Newbie 1901 (Game Over!)

[2ndStoryWindow]

VOTE: Bulbazoor because Pikachu is better

[2ndStoryWindow]

@2ndStoryWindow
@Emperor flippyNips
@Guten tag

How much experience do you have playing mafia?

I have some experience, but it’s been awhile. I know the basic mechanics, but Flavor Leaf’s post did help as a refresher

[2ndStoryWindow]

I don’t like FL and Vork’s flattery. It feels as though they’re using it to buddy up. For now, my VOTE: Flavour Leaf lands here, primarily because it feels like he’s trying too hard to blend in.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Is everyone else asleep? Been a while since I did one of these readlists.

Emperor flippyNips
Vorkuta
2ndStoryWindow
muh316
Guten tag

I am here so far in terms of people I'd be happy with lynching. Guten needs to speak up. 2ndstory, so do you. I want to hear all of what you guys have to say.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think FL and Vork are the scummiest at the moment. This post especially from Vork strikes me as scummy:

I stand by what I wrote. Unfortunately the probability (22%) of randomly catching scum on the first day is more than that (20%) of randomly guessing based on the bandwagon after someone flips green. I like my odds, and bulbasaur is responding quite selfishly and anti-towny. Almost even contrary to the town's win condition....

Why is he trying to get us on the side of "random vote quick guys, we'll get info that way," even after he basically said that,

As town, I would gladly accept the D-1 lynch as a necessary sacrifice and hope town can build a solid case based on any evidence that I've left behind while alive

I used to say things like this as town or scum in my previous days of playing, but that's because I was a bad player. I'm not getting "bad player" vibes from Vork. He seems consistent in his behaviour.

All this said, you may ask why I voted FL instead of Vork. I feel like FL is the safer side to vote on. He's been extremely vocal, and I think we'll get more info from him potentially flipping green than we will if the same thing happens with Vork.

For the rest of the player-pool, I think muh's got my best townread at the moment. His posts feel genuine and he has a balanced mix of speculation to go along with his questions.
Similarly (but also not similar), I do not have a read on Flicker. Most of his posts have been questions, and I acknowledge the fact that he was trying to get conversation started, but still. They just don't seem town or scummy at the moment.

I'm placing a townread on Alonzo for now. More of a gut feeling that could easily change.

Bulbazoor: This one was probably the toughest, but I want to give him a townread. As muh stated, I like how he didn't back down when questioned, and he claims this to be his general playstyle, so I can't give a scumread based off of that.

To the remaining peoples, they have not posted enough for me to get anything off of them. IIRC this includes Emperor flippyNips and Guten tag. Hopefully I didn't leave anyone out.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I don’t like FL and Vork’s flattery. It feels as though they’re using it to buddy up. For now, my VOTE: Flavour Leaf lands here, primarily because it feels like he’s trying too hard to blend in.

Im trying hard to blend in? Damn. I was trying hard to stand out. Feels bad.

"Trying hard to stand out," yeah, I'll agree with that. But the very essence of you trying to stand out creates a loud voice that otherwise blends in with the crowd. Do you get what I'm saying?

If town accepts you and lets you lead, essentially you've blended in, even with such a loud voice. And it is that very loud voice that you would use to guide the town in the wrong direction and win the game for yourself as scum. That's why, at this moment, I'm perfectly happy placing my vote on you.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also, you said I was the safer vote, while I disagree. Sure, a green flip does in fact help you a lot, and that’s what will happen, but I’d rather be alive right now. A red flip by me would give VERY little info. I’m a master of confusion as scum when I’m going down.

I don’t see how this makes a case for me not wanting to lynch you. As town myself, this is literally an ideal scenario. If I’m wrong and you are town, we’ll get a lot of info. That’s fine, can’t always lynch scum on Day 1. If you are scum, I don’t quite mind the lack of info. We’d be one step closer to winning, and we’d have a few more days, as well as info from nightkills, to rely off of to catch your partner. Also, claiming you want to be alive is redundant; everyone wants to stay alive.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Is everyone else asleep? Been a while since I did one of these readlists.

Emperor flippyNips
Vorkuta
2ndStoryWindow
muh316
Guten tag

I am here so far in terms of people I'd be happy with lynching. Guten needs to speak up. 2ndstory, so do you. I want to hear all of what you guys have to say.

Is this list in any particular order?

Similarly (but also not similar), I do not have a read on Flicker. Most of his posts have been questions, and I acknowledge the fact that he was trying to get conversation started, but still. They just don't seem town or scummy at the moment.

*She/her, thanks.

---

In terms of a reads list, this is where I am:

Emperor flippyNips - Jury's out for now.
Vorkuta - Scummiest so far. Not a strong scum vibe, but still.
2ndStoryWindow - Town lean for post 105. I also feel like his vote on Flavour Leaf might be a little IC-related paranioa, which is extremely relatable and more likely to be town IMO.
muh316 - Tentative, somewhat conflicted town lean. Kind of feels like his stances are too safe, like he's trying not to rock the boat or stand out, which feels vaguely scummy. But, I don't know if that's just paranoia because we agree on a lot.
Guten tag - Jury's out for now.
Alonzo - Don't like how he called out/shaded Vorkuta without voting there, but it's one little thing, and from following along with other games Alonzo's been in, he has a style I find hard to read. Null.
Bulbazoor - Towniest so far, for reasons I've already talked about.
Flavor Leaf - The last time I was worried someone was buddying/pocketing me, they turned out to be town. On the other hand, I think a little IC paranoia can be healthy. So, null?

Pedit: Okay, Flavor Leaf can be a scum lean for now. Something about his responses to 2ndStoryWindow feel off.

Pedit2:

Potential ScumFlicker or ScumMuh would benefit greatly from moving to my wagon. Let’s see what happens with them.

Not sure why you said this. You basically just ruined any chance of seeing our actual reactions.

Also, sorry about that. I have a habit of defaulting to he/his since I’m a guy.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Solid. Good to know you’re just pushing the idea and potential threat of me being scum more than anything else.

Why is me pushing bad? You’ve come across as one of the scummiest players so far.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also,

Why isn’t that townie? I’m trying to get town to accept me and let me lead. I’m town trying to win this game.

And I’ve stood out to you, Bulbazor, Alonzo, and Vorkuta in some fashion, so your point on me blending in because of that is flawed.

As town, I wanna lead. You’re pushing a reason, calling it scum, even when it’s NAI, or even more likely to make sense coming from a town side.

Why do you wanna lead as town? What purpose does that serve? I’ve played that way before and it ends in me being wrong 9 times out of 10. Maybe you’re a better player, but I still don’t see why you need to play that way as town. Sure it’s fun to be in charge, but as town we have to work together with as much information as possible.

And before you say I’m trying to lead by pushing you, well I’ve got a scummy read and I’m sticking to it. Your entire basis is to try to lead because you want to lead. That seems scummy.

[2ndStoryWindow]

2sw hard pockets Alonzo...

How have I pocketed you?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Solid. Good to know you’re just pushing the idea and potential threat of me being scum more than anything else.

Why is me pushing bad? You’ve come across as one of the scummiest players so far.

Why do you assume that as scum I would come across as scummy?

Why isn’t it just my personality for you?

Because you’re wrong. I understand your case and logic. I’m just trying to see if I think you’re coming from a town or a scum mindset putting together a logical case on someone he thinks can be mislynchable.

I never said I’d think you’d come across as scummy if you’re scum. I said I think you’re trying too hard to come across as town, which is scummy.

[2ndStoryWindow]

With your obv town approach so far

Again, how is a gut read a pocket?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Solid. Good to know you’re just pushing the idea and potential threat of me being scum more than anything else.

Why is me pushing bad? You’ve come across as one of the scummiest players so far.

Why do you assume that as scum I would come across as scummy?

Why isn’t it just my personality for you?

Because you’re wrong. I understand your case and logic. I’m just trying to see if I think you’re coming from a town or a scum mindset putting together a logical case on someone he thinks can be mislynchable.

I never said I’d think you’d come across as scummy if you’re scum. I said I think you’re trying too hard to come across as town, which is scummy.

I don't like coming across as town when I'm scum. It gets me into trouble late game.

How does it get you into trouble late game? It seems the opposite would be true

[2ndStoryWindow]

I don’t see how this makes a case for me not wanting to lynch you. As town myself, this is literally an ideal scenario. If I’m wrong and you are town, we’ll get a lot of info. That’s fine, can’t always lynch scum on Day 1. If you are scum, I don’t quite mind the lack of info. We’d be one step closer to winning, and we’d have a few more days, as well as info from nightkills, to rely off of to catch your partner.

Also, claiming you want to be alive is redundant; everyone wants to stay alive.

How would we be lacking info from a scum flip? Why is lynching town a good idea to you?

For the bolded part, my first thought was "wasn't this the guy that was trying to be town hero by saying he'd let himself die?" That post did not sound like you wanting to be alive.

Ok, moving on to the next few new posts. Sorry, just felt the need to point out the bad logic behind this post right here.

That was quite the point: a scum flip is good regardless, even though FL claims we wouldn’t get much info if he flips red. I’m ok with sticking to my initial read. If he flips town, then he flips town. I’m not saying I want to lynch town, but realistically there is a good chance my read is wrong. In such a case, I feel as though we’d get a ton of info from his green flip, which, if we did end up lynching a townsperson, is the best thing we could hope for.

As someone else pointed out, you’re referring to the wrong guy when you claim I was the one who wanted to be a town hero by letting himself die.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Which isn't rolling yet.

OMGUS VOTE: muh316

This vote, even as an OMGUS, seems so random and misplaced it’s nearly comical

[2ndStoryWindow]

So far
bulba: is a little suspect to me
vorkuta: is also slightly suspect but I feel like that could be a miss read
Tag: hasn’t said enough for me to really gain an opinion on them so by them just sitting idle could be scum could be busy
Flicker: I’m getting townie vibes from
same for: muh, Alanzo
And as for flavor he has scum written all over him

I think you missed 2ndStoryWindow; what's your read on him?

Now that you're starting to make reads, why are you still holding on to your RVS vote?

Ahh you’re right I did forget about him whoops. I don’t have any particular reason for holding onto the vote

You still haven’t offered your read on me

[2ndStoryWindow]

Hey, If you want to lose a doc then go ahead

That masterpiece of yours. We’re still waiting on it.

And by masterpiece I mean reads on the entire playerbase please

[2ndStoryWindow]

Welcome to Newbie 1901!

Moderator:

Rob14

Player List:
Emperor flippyNips
Vorkuta
2ndStoryWindow
Flicker
muh316
Guten tag*
(SE) Alonzo
(SE) Bulbazoor
(IC) Flavor Leaf

Bolded

when confirmed.
Prods denoted as a star (*).

Spoiler: Alive

Emperor flippyNips
Vorkuta
2ndStoryWindow
Flicker
muh316
Guten tag
Alonzo
Bulbazoor
Flavor Leaf

Spoiler: Dead

None ... yet!

