(took about a week for me to start playing iirc)?

Only Newbie games. People often forget they've asked to play or don't check back in time to pick up their role PMs.

Vote: oacenth

Also: hi kuror!

[goodmorning]

So everyone but platinum has a RV set,

I don't.

Wow, first days really are slow.

We have two weeks, so yes!

So we have RV going on, but I think discounting RQ completely(while understandably a go-to for some) may not be the ideal approach, either, so long as the questions aren't too vague/unrelated & can be ultimately used to help get the job done. That being said, here's a question for anyone curious, & I'll answer as well if people think it's worth the time: How would you describe your own personality/default disposition, & what we should expect from you in terms of your content(scumhunting or otherwise)?

Personality: I try to be very patient/nice in Newbie games. I make jokes whenever I can. I'm frequently distractable. I don't often beat around the bush.
Content: Expect me to be a little reticent early D1. I usually post single long quote-striped posts rather than multiple shorter ones. I won't necessarily ask a lot of questions, though it's within the realm of possibility. I often base reads on tone. I don't like being "Town Leader." My favourite role is VT.
Approach to the Game: It's a game. I'll play to win, but I won't take it too seriously.

Oh & thanks @ goodmorning!

That's my job!

@goodmorning hi. have we played before? Last time I played mafia was ages ago so i don't remember too many things and players. but your name does sound familiar.

You were in my very first Newbie scumgame.

(Recent terminology change: people have begun using 'NAI' instead of 'Not Alignment-Indicative'.)

Oh, also, how you quote from multiple posts/people?

I copy/paste.

I'm pretty sure the Q+ button is supposed to be functional for that but I've never properly managed to use it so I'm afraid I can't help you there. (Lmk has detailed how it's supposed to work so hopefully that helps?)

Oh by the way, I know edits are like WHOA bad for obvious reasons. But what about editing for typos? I'm not sure how the modding works on these forums but yeah, figured I'd ask in case it's a possibility(I know on other forums mods can see edits made/original vs updated content and so on, so... who knows, it's worth asking(also yeah I know game mod does not = forum mod, but for all I know there's a system in place here? shrug)).

Short answer: it's not possible.

Don't worry about typos, anyway. I'll probably break at least 3 tags this game.

Since you mentioned meta-ing people: I suggest checking my IC games only; I have a really different playstyle as an IC than anywhere else. It's still a solid sample size: this is my 53rd-ish Newbie game and only 5 or 6 of those WEREN'T as an IC.

--

I (surprisingly) have 2 townreads and 2 scumreads so far. There's not a whole lot of clues to them in my posts yet because I've mostly ICposted, but if anyone would like to guess who they are and why I read them the way I do, I might be convinced to talk a little more about them. Multiple guessers are encouraged!

[goodmorning]

I (surprisingly) have 2 townreads and 2 scumreads so far. There's not a whole lot of clues to them in my posts yet because I've mostly ICposted, but if anyone would like to guess who they are and why I read them the way I do, I might be convinced to talk a little more about them. Multiple guessers are encouraged!

Youre scumreading me
Because i play fluffy
..but i cant think of anyone else actually.
im actually surprised theres about 40 posts in 2 days, especially considering the game just started. meh.

Nope! Interesting guess though.
I'm a little surprised there aren't more.

@goodmorning, More posts from you would be nice. Everybody seems to be very NULL for me except for Galagya which is 1% town and 99% null.

I'm sure!
There was one big clue in my last post but nobody seems to have noticed it :[

--

3.5 TR/2 SR now!

[goodmorning]

There was one big clue in my last post but nobody seems to have noticed it :[

Wait, there was? Disregarding the IC Q&A stuff, the only thing in your last post would be

I (surprisingly) have 2 townreads and 2 scumreads so far. There's not a whole lot of clues to them in my posts yet because I've mostly ICposted, but if anyone would like to guess who they are and why I read them the way I do, I might be convinced to talk a little more about them. Multiple guessers are encouraged!

I can't exactly take a guess from that. Either I'm not looking hard enough, or you're really good at hiding clues.

I'll quote it:

So everyone but platinum has a RV set,

I don't.

--

I wonder why did goodmorning say

(Recent terminology change: people have begun using 'NAI' instead of 'Not Alignment-Indicative'.)

I mean it doesn't fit as a reply to korur0 post, the more I think about it, I feel it's out of place

kuror hasn't played in about a year and a half; people have started using that term over the last ~4-5 months, and it's usually not immediately apparent what they mean when they say it. It's 100% IC-related.

Post edit: 3.5 townreads and 2 scumreads?

Yes.

Hey sorry for not posting guys, I havent really got any ideas on any reads yet, so Im unsure on what to post.
So im just interested to know what other people have to say, or what else people have found strange? (minus what has already been stated)
Also, if anyone has any questions for me go ahead.

@goodmorning you say you have some reads already, can we have some details behind your reasoning?
But Im going to guess that you have either/both Platinum_Fleece and nmego12345 as a town read?
(My guess being because after they both posted a few times your town reads went from 2 to 3.5.

Eventually!
(nmego is indeed the +1)

Question: Answer the question you posed to everyone else.

