Newbie 1767 | Winter | Endgame

[SensFan]

Checking in. I'll join Loopdan on voting Selynee since he's been here a while.

Vote: Selynee

[SensFan]

VOTE: Frederick[/unvote].

Post 25 seems forced.

[SensFan]

Sure. Piggybacked on your vote since (I think) you were the oldest member who had checked in.

[SensFan]

VOTE: Frederick[/unvote].

Post 25 seems forced.

How does it seem that way?

You quoted a vote-change out of context and asked why he changed his mind, when the literal next post in the game was an explanation for the vote.

Also, VOTE: Frederick. Hopefully that worked; I don't think vote tags were a thing when I left.

[SensFan]

I give up.

Vote: Frederick

[SensFan]

Was looking for a shitty reason to vote for someone that on the surface looked (particularly in a Newb) like it might be serious.

Why are you so curious about a RVS vote?

[SensFan]

Given my join date, did you expect I was making a

serious

vote based on sheeping your experience?

[SensFan]

Unvote; Vote: TheBrie

[SensFan]

VOTE: Frederick[/unvote].

Post 25 seems forced.

How does it seem that way?

You quoted a vote-change out of context and asked why he changed his mind, when the literal next post in the game was an explanation for the vote.
...

I've got no idea what you mean by I quoted her out of context. It is true she explained her second vote. However, that doesn't explain why the vote was changed, which was the question I asked.

I mean that she explained why she moved her vote, and yet you snipped that part out of your quote and asked her why she changed her vote. Pretty simple.

[SensFan]

There's clearly no reason for the first vote (aka random). Then on a read of the game, there's a valid reason to vote and so it moves. Seems pretty straightforward.

[SensFan]

Wow. Guess that's that. Nice job Loopdan.

[SensFan]

Hold up. Why the change of heart so quickly, Echo?

[SensFan]

That's not an acceptable answer.

[SensFan]

That whole Echo thing *reeks* of sloppily bussing his partner, thinking better of it and then trying wildly to deflect attention from the wagon.

[SensFan]

If Huntress still suspects Echo and can explain why, I'll jump on that wagon. Something doesn't seem quite right.

No. Full stop.

You need to use your own reads. I don't want you to tell me what Huntress thinks; I want you to tell me what you think.

[SensFan]

Okay, Im posting from mobile but I've got some stuff figured out. I've got two scum reads right now and it's on Huntress and SensFan. I have more suspicion on SensFan, so I'll start with him first. Towards the beginning of the game, SensFan decided to put a vote on Fred (who I have a town read for) due to a "Forced Post". The post was just a simple question on why somebody changed their vote. Nothing very forced about that IMO. That right there put a finger of suspicion on him for me. But it's his later posts that got me a complete maf read. Sens decided to hop on a wagon for Brie putting her at L-2(I believe) with absolutely no explanation. Yeah shit like that happens, but this struck me as very odd. The most suspicious thing for me was right after Loopdan used his fake guess shit. Sens said, "Wow. Guess that's that. Nice job loopdan." He didn't even bother reading the wiki or anything about it. He seemed so eager to end the game but didn't say anything at all about the whole thing and how ridiculous it seemed. He was just way way WAY too eager to put the game to an end. I'm on my way home now, so I'll post the rest of my findings later. For now,

VOTE: SensFan

On a scale of 0-10, how likely is it that someone with a join date of 2007 believed there existed such a thing as a "1-shot game-end"?

[SensFan]

Okay. So we agree that I for sure did not know that it didn't exist, and yet you think it's fishy I didn't check the wiki to see if it existed?

[SensFan]

Echo, even if Sens didn't know there is no such thing as "1-shot game-end", if he is mafia he would know that Loopdan was wrong about the scumteam, so the game wouldn't end.
But I agree that his vote on Brie is strange considering he accused Fred before this of quoting Rask out of context and ignoring the explanation for her vote.

I don't follow where asking why someone (seemingly) purposefully ignored the reason for a vote is at odds with me voting for someone without immediately explaining everything.

[SensFan]

I moved my vote because I thought it was better-placed on Brie at the time, both because of her posts immediately before my vote and the fact I thought getting a wagon going on a new and skiddish player seemed like it would be helpful.

[SensFan]

If Huntress still suspects Echo and can explain why, I'll jump on that wagon. Something doesn't seem quite right.
Loopdan on the other hand is crazily confusing. I don't know what lying to a newbie about the game mechanics is supposed to achieve.