Vote Count #1.5:

muh316:

Vorkuta, Bulbazoor, Flicker (3)

Flavor Leaf:

2ndStoryWindow, Alonzo (2)

Vorkuta:

muh316 (1)

Alonzo:

Guten tag (1)

Not Voting:

Flavor Leaf, Emperor flippyNips

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-11-25 20:20:00)

This vote, even as an OMGUS, seems so random and misplaced it’s nearly comical

Apparently not anymore- he's at L-2 now

That doesn't change the fact that your vote on him was bad

[2ndStoryWindow]

Don't know why it quoted post 0 up above, please ignore that

[2ndStoryWindow]

Ok then please indulge me- why bad? Has he done stuff to deserve insane townie points in your eyes?

Yes, actually. muh's my best townread. Sure, I'll disagree with his doubt in regards to the doc claim - I for one hopped on the believer's train because he's a noob. But other than that, he's done nothing scummy in my eyes so far.

(If you want my honest opinion, I want Guten replaced because we've asked him repeatedly to give his reads and he decides to pop in and make extremely short posts instead. Regardless, I'd rather not go for him today, for two reasons: I've already expressed my belief in his claim; and, I'd rather let him lurk long enough to get replaced so I actually have a chance to read the slot. When he doesn't post, paired with being new, I see no reason to jump to any reads whatsoever. It's extremely annoying, but yeah.)

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flavour still isn't posting much....

Just like last game- townFL establishes town cred early on then backs off and kind of lurks for the remainder of D1 before the deadline

(IF YOU'RE ALLOWED, because I don't know if you are) Can you link me to this game?

[2ndStoryWindow]

-> Activity Overview, FL = 51 Posts: He has double your posts lol

So is this your last ditch attempt to get the wagon off you? By trying to shift focus away from you and to policy lynch lurkers?
This screams scummy to me

I have a readlist written up, I just want more evidence (posts ) to solidify my position on a few people.
Maybe this will help

VOTE: Emperor

Can you explain the second post better? Because from where I'm sitting these posts seem so much like you're hopping on a bandwagon.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Now that I'm done replying to quotes, here's my two cents:

I'm sticking with my vote on Flavor for now. I'd also be up for a Vorkuta lynch if that's what people want, because as I've mentioned previously, he's my other scumread.

Flicker gives off a really weird vibe. I had him as town as first, but... I don't know. It's not a super strong read, and it's possible I'm being easily fooled by him. If push comes to shove, I'd vote for him as well.

I'm pretty strongly against lynching anybody else today, unless someone can give me a solid reason by the deadline.

I plan on remaining active throughout the weekend, and I encourage you all to check in as much as possible since the deadline looms. However, I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving! Eat turkey, get stuffed, and enjoy time with family and watching football.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Hey, no fair prodding me while I'm asleep!

So, Guten claims doc and Emperor claims VT, both of which I'm inclined to believe for now (Guten just for the possible utility, Emperor based on my read of him as fairly genuine and not scummy). I think maybe we can afford one more claim? After that, I feel like we should just lynch in the claims for sure.

I kind of want to restart the Vorkuta wagon, but I'll stay where I am given the holiday and time constraints.

Can you explain this better? A prime example of my weird vibes on you. From the surface, this seems pretty town; you state your, what I perceive as, genuine opinion and, contrary to how others may view this, hold off on starting a bandwagon due to the holidays. Hey, for the millionth time, I find Vorkuta scummy and I’d follow you on that wagon, and I feel like strong town should push their reads a bit, but it doesn’t seem like Flicker’s holding off in order to evade suspicion.

However, why are you asking for a claim? Not that it’s necessarily scummy to do so, but the way you worded it, “I think we can afford one more claim.”

This late in the day I think it’s best we avoid claims and stick with what we’ve got - for better or for worse.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I'm not asking for a claim from anyone (yet); I'm saying that we could probably afford push one more person to L-1 and get their claim, if we wanted, but no more. Otherwise, I think we'd just have to lynch between Guten and Emperor (which I'd prefer not to do), or I guess lynch without asking for a claim (which seems like even worse form than claiming early, IMO).

(I'll come back and address the other stuff in your post later, I have holidaying to do.)

Why is lynching without a claim worse? Why do you expect someone to claim at L-1?

Here’s the reason why it’s bad: let’s assume two things, that there is a doctor in this game and Guten tag is not it. (This is hypothetical for the purpose of an example.) Let’s say I was the doc, and I was put at L-1 and expected to claim. I’m now put into an unfavorable position for the entire town. Either claim doc and run the risk of getting NKed tonight, or lie that I’m a townie and - while I may save myself as a doc - I can no longer counterclaim late game if need be, and/or I’ve lost a bit of credibility if it comes out I lied. Yeah, lying seems not that big of a deal if played well, but I’d rather not be put in, nor put someone else in, that position.

[2ndStoryWindow]

^ I realize you said, “if we wanted,” but I don’t understand why we would want to, especially since we have two claims already. It just seems redundant/noobish to even bring it up.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Why is lynching without a claim worse? Why do you expect someone to claim at L-1?

It's strong site meta, and generally a good idea, to ask for a claim before you place a hammer vote, in case you've run up a PR. The only time you maybe wouldn't ask for a claim is if there are no PRs (either because it's an all vanilla game or they're already dead) or if there's a specific setup reason that makes claiming useless (example: Watchmen Wanted).

I expect town to claim truthfully because it helps the other townies (especially the one who wants to hammer) figure out if they still want to lynch them and lying is generally bad for town.

Here’s the reason why it’s bad: let’s assume two things, that there is a doctor in this game and Guten tag is not it. (This is hypothetical for the purpose of an example.) Let’s say I was the doc, and I was put at L-1 and expected to claim. I’m now put into an unfavorable position for the entire town. Either claim doc and run the risk of getting NKed tonight, or lie that I’m a townie and - while I may save myself as a doc - I can no longer counterclaim late game if need be, and/or I’ve lost a bit of credibility if it comes out I lied. Yeah, lying seems not that big of a deal if played well, but I’d rather not be put in, nor put someone else in, that position.

If there was a non-Guten doc out there, I'd expect them to have already counterclaimed, because 1) trading a PR for scum is a pretty good deal and 2) doctor's not the strongest PR (relies on being able to guess who scum will kill, which to some extent relies on knowing who scum are). Also, FYI doctors can't target themselves at night (assuming that's what you mean by "while I may save myself as a doc").

For reference, my comment about getting one more claim stems from this comment by the IC of my last Newbie game:

Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier, and was like, I really don't want to push in too many more places today because I don't want to risk outing a PR, but um, that's not a real reason not to just lynch someone because they claimed VT. You lynch who you think has the highest chance of flipping mafia. Generally speaking you don't want to sacrifice dayplay for night play.

There's a limit to this, like if you run 3 people up near the end of a dayphase and don't like how the lynch felt on any of them, and they all claimed, you probably want to be super super super certain that someone out those 3 is mafia, or super super certain that all 3 of them are town, before you push another person to claim. At that point it's probably optimal to just lynch inside the slots that have claimed.

I meant save myself as in not being almost guaranteed to die overnight.

I guess I agree with asking someone to claim. It's just that, all but 1 person (maybe 0 if we don't have another PR) will pretty much claim VT. And while I definitely don't want to lynch our 2nd PR by not making them claim... I don't want both of our PRs to be outed on Day 1, either. Idk man. I definitely don't want to lynch between Guten and Emperor today, though.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Hey Flavor, how strong of a townread do you (still) have on Vorkuta?

[2ndStoryWindow]

^ And I know you're on V/LA, but can you give me a quick recap on your reads list?

[2ndStoryWindow]

I'm fishing/digging for information.
Like for instance: the fact that you'd rather hang me than ask for me to be investigated.
Now that everyone's reads are in, I'm interested in knowing who people want saved/investigated.

You realize that the PRs aren't obligated to listen to you, or aren't obligated to explicitly say who they will be acting on in the night.
So ok- I'll play the 'I'm a newbie, this is only my 2nd game onsite'- now please kindly explain why what I wrote above is invalid and how is it compromising?

Because it gives scum an idea of who is being protected so it defeats the purpose of a protective role. Mafia will just NK someone else.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I’m hopping on the Vorkuta wagon. As I have said many times over, I will not be (potentially) following Flicker on a GT (now resident) or Emperor lynch today. Also, my wagon for Flavor never took off and Vorkuta is the next best thing in my eyes.

VOTE: Vorkuta

L-2

[2ndStoryWindow]

Aight: please remember this for when I flip green

Town-
FL: because I pocketed him- also because he's acting almost in the same way as he did last game as town. Also he has was killed N-1 last game so I'd like it if he made it to D2))
Alonzo & Flicker: their buddying in posts #212-#214 coupled with a desire to get somewhere in the game and their suspicion of me seem town. I'd be distrustful on anyone who doesn't suspect me playing so scummily. Real scum would want to keep me alive early on and use me as a scape goat later in the game. Also my gut says that scum won't buddy in public this early on. However the Alonzo 'turbo' request was slightly problematic- like he's fine with lynching LITERALLY ANYBODY asap instead of even considering a replacement.

Probably town, but distrustful-
Bulba: he's made it obvious from very early on that he distrusts town and it feels like he's very trigger happy. His arguing with me early on scored solid town points with me, but it seems like town bulba is scummy and defensive in nature

Claimed Doctor, so it will resolve itself later-
Hmm- where is our masterpiece?

Scumleans-
Emperor Flippy: Maybe the guy is probably shy, but seems really eager to stay out of the limelight. Given that the guy claims to have IRL mafia experience, I really think town flippy wouod be acting differently.
2ndstorywindow: The way he posts feel like he's trying really hard to get the 'Look at me' I'm so town' sentiment going. Also calling my OMGUS vote misplaced feels like he's trying to cover for his mafia buddy (coming right up
 
Scummier than scumlean-
Muh: the OMGUS vote wasn't really an OMGUS vote. I'm glad bulba and flicker have similar suspicions and put them in words.

(Inb4 you guys accuse me of only saying this because the bandwagon is rolling)

Now for the speculation bits- my gut tells me that Either
-muh trying to push Emperor is bussing OR
-2ndstory is trying to protect muh.

I actually like this post a lot. Finally you seem fully dedicated to advancing the game and explaining your actions. Enough so that I want to do a 180 and trust you. Hope you’re right. Btw my life tomorrow depends on muh’s flip.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: muh

See you on the other side ladies and gents.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I’m not saying it was the best play - it was definitely risky. However, if he took his vote off you I feared with the inactivity we wouldn’t reach a lynch today. I didn’t wanna lynch you and I made that pretty clear. I let my fear of a no-lynch overcome that and maybe I was fooled by Vorkuta. But I also got a strong townread out of his post and if he’s town I think Flavor’s town. I decided to trust them and go against my own better judgement.

I’m gonna be the hot target tomorrow. Hopefully the rest of you see how my townread on muh was correct and I wasn’t protecting him. Throughout the night stage I’ll be doing a reread of the thread and examining everybody, especially those on muh’s wagon. I’m not scum.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I know it’s quite my own fault, but I’m eager for resident to start posting so I can start reading the slot. Can you give us a reads list please?