--

Also, what kuror said about activity.

[goodmorning]

Well for starters, I have to say, that so far I am reading Nmego as town, the main resoning behind this was the effort he put into trying to decode goodmorning's post to try and find the clue, I feel like its active scumhunting and a scum wouldnt have put that much effort into it, correct me if im wrong here anyone?

@goodmorning:
I must admit Im rather confused as to why you didnt just outright state what reads you had for people? What was the reason for this?

Well, uh, my sig.

It's two-pronged:
1. It makes people think.
2. Their answers give me an idea of their perspective on the game.
(3. I don't want to get sheeped.)

heres a tip: if everyone says gm is scumreading them and townreading the dude above him/her, then we can find it easier.

that's totally cheating tho

By random questioning I wasn't assuming he meant questions like playstyle questions and stuff like that. I'm assuming that he meant asking questions like "so who do you think is scum and why?" and then comparing later on to see if that person's reads have some consistency or are erratic.

Read consistency is VERY VERY overrated.

--

I like that I actually POINTED OUT THE CLUE and still nobody's at all interested. You shouldn't just be interested in what I think, you should be interested in

why I think it

.

[goodmorning]

@goodmorning:
Why do you feel it is necessary to point out that you didnt have a RV in 39?

Also Im not sure if its because im new, but Im not quite sure why it is a clue and why it is important? Can you please explain?

Because I DID have a VOTE. (But not a RANDOM one.)

@goodmorning: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you scumreaded her because you didn't like the fact that she'd rather wait to see what people say instead of asking questions and generating discussions herself. Am I on the right track?

Sort of. My initial scumread was based on her coming in and saying exactly what the people above her said. Currently I also don't like the small amount of meaningful content. That could all just be Newbie uncertainty, though.

If Oacenth is a correct guess that still leaves another mafioso and unstated scumread. It's too early to get proper reads on people, but I were to suggest a pair for Oacenth at this point I would think it's maybe Dongempire. Oacenth started her random vote saying

Hey everyone,
I live in England, so that's my timezone.
And

i'll just chuck a random vote

, VOTE: Dongempire

Dongempire voted her back, and then when she got to lynch three Dongempire suddenly scrambled to unwagon off of her, mistaking that she was one away from lynching.

That's actually kind of interesting, but it's a little early for associatives before flips. Also DE's not the second scumread.

Assuming my train of thought about why she would scumread Oacenth, my best guess for her other scumread might be LmkGuy who didn't exactly answer Galagya's question. But I'm not confident with that answer cause personally that's kind of a weak reason.

I do have some slight weirdfeels on Lmk but not enough to call him a scumread, or even half of one really.

--

I also want to hear what all of your reads are, let's not get too wrapped up in mine!

[goodmorning]

@platinum: You're not wrong; I typically encourage people to share all their reads all the time. That said, I mentioned this particular quirk of mine in answer to Galagya (39): "Expect me to be a little reticent early D1."
I mean, do as I say, not as I do?

One thing to remember as we progress: "pro-Town" and "anti-Town" don't correlate super well with "Town" and "Scum".

RE: nmego: It's a tiny bit the effort, at least early in the game when there's nothing else to go on, but mostly it's their perspective on the game that's given me the townread. Also the paranoia. There's some decent-looking paranoia there.

[goodmorning]

Okay, we know that you think nmego is town because of his active scumhunting
Maybe you had read kuror0 scummy because of his wishy washy responses to platinum,
and in exchange townread platinum for questioning kuror and actively partaking in the town game.

Sort of;
Nope;
Basically, yes!

@Galagya: You and Raddish were two of my initial reads, yes.
Do you have any reads yourself?

I can honestly say, I completely understand everyones reasoning for thinking I am scum (which im not). I am just just new to the game and I now understand the importance of being more active so I shall try to be. I just find that if im am not confident with anything I find out of place then I dont mention it, but now I will, no matter how it makes me look. As Galagy said I should play to win.

Good! And remember, some of us here have a lot of experience reading Newbies. If you're Town and post often enough it'll show through.

@goodmorning: You say your vote was not random, but when you had voted in 13 I had only introduced myself and no one had really started any conversations yet. So how did you find what I had said in post 7 scummy? And I would still like to see some proper explanations for your reads.

You'll find the explanation for that in 69 and one on nmego in 71!

At first I wasn't thrilled with gm move to claim she had reads and hide them, but it has helped a lot to get info from some players, so if it was the initial intention that was a good move.

I've been trying to find the right balance with keeping close-lipped for YEARS. I'm still not quite there, but this is much closer. (Originally, it was inspired by [N1308.)

Goodmorning I need confirmation on something
You're saying you got 2 scumreads right? Let's call them A and B
Do you mean by that that you think that 50% A and B are scum partners though
or 50% A is a scum and 50% B is a scum.

A is Scum and B is Scum. I don't do associatives before flips.

@Goodmorning Is scumreading people based on their answer to "What's your playstyle" A viable thing to do in mafia?

Almost never, but it depends on the situation.

(You should probably consider using spoiler= tags for your longer ISOs, if/when you do them.)

