Newbie 2061 | Views of Tallinn | Town wins

[catboi]

Hello! (*●⁰ꈊ⁰●)ﾉ

VOTE: pearofclubs

So sad you had to draw mafia on your first game back~ (▰˘︹˘▰)

[catboi]

Umm "I think there's at least one mafia between Meuh, Norweegian, and iN3kor" When I play mafia, I usually narrow down to a group of people that all act differently(this could be just the person but...). At that moment, I though meuh was quite odd because of how they had some interesting early town reads, then also Norweegian I thought was constantly talking about somewhat random mafia-ish topics(distracting?), and iN3krO is just kinda coasty(maybe only at the moment idk) So...

What's suspicious about having "interesting early town reads"? Can you give an example of Norwee talking about random topics?

VOTE: Vote: Catboi

So Catboi, what do you think about Toriii's train of thought?

Why are you asking me in particular about her reads?

[catboi]

VOTE: catboi

I'd rather apply pressure here, especially since Pear is someone I generally townread.

On the one hand, I don't respond well to pressure as town. On the other, openly saying you're pressuring me isn't actually going to mae me feel anything. What were you hoping to accomplish here. And why do you generally townread pear?

Catboi do you have time not as often..? Or do you only enter when you see people talking about you..?

Largely a coincidence. I didn't have time to post last night and the game wasn't that interesting, I was busy most of the day and only came back just now. I was typing up a post when pear posted. I have a few thoughts on the game that I'm holding back for now as most of my reads are fairly weak. (⌯͒ᵕɪᵕ⌯͒)zzZ

[catboi]

๑•́ㅿ•̀๑) ᔆᵒʳʳᵞ

My head hasn't been in the game. Let me catch up.

[catboi]

I uhh still don't get quoting...

I found the "interesting early townreads" sus by meuh because at that point there really wasn't anything indicative about those people unless meuh was meta reading so idk...

Ok, maybe Norwee's earlier conversations were just maybe just starting the game things, but I'd like them to speak more now-ish.......

I like pearl's reads and catboiiiiiiiiiiii (sorry i couldn't resist) seems rather defensive of people so maybe a potential partner of one of them?

I think Catboi's criticisms of what you pointed out were pretty reasonable tbh, didn't feel really that defensive of anyone but I was one of the people he "defended" so ig I'm not to be trusted on that topic

There wasn't too much indicative but I think page 3 is late enough to start establishing my thought process.
I like to be very open with other players, so that means pointing out where my head's at, even at points where maybe I should let ideas sit a bit longer or wait for more content.

Also being a bit off topic on the first few pages is usually fine, since at that point there's not much to do except wait for everyone to show up anyways.

You quote by pressing the quote button, it's mostly used to respond to posts more directly, makes it easier for other people to follow, and makes reading back on players' posts in isolation a fair bit easier.

TBH, I'm not really trying to be "critical" or Toriiii, I'm just trying to get her to elaborate on her thought process. It's very unlikely I'm going to think the way she does, but I can look at her explanations and ask myself whether they seem plausible or not. As for how I feel about those answers? Eh. There's a little bit of cautios language in the answers I don't really like, the "idk", the "ok maybe", I would expect a newer player to not be confident in their reads early in the game but the immediate concession when questioned feels like she's too quick to give up ground, which makse me feel like those reads might not be coming from a real place.

[catboi]

inkro + Sudowoodo?

I don't know. Upon rereading a bit I'm really not liking Catboi for 102.

1. A little too dismissive of Meuh's post.
2. Suggesting that he isn't responding to the thread because it wasn't interesting enough.
3. Suggesting that it was bad timing, he was busy, but now he's not and didn't stick around.
4. He was "typing up a post when (I) posted" but didn't follow that up with anything.
5. He hasn't answered any questions or provided any insight to the thread.

I'm still not happy with Ink, especially since he's been away so long, but I think VOTE: Catboi needs this more.
Since you're so interested in why people townread me, I'd actually like to hear what you think of my slot? Or, y'know, anything you'd want to talk about?
The thread might be more interesting if you were around more!

Er, the post I was typing up

was

the one you got. I didn't have anything more to say at the time. Is being disinterested scummy to you?

[catboi]

First of all

FRIDAAAAAAY

I couldnt play yesterday because work and personal stuff, so apologies.

About my spanish, im not going to rely more about that kind of excuse in the future. I dont want to get this topic dirty. We need clean interactions, not excuses or meta stuff about the players.

But, i have to say thanks to that, there were some reactions worth to mention because, if i were mafia, to take advantage of that and maaaybe join the "push" (because i dont think it was a proper push) would have been the logical play but, not in this kind of game. So, for me, the more townies atm for me are Not_Mafia and Norwegian atm.

I see you think those people are townie. Is there anyone you suspect at the moment?

[catboi]

@Not_Mafia:

thoughts on Tori?

@Samawoodo:

thoughts on Catboi?

@Tori:

thoughts on Marci and Sama?

@iN3krO:

thoughts on Sama and Tori?

@NorwegianboyEE:

Could you explain how your read on Sama evolved from #68 to #125?

@Marci:

Thoughts on Tori?

@Pearofclubs:

Thoughts on Marci and Sama?

@Catboi:

Thoughts on N_M and Norwee?

I'm going to pointedly refuse to answer this and instead ask why you felt the need to ask everyone about different people.

[catboi]

VOTE: in3kro

Says he wanted to read more of me but didn't actually answer my question to him, says he's reading the other posts but doesn't add anything except a single question to samawoodo, and *gulp* I think him latching on to norwee talking about policy voting N_M early on isn't a great look.



(also, for the record, my poke at pear in RVS wasn't "fluff". An accusation, even an unserious one, can be useful for reactions. I think pear reacted in a fine way, read natural, although I would've liked to follow up on it more, but, well, didn't have the time, oops~)

[catboi]

Ok i didnt read this when i wrote my previous post

I dont see the point of that tbh, i mean, is not like he asked you for a 2v2 or something like that (anyway, that wouldn't be a problem either). Is like you are being so defensive without reason (We are at D1 still)

If someone ask about my thoughts, i wouldnt have any problem sharing them

I hope you are not afraid of sharing them

It's not like it would be particularly difficult to answer that question as scum, indeed if my focus were simply on pleasing people I'd answer straight away and be done with it.

speaking of not answering questions, though - you didn't answer mine. Is there anyone you currently suspect?

I asked everyone about people I wanted them to elaborate their read on, so either people they haven't or barely have mentioned/interacted with so we can build a fuller picture of the game, I feel like the partners are probably not interacting much, so asking these questions could help bait out scum/scum interactions, which would probably be pretty great.

I ask because it struck me as the sort of move that is designed to appear like someone is being helpful on the surface but is largely directionless and accomplishes nothing, a maneuver I've attempted as scum before. I don't think asking people for opinions on others based on putting names together seemingly at random accomplishes much.

---

I find myself with several people I fos, and not much in the way of townreads.

[catboi]

Being disinterested? No, although you engaging more could have made it more interesting for all involved.
Barely participating? A bit. You made one RVS post and then vanished. That's not good.
You've also been acting fairly defensive, not answering questions, not sharing your thoughts. Not townie behavior.
You can argue semantics about it not being fluff if you like, but you didn't stick around to do anything with any reactions that you might've gotten.
But it's still very early

Again, though, you can say me being inactive is

not good

or

unhelpful

, but that doesn't really cross the bridge to be

being scum

, does it? Focusing solely on someone's activity is unfortunately a poor method of finding scum, sometimes there are players who lurk because they have a hard time faking it, but other times people are just naturally disinterested. (granted, my last scumgame offsite, I was miserably frozen and flaked out, but I don't think I'd have that problem here because it's so much slower paced).

I think "defensive" is a term that gets thrown around whenever someone bothers to defend themself, at all, which is a fairly natural thing in a game of mafia. It's an accusation that has very little meaning. Why do you see my not answering qusetions as scummy? It's a very easy thing to comply with the requests of others if I were scum, and that's probably what I'd be doing. But if I feel like I'm getting asked a question that's useless or suspect I'm going to uestion them instead. I can understand your frustration with me not simply plopping down a reads list but most of my thoughts right now are half-formed, I'm still in the process of feeling hings out. In my previous post, I was going to give some townreads then when I went back to reread people, I doubted myself and deleted that part of my post. I don't like making statements that amount to "eh, could go either way, who knows"

[catboi]

While I appreciate the defense, I'm not too bothered by the votes on me right now. Why do you think I'm towntelling?

[catboi]

@catboi If you answer me with another question I don't really feel like answering ya. I don't think it's a coincidence that you and NM are voting me, though I think it's quite reactive and doesn't indicate aligment of either of you.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Also, if you want more out of me then why avoid giving me an answer? Do you actually care about the question you asked me?

In3kor why do you scumread Catboi?

Right now I don't, I just wanted to read more from him (and i said it 2 times before voting him). Problem is I'm not scumreading anyone T-T

I'm townreading Pear though

Is pear your only read?

[catboi]

i still have schoolwork to do, but I think its so true that the scum are probably happy with the state of this game, because its slowed down so much.. I expected more posts while I was doing my stuff but its barely anything yall busy?
I remember in my past games, the solutions were just to end phase.. should we do that..? or do we push inactives to give more of their opinions?

I do think we need to move to consolidate votes on someone and get a wagon going. I want to catch up and try to get a full readlist out first, though.

[catboi]

I'll get to it tomorrow morning. Sorry, don't have the time or energy tonight

[catboi]

Why do I see you not answering questions as scummy?
Because being unwilling to post much makes it seem like you're being careful about what you say and what you don't, like you care about your appearance more than being helpful and progressing the game. Could just be your playstyle, but I won't ignore when something pings me.

Is it 'very easy' to comply when you're scum? I don't know about that. It seems, to me at least, that pretending to make observations and give your feelings on the state of the game would be harder than honestly doing so.

I think if I cared about appearances I'd be more willing to answer anything thrown my way rather than being obstinate and doing my own thing. I find it easier to manufacture observations than make real ones but I realize this is the opposite for most players.

Still working on reads.

[catboi]

iN3krO, quick question: you mentioned something about the phases being long, I assume you have experience playing elsewhere?

[catboi]

iN3krO

- This is a very slight read, but I actually like him saying he's not scumreading anyone in 208. Maybe I'm a sucker who's being baited by a sad face emoticon. I kind of think I don't want to vote him?

NorwegianboyEE

- I think him starting with wanting to policy N_M (27) but backing down in 67 and giving him credit for saying things is probably indicative of a town mindset. Although pushing for a vote on n_m is >rand scum from recent experience, coming out the gates with a policy vote is likely to be unpopular and nlikely to accomplish anything, and the fact that he was willing to re-evaluate suggests he's not pushing it just to push a mislim. I also like him talking about looking at Meuh's previous towngames in 160. His spirited defense of me in 194 is a bit surprising but I can buy it coming from someone with some prior experience with me. I'm all right with calling him a townread at this point.

Pearofclubs

- I will agree toward the general townreads on them, their general approach does feel problem-solvey. Reaction to my early RVS sass was okay, approach looks fine, I can't necessarily point to anything in particular but I like their overall analysis and it doesn't look like newbie scum thoughts.

Of course, I am historically terrible at at reading people who push me, don't take that read to the bank if i die.

Toriiiiiiiiiiii

- largely stand by what I said earlier about not liking their tone in respons to questioning, slight scum read

Not_Mafia

- truth be told, I've not been thrilled by what he's done so far - I know he's typically a player that doesn't do much as either alignment, but the way he outed this reads felt a bit showy, like he wanted to have the appearance of analyzing, but they haven't really moved much and the read on Sama was weak. I think there's a decent chance he could be scum here.

Samawoodo

- His start was slow and I wasn't a fan of how he seemed to be doing a lot of talking without much substance in the way of reads. I like the questioning of Toriii in 112 combined with him stating he was waiting for a followup in 141 though, shows he wasn't asking the question as busywork. The list in 202 doesn't do a ton for me, but the marcistar read is nice, there's a bit of depth to it in how he goes about the analysis - not just looking at simple things, talking about marcistar reacting to a null erad. I think that's enough to call him a town lean right now.

Meuh

- I wasn't a fan of that post asking everyone qusetions and in general I feel like there's a vibe of hanging back to her posts, stuff like 116 118 123 I don't see as advancing the game but more like talking just to talk. The bit about Sama in 162 is interesting although I'm not sure what she means by "positioning". Vote on Tori in 210 is kind of weak, don't townread Torii but this is just using purely gamestate reasoning and nothing in particular about Tori's posts which I don't like - why her over another inactive player?

marcistar

- My first game with her, had her as a fairly strong townread easily but that was because she came under pressure early, here it's a very different game and so my read isn't as strong. I do think 101 is a fairly solve-y post and the way she's tried to prod people to get the game moving is +town but nothing I'd hang my hat on.


Town

Pear
Norwee
Samawoodo

marcistar
in3kro

meuh
toriii
N_M

Scum

None of my scumreads are super strong suspicions, I'd vote any of them but would be least likely to vote Meuh simply because...she's actually posting, and given how slow the game has been I'd rather not vote out someone active on Day 1.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Not_Mafia

@Norwee:

How do you feel about Samawoodo right now?

[catboi]

er, not sama, in3kro. God, I'm a mess right now

[catboi]

Do you have actual thoughts to the content of Toriii's posts? Who are your strongest townreads right now?

[catboi]

Oh ffs, yeah, I accidentally wrote that post up in our last game because I was looking to compare your play and N_M's play in that game to this one (even though I know the latter is madness)

[catboi]

iN3krO, quick question: you mentioned something about the phases being long, I assume you have experience playing elsewhere?

Yes, I've been playing for the past year. But we usually have 48 hours days.

All right, was trying to get a sense for your familiarity with the game. Do you normally find it difficult to form reads on day 1?

I have to say, N_M started very townie for me, I don’t understand his lack of posts.

This is pretty much his playstyle and you just have to deal with it. That being said, I think based on slight indicators from what he's chosen to say + other people seeming townie, there's a decent chance he could flip mafia.

[catboi]

marcistar:

I notice you haven't made a vote yet. You should make one soon. We need to get wagons going.

[catboi]

You are townreading all my options, I'm not seeing how could we follow-up on day 2 or what would NM's flip tell us (thought that's what he wants with his gameplan, I think).

I think the way people position themselves around the NM vote will provide information should we choose to flip him. I don't mind you scumreading me, but do you believe you'd somehow gain more information by flipping me, for instance?

[catboi]

I agree with what in3kros saying here, the not_mafia wagon just seems icky to me tbh...
meuh & catboi, is ur plans to base the next day off the nk..? I don't think a not_mafia flip would give much.. no matter what he flips, I don't see a useful piece of info from him.

Again, same question to you: Do you believe there's someone else who flipping is supposed to provide more information?

I also must stress again I think there's a legitimate chance he is scum here, or I wouldn't be pushing this. I think there's subtle differences in the way he plays. I accept that I'll be suspect if I'm wrong on this.

Well this is facts
I didn't really feel hella confident in anyone being scum earlier (like i had scum reads, but i wasn't confident in them...), Idk where to go I wanna make a vote that I think is scum instead of just going onto a wagon for the sake of an elim.. but with votes this spread out, i don't really see reactions to being voted..
I think despite what I want to do, that I should just stick within the already being voted because thats what'll be best for town.

Do you have suggestions..? I wanna hear whats the ideas of other people first... but I have a rough idea of what vote I would make.

This is understandable, but we're running out of time and a decision has to be made because eliminating someone is better than eliminating no one. You're not always going to have anyone that stands out as obviously scummy, sometimes you have to take a guess and hope for the best.