Otherwise, what an interesting NK. I agree with Flicker, the doc claim could very likely be fake now, but I also don’t wanna jump on that train until we get some posts from resident.

We’re down to 5v2. We basically cannot afford a mislynch today, given our chances to win go way down. Unlike yesterday, I’m up for a no-lynch today if we can’t come to a consensus.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also, as a preliminary reads list for D2: I think scum lie in the realm of {Bulba, Flicker, Emperor, Alonzo}, and I’m giving Flavor a solid townread for now. While I did say above the doc claim could be fake, there’s also me that thinks the slot just isn’t scum. However, even as ‘useless’ as the slot may be, I see no reason (other than the slot being scum) why Guten/resident wasn’t NKed. It would have been a pretty obvious NK, yeah, but it’s an extremely safe one. We get little to no information out of a GT/resident lynch because of the lack of activity, unlike Vorkuta...

While this may be a bit of a reach, I would also like to point out that IF GT/resident happens to be scum, it is entirely possible their partner had to decide for themselves who to kill N1, IF resident hadn’t checked in yet. Pure speculation, but keep that in mind.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also, from my reread of the thread (this WILL be multiple posts. Sorry!):

VOTE: Guten tag for not confirming yet

Voting someone for not confirming seems like setting up for a later push on them solely for not confirming early. Guten sounds pretty genuine so far to me. And look at how Flavor tried to vote me for me voting him. It wasn't a forced and weak push. It was an attempt to gouge your reactions and so far you aren't reacting well. Rapidly anger-voting me when I call you out is not a good thing to do. You got defensive as soon as I started attempting to pressure you.

I don’t like this postnat all. It nags me and Bulba is reaching hard

[2ndStoryWindow]

I was your scum buddy in one of your first scum games on site, If I remember correctly. Haven’t played with you in years.

Can you please find this game and link it?

[2ndStoryWindow]

VOTE: Guten tag for not confirming yet

Voting someone for not confirming seems like setting up for a later push on them solely for not confirming early. Guten sounds pretty genuine so far to me. And look at how Flavor tried to vote me for me voting him. It wasn't a forced and weak push. It was an attempt to gouge your reactions and so far you aren't reacting well. Rapidly anger-voting me when I call you out is not a good thing to do. You got defensive as soon as I started attempting to pressure you.

These stances are

such

reaches, but they strike me as slightly towny, given the game state. I think scum are more likely to be sitting back now, and you stuck your neck out, so alright.

As to why I think those are reaches:

• - Guten literally has 5 words and a vote so far, and two of those words are apologies to the moderator. I don't think you can read genuineness or non-genuiness from those, but even then those seem pretty NAI.
  - Have you considered the possibility that Flavor Leaf's vote on you was also a reaction test? It didn't come across as angry or defensive to me at all.

Pedit: Bulbazoor town read strengthened slightly. (I'm multitasking - poorly - right now, that's why this pedit/post is so delayed.)

Flicker why does/did this seem towny?

[2ndStoryWindow]

yes. if it was on someone I townread. BUt for me, it's natural to get defensive because I know I am town.

This post reaks of scum. “If it was on someone I townread,” in response to “would you say the same if either of their wagons were at L-1?” So Bulba, you’re telling me, a few real life days into the game, fresh out of RVS, you’d only defend your townreads from a quick-lynch? That’s ridiculous unless you’re scum. Firstly, no way you have strong scumreads by then; and secondly, no one should be quick-lynched. Like almost never. But especially not D1.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I don't know if I trust town if they were willing to lynch me as town. It's a part of me to hate being lynched in any case

But there was no way town would quick-lynch you D1. Why were you getting so worked up? inb4 “Because I hate being lynched” well duh, but come on man, we were barely out of RVS

[2ndStoryWindow]

UNVOTE: Bulbazor

Because he said basically "Well SOMEONE has to unvote me because I'm town! Come on, please..."

Not gonna lie, I really felt the genuine ness of it. Is that a solid reason to town read someone? I'm going to say yes. Haha.

You should like it, Bulba. We're both town.

Why were/are you so sure he’s town?

[2ndStoryWindow]

2sw hard pockets Alonzo...

To this day I have a problem with this post. Later on you say it’s because you townread me. Why not just say thatin the first place? Me pocketing you is not the same as you townreading me, so I just don’t get it. We had little interaction beforehand, but somehow I ‘pocketed’ you. Ok

[2ndStoryWindow]

Solid. Good to know you’re just pushing the idea and potential threat of me being scum more than anything else.

Why is me pushing bad? You’ve come across as one of the scummiest players so far.

Why do you assume that as scum I would come across as scummy?

Why isn’t it just my personality for you?

Because you’re wrong. I understand your case and logic. I’m just trying to see if I think you’re coming from a town or a scum mindset putting together a logical case on someone he thinks can be mislynchable.

I never said I’d think you’d come across as scummy if you’re scum. I said I think you’re trying too hard to come across as town, which is scummy.

I don't like coming across as town when I'm scum. It gets me into trouble late game.

How does it get you into trouble late game? It seems the opposite would be true

Late game if I'm town read heavily, have the people on my side, and haven't found scum yet, I'm probably scum. I generally get night killed in those situations or I end up finding at least one scum rather early.

This is why in 13p games, I generally have to go for a perfect scum victory, because that's where my strengths lie as a scum player the most. When I have a team to back me up while I lead.

Ok and I’m not gonna insinuate you’re perfect, plus it was a D1 lynch, but your choice to vote for muh was terrible. As was mine, but I’m not going around saying I have an ability to catch scum early. Also, if my memory serves me correctly, I was the only one with an ACTUAL townread on muh before I took a chance. Sucks to suck at a game you love

[2ndStoryWindow]

I kind of just play, and that’s generally the stuff that gets talked about my play from others.

I was confusing on that one part, you’re right.

Generally, I’ve had players state that if I haven’t solved the game by day 3/4 without good reason, I’m probably scum controlling the game.

I get night killed a lot even when I’m coming across as scummy, if that makes sense. I’m generally a hard lynch, and if players who know me are on the scum team, that’s why i’d be night killed.

I think i worded it better here

Stuff like this is why I wanted you lynched, regardless. I’m still reading through and responding, also Thanksgiving was a thing, but you contributed little to nothing late yesterday, save for your final vote. I asked you for a reads list and you didn’t provide one. Please give one now.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Can we just turbo GT?

Trash post, but I’m not sure what to take from it

[2ndStoryWindow]

VOTE: Alonzo
"Why" you ask?
Well let me tell you a story...

=) I like this guy already

Seems like buddying, especially since Guten never told us his “story”

[2ndStoryWindow]

@Flippy - if you’re a doctor, you can counterclaim Guten. If you aren’t a doctor, just say you aren’t counterclaiming him.

Emperor never did answer this (or more specifically the ask for the ask for a counterclaim), even if it would just be to say no

[2ndStoryWindow]

Had a busy day. Has Guten tag given us the trilogy?

Why didn’t you just read the thread? I’ve no idea what goes on in your real life, but it doesn’t take that long to scroll up and just look for Guten’s name if you’re pressed for time

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flavour still isn't posting much....

Just like last game- townFL establishes town cred early on then backs off and kind of lurks for the remainder of D1 before the deadline

With Vorkuta being town and having played with FL recently, I have to trust things like this. That’s basically why he’s a townread for me

[2ndStoryWindow]

-> Activity Overview, FL = 51 Posts: He has double your posts lol

So is this your last ditch attempt to get the wagon off you? By trying to shift focus away from you and to policy lynch lurkers?
This screams scummy to me

Which is why I said he's

active

lurking. "Active Lurking, also referred to as Fluffposting or Fillering, is the act of posting (thus differentiating it from ordinary Lurking), but the material posted is irrelevant or otherwise useless for scumhunting"

But anyway, I don't want to lynch FL today because he seems like he can be valuable in the long run given his reputation on this site. On the other hand, Emperor is not just inactive, but just scummy overall. No strong opinons, lurking, and staying away from the limelight are major scumtells in my book. He's not just a policy lynch.

Sure, I want to get the wagon off of me and find the real scum especially because the deadline is so close.

Kinda wanna place a vote on Emperor just cause muh had suspicion for him. Alas, it’s not good enough at the moment. I’ll be placing my vote on someone else momentarily when I’m done responding

[2ndStoryWindow]

I want a good logical reason on why muh is town

I held off on responding to this when it came up (mainly because Alonzo asked for a reason he’s scummier than Vorkuta, Bulba replied saying Vorkuta was scummy too, and at the time I wanted Vorkuta lynched), so call me a hypocrite for doing it now, but-

All of muh’s posts were genuine. If you didn’t see it then, I implore you to reread the thread and convince yourself otherwise. The fact that muh was my sure-fire townread and you’ve been pushing him all game earn you my vote.

VOTE: Bulba

[2ndStoryWindow]

R.I.P. this game, killed by Thanksgiving.

Since I won't have much chance to post tomorrow, I'll just say that I'm not as opposed to lynching between Guten and Emperor as I was yesterday. Hopefully we get a replacement for Guten who does something, and Emperor can do something more than just asking about abbreviations (hint: voting), and we can get a lynch today and get back on track D2.

You weren’t opposed to lynching Guten but hope his replacement says something. How will he/she do that if Guten gets lynched?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Ok guys. Why wasn't doc claim killed?

WIFOM or scum, I think. WIFOM, because it was a near-useless slot that claimed in a possibly suspicious way. Scum, because it's a fake claim.

At the moment, I'm tempted to lynch Emperor for being kind of useless, especially as the day progressed. But, like I said, I want to reread the thread, and see if I can find any associatives between pairs.

Why would you lynch Emperor for being useless? I mentioned this above; we can’t afford a mislynch or our chances of winning drop considerably.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Why was vorkuta nked. Wasn't he the other bw that I didn't want to join?

This isn’t alone scummy, but the fact I already find you scummy just makes me think this is you trying to deflect suspicion

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also, as a preliminary reads list for D2: I think scum lie in the realm of {Bulba, Flicker, Emperor, Alonzo}, and I’m giving Flavor a solid townread for now. While I did say above the doc claim could be fake, there’s also me that thinks the slot just isn’t scum. However, even as ‘useless’ as the slot may be, I see no reason (other than the slot being scum) why Guten/resident wasn’t NKed. It would have been a pretty obvious NK, yeah, but it’s an extremely safe one. We get little to no information out of a GT/resident lynch because of the lack of activity, unlike Vorkuta...

While this may be a bit of a reach, I would also like to point out that IF GT/resident happens to be scum, it is entirely possible their partner had to decide for themselves who to kill N1, IF resident hadn’t checked in yet. Pure speculation, but keep that in mind.

This remains *mostly* accurate as of my responses. (This is also my last post of the tirade, btw.)

Honestly, the only thing I would change is my read on Alonzo. Most of his posts are very town to me, except a select few, such as the turbo lynch post. After responding to so many posts and getting a strong read like that on him, I truly forget why I placed him on my scumread list in the first place.