[goodmorning]

it

is

too early to get proper reads,

It's never too early to have accurate and correct reads, even if you're not 100% sure where they're coming from. I once caught Scum within 10 posts - and good Scum, too.

Oacenth, what do you think of kuror0 and goodmorning alignment?

Nmego12345, I'm curious to hear why you're singling out a kuror0 and goodmorning as a mafia team.

THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY

Goodmorning

- I was fine with Goodmorning witholding her readings at first to promote discussion. ...but I’m not happy that goodmorning stated that she had multiple reads on people so early in the game, and I found her reasoning weaker than it maybe should have been with such an assertion. But otherwise I read her as town.

RIGHT IN THE CREDIBILITY!

Look, you're not going to be able to write a 10-point case on someone who's got 3 posts. They're (/have been) strong reads, and I'd be willing to bet on 3.5 of the 5.5 being right (I already have an inkling which 2 might be wrong), but I can't really articulate "I've seen Newbies, and this falls more in line with my experience of Town than Scum" without being asked "how so?" and I can't answer that except with this metaphor:
It's like being blindfolded and given 4 different sorbets to taste, except they're all various berry flavours, and you have to guess which is which. Maybe you get strawberry on the first bite; maybe it takes you a much longer time to separate the raspberry from the blackberry. Eventually you'll get them all, because you know what fruit tastes like.

As for the rest of the game. Lets keep in mind that even though GM is the IC and is the one who was/is most actively scum hunting, it doesn't make him automatically town. With this in mind, I am town-leaning GM, but just want to make sure that we all are aware that at this stage, anyone could be scum. Also, can we please not all just look for what reads GM posts? I get that he is the IC but that doesn't mean his reads are going to be right. I think instead of focusing on his reads, we should be forming our own opinions.

I mean, I said that last bit already.

But yes.

(Sorry about the rest, hope everything else is OK)

--

@platinum: There are 11 days left in the Day; I highly advise that you chill.

--

@Galagya: nmego wasn't one of my original four, if that helps. The plus .5 was DE, entirely for frankness. As much as I rely on tone for reads, it's not necessarily good enough in all cases.

I'm very likely to switch votes to original scumread #2 on or before Saturday, both because Oacenth is looking less scummy and because my original 2nd is looking more scummy.

RE: 96/97: Which push are you referring to? If you mean the "I have reads" thing; that's genuine. I never pretend to have more reads (or "reads") than I actually do; it's not good play, for a lot of reasons.

--

Semicolons!

p-edit: I'm not outing my 2nd original sr until I vote them. I'll do a write-up of the 3.5 TR in the morning, though, and maybe talk a little bit about the emergence of Lmk while I'm at it.

[goodmorning]

[i just started comparing the strengths of my original reads to the us women's gymnastics team??? SEND HELP QUICK]

[goodmorning]

it

is

too early to get proper reads,

It's never too early to have accurate and correct reads, even if you're not 100% sure where they're coming from. I once caught Scum within 10 posts - and good Scum, too.

I meant because it's day 1 so we have little info to go on, but fair enough. You have more experience at this than I. I'll still look forward to that post where you explain your original reads though. (Not outing your second pick for at least another day or two makes you look more scummy in my opinion. It's not really helping anyone but yourself.)

Yeah, but it's helping me a lot. It means I can see if anyone else independently comes to the same conclusion (instead of just sheeping), and I can see if SR2 continues to behave scummily while not knowing they're under suspicion.

Oacenth, what do you think of kuror0 and goodmorning alignment?

Nmego12345, I'm curious to hear why you're singling out a kuror0 and goodmorning as a mafia team.

THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY

Well,

isn't

is an odd question that came out of nowhere?
Oh wait, was Nmego12345 asking just about their alignment's in general, or them working as a mafia team? Because I had been reading it as the second until just now...

I'm inclined to think the latter, though I wouldn't presume to answer for someone else.

RE: 96/97: Which push are you referring to? If you mean the "I have reads" thing; that's genuine. I never pretend to have more reads (or "reads") than I actually do; it's not good play, for a lot of reasons.

I meant now that many (if not everyone) has shared their readings and we have more info on people, has your stance changed on anyone, and why?
-
Also, that metaphor would have been hilarious.

Slightly. I'll get into it when I do reads. It's probably going to have to wait until I get home though. HW ran long.

@nmego 105: I ignored it because I think those guesses were all addressed in the post I was writing? I'm doing reads today anyway.

-Seems some people are ready to sheep gm reads and have been preparing for a while.

I'd noticed.

@nmego 108: It was called Shadows and Lights, a LT. I was a hydra. I'll go dig it up later.

That Raddish went from "what do you think of them" to "do you think they're scum together".

I'll actually probably explain that when I do reads, because life is weird.

[goodmorning]

...I can see if SR2 continues to behave scummily while not knowing they're under suspicion.