(I'm someone who likes to always have a vote down if I can and be pushing someone, but I know people who prefer to hold their vote and are able to make it work. Looking at your other games you don't vote that often so it's not suspicious, at least).

Additionally, if you're struggling to find scumreads, wouldn't it make sense that the likely explanation is that scum are in the people who haven't talked as much and provided things to read them by?

[catboi]

Just vote the people that say an N_M wagon is good, and you'll flip scum.
Works everytime.

And i think this "scum just don't talk at all and are inactive lol" read is pretty lazy and could just be scum saying it cus a lot of town are afk.

Shrug, I will keep repeating until I'm blue in the face that I think there's an actual chance he's mafia here. I don't think it's a lazy read when I've tried to look at other players and have townreads elsewhere. I do have Meuh as a suspect as well so it's not like I'd oppose a vote there, though. What do you think of in3 right now?

[catboi]

But it is a fact that when N_M is town mafia that are unfamiliar with his playstyle are extremely likely to want to try to make us flip him. N_M is super flipbait if town here. And sure, that's annoying. But i feel like Meuh isn't really being genuine with their N_M push.

Why do you think there's an actual chance he's mafia here as oppposed to just usual flipbait N_M?

I think there's a subtle difference in how he plays that's pronounced in newbie games - if he's explaining himself to justify what he's doing he's doing it with the intent to look town so he gets credit for "actually playing" where as town he'll often just silently vote and make flippant statements but won't argue as strongly compare his isos in these games:

scum:
viewtopic.php?t=84984&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=85035&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=85693&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

town:
viewtopic.php?t=85388&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

The idea that he or his teammate would be doing something in response to votes is something of a fallacy - he doesn't respond to being voted as either alignment, and there already

are

a significant amount of people wno are trying to resist wagoning him! There's only 2 votes on him! I would describe it, right now, as a vote that is

not

an easy one.

Also, I just don't really like that he fos'd someone just for "stilted rvs posting", it doesn't feel like a real read

What do you think of in3 right now?

Tbh, town. And that's partly the reason why i'm trying to make the game go in another direction.

I would agree with that. What made you change your mind on him?

[catboi]

I don't see how peoples positioning on not_mafia would show information about them, since not_mafia is so easy wouldn't everyone just have an easy excuse..?
I think flipping you will make meuh/samawoodoo clearer for me idk if that would work for others too but I don't like how meuh acts with you!!! (and the way samawoodoo acted in 256 kinda gives me similar vibes to what vibes i got from meuh).
How is not_mafia subtly acting different btw...? It's too hard to read them

Are you actually interested in flipping me? How is that supposed to give information on those two?

If you think Meuh is a better vote, that's fine, I've already said I don't oppose it.

Explain what bothered you about that Samawoodo post?

[catboi]

Hmm i'll give the N_M meta a look when i get some time.

Not like t should take long to look at >_>

[catboi]

K

[catboi]

I don’t think you r scum wither way Catboi. So that vote is meh, but i’m still feeling like N_M could be town.

I mean that's understandable if you don't believe me, it's not like I'd claim it's the strongest case even if I feel it's my best lead right now.

Tbh elim me over Catboi, that's probably better for the game, unless he's town and my read is off, but I would

NEVER

make an incorrect read

You should generally never offer yourself up for elimination like this, especially when it's far from guaranteed who the wagon will be on. After all, you know you're town while anyone else is just a guess. You are right that I'm town here, but I hardly claim to be some great scumhunter, my reads are typically not great.

[catboi]

Well, meuhs buddying you, and samawoodoos buddying her is how I see it.
So I think generally in most cases, scum wouldn't be buddying scum.
so like if ur scum, meuhs not. if ur town, meuhs not. thats what i was originally thinking but when i think more idk but i still dont like meuh following after you so easily, I don't see a reason for her to.

so then like to explain about samawoodoo, it just seems like he did that because meuh has those kind of thoughts also. (like meuh said ur more townie... and then samawoodoo says ur more townie..) though he could just see meuh as a really townie town leader I guess..?
it just sort of seems like... not really buddying actually but... having too similar thoughts to her..?

Why can't they be town who is townreading me correctly? I'm not naive, I don't think someone is town just for townreading me but I don't think it's inherently suspect either, clearly

someone

has to be right about me. TBH, I have a hard time parsing whether the townreads on me are legitimate or a product of TMI because they haven't been well explained, because it's not like it's not like there's been any reasoning for it, so I don't find it a useful way to sort people. I find it more useful to hang back and observe what other people are doing and what cases they make.

That's an interesting point about Sama repeating opinions. Do you have other examples of this?

Next, let's address Norwee's early "scumread" on Meuh. It was a rather quick conclusion to come to so early on, still easily during RVS, where people are free to joke around. Could that have been Meuh ineptly trying to plant the idea of Norwee+NM in people's minds? Yes. It could have, but I don't know that I put too much faith in that.

Let's address the concept that wagoning N-M is scummy behavior. I agree if we're talking about newer players, or maybe on later days. On day one, an experienced scumplayer would LOVE to keep a shitposting randomlol impossible to read player like N-M alive, especially given that people attacking N-M so early look scummy. Why? It's really simple. Because N-M isn't going to do ANYTHING to scumhunt OR defend himself later on, and someone that's easy to miselim is more valuable to scum in later days. So I think an experienced scumplayer, especially one who's played directly with N-M in the past, would be more inclined to jump on someone who pushes at N-M as hard as possible, especially given that we're running out of time and the next decent wagon to get off the ground will have a very good chance of success.

And I feel like an inexperienced scum!Meuh would fight being flipped, at all. She seems resigned to it, and that doesn't feel scummy to me.

So there ya go. Interested in hearing what people think.

This is all

interesting

but it all feels rather presumptive? Like, you present an example of why this is what scum

could

be doing but I'm not sure it covers the ground to say Norwee is scum

because

he is doing this? That is to say, that his actions make more sense coming from scum than from town. Do you think his vote on Meuh is insincere. I don't agree with his early tonal scumread but I can understand him taking issue with what Meuh was saying in the way he did. It didn't raise a flag for me.

All right, was trying to get a sense for your familiarity with the game. Do you normally find it difficult to form reads on day 1?

I'm quite hit or miss in D1, but mostly I find it quite difficult.

Also, I've read everything and I like Norwee lynch waaaaaay better than NM

Unvote

VOTE: NorwegianBoy

Er...why? You need to explain yourself more or it's going to be hard to get a read on you.

[catboi]

but like thats the reasons for how you might be scum, but if ur town heres how catboi fits as scum: he doesn't seem that opposed to your actual buddying...? like i got the vibes he was opposed to other parts of you, which in my eyes means he wants you to follow his lead, but also wants to leave his options to pushing you open.

Here's the thing: I was still suspicious of Meuh at the time, and said as much. Am I supposed to unvote just because she immediately followed my vote? She seems willing to follow me around like a lost puppy even though I suspect her. I could have voted her right there, but I already stated my preference for someone who is less active. I'm also starting to doubt my scumread of her.

Like, if we vote out nowee or Meuh and they flip town it's going to be incredibly annoying that we removed an active contributor to the game because people were too afraid to vote a lurker.

[catboi]

Needless to say, if i'm actually eliminated here, please put more scrutiny on Pear and In3kro.
I mean, Pear had me as top town earlier.

Do you find pear changing their read on you to be scummy?

[catboi]

one last post before I go to sleep, but I really didn't like marcistar's logic in 303 where she suggests if i'm town, meuh is scum or vice versa. It didn't really make sense to me, it establishes the premise we aren't scum teammates but then assumes one of us must be scum which isn't a given, and the whole idea that me fipping town would make the person townreading me the most suspect, rather than one of the people who'd have voted to eliminate a townie. I can sort of understand her concern with me not reacting more strongly to Meuh in 312 but I don't really know why she didn't ask me about it directly and just put it out there as a reason to fos me, considering she'd been looking to interact with me earlier in the game I'm not sure why she takes that approach. I find all this concerning.

[catboi]

I’m interested to hear why you think i wouldn’t just keep voting you or switch to N_M if i’m scum here In3kro.

I think you are scum with catboi. You both want to stop the n3kro or catboi lynch gamestate because then you'll have a 50% chance of having 1 scum killed in D1, catboi went ahead and voted NM in 240 and you vote the guy you have been pushing all day long trying to start a NM vs Meuh lynch which is a 100% chance of killing a townie.

Only you have pushed meow and said he looked scum, trying to repeat that over and over so it would sink within the other players...

I think it wouldn't have been remotely difficult to get you voted over me if that was the strategy, we could have just as easily kept voting you if that's what we wanted.

The line of thinking here does feel like a townish sort of paranoia but the terseness of a lot of your responses leaves me cold. It feels...oddly restrained.

You had stated I was too absent, but I'm not anymore, and while it took me a lot longer to get reads out than I expected, I did get them out, so I'm not actually sure why you still scumread me. Is it just the stuff about "actively trying to not look scum"?

[catboi]

Also, while the deadline freeze is a welcome reprieve, I would urge that we still try to move with urgency and tr to make up for last time rather than letting things go slack again. Samawoodo should move his vote since we're not going to do Toriii while they're being replaced.

[catboi]

Hm i'm very impressed with Torii's replacement.

...why?

[catboi]

I actually think that post from Norwee was scummy

[catboi]

Like, T3 comes in and fires off a few rapid fire reads without much backing, and he's somehow "very impressed" with that? Further, he although he scumreads Meuh initially he puts her in his top townreads while putting iN3 as his scumread when Norwee has said he's startin to think iN3 is more town, there's just no reason I can see for him to be "impressed" by those posts unless it's the fact that iN3 is townreading him ｢(ﾟ<ﾟ)ﾞ??

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

[catboi]

EBWOP: Further, although T3 scumreads Meuh initially he puts her in his top townreads when Meuh is Norwee's scumread and the person he's voting right now, while putting iN3 as his scumread when Norwee has said he's starting to think iN3 is more town

[catboi]

EBWOP: Further, although T3 scumreads Meuh initially he puts her in his top townreads when Meuh is Norwee's scumread and the person he's voting right now, while putting iN3 as his scumread when Norwee has said he's starting to think iN3 is more town

Those were my initial reads after reading the first few pages.

This isn't a criticism of you, for the record. I think your content thus far is acceptable, and the explanations for your reads so far make sense. I just find it very hard to believe Norwee looks at what you've said and is in some way impressed by it, especially when your reads are fairly different from his.

[catboi]

I don’t bother explaining all of my takes because i rely a lot on gut and don’t care about explaining myself all the time.
...in what world do i play this way as scum? I’m clearly not defending anyone or playing with an agenda. Then again, i don’t expect anyone here to be familiar enough with my meta to see beyond their tunnel vision.
"Hurr Durr he scum for not explaining his post" is the traditional take for newbs so i don’t blame anyone for voting me. I’m just dissapointed. I’ve also been working a day to day job that’s very tiring so complaining about my fading activity being somehow allignment indicative is 100% bullshit.
Then again, if that’s what’s going to happen then go ahead, it’s just the day 1 elimination anyway.
But remember, Pear and Catboi don’t feel that scummy to me. Of my wagon when i’ve flipped town the elimination order should be always In3kro first and MAYBE Catboi, but i don’t really scumread him. Pear feels very town.

This is a lot of words and none of it is addressing how your read on T3 makes no sense

[catboi]

I just liked his reads progression because it didn’t feel to me like something a acum replacement would come out of the gates with. Seemed very real.

It makes total sense to me. And just because i didn’t share my exact thoughts doesn’t mean: "it doesn’t make sense" you just didn’t ask me and wait for the answer. Rather you prematurely assumed the read didn’t make sense even though i didn’t explain why i read it the way i did.
You’re too impulsive.

I wanted to wait for a response from you before moving on this but time is limited, the discussion was moving around this and possibly momentum was shifting elsewhere, and so I had to make the call whether to wait for you or make a move.

Why, exactly, didn'yt it feel like something a scum replacement would come out the gates with? What did you like about it? Point me to specific things.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

[catboi]

Idk if it'll count or not because of the broken tags but screw it

[catboi]

Sigh. Really unnecessary hammer then. Don't think it's scummy from T3 necessarily, just frustrating given time left. Was clear I still had business going with norwee

[catboi]

Actually it might be scummy tbqh, nothing in his reads was all that difficult

I think scum somewhere in N_M/marci/T3, outside chance of Sama maybe

[catboi]

I'm not claiming anything. I don't like T3 openly fishing for role info from people. If someone jailed their scumread they can push it without claiming.

T3, I understand it was 9 hours to deadline, but that's still a significant amount of time and I was clearly in a conversation there. Why did you hammer?

[catboi]

I'm not claiming anything. I don't like T3 openly fishing for role info from people. If someone jailed their scumread they can push it without claiming.

T3, I understand it was 9 hours to deadline, but that's still a significant amount of time and I was clearly in a conversation there. Why did you hammer?

Except there's no rolefishing cos he's not asking people to claim if they are a jailkeeper, just that they did not jail a scum read, you're experienced enough to know this

Even narrowing that much info down is +scum as they can potentially intuit roles based on people claiming what they

aren't

.

[catboi]

I hammered under protest because the deadline was approaching.

Again, I think that is an overstatement of how imminent the deadline was and ignores the circumstances of what was going on.

But I can see this line of conversation isn't going to be fruitful. Have you played games where this practice of asking if someone jailed their scumread happens?

[catboi]

I'm no jailkeeper so I didn't jail a scumread.

Let's update my PoE

VOTE: SamaWoodo

Why samawoodo?

[catboi]

Catboi, why not unvote sooner yesterday? I had made it very clear I was going to vote on Norwee, leaving him at E-1 which would be very easy for someone to hammer (especially considering N_M exists). Also did you really just vote Norwee because 361 made you

that

uneasy

? Or was there something more to it? I don't understand why you played the way you did near the end of the day.

I had settled in my mind that I was okay with the vote until he started talking. I didn't anticipate a hammer. Mea culpa, it was bad play. But yes, my read really did change on a dime. That happens, I'll see a post that pings me and I'll jump at it. This was also compounded by the fact that the wagons at the end of the day were fairly diffuse and I lacked for strong reads. I only really regretted it when he started explaining himself to me But as scum, it's much more beneficial to remain consistent, it would be absolutely unnecessary for me to vote norwee there.


In truth, I'm not sure about N_M. I fear my judgment may have been wrong and that I've poked the bear and now he's going to be tunneling me no matter what. I don't think this situation can be allowed to go unresolved because of that - if we do happen to both be town then leaving us alive is a guaranteed loss.

I wish I had strong reads this game but they are especially difficult to get and I am confident in almost none of them.

[catboi]

I feel like there's a lot of noise but no actual discussion.
catboi is towny.
We should look in the Norwee voters.

Meuh and NM ar hard townreads. Meuh is actively contributing, giving reasons and there were quite a few bad votes on NM yesterday.
Pear is town for showing a solvey attitude and willingness to consider others POV while giving valid reasoning.
I am town becuase I am.
catboi is leanscum. It seems to me like all catboi is doing here is justifocations and excuses.
Sama has not soneanything, we wait for the replacement and see.
in3 is leanscum for the reasons outline in Meuh's post.
marci is scum for a general faked tone, questioning jailkeeper results, and fluffing without any real reads.

Sama is not a good vote for today.

This is an abrupt shift from you for me being inactive for a short period of time. I don't think it's scummy from you, but I don't think you should jump to hasty conclusions based on recency bias. I'm still wary but I don't think you take the approach you have as scum here.

I'm coming around to agreeing on your view on Meuh. I still think pear is more likely town that's trying their best. in3/sama/n_m are all very uncertain to me because of lack of content.

marci is scum for a general faked tone, questioning jailkeeper results, and fluffing without any real reads.