That leaves {Bulba, Flicker, Emperor}. As I’ve done, I remain content with voting Bulba. He’s my best scumread.

Can the rest of you also give your full reads list and let everyone know who you’d be content lynching today with the information we have? Thanks

[2ndStoryWindow]

Ok then please indulge me- why bad? Has he done stuff to deserve insane townie points in your eyes?

Yes, actually. muh's my best townread. Sure, I'll disagree with his doubt in regards to the doc claim - I for one hopped on the believer's train because he's a noob. But other than that, he's done nothing scummy in my eyes so far.

(If you want my honest opinion, I want Guten replaced because we've asked him repeatedly to give his reads and he decides to pop in and make extremely short posts instead. Regardless, I'd rather not go for him today, for two reasons: I've already expressed my belief in his claim; and, I'd rather let him lurk long enough to get replaced so I actually have a chance to read the slot. When he doesn't post, paired with being new, I see no reason to jump to any reads whatsoever. It's extremely annoying, but yeah.)

It’s not a lot, but here’s something. Other than that, I don’t know what you want me to say. Nearly all of his posts seem like he wants to further the game, he was - unfairly - pushed for illegitimate reasons, such as: posting too much fluff (by Flicker), your line where you say muh doubting the doc claim is suspicious, and whoever said his “tone” was scummy.

Hey man, I hammered the dude. I can’t honestly say there isn’t a bit of hindsight. My logic stems from the idea that was my hammer was terrible as and for town, and that my original read, which I should have stuck with, was correct. Therefore anyone who doubted him before the aforementioned lynch is suspicious in my eyes.

[2ndStoryWindow]

^ and by further the game, I mean he dealt with the criticism fairly well, didn’t try to rush through the day, and wanted as much information as possible. That’s towny

[2ndStoryWindow]

You can't assume he was a universal townread or something

But I can assume you’re scum for repeatedly pushing him when he didn’t do anything scummy...

[2ndStoryWindow]

Tell me exactly what made him scummy in your eyes. Please use quotes from the game if applicable

[2ndStoryWindow]

2sw hard pockets Alonzo...

To this day I have a problem with this post. Later on you say it’s because you townread me. Why not just say thatin the first place? Me pocketing you is not the same as you townreading me, so I just don’t get it. We had little interaction beforehand, but somehow I ‘pocketed’ you. Ok

Can we just turbo GT?

Trash post, but I’m not sure what to take from it

You're not wrong, these posts are designed to be a little provocative, whilst also giving a direct tell on where my head is at at any given moment.
I do still TR your entry and push on Flavour, the hard pocket reference was follow up sarcasm from my post about Vork pocketing Flavour like he did, and echoing the sentiments Flavour gave for his read on Vork.

I realise with hindsight these terms are to eccentric for the points I'm trying to make, but they were designed with reaction testing in mind which is my usual D1 MO

Also I see you have 180'd on Flavour based on meta, So tell me what you know.... I'm having trouble sorting Flavour so far.

Well Vorkuta had a townread on Flavor and played with him when he [Flavor] was town before, so, with Vorkuta's flip, I decided to follow that.

I realize it's not absolute truth. But it's something I'm trusting *for now*.

[2ndStoryWindow]

You can't assume he was a universal townread or something

But I can assume you’re scum for repeatedly pushing him when he didn’t do anything scummy...

I did not like his push on the doc claim when he could have been real. How hard is that to understand? I went blind to anything else because that just seemed like something that didn't have to be done.

Exactly, you went blind to everyone else over something trivial. You're pushing way too hard. The doubt on the doc claim was not as scummy or out-there as you make it out to be. Keep in mind, I agree with you. I trusted it. However, that doesn't mean everyone else did or had to.

While there were other people acting more scummy (Vorkuta, who you also had a scumread on; his flip is irrelevant because we didn't have that information before he was NKed), you chose to tunnel muh for a stupid reason.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Here's another thought. Disregard my vote and reads for a moment. What if the scumteam is Emperor + Flavor? They said they knew each irl. With Emperor's lack of posting, all Flavor has to do is make sure he's thrown under the rug the entire game and Emperor's in the clear. As for Flavor himself, well once he buddied up with Vorkuta, he's got/had me set on him being town and probably a few others, too.

This makes me want to lynch Emperor today, and regardless, re-evaluate Flavor (and everyone else) tomorrow. The reason Emperor's flip wouldn't necessarily rule out Flavor is per this post where he says "if I haven't solved the game by Day 3 or 4 and I'm alive, I'm probably scum."

Thoughts?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also, Emperor is currently at L-2, so I'm not going to vote him at the moment.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I never once stated I fosed work though. I am confused as to why you think I fosed him?

I don't like muh's tone. Though I do think vork is scummy too.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I didn't say fos. I said I thought he was scummy.

Fos is a technicality

[2ndStoryWindow]

Yeah I’m starting to lean more towards flicker being scummy over flavor right at this moment

This post rubs me the wrong way. Jumping on a bandwagon much?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Day 2 Deadline:

(expired on 2018-12-06 19:00:00)

Putting this in my ISO for reference/posting it as a reminder for everyone.

@Bulbazoor
@Emperor

Please vote so we can get a better idea of wagons and possible intent/claims.

@2nd

If neither of the above votes in a timely fashion, could you just go ahead and vote Emperor so we can have a better chance at a lynch today? Unless you're still thinking about a no-lynch, which we can keep talking out.

I was thinking about voting him, but I don't like you asking me to do so and pushing everyone else to place a vote. At first I was mostly indifferent to it, but your repetition of it just doesn't seem town.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Although you did mention the no-lynch possibility, which I am up for at the moment.

[2ndStoryWindow]

^ Actually, with further (like 2 seconds, lol) thought, I'm not. If we no-lynch, and scum NK Trekkie, we've gained next to nothing today. I want to lynch.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I'll be making a decision tomorrow. The doc claim still feels genuine and I wonder why flavor has him in his srs?

I mixed that up. My bad.

I’m unsure what I think of the doc claim mixed in with Trekkie’s comments about N1 action.

I still think flicker.

I started town reading Emperor before he started to turn his read around on me.

Here's another thought. Disregard my vote and reads for a moment. What if the scumteam is Emperor + Flavor? They said they knew each irl. With Emperor's lack of posting, all Flavor has to do is make sure he's thrown under the rug the entire game and Emperor's in the clear. As for Flavor himself, well once he buddied up with Vorkuta, he's got/had me set on him being town and probably a few others, too.

This makes me want to lynch Emperor today, and regardless, re-evaluate Flavor (and everyone else) tomorrow. The reason Emperor's flip wouldn't necessarily rule out Flavor is per this post where he says "if I haven't solved the game by Day 3 or 4 and I'm alive, I'm probably scum."

Thoughts?

[2ndStoryWindow]

2nd story, emperor, Bulba are all townie to me. I’ve explained them, but I’ll probably explain it multiple times.

Alonzo hasn’t pinged me as scum, so I’m seeing genuine town there. Could be fooled, but I’m not thinking so.

Leaves Flicker and Trekkie.

I feel Trekkie came in and chainsaw’d me (attacking a person who is attacking a partner), so I could see a Flicker/Trekkie team.

This seems genuine and possible, but I'm not lynching a claimed doc D2.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Out of my (now) 4 lynch possibilities FOR TODAY:

- Flicker: If he flips scum, his partner is either Bulba, or Trekkie. If he flips town, scumteam likely includes Flavor, so that's who I'd vote tomorrow.
- Emperor: If he flips scum, Flavor is most likely his partner, so that's where my vote would land tomorrow. If he's town, I'm absolutely certain Flavor is town and scumteam involves Flicker in some way, who I'd vote tomorrow.
- Flavor: If he flips scum, Emperor is scum, too, and/or Alonzo. If he flips town, Flicker is likely scum. We don't get any "certified" type of read on Emperor, although I'd say Emperor is town if Flicker is scum.
- Bulba: idk what to think of him anymore. If he flips scum, Flicker is probably scum, maybe Alonzo (?). If he flips town, scumteam lies in {Emperor, Flavor, Alonzo}.

To be clear, Alonzo is still a townread for me, but I threw him in there because certain flips change my perspective of the game. Flavor is now null because of his buddying with Emperor.

With that, I VOTE: Emperor. L-1 He gives us the best information today.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I disagree with you on Emperor, I think that slot has scum equity off the back of the lynch on Muh, otherwise I cant really disagree with anything your saying.

My problem is that theres been alot of lurking, and you seem to be townreading players who TR you and Scumreading those who don't.

Could be nothing, could be something.

Well I didn’t vote D1, if I was scum I would of voted for whatever bandwagon would of got a lynch the fastest

Like, this is WIFOM, but it’s genuine as hell.

This is town.

No it’s not. He’s copying your “if I was scum, I’d do this” bullcrap that you’ve constantly brought up throughout the game. It’s not a town move for an experienced player like yourself.

Wanna know why they killed Vorkuta? Because I was Flavor’s biggest critic D1 and he wanted me to trust in him. Now he has the opportunity to play off that and get me to back away. Not happening. And, bare with the setup speculation here, but if one of them is a roleblocker, all it takes is a simple target on Guten for him to be rendered useless.

Flavor, lynch Emperor. Do it buddy

[2ndStoryWindow]

He doesn’t flip scum here.

If you're so sure of that, lynch him anyway. The reality is we're 23 hours from the deadline, and unless you're set on a no-lynch, we're pushing it close. If/when he does flip town, I'll lay off of you tomorrow and vote Flicker. Make sure to let me know your thoughts on Bulba, too, because I feel like he's been flying under the radar much of the day and I'm still not entirely sure what to think of him.

I disagree with you on Emperor, I think that slot has scum equity off the back of the lynch on Muh, otherwise I cant really disagree with anything your saying.

My problem is that theres been alot of lurking, and you seem to be townreading players who TR you and Scumreading those who don't.

Could be nothing, could be something.

Well I didn’t vote D1, if I was scum I would of voted for whatever bandwagon would of got a lynch the fastest

Like, this is WIFOM, but it’s genuine as hell.

This is town.

No it’s not. He’s copying your “if I was scum, I’d do this” bullcrap that you’ve constantly brought up throughout the game. It’s not a town move for an experienced player like yourself.

Wanna know why they killed Vorkuta? Because I was Flavor’s biggest critic D1 and he wanted me to trust in him. Now he has the opportunity to play off that and get me to back away. Not happening. And, bare with the setup speculation here, but if one of them is a roleblocker, all it takes is a simple target on Guten for him to be rendered useless.

Flavor, lynch Emperor. Do it buddy

That doesn’t make sense, if he was scum why not just lynch you? And keep Vorkuta who was already on his side

Because it would have looked bad on him when his biggest attacker flips town, who he counter-pushed to lynch. Also, it's not easy to counter-push as scum when a lot of other players in the lobby have townreads on the player being pushed (in this theoretical case, that would be me).