I explained it in 104, and nothing I've seen since has changed that feeling. But if you haven't seen that then you've no reason to sheep me; so why are you prepared to do so?

I missed that. The reason I was willing to vote Echo on more evidence was that I had some suspicions. His sudden vote on my seemed a little odd. Immediately pulling it off again when I commented, is suspicious unless he really hadn't realized that out me at L-1 and didn't want me there. Which is possible, but he didn't really explain.
What he's since said about Sensfan sounds alright, though Sensfan's post 141 made a lot of sense too. So I don't have enough to change to either of them. Huntress, what do you think of Sensfan and Loopdan. I'm sure they're not a team, but everything else about them is uncertain.

We want to hear your thoughts on people. Not Huntress' thoughts.

Take a stance. Who is most likely to be Scum based on everything so far?

[SensFan]

Okay. So we agree that I for sure did not know that it didn't exist, and yet you think it's fishy I didn't check the wiki to see if it existed?

Okay, I understand where I went wrong with the wiki part. However, you obviously knew that it wasn't real as you had stated in your post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8684744. So if you knew it wasn't real, what was the point in your post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8681541? Something doesn't add up and I'm not sure which post you're lying about.

I'm sure you can do better than that if you try to think about why I might have responded in the way I did.

But frankly, it doesn't matter. Scum read = vote.

But of course you're not trying to deduce anything; you've made up your mind and aren't even trying to disguise it.

[SensFan]

So, post 21 has enough validity to make TheBrie scummy?

SensFan?

100%. Literally anything that makes someone 1% more likely than random to be Scum is better than a random vote.

[SensFan]

Rask is right. Echo's 125 is terrible.

Agreed. Especially with the timing of it.

[SensFan]

Unvote.

Will probably move over to Echo shortly.

[SensFan]

Wait what? If my explanation of my vote change makes sense, why are you suspicious of me because of my vote change?

[SensFan]

I haven't sheeped anyone beyond my intial RVS vote. I think my feelings on most people are pretty clear.

[SensFan]

Seconding the call for a claim.

EchoVision

, I will hammer you if your next post does not have a claim in it.[/b]

[SensFan]

I haven't sheeped anyone beyond my intial RVS vote. I think my feelings on most people are pretty clear.

both your votes at Frederick and Brie happened one post after another vote on him.

In both cases someone else happened to check in first. I actually gave reasoning for the Fred vote before you did. Is anyone but the first person to log on after something bad is posted just sheeping?

@Sensfan, why are you so eager to hammer?
I'm more comfortable with waiting a few days as Loopy planned.

I'm not eager to hammer at all. I just want to set a clear expectation of a claim, and so there is the very sincere threat of a hammer to dissuade him from doing something stupid (like not claiming).

[SensFan]

Welp. That wasn't a claim.

Vote: Echo

[SensFan]

that doesn't count as a hammer. give rasko the time he requested.

Thanks for that.

Vote: Echo

[SensFan]

Eh. You forced my hand. Worked okay, considering.

[SensFan]

I'm also interested in that.

There were two options: that I intentionally screwed up the vote formatting, or that it was an honest mistake and I intended to hammer. In either case, pointing it out leads to me immediately hammering.

[SensFan]

@lucca-- If you wanted more time, why did you point out the hammer didn't count?

I'm also interested in that.

There were two options: that I intentionally screwed up the vote formatting, or that it was an honest mistake and I intended to hammer. In either case, pointing it out leads to me immediately hammering.

He was going to realize that he didn't hammer soon enough. I wanted to see that, if Rasko did his catchup, if he would unvote. There was a lot of time until the deadline. He could've waited to do the hammer until Rasko had posted.

Sens, did you intend to hammer? Answer me, or you're going to wait Loopdan to answer and then sheep him?

Not until you forced my hand.

[SensFan]

Your insistence on the story that all I do is sheep people is cute, though.

[SensFan]

Gave him a chance to claim. He declined to do so.

[SensFan]

I mean I'm not exactly up to date on my ancient site meta history but cmon. Newbie game.

a) I've seen a lot go wrong from letting people draw out a claim
b) I'm not convinced there's any claim that would have changed my mind on lynching him anyways

[SensFan]

It's just as much on lucca as it is on me. There's no reasonable expectation of making a "that hammer doesn't count" post other than the hammer being made correctly.

[SensFan]

I also posted 24 earlier my intention to hammer if Echo didn't claim. Anyone could have unvoted to prevent a hammer.

