Newbie 2099 | GTA San Andreas | Endgame

[FancyPants]

VOTE: AlwaysNever

Wagon immediately or scum.

[FancyPants]

UNVOTE:
AlwaysNever just proved himself.

This post by goldfish is Garbage:

My Sus-ometer is going off I think I've found one of them VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon Rad do you want to join me?

Absolutely. Scum cannot be allowed to live.

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

I swear I get RVS'ed in every game I join, I must have a particularly suspicious username or something. That or I'm always scum

Reeks of appeasement, no vote, good job guys you got em.
VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

[FancyPants]

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

[FancyPants]

Also Goldfish is still scum, my vote was serious in case anyone was wondering.

[FancyPants]

I am the worst at reading anything that occurs in the RVS as I can never get a good read on anything going on. Everyone is seeming sus at this point to me lol.

WTF is this.

Bulba, can you add additional context to this comment please?

[FancyPants]

@Rad

How about this guy who's voting himself.

VOTE: AlwaysNever

You posted and voted.

I ask:

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?

You say:

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

I'm not all that experienced so I have no opinion on your scum question

and no history of rvs consistency to really point to. I only have 2 recently completed games and was only around for rvs stage in 1 of them because the second one I was a replace in.

You clearly do have an opinion about self voters, as you voted for AlwaysNever after he self voted.
Let me be explicit as you weaseled your way out of answering my question:

Why is Always never's self vote scummy in your eyes.

[FancyPants]

My Sus-ometer is going off I think I've found one of them VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon Rad do you want to join me?

Absolutely. Scum cannot be allowed to live.

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

I swear I get RVS'ed in every game I join, I must have a particularly suspicious username or something. That or I'm always scum

Goldfish is scum because of this post.

I feel like the response to incorrect pressure is outrage or at least annoyance, Goldfish gives us a wink, trying to appease.
Not a genuine town reaction.

[FancyPants]

@Bulbazoor, can you provide games where you were town and incorrect on day 1.
Otherwise as Elemk pointed out you're just pre-preparing excuses for being ineffective on day 1.

[FancyPants]

Also did Bulbasaur OMGUS Rad.

I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really.

Why Elemk?

[FancyPants]

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

i am used to 24/36 hour days - but only play infrequently so the game is a bit slower.

I do feel a lot of people sitting on their hand a little bit.

Can you clarify who's sitting on there hands and why?

[FancyPants]

@Bulbazoor, can you provide games where you were town and incorrect on day 1.
Otherwise as Elemk pointed out you're just pre-preparing excuses for being ineffective on day 1.

Most games I got lynched day one as town.

Being lynched day one and being wrong day 1 are different things you say in this post:

I am the worst at reading anything that occurs in the RVS as I can never get a good read on anything going on. Everyone is seeming sus at this point to me lol.

To me this sounds like you're already giving yourself an excuse not to scum hunt.

[FancyPants]

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

i am used to 24/36 hour days - but only play infrequently so the game is a bit slower.

I do feel a lot of people sitting on their hand a little bit.

Can you clarify who's sitting on there hands and why?

its more im used to shorter days - previous game it would already been night. im realizing this is a slower game

Ok fair.

Can you please share your opinions on anyone?

[FancyPants]

Also did Bulbasaur OMGUS Rad.

I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really.

If Bulba OMGUS'ed Rad what does that mean to you?


Why do you like Bulba and Elmk to "push" today.

[FancyPants]

Bulba - who's sus and why?

[FancyPants]

Bulba talk to me.

Here's my thought - by saying you don't know how to read RVS discussion it makes me thing you're trying to excuse yourself from any negative reads which is scummy.

[FancyPants]

@Bulba I'm sorry if I annoyed you it wasn't my intent.

Can you please clarify this sentence:

Spartan might have just omgused me for saying they were sus. And they said I appeased people when at some point I had to make a contribution regarding my vibes anyway. I don't like them so far.

Namely:
Do you think that is Spartan was OMGusing you it is summy behavior and why.
Can you explain your "vibes" and why you don't like them.

[FancyPants]

Also did Bulbasaur OMGUS Rad.

I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really.

If Bulba OMGUS'ed Rad what does that mean to you?


Why do you like Bulba and Elmk to "push" today.

there really isn't much else to go with - without a flip. and those are the only two im sus about - but there is nothing concrete at the moment

Stop.