[2ndStoryWindow]

I’m actually excited to see what comes of this, because I have been hard expecting flippyNips to be scum. I know him in real life, I brought him to the site, told him about the things we can’t talk about in person if I’m near him, and I was soul reading him as scum earlier.

If 2ndWindow ends up being scum, I don’t think flippy is scum. I don’t see him making that RVS vote on a partner.

Also thought I'd leave this here. Make of it what you will.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I disagree with you on Emperor, I think that slot has scum equity off the back of the lynch on Muh, otherwise I cant really disagree with anything your saying.

My problem is that theres been alot of lurking, and you seem to be townreading players who TR you and Scumreading those who don't.

Could be nothing, could be something.

Well I didn’t vote D1, if I was scum I would of voted for whatever bandwagon would of got a lynch the fastest

Like, this is WIFOM, but it’s genuine as hell.

This is town.

No it’s not. He’s copying your “if I was scum, I’d do this” bullcrap that you’ve constantly brought up throughout the game. It’s not a town move for an experienced player like yourself.

Wanna know why they killed Vorkuta? Because I was Flavor’s biggest critic D1 and he wanted me to trust in him. Now he has the opportunity to play off that and get me to back away. Not happening. And, bare with the setup speculation here, but if one of them is a roleblocker, all it takes is a simple target on Guten for him to be rendered useless.

Flavor, lynch Emperor. Do it buddy

That doesn’t make sense, if he was scum why not just lynch you? And keep Vorkuta who was already on his side

Also, if I switched my vote to Flicker, would you join me? A big reason I'm pushing for your lynch right now is because of how close we are to the deadline and I want to convince myself of Flavor's alignment. I'll put that aside if we get a Flicker wagon going fast.

[2ndStoryWindow]

VOTE: Flicker

Also, Alonzo, please join me/us. You're my best townread so I'm asking you to trust me, as I do you.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flavor, I'm gonna be so upset if I'm wrong about you. Please try to get those thoughts on Bulba in before a possible lynch occurs.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Please state intent to hammer so I can claim, thank you. (Although, with the way this game has gone, I almost feel like I should claim now anyway.)

Do it

[2ndStoryWindow]

VOTE: Emperor

Did not expect that...

[2ndStoryWindow]

Unvote: Flavor Leaf

Vote: Emperor

Wow an entrance not to get replaced. Well done sir.

I kid you not I was typing up an unvote because I wanted a moment to think without the possibility of a lynch. I thought Flavor's "He [Emperor] won't flip scum here" could have been hinting at being a cop. And if Guten/Trekkie is really the doctor, Flicker is really the Jailkeeper, then that idea goes out the window. So does him being a rolecop, since we'd be in A2, like Flicker said. I'm really curious what Emperor flips here now.

[2ndStoryWindow]

That's why I said the thing about him being too cute to be a killer in my D2 notes on D1, because I assumed that if Guten's slot was actually the doctor, then they didn't roleblock me (since presumably we're in A2). At some point D1 I panicked and felt like I had to scum it up to avoid the night kill (after Guten claimed? IDK), which explains some of my "bad" play (not all, though; like I said, college is melting my brain).

I'm confused, why would you be getting Roleblocked by the doctor?

Im not sure about this post.

Pedit.. I missed pg 20 entirely

Errr its L-1 I think...

Vote Count #2.3:

Emperor flippyNips:

Flicker, Alonzo, 2ndStoryWindow (3)

Flicker:

Flavor Leaf (1)

Flavor Leaf:

Trekkie99 (1)

Not Voting:

Emperor flippyNips, Bulbazoor

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-12-06 19:00:00)

VOTE: Flicker

Also, Alonzo, please join me/us. You're my best townread so I'm asking you to trust me, as I do you.

VOTE: Emperor

Did not expect that...

Unvote: Flavor Leaf

Vote: Emperor

That's a lynch.

I'm up for compromising on basically any wagon that isn't me at this point (2nd would be more of a worst-case scenario compromise lynch), but I still like my vote on Emperor more than I don't. I'll scan for vote tags in these last few hours of D1, see which way the wind's blowing and if it would be better to move my vote, but otherwise I'm out for the day/game.

Pedit: Yeah, it's my first time rolling TPR and I didn't do a great job, huh?

Pretty sure you're referencing this in your P-edit, but in case you weren't; Trekkie just hammered Emperor.

@Trekkie: If you really are the doctor, please target Flicker tonight. I'm expecting one of you to die, and I'd rather have the Jailkeeper alive who's participating than you who's not. Sorry, not sorry. I want to win.

@Flicker: If Emperor flips scum, please target Flavor. I'm so unsure of him, man. If Emperor flips town, you choose between {Alonzo, Flavor, Trekkie}, from my highest preference (Alonzo) to my lowest preference (Trekkie). The reason I say Alonzo is I have a townread on him, but an Emperor townflip really makes me revisit Alonzo, per process of elimination.

[2ndStoryWindow]

@Rob14

or to anyone else who can answer: (this is completely theoretical) If a jailkeeper targets a mafia member, the mafia team can still kill, correct?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Okay, I have a few thoughts and I'm not sure they're entirely coherent:

1) My immediate instinct is to turbo Trekkie here, since the doctor claim is obviously fake (granted, the other two of you townies have to trust I'm telling the truth), and townies shouldn't have any reason to lie like that.

2) Did they know Bulbazoor was the tracker? If so, why kill him,? B/c doing so reveals the fake claim. (Unless two townies in a row decided to lie about being doctor? Seems

pretty

unlikely.)

2) Since we're in B2 and not A2, so all scum has is a rolecop, I wonder why they didn't kill me? Unless there's some kind of weird WIFOM game they're playing... (Pedit: Oh yeah, clearly this is a game of "who should be believed?")

Also, I did jail Flavor Leaf last night.

Pedit: Wouldn't be surprised if Trekkie's the rolecop, because it makes the lie easier to peddle.

We're not turboing anybody, it's LYLO.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Definitely leaning Flicker.

You still haven't done much of anything since Day 1. Mind actually contributing something Mr. I Want to Lead Town?

[2ndStoryWindow]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[2ndStoryWindow]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Also, for me to be scum, I HAVE to be scum with either Trekkie or Flicker.

I am officially the most townie player in the game at this point.

No you’re not

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also, 2nd story says “we aren’t turboing anybody” then votes in 5p LYLO.

Cuz ur scum

[2ndStoryWindow]

I believe I’m the only player here that doesn’t make sense to be scum now because I’d have to be scum with Trekkie or Flicker. To be fair, this is the case for everyone that to be scum you gotta be wcunmwith Trekkie or Flicker, but unless you think we were all scum theatreing the past days, I like to think I’m in the clear.

You’re not. You can easily be scum with Trekkie. You’re experienced, you know what’s up. Tell Guten to claim doc and Trekkie do the same, they’re in the clear for awhile. There’s risk of a CC, but you’ve said you’re up for a risk sometimes. I find Flicker’s jailkeeper claim to be more genuine at the moment since we lost the possibility of there being a roleblocker (RB could easily fakeclaim JK). You said Emperor would flip town, cool, and I read it as a cop subtleclaim. You could easily be the rolecop and that was free brownie points for you.

To top it all off, my vote sparked this “oh my gosh unvote, the mafia team could hammer, but oh wait, I guess I have to paricipate in the game again since I’m here.”

I’m not actively seeking a turbo nor do I think there will be one because I’ve got my heart set on you being scum. Flicker explicitly advocating for a turbo should not have been said, however. Before you say my vote carries more weight than his words, reread the first sentence of this paragraph.

Lastly, I haven’t forgotten about the “if I’m still alive D3/4 and haven’t figured the game out, I’m probably scum” bit either.

I’m willing to risk my towniness by placing a pressure vote on you right now, and it’s definitely working.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Trekkie/2nd - based on the hasty way 2nd voted, and Flicker’s comments happening after the tracker flip, makes me think 2nd was trying to bail out Trekkie, but didn’t understand we have to go within the two claims. This is the most likely scum pairing where I’m standing right now. If 2nd is town, then that’s a game throwing vote. I actually believe that the “we arent turbo lynching” comment followed by the vote is a scum slip. In their mind, it won’t be a turbo lynch because it can’t be because 2nd would be scum meaning 2nd knows scum can’t end it.

Trekkie/Alonzo - If 2nd is town, then this is the scum team 90% of the time. They’ll likely end whenever Trekkie comes back.

Flicker/2nd - If Trekkie is town, then this is 100% the scum team. 2nd made a hasty vote and it took focus off of Flicker/Trekkie. Flicker could be coaching 2nd in the thread about why 2nd shouldn’t vote, however, Flicker probably would be saying stuff in Mafia thread rather than in game thread. However, I repeat, if Trekkie is town, this is 100% the scum team.

Flicker/Alonzo - If this is the scum team, they could have won by now. This pairing is effectively cleared.

Trekkie/Flicker - remember when is said the 90% chance of Trekkie/Alonzo if 2nd is scum? This is the other 10% chance. If we’re in Column C, then they both could have fake claimed, and this should be given some consideration. If this is the scum team, however, game will end whenever Trekkie comes back.

With this being said, Alonzo putting focus back onto the claims is townie, which is why i don’t necessarily think alonzo is part of the scum team. If he is, well, game’s done because we’d have to lynch his partner correctly today, Trekkie can just end the game as his partner.

I do feel the “we’re not turbo lynching today” is a strong reasoning for why trekkie/2nd is scum.

There’s a reason I’m not voting Trekkie.

First and foremost, I want you gone. (Not personally, you’re a great guy, but as a player.) I have since Day 1 and that has persisted throughout the game.

Second and more logically, Alonzo is my best townread. I realize I could be wrong, but I’ve left him out because I’m trusting my read. That leaves Flicker, Trekkie, and you to pick out 2 scum from. I highly doubt both Trekkie and Flicker are scum together, and you’re the one who could be scum no matter which of the other two is.

[2ndStoryWindow]

How? If you’re town, you’re just game throwing, and hindsight, that’ll be seen. Nothing I can do about that. I’m not really feeling any pressure. I have the entirety of the game mapped out.

You're the one who's been game throwing. You're an IC, so I expect you more than anyone, ESPECIALLY if you're town, to be active as much as possible. That happened Day 1, but where were you Day 2?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Solid game plan.

You’re scum, and that is incredibly obvious to me, and I like that play from you.

Because right now, it doesn’t matter to you if I know you’re scum, because it’s not me that needs to be convinced.

That’s actually solid logic you got there, especially the part where you pander up to Alonzo to try and get him to vote with you.

I'm not asking him nor nodding him to vote with me. I've stated my read on him most of the game. I asked him to vote with me yesterday, but I've done nothing of the sort today.

[2ndStoryWindow]

How? If you’re town, you’re just game throwing, and hindsight, that’ll be seen. Nothing I can do about that. I’m not really feeling any pressure. I have the entirety of the game mapped out.

You're the one who's been game throwing. You're an IC, so I expect you more than anyone, ESPECIALLY if you're town, to be active as much as possible. That happened Day 1, but where were you Day 2?