Tone is just like... general vibes from my wording..? I'm not faking that, but if you think so I can't really fight back against that.
How exactly am I questioning jailkeeper results? Where does it say they get told "x is scum"? From what I see, they can protect who they chose against a NK, and also they can roleblock so it can be either of those? If it's even a jailkeep we're dealing with (: But thats from my understanding, if it works otherwise I wouldn't know.
Wdym without any real reads..? I remember giving reads before.

I don't like that marcistar's post here is entirely defensive in nature. I had issues with how she was reading me/meuh day 1 and in general it does not feel like she's approaching the game to solve it, her posts have been distant in a way.

VOTE: marcistar

[catboi]

marci. You're still just responding to things that are said and questioning or talking about theory. I don't see an interest in solving. This is what I mean.

[catboi]

marci. You're still just responding to things that are said and questioning or talking about theory. I don't see an interest in solving. This is what I mean.

Huh?? I've been trying to solve its really hard tho

Really? What are your reads right now?

[catboi]

423 is scummy. Cat boi looks to be testing the waters with this post.
I'm not sure why they don't just vote my slot before the replace in though as I read their ISO as convenient or safe. Maybe town credit here.

@Catboi

What makes NM scum possibility to you after 27?

I fairly already explained why I thought he might be scum - he was merely declaring reads rather than outright voting them.

On a kneejerk level I heavily disagree with a pearofclubs vote

[catboi]

I don't think VFP posting that case is scummy though and I actually feel good about my hesitance to vote that slot.

[catboi]

I think t3's lil push for jailor to out is kinda scummy, also how he hammered norwegianboyee so soon after he entered the game... just feels like he didn't wanna give the effort to give in depth reads

I don't like how this feels like you're repeating something I already said earlier in the day.


I forgot newbie games are on a short prod timer. I'll be back with more later.

[catboi]

Let me confirm, Pear is only ever over explaining posts when there's pressure to be judged on the side. And if you read their scum game there's a lot of simular posting from there to here.

Why do you see this game as similar to pear's scum game but not their town game? I looked at the two and I can't see any obvious differences at a glance. Obviously pear's reads haven't been great in my view but I don't know that it's scum making bad cases rather than wrong town who's just inexperienced

[catboi]

VOTE: marci
Not sure when deadline is. VFP looking very towny.

Deadline is just under 18 hours

[catboi]

We are at 3 votes on marci still and 1 on everyone else. I guess I'd swap to n_m as a secondary choice and third would be basically anyone else to achieve an elim.

I'm sorry for being inactive, I legit forgot how short newbie game deadlines are now compared to everything Else. A lot of the arguments being made now just don't do a whole lot for me. I do think VFP is probably townie.

[catboi]

I think I may have just caught a scum making a slip during my read through!

I would like everyone to compare PearfoClubs posts 124 and post 419. I think you might find some harsh inconsistencies.

I actually was explicitly suspicious of someone in my last game because they were super helpful. I thought it was them trying to steer suspicions away from themselves and appear nice and helpful. Turns out it was just a helpful person.
Shame we lost because of that suspicion, but live and learn, right?

Basically, he claims, that in his last game, he scum read someone for being helpful, but they were actually

town

, and therefore lost the game.

This means that people are, at least to some degree, suspecting him less because he's giving gameplay advice and assistance. My last game a very helpful and nice player that I townread early on turned out to be scum. Perspectives get tainted by appreciating things like that

Basically, he claims, that in his last game, he townread someone for being helpful, but they were actually

scum

, and therefore lost the game.

Hopefully, everyone sees the discrepancy here. So it seems to me, like he was making up a story to try and get people to agree with his push at the time, and did not realize that he had already made up the exact opposite story. This reeks of scum trying to manipulate town.

I would very much like to go ahead and drop a vote here on Pear, but I am going to get fully caught up before I cast any votes. I am going to step a way for a bit to take a break, but I will be caught up before I go to bed tonight!

This is such a cheap attempt at a "gotcha!" case. I really hate it. What reason would pear have to lie about their last game here?

[catboi]

Okay, the deadline is extended so it's not as bad, but we still need to consolidate on someone and get a claim

[catboi]

I'd vote Lukewarm, I really don't like catch-up posts at all. Know that's not a viable wagon right now, but still

[catboi]

Why aren't you trying to get people on marci, the leading wagon

That's clearly my preference, just wanted to get my feelings on lukewarm out there

We do need to consolidate on something, I'd say Marci should probably claim? Not that much time left

How much times left..? I'm so confused because my forum times show up different from irl time so im not sure about that IWOHFDS

The timers in mod posts will tell you regardless of time zone, the most recent one is just over 22 hours

[catboi]

Hopefully, everyone sees the discrepancy here. So it seems to me, like he was making up a story to try and get people to agree with his push at the time, and did not realize that he had already made up the exact opposite story. This reeks of scum trying to manipulate town.

This is a really good post and a good spot.
If you read the context to Pear's posts they are even worse. It's the before and after having NorwegianboyEE as scum.
Just adapting the comment to suit their agenda.

It's not, both of those thing can be true

Looking at the context is why I did not buy his counter argument that both were true. First here is a break down of the two anecdotes:

Spoiler: Anecdote 1

In his last game, he scum read someone for being helpful, but they were actually

town

, and therefore he lost the game.

Spoiler: Anecdote 2

In his last game, he town read someone for being helpful, but they were actually

scum

, and therefore he lost the game.

Now I am pretty sure that Anecdote 1 is a true anecdote, and Anecdote 2 is a false one that Pear made up to push a particular narrative.

Here is the context for 124. Marci town reads NorwegianBoy for being town, and Pear is trying to make the point "being helpful is NAI" and he tells Anecdote 1. But imo, if BOTH anecdotes are true, then why would he not have used Anecdote 2? That anecdote would prove the point better, but because anecdote 1 kind-of-sort-of works, he did not feel the need to lie. In general, scum tries to avoid lying when possible.

And next the context of post 419. Norwegianboy is under fire, and Pear is trying to make the argument "Norwegianboy is scum, despite him being helpful earlier, and we should hammer him." Suddenly, anecdote 1 doesn't work to push that narrative. If anything, telling the true anecdote 1, would indicate that we should not have voted Norwegian boy, because in that story, the person turned out to be town all along. So Pear, who wants to make the case that we should vote out Norwegianboy, creates the false anecdote 2, adjusting the first one to make it fit within the new narrative he is trying to push. And he just did not remember that he has already shared the original story, like 8 irl days earlier.

No one does this, even as scum

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

I thought she had been softing that but honestly I wanted the claim to be out in the open. This doesn't fully clear Meuh since mafia can multitask but it makes her more likely town than not

[catboi]

VOTE: VFP

I guess I'll compromise. I don't think I fos not_mafia anymore.

[catboi]

I do think VFP is probably townie.

VOTE: VFP

I guess I'll compromise. I don't think I fos not_mafia anymore.

A bit of a change of heart there?

I can lim Catboi today as it's probably just catboi and Pear with NM as the back up.
608 was just basically trying to get a confirmation of a PR.

VOTE: Catboi

Yes, actually. My previous scumread was wrong, I'm rethinking N_M, I don't buy the wagon on pear whatsoever. My preference would be lukewarm over you since in my view his reasoning is just blatantly scummy but beggars can't be choosers.

[catboi]

So yeah in conclusion, Marci's train of logic on her read on the Catboi/me/Sama slot trio doesn't really make sense, especially her read on me. If Marci is elimed and flips red, N_M looks absolutely terrible, considering the way she handled the day. However, she still has plenty of possibilities for a teammate, as she wasn't heavily discussed yesterday (and therefore doesn't actually have much interactions we can POE scumpairs off of) and has been very non-confrontational. Her only day 1 vote was the one on me.
I think it's worth mentioning that Marci is generally a non-confrontational player, so it's not

too

scummy as to how she handled day 1, but I still think town!Marci would be slightly more aggressive than she was.

Ahh, I didn't think I feel like this, but I guess I do LOL.
I really townread you rn, because I thought of stuff during the night Clearer mind

so im not as badass as i am in my mind ??

Fir the record as mafia here I probably unvote when I see this and don't press her further so I can hopefully NK her without doc protection.

[catboi]

Meh. Maybe I shouldn't be rethinking N_M so much but I really don't have a good clue

[catboi]

Fir the record as mafia here I probably unvote when I see this and don't press her further so I can hopefully NK her without doc protection.

So you thought that this post was a hint to being a PR?

I thought it was potentially softing a result but wanted to be sure.

Doc protection what's up with that?

I mean, no guarantees but that's what I'm figuring based on the way people have played, shrug.

[catboi]

If T3 or marci express a willingness to vote me I'll claim.

I think Lukewarm is playing like obvscum, beyond that I don't have strong reads to leave

[catboi]

Did catboi just slip we're in Tracker/Doc/Rolecop

I made a guess.

[catboi]

Based on what?

based on T3 trying to draw out jailkeeper claims and me straight-up forgetting that jailkeeper+tracker could be a thing

[catboi]

I don't think it's a "compromise" that I'm being driven onto here, I think in all likelihood at least one of VFP/Luke/N_M is scum, possibly both (N_M and VFP are never teamed though), and they want to make it seem like I'm the only viable vote to protect their partner. Meuh is about 99% town here.

[catboi]

T3, how does the claim affect your reads?

[catboi]

catboi is tracker .-.
fun
flashwagon pear i guess

No, I'm not tracker, marci claimed tracker with a result of no action on Meuh. I haven't claimed anything.

[catboi]

It should be beyond obvious here that the way I've interacted with and been suspected by everyone, I simply don't have a partner.

[catboi]

VOTE: not_mafia

shrug

[catboi]

I'm town and not counterclaiming doctor.

I think scum intentionally tried to push pear to see who would defend them so they could narrow down the doctor. In that light VFP and Lukewarm both look terrible. I think T3 is the town out of that group, but I'm not sure of it.

Sorry my reads have been so terrible.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lukewarm

[catboi]

marci should track randomly between those 3, don't make it obvious who.

[catboi]

T3's immediate push on in3 means he and lukewarm are almost never aligned, actually, so VFP is probably the surest bet for scum. I'd go him tomorrow and then probably lukewarm but that's a weak guess.

VOTE: VFP

[catboi]

Catboi's slip is fairly damning, but I'm not sure how VFP is suspect at the moment?

Again, not a slip. Remember the ENTIRE SEGMENT OF THE DAY where T3 was asking people if they were jailer? I made the reasonable assumption based on that

For the record, as mafia here I probably counter claim a PR here to save myself. (I was trying to give off the appearance I could be by complaining about rolefishing)

[catboi]

I will just issue the reminder that a mafia elim today would mean an automatic loss for scum (tracker becomes a cop, and even without a guilty they get one clear leaving two unclear with two elims). In that light, I'm not sure who you could think I'm scum with unless it's exactly T3.

[catboi]

I'm no jailkeeper so I didn't jail a scumread.

Let's update my PoE

VOTE: SamaWoodo

I'm no jailkeeper so I didn't jail a scumread.

Let's update my PoE

VOTE: SamaWoodo

Why samawoodo?

He was neutral for me in D1 and clearly my reads were off so I think it's better to start there (since T3 picked up the pace compared to Tori)

eurgh. I don't know, actually. T3+VFP looks possible. I can't rule out bus voting as sometimes people play suboptimally but it seems weird that that's the route he'd go on day 2 with a doc save, unless maybe they rolecopped a PR

[catboi]

Sam is in the PoE but is null. We should ocus on people who have actually done scummy stuff instead.

Meuh and NM ar hard townreads. Meuh is actively contributing, giving reasons and there were quite a few bad votes on NM yesterday.
Pear is town for showing a solvey attitude and willingness to consider others POV while giving valid reasoning.
I am town becuase I am.
catboi is leanscum. It seems to me like all catboi is doing here is justifocations and excuses.
Sama has not soneanything, we wait for the replacement and see.
in3 is leanscum for the reasons outline in Meuh's post.
marci is scum for a general faked tone, questioning jailkeeper results, and fluffing without any real reads.

Sama is not a good vote for today.

okay, T3 and VFP are actually very compatible

[catboi]

When I was deciding between vfp and catboi, I stopped and through about how they handled the day if they knew that they had targeted pear, and he had lived. Is it more likely that they decided to open up the day with a hard scum read on Pear, knowing that a PR could hard clear them (VFP), and therefore make themselves suspicious for hard scum reading a confirmable town?.

Yes, actually, pushing a doc save target to see who defends them so you can narrow down the doctor, and possibly even force them to out if enough people join you, is incredibly basic play, to write it off as something scum wouldn't do is bad WIFOM which ignores the benefits of doing so

[catboi]

Lukewarm is soooooooo scummy

[catboi]

Meuh- Meuh was one tier up as of like 80% of the way through Day 1, like almost every post from the beginning of the day just screamed town at me, but they did fall slightly at the end of the day because they came across like they were okay with almost every elim option presented

Regardless I'm pretty sure this is just a win.
Meuh not visiting makes them town here as they would have been visiting for either the kill or the Rolecop.
Pear being protected means town.
2 PR claims not CC.

This means we have 4 town out of 7 going into night 2.
Scum are only possible to be in me, T3, Catboi, and Lukewarm.

I don't think T3 is scum here so the pool narrows down to me, Catboi, and Lukewarm with T3 as the additional.

NM dies tonight, we have 3 town and a clear on someone. Scum flip today means that we have 4 town out of 6 players.

There's really nothing to try and solve here.

I wish I had that kind of confidence right now lol.

Is it not possible that one scum does both the rolecop ability and the kill? If so, how can you clear Meuh?

Going back on a townread to paranoid WIFOM reasoning not cearing her just screems desperation to keep the available elim options open

[catboi]

fwiw, meuh's play mid-day 1 was screaming self-sacrificial VT

[catboi]

The rules allow for multitasking now, I don't know when it changed

[catboi]

Mafia Rolecop
Welcome!

You are a Mafia Rolecop.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed of their role but not their alignment. Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons will both return "Vanilla". If you are roleblocked, you will receive "No Result."

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill.

You may commit the kill and perform a role cop in the same night phase.

You also share a factional Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

This is from the sample role PMs in the OP. I still think meuh is unlikely to be scum, scum wouldn't double up actions on the rolecop without good reason

[catboi]

Lukr and catboi are fighting with each other. Unless this is elaborate scum theatre they are not both scum. I am town. This leaves VFP as CONFIRMED SCUM.

I mean, we're not voting each other.

VOTE: Lukewarm

well, we weren't, anyhow

[catboi]

Whyd u want my claim in the open..? just because i was close to being elimed?

Because I figured there was probably a doctor and I wanted to be sure you'd be protected. I know that's dumb but w/e.



I have no idea what the current vote count is. I'd switch back to VFP.

[catboi]

Major VFP-Lukewarm partner vibes here

IF you say so. I am not sure in what world I would not have bussed him by now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bussing today is an automatic loss. Scum know this and are gunning for me instead.

[catboi]

Here's myogic for this.
We have a pool of 3 people.
Lukewarm suggested eliminating VFP earlier for inactivity. Probably not something a brand newbie would do to their parter. That means they probably are not both scum. Now we look at the other scum slot. The only person this could possobly go to is catboi. So, he is confirmed mafia.
Does anyone disagree?

Lukewarm never suggested eliminating VFP for inactivity? In fact, he's been attacking me allday? I don't know how you could realistically be looking at the game and conclude either is my partner when they've both been trying to get me voted out all day. Quote the posts where lukewarm went after VFP?

[catboi]

Catboi: 3 (VFP, T3, Lukewarm)

LOL

this vote count alone should spew me as town, if I was scum here I would be fucking SCREAMING at my partner to stop bussing me

[catboi]

imk pushed sama m rrllier

Why's that lone vote more convincing than what's been going on all day? If I'm scum, who's my partner, T3?