You're being dishonest,

You said "I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really." all I'm asking for is

WHY

, what's your reasoning for making that comment.

[FancyPants]

@Rad.
I'm genuinely sorry if I'm making the game less fun for you, solving the game is what I get out of it - and I feel bad if you feel me try-harding is a buzz kill.

I actually think you're probably town. Voting 5 times and expressing a "I don't give a F#%& attitude." strikes me as tonally town but I wanted to interact with you to try and sort you correctly. I like your last post; logical, genuine and most importantly not at all stressed.

To explain some behaviour: AlwaysNever self voting felt slightly too brazen and meme(y) for newb-scum, I'm not writing him off as comftown, but in my opinion his response was town. Who do you reckon is scum btw?

[FancyPants]

@Rad.
I'm genuinely sorry if I'm making the game less fun for you, solving the game is what I get out of it - and I feel bad if you feel me try-harding is a buzz kill.

I actually think you're probably town. Voting 5 times and expressing a "I don't give a F#%& attitude." strikes me as tonally town but I wanted to interact with you to try and sort you correctly. I like your last post; logical, genuine and most importantly not at all stressed.

To explain some behaviour: AlwaysNever self voting felt slightly too brazen and meme(y) for newb-scum, I'm not writing him off as comftown, but in my opinion his response was town. Who do you reckon is scum btw?

No worries man. I don't mean to stiffle your play either. You do you. But I think you need to realize that there's probably not as much to be gained from some of this RVS stuff as you're pushing. Regardless, again, you've pressured out some content and now we're out of RVS because of it. That's good stuff and townie as fuck.

I have no scum reads right now. Like Bulba (I think?) also noted, I tend to get some higher town reads easier and then I can focus in on my nulls.

I get that process of elimination is an important strategy for me as well.

To that end got any town reads?

Here is my full disclosure:

Elemk

- I just agree with them - does that make them town? Not necessarily but I know I'm town and seeing a similar thought process to what I'm feeling is a good sign.

Cat.Jpeg

- POE Scum

GoldfishFromTheMoon

- Appeasement, lurkerish - scum.

Juice

- Waiting for responses

AlwaysNever

- Tonal Town, and Seeming desire to game solve

Rad

- I may not agree with everything you've said but the IDGAF attitude is tonal town to me.

Spartan117

(SE) - A newbie I would say tonal town (IDGAF attitude) but as an SE I'm wary

Bulbazoor

(SE) - So many excuses. Appeasement for why they can't successfully scum hunt, the only thing going for them is that they are laying it on a little "too" thick. My head says scum, my gut says town.

[FancyPants]

You're being dishonest,

dishonest? LOL - I don't think you know what that word means.

just go back and quote everything i've said - and your questions will be answered. What are the odds one of Rad or Buba is your partner though - cause you seem sort of triggered for no reason.

Hey Juice, stand by.

[FancyPants]

Why juice is dishonest:

Also did Bulbasaur OMGUS Rad.

I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really.

I ask (note the bolded part):

Why do you like Bulba and Elmk to "push" today

.

You say (bolded):

Also did Bulbasaur OMGUS Rad.

I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really.

If Bulba OMGUS'ed Rad what does that mean to you?


Why do you like Bulba and Elmk to "push" today.

there really isn't much else to go with - without a flip. and those are the only two im sus about - but there is nothing concrete at the moment

You very cleary brought up Bulba and Elmk as suspects but when pressured you backed away and offered no justifiation - that's what makes me think you're being dishonest.

[FancyPants]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Juice
Just switching from scum to scum but Juice looking worse atm.

[FancyPants]

Hey Juice

I'm stupid.

Please let me know if I'm right in my understanding:

Elemk is scum because in the below post:

Wait crap VOTE: Unvote he is at E-1 if I vote him

You feel this is posturing and performative rather than genuine. Elemk is "pretending" to be a good townie, rather than actually a good townie.

Can you clarify why Bulba was sus for you?

2) you didn't quote everything I said - you only quoted what helped build your narrative. At this point it feels like you are outing yourself - which makes me think either Rad or Bulba are your partner and this game is already over.

I'm also aware I didn't quote your whole posts I was just quoting the bits that were relevant to my argument.

If you think I'm scum Juice - you should vote me.

[FancyPants]

Bulba who's your biggest scum read atm.