[SensFan]

I'm not sure I like how you ask lucca about it as if it was partially his fault though

"hold on and wait" really doesn't seem malicious and arguing it was intended to get the hammer down doesn't sound fair.

I agree. Lucca said clearly to wait. Though perhaps if he really wanted to make sure he should have unvoted.

I'm more than half inclined to vote Sensfan now for not waiting, but I'm not sure Scum would draw attention to them-self like that. Though in that case drawing attention to yourself might trick us into thinking you're not scum. So I dunno. It's hard when you can come up with a way anyone could be scum or town.

Stop trying to think if Scum would or wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves, since you'll just talk yourself in circles.

Ask yourself if the actions of X are more likely to be made by X being Town or Scum.

[SensFan]

I mean I'm not exactly up to date on my ancient site meta history but cmon. Newbie game.

a) I've seen a lot go wrong from letting people draw out a claim
b) I'm not convinced there's any claim that would have changed my mind on lynching him anyways

a) Like what? What have you seen go so wrong from letting people draw out a claim that this overrides the town benefit of getting a claim?
b) If he'd claimed a PR and there was no counterclaim you would still lynch? With that much time left in Day 1?

I don't see the town motive in what you did. I can see the scum motive.

a) Well, for one, apparently you won't lynch a Scum on D1 if you let them claim? (based on your b)
b) Uh, yes? 100% yes. This isn't an open set-up. Every Scum in here will claim a PR, and you won't lynch them if you back off on that. It's also probably not worth outing a Town PR to counterclaim a Scum that got run up this early.

I've seen countless people chicken the heck out of lynching someone based on a Cop claim or something similar.

[SensFan]

People change their mind, go inactive, get bored. Scum have time to come up with a fakeclaim. I've seen countless times where people are wagoned to L-1 with intent to lynch pending a claim, they refuse to claim, and people chicken out and don't force the issue.

Four people were content voting him. I gave 24h notice that I would hammer if there was no claim, and no one unvoted. I hammered. Don't try and put that all on me.

[SensFan]

lucca and huntress have been the two that have stood out to me as particularly scummy in the early parts of today. Huntress in particular seems super eager to put all of a D1 lynch on one person, and has been around the block way too much to seriously think that 'one time someone did this thing and was Scum' is at all relevant.

TheBrie is super raw, which is making it hard for me to read her. For now I think I'm willing to put her in the Town pile until a bit later, but plan on looking back at her stances on people when we get more flips. I think she's the least likely to have been able to look natural as Scum looking back in hindsight on stuff like a Scum wagon.

Loopdan and I seem to naturally be on the same page on most/all issues, which makes me inclined he's looking at the game sincerely.

I don't feel like I have a good grasp on Fred/Selynee/Rask right now, though I should go back. I feel like I remember finding Fred suspicious on D1 and I'm not sure why.

[SensFan]

Asked by lucca and answered: intentionally messed up.

[SensFan]

Sickofit: Your top two scumreads are lucca and I? Is that a scumpairing in your mind, or mutually exclusive?

[SensFan]

Woah hold up. No one should claim.

[SensFan]

Sickofit: Your top two scumreads are lucca and I? Is that a scumpairing in your mind, or mutually exclusive?

individual scumreads im not doing accosiatives quite yet.

If I flipped Scum, would that make lucca look more or less likely to be Scum?
If lucca flipped Scum, would that make me look more or less likely to be Scum?

[SensFan]

Sickofit: Your top two scumreads are lucca and I? Is that a scumpairing in your mind, or mutually exclusive?

individual scumreads

im not doing accosiatives quite yet.

If I flipped Scum, would that make lucca look more or less likely to be Scum?
If lucca flipped Scum, would that make me look more or less likely to be Scum?

I'm not asking you to associate two people who are alive and you don't know their roles.

Assume I get modkilled right now and flip Scum. You know 100% I was Scum this game. What would your thoughts on lucca be?
Likewise for if lucca got modkilled and flipped Scum. What would your thoughts on me be?

[SensFan]

Why shouldn't bulletproof claim in this set up if they were hit? They are just a VT now.

For one, the hypothetical Bulletproof would be closer to an Innocent Child than a VT.
For two, it gives Scum more information about the setup than it does us.
For three, they could be lying.
And for four, based on a cursory wording of the PMs they don't know if they were hit.

[SensFan]

hurr durr Loopdan stop sheeping Sens.