[catboi]

How is that math working? NotMafia, Marci, and Pear are full clear, there is an argument to be made that Meuh is clear, but that still leave me, you, catboi, and T3, no? So 50%.

T3 isn't flipping scum.
3 scum are in me, you, and Catboi.

You should be seeing me and Catboi as scum here.

The aggressive certainty here is baffling. What makes you THAT confident in T3-town?

[catboi]

VOTE: VFP

I think I'm back to vaguely town-leaning lukewarm's paranoia though I shouldn't be. T3 has sank in my estimation.

Toriii low profile is kinda sus (and didn't answer the fact he is suspecting one of the stronger townie reads (from my poe as i said), dunno if is lack of reading, or just random pointing), but i cant talk too much about low profiles because my participation is just "enough" (being generous with myself)

This quote feels vaguely partner-y.

[catboi]

I don't know how to describe it exactly but T3 right now feels like he's trying to hustle with what he's pushing. Doesn't feel like someone who is genuinely looking for a team, he's pushing me off something very slight

[catboi]

Major VFP-Lukewarm partner vibes here

IF you say so. I am not sure in what world I would not have bussed him by now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bussing today is an automatic loss. Scum know this and are gunning for me instead.

Slip. Bussing today would only be an automatic loss if I'm town.

This isn't remotely close to a slip??

I want to vote you for this post alone.

With a scum elim today, the tracker gives either a confirmed guilty on the last mafia, or a confirmed innocent on the town, leaving two elims on the unclears. It's not a slip at all. Why are you trying to argue that it is?

[catboi]

How are either of those more likely with me?

[catboi]

That feels like very selective reasoning on your part to claim that is the LEAST likely team

[catboi]

Fingers crossed. Sorry for being so messy this game.

[catboi]

If we got a result, we win, although I wouldn't gamble on it. Jailkeeper flip is surprising, but I think pear is still unambiguously clear given how VFP tried to wagon them. Fos on T3.

[catboi]

Oh, right, goon probably carries the kill, derp. Pear and Meuh are just clear.

[catboi]

wait no

Spoiler:

Welcome!

You are a Mafia Roleblocker.

You may target one player per night. This player will be prevented from performing their own action, if any.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You may commit the kill and perform a roleblock in the same night phase. You also share a factional Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

for some reason the card is different here from the wiki?

Multi-tasking is setup dependent. Newbie games have multi-tasking by default for balance purposes. Setup-specific rules always override general ones on the wiki.

Strictly speaking, no one is ~fully~ cleared, as mafia could intentionally take no action, but that would be highly unusual on night 1. You're effectively cleared because the roleblocker would visit on night 1. Assuming Not_Mafia was truthful about targeting Pear, I would consider them clear because most teams would have the goon carry the kill on night 1. I also just don't think VFP was trying to bus his roleblocker after subbing in. So you and Pear are both still 99% ton in my book.

[catboi]

In the event that marcistar was blocked, I would assume, based on his reads, that Not_Mafia targeted Lukewarm, which would again make T3 the likely vote fmpov. (I also think it's somewhat less likely that both mafia members would choose to push pear together, but that's not a guaranteed thing).

p-edit: ah, yeah, no result means you were roleblocked. Means we don't have auto but we can still make some assumptions about who N_M targeted.

[catboi]

OOOOOHHH I just got voted how nice ummm I mean I haven't really done much either...Ok here's a sus, @NorwegianboyEE maybe...? I mean they seem kinda mean...hehehe

It was not about what you did, it was about what you could do and how

Actually

Uhhh I've played a few mafia games but not in this format..(how does one quote)

I'm not sure yet but I think there's at least one mafia between Meuh, Norweegian, and iN3kor

Umm "I think there's at least one mafia between Meuh, Norweegian, and iN3kor" When I play mafia, I usually narrow down to a group of people that all act differently(this could be just the person but...). At that moment, I though meuh was quite odd because of how they had some interesting early town reads, then also Norweegian I thought was constantly talking about somewhat random mafia-ish topics(distracting?), and iN3krO is just kinda coasty(maybe only at the moment idk) So...

I like what you said about Meuh, and i dont like the timing when marcistar said they knew irl (but it could be just a coincidence) thought it could help us to understand the interactions between them.

I'm not agree with Norweegian thought, could you tell me where those (random mafia-ish) posts are?

If you like the reasoning against me because of the early townreads, could you explain why you find it suspicious at all? I've never really seen anyone think of early reads as an inherently scummy thing and I've already explained that doing things like that are very much a playstyle thing

It's something interesting to point, that's why i liked it. Is not about having early townreads, is the content about that. It was kinda meh at first, then it improved. As i said, im going to follow your interactions with marci close

Actually, your next post are leading more townie for me right now, so i wouldn't care too much about that

Btw, im still waiting for toriiii about we asked (norwegian posts i mean)

then also Norweegian I thought was constantly talking about somewhat random mafia-ish topics(distracting?),

Im talking about that in my previous post actually. Still waiting for that "mafia-ish topics"

Btw i didn't want to say anything about that (yet) it because many of you have pointed it already, and it would be easy for me to just "jump" onto that train right now, but yeah, in3kro D1 is starting to be kinda sus, because activity and because the "content" of his posts .

This type of interaction is, I think, potentially partner-y between torii and samawoodo. He's making a point of questioning her and interacting with her, even makes mention of wanting a reply from her, but their conversation is very neutral - he's just asking her questions, saying he likes a thing she said but disagrees with another. There's no pressure exerted here despite having his RVS vote down on her.

Note also the shade throwin in3kro's way at the end of the last post.

[catboi]

Toriii low profile is kinda sus (and didn't answer the fact he is suspecting one of the stronger townie reads (from my poe as i said), dunno if is lack of reading, or just random pointing), but i cant talk too much about low profiles because my participation is just "enough" (being generous with myself)

iN3kro feels kinda scummy aswell.

The reads here also lend support to T3-scum - he gives an explanation on tori being "kinda sus" but packs in an excuse at the end about how he "cant talk too much about low profiles" - I don't think he dampens this read if it's on a townie. Meanwhile the post about in3 is just one-line shade.

[catboi]

On the other hand, Sama barely mentioned in3, which makes it hard to draw much in the way of conclusions. I still think these posts from in3 would be a bold move for a roleblocker starting off day 2 after a blocked kill:

I'm no jailkeeper so I didn't jail a scumread.

Let's update my PoE

VOTE: SamaWoodo

I'm no jailkeeper so I didn't jail a scumread.

Let's update my PoE

VOTE: SamaWoodo

Why samawoodo?

He was neutral for me in D1 and clearly my reads were off so I think it's better to start there (since T3 picked up the pace compared to Tori)

Granted, I've seen some fairly nonsensical buses before, but I think the indicators are more favorable for Lukewarm overall.

[catboi]

Meuh and NM ar hard townreads. Meuh is actively contributing, giving reasons and there were quite a few bad votes on NM yesterday.
Pear is town for showing a solvey attitude and willingness to consider others POV while giving valid reasoning.
I am town becuase I am.
catboi is leanscum. It seems to me like all catboi is doing here is justifocations and excuses.
Sama has not soneanything, we wait for the replacement and see.
in3 is leanscum for the reasons outline in Meuh's post.
marci is scum for a general faked tone, questioning jailkeeper results, and fluffing without any real reads.

Sama is not a good vote for today.

This...is not good. T3 had surprisingly little to say about Samawoodo.

[catboi]

I think it's probably just T3 here and that ends tyhe game, what T3 isd showing here klooks more like scum defeatism (see: the newbie game where i replaced into a slot that had scumslipped) than town resignation. I'm fine with moving things forward but want to take a look at VFP's ISO just to see if there's anything I missed.

[catboi]

(I also think that frankly he should be seeing me as obvtown given VFP's treatment of me, but I'm incredibly selfish)

[catboi]

T3
iN3krO

Meuh

NM

marcistar
catboi

Pearofclubs

Regardless I'm pretty sure this is just a win.
Meuh not visiting makes them town here as they would have been visiting for either the kill or the Rolecop.
Pear being protected means town.
2 PR claims not CC.

This means we have 4 town out of 7 going into night 2.
Scum are only possible to be in me, T3, Catboi, and Lukewarm.

I don't think T3 is scum here so the pool narrows down to me, Catboi, and Lukewarm with T3 as the additional.

NM dies tonight, we have 3 town and a clear on someone. Scum flip today means that we have 4 town out of 6 players.

There's really nothing to try and solve here.

I can't really conclude anything here. It's obvious to me he was trying to townshield his partner, but he never really justified either read. He was much more vocal about T3-town. Scum tend to be less voical about townreading their partners, but then they don't townread their partners that often, either. If you assume that T3 being elimmed is an autoloss for VFP though, it makes sense that he'd adopt this strategy.

Meuh is always town here for me.
Marci lim works for me and I think we just win with Meuh, T3, and iN3krO as town here.
Marci scum makes NM town and iN3krO is plausibly the partner for 513
Marci town just means 2 scum in Pear, Catboi, and NM

Some light shade toward in3.

Hopefully, everyone sees the discrepancy here. So it seems to me, like he was making up a story to try and get people to agree with his push at the time, and did not realize that he had already made up the exact opposite story. This reeks of scum trying to manipulate town.

This is a really good post and a good spot.
If you read the context to Pear's posts they are even worse. It's the before and after having NorwegianboyEE as scum.
Just adapting the comment to suit their agenda.

I

think

this is scum latching on to a point made by a townie. Again, scum

tend

to not be so synchronous in their pushes and he doesn't need to reinforce a read his partner is making - this looks like him wanting to to buddy up to lukewarm a bit.

Idk, the fact that he was so insistent on T3-town makes it very wifom-y but I think the vote from in3 would be surprising if it were on a partner. There's nothing that I can say leads me to confidently think one way or the other. I'm fine going with T3 still.

[catboi]

Hypothetically, what is scum lukewarm supposed to do in that situation?

[catboi]

Anyway, I'm okay with voting T3 if people want to move forward. I would be greatly annoyed if N_M didn't jail Lukewarm when they were his scumread. Does anyone have anything they want to do?

[catboi]

I think the roleblock supersedes the jailkeep but it's somewhat of a grey area. Ask the mod. They changed an old newbie setup because of a conflict like that.

[catboi]

I think the only other thing we could do before we pass the vote is for Meuh, Pear, and Marci to all voice their opinion on me vs catboi tomorrow, just in case the vote on T3 does not end the game

I think they've all said they fos me over you >_>

I'm just going to hope this is right rather than deal with that possibility.

[catboi]

VOTE: T3

E-1, if anyone has anything more they want to do/say speak up now

[catboi]

phew

[catboi]

First things first: please don't rush things by voting early. I know with 4 alive there's no possibility of a quickhammer with just 1 vote, but I'd like to avoid any sort of unnecessary risk. Make your intentions clear before voting and don't rush the day, out of respect for other players.


That being said, my first thought on entering the day was that I felt it was very hard the last couple of days to find someone who was scummy on their own merits, and that tends to happen when you're working from a false paradigm. The fact is I think Not_mafia almost certainly would have jailed lukewarm the night he was killed. I also am skepptical that lukewarm-scum chooses to kill one of the people who was suspicious of me rather than marcistar, who was on my side. I think I was misclearing someone. And I intend to look back with that in mind.

[catboi]

marci:

did you breadcrumb or hint at your role prior to day 2?

[catboi]

I actually think I can towncase myself based on how Sama + VFP interacted with me, but that's not my main concern right now.

[catboi]

Any PR claim would be a counterclaim to marcistar, so that was obvious enough.

I have thoughts already based on a quick search + skim of ISOs but I want to hear from marci and Lukewarm first.

[catboi]

I'm going over Catboi's end of day 1 and I still can't shrug off the way he acted, he was discussing how a town flip on me or Norwee would suck considering our activity in 322 and having Norwee as second highest town in 239, then Norwee posts 361 and suddenly Catboi's completely alarmed. I have a hard time believing someone would jump over completely over that singular post, Catboi in particular I don't think seems like the kind of player to do that. It feels opportunistic. Even if you use Norwee being one of the only wagons at the time, so was I, you'd have to consider that I was bottom 3 on the same readslist I've linked, and while he does voice reconsideration of his read on me (in 372 for example), that's still a huge jump in a read in a short span of time.

Catboi also had an interest in keeping me alive because I was one of the people shifting away from him and diverting that target to others and posts like Marci's 303 shade Catboi if I were to flip town (and that post would attract Catboi's attention particularly considering Sama would be his partner here) he also seems particularly discontent with 303 with what he said in 329, where he goes after Marci's reasoning against at least one of me and him being scum, and thus indirectly discrediting the link Marci establishes between me and Sama

It seems very reasonable of a theory to me that Catboi started getting worried that a townflip on me would lead to him and Sama being caught soon after, and seeing an opportunity to hop on Norwee, took it and then tried to gain towncred with the unvote in 416

Meuh, my reads as town tend to fluctuate wildly because I get paranoid and suspicious easily. As scum it does not benefit me to change my position so rapidly - look at the end of day 1, Samawoodo wasn't really in danger, I wasn't in much danger, it benefits me much more to sstay consistent in my read on norwee, and then if he gets eliminated, I can claim I was right. As scum it's beneficial to maintain a steady consistency in your reads, where me flipping just to get an elim on norwee would put me in a noticeably worse position when town would likely have elimmed wrong anyway.

My read change on Norwee was a big fail but I tend to overreact a lot. You are making the mistake of reading into erratic/irrational behavior and assuming it is scummy, when often the opposite is true - scum know their objectives and can maintain stances that looks good. They don't have to change positions based on new information. To that end, sacrificing my towncred just to get rid of norwee isn't a move I would make as scum. I'd just protest and hope it goes through anyway with the deadline as an excuse.


If you really insist on going down this road, I'm going to repeat that I really do think that the way Samawoodo and VFP interacted with me should be enough to clear me.

[catboi]

I think it's marcistar, actually, if my very leading question did not make it clear. On day 2, because of Not_Mafia's fakeclaim, I had mentally calibrated to both PR claims being confirmed town. When he flipped jailkeeper, I completely forgot that there's a setup with a jailkeeper and no tracker (I'm not used to this new newbie setup, I've played 1 real game on it). It's very unfortunate but I nly realized it after T3 flipped and I was left wondering to myself who N_M jailed if not Lukewarm. And that was when I realized marcistar wasn't clear at all.

[catboi]

To be honest, there were some things that were unsettling to me in your ISO, I don't think your stance on Sama/VFP clears you, but there were a few things in your favor. First of all, the report - although it's possible for a roleblocker to no-visit on night 1, I think very few teams would actually do so.

Secondly, there's this post:

OOOOOHHH I just got voted how nice ummm I mean I haven't really done much either...Ok here's a sus, @NorwegianboyEE maybe...? I mean they seem kinda mean...hehehe

It was not about what you did, it was about what you could do and how

Actually

Uhhh I've played a few mafia games but not in this format..(how does one quote)

I'm not sure yet but I think there's at least one mafia between Meuh, Norweegian, and iN3kor

Umm "I think there's at least one mafia between Meuh, Norweegian, and iN3kor" When I play mafia, I usually narrow down to a group of people that all act differently(this could be just the person but...). At that moment, I though meuh was quite odd because of how they had some interesting early town reads, then also Norweegian I thought was constantly talking about somewhat random mafia-ish topics(distracting?), and iN3krO is just kinda coasty(maybe only at the moment idk) So...

I like what you said about Meuh

, and i dont like the timing when marcistar said they knew irl (but it could be just a coincidence) thought it could help us to understand the interactions between them.

I'm not agree with Norweegian thought, could you tell me where those (random mafia-ish) posts are?