[FancyPants]

Hey Bulba
I didn't like your opening, 32 and 35 felt like pre-excuses to incorrectly scum hunt. 36 was supposed to be a pressure post but the "winky emoje" and calling him "buddy" made it feel toothless and appeasing, 67 where you warn us you get lynched day 1 as town also felt like you were qualifying for scummy behavior and 68 where you mention you are rusty felt the same.

That said it was mostly RVS and I'd like to chat.

Why is Rad town to you? and why do you find Spartan suspicious?

[FancyPants]

Hey Bulba
I didn't like your opening, 32 and 35 felt like pre-excuses to incorrectly scum hunt. 36 was supposed to be a pressure post but the "winky emoje" and calling him "buddy" made it feel toothless and appeasing, 67 where you warn us you get lynched day 1 as town also felt like you were qualifying for scummy behavior and 68 where you mention you are rusty felt the same.

That said it was mostly RVS and I'd like to chat.

Why is Rad town to you? and why do you find Spartan suspicious?

What felt toothless about my post. If anything I was being a bit passive aggressive

"It's time to feel some pressure buddy ? " in my opinion is not a genuine pressure post - hence toothless.

Can you clarify your town read of Rad and your scum read of Spartan?

[FancyPants]

Ninja'd

Gut feelings or "vibes" are totally valid, but if you want to get us townies on board it's important to try and figure out where that feeling comes from, I want to understand your thought process.

As for my reads none are set in stone - as you said it's early - but I'm willing to defend and discuss any read you'd like to talk about.

[FancyPants]

So let me get this straight juice.

Fancy is definitely scum. And he's scum with either elemk or bulba. So the best move is to vote one of his maybe scum partners?

I like this line of questioning as well. This is a valid point he made

Yep agreed.

[FancyPants]

Would self-voting not count as appeasing in your view? I read about how you think that my response was too brazen for newb-scum, so I was just wondering why you think Goldfish's are not?

Selft voting is considered scummy behaviour which is what makes it brazen. You're not appeasing you're deliberately doing something scummy.

Appeasing is kind of the opposite, trying to keep the town happy, as opposed to antagonizing them.

I am upset by your smiley face though.

[FancyPants]

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=13470752#p13470752]
I would see this more as illusive rather than dishonest, Its NAI to keep your cards close to your chest especially early on imo, I think it does look sus to appear to be on a Elmk or Bulba train without actually being on one, its like having recognition for sussing them without actually doing the work to gain that credit, either way it's still early on and we are all still feeling each other out, like the pressure from you even if I don't agree with it all, I dont need to, the effort is good.[/quote]

I'm OK with throwing out reads without explanation.

What I'm not OK with is throwing out reads -> being queried on them -> and not having an explanation for those reads.

That strikes me as manufactured.

[FancyPants]

Juice just to be clear you think Elemk is scum because of the below string of posts correct?

You feel they are manufactured?

Wait crap VOTE: Unvote he is at E-1 if I vote him

Oh my sorry for the terrible formatting above! Just to be clear:
UNVOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

Hi Elmk! I think that would have put him at E-3 because me and spartan weren't on him anymore. Double E-1 page 1 would have been fun though

I need to read gooder before I post next time. I read through everything and thought that would be a fun RVS but then I panicked and thought I was E-1'ing and then I double checked and realised that people had changed their votes. God dammit, off to a great start!

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the original thing I said before

[FancyPants]

I am upset by your smiley face though.

Okay you must just hate emojis. I do too, especially the ones on this site, however I don't think they are AI.

Niceness is a scum tell, true story. Doubly true in newbies.

but anyway, I would like to ask you now that Cat has posted more, what reads do you have on them? do you still consider cat as POE scum now that you voted for Juice instead?

Cat hasn't said anything to change my mind about her, town reads are very easy for scum to do, and she hasn't taken a stance on who is scum

That said I'm less certain about Juice, I've been feeling that way for a while but I didn't want to unvote and relieve pressure quite yet.
UNVOTE:

VOTE: Goldfish
Is better methinks.

Scum probably in {Cat/Spartan/Goldfish}

[FancyPants]

Looking for pairs is unhelpful but a town tell IMO.

[FancyPants]

Need more from Elemk, he pocketed me by saying things I agree with but again scum can come to the "right" conclusions very easily.

[FancyPants]

FP - you are yet to answer why you selectively quoted me to fit your narrative.