Am I doing that right?

[SensFan]

lucca and huntress have been the two that have stood out to me as particularly scummy in the early parts of today. Huntress in particular seems super eager to put all of a D1 lynch on one person, and has been around the block way too much to seriously think that 'one time someone did this thing and was Scum' is at all relevant.

TheBrie is super raw, which is making it hard for me to read her. For now I think I'm willing to put her in the Town pile until a bit later, but plan on looking back at her stances on people when we get more flips. I think she's the least likely to have been able to look natural as Scum looking back in hindsight on stuff like a Scum wagon.

Loopdan and I seem to naturally be on the same page on most/all issues, which makes me inclined he's looking at the game sincerely.

I don't feel like I have a good grasp on Fred/Selynee/Rask right now, though I should go back. I feel like I remember finding Fred suspicious on D1 and I'm not sure why.

Don't like this post. You have zero substance reads, save for Loopdan.

So you have four null reads, Loopdan as town, me as scum without explaining it and Huntress as scum because she put the hammer exclusively on you? You explain the total of two reads. All the other ones are unexplained.

This "readslist" feels like you are trying too hard to make your options open. If you need to ever vote one of your four null votes, by this, you can just say "Hey, I re-read then and they're scum".

Btw this is scum distancing from their partner when I called them out.

Posts like this are what make me throw out all the stuff you've said that looked reasonable.

[SensFan]

Because it's an atrocious post in which I can't find a single possible Town motive for you.

[SensFan]

Sickofit: Your top two scumreads are lucca and I? Is that a scumpairing in your mind, or mutually exclusive?

individual scumreads im not doing accosiatives quite yet.

Sickofit: Your top two scumreads are lucca and I? Is that a scumpairing in your mind, or mutually exclusive?

individual scumreads

im not doing accosiatives quite yet.

If I flipped Scum, would that make lucca look more or less likely to be Scum?
If lucca flipped Scum, would that make me look more or less likely to be Scum?

Sickofit: Your top two scumreads are lucca and I? Is that a scumpairing in your mind, or mutually exclusive?

individual scumreads

im not doing accosiatives quite yet.

If I flipped Scum, would that make lucca look more or less likely to be Scum?
If lucca flipped Scum, would that make me look more or less likely to be Scum?

I'm not asking you to associate two people who are alive and you don't know their roles.

Assume I get modkilled right now and flip Scum. You know 100% I was Scum this game. What would your thoughts on lucca be?
Likewise for if lucca got modkilled and flipped. Scum. What would your thoughts on me be?

I don't see anything that makes you likely buddies or unlikely buddies.

[SensFan]

Lucca and sens are the scumteam. Thank me later.


Let's toy with this. Sens what's your full read on lucca?

Leaning Scum, but still unsure if it's a bias from knowing he's been on my ass and wrong for the better part of two days.

Which brings me to my next point. He's been on my ass for the better part of two days. This isn't a 'reaction' to you calling us your most likely scumpair.

p-edit: I know. Just wanted to remind everyone how full of shit you are, suddenly calling out a scumpairing due to what you call bussing.

[SensFan]

Whatever. Call it what you want. It doesn't jive with you not being willing to commit to associative tells, or whatever you called it.

All of a sudden, a page or two later, not only are you willing to commit to two people being Scum, but do it for blatantly fabricated and false reasoning? Do you have such a high measure of self-importance that you take credit for something that's been happening well before you showed up?

[SensFan]

I'm discrediting you because:
1) You claim that he's distancing with me as a result of you labeling us both scum when he's been doing it way before you showed up.
2) You went out of your way earlier to tell me you weren't interested in any sort of tells of association to the point that when I asked what your response would be *to knowing my alignment* you still told me you weren't going to speculate on associative tells. And now suddenly you're sure you caught two scum distancing?

It doesn't make sense, and isn't consistent.

[SensFan]

Okay, yeah. Fred is probably still Scum.

[SensFan]

Okay, yeah. Fred is probably still Scum.

On what basis are you making that accusation?

Your consistent taking of things out of context to make someone look bad when you ask about it.

[SensFan]

I think 297 still holds for me atm regarding lucca.

I'd be interested in seeing where sensfan and huntress do decide to vote today given we're a fair chunk of the way through.

I find it strange that Sens thinks I'm scummy for so long, and when there's a wagon on me, he decides to not vote.

I'm consciously trying to remove the innate bias from knowing you're wrong in coming after me. At least your reasons for suspecting me are consistent even if I disagree. The difference between your case against me and that of Fred/sickofit is night and day.