Btw this second part is basically exactly what I predicted in my last post. So basically because of the potential for someone doing this, I argued it's suspicious for a person to keep pushing for reads anyway. Again, curiosity is one thing, but... yeah eventually it just looks like pushing. & not pushing for the sake of the town/finding scum. Pushing so a person can get more info and work with it. & not just knowing how GM reads them, but knowing everyone they read and why. It makes it so they can know more. After all, they already know alignment... so when a person seems to push more for deeper knowledge that may or may not be town

to the extent that they ignore all else

, yeah, that's going to make alarms go off for me.

You should go look at the Newbie game I referenced earlier; you might find it of interest.

But idk why you're going after nmego for this when Raddish and platinum are both much more guilty of it. That's weird.

That Raddish went from "what do you think of them" to "do you think they're scum together".

Again, last post addressed this already, but: I think this is simply a misunderstanding. Unless I'm missing something? I dunno. I took the initial post saying "alignment" as like, scumteam, not a separate alignment... again hope this makes sense, & sorry if I'm confusing lmao. I suck at communicating sometimes. FFFF... again dude people if I can change something to make the way I present posts better overall/easier to understand, please let me know how??

Looked it up again, and they said exactly, "Oacenth, what do you think of kuror0 and goodmorning alignment?" So yeah, the grammar does imply "/A/ kuror0/GM alignment" more than not in my mind. Matter of opinion, I think. But I guess you could argue otherwise... just, my vote is that their post wasn't really outstanding, & they just read it differently tbh.

I think if you add an 's after "goodmorning" and an s after "alignment," you'll get closest to the spirit of the post.

GM

, I just went back through and reread your "mystery reads" from the POV of you being scum, & I was pretty surprised.

Can you explain why you are choosing to withhold information while simultaneously giving sporadic updates that are nuanced enough that many people could fit into the space(scumread #2) you've created with ease...? It looks like a set up, basically.

People have accused me of this before. It's hard to explain properly, but the way I play as Scum includes scumhunting the exact same way I do as Town; I scumread the same people for the same reasons as either alignment, basically. Like I said in 99, I don't make up reads.

Also there're really only 2 people who could possibly fit into that slot given what I've said about everyone so far, and anyone who knows me well would know why the one it isn't was unlikely to be it. If you remind me, I can come back and analyze this when I get home as part of the reads blockbuster thing.

Ok first thing I'm wonderong is there a hydra in this game? I noticed sometimes Galagya addressed a player as 'they' ex. "Looked it up again, and they said exactly, "Oacenth, what do you think of kuror0 and goodmorning alignment?" which I think it is something coming from a player and not several players asking the same. So if there is a hydra around and I didn't know please enlighten me. If it is just poor article management then I encourage Galagya to try to be more precise.

Hydrae aren't allowed in Newbies. "They" is commonly used as a substitute for "it" (i.e., when the player has no set pronoun). This is for connotation reasons.

@Raddish: You could try repeating yourself again; maybe I'll suddenly change my opinion after the fifth time!

p-edit: pretty good, actually; Newbies get replaced A LOT.

[goodmorning]

So I'll go down the list (and comparing to the USWGT is actually going to be helpful from a metaphorical standpoint so clearly I'm a 2am genius):

nmego:

RE: nmego: It's a tiny bit the effort, at least early in the game when there's nothing else to go on, but mostly it's their perspective on the game that's given me the townread. Also the paranoia. There's some decent-looking paranoia there.

nmego is my Simone Biles read: Biles was the obvious favourite in the Olympics, and this read is the obvious favourite to be proved right. Since I said the above, nmego continues to post from the same towny point of view and also ask some solid questions on occasion.

2SR:
This is the Aly Raisman read - as in, the obvious second favorite to be proved right. There's a pretty consistent pattern of worrying behaviour from my 2SR, which I've briefly touched on in my posts and will try to remember to cite when the weekend rolls around.

Oacenth:

@goodmorning: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you scumreaded her because you didn't like the fact that she'd rather wait to see what people say instead of asking questions and generating discussions herself. Am I on the right track?

Sort of. My initial scumread was based on her coming in and saying exactly what the people above her said. Currently I also don't like the small amount of meaningful content. That could all just be Newbie uncertainty, though.

Oacenth is Gabby Douglas: initially strong, but declining with time. I'm not really even scumreading Oacenth('s slot) anymore. Once she actually started posting, the contributions she managed looked more consistent with Town than Scum.

platinum:
This read is Laurie Hernandez: pretty underrated and will quite possibly be overlooked at some point in the game.
Here's why I townread him:
-A lot of willingness to interact with others
-Managed to post his own reads [partially thanks to nmego but still] with reasonable justifications
-Willingness to be noticed/make pushes early game
-Some tone stuff.

Galagya:
Madison Kocian. Strong but really one-dimensional.
I townread Galagya for a lot of pretty Town-motivated-looking posts.
One-dimensional because they might only look Town-motivated, and the signal:noise ratio is a little suspect.

Bonus: Lmk:
I felt weird about him early on, and his absence didn't help that, but his reasons were good and his readslist screams TOWN TOWN TOWN to me so.

[goodmorning]

Whoa, totally forgot you said you live in Australia and was super weirded out for a minute.