I was just trying to make a clean succinct case, if you think by doing so I misrepresented you please don't it out.

[FancyPants]

*Please point it out rather.

[FancyPants]

How long have you been playing fancy? You seem pretty hyper confident in drawing conclusions. I'm not used to this level of confidence from anyone regardless of alignment.

On and off for years but I only have about 10 games on site.

I'm pretty confident about my town game though, haven't lost a town game in a while.

[FancyPants]

How long have you been playing fancy? You seem pretty hyper confident in drawing conclusions. I'm not used to this level of confidence from anyone regardless of alignment.

I'm not totally married to anything, it just makes sense though.

[FancyPants]

Need more from Elemk, he pocketed me by saying things I agree with but again scum can come to the "right" conclusions very easily.

Are you saying he intentionally pocketed you or that you feel pocketed due to agreeing with him?

I also agree his input is lacking and we need more.

Hard to say, but no I'm not accusing him of doing it deliberately.
I do have a tendency to read people who think like me as town, it's hurt me in the past so I'm trying to be more aware of my bias.

[FancyPants]

I've explained very clearly here what I was getting at:

I'm OK with throwing out reads without explanation.

What I'm not OK with is throwing out reads -> being queried on them -> and not having an explanation for those reads.

That strikes me as manufactured.

I was trying to make a very specific point about why I didn't like your behaviour, not everything you said was relevant to that point, if you think I misrepresented you show me where. Just because I point out something specific you said rather than quoting every word doesn't mean I misrepresented you.

In short I don't think this comment:

FP - you are yet to answer why you selectively quoted me to fit your narrative.

Is accurate.

[FancyPants]

In fact you still haven't clarified your position on Elemk, despite me asking you twice to do so, see this post:

Juice just to be clear you think Elemk is scum because of the below string of posts correct?

You feel they are manufactured?

Wait crap VOTE: Unvote he is at E-1 if I vote him

Oh my sorry for the terrible formatting above! Just to be clear:
UNVOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

Hi Elmk! I think that would have put him at E-3 because me and spartan weren't on him anymore. Double E-1 page 1 would have been fun though

I need to read gooder before I post next time. I read through everything and thought that would be a fun RVS but then I panicked and thought I was E-1'ing and then I double checked and realised that people had changed their votes. God dammit, off to a great start!

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the original thing I said before

[FancyPants]

Appreciate the answer with that said, now that we have developments, whom among all of the players right now do you think are paired in some ways? Or at least trying to not look like they're paired the most?

Why are you pushing for pairs on page 6? Wait for a flip or if YOU see something suspicious that you want to point out, fine do it. Like pushing this sort of thing this early is just going to make town hesitant to interact and give opinions when we should be pushing for open communication, not trying to find connections based on nothing.

Could also be scum here hunting for masons.

The more I think about this the less and less I like it.

I see, I was actually making questions and see what they are thinking of it, but if you think that it's

very

unhelpful to delve deep into this matter, then I will put it into consideration that I don't look for it

Don't let us put you off, scum hunt however you like.

I'm of the opinion that looking for pairs before we have actually seen any alignments is largely pointless (once we have scum flips it gets MUCH more helpful), I'm not the only one to think that but it doesn't mean we're right and you're wrong.

[FancyPants]

Juice can you show how his selective quote misrepresented you? Like explicitly spell it out for everyone showing what he didn't include and why that was deceiving.

i mean i literally went back and did this the first time i called him out for it.

We are on page 6 or 7. Are people just cba when it comes to looking back and reading the game?

I've just gone back and looked, the only thing you could possibly be referring to is this bolded comment:

Also did Bulbasaur OMGUS Rad.

I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really.

If Bulba OMGUS'ed Rad what does that mean to you?


Why do you like Bulba and Elmk to "push" today.

there really isn't much else to go with - without a flip. and those are the only two im sus about - but there is nothing concrete at the moment

You understand that when I ask you to justify why you scum read two people - the bolded comment above explains absolutely nothing.

[FancyPants]

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

i am used to 24/36 hour days - but only play infrequently so the game is a bit slower. I do feel a lot of people sitting on their hand a little bit.

I know I'm not Fancy but mind if you answer my questions?

Which people do you think is not 'sitting on their hand' right now?

What context is needed for that post? I feel like at this point that's just making something out of nothing.