[SensFan]

Your attitude? I'm sick of it.

Vote: Fred

.

[SensFan]

Okay, yeah. Fred is probably still Scum.

On what basis are you making that accusation?

Your consistent taking of things out of context to make someone look bad when you ask about it.

Examples, sir.

We went over this in D1. You've since continued to do very similar things in for example your 'case' against me.

--

Also, your list of reads has 1 scum, 1 null, and the rest Town. Just FYI.

[SensFan]

I can type up a full response to 357 tonight, but the gist is you quote my two votes with no context and ask why I changed my vote, while glossing over the incredibly relevant TheBrie content immediately preceding my vote on her.

As for the other point, it's relevant because you're putting one of your scum reads down as null. That's definitely worth pointing out, because it is odd and doesn't make sense.

[SensFan]

So, post 57 is scummy? I would consider it truthful. Also, Huntress is not a scumread of mine nor is she townreaad. Should I say "not scumread and townread" before you could understand my read isn't a scumread?

52, 56, 57 were all pretty terrible.

Huntress is a scumread of yours, that's my point. Unless you're claiming scum? Otherwise you have Huntress as a scumread by default.

[SensFan]

Sensfan is only pushing the people that have pushed him it seems. I disagree nadpool that he is "obvtown". And then having the same readslist as you is not a valid reason to TR them.

It helps you be able to see cause and effect in posts if you read the thread. This is the second time you've claimed things were caused by things that came well afterwards.

[SensFan]

Your attitude? I'm sick of it.

Vote: Fred

.

Attitude or the vote being on you?

I agree with sick on this one, you've so far mostly reacted to those who've been on you and kind of ignored those who haven't.

I'm not sure how to reconcile your play altogether here with your joindate tbh, d1-end particularly.

As far as I can tell, SickOfIt's vote has never been on me. Though I can see why it might look like that first part was directed at Fred when removed from the fact it was right after SOI's post.

You can agree with Sick all you want. The fact remains I have been paying 'attention' to people, especially Fred, well before the suspicion on me. Sick has this weird thing where he assigns the causation of an event to something that happened after the event. He did it when he mentioned that lucca started distancing with me as a reaction to Sick calling us both Scum, and is doing it again by saying I'm pushing Fred because he pushed me.

[SensFan]

Sick replaced in, which obviously caused my stance on that slot to be liable to change.

I feel like you're being a little disingenuous in regards to Fred. I explicitly mentioned remembering finding him scummy on D1 and then I proceeded to call him scummy when he again did exactly the same thing that I called him out on way back then.

[SensFan]

I just realized I never commented on your point about my join date. Read what you want into it; I make no claims in general that people who have been here longer are any better or worse than newer players. Worth noting that until a couple weeks ago, my most recent game was Mini 1337 though, for however that affects your view on my experience.

[SensFan]

Better or worse doesn't even necessarily enter into it, it's behavioral and you can generally expect some standards in due-diligence town play you wouldn't from someone with a new or seminew joindate.

Due diligence like contradicting someone by claiming I haven't said something that I very much explicitly did say?

[SensFan]

Right. You said you expected due diligence from me one post after trying to discredit Loopdan by saying that not even I claimed it was on purpose. So I pointed out that you were dead wrong on the facts and that I very explicitly said (claimed, from your perspective) that I did it purposefully.

Tell me more about doing due diligence on things I post though.

[SensFan]

Rask- Are you reading anything I write? At all?

Right. You said you expected due diligence from me one post after trying to discredit Loopdan by saying that not even I claimed it was on purpose. So

I pointed out that you were dead wrong on the facts and that I very explicitly said (claimed, from your perspective) that I did it purposefully.

Tell me more about doing due diligence on things I post though.

[SensFan]

We can quibble about if lack of bold text constitutes a "minor error". It's not super relevant. I certainly wasn't sure if it would be counted. Admittedly, much of my experience does come from an Era where the norm was that nonbolded votes weren't counted.

None of this responds to the fact you got on a high horse and told me you expected more due diligence from someone with my join date and then proceeded to be factually wrong on game events for several posts, and then double down by asking me to clarify those game events immediately after I had just clarified those game events.

[SensFan]

Actually WTF

Even if that was true
If you wanted to react test to see if scum would point out your hammer was misdone that would imply thinking echovision was town WHILE lynching him

Are you high? I actually can't fathom how you could possibly jump to this conclusion.