I was gone for a week and had 4+ games to get back up on, haha, and I came back end of day 2, and was adamantly against Emperor wagon.

We were town reading each other.

I don’t know why you keep pushing this false narrative that I just disappeared. I don’t think i’ve Even been prodded.

"I don't think I've even been prodded," except you have.

[2ndStoryWindow]

You’re not. You can easily be scum with Trekkie. You’re experienced, you know what’s up. Tell Guten to claim doc and Trekkie do the same, they’re in the clear for awhile. There’s risk of a CC, but you’ve said you’re up for a risk sometimes. I find Flicker’s jailkeeper claim to be more genuine at the moment since we lost the possibility of there being a roleblocker (RB could easily fakeclaim JK). You said Emperor would flip town, cool, and I read it as a cop subtleclaim. You could easily be the rolecop and that was free brownie points for you.

If you think my claim is genuine and Trekkie is scum, then why not vote for Trekkie? Pedit: Day 3 LYLO is a day to reexamine all your reads, not to trust yourself - there's a reason I gave that "trust no one" advice before day end yesterday, and it goes back to my first Newbie game, where the winning scum team included a universally townread player.

I’m not actively seeking a turbo nor do I think there will be one because I’ve got my heart set on you being scum. Flicker explicitly advocating for a turbo should not have been said, however. Before you say my vote carries more weight than his words, reread the first sentence of this paragraph.

I wasn't advocating for a turbo, especially given my lack of voting, I was saying it was my immediate reaction.

Also, "your heart set on someone being scum" is a very strange turn of phrase. He's scum or he's not scum, your heart doesn't enter into it.

(Unless maybe you're trying to set him up as scum, aka you're actually scum?)

I’m willing to risk my towniness by placing a pressure vote on you right now, and it’s definitely working.

But you're not risking your towniness, you're potentially risking the game for not just you but the other two of us.

I'm saying I've made up my mind who I want lynched today ("have my heart set on it"), and that's who I feel most confident is scum.

There's always the possibility I'm wrong. I was wrong about Emperor. It's just a game. I've gotten far too involved in the past (in a highly negative way, such as flaming) to over-worry about it. I'm surprised I wasn't lynched or even pressured yesterday because of my hammer Day 1. But I wasn't, I'm here, and I'm trying to win the game as town. I've wanted Flavor gone the entire game, and I'm not gonna sit and pick between two claims.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Oh, I did.

Idk why you chose to bring it up. I said “I don’t think I have been”.

You’re just looking to tear down and little thing. Longer you keep it going, scummier you look out of it.

No because you were so adamant Day 1 about leading town and you posted lots and extremely consistently, even while managing four games. I get that you had a V/LA, but your play Day 2 looks absolutely nothing like Day 1. You waited it out because you knew you could, no one's been following me on your wagon the whole game, so it's a good safe move from you to stay out of the spotlight and not try to force anything after coming back. Dude it's smart, good job, but now you're some superhero that's gonna swoop in and say I'm the scummy one? Nah bro

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flicker, look at my big pairing analysis.

If you’re town, Trekkie/2nd is clearly the scum team, and I’ll vote either.

Solid game plan.

You’re scum, and that is incredibly obvious to me, and I like that play from you.

Because right now, it doesn’t matter to you if I know you’re scum, because it’s not me that needs to be convinced.

That’s actually solid logic you got there, especially the part where you pander up to Alonzo to try and get him to vote with you.

I'm not asking him nor nodding him to vote with me. I've stated my read on him most of the game. I asked him to vote with me yesterday, but I've done nothing of the sort today.

You don’t have to ask someone to vote with you to pander towards them. You gotta make them “want to vote with you” and for them to “come to the conclusion on their own”.

You’re doing well. Keep it up. This is fun.

But you will feel the Third Degree Boon

Does the same thing he accuses me of doing. Cute

[2ndStoryWindow]

Without even reevaluating even though i’m the only one who was trying to not have Emperor lynched.

Alright, lol.

@Flicker - you want Trekkie or 2nd today?

Yeah you said that for free town points. You knew he'd get lynched, he was at L-1 for awhile. Again, it keeps you out of the spotlight.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I don’t know why you keep pushing this false narrative that I just disappeared. I don’t think i’ve Even been prodded.

Actually, the only player left without a prod this game is Alonzo, which I would consider to be slightly towny. But also, people say activity is NAI (even though I've seen a few "sort by post; scum's at the bottom" games), and even if it was AI, I don't think it's strongly AI.

Pedit: I did look at your pairings post, Flavor. It seems pretty good, but I want to go back and reread the thread, too, and do my own pairings analysis from my perspective, just to be sure. I've never been in LYLO in a game I started in, so I want to do my best to get it right.

Also, I think you missed Alonzo/2nd in your analysis?

Pedit2: 2nd, this is a team game, so if you're town, could you please put aside your reasons and unvote, for me and our other teammate?

Pedit3: FMPOV, today we have to lynch Trekkie b/c of the fakeclaim, and deal with his partner tomorrow. But I don't want to rush it.

(Sheesh, I'm having a real hard time keeping up with the thread right now... )

I'm not unvoting. Lynch me for it

[2ndStoryWindow]

I didn’t miss Alonzo/2nd. It physically can’t be the team because of the claiming between you two.

Oh, right, haha, of course.

Without even reevaluating even though i’m the only one who was trying to not have Emperor lynched.

Alright, lol.

@Flicker - you want Trekkie or 2nd today?

Yeah you said that for free town points. You knew he'd get lynched, he was at L-1 for awhile. Again, it keeps you out of the spotlight.

Being the only person advocating against a lynch in no way keeps someone out of the spotlight.

Pedit:

I'm not unvoting. Lynch me for it

Don't think I'm not tempted. If you're town, I'm gonna be so pissed.

Prepare to be pissed. I already am

[2ndStoryWindow]

I don’t like FL and Vork’s flattery. It feels as though they’re using it to buddy up. For now, my VOTE: Flavour Leaf lands here, primarily because it feels like he’s trying too hard to blend in.

This also explains why Vorkuta died Night 1. It bothered 2nd from the beginning, and 2nd decided they were going to hide behind pushing me early on.

Honestly, I can't argue. It's good reason and a good way to pin his death on me without any chance of a defense. If I say I would've killed the claimed doc, you're gonna say Guten/Trekkie's my partner.

Good job. Except you're wrong.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Ok then please indulge me- why bad? Has he done stuff to deserve insane townie points in your eyes?

Yes, actually. muh's my best townread. Sure, I'll disagree with his doubt in regards to the doc claim - I for one hopped on the believer's train because he's a noob. But other than that, he's done nothing scummy in my eyes so far.

(If you want my honest opinion, I want Guten replaced because we've asked him repeatedly to give his reads and he decides to pop in and make extremely short posts instead. Regardless, I'd rather not go for him today, for two reasons: I've already expressed my belief in his claim; and, I'd rather let him lurk long enough to get replaced so I actually have a chance to read the slot. When he doesn't post, paired with being new, I see no reason to jump to any reads whatsoever. It's extremely annoying, but yeah.)

Wanted his partner replaced because he wasn’t doing anything. Also claimed doctor, so that’s something.

Actually, I wanted him replaced because I kept asking the dude for his reads (as were others) and he popped in with one liners and didn't contribute to the game, town or scum. I can't stand that because we've had to rely on 8 people out of 9 for over half-ish of the game.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flavour still isn't posting much....

Just like last game- townFL establishes town cred early on then backs off and kind of lurks for the remainder of D1 before the deadline

With Vorkuta being town and having played with FL recently, I have to trust things like this. That’s basically why he’s a townread for me

Oh, look. Apparently it’s a trend that this is how I play as town, which you commented and agreed with, which is funny you decide to switch and “forget” these things.

I didn't forget. Vorkuta was wrong about muh, so he can be wrong about you. Also, you can easily fake him out Day 1 and kill him so you're confirmed town the rest of the game and don't have to do much until it conveniences you to pop in.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Pedit @ Flavor: If 2nd's scum, why not just bus Trekkie? Seems like the easier scum play IMO.

Pedit2 @ 2nd:

Prepare to be pissed. I already am

What are you mad about?

Mad that I'm always the one who gets pinned endgame. Wonder how many of those times I've been scum? Almost never. When I'm scum I die early

[2ndStoryWindow]

And you didn’t get pinned. You aren’t even being voted.

You came after me, and flat out were asked to Unvote and was said the lynch would be within the claims.

You brought up your reason for going, but it’s the same thing as it would be tomorrow. That’s just lazy playing that you don’t want to figure out and actually game solve between the two claims right now. That’s why you’re being pushed as scum.

But why should I have to game solve the two claims now? There’s another scum out there, and I think it’s you.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Mad that I'm always the one who gets pinned endgame. Wonder how many of those times I've been scum? Almost never. When I'm scum I die early

This sounds like you have more experience than you let on initially ("some experience, but it’s been awhile"). Have you played FM before? If so, where? Can you pin down exactly how long "awhile" ago was?

Yes. This site. 5-6 years ago.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Mad that I'm always the one who gets pinned endgame. Wonder how many of those times I've been scum? Almost never. When I'm scum I die early

This sounds like you have more experience than you let on initially ("some experience, but it’s been awhile"). Have you played FM before? If so, where? Can you pin down exactly how long "awhile" ago was?

Yes. This site. 5-6 years ago.

Interesting.

What was your name? Unless you’re keeping that a secret. I’ve been around that long as well.

I’d prefer not to say.

[2ndStoryWindow]

@2nd

More times than not when I've checked to see who's online over this last hour or two, I've noticed Alonzo's name there. Wouldn't it benefit scum!Alonzo to sit back and watch two townies 1v1 while he twiddles his thumbs and waits for his scum partner to come back and coordinate a quickhammer?

Can you

please

consider the possibility that you could be wrong long enough to unvote?

Fine. That strikes me as odd. I try to shy away from looking at that thing because you never know what’s going on, but it’s still probably in my best interest to unvote.

UNVOTE:

Also, I kind of owe Flavor an apology. Maybe I held a small sense of pride over him seeing as it’s come out that I’m not new. I’d still be up for his lynch, but it’s reasonable to wait it out.

And Flavor, do you have another account besides Boonskiies? I saw you joined in 2014, but I’ve not been active since 2012 I believe. If you do, maybe I’ll remember you.

[2ndStoryWindow]

As for the game, let’s get back to that.

Flicker - I really don’t think he’s scum. I believe the JK claim.
Alonzo - not sure. Waiting for him to post. I think I said if Emperor flips town that opens up the possibility of him being scum. I need to revisit that.
Trekkie - not really believing the doc claim anymore, and I don’t like that hammer yesterday.
Flavor - He opened up the game for scum by saying their best play is to not kill tonight. If he was town, he should have kept those comments to himself so scum possibly kills and makes it almost obvious who they are, assuming Flicker really does jailkeep Flavor tonight. That leaves him and me, or him and Trekkie in a 1v1 tomorrow, both of those he feels confident to win. Also, him asking to be jailed seems suspicious. If he was town, he should be asking Flicker to jailkeep whoever he thinks scum is, not attempting to “confirm himself as town.” Let your play do that

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flicker: So who do you want to lynch today?