Yeah I agree with this slightly, your post doesn't seem as suspicious to me. We don't really have much info in RVS so it was fair to say that you have trouble gleaning on intent behind the seemingly random votes thrown everywhere.

Also Goldfish is still scum, my vote was serious in case anyone was wondering.

Didn't reply to this earlier since I was waiting for the player accused to question this, and since they have appeared, I will join behind the line of people asking, indeed, why?

anyway it's still too early for any kind of reads on anyone for me. just shy over three pages, I'd love to see Spartan chimes in, and perhaps Cat too at some point

hard to fully know - because I don't know anyone's play style. I do think the person who instantly unvoted a L1 - wanted to be seen as town by their action even if it was during a random voting sequence.

Elemk I believe.

You mean the bolded above^ ?

If not I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I've read the thread multiple times have have a good grasp of what's going on, if the above is what you meant. I've asked you to clarify this 3 times.

Once here:

Hey Juice

I'm stupid.

Please let me know if I'm right in my understanding:

Elemk is scum because in the below post:

Wait crap VOTE: Unvote he is at E-1 if I vote him

You feel this is posturing and performative rather than genuine. Elemk is "pretending" to be a good townie, rather than actually a good townie.

Can you clarify why Bulba was sus for you?

2) you didn't quote everything I said - you only quoted what helped build your narrative. At this point it feels like you are outing yourself - which makes me think either Rad or Bulba are your partner and this game is already over.

I'm also aware I didn't quote your whole posts I was just quoting the bits that were relevant to my argument.

If you think I'm scum Juice - you should vote me.

Then again here:

Juice just to be clear you think Elemk is scum because of the below string of posts correct?

You feel they are manufactured?

Wait crap VOTE: Unvote he is at E-1 if I vote him

Oh my sorry for the terrible formatting above! Just to be clear:
UNVOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

Hi Elmk! I think that would have put him at E-3 because me and spartan weren't on him anymore. Double E-1 page 1 would have been fun though

I need to read gooder before I post next time. I read through everything and thought that would be a fun RVS but then I panicked and thought I was E-1'ing and then I double checked and realised that people had changed their votes. God dammit, off to a great start!

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the original thing I said before

And then again here:

In fact you still haven't clarified your position on Elemk, despite me asking you twice to do so, see this post:

Juice just to be clear you think Elemk is scum because of the below string of posts correct?

You feel they are manufactured?

Wait crap VOTE: Unvote he is at E-1 if I vote him

Oh my sorry for the terrible formatting above! Just to be clear:
UNVOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

Hi Elmk! I think that would have put him at E-3 because me and spartan weren't on him anymore. Double E-1 page 1 would have been fun though

I need to read gooder before I post next time. I read through everything and thought that would be a fun RVS but then I panicked and thought I was E-1'ing and then I double checked and realised that people had changed their votes. God dammit, off to a great start!

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the original thing I said before

At the bottom of the thread page where it says "display posts by user" you can quickly organised the thread and find old posts, all I wanted was a bit of communication.

Anyway I think you're probably town so this back and forth is a big waste of time.

[FancyPants]

I'm pushing people in an effort to solve the game, no need to take this shit personally.

[FancyPants]

I do think Juice might be coming from a similar mindset as me in that they don't like being pushed over the smallest of things. I do think it could be town vs town but I really do need some more content from the quieter slots before making any sort of decisions.

To AlwaysNever, why do you think Spartan has decent content? What lines in particular?

i actually don't mind be pushed - at all.

i just get confused - when i dont change my stance - and person that was sussing me then flips me to a town read.

Ah, I see why they're seemingly invisible... Goldfish only has three posts that's not good.

@Goldfish any considerations on all of the players currently? What are your thoughts on Fancy thinking of your posts as scummy?

On the players now, bulb is townie, spartan is fairly townie, cat.jpeg I need to see more from but possible scum.

Fancy seems to be taking my joke way too seriously, he already seems to have me as lockscum for 1 rvs post and an emoji??

@Goldfish
Can you please explain why Spartan is town?

Also can you elaborate on why you think Cat might be possible scum?

[FancyPants]

I messed up the above post, the Juice part should read:

I do think Juice might be coming from a similar mindset as me in that they don't like being pushed over the smallest of things. I do think it could be town vs town but I really do need some more content from the quieter slots before making any sort of decisions.