[goodmorning]

(Why else do you think I chose the name 'goodmorning'? oh god, i threw

so many exclamation points in this too

)

[goodmorning]

@platinum: 124.

I use this time to say I have a lot of trouble with that list because bottom reasoning is something bulletproof. All the alignments are justified with stuff like: " post from the same towny point of view", "the contributions she managed looked more consistent with Town than Scum", "Managed to post his own reads", "a lot of pretty Town-motivated-looking posts. This is enhanced and pretty worded gut reads for me, nothing you can really work on. I guess I like to have more logical reasons which you can backtrack and not this "Hey, I think this guy is alignment because I feel it".

I mean, the Oacenth and Galagya ones are a bit gut, but "this post comes from a Town perspective/has Town motivations" is categorically NOT A GUT THING.

Also, it is still page 6, and it's a lot more than anyone else has got - including you.

GM:

I do think it's kind of weird that you townread me at this point in the game because there seems to be paranoia around me. While it may just be that you're a more experienced player & know better, it could also be because you

already know I'm town

. Also, I will try to find & check out the game you mentioned. A direct link is helpful, so if you already posted it, awesome! If not, you don't have to, but I'd love it if you did, too. & thanks~ (unless you're misleading me in which case you suck)

Oh, I'm plenty paranoid of you. Did you miss the bit where I said you might only

look

Town?
But I also think you're Town so far despite that.

Link is in 84.

--

p-edit: @Raddish: p-edit stands for either "post-edit" (like a PS) or "preview-edit" (an edit made when a new post pops up on the preview screen before you post your post), depending on who you ask.

[goodmorning]

It's been over 24 hours since anyone posted in this game. This is NOT CONDUCIVE to my SR2 reaction thing.

Vote: Raddish

This is it. Discuss.

Or don't, because if you guys aren't going to care about the game then I guess I'm not either.

[goodmorning]

I was in a hydra (two or more players playing in a single slot). I think we were SensualKoala? That's not the Newbie game I meant, though. The Newbie game was N1308, which I linked earlier this game. Shadows and Lights was a LT.

Your reaction to my above post is interesting.

[goodmorning]

@Lmk: Shortly.

My reaction? ...What reaction? How I didn’t really comment on your vote when I knew it was coming? How I was looking for your old game because I want to know how to play better? How I keep asking for people to answer my questions when they aren’t? My other observations in the post?

The lack thereof. You knew it was coming? I don't recommend that game as a showcase for good play; I'll see if I can't come up with some better ones. If they're not here, they're not here; it is a (holiday) weekend after all. I might go observation singular on that.

Ohh, how do you check activity overview?

It's in the bottom right corner, just below the page numbers.

[goodmorning]

I've

technically

played before but only once, as a kid irl, and I had no idea what was going on. So I'm basically a total newbie. I've read up on it, but honestly, it seems like particularly the online version is something that you can get better at but not without experience, & in ways not even consciously.

Also, I really want to see more content from you,

Wolf

. In fact, I'd love you to vote. You gave scumreads, but between GM & myself, which would you pick? Throw that vote down, yeah? Either or, it'd be much appreciated.

The combination of these two posts is a great example of why I'm townreading Galagya despite the paranoia.

Oh & UNVOTE: , coz, well, should be obvious.

And this post combined with the previous is a great example of why I understand the paranoia on Galagya.

@DE: Raddish

is

playing it on the safe side, and that's some of what I scumread there, but the biggest thing is her approach to the game. I see that specifically in her approach to me, because I'm a little bit self-centred, but it's no less valid for that:
Raddish has consistently tried to undermine me without coming straight out and attacking me. That almost always says Scum.

[goodmorning]

Besides looking up past Scummies threads and seeing who won for "best Town" and "best Scum," I can recommend the following ones I was actually in off the top of my head:
Town:
Author Mafia - a multiball game in which the Town did an astounding job. (May be hard to read owing to all posts being in the character of authors.)
M262 - Wisdom was very good in this one. His gamesolving is bomb.
N1326 - I was bad in this one and everyone else dragged me with them kicking and screaming.
N1458, N1565 - I was good in this one and dragged everyone else with me kicking and screaming.

Scum:
M137: Less Pressure - Tbh this one is more bad Town than good Scum iirc but it was a fun time nonetheless.
MT1520 - Setup worked against the Town a little bit but Scum won perfectly so.
O547 - I replaced in in LyLo, I think; I don't know if any of the rest of it is worth reading but iirc the LyLo probably is.
N1487 - I learned a really good lesson.


Also, here's the Shadows and Lights link. This is also the game I link to whenever people accuse me of procrastinating only as Scum.

--

I have some more things to say about this game; I'll be back shortly.

[goodmorning]

@Wolf:
1. Please provide examples of Galagya overdefensiveness.
2. Effort isn't indicative of alignment.
3. What specifically do you like about Lmk?
4. What makes you so sure DE isn't lying about having written one?

[goodmorning]

DE they are trying

[goodmorning]

So besides the gut ones could you explain better why you got those town reads. maybe I'm missing something but with that explanation it feels it is coming out of thin air and I can't follow your thoughts with only "this post comes from a Town perspective/has Town motivations", if you could explain further that would be helpful.