[SensFan]

@Sensfan I already explained and Rask has explained - that we are not wrong about the game events and your repeating over and over again that we're wrong. That's the only "scumhubting" you're doing (if you can call it that).

Rask was wrongoing about something that happened (that I did say/claim it was on purpose). That's a factual game event, and presumably an honest mistake out of carelessness.

You're both misrepresenting what came first in regards to me and Fred suspecting each other. That's less likely to be an honest mistake, and more likely to be purposefully disingenuous.

[SensFan]

This is so ridiculous. I'll respond tonight when I'm home.

[SensFan]

I was never "sure" Echo was Scum, nor was my original intention to hammer without a claim. I thought he was probably Scum, and was a fine choice as a D1 wagon/lynch. After four other people also agreed with said assessment (by voting for him), I gave notice that I was happy with an Echo lynch and that he should claim in his next post or be hammered. Fairly straightforward and common, and I assumed he would claim and we would have something to discuss. Instead, he doesn't claim and so he gets hammered. Again pretty straightforward, simple. At that point I realized that it being a relatively early hammer and in a Newbie game, I had the opportunity for a no-risk gambit. I would purposefully mess up the bold tags on the vote. This is hardly a new or original idea, was not at all unheard of back in the day (and I think a decent part of the reason for the shift from a "Votes will not count unless bolded" to "Votes may not count unless bolded" ruleset). This being a newbie game I felt like the possible rewards were certainly amplified relative to a game with experienced players, for fairly obvious reasons. Basically, either PP would count the vote or he wouldn't; I wasn't sure either way. If he counted the vote, nothing was lost or gained. Thus, we must only look at the situation (whatever the odds; I probably had them at about 25-50%) where he did not count the vote. In that scenario, there would be a portion of time in which some/all people would assume Echo was hammered and post accordingly when in fact he wasn't. Perhaps Echo would post something like "WTF! I was the Cop!" Perhaps someone would commit to a read/response to what they assumed was a completed wagon. More importantly though are the actions of anyone who thought the day might not be over. It would be noteworthy if someone rushed to unvote to prevent a hammer. It would be noteworthy if someone (as happened) objected to an early hammer but specifically did not unvote. It goes without saying that once someone pointed it out, any further benefits were lost and so I reverted to the original plan of hammering (perhaps again? perhaps for the first time?)

Having said all of that, this is way way way too much time spent discussing something fairly trivial and minor. It's really not worth analyzing that much, and I only mentioned it again because Rask made a case against Loopdan that involved me not having claimed it was done on purpose, and so I pointed out the inaccuracy.

[SensFan]

^^^
do I need to read this it looks intimidatingly large and when i attempt to read it everything blurs together.

Eh, looking back it's a bit wall-of-text-ish. Sorry.

tl;dr is that the messed up formatting has upside but no risk. Someone might say something they shouldn't, or might actively tell me not to hammer (despite my intentions) but not unvote. 'Downside' is that the hammer sticks and we're no worse off than a normal hammer.

[SensFan]

Huh. That's...noteworthy. I'd have to look back and see how often I (or anyone else) said something similar, though. Certainly the era of smartphones makes it easier to post short stuff on the go here, while not wanting to look like you're ignoring the major stuff.

[SensFan]

Or we could just lynch the slot and save us all some time.

[SensFan]

Sobolev Space made as good an entry as could be expected. Liked it better than Sickofit's. But he was replacing into an easier spot and had less pressure. I would be not want to be in Space's position.

I thought about unvoting temporarily, but I don't think anyone will want the heat from quick hammering amd the benefits of a Fred flip, if they do, haven't vanished.

Uh, not for nothing..what do you mean that was a good entry? He didn't say anything, at all. Just 'Hey I'll catch up soon' and 'Please don't hammer me.'

[SensFan]

I'm not really saying that there was anything wrong with your entry. Someyhong just rubbed me the wring way.

And what I mean about Space is that

she

didn't sound at all nervous. Especially since we'd talked if lynching before we got a replacement. There is 20 pages to read through.
I would have expected her to have something to say by now.

I'm really confused here. Literally all that she said was "Don't lynch me" with nothing at all of substance. How did you get from that 'Nice entrance; didn't sound at all nervous'?