To AlwaysNever, why do you think Spartan has decent content? What lines in particular?

i actually don't mind be pushed - at all.

i just get confused - when i dont change my stance - and person that was sussing me then flips me to a town read.

I like the way you responded to pressure, getting annoyed and thinking the person attacking you is a baddie is the kind of response I expect from new townies.

especially when they are still voting me LOL. I call it questionable play

No I'm not: 147

[FancyPants]

@Goldfish
Can you please explain why Spartan is town?

Also can you elaborate on why you think Cat might be possible scum?

Spartan is townie mostly from tone/ a general feeling, it's early on day 1 so I don't have much solid reasoning behind my reads sorry.

Cat is possible scum bc of their attitude/tone as well, only this time it's actually founded in something bc I've played a lot with her before so I'm familiar with the playstyle as town and scum.

That's boring.

I see you haven't voted this game. Let's say we had an hour left of the day and you had to vote someone, who would it be?

[FancyPants]

I messed up the above post, the Juice part should read:

I do think Juice might be coming from a similar mindset as me in that they don't like being pushed over the smallest of things. I do think it could be town vs town but I really do need some more content from the quieter slots before making any sort of decisions.

To AlwaysNever, why do you think Spartan has decent content? What lines in particular?

i actually don't mind be pushed - at all.

i just get confused - when i dont change my stance - and person that was sussing me then flips me to a town read.

I like the way you responded to pressure, getting annoyed and thinking the person attacking you is a baddie is the kind of response I expect from new townies.

especially when they are still voting me LOL. I call it questionable play

No I'm not: 147

thats not actually what you did at all - full circle, now you are being dishonest. But i think this is your ego

@Juice, can you please explain your interpretation of my behaviour and where I have been dishonest? Please don't tell me to just read the thread, I've read it and I can't see the point you're getting at.

Despite my initial thoughts on Bulba, I feel like some of his posts afterwards make a lot of sense to me. I don't love the posts referring to meta stuff like having awkward reads/getting lynched early/not playing for a while (page 3), mostly because I think meta stuff like this doesn't really mean anything in the context of a specific game. However, I do like some of his later posts and his responses as the thread progresses. I am going to UNVOTE: Bulba for now.

Fancy is town in my eyes still. As I said in my previous post, I really like the questions he is asking and confidence he is showing. Hopefully this is him being an experienced player being town and not taking advantage of a slower thread/noob game!

Rad is similar to fancy. He seems to be prodding and pushing based on what people are saying and forming reads based off this.

128 is interesting to me. I like his previous post 126 because I agree with the logic he expresses. I don't like 128 because he alludes to some sort of "master plan" without actually expressing anything, the exact thing he then accuses bulba of doing? He states he is being "chaotic", which I see in his earlier posts, but they are RVS posts and isnt't that the whole point of the RVS stage? However, I again like the logic of the last sentence. Slight scum lean for me

Not sure on my read of juice. His push on fancy reads town to me and I do think it is a town v town interaction. It is still valuable to the progression of the game and even though I don't agree with his vote, I agree with the sentiment. What I don't like is 166. This seems off to me, though is consistent with the rest of their attitude. Also to respond to your vote/question early on in the thread, I was genuinely panicked that I would mess something up. I have never really played a game like this before and we had just had someone on E-1 so I didn't want to screw the game up so quickly. I don't really think there is much more I can say about this, but feel free to ask.

I'm glad that Cat is still with us, however, I don't think her posts actually add anything to the game. I know that activity is not AI, but would ideally like some more thoughts instead of a few cherry picked posts throughout. Having just gone through the thread, I know it's really difficult to catch up and add things, but her posts leave me unsatisfied. Same goes for Goldfish!

I have some thoughts on AlwaysNever as well, but I have class now, so I will try to post these later today. I will also put my vote out then as well.

Elemk doesn't use Spartan's name exactly, but in the bolded paragraph he links two of his posts, making it clear by implication that paragraph is about him.

[FancyPants]

You accused me of being dishonest. I asked you to quote me. You only selectively quoted me.

I then went back and showed you what I actually said.

You then suddenly decided that you town read me. I wasn't annoyed or personally attacked - I was just asking for receipts that I was never given.

I'm more interest to know what you think about Elmk though - he seems to be budding up to you.

I feel like you think your posting style is clearer than it is. I have a totally different interpretation of our interaction.