OK, so when I say "this post comes from a Town perspective" that can mean a lot of things, but mainly what it means is that I put on player X's shoes, pretend I'm TownX and ScumX, and see if one makes a lot more sense than the other. Obvious "Town perspective" tells include (but are not limited to):
- belief that Scum are a bunch of absolute morons
- belief that people they townread are more likely to have 100% accurate reads
- overwillingness to trust people with high activity
- confbias
- concern about appearance

"Scum perspective" tells include (but are not limited to):
- 'keeping options open'-type posts
- strong tunnels
- concern about appearance

When I say "this post has Town motivation," what I mean is that the post looks like the person posting it is being purposefully pro-Town. I also look at whether they look like they're being genuine in that.

If that helps.

--

@boring: Welcome! (I am not very careful.)

@Raddish: You're welcome!

--

@GM:

Where is the post you made explaining your read on Skiddish? I'm dumb & can't seem to find it even after checking your ISO. Coz I had them read as town, yet you seem convinced otherwise. I feel like I'm missing a lot, so... yeah, would be appreciated!

I touched on the more easily explicable parts of it in 156.

DE they are trying

2. Effort isn't indicative of alignment.

I'm not saying it makes them Town, I'm saying you were a little harsh for this early in the game.

@Wolf:
1. Please provide examples of Galagya overdefensiveness.
2. Effort isn't indicative of alignment.
3. What specifically do you like about Lmk?
4. What makes you so sure DE isn't lying about having written one?

1. 20. Yes not a good example.
2. No it isn't, and that was also what i was trying to say. Effort is however indicative of how a player is playing.
3. Mainly him trying to provoke activity with lack of it.
4. Nothing really. It is possible that he is specifically because if he did write something he should be able to remember what he wrote. But

if

he did in fact write it it would suck.

1. If 20 isn't a good example (I agree), can you provide a better one?
3. Can you rephrase this? I don't get it.
4. You'd be surprised.

@goodmorning - do you really think SR is the best lynch right now? Like, if they were about to be hammered right now, would you encourage it, or would you unvote?

I do think Raddish is the best lynch, if we

had

to lynch RIGHT NOW.
But we don't have to lynch RIGHT NOW, and I wouldn't encourage any lynch at this stage of the game.

_{Note to self: start keeping side notes.}

[goodmorning]

It's a bit of both.

--

I've also just noticed that boring's reads are... a bit boring.

[goodmorning]

That's much less boring.

[goodmorning]

Well, somewhat less boring, anyway.

[goodmorning]

The only scum note I made on Platinum so far is that he agreed with Oacenth’s request to goodmorning to reveal her readings, even though she clearly noted that she’d share them once someone tried to guess at them.

@Goodmorning, I would like an official count of what your reads were, why, and what your reads are right now.

An interesting juxtaposition.

@goodmorning: What does her lack of a reaction say about her to you?

It could say one or more of the following:
- That she doesn't know how to react to it (doesn't know how Town would react to it)
- That she's not concerned by it
- That she doesn't have an answer

@DE: it's a neeewwwbbbiieee gaaaaaaaammmme

p-edit: oh. i didn't notice the newb card being played in that post before. huh.

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: IC @boring

@goodmorning - This is my last game as an official newb, so I might as well take advantage of having an IC around.

I've found that I have three issues that get in my way of good reads. I automatically equate low participation/effort, primary reliance on AtE, with scum, when I know, logically, that things come up IRL, and that some people are more emotive than others. I also have a bit of an OMGUS reflex.

(For example, I'm trying to ignore kuror0's low activity, and not jump straight to "she's lurking, she must be scum!")

Alternatively, I see that many experienced players have developed the habit of always relying on site or personal meta in scumhunting. For example, I've seen statements equating indecisive behavior for scummy, when we all know that individuals have varying levels of confidence in a given situation.

Do you have any tips for cutting through the muck? Or is this something that can only be reinforced with time and experience?

I mean, I'm still learning all the time, so feel free to keep asking at any point [but not about ongoing games because that would be cheating].

Mostly, your three issues are the kinds of things that either A. you'll get better at ignoring with practice or B. you'll start to collect meta on people's baseline levels of effort/emotion/OMGUS. Or both.

RE: Indecisiveness: Here in the West, especially America, we've been trained to think that consistency is "good."
Actually, though, someone being too consistent is almost certainly lying - he's keeping his story straight. Some inconsistency is a good thing; not only does it show someone not worrying about being believed, it also shows someone willing to synthesize evidence and change his mind if the evidence dictates such.
Too much inconsistency, though - think fence-sitting, flip-flopping, wishywashiness - goes back to being a bad thing. In Mafia it can be used by Scum to play the opportunistic game.

If that makes sense.

No I was fine with Goodmorning having reads, what I wasn't happy with her claiming to have so many reads on people

that early

in the day, and (in my gut) I found the reasoning weaker than I would have liked when someone claims that they're certain on that many reads.

How do you know that the sorbet you're blindfoldedly eating is the raspberry and not the blackberry?