You then say "There is 20 pages to read through. I would have expected her to have something to say by now."
Aren't those two sentences completely at odds with each other? If there is 20 pages to read through, wouldn't that tend to indicate it may take a while to get a real post? As well, saying "I would have expected her to have something to say by now" seems contradictory with your earlier claim she had a good entrance. Are you suggesting that it's a good thing she hasn't contributed anything, or that your opinion changed since you said her entry was good?

[SensFan]

Sens, did you intend to hammer? Answer me, or you're going to wait Loopdan to answer and then sheep him?

Not until you forced my hand.

Asked by lucca and answered: intentionally messed up.

I didn't need to be hounded for anything. I explained what I did right away multiple times, the second one very explicitly. I just didn't go into a full novel about it because I didn't (and still don't) think it was worth that big of a discussion.

[SensFan]

I would also strongly object to your assessment that I was ever in a "life-or-death" situation. But it's not unusual for you to misrepresent what happened in the game.

[SensFan]

lucca's L-1 post on me is atrocious. We can agree on that.

[SensFan]

What information do you expect to gain from a lucca flip?
What about a Sens flip?

[SensFan]

I assume that was aimed at me?

[SensFan]

Can I get some clarification on my first question in that post?

I'm really confused here. Literally all that she said was "Don't lynch me" with nothing at all of substance. How did you get from that 'Nice entrance; didn't sound at all nervous'?

[SensFan]

For someone that wasn't impressed by 'filler' posts, what the heck do you call those?

[SensFan]

Lucca has been very wishywashy and his posts are all filler...

You make an interesting point about it being noteworthy when someone posts a ton of filler. Hold that thought for a moment.

Spoiler:

by the way i'm going to get a seizure next time i see Fred's Avi.

Not joking.

Oh it's on. Prepare for your world to be rocked.

Lolol

^^^
do I need to read this it looks intimidatingly large and when i attempt to read it everything blurs together.

Oh and @sickofit, your avatar is more annoying to me than Fred's. Maybe not epilepsy causing, but I hate animated gifs. Particularly coloured fast paced ones. Loopdan's isn't so bad.

K avatar changed.

Good things come for those whoops wait.

what do you want me to say Sensfan? Since your such a good town leader

Not buddying you, just waiting for you to vote scum with me

[SensFan]

You're still shadethrowing at me. But you're not even pushing my lynch?

Not right now. Much more interested in seeing Fred's slot get hung. Nothing against Soblev, but unfortunately the sins of Fred are still too much for me, and that's not something a replacement can change.

I'm not even convinced through and through you're Scum, to be honest. I think you might just be making bad arguments but from an honest place.

[SensFan]

Please elaborate.

[SensFan]

Thirding the call for a claim.

I support a hammer if Sobolev posts without claiming.

[SensFan]

Re: Sens 546
You're right. I've been trying to reevaluate my opinion of you as I think I conflated 'disagree with lucca a lot' with 'lucca is likely scum'. Truth is I do think you're coming at stuff honestly, especially lately. I'd say I'm more null on you right now.

Re: Sens 560
Yup. We have, what, 4 days to deadline? Sobolev is at L-1 with someone off the wagon expressing an inclination to hammer. There's no valid reason to try and delay a claim at this point, and the longer we let it drag out we either end up hammering Sobolev anyways, or scrambling to move to another wagon in ~2 days.

[SensFan]

I have a feeling this is a fakeclaim.

TheBrie I think you should hammer before any PRs out themselves to CC.

[SensFan]

Lucca hammer her fast

we need radio silence

every reaction which isn't a hammer is claiming not-cc and therefore leaking info...

Not for nothing, that comes with the assumption everyone is liable to jump through hoops to counterclaim a BP.

[SensFan]

Nope. Didn't understand at all.

*sigh*

[SensFan]

Someone hammer. Salvage something out of today knowing we caught a Scum.

[SensFan]

That boggles the mind.

[SensFan]

Do we want to talk through the merits of having anyone who can counterclaim Rask do so? On the off-chance that was a bus, we win. Downside is if Rask was lying.

***SINCE I APPARENTLY NEED TO SPELL STUFF OUT, PLEASE DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM ANYTHING OR EVEN THINK OF TALKING ABOUT YOUR ROLE UNTIL AND UNLESS THERE IS A CONSENSUS THAT IT MAKES SENSE.***

[SensFan]

Jesus fucking Christ. What part of that disclaimer was hard to understand?

Vote: Rask

[SensFan]

I would argue, if BP exists, no death n1 implies BP was hit n1 and therefore scum would already be aware of who it is, so them claiming only gives town information.