[2ndStoryWindow]

I’m declaring

V/LA until this Friday

, because this is exam week in uni. I’ll still be able to post, but I don’t want to be prodded if I go absent for 2 days.

I’m busy at the moment but I’ll be back in a few hours to give my thoughts on the posts above

[2ndStoryWindow]

Definitely leaning Flicker.

Don't see why. She has every reason to be suspicious of me considering I'm not dead after all this time. Of course unless she is a scum trying to reinforce a already existing suspicion that everyone probably has of me.

Wow, you really don't understand the 2d3 setup in Newbie games, do you? (Or you're just pretending, I guess.)

Bulbazoor flipped Town Tracker, which means we can't both be telling the truth about our roles (there's no setup with more than two town power roles). If you were telling the truth, we'd be in C3; but since you're lying (and I think that's pretty obvious to the other townies), we're in B2.

Since there's no logical (or conceivable, TBH) scenario where a vanilla townie fakeclaims doctor, gets replaced twice, the first replacement doesn't post and the second repeats the lie that they're the doctor, you're caught scum.

I guess I appreciate the effort, but it's okay to give up now.

(I mean, the only other possible scenario is moderator error, but I would hope that had been caught early on and we'd have re-rolled or something.)

This post rubs me the wrong way.

“It’s ok to give up now,” idk man, I know what you’re trying to say but that’s against his wincon no matter what faction he’s aligned with. Why should he give up?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Hey just back from dinner, and yes I am in the doghouse for constantly fiddling with my fone all night =)

As such Im gonna slink off now and get some quality time, but this looks fairly cut and dry for today.

I saw this post last night before he made the one below it and it felt like he just came to hop on the Trekkie bandwagon

[2ndStoryWindow]

I'm favouring a Trekkie lynch today.

I'm more Inclined to believe 2sw would be trekkies partner based on their play end of yesterday and start of today, However I'm aware the team of Flavour/Flicker only needs us to Lynch Trekkie today FTW, which they can take all week to do it, they don't need to rush out and vote, which is what I feel like town!Flicker should have done after the flip at daystart. Perhaps the plan is to slowroll a Trekkie lynch.

Paranoid me thinks Flavours sudden bursts of Input(essentially pushing and 180ing) could be him overseeing a Counterclaim and pushing it through with Flicker, against the much less experienced TPR and that 2sw may have been right to push Flicker yesterday. I didn't trust Flavour enough yesterday to follow on Flicker TBH.

So yeah.. I'l vote Trekkie, and If that isn't Endgame then JK me up and we will take another day.

Your logic here is all kinds of tangled.

First, you say that a Town Flicker would have just hopped right on the Trekkie bandwagon. I somewhat agree actually, although her and I had that whole spat about not turboing so that doesn’t make sense.

You mention a possible Flicker/Flavor scumteam but then just somehow agree to vote Trekkie... ???

I don’t really see how Flavor/Flicker could be a thing. Why would Flavor have pushed Flicker yesterday when he didn’t really have to?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Just reread the thread, and my inclination is to jail either 2nd or Alonzo - 2nd b/c he seems like the most likely scum (weird inconsistencies, some odd behavior re: Trekkie's slot, setup spec that seemed designed to get me to trust the doctor claim, aggro in a way I've seen scum be before) or Alonzo as middle-of-the-road and a better strategic town clear ("sort by post count" scum, if I'm wrong he has more material to work off to sort between the other of you two and I trust him more to win the game (sorry, 2nd)).

@Flavor

: What do you think? Which one would you jail, in my shoes?

If I changed my mind and linked some of my previous games where I was just as aggro as town, would you reconsider your read on me?

My wacky play is less uncommon from me than you might think.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Just reread the thread, and my inclination is to jail either 2nd or Alonzo - 2nd b/c he seems like the most likely scum (weird inconsistencies, some odd behavior re: Trekkie's slot, setup spec that seemed designed to get me to trust the doctor claim, aggro in a way I've seen scum be before) or Alonzo as middle-of-the-road and a better strategic town clear ("sort by post count" scum, if I'm wrong he has more material to work off to sort between the other of you two and I trust him more to win the game (sorry, 2nd)).

@Flavor

: What do you think? Which one would you jail, in my shoes?

Also, I know Flavor’s the IC, but you have him have had some weird moments today. Certainly there have been times where you seem to buddy up, and this post is one of those times.

I just said Flavor/Flicker doesn’t make sense, but this is just something I have to point out. Anyone else get the same vibe?

[2ndStoryWindow]

*You and him

[2ndStoryWindow]

Trekkie/2nd - based on the hasty way 2nd voted, and Flicker’s comments happening after the tracker flip, makes me think 2nd was trying to bail out Trekkie, but didn’t understand we have to go within the two claims. This is the most likely scum pairing where I’m standing right now. If 2nd is town, then that’s a game throwing vote. I actually believe that the “we arent turbo lynching” comment followed by the vote is a scum slip. In their mind, it won’t be a turbo lynch because it can’t be because 2nd would be scum meaning 2nd knows scum can’t end it.

Trekkie/Alonzo - If 2nd is town, then this is the scum team 90% of the time. They’ll likely end whenever Trekkie comes back.

Flicker/2nd - If Trekkie is town, then this is 100% the scum team. 2nd made a hasty vote and it took focus off of Flicker/Trekkie. Flicker could be coaching 2nd in the thread about why 2nd shouldn’t vote, however, Flicker probably would be saying stuff in Mafia thread rather than in game thread. However, I repeat, if Trekkie is town, this is 100% the scum team.

Flicker/Alonzo - If this is the scum team, they could have won by now. This pairing is effectively cleared.

Trekkie/Flicker - remember when is said the 90% chance of Trekkie/Alonzo if 2nd is scum? This is the other 10% chance. If we’re in Column C, then they both could have fake claimed, and this should be given some consideration. If this is the scum team, however, game will end whenever Trekkie comes back.

With this being said, Alonzo putting focus back onto the claims is townie, which is why i don’t necessarily think alonzo is part of the scum team. If he is, well, game’s done because we’d have to lynch his partner correctly today, Trekkie can just end the game as his partner.

I do feel the “we’re not turbo lynching today” is a strong reasoning for why trekkie/2nd is scum.

There’s a reason I’m not voting Trekkie.

First and foremost, I want you gone. (Not personally, you’re a great guy, but as a player.) I have since Day 1 and that has persisted throughout the game.

Second and more logically, Alonzo is my best townread. I realize I could be wrong, but I’ve left him out because I’m trusting my read. That leaves Flicker, Trekkie, and you to pick out 2 scum from. I highly doubt both Trekkie and Flicker are scum together, and you’re the one who could be scum no matter which of the other two is.

I'm favouring a Trekkie lynch today.

I'm more Inclined to believe 2sw would be trekkies partner based on their play end of yesterday and start of today, However I'm aware the team of Flavour/Flicker only needs us to Lynch Trekkie today FTW, which they can take all week to do it, they don't need to rush out and vote, which is what I feel like town!Flicker should have done after the flip at daystart. Perhaps the plan is to slowroll a Trekkie lynch.

Paranoid me thinks Flavours sudden bursts of Input(essentially pushing and 180ing) could be him overseeing a Counterclaim and pushing it through with Flicker, against the much less experienced TPR and that 2sw may have been right to push Flicker yesterday. I didn't trust Flavour enough yesterday to follow on Flicker TBH.

So yeah.. I'l vote Trekkie, and If that isn't Endgame then JK me up and we will take another day.

Your logic here is all kinds of tangled.

First, you say that a Town Flicker would have just hopped right on the Trekkie bandwagon. I somewhat agree actually, although her and I had that whole spat about not turboing so that doesn’t make sense.

You mention a possible Flicker/Flavor scumteam but then just somehow agree to vote Trekkie... ???

I don’t really see how Flavor/Flicker could be a thing. Why would Flavor have pushed Flicker yesterday when he didn’t really have to?

Just reread the thread, and my inclination is to jail either 2nd or Alonzo - 2nd b/c he seems like the most likely scum (weird inconsistencies, some odd behavior re: Trekkie's slot, setup spec that seemed designed to get me to trust the doctor claim, aggro in a way I've seen scum be before) or Alonzo as middle-of-the-road and a better strategic town clear ("sort by post count" scum, if I'm wrong he has more material to work off to sort between the other of you two and I trust him more to win the game (sorry, 2nd)).

@Flavor

: What do you think? Which one would you jail, in my shoes?

Also, I know Flavor’s the IC, but you have him have had some weird moments today. Certainly there have been times where you seem to buddy up, and this post is one of those times.

I just said Flavor/Flicker doesn’t make sense, but this is just something I have to point out. Anyone else get the same vibe?

Also, I gotta call myself out. These three posts contradict each other. I'm gonna go back and read Flavor's posts from yesterday to help solidify my thoughts.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Does a no-lynch end the game?

It's extremely risky, but I don't actually think we're in LYLO.

If we no-lynch, we enter the night with 3 town and 2 scum. There's a 1/4 chance Flicker targets the correct mafia member and prevents the kill, which would still leave us in a 3:2 T:S ratio.

[2ndStoryWindow]

“It’s ok to give up now,” idk man, I know what you’re trying to say but that’s against his wincon no matter what faction he’s aligned with. Why should he give up?

Caught scum give up constantly on MS from what I've seen. I'm not gonna spell out why, because I'm not gonna give advice to scum during a game, but I don't think its anti-wincon to accept that you got caught out in a fakeclaim and you're gonna be the day's lynch.

If I changed my mind and linked some of my previous games where I was just as aggro as town, would you reconsider your read on me?

My wacky play is less uncommon from me than you might think.

From someone who said "It's just a game. I've gotten far too involved in the past (in a highly negative way, such as flaming) to over-worry about it," this offer (which I'm assuming is hypothetical, but still) seems strange to me. And I don't know if it would change my mind, especially given the time gap.

Also, I gotta call myself out. These three posts contradict each other. I'm gonna go back and read Flavor's posts from yesterday to help solidify my thoughts.

I don't know if this is end of semester brain melting or LYLO induced confusion, but either way you have my sympathies. This also leans me away from jailing you more now.

I see why my proposal seems strange, but granted I'm still trying to win here. I've played decently (for me), except the hammer D1, until the beginning of today when I messed up. I used to worry about my mistakes and flame people until I did get lynched for it. That's not what I'm doing here.

I'm trying to make a point that my inconsistencies are a result of my personality and playstyle rather than indicative of me being scum. IIRC, I play(ed) much less aggro as scum.

I'm not scum and I don't want you to waste a jail on me. Asking not to be jailed can be seen as scummy, but at the same time realize where I

could

be coming from as town. I'd much rather you jail whoever you think scum is than jail me. And, although you've just said you're leaning awhile from jailing me at this point, I'm attempting to save my own butt from getting lynched tomorrow as town, and prove to you now of my towniness so you won't question it tonight when making the final decision.