This is why I am scumreding Map wolf. His posts dont really contribute much other than one sentence defenses of himself, followed by some other meh statement. The whole 'i myself believe I am town....' is just a shit statement to make as a town player in my opinion. I think it was GM who said early on in the day that the best way to show you are town is just by posting and your town will show in your posts. Wolf/oce for me has not done this. While he does make posts, his town does not show in these posts.

Hypocrisy isn't necessarily a scumtell.
I currently read Wolf as "newb being near-universally scumread and focusing on his wagon to the exclusion of all else," which is slightly more likely to come from newbTown than newbScum.

[goodmorning]

Well, no, it's not very good play, so I wouldn't imagine you would play it that way.
To say that I think Wolf is Town would be stretching.
If she flips Town I reassess. Now's not really the time for that though.
To say that I think Galagya is Scum would be patently untrue.

Why are so you interested in who I'm scumreading besides Raddish? That's the one that's relevant at present.

[goodmorning]

Sorry for the delay! I was literally in the process of moving irl(still am, but am currently at new place with internet & have some free time today).

I have a couple points to make and things to answer. I'll get on that today, no worries.

You can always go V/LA [Vacation/Limited Access] when things like this happen! Just @Mod it in bold with the ending date, and then you don't have to worry about it.

Well, no, it's not very good play, so I wouldn't imagine you would play it that way.
To say that I think Wolf is Town would be stretching.
If she flips Town I reassess. Now's not really the time for that though.
To say that I think Galagya is Scum would be patently untrue.

Why are so you interested in who I'm scumreading besides Raddish? That's the one that's relevant at present.

Just curious to see where you stand and your opinions on some other players. Also trying to further understand your opinion/vote on skid

I think my opinions on most every newbie are clear by now. I don't see how "what if she flips town" helps you understand my vote.

[goodmorning]

@kuror: You might find the top of 206 interesting.

[goodmorning]

@kuror: Only that I don't really have any.

[goodmorning]

this wolf wagon is bad and y'all should feel bad


@Lmk: "What if she flips Town" implies it's a little late for that.

But she won't.

[goodmorning]

@Wolf: try and do some scumhunting please. Or townhunting. Something. A new readslist?

@boring: Wolf is asking why you're voting Raddish NOW based on a post from a while ago.

--

PS: Can someone remember who had a vague scumread on nmego early on? I don't want to reread the thread just now but I think I may be onto something.

[goodmorning]

!!!!!!!! that's what I thought !!!!!!!!

[goodmorning]

re: your readslist: can you be more specific?

[goodmorning]

@ Goodmorning

:

Spoiler:

No I was fine with Goodmorning having reads, what I wasn't happy with her claiming to have so many reads on people

that early

in the day, and (in my gut) I found the reasoning weaker than I would have liked when someone claims that they're certain on that many reads.

How do you know that the sorbet you're blindfoldedly eating is the raspberry and not the blackberry?

I know because I eat scum for breakfast.




No one knows for sure until the flip.

Well, no, it's not very good play, so I wouldn't imagine you would play it that way.
To say that I think Wolf is Town would be stretching.
If she flips Town I reassess. Now's not really the time for that though.
To say that I think Galagya is Scum would be patently untrue.

Why are so you interested in who I'm scumreading besides Raddish? That's the one that's relevant at present.

There are two mafia in the game. Even if I flip scum there's still someone else you got to oust, and I haven't seen you put much pressure on whoever they might be.

This is more of an IC question, when do lynches typically happen? Are reads still a good idea at this point in the gameday, wouldn't people get too focused on that and pass the deadline?

1. What I meant by that is: it's hard to give examples why it's one over the other; you just know because you've eaten those sorbets before. It's a continuation of the extended metaphor.
2. That's because I need to see your flip first.
3. Reads are always important, and it's possible to keep one eye on the deadline while you give them. Now is the time we should be

consolidating onto a couple wagons

(done!) and discussing compromise.

@kuror: Only that I don't really have any.

So you have both SE slots (me and Dongem) as complete null? like we were when grapes opened the thread? or a different kind of null?

Well, different, obviously. There's way too much content for you both to be at true null.

But I really don't want to discuss this, because there's something I want to say but only if/when Raddish gets lynched.

--

@Everyone: (btw the timing of Raddish's Wolf intent is super opportunistic)

[goodmorning]

@gm I hope you explain thoroughly the reasons to avoid that discussion if the time comes. Also what do you think about wolf. Seems you read him as town now but I thought you were reading Oacenth as scum, so anything wolf has done made you change your mind or am I remembering things wrong?

I've been moving away from a scumread on that slot since before Oacenth replaced out of it. When I got her out of "I don't know what to do" mode, she started looking Town, and Wolf hasn't dropped any tells but Newb ones.

On the topic, you pointed raddish vote on wolf. But isn't equally bad wolf's vote on skiddish? I mean he was the first to jump at the closest growing wagon and you were the one to call him out because he wasn't scumhunting... or townhunting. So whats the deal there?

Yes, Wolf's vote on Skiddish is equally opportunistic. But Wolf has already shown a pattern of inward-focused thinking, which his vote is consistent with.

re: your readslist: can you be more specific?