Elemk's more recent posts makes sense and I largely agree with what he's been saying, I'd say he's probably town. I'm doubt I'm voting him today. Again there might be an issue where because he's thinking is in line with mine that I'm biased and missing the scumminess, but I don't see it.

Its also more confusing that you seem to be defending them - can't they speak for themselves. And how do you know its implied for certain?

Because he quotes him. Did you know that the blue hyperlinks that look like numbers like so: 1 are clickable?

[FancyPants]

Don't you think it is strange that you thought I was dishonest and voted me - but then changed your mind and flip to town read me.

Here is how I see our interaction:
It started with:

Also did Bulbasaur OMGUS Rad.

I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really.

If Bulba OMGUS'ed Rad what does that mean to you?


Why do you like Bulba and Elmk to "push" today.

Your next post in sequential order addressing this is:

Also did Bulbasaur OMGUS Rad.

I'd push for either Bulba or Elmk today really.

If Bulba OMGUS'ed Rad what does that mean to you?


Why do you like Bulba and Elmk to "push" today.

there really isn't much else to go with - without a flip. and those are the only two im sus about - but there is nothing concrete at the moment

Now this is the important part:

TO ME it looked like you sussed Bulba and Elmk I pushed you on it, and then you essentially brushed the comment under the rug

with this comment: "there really isn't much else to go with - without a flip. and those are the only two im sus about - but there is nothing concrete at the moment".

This is why I accused you of being dishonest - to me it looked like you sussed out of nowhere, and when pressed could not justify this.


Now you actually were using this earlier post of yours:

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

i am used to 24/36 hour days - but only play infrequently so the game is a bit slower. I do feel a lot of people sitting on their hand a little bit.

I know I'm not Fancy but mind if you answer my questions?

Which people do you think is not 'sitting on their hand' right now?

What context is needed for that post? I feel like at this point that's just making something out of nothing.

Yeah I agree with this slightly, your post doesn't seem as suspicious to me. We don't really have much info in RVS so it was fair to say that you have trouble gleaning on intent behind the seemingly random votes thrown everywhere.

Also Goldfish is still scum, my vote was serious in case anyone was wondering.

Didn't reply to this earlier since I was waiting for the player accused to question this, and since they have appeared, I will join behind the line of people asking, indeed, why?

anyway it's still too early for any kind of reads on anyone for me. just shy over three pages, I'd love to see Spartan chimes in, and perhaps Cat too at some point

hard to fully know - because I don't know anyone's play style. I do think the person who instantly unvoted a L1 - wanted to be seen as town by their action even if it was during a random voting sequence.

To justify your Elemk sus. This is something I missed as I thought it was just a throwaway comment.

I never actually misquote you once, I just missed an earlier comment that you expected me to keep track of despite it's vagueness. Once I figure this out I ask you 3 times to clarify your Elemk position which you never do.

Anyway the whole this was a misunderstanding because you wouldn't actually clarify anything, I've had to figure out myself what you mean.

I changed my mind about you being scum because I finally figured out what you were talking about, with no help from you.

[FancyPants]

Don't you think it is strange that you thought I was dishonest and voted me - but then changed your mind and flip to town read me.
And that is the only thing you've actually done all game - and yet Elmk think you are most town because of it.

The logic chain is broken. You claim his recent post makes sense and you agree with what he is saying. But they have only really been a yes man or a cheerleader for you. OF course you are going to agree with your #1 cheerleader. Its laughable at this point.

If you are town - id suggest you actually refresh and look back at what Elemk is saying. Cause when he flips scum - you will be next on the firing line

You seem to think that you should agree with no-one.

A well unified town is the scariest thing for scum to face. I'm perfectly OK with agreeing with Elem.

[FancyPants]

Anyway we should be putting pressure on
Spartan
Cat
Goldfish

That's where the scum are hiding.

[FancyPants]

Don't you think it is strange that you thought I was dishonest and voted me - but then changed your mind and flip to town read me.
And that is the only thing you've actually done all game - and yet Elmk think you are most town because of it.

The logic chain is broken. You claim his recent post makes sense and you agree with what he is saying. But they have only really been a yes man or a cheerleader for you. OF course you are going to agree with your #1 cheerleader. Its laughable at this point.

If you are town - id suggest you actually refresh and look back at what Elemk is saying. Cause when he flips scum - you will be next on the firing line

You seem to think that you should agree with no-one.

A well unified town is the scariest thing for scum to face. I'm perfectly OK with agreeing with Elem.