Why? The first person Flavor is coming after tomorrow (if there is one) is me. I directed it at you because you're the jailer and ultimately your thoughts matter

now

, while his matter

tomorrow

. He can still read whatever I link and come to his own conclusion.

[2ndStoryWindow]

In fact, here it is. I was a townie with an annoying little girl 'condition,' which essentially means I had to post in this annoying text. Other than that, I had no special powers. IIRC, I fakeclaimed 1-shot vig and eventually got lynched Day 7. We ultimately lost in an endgame scenario.

I know there was a game where I was scum and I got killed by Day 2, but I can't find it.

If you wish, just go to my old profile and click "view user's topics." Use that to browse through my completed games. Be warned, it and my posts are a mess.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Does a no-lynch end the game?

It's extremely risky, but I don't actually think we're in LYLO.

If we no-lynch, we enter the night with 3 town and 2 scum. There's a 1/4 chance Flicker targets the correct mafia member and prevents the kill, which would still leave us in a 3:2 T:S ratio.

Yeah, no, we're not doing this. I can't tell if this is town ridiculousness or a scum gambit, but I highly doubt you could get any two other people on MS to bite on this plan, much less two other people in this game.

1) Not lynching scum when you have the chance is extremely ridiculous.
2) Risky is an understatement. I'm not confident I'd win that game of WIFOM, having modded a game where the PR had one chance to get things right a night and batted nothing (no shade to Nauci if she's reading this, I doubt most of us would have done better). Even if I knew with confidence who Trekkie's partner was, that's still a 50/50 chance, plus if scum wins the guessing game ("who would Flicker target?" vs "who would they think I wouldn't target?") then it

is

LYLO after all.

Why? The first person Flavor is coming after tomorrow (if there is one) is me. I directed it at you because you're the jailer and ultimately your thoughts matter

now

, while his matter

tomorrow

. He can still read whatever I link and come to his own conclusion.

I mean, if you want to link it for Flavor's sake, go ahead, but don't do it on my account. It just seemed to contradict your "I'm not worrying about this game too much" stance.

The reason I brought up the no-lynch scenario was not me advocating for a no-lynch. I was thinking whether scum have any incentive to vote, seeing as they could just wait out the day and win (primarily because of all the inactivity). However, this isn't true, so if they want to win today, they'd have to force a mislynch. We're in a weird MYLO.

I'd also prefer if you read it, too. I want you to jail Flavor tonight.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also, if either of you are interested in going theough my history, look at my other town games. More often than not I was left alive late until i got lynched for acting stupid/scummy.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Sooner this game Ends the sooner I can join some new games.

Just vote already people.

No that’s a terrible reason

[2ndStoryWindow]

Maybe, but I'v seen enough.

You post like you know there's no way Trekkie is Town here, and you constant refusal to vote and suggest everything but tells me its game over.

There's still over half the day left (4 real life days) and I was recently asked to unvote. Why would I vote Trekkie at this very moment?

Yes, he's probably gonna be who everyone votes, including me, but chill out

[2ndStoryWindow]

VOTE: Trekkie99

I'm jailing Alonzo. If I'm wrong, good luck tomorrow.

Scum are never killing tonight anyway so you won't learn much

I really want to vote you right now, Alonzo, this comment seems so scummy. It’s as if you’re subtly asking him
not to be jailed

[2ndStoryWindow]

How is that my preference? I’ve definitely stated Flicker is a townread.

Also, why would you vote Flicker if you didn’t want to be jailed? What purpose would that serve for you, as either faction?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flicker, can you remind me why you voted muh Day 1?

[2ndStoryWindow]

So why are we waiting?

I want more discussion before I decide to hammer.

[2ndStoryWindow]

To be honest, it’s just kind of circular logic at that point. I don’t think it’s every not a no kill.

Agreed. Even if we did play that game, what happens on the final night if you accidentally jailkeep scum or their intended target? It's not in our interest as town to no-lynch.

I had the pleasure of reading one of Flavor's recently completed Newbie games where he was town. His play, in honesty, seems similar here.

I also went back and looked at Alonzo's posts, and it genuinely seems like he may have been pocketing me (even when he said I was doing that to him).
The problem I have with Alonzo being scum, however, is his early voting of Guten Tag on Day 1. Why would he vote his partner so early when he didn't have to?

I'm completely open to thoughts, and Flicker, your opinion means the most to me, as it should to everyone else. Flicker is confirmed town at this point.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Do you want to vote? That would leave the decision up to Flicker, since Alonzo won't lynch himself.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Also, I'm curious why you aren't going after me right now. What changed from yesterday?

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flicker is conf town because of the role cop flip proving we are in the second column.

I’m going to want some more time to think over which of you two is scum, but I’m leaning Alonzo. 2nd flipping on me rather than pushing me was townie. Alonzo has been semi fence sitting all game.

Also, I had a read earlier that stated I thought that Emperor and Alonzo has 1 scum within them.

That's fine with me.

Also, note to Flicker, please abstain from voting until two out of us remaining 3 have come to a consensus. Since you are known to be town, your vote should be the last to prevent scum from hammering.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Well nothing much is going on here.

Flicker, I’m still waiting on your thoughts you talked about a few posts up.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flicker, if we lynch Flavor today, would you jail Alonzo tonight?

I still wanna do a meta read on Alonzo. It’s 4:30 am and I’m exhausted, so that will happen tomorrow. For now, I have an intent to vote Flavor.

I know I meta cleared him at the beginning of the day, but I can’t stand trying to read him. All the

events

of the game indicate him being town, but I feel like there’s always the chance he’s tricking us.

If we lynch Alonzo, he knows Flicker will jail me and he’ll win.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I feel like I have a pretty open and shut case on 2sw after the last day and a half.

Would you care to post it?

Hows the case on the Trekkie/Alonzo scum!team coming along?

should be a great read...

This just doesn't feel like a very towny thing to say.

I can pull up a few posts sure. If I sound frustrated it's because I honestly once I'm gone I don't know who to advise you jk right now, and as such I'm reluctant to say it's 100% 2sw, as I feel there's a good chance Flavour could be the sinister one, his TMI 2sw town read and his leaning towards alonzo/trekkie is bothersome.

I know I’m digging my own grave here, but you still haven’t done this

[2ndStoryWindow]

Flicker, if we lynch Flavor today, would you jail Alonzo tonight?

I still wanna do a meta read on Alonzo. It’s 4:30 am and I’m exhausted, so that will happen tomorrow. For now, I have an intent to vote Flavor.

I know I meta cleared him at the beginning of the day, but I can’t stand trying to read him. All the

events

of the game indicate him being town, but I feel like there’s always the chance he’s tricking us.

If we lynch Alonzo, he knows Flicker will jail me and he’ll win.

False.

I’m town.

So i would win because I’m town in that situation.

Can you like not? Stop trying to shove down our throats how town you are. I'm playing from my perspective and I still don't trust you, regardless.

I'm running this through my head...

Okay, so if Alonzo is scum, he has to push either me or Flavor. Either way, he'll probably lose, since Flicker is likely to jail him tonight. However, I think Alonzo going after Flavor today gives him the best chance tonight, since Flicker may decide to jail me instead (no way Flicker jails Flavor if I was lynched).

If Flavor is scum, he could push for either of our (Alonzo, me) lynches. If I'm lynched, Flicker would still jail Alonzo, and if Alonzo's lynched, Flicker would probably jail me. (he [Flicker] said otherwise now, but he literally just said that, so Flavor wouldn't have known)

It seems to point at Alonzo being scum, but there's too much up in the air for me to trust Flavor. Besides, the only reason it points to Alonzo being scum is Flavor has the choice to push whoever, so it can never really be definitively said he was acting scummy. Only something a great scum player could pull off.

VOTE: Flavor

[2ndStoryWindow]

Town

Flavor
2nd
Alonzo

Scum

That's my reads list. I'd prefer to lynch Alonzo, but I guess I'd lynch 2nd if an Alonzo lynch doesn't come together in time. I really don't see myself lynching Flavor today, especially because if Flavor flips town, I wouldn't have as much confidence jailing between 2nd and Alonzo.

If we lynch Alonzo --> Alonzo's town --> I jail 2nd
If we lynch 2nd ---> 2nd's town --> I jail Alonzo

If I'm wrong and it's Flavor, good game, you deserve the win.

Can't you see he's kissing your butt SO hard on this page? Him repeatedly saying "I'm town!" doesn't make him town.

[2ndStoryWindow]

Can't you see he's kissing your butt SO hard on this page? Him repeatedly saying "I'm town!" doesn't make him town.

I can't make heads or tails of almost

anything

the three of you have done today, so I'm basically just ignoring it. Otherwise, I'm lost, because y'all look scummy for different reasons.

If town loses, it's on me. Now, the only way you're lynching Flavor today is if you can get him to self-vote, so either persuade him to do so or consider voting Alonzo instead.

No, it’s on me for my poor play yesterday.

How am I scummy right now?

[2ndStoryWindow]

And hey Flavor, remember you said to go ahead and lynch you? Yeah self-vote please

[2ndStoryWindow]

And hey Flavor, remember you said to go ahead and lynch you? Yeah self-vote please

Yeah, that’s when I thought for certain Alonzo was the scum, but you pushed me meaning that youre actually the scum.

I was baiting this out of you. It’s the only win path you had available to you as scum.

@Flicker/Alonzo - you see why that makes 2nd scum, right?

Again, you’re free to push whoever you want because no matter what, as long as you’re not lynched todah, you win. Of course Alonzo and I have to play according to what we’d do as scum, otherwise, we lose anyway.

Try seeing it from my persective. I’m town. Would I rather lynch someone who I know will be jailed tonight, or someone who’s basically in the clear tonight? One of those 2 has to be scum btw. Obviously I have to push you, no matter my alignment.

[2ndStoryWindow]

And hey Flavor, remember you said to go ahead and lynch you? Yeah self-vote please

Yeah, that’s when I thought for certain Alonzo was the scum, but you pushed me meaning that youre actually the scum.

I was baiting this out of you. It’s the only win path you had available to you as scum.

@Flicker/Alonzo - you see why that makes 2nd scum, right?

Again, you’re free to push whoever you want because no matter what, as long as you’re not lynched todah, you win. Of course Alonzo and I have to play according to what we’d do as scum, otherwise, we lose anyway.

Try seeing it from my persective. I’m town. Would I rather lynch someone who I know will be jailed tonight, or someone who’s basically in the clear tonight? One of those 2 has to be scum btw. Obviously I have to push you, no matter my alignment.

I disagree. As town, you could just see Alonzo is scum.

You pushing me is just going to end up with your lynch first, which same outcome, town wins, so I guess if you’re town, that works too.

But if you’re town, lynching Alonzo would also win the game for you.

Why would I take the risk as scum to push you and get myself lynched? I could just accept his lynch, and blame a no kill tonight on you faking it the entire time. Keep in mind that’s entirely possible no matter who we lynch today, btw.

[2ndStoryWindow]

I was VT so gl town