Bolding is mine - I don't think scum leaps to an immediate agreement with the first person to suspect their partner.

Next, there's this very early game excange:

Hello everyone!

@Samawoodo - Are you mafia?

My my, testing your scum detector?

I could try mine later aswell

I'm not btw, are you?

ofc not i would never be evil

Would you say evil doesn't fit you?

Actually i'd like to look for reactions aswell so

VOTE:

Toriiiiiiiiiiii

My first mafiascum vote!

Evil doesn't fit me cause I've gotta be here to carry the town to victory Haven't rolled it yet though so idk if I'm good at it at all

Also nice job on casting your first vote, hope you enjoy your first game looking for reactions early is always a good idea

Any off-site experience, if you don't mind me asking?

No problem, i dont mind at all!

Yeah, i played several games but this is my first one here

Actually, this is my first english game (im spanish) and im very excited!

Although I've seen experienced players banter and joke about being scum with each other on page 1, I actually think it's fairly rare behavior for newbies to act this way - they're too afraid of seeming partnered so they would typically tend to avoid interactions like this. The tendency is to be more distant and cautious. Is this a strong read? Hardly. But it's a small point of evidence that I lean toward being towny.

I also think on play alone you've been town, and I picked up on the self-sacrificing VT thing on day 1 in your response to pressure. I think you're most likely town.

[catboi]

My skim made me think it was her, I'm a bit wary of conf-biasing myself because that was my thought almost right after we went into night phase, but I'll assemble a case as to why I think that.

As for Lukewarm, I really do think they wouldn't be likely to join VFP in pushing their target, it's as simple as that. I also think in3 just doesn't try to bus Samawoodo right away at the start of day 2 if they're partnered.

[catboi]

marci:

did you breadcrumb or hint at your role prior to day 2?

I don't think I have, I usually try not to hint at my role earlier than I have to, because i'm aware at how utterly

bad and obvious

it is when I try.. why? (:

Okay, I asked because if you had actually crumbed it anywhere day 1, it would change my view. I don't think crumbing or hinting is necessary for town PRs and often there are antitown consequences for doing so, but I felt the need to ask because not everyone plays like me and there's always a chance.

I think it's marcistar, actually, if my very leading question did not make it clear. On day 2, because of Not_Mafia's fakeclaim, I had mentally calibrated to both PR claims being confirmed town. When he flipped jailkeeper, I completely forgot that there's a setup with a jailkeeper and no tracker (I'm not used to this new newbie setup, I've played 1 real game on it). It's very unfortunate but I nly realized it after T3 flipped and I was left wondering to myself who N_M jailed if not Lukewarm. And that was when I realized marcistar wasn't clear at all.

So you think i'm not actually tracker right..? What made you jump to that conclusion first?

Well, after the flip I was somewhat struggling with how to process the info - It seemed highly unlikely to me that N_M would target someone other than lukewarm, his most vocal scumread. It was then that I realized simultaneously that there's a setup with a jailkeeper and no tracker, meaning you aren't clear, and the blocked kill would mean that, if we are in column C, mafia would know it's the setup with the jailkeeper and that tracker is a fake safeclaim. That was the basis for my initial suspicion.

[catboi]

Honestly I'm a little tired right now but I'll try to power through and write my thoughts out for you all right now so you don't have to wait

[catboi]

Acually @catboi , from my POE, u have started getting townie points in your last posts, not enought to consider you a townie atm, we are 9 players atm and is hard to "gamble" anything right now.

You asked me before about who i was suspecting, im going to try making a proper list

My strongest townie read atm is Norwee as i said.

Then N_M (losing points because inactivity maybe (?) ) and maybe Pearl (between null/ slightly townie)

Then right now you are null with meuh

Marci was null, but i dont like how she feels worried about a null reading coming from an almost afk player (Toriii), is like she is trying to "demostrate" he is townie yes or yes, and this made me feel like

Toriii low profile is kinda sus (and didn't answer the fact he is suspecting one of the stronger townie reads (from my poe as i said), dunno if is lack of reading, or just random pointing), but i cant talk too much about low profiles because my participation is just "enough" (being generous with myself)

iN3kro feels kinda scummy aswell.

So, to start off, Sama calls marci null but makes sure to hedge a bit by mentioning something he doesn't like. By itself, not much notable at all, but it does feel like a read scum might leave on a partner, so that if their partner gets caught they can point back to this to try and take credit for suspecting them.

Samawoodoo you placed a vote on tori in 15, but haven't changed votes at all since then. Is there a reason for this..? Does the vote still hold true to your thoughts on this game as of currently..?

At first it was kinda random as you can guess, he hadn’t posted yet, so it was to force him to speak.

But then, he had weird posts, pointing norwee because his posts were kinda scummy (we asked for them and he didn’t reply), then he said norwee was more townie (norwee has been playing since the beginning townie as fuck)

And then his activity is not the best (trying to be low profile?)

Idk, I don’t have a better option right now for D1

Past this, he rarely interacts with or mentions marcistar, the one really notable time is explaining himself here. I think in particular for a newer player, the most common tendency is to avoid their partner, because they know they're on the same team and don't see as much need to pay attention to what their partner is posting or talk to them.

Toriiiiiiiiiiii -

neutral

Earlier, I thought they were kinda nervous/unsure, but I didn't know if it would point to anything. I dont think they're scummy as of rn, just seems like they need to get the groove into things still

Samawoodo -

slight scum

I didn't agree to how he could be seen as awkward earlier in the phase, though I find it quite weird that since he defended himself, he hasn't come on since.. It might be because of timezones and him not having time, but I would really like to see him give more reads at this point.

iN3krO -

slight scum

I'm not really sure he had town intentions in mind, he seems kinda chaotic (like he doesn't wanna help town all that much.) What he's done is very surface level... (does that make sense?). I would like to see him come in a bit more often also.

Meuh -

slight town

As of right now, nothing meuh has done stands out as different from the other games I have played onsite with her (where she's always been town so far). Though I'll still be keeping out my eye for her

Pearofclubs -

town

I feel like they've been playing with the goal of helping town in mind, so they're a very big townread from me (:

Not_Mafia (SE) -

neutral

I feel like it will be very hard to read him, but I don't really think anything he's said so far has been scummy.

NorwegianboyEE (SE) -

town

How much they contributed at the beginning makes me think hes town trying to help us out as much as possible. I don't really see the helpfulness coming from a scumplayer.

catboi (SE) -

neutral

I agree that we need more contributions from him now that he's had a bit of time to get in, though that isn't enough to put him as a scumread imo because he hasn't said anything weird/wrong yet.

Notably, in marci's first reads list, she has Sama as "slight scum" but puts emphasis on wanting to see more reads from him - I also think this is fairly typical scum play for a newer player, you see your partner isn't saying much so you lightly pressure them/ask for reads to get them into the game/make it seem like they're contributing.

hen in i looked back to see what might make you think this way, and ask you if 83 is what pinged you..?

does this make sense..? im getting so confused rnnnn

The way Sama has been positioned and the way people have interacted with them have me uneasy

I should go and read back as to why I'm uneasy but when I ISOed ppl earlier to make the questions I felt like Sama was positioned in a way I could see them in a lot of different scumpairs, which is why i asked so many ppl about them

What scumpairs do you see him in?
tbh I wouldn't be surprised if hes scum... I expected him to be a bit more active/give a bit more reads since he said he's played before, he hasn't really casted suspicion onto anyone except in3kro, so I think if samawoodoo is scum in3kro wouldn't be..?

Samawoodoo

can you get in thread and give some reads/a readslist..?

im so conflicted, I think I need to readback on everybody because I don't think my 2 biggest suses rn would be in a team together

Although she continues to vocalize suspicion of Sama here, there's what I would call a

hesitance

to put real pressure on him.

I dont see the point of that tbh, i mean, is not like he asked you for a 2v2 or something like that (anyway, that wouldn't be a problem either). Is like you are being so defensive without reason (We are at D1 still)

I agree, I don't see the point on him holding out reads

If someone ask about my thoughts, i wouldnt have any problem sharing them

on this note, do you have any thoughts on other people..?

Marci was null, but i dont like how she feels worried about a null reading coming from an almost afk player (Toriii), is like she is trying to "demostrate" he is townie yes or yes, and this made me feel like

I just wanna know their thought process behind it, I don't mind if they scumread me just wanna know why

Samawoodoo

you placed a vote on tori in 15, but haven't changed votes at all since then. Is there a reason for this..? Does the vote still hold true to your thoughts on this game as of currently..?

This is where it gets interesting - despite qusetioning him, there's no real followthrough from marcistar. Did she think Samawoodo's answers were ok? Not enough? We don't really know. She just moves on to...

Are you actually interested in flipping me? How is that supposed to give information on those two?

If you think Meuh is a better vote, that's fine, I've already said I don't oppose it.

Explain what bothered you about that Samawoodo post?

Like, if I had to pick between the wagons you would be the one i'm most interested in. But this was before norwegienboyees vote on meuh.
(I feel like I need to vote within somewhere thats already voted, because not alot of people are budging, and we need info from a flip.)

Well, meuhs buddying you, and samawoodoos buddying her is how I see it.
So I think generally in most cases, scum wouldn't be buddying scum.
so like if ur scum, meuhs not. if ur town, meuhs not. thats what i was originally thinking but when i think more idk but i still dont like meuh following after you so easily, I don't see a reason for her to.

so then like to explain about samawoodoo, it just seems like he did that because meuh has those kind of thoughts also. (like meuh said ur more townie... and then samawoodoo says ur more townie..) though he could just see meuh as a really townie town leader I guess..?
it just sort of seems like... not really buddying actually but... having too similar thoughts to her..?

Here, suddenly, when me and Meuh were getting pressure, she's okay with voting

us

, and is mentioning Samawoodo as possibly being connected somehow. He's in the background, mentioned as a possible suspicion, but she's suddenly trying to justify pushing other players. Notable, too, is the way she trise to draw connections between Samawoodo and me/meuh - as scum know their partner is mafia, they will often try to tie them to a townie before they flip, so that if their partner gets caught they have someone to push on. Keep this type of behavior in mind.

for the samawoodoo stuff: like, he just seems to be doing alot of what you are..? which is why i kinda thought meuh + samawoodoo might be the scumteam. (like meuh doing stuff, and samawoodoo being inexperienced scum, so he just copies what his partner (meuh) does.)

Again, another instance where she's trying to tie Meuh to samawoodo on day 1. Keep in mind this is happening while several players are voting Meuh, while there's much less traction on Samawoodo. I also don't really think is a very logical reason to see them as being teamed.

That's an interesting point about Sama repeating opinions. Do you have other examples of this?

Huhhh im so confused, I remembered seeing it before... but now that i'm reading back..
I think it held more weight in my mind at the time, but now doesn't hold as much weight. Their very beginning of the game together.
Also when he was like

in3kro D1 is starting to be kinda sus,

At the time it felt very much like a copy of others.. though I guess not strictly Meuh..? IDK why I remember these things as linked to meuh I think it's because he said that soon after meuh said "maybe slight scum lean" or something like that.

But then when I question her on her read, she can't back it up. She can't really name a specific instance of Samawoodo copying reads like she said. To me it feels like she invented some shade on her partner to distance from him, but couldn't justify it when questioned on it, and didn't want to case her partner in a way that would get him voted, so she walked back the read when questioned on it.


This is getting long, so I'll break up the VFP stuff into its own post.

[catboi]

Well, after the flip I was somewhat struggling with how to process the info - It seemed highly unlikely to me that N_M would target someone other than lukewarm, his most vocal scumread. It was then that I realized simultaneously that there's a setup with a jailkeeper and no tracker, meaning you aren't clear, and the blocked kill would mean that, if we are in column C, mafia would know it's the setup with the jailkeeper and that tracker is a fake safeclaim. That was the basis for my initial suspicion.

So you're just assuming thats what not_mafia did..? I can't fight against that because everyone can think whatever they want, but i'm really not scum.
People could always make last minute decisions

i dont know how to really fight against that but i don't understand how I could've possibly been fake claiming..? I'm not smart enough to pickup on reasons like that as to why a nightkill would be stopped. I'm more likely to overpanic

It's quite obvious to me why I wasn't killed now, all three of you seem to agree on this stance... but are you sure scum didn't predict it and made the nightkill on pear for that reason..?

I don't think either of them have agreed with me, they've just said it's "interesting".

[catboi]

I'm sorry guys I was too pissed to play yesterday ;-; my brothers so annoying
In much better vibes today but its so hard to not jam out to my weeb songs

Really? What are your reads right now?

I think t3's lil push for jailor to out is kinda scummy, also how he hammered norwegianboyee so soon after he entered the game... just feels like he didn't wanna give the effort to give in depth reads
Otherwise, i'm not really sure.. but I think vfp feel kinda weird idk how to explain well, but like... well I just don't really like what he's done so far. since I townread pearofclubs, his read on them didn't really sit right with me originally. His thoughts could be valid tho, since he has an outsiders pov on it and wasn't there in the moments.. But idk it just seems to be pushing at really nothing..? Pearofclubs would be such an easy push for a scum to make without getting blood on their hands, since they're majorly townread.

So like my order would prob be t3 -> vfp -> catboi -> not mafia -> pearofclubs -> meuh

What're your reads as of right now? It'll be good to have the information around, should you end up flipping green today- and even if you don't get elimmed, it'll be good to have your thoughts on the books before the days end.

How many votes am I at..? I'll claim if I need to, but i'm not sure if I need to now.. or if i should wait a bit longer..?

I think that t3 and vfp are scum.

Why those 2?

I don't like t3 trying to out jailkeep when it could easily be multiple things + their vote yesterday was stinky
I don't like vfps push on pearofclubs, it just seems like something hes doing to not get any blood on his hands, y'know?

So, again we see this: she FoSes VFP, but names T3 as her first read. She keeps the slot as potential scum but tries to push elsewhere fisrt. This is fairly typical scumplay. Also very notable is her justification for scumreading VFP in that last post: she says he's trying "to not get any blood on his hands", which dosen't really make sense. I don't see any way in which VFP's push on pear was him trying to stay clean. I'm not great at spotting bussing, I admit, but I think this is the type of thing that fits the bill: scum are predisposed to see their partners as scummier than they actually are, and so they so they will tend to FoS their partners early, but have a hard time justifying it in a way that makes sense. That read on VFP reads like someone who knows he is scum but dosen't have a good way to explain it, so they're making something up.

615 (praying its the right post) seems like VFPS just latching onto the bandwagon lukewarm has been trying to get going... in efforts to save himself maybe? Pretty scummy imo.

And then,

I don't have a scum read on VFP atm. I currently have them as a null read. I would need some good arguments built around him being scum before I would be willing to vote for him.

seems like partners protecting eachother till death do them apart <3 (but not in a way to make it obvious)

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

So pears town okai. At this point its looking more like a VFP X Lukewarm.

Here again she's trying to tie lukewarm to VFP before he flips. Remember what I said about how scum like to tie people to their partners preflip? This feels like more of that.

No way a scum Lukewarm says: I'm not too sure about this vote and then hammers a partner.

how are you so sure hes town? from what you've been saying it seems like it.. but theres nothing clearing him so far..?
things like you've been mentioning can seem either or tbh.
-
he could've easily wanted to not vote him, but then get told to... so im confused why ur so confident

this game feels so solved already should we just end phase now..?

I think the only other thing we could do before we pass the vote is for Meuh, Pear, and Marci to all voice their opinion on me vs catboi tomorrow, just in case the vote on T3 does not end the game. In that scenario, which ever one of you do die overnight will have left something to help Day 4

I feel like it would be more likely you, i feel like catbois too helpful to be scum.