I would argue you stop speculating. Like three pages ago.

[SensFan]

I've won many games through speculation and cooperation, what do you have to show for yourself?

What I have to show for myself is not fakeclaiming immediately after someone pointed out there was no imminent need to claim, then immediately retracting it immediately after someone suggested not to talk about roles, then immediately posting incorrect deductions about what the Scum know.

[SensFan]

Basically what Rask did at EoD would have been scummy (and stupid) if Sobolev had flipped town.

With a scum flip it is NAI.

Normally, I agree with you.

The fact is it was done *immediately* after I strongly implied that no one should claim.
Then today, at the first sign that maybe we should probe for a CC, *right after I made it clear that no one should discuss their roles* Rask again brings it up.

If it was Town-motivated, why the hell would you back off of it? There was no reasonable threat of an immediate counterclaim. TownRask should be aiming to make it tonight and get shot.

[SensFan]

So how long do we wait around before hammering? Reading other games hasn't helped me figure out what to do in this situation, so I have no idea what's most usrful.

Also how long can I be V/LA without needing to be replaced?
I want to finish the game, but, starting in 4 hours, I might not be able to post till Friday.
If I haven't posted by Monday morning US time, you'll know I can't get on.
So ask me any questions you need now.

Two birds, one stone. Hammer before you take off.

Alternatively, we massclaim who we protected N1 if we were the Doc. It's a hedge between a massclaim and nothing. We guarantee to enter tomorrow with 1 confirmed Town, plus potentially a second one if multiple people claim the correct target and the Scum guess wrong about the Doctor. I can make the case for either that, or saying nothing and hoping we wake up tomorrow to two confirmed innocents.

[SensFan]

I think I follow what you're saying with the mass doc claim. We'll know who the real doc is if they're killed and have a confirmed innocent. And if the scum misses, the doc can claim the next day.

Correct.

Are you saying that's an alternative to lynching anyone, or a safe guard in case we miss?

Alternative to getting the Doc to claim (and he dies tonight), or hiding the Doc (risking he dies with the info).

--

TheBrie, since you're in a time crunch can you kick us off? Say who you protected (assuming you were the Doc), then pick who goes next.

[SensFan]

Pick who goes next as well.

[SensFan]

Also protected Loopdan.

Huntress, you're up.

[SensFan]

Rask, what possessed you to think that fake counter-claiming your buddy on the way out the door would lead to anything but you being lynched when someone countered you?

[SensFan]

Rask, what possessed you to think that fake counter-claiming your buddy on the way out the door would lead to anything but you being lynched when someone countered you?

I'm beginning to think you've never seen the town gambit the scum play was based on, but it's actually a legit thing to bait NKs and you always retract next day if it fails.

I've seen many such gambits. I've never seen one where the guy who counterclaims to quickhammer then retracts lives through two more days. It's effective as Town specifically because your survival doesn't matter.

[SensFan]

Nice job modding, PP!

[SensFan]

I certainly hadn't gone back to notice the tracker result crumb. I think there were ways to win even with a Fred lynch, but you were drawing dead after the fake-claim thing. Just my 2c.

[SensFan]

Was a fun game. GG all.

[SensFan]

Whatever, Rask.

[SensFan]

Yeah, feeling is mutual Loopdan. Was a pleasure playing with you. A nice welcome back for me!

[SensFan]

I'm still not sold Rasko can survive two lynches with the weird fakeclaim hijinks. I could be out of touch, but I still think it works as a Town gambit because your survival isn't important.

[SensFan]

By the way Rasko, I did read the Mafia PT in here. I'm impressed by the thought put into everything, and appreciate the journal of your thoughts.

[SensFan]

I'm still not sold Rasko can survive two lynches with the weird fakeclaim hijinks. I could be out of touch, but I still think it works as a Town gambit because your survival isn't important.

It works as a scum gambit as well because even though this gambit has managed to trick everyone, including himself, into believing that this gambit leads to a lynch, it seldom does because of that very same belief. Usually people who play this gambit survives without getting lynched, although there are exceptions.

Whatever.

[SensFan]

?

[SensFan]

No worries lol. Was just confused.

GG though. Sorry I tunneled on you for a bit there.

[SensFan]

Fair enough.

If you have any comments/feedback for me, I'm all ears.

[SensFan]

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes hope nobody takes it personally.

I'll second that. I'm an aggressive player, but try to keep it from getting personal. I'd love to play again with each and every one of you.