Specific on as to what?

You say "I think his/her posts are good" a lot in that readslist. I want to know which posts you find good and why. You don't have to give a lot of examples, just one or two from each person.

@Raddish 276: You may notice you've highlighted "consistent" words with two different connotations there. ("Read consistency" = reading most/all players the same way the whole game; "consistent pattern of worrying behaviour" = you have frequently done scummy things.) You may also notice that I said hypocrisy is not

necessarily

a scumtell.

@Raddish 277:
1. It might; it has been a while. But I don't think so.
2. I have some ideas, but I won't know which are right until you're dead and I'm not going to voice them and incite sheep.
3. If I eventually read you as Town, I certainly wouldn't let you get lynched.
4. "Oh look, Wolf is being run up/maybe L-1/I'm also being run up/let's end this Day before it gets any more traction."
Never said I didn't. See above.

This post actually gave me a bit of insight on how you viewed goodmorning's actions towards you. To me, it feels like you're convinced from the first few posts she made about being suspicious of you that gm would always be reading you as if you were scum, instead of having the possibility that she might be trying to find reasons from you to change her mind.

But I mean, does it seem like to you that Goodmorning is legitimately looking for those possibilities?

I can assure you that I am not, in fact, a moron.

ok no freaking clue what happened or why it looks like that but i hope MOD can make the format right.

You probably did [ spoiler ][ quote ][ / spoiler ][ / quote ].
Breaks the whole damn page.

(Actually given the "wrote for ants" thing I think you just missed an end bracket on your open quote. Like

post whatever[endurl], "Person" SHOULD BE END BRACKET HERE.)

[goodmorning]

VCA is usually silly.

The lynch rate for Scum D1 in Newbies last time I checked was 18%, which is slightly below random but also not zero.

[goodmorning]

I've learned to be wary of D1 wagons because I've only seen scum lynched on D1 once. Every other time, it's been a scum-filled wagon on a weak townie.

That's honestly fascinating. Has the forum done any statistics on this?

I have! They're old though. I was actually going to work on them a bit today but life happened. Still might manage.

p-edit

: What's VCA?
So it's a little under a 1 in 5 chance. That makes sense with 9 players.

VoteCount Analysis.
2/9 is 0.2 repeating, so yes.

[goodmorning]

I mean, I'm a good 100 games behind. I'm going to try to do 10 per day and get caught up, but we'll see. It's already ~160 games worth of data.

[goodmorning]

Please nobody vote before they've stated intent, good gracious.

More in a minute.

[goodmorning]

p-edit: Just saw the updated VC timer. I though we had less time, so I wont hammer until later tomorrow. I will give it at least 24 hours... The day doesn't end until 10pm Monday night for me and tomorrow is a busy day at school, so obviously it will be best if everyone can post their final thoughts before N1.

Most mods use the 0.00

@Goodmorning

0.00

Spoiler:

0.00

0.00

do I need it

0.00

0.00

necessarily

0.00

0.00

0.00

0.00

0.00

0.00

0.00
0.00

0.00

GM

as IC

0.00
0.00

0.00

[goodmorning]

guys i literally was screaming about how scummy boring was in the dead thread nearly the whole time



i hope you're happy

[goodmorning]

If anyone wants me to say IC things you're welcome to ask.

[goodmorning]

I thought Map was a really obvious newbTown.

[goodmorning]

@Galagya: The main thing for me (D1, at least) was that you just sounded a little fake on occasion. It was probably just nerves or something like them and should go away soon if it hasn't already. I didn't have a problem with your content particularly (except the two instances I noted in the Dead Thread & my small reservations in this one) but I think some people might have found you more "too wordy" than I did. I think the timing of your V/LA also didn't help.

@boring: When I play Scum, I focus almost exclusively on this question: how would I be reading this player if I were Town? And then I do that. Sometimes I play AFK IC to draw heat from a newbScum partner, but mostly I try to keep it simple: read people like I would have read them anyway. The biggest trick I ever usually try as Scum is sleight-of-hand - try and make everyone focus on your right hand while you cut the deck with your left. But I'm pretty risk-averse.

Basically: give reads which don't fence-sit (real T and S reads; try to have no more than 1 Null per 8 other players in the game as soon as it's reasonable). Have some kind of evidence for them. Town does scummy shit as often as Scum. Stay active, because people will read that as Town. Don't try anything too flash.

@Skiddish: I said most of it while we were in the Dead Thread - it would have been good if you'd claimed. But now you know! Besides that, maybe be more blunt? And try not to think of PRs as super extra special, because that'll take care of 90% of the stuff I thought was Scum.

[goodmorning]

I actually get caught as Scum by people who know me because I tend to softball my partner(s). The second they start getting suspected, we're actually fucked.

[goodmorning]

@Galagya: "playing hardball" might be an expression you've heard. "Softballing" someone is just the opposite of that. So yes, weak punches is a good description.

@nmego: Nothing you did looked scummy. Next time, just make sure you're going to have time to play, or use V/LA if you're only going to be gone a few days.

[goodmorning]

Depends on the kind of player you are.