I'm so stressed rn because of classes i'm sorry i haven't been here so often. i feel so useless.

But now, here, on day 3, after VFP has flipped, marci doesn't mention anything of her VFPxLukewarm read from the day before, she's content to let us hang back and eliminate T3 without much protest. She barely mentions he read from the day beore, not even to say she's changed it, and that to me is suspicious.

[catboi]

T3
iN3krO

Meuh

NM

marcistar
catboi

Pearofclubs

Initial reads, marcistar as scum but above me and pear. FoS your buddy, push on townies.

NorwegianboyEE's wagon is never an all town wagon here.

NorwegianboyEE (5): Pearofclubs, iN3krO, catboi, Meuh, T3 [HAMMER]

I'll be honest: I never investigated this becaue I think VCA is bunk. I completely forgot who voted Norwee until today. And suddenly, looking at it, what do I see? VFP trying to put out the idea that scum HAS to be on the wagon, when at a minimum 4/5 people were. The only player alive whose slot was not on the day 1 wagon? marcistar.

But that's not really how it works. Sometimse townies make dumb decisions, and are pressured by constraints of the deadline into voting (like what happened with T3). Scum will absolutely try to stay off an elim wagon if they can help it.

Quite often, you will see people trying to advance the logic that scum were voting on an incorrect elimination. This is a logical fallacy, by pure math it would happen about 16.7% of the time in a 9 player setup if everyone voted randomly. Those aren't insignificant chances at all. The fact that VFP was making that argument makes me think he was trying to argue for restricting eliminations to a pool he knew was all town.

I'm making this its own post because that line that was hidden in the spoiler has just strengthened my read greatly.

[catboi]

VFP, thoughts onmarci?

228 is a good post from town mind set plus pushing the game forward, but majority of their posting is just fence sitting and safe for me.
I can go into more detail if you want though but I'd rather lim here than Catboi from my bottom 3.

Although he says here he'd rather vote her, it's a very vague read with not a lot of detail to his suspicion. He doesn't really actively push marci, just asks her a few weak questions elsewhere in 525. ("why didn't you vote norwee?" is notably nonsensical)

I haven't liked Marci's recent posts and considering the pressure being put on her, I'll go ahead and ISO her.

I'll VOTE:

Not_Mafia

for now since I like having my vote somewhere

I'm not liking this if Marci is scum, but I'm sure a follow up will ease my thoughts here.

Here we see it again: he's drawing associations between Meuh and marcistar before either has flipped, trying to tie Meuh to marci if marci flips scum - he's lining up a push for if marci gets voted out.

Meuh is always town here for me.
Marci lim works for me and I think we just win with Meuh, T3, and iN3krO as town here.
Marci scum makes NM town and iN3krO is plausibly the partner for 513
Marci town just means 2 scum in Pear, Catboi, and NM

more attempts to try to tie marci to other people before she flips

And you think day 2 when we stopped the kill n1 is time for a deep wolf push

Of course. Pear is getting off lightly for ticking the scum boxes.
The fact they still haven't gone over iN3krO after 2 requests makes me think they just can't generate another fake read. 542 also shows that they are not reading the game as I already stated why you and Marci aren't scum together.

I'll vote betwen Pear, Marci, and Catboi at this point.

Marci is currently E1 (I think?) and I'll hammer if it comes to it but I want some input first since little has been said since I joined in.
At no point have I said I am limited to Pear only.

Big one - although he's consistently FoSed marci, he avoids actually voting her at any point, and when she's at E-1, voids hammering, saying he wants "input" first. I would be surprised at scum passing up an opportunity to hammer town if given so. I would have been screaming at him to do so givemn that I had felt marci had been softclaiming a power role - sure, he'd get voted out afterwards but it would be too good an opportunity to pass up.

Regardless I'm pretty sure this is just a win.
Meuh not visiting makes them town here as they would have been visiting for either the kill or the Rolecop.
Pear being protected means town.
2 PR claims not CC.

This means we have 4 town out of 7 going into night 2.
Scum are only possible to be in me, T3, Catboi, and Lukewarm.

I don't think T3 is scum here so the pool narrows down to me, Catboi, and Lukewarm with T3 as the additional.

NM dies tonight, we have 3 town and a clear on someone. Scum flip today means that we have 4 town out of 6 players.

There's really nothing to try and solve here.

But then, when the claim comes, unflinching acceptance. Barely even recognizes it. is content to push in the pool of supposed "unclears" we thought we had since N_M was claiming doctor. To me this doesn't feel like scum who is boxed in and is risking autoloss if their roleblocker teammate is caught. He's okay with this, likely because he knows his partner is safe for the day.

[catboi]

That's about it for my case. Read it over and let me know what you think. Tbh, although I had some doubts still going in, I really think the "never an all town wagon" comment from VFP just solves the game.

₍₍ ᕕ(´ ω` )ᕗ⁾⁾

marcistar: your first instinct here is going to be to argue against my case. That, of course, is fine, you have the right to offer a rebuttal. But, ultimately, arguing that you are town oly goes so far in a mafia game. The best way to clear yourself is by showing that someone else is mafia. If I'm wrong, and it's not you, then who is mafia? I need you to answer that question for me.

[catboi]

There's no need to feel rushed. We have a week. I do want to see who you think is mafia, even though you're my main suspect right now.

[catboi]

No rush. Take your time.

I must admit while it's nice that my case is being considered the fact that the response from both meuh and lukewarm is essentially "yeah that makes sense" is a little unnerving >_>

[catboi]

No rush. Take your time.

I must admit while it's nice that my case is being considered the fact that the response from both meuh and lukewarm is essentially "yeah that makes sense" is a little unnerving >_>

My mentality coming into this day was that you were 95% scum, so my energy is shifted towards going over the alternate possibilities and their validity, and while ofc confbias is a thing, everything is lined up in a way where Marci could very well be fakeclaiming. I haven't really made my mind up on if I do think it is her, and there's no rush really, I was just making sure the theory stood strong enough to warrant being considered, and it does

Basically, same.

I came into today thinking we were going to have two clear players + me + catboi, and that meant it was 100% catboi from my pov. But his case on Marci makes enough sense that I am no longer at 100%. Suddenly I have a new problem to solve

Did town!catboi spend night 3 scouring for an alternative scum because he townread me (see post 869) and spotted this fakeclaim from marci
OR
Did scum!catboi spend night 3 scouring for the best person to shift suspicion to after he thought he would lose the 1v1 with me (see post 878) and he came up with a plan to blame marci?

I think if I were scum looking to 1v1 you, I could make arguments there, and it's easier to to fight that way and "win" an argument because scum and town will act similarly in this situation - both know their elimination will lose the game and that voting the other person wins it.

I also think I *can* make a very strong argument for me being town but don't want to just yet, because I do want to get a sense of if people are legitimately solving or not.

[catboi]

Meuh, which way are you leaning atm? Personally, I am struggling

Like, I read through Marci's iso, and I start leaning towards it being her, and then I read through catboi's iso and I start leaning towards it being him.

Can you explain your thinking? Vague statements like this are unhelpful.

[catboi]

Ah, marci...so this is the path you've chosen. I'm assuming you're scum who sees pushing me as your best hope, but I'll give what you say a look.

[catboi]

I'm not going to respond to every point here, just some of the ones I feel are most important, because a long blow by blow becomes tedious and hard to read.

447 Just doesn't really sit right with me.. Like, we now know that there was a jailkeep, and that samawoodoo/vfp slot was scum.. So like this reaction really just seems like he thought in3kro could've been jailkeep at the time because of that vote..
Like, seems like a slight push, but not a quite obvious one and an easy to backout one. +He was so wary about that time about anything pertaining to a jailkeep... I feel like it's very possible he was scared of jailkeep outing his partner, since there was no kill for the first night, scum was surely aware of the possibility?

Why would I assume he could be jailkeeper right after him explicitly claiming he wasn't?

I can't say for certain, but if someone puts a naked vote on my partner, I'm more likely to ignore it than to question it. in3kro barely explained most of their reads in the game, my question was to try to get a little more explanation from him to read him better (and I might have thought Sama was a plausible suspect at the time and wanted to hear if there was a good case, I don't really remember).

608 after i claim tracker he unvoted me... but said he just wanted my claim out in the open..? Like, what townie wants their prs exposed to scum..?
(when I later questioned it.., he responded with 731. at the time, it felt like good reasoning, but now looking back on it with the view that he's scum it very much just seems like he wanted me 100% outed so he would know how to best use his na )

If I had a PR read as scum, I wouldn't push them so they'd claim. I'd let them say hidden in the dark so I could NK them without fear of them being protected.

642 he tries to push forth the motion that he doesnt have a partner, which... isn't all that believeable if its coming from the person themselves

the reason I said that at the time was that I believed the setup was B3, and we had 4 clear town and a pool of 4 unclears (me, VFP, T3, and Lukewarm) which had to contain 2 mafia. In that scenario, mafia bussing means an automatic loss. All of VFP, T3, and Lukewarm were voting me. In my view at that moment in time, the mafia were piling on to me because they needed to eliminate town to avoid losing. If I were mafia in this scenario, my partner would be bussing me into autoloss, and I'd have been screaming at them to not vote me so we wouldn't lose. At that moment in time there wasn't anyone I could reasonably be said to be scum with.

934 (and another post that i forgot which) tries to say im "scum trying to tie townies down to their partner" essentially, right? but wouldn't town be trying to keep their eyes out for possible duos?
In 934 he also brought up the fact that I was susing a vfp x lukewarm team, but then didnt follow through with it, but in the post he straightup quoted then, i said im stressed. I wasn't very active that day because of my stress, so would i really be able to follow through at that point? He brought it up, just to incriminate me, while its not really something that should be viewed as "sus" imo.

While I think town can make reads about possible teams, and often do (as several people have this game), I think the particular practice of doing pre-flip associations where someone gets tied to scum is something mafia do very frequently. By itself, I wouldn't consider it a strong point, but given your overall progression on samawoodo/VFP, and VFP exhibiting a similar behavior toward you, I find it a suspect sort of interaction.

Listen, I can't know that you were stressed. And that can be entirely true regardless of what goes on in the game. I can only report what I see, which is that while you tried to say VFP and Lukewarm were teamed the day before, the day after when the momentum went in another direction, you didn't say anything. Why WOULDN'T I find that suspect?

[catboi]

937 he makes the point that vfp avoided voting me when i was at e-1 but... wouldn't it be so obviously scummy of him to hammer me, and then i end up as tracker? don't townies think about that too and wait for claims..? It's not really all that incriminating imo.

Doesn't matter if it's incriminating, a free elimination is still a free elimination. Granted, not everyone has guts to quickhammer on a ML as scum. But the fact that he held back patiently when he had been FoSing her for most of his time in the game and then just sort of quietly accepted marci's claim is what I find suspect.

[catboi]

Npw, let me towncase myself:

I don't think I can be cleared based on my read of VFP. It was simply not good on my part. It happens, my reads as town typically aren't that great and I'm very all over the pace. I probably gave him too much credit for having an "unorthodox" scum read. I hesitantly thought he was townie and even when I switched to scumreading him I overreacted to lukewarm and voted him at a few points. I don't think I'd have interacted this way with him as scum, but you are under no obligation to believe me. I don't like bussing as scum, but when I do it, I commit to the read - hopping back and forth on VFP, as I did, jus gets the worst of both worlds, I increase the chances he gets eliminated while not securing much cred for myself. I would either have committed to pushing him on day 2 or stuck with voting lukewarm. But self-meta arguments like this are wifom, and none of you really know me, so I don't expect you to believe that. That's okay. You don't have to.

What I do think town clears me is this:

@Not_Mafia:

thoughts on Tori?

@Samawoodo:

thoughts on Catboi?

@Tori:

thoughts on Marci and Sama?

@iN3krO:

thoughts on Sama and Tori?

@NorwegianboyEE:

Could you explain how your read on Sama evolved from #68 to #125?

@Marci:

Thoughts on Tori?

@Pearofclubs:

Thoughts on Marci and Sama?

@Catboi:

Thoughts on N_M and Norwee?

I'm going to pointedly refuse to answer this and instead ask why you felt the need to ask everyone about different people.

Ok i didnt read this when i wrote my previous post

I dont see the point of that tbh, i mean, is not like he asked you for a 2v2 or something like that (anyway, that wouldn't be a problem either). Is like you are being so defensive without reason (We are at D1 still)

If someone ask about my thoughts, i wouldnt have any problem sharing them

I hope you are not afraid of sharing them

This response from Sama to me isn't how a newbie responds to their partner. He's shading me for not answering Meuh. Newbies generally won't call out their partner so directly in position like this.

I do think VFP is probably townie.

VOTE: VFP

I guess I'll compromise. I don't think I fos not_mafia anymore.

A bit of a change of heart there?

I can lim Catboi today as it's probably just catboi and Pear with NM as the back up.
608 was just basically trying to get a confirmation of a PR.

VOTE: Catboi

When I voted him on day 2, before not_mafia had even claimed, VFP immediately pushed back onto me. In this scenario,

if I were the mafia roleblocker, VFP bussing me would be an automatic loss

. mafia aren't going to make plays like this. I'd be telling him not to do it. And I'm the

only

one he pushes, for the rest of the day up until the point he's eliminated:

I'm not CC here.
So Pear is actually town then. Catboi is flipping red here.

Catboi is still the better vote in terms of giving an extra clear with a scum down, but I think it's still a win regardless.
T3 is going to be town here and Catboi / Lukewarm are going to be the scum team.

Just go with that and don't let anyone de rail tomorrow.

My concern with this post, is that if you do flip town, that would leave the PoE down to me+caboi, which I already know is not true

Then lim Catboi and work it from there.

The simple fact is that if I were scum with VFP then he was actively trying to lose the game from midway on day 2. Mafia don't bus into autoloss. It just doesn't happen. There's no way I make sense as scum with VFP.

[catboi]

If you want some meta, this is the game I played with marcistar before this one: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85388

She got suspected early but I found her to be fairly obvious town. Her reads were actually pretty good that game, mine were a mess. I think I checked it earlier in this game, from memory she was somewhat cautious in her reads that game but still was more proactive which is why I suspected her on day 2 in this game

[catboi]

(the meta is not really part of my case, but since you asked I am presenting it so that you may draw your own conclusions to the question you asked)

[catboi]

Meuh, which way are you leaning atm? Personally, I am struggling

Like, I read through Marci's iso, and I start leaning towards it being her, and then I read through catboi's iso and I start leaning towards it being him.

Can you explain your thinking? Vague statements like this are unhelpful.

Just for the record, since I've laid most of my cards on the table already:

Lukewarm? This post scared the hell out of me. Because in all my experience playing mafia, I often find scum say things like this at ELO. The fencesitting without visible commitment or analysis, I've seen it many times.

Now, that doesn't mean it's inherently scummy. Town can make posts that sound very scummy, and they can fencesit as well, especially in a situation like this. So it's a post town

can

make. But it's also a post scum

would

make, because when two townies are attacking each other scum want to seem like they're giving them consideration but don't want to make the first move. So I asked you because I want to see your thinking behind things, rather than just words about how you're feeling, so I can hopefully get a handle on whether it's believable.

Now, I'm not acting hastily and changing my mind on a single post here. I learned my lesson from doing that before. I'm not going to discard the evidence from all the rest of the game for a hasty judgment based on a paranoid read of something that only happened this game day. (in fact, when I was looking back at VFP's ISO, I felt his final comments toward you were somewhat un-partnery)

But as I'm being completely transparent with my thought process right now, I just felt I should be open with how I felt about this post. (If you're town, don't say stuff like this!)

[catboi]

@Meuh, on the other hand, this is a post from catboi that stood out to me.

If T3 or marci express a willingness to vote me I'll claim.