This answer makes no sense - but I give up with you at this point. You're approach to this game has no benefit for town - but I suppose this is a n00b game so you will get better with practise

OK then.

Tell you what, if we get to the end of the game and your sus list of {Elemk, Bulba, Fancy} has more scum in it than mine of {Goldfish, Spartan, Cat} I'll write you a 500 word apology.

[FancyPants]

I won't give him a pass I promise.

That said I don't agree with your case on him.

It basically seems to boil down to 'no real content' which is somewhat true but the same can be said of almost everyone in this game. At least he's given his thoughts, made a decent point about Spartan and actually placed a vote.

That puts him ahead of most of the game in terms of content.

I will stop getting involved though I'll let the two of you interact.

[FancyPants]

I think in 181 Elemk his reads and why he has them, he's not evening town reading me that strongly, expressing paranoia that I might be using my experience to take advantage of the game.

Anyway I'll drop it.

At this stage I'm looking for Goldfish to answer my last question.

I'd like Spartan and Cat to weigh in with new thoughts as well.

[FancyPants]

I think in 181 Elemk his reads and why he has them, he's not evening town reading me that strongly, expressing paranoia that I might be using my experience to take advantage of the game.

Anyway I'll drop it.

At this stage I'm looking for Goldfish to answer my last question.

I'd like Spartan and Cat to weigh in with new thoughts as well.

My first sentence is a mess, it should read:
I think in 181 Elemk

explains

his reads and why he has them, he's not

even

town-reading me that strongly, expressing paranoia that I might be using my experience to take advantage of the game.

[FancyPants]

Anyway we should be putting pressure on
Spartan
Cat
Goldfish

That's where the scum are hiding.

Where do you get the idea Spartan is scum? I kinda like his content this game. It's different than how I know him to play as town but he pointed out that he would be playing in a specific manner (chaotic with min content) and the important part is the result is actually focused and relevant content. I think scum can claim meta change to hide behind differences but when the content remains townie I think that points to town.

I disagree with his read on bulba but I could be wrong, and I don't think anything he's been pointing out had been nonsense.

Yeah you might be right, I'm less sure after a quick ISO.

Spartan you promised to name the scum team here:

And, out of the whole list that I put which is everyone except me and Rad, I am suspicious of spartan the most.

That's cool, I mean I've produced min content, chaotic at best but thats what I'm going for this time, just for the record,

I'm still sticking to the plan tho dw I'll have my scum team for you guys before the days out (in game day ofc aha)

Also side note it feels to me bulba that you are too scared to comit to any reads, like as if you say someone's scum that you can't change your mind with more information or even with further reflection and a good old re-read. I get very static vibes from you as far as reads go, when as town we should be more fluid with our reads they should evolve, now that doesn't mean they have to change ofc but that's all part of the process.

I am giddy with anticipation.

[FancyPants]

Just do clarify my position on Spartan

I'm as sure as I can be of my town reads on:
Elemk/Alwaysnever/Rad/Juice/Bulba

That only really leaves the other 3.

They've all done what I expect of scum in newbies - that is not commit on scum reads at all, and throw out some token town reads.

In my opinion scum have trouble manufacturing scum hunting as they know whatever they say is essentially bullshit, even wrong opinions about who the scum are show intent. I've seen very little real scum hunting intent from those 3.

[FancyPants]

Random question Juice, where do you usually play mafia or similar games?

[FancyPants]

@Mod, can we get a fresh VC when you have some time please <3.

[FancyPants]

@Goldfish I asked you a question here:

@Goldfish
Can you please explain why Spartan is town?

Also can you elaborate on why you think Cat might be possible scum?

Spartan is townie mostly from tone/ a general feeling, it's early on day 1 so I don't have much solid reasoning behind my reads sorry.

Cat is possible scum bc of their attitude/tone as well, only this time it's actually founded in something bc I've played a lot with her before so I'm familiar with the playstyle as town and scum.

That's boring.

I see you haven't voted this game. Let's say we had an hour left of the day and you had to vote someone, who would it be?

Can you answer please?

[FancyPants]

They've all done what I expect of scum in newbies - that is not commit on scum reads at all, and throw out some token town reads.

In my opinion scum have trouble manufacturing scum hunting as they know whatever they say is essentially bullshit, even wrong opinions about who the scum are show intent. I've seen