Like it is hard to see this, and not think it is a soft pr claim.

It further irks me because at the time that he made this post, he only had 2 votes on him. So he was no where near being voted off, so it was not a "if someone is about to hammer me, I will claim my role as VT"

I thought at the time there were multiple people scumreading me and that it was possible I'd end up as the default wagon since there wasn't someone else people were really pushing.

I'm stubborn about claiming though, you can see it in the other game, where I got run up on day 1:

Yeah, I absolutely am not claiming unless there's intent to hammer, that'd be a bad idea. I'll vote Lone if necessary for self-preservation.

I don't think I really softclaim as either alignment, but if I was going to hint at a PR as mafia I probably would just claim it rather than claiming VT.

[catboi]

I think in that game I got suspected because I made a big deal about claiming too. I don't want to reread the whole thing though because my play was embarrassing

[catboi]

Ahh, I see.

[catboi]

I am not sure how that out-of-thread quote is supposed to clear you here?
In that game you said "I absolutely am not claiming unless there's intent to hammer" but then in this game, you said "If T3 or marci express a willingness to vote me I'll claim." while only having 2 votes on you. And that seems like two different approaches to take if you were VT in both games

And I am not sure that it would necessarially make sense for scum!you to follow thorugh with the claim, given the gamestate.
You made what could be taken as a soft claim in post 629, and then not long after Not_Mafia claimed doc in post 649. So I could see scum!you soft claiming, but changing direction once Not_Mafia claimed their role.

Reading through a duel iso between you and Not_Mafia makes it look like he thought the same thing. Since he knew he was the jailkeeper, and Marci had not been CC'ed, then you hinting at being a PR would have been a major red flag from his PoV.
Spoiler:

At first blush I took it as a soft claim. I thin k that multiple other players did t oo. If I am remembering correctly, both T3 and Marci commented on it, and like I showed in the spoilers, not_mafia voted not long after it.

628, Not_Mafia wrote:Did catboi just slip we're in Tracker/Doc/RolecopIn post 629, catboi wrote:If T3 or marci express a willingness to vote me I'll claim.I think Lukewarm is playing like obvscum, beyond that I don't have strong reads to leaveIn post 630, catboi wrote:In post 628, Not_Mafia wrote:Did catboi just slip we're in Tracker/Doc/RolecopI made a guess.In post 631, Not_Mafia wrote:Based on what?In post 632, catboi wrote:In post 631, Not_Mafia wrote:Based on what?based on T3 trying to draw out jailkeeper claims and me straight-up forgetting that jailkeeper+tracker could be a thingIn post 634, Not_Mafia wrote:T3 vote catboiAt first blush I took it as a soft claim. I think that multiple other players did too. If I am remembering correctly, both T3 and Marci commented on it, and like I showed in the spoilers, not_mafia voted not long after it.

1. It's actually not clearing whatsoever! Because I can't demonstrate that I

don't

act that way as scum! But I brought it up because I actually thought it was similar to this game. If you don't see it, thats ok, but for me the experience

feels

similar, but my perception is obviously biased.

The main difference is the circumstances around the wagon on me - in that game, it was day 1 and a lot of the players were weirdly tunnely, I wanted to avoid claiming unless forced to. I wasn't sure that there would be another player who would vote me in that game, for one thing, and for another, I know that Day 1 VT claims very often voted out. (I eventually claimed out of frustration anyway). But

in that game, I was deliberately ambiguous about my claim at first because I wanted to give the impression I might be a PR.

In almost any game as town I try be as ambiguous about my role as possible because making your role obvious for the mafia is bad.

In this game, at the time, people were scattered and divided, and and I thought it was possible the wagon on me would stick simply because there wasn't an option elsewhere. So I made that post. It wasn't intended to give the impression I was a PR this time, but my attitude is largely the same - I also didn't want to give away the fact that I was VT too early, because there's no pro-town benefit to that.

Not_Mafia had been tunneling me since day 1 because I incorrectly scumread him, his turn to voting me after that post does not mean he felt I was softclaiming.

I don't mean to seem disrespectful but the crux of your case for me possibly being scum is you

imagining

a post I made

could

be a softclaim, and that's incredibly stupid. It's attributing malign motive to a post anyone could have made that is ultimately incredibly insignificant in the oveerall scope of the game. This is an incredibly terrible way to scumhunt. If you were interrogating me over my bad read of VFP, I'd get it. But this is an incredibly frustrating accusation to defend against because it's based entirely on something you've made up in your head about a single post.

Your argument amounts to: I think catboi softclaimed in a post to get a wagon off him, so he could be scum. That's absolutely terrible reasoning. What about my overall play? What about VFP pushing me harder than anyone else after the jailkeeper claim? To potentially base your evaluation of me

on a single post about claiming that should be NAI

is...just ludicrous.

[catboi]

When that's the thing you're bringing up to discuss in ELO, and not mentioning the other things, I assume it's the main part of your read. It's not a good point. Do you think I should be back reading you to find other reasons you suspect me when you're not talking about them today?

[catboi]

Also I can't possibly know whether you still hold your old reasons for scumreading me or whether they've evolved with the game

[catboi]

re: 684 - even if I didn't articulate a reason, I had said on day 1 I felt like pear was genuinely trying to solve the game and that didn't change on day 2. I couldn't actually articulate iit in a strong way because the read was mostly based on ~feelings~ rather than anything concrete


and my god, do you possibly think I respond to a partner that way? that I "disingenuously" defend the town my teammate is pushing on, that we tried to nightkill? Look at the context!

[catboi]

I see now. It appears the issue is that I am not tailoring my posts in a way for you to start defending yourself, and you think that I should be/you want to start

I am not saying that. I am simply responding to the information you have put out. I would appreciate it if you would fully articulate these things at some point, rather than remaining closed off, but I'm not asking you to "tailor" your posts for me. I just did not understand what you were doing and assumed the things you were talking about were the main part of what you were thinking about the game. Please stop taking personal offense at this. I am going to critique your reasoning. That's what happens in these games. Reacting emotionally to disagreement is only going to hurt your decision-making.

[catboi]

lol. You thought that was an emotional reaction? That was like the most detached response I think I could make.

And I don't have any intention to restructure my entire schedule to make a case post just to suit the timeline you have for how I should be playing the game.

Yes, it appeared you were addressing me in a condescending manner which seemed to come from being fed up with what I'm saying. Immediately accusing me of making unreasonable demands of you felt like a severe overreaction that comes from someone whose judgment is clouded by irrationality and bristles at the slightest bit of friction.

[catboi]

It does feel like you are constantly reacting to my posts in ways that I am not intending for them to be taken

I mean, exact same

[catboi]

Spoiler:

No rush. Take your time.

I must admit while it's nice that my case is being considered the fact that the response from both meuh and lukewarm is essentially "yeah that makes sense" is a little unnerving >_>

My mentality coming into this day was that you were 95% scum, so my energy is shifted towards going over the alternate possibilities and their validity, and while ofc confbias is a thing, everything is lined up in a way where Marci could very well be fakeclaiming. I haven't really made my mind up on if I do think it is her, and there's no rush really, I was just making sure the theory stood strong enough to warrant being considered, and it does

Basically, same.

I came into today thinking we were going to have two clear players + me + catboi, and that meant it was 100% catboi from my pov. But his case on Marci makes enough sense that I am no longer at 100%. Suddenly I have a new problem to solve

Did town!catboi spend night 3 scouring for an alternative scum because he townread me (see post 869) and spotted this fakeclaim from marci
OR
Did scum!catboi spend night 3 scouring for the best person to shift suspicion to after he thought he would lose the 1v1 with me (see post 878) and he came up with a plan to blame marci?

I think if I were scum looking to 1v1 you, I could make arguments there, and it's easier to to fight that way and "win" an argument because scum and town will act similarly in this situation - both know their elimination will lose the game and that voting the other person wins it.

I also think I *can* make a very strong argument for me being town but don't want to just yet, because I do want to get a sense of if people are legitimately solving or not.

I disagree with this honestly, town was leaning towards you being scummier than Lukewarm, so avoiding that is something you could’ve done and even if the Marci idea were to not work, you can always fall back on a case against Lukewarm, I really don’t have a problem imagining Scum!Catboi pushing Marci here
(I’m on my phone so sprry if any of my formatting is bad or if I leave any spelling mistakes, this is kinda hard to navigate and I don’t feel like spending a bunch of time fixing my posts)

Well, I don't think I

would

, but I definitely

could

. Ultimately this is all just speculationand I think there's always a scenario where anyone could have done something as scum, but it's your job to decide who is more likely to be scum

[catboi]

Spoiler:

No rush. Take your time.

I must admit while it's nice that my case is being considered the fact that the response from both meuh and lukewarm is essentially "yeah that makes sense" is a little unnerving >_>

My mentality coming into this day was that you were 95% scum, so my energy is shifted towards going over the alternate possibilities and their validity, and while ofc confbias is a thing, everything is lined up in a way where Marci could very well be fakeclaiming. I haven't really made my mind up on if I do think it is her, and there's no rush really, I was just making sure the theory stood strong enough to warrant being considered, and it does

Basically, same.

I came into today thinking we were going to have two clear players + me + catboi, and that meant it was 100% catboi from my pov. But his case on Marci makes enough sense that I am no longer at 100%. Suddenly I have a new problem to solve

Did town!catboi spend night 3 scouring for an alternative scum because he townread me (see post 869) and spotted this fakeclaim from marci
OR
Did scum!catboi spend night 3 scouring for the best person to shift suspicion to after he thought he would lose the 1v1 with me (see post 878) and he came up with a plan to blame marci?

I think if I were scum looking to 1v1 you, I could make arguments there, and it's easier to to fight that way and "win" an argument because scum and town will act similarly in this situation - both know their elimination will lose the game and that voting the other person wins it.

I also think I *can* make a very strong argument for me being town but don't want to just yet, because I do want to get a sense of if people are legitimately solving or not.

I disagree with this honestly, town was leaning towards you being scummier than Lukewarm, so avoiding that is something you could’ve done and even if the Marci idea were to not work, you can always fall back on a case against Lukewarm, I really don’t have a problem imagining Scum!Catboi pushing Marci here
(I’m on my phone so sprry if any of my formatting is bad or if I leave any spelling mistakes, this is kinda hard to navigate and I don’t feel like spending a bunch of time fixing my posts)

Well, I don't think I

would

, but I definitely

could

. Ultimately this is all just speculationand I think there's always a scenario where anyone could have done something as scum, but it's your job to decide who is more likely to be scum

What makes this decision hard is that both options are the most logical decision for either one of you to make as scum.

Marci fake claiming tracker would have been the best play for scum!marci to make
AND
You looking for the best target to shift blame to Night 3, and settling on this marci push would have been the best play for scum!you to make.

Are you trying to say that if you were scum, and you spotted an accusation against Marci that lined up damn near perfectly, you would not have jump on this accusation?
Because I find that hard to believe.

Hum, I probably would jump on it I'm not sure I would notice that angle in the first place, but can't really deny that as scum I would make the case I feel has the highest chance for success. I think people are

very

reluctant to disbelieve PR claims in newbie games, though. The thing is, when you're manufacturing reads, you don't have to genuinely solve so you aren't analyzing and considering every angle, I'd be more likely to look at what's right in front of me and say "what's the best case I can make for lukewarm-scum", and not read anyone else. (but, again, self-meta doesn't mean a whole lot)

[catboi]

(but, again, self-meta doesn't mean a whole lot)

You can say that again. As of post 968, I was leaning pretty strongly towards Marci being the vote today, and really was just waiting to hear Meuh's response to post 965 before I settled in to that being the case I was going to build. But every time you have tried to defend yourself, I have been left less sure its her

Speaking of which, @Meuh can you make sure to respond to Post 965 - 968

Well, I thik if muy posting has been offputting you should remember what gets said today isn't the most important thing - the most revealing evidence is on all the days before this. I think getting dragged down because someone's posting in ELO sounds "off" to you is a mistake. Like how you sounding like you were fencesitting earlier pinged me, but I didn't flip my entire read on it. I just was upfront with what made me uneasy and asked you to clarify.

[catboi]

It is not that I am "getting dragged down because someone's posting in ELO sounds "off." It is much more like you keep reminding me why I was scum reading you earlier in the game. Like I had you near the top of my scum read list during my catchup on Day 1... and I had you as my top scum read Day 2... And even at the start of this day, you were my scum read. How dumb would I feel post game if I literally scum read you the entire game, and still lost to scum!catboi because he managed to side track me last min.

I think at this point I am going to have to build full cases against both of you tomorrow, because I have been pulled back to uncertainty

I dunno. That's always a fear, I guess. I've lost because of second-guessing myself and it sucks. But it also sucks to lose because you were tunneling and ignored the things that changed your mind. Like, if you were scumreading me all game, it's likely that something about the way I write just registers as scummy to you. But if that's the case you need to step back and re-evaluate based on new evidence, rather than just pressing on the same things all game. The me/VFP relationship doesn't make sense as a scum pair, if you really look at it - I weakly defend him and only vote him late, while he's pushing me as scum when that would be an autoloss if I were eliminated as roleblocker? Doesn't make sense. There's no strategy in it.

[catboi]

Ah, marci...so this is the path you've chosen. I'm assuming you're scum who sees pushing me as your best hope, but I'll give what you say a look.

Why would scum be committing to a wagon this early? Marci looks town for that vote imo

Huh? If she's scum here, she knows that I am correctly reading her and am unlikely to change my mind, so her best bet is to push me. Committing to a vote early in ELO isn't a towntell.

[catboi]

Ah, marci...so this is the path you've chosen. I'm assuming you're scum who sees pushing me as your best hope, but I'll give what you say a look.

Why would scum be committing to a wagon this early? Marci looks town for that vote imo

Huh? If she's scum here, she knows that I am correctly reading her and am unlikely to change my mind, so her best bet is to push me. Committing to a vote early in ELO isn't a towntell.

Eh yeah ig for her specifically here it wouldn't, I just feel like fence-sitting and keeping doors open is something scum like to do, making voting kinda scary for them here, not that voting is pro-town.

In this phase of the game, that's often correct! But it's not always the case, plus I asked her to provide a read before this, not coming back with one looks bad. Again not a key point against her, just my perception of what was going on at that moment in time.

[catboi]

marci hasn't posted in 24 hours. I'm ok with voting her but wanted to give her a chance to respond first.

[catboi]

If this is scum!Catboi and we miselim Marci that'd be so embarassing I'm actually so scared of that, T3 will have every right to yell at us post-game

While I understand the concern about the dead's reads, T3 was operating under the false assumption that it was between me and lukewarm. So was everyone at the time. So it's not like he'd weighed in on whether marci was possibly scum, and his read on me was entirely based in process of elimination in that he didn't think it was lukewarm. He didn't have independent reasons for scumreading me.

[catboi]

Yeah that's what I do.


I think I wan to hammer test lukewarm right now to be sure we're not wasting time. Lukewarm, you still around?

[catboi]

NVM. maybe tomorrow.

[catboi]

I'm back, catching up

[catboi]

I'm seeing lukewarm has descended into a confirmation biased tunnel against me. I recognize this behavior and it's almost impossible to talk someone out of it but I'll try.

[catboi]

and I do think Marci's the kind of player who would come to her partner's defense, I don't think she would be throwing her partner under the bus and moving on, and if she was she'd have been more blatant about it instead of picking this awkward middle ground of contributing to VFP's elim, but also not getting much towncred out of it.

Why would she need to? At the time, everyone assumed her claim was confirmed town. She was facing no suspicion. In this scenario you don't need "towncred" and it's significantly easier to go with the flow. It was entirely possible no one would have suspected her at any point.

[catboi]

I'm reminded of why I hate playing newbie games.

[catboi]

If you're here, I'd like to hammer test now, before I go into arguing further.

[catboi]

VOTE: catboi

If you are town, please make a post confirming that you are town. Do not hammer me. I am not scum and this is not a confession, I simply wish to clear you from my perspective so the game becomes easier. If you're scum, just vote me here and end the game.

[catboi]

This is what I mean. If I'm wrong in my read and either of you are scum, there's no point in playing further so I'd like to end things here.

[catboi]

I'm shocked

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

[catboi]

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

You put too much stock in hollow words, and not enough in actions. So he said he'd prefer to lim her - what steps did he take towards actually making that happen?

You're viewing the game in overly simplistic terms . This tends to come from a lack of experience. Scum try to obscure connections between them. That's part of the game. You're seeing all the light distancing that took place between marci and her teammate, and assuming it somehow unaligns them, when in fact the opposite is true - they expressed suspicion of each other throughout the game but avoided exerting real pressure. That's textbook distancing. But you haven't played enough to realize this, you see something as basic as me misreading VFP and assuming we must be teamed because of that, when the opposite is true - I rarely ever defend a teammate the way I did VFP.

[catboi]

2 days left and I still don't know who I want elimed MELO is too hard I really wish I was dead rn
You're shocked, Catboi?

I guess my sarcasm didn't come through.

[catboi]

VOTE: marcistar

I don't have time to respond in full right now, I'll be back after dinner. I'd appreciate it if you let me talk before making any decision.

[catboi]

I hope the post I made didn't come across as condescending. I'm trying to not be a jerk but this situation is incredibly frustrating which makes it hard, I've had to edit myself to hold back but I'm not always sure how I come across.

[catboi]

I also felt like catboi's case against Marci required some mental gymnastics, and even required him to leave out some of her posts.

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

So pears town okai. At this point its looking more like a VFP X Lukewarm.

Here again she's trying to tie lukewarm to VFP before he flips. Remember what I said about how scum like to tie people to their partners preflip? This feels like more of that.

{snip}

this game feels so solved already should we just end phase now..?

I think the only other thing we could do before we pass the vote is for Meuh, Pear, and Marci to all voice their opinion on me vs catboi tomorrow, just in case the vote on T3 does not end the game. In that scenario, which ever one of you do die overnight will have left something to help Day 4

I feel like it would be more likely you, i feel like catbois too helpful to be scum.

I'm so stressed rn because of classes i'm sorry i haven't been here so often. i feel so useless.

But now, here, on day 3, after VFP has flipped, marci doesn't mention anything of her VFPxLukewarm read from the day before, she's content to let us hang back and eliminate T3 without much protest. She barely mentions he read from the day beore, not even to say she's changed it, and that to me is suspicious.

Right here, catboi's case completely ignores the fact that she had T3 listed as her number 1 scum read for almost all of Day 3 ( 485 / 513 / 549 / 552), and also when she said that in her mind VFP's partners were narrowed down to me/T3 before VFP flipped (771)

Catboi skipped over all of that, and tried to make is seem suspicious that she would be okay with T3 vote on Day3, because he cherry picked the single post she made where she only mentioned me+vfp and did not mention T3

Dead honest, here is how I operate: I look through people's ISOs and ctrl + F for mentions of flipped scum. that was how I pulled posts from marcistar. At that point in time, my main concern is not going over everything she said in explicit detail and making note of every post. At that point in time, I did not know who was mafia either. I was looking to solve between you and marcistar (Meuh wasn't a realistic possibility in my mind), and so I was looking for things that proved suspicious. So I zeroed in on posts that were important to me. That post in particular leapt out at me. If I gloss over the details it's not by design. But I don't think what you point out changes anything at all. In particular you seem to be giving 771 far too much credit - she explicitly says she thinks you could be partnered with VFP. The fact that she doesn't bring this up at all on day 3 is a sign she's not in a town mindset - she had no concern with solving or trying to look at the evidence, she just went with the flow and let us wagon T3 because it was necessary to win the game.

[catboi]

Meuh, do you have any questions for me? From my point of view you're the decider here but I don't actually know if you want me to say anything.

[catboi]

Lukewarm with all respect, you're in a confirmation bias tunnel. It's clear nothing I do or say matters to you. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. Your logic on me is wrong, just as your logic on was wrong on Pear, and wrong on VFP as well. I can't argue with you when your entire reasoning process is just...backwards. So I'll stop because it's clear we aren't going to have productive conversations.

When Not_Mafia puts the "VFP or Catboi" choice into the thread. Scum team catboi+VFP have no choice but to cross vote. But Marci could have agreed with me, and tried to shift the decision to catboi. In that scenario, I was the one being vocal about it not being VFP, so I would have been the obvious partner for him, not her.

Lukewarm is grossly oversimplfying the context of these events. Let me walk through what happened:

At that moment in time right before the claim, VFP's vote is glued on me, and I was voting N_M.

catboi (2): VFP, Meuh
Not_Mafia (2): T3, catboi

Not_Mafia claims here.

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

Meuh and T3 immediately jump on me to bring me to E-2.

catboi (3): VFP, Meuh, T3
Not_Mafia (1): catboi
VFP (1): Not_Mafia
marcistar (1): Pearofclubs
Not Voting (2): marcistar, Lukewarm

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate a player.

VFP makes this post right after:

I'm not CC here.
So Pear is actually town then. Catboi is flipping red here.

This is not a post scum who is bussing into autoloss makes.

At that moment, I assume I am likely to be eliminated. I intend to have lukewarm as my dying FOS and make a post, only to reconsider it just 3 minutes later because I looked at T3 and decided he and in3kro were never partners. From my point of view that meant VFP had to be mafia.

I'm town and not counterclaiming doctor.

I think scum intentionally tried to push pear to see who would defend them so they could narrow down the doctor. In that light VFP and Lukewarm both look terrible. I think T3 is the town out of that group, but I'm not sure of it.

Sorry my reads have been so terrible.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lukewarm

T3's immediate push on in3 means he and lukewarm are almost never aligned, actually, so VFP is probably the surest bet for scum. I'd go him tomorrow and then probably lukewarm but that's a weak guess.

VOTE: VFP

Not_Mafia sees I'm, doing and decides to vote VFP because I'm trying to solve.

Let’s go VFP actually

VOTE: VFP

catboi’s being too solvy

VFP makes another post. He continues to keep his vote on me. At no point does he try to divert the elimination elsewhere from a potential autoloss.

Not_Mafia second guesses and votes lukewarm.

VOTE: Lukewarm

Fuck it, flashwagon on Luke

I jump again, because I found the way lukewarm was arguing to be scummy.

Lukr and catboi are fighting with each other. Unless this is elaborate scum theatre they are not both scum. I am town. This leaves VFP as CONFIRMED SCUM.

I mean, we're not voting each other.

VOTE: Lukewarm

well, we weren't, anyhow

Here is the first time after Not_Mafia said "VFP or catboi" that marcistar posts:

catching up so hard

i wanna do that, but if i do that before posting my big post ive been writing will it all go to waste?

So, contextually, there was never a chance to marcistar to vote me. Now, she could have voted lukewarm, as there were two votes on him from me and N_M. Now, to her credit, she doesn't do this. She votes VFP. But there was no guarantee of a lukewarm vote going through, even if VFP switched. T3 was pushing hard for eliminating VFP:

Lukewarm, catboi. If you are town then you should not have trouble with voting VFP.

If me voicing my reads and concerns gets me vote out, it gets me voted out, but I am going to hold out hope my read can pass the vote for as long as possible.

I'm gonna leave my vote on Catboi until ~1 hour before the deadline, but will hammer either the VFP wagon or my own to avoid a no elim if needed.

If I die before then, let me just say for posterity, I'm pretty sure Catboi is scum.

We hear your reads. But if you vote VFP the town automatically wins.

So she votes VFP. As I've already said, this is a no-lose vote for her.

VOTE: VFP I tried looking at votes, I don't think this would be hammer, but i'm unsure. If It is i'm sorry for not announcing intention. I think this would be the best flip for today.

Sure, she loses her partner, but everyone is assuming her claim is automatically town. Lukewarm and I are tunneling each other. It's an ideal situation to bus for her because it seems likely that town will just push on each other and ignore her. Not_Mafia won't jail her after VFP flips, and she doesn't get suspected for trying to save scum. Bussing there was 0 risk for her. If, on the other hand, she had voted lukewarm, it's possible VFP gets elimmed the next day anyway and then it reflects worse on her. Further, there's no guarantee people vote VFP. The ideal scenario for her is she leaves a correct vote on VFP while town decides to eliminate elsewhere.

Meanwhile, VFP continues to vote only me, while saying I should be the elimination.

Catboi is still the better vote in terms of giving an extra clear with a scum down, but I think it's still a win regardless.
T3 is going to be town here and Catboi / Lukewarm are going to be the scum team.

Just go with that and don't let anyone de rail tomorrow.

whos left in the pool of scum?

t3, catboi and lukewarm?

Catboi and Lukewarm.

This would be terrible and nonsensical play as scum. I would be trying to save VFP from a wagon on him, while VFP continues to bus into autoloss. It doesn't make sense. Rather than even trying to vote elsewhere, he tries to persuade town Lukewarm to put the wagon on me:

My concern with this post, is that if you do flip town, that would leave the PoE down to me+caboi, which I already know is not true

Then lim Catboi and work it from there.

And as we can see from pear's unofficial count, at that point in time I was far more likely to get eliminated:

Just realized I'm still on Marci. UNVOTE:
So I just did my own votecounting, feel free to double check but:

Catboi:

3 (VFP, T3, Lukewarm)

Lukewarm:

2 (Catboi, Not-Mafia)

VFP:

1 (marcistar)

Not Voting

2 (Meuh, Pearofclubs)

So we're really not actually that close to a hammer (A proper votecount would be appreciated)

I'm fine with going for Catboi today, I've already put forward that I'm thinking it's Catboi/VFP.

Just wanted everyone to know where we stand.

To believe that VFP is scum with me, you'd have to believe he was deliberately gamethrowing at this point in time.

This is getting long, so let me make one more point about marci in my next post:

[catboi]

After voting VFP, here's the posts marci makes:

So if that was the plan for D2, I have to look at VFP who pushed me from the get-go day 2. Ink3ro flat out didn't understand the scumread on me.
It's VFP/Catboi, methinks.

Theres no importance over which one to get right..? Since its just a rolecop game?

I'm not sure who would be VFP's teammate but he sure is the scummyest.

[quote="In post 729, marcistar"

I mean I don't think they'd just hop off the wagon immediately after Marci's claim, that'd look worse than just pushing on Pear

I'm confused at this post, can you explain pretty please?

My point was that your claim put this game in the B2 slot. If the mafia was pushing on Pear because they believed the kill was prevented by a jailkeeper (which would mean the jailkeeper wouldn't know Pear is town), then knowing it's in B2 would shift their perspective on if they should push on Pear or not. However, the people pushing on Pear wouldn't completely stop pushing him because of this, since it'd look scummy to hop off the wagon suddenly.
This isn't a very important post to understand though honestly so dw
AHHH okay thanks I understand now

if we vibing, wheres the alien twerk meuh smh smh!!

Spoiler:

how do we even send gifs

idk it looks weird

WAIT THATS THE ONE YES

WAIT THATS THE ONE YES

Something.... something has happened to the chat while I was typing that message

I know you enjoy it stop hiding the truth!!! Alien twerk is just natural for people to love

I'm curious: if he flips green, who is everyone looking towards for tomorrow, and if he flips red, who you guys think he could be partnered with.

Green - I'll probably look more into t3 because of how hard hes been pushing in the recent posts. and then catboi, because I dont see lukewarm x t3 in the case of a town flip here.
Red - You, but otherwise i'm unsure. Specifically we have to search in the group of you/t3/catboi essentially. catboi feels unlikely in this scenario, but im unsure. So it still leaves you/t3 LOL.

She largely fluffposts, and only makes a single post saying "VFP is the scummiest" without any actual reasoning. She doesn't advocate or push for his elimination at all. She doesn't care. Acting like this is clearing for her, because she voted VFP and didn't push him is ridiculous. She didn't convince anyone to vote VFP yet Lukewarm is crediting her like she singlehandedly drove the wagon. Again, that's an ideal scenario as scum: bus weakly while town screws itself up by voting other people.

[catboi]

And, on one final note, VFP was voting me BEFORE Not_Mafia had even claimed:

I do think VFP is probably townie.

VOTE: VFP

I guess I'll compromise. I don't think I fos not_mafia anymore.

A bit of a change of heart there?

I can lim Catboi today as it's probably just catboi and Pear with NM as the back up.
608 was just basically trying to get a confirmation of a PR.

VOTE: Catboi

Even under the assumption we had sussed n_m as likely PR (which makes no sense seeing as I voted him), he would still be bussing into autoloss with his vote on me. Then, after I voted him here, I unvoted again and pushed elsewhere, ruining any potential credit I would get from a bus, and making it much more likely that

I/b] get eliminated, rather than VFP. It makes no sense whatsoever as scum play.

Under lukewarm's logic, I am scum who was trying to save my partner, but my partner was bussing me into autoloss, but that doesn't matter because lukewarm has decided he was obligated to do so, but I somehow wasn't required to push back on VFP.

Lukewarm just wants to see me as scum no matter what and so warps his view of events to fit the narrative he wants, ignoring the fact that what VFP and I were doing would be the absolute worst scumplay possible. If I were trying to save him, why would he push me instead of trying to get the vote on someone else? If he was willing to distance from me, why would I try to protect him rather than go all in on bussing him so I look good? What was my plan to win the game as scum supposed to be?

[catboi]

Can I vote Marci safely? There's 2 on Catboi and 1 on Marci rn right?
Marci scum makes so much more sense to me and I don't wanna stop myself from voting who I think is scum because of some bias I randomly thought up
If we lose because Catboi's really good at building solid cases and arguing, then that's a loss I'm willing to take, idc, but it's exhausting to act like Marci isn't the more likely scum here
Luke I'm 100% willing to take the blame for the loss if Marci's town at this point, if Catboi's scum he's played this game very well and has pocketed me perfectly

Yeah, you can vote her, lukewarm would have hammered me if he was scum. It's the right move but I have to hope lukewarm either stops tunneling or is willing to trust you.

[catboi]

I am really good at arguing regardless of alignment, TBH. That comes with experience. But I also don't make nonsensical plays as scum and the way VFP played around me would be some of the worst scumplay imaginable.

[catboi]

And decides "yep, I'm going to bus here." Not_Mafia is confirmed town at this point, and is currently leading the wagon away from her partner. Like where is her risk at just saying "I'm going to trust Not_Mafia here." And if both confirmed town were on the same wagon, that would have almost certainly saved her partner without it every bringing any suspicion on to herself

But it's not like she was under any suspicion anyway. So there was no risk to bussing. And that's self-evident in how she went under the radar for an entire day. So why not bus? You don't get any extra points for finishing with both mafia alive. It's a 100% safe vote.

[catboi]

I'm town. Assuming you didn't slowroll me earlier, we win

[catboi]

Thank you for listening to Meuh. Being willing to work with others and acknowledge your own fallibility is a critical part of this game.

[catboi]

Hope you're not trolling. Anyway, I'm off for the night

[catboi]

Sorry everyone, my reads were awful this game. I usually am not that bad, but Marcistar's style is one that just didn't ping me as scummy at all... Well played to them.

Lol don't feel bad about it, day 1 is hard, I shuldn't have voted you and you should never have been eliminated, that was a big fail on my part. ｍ（｡≧ _ ≦｡）ｍ


gg everyone~ (ノ￣ω￣)ノ

[catboi]

nice playing with you again marci~

best of luck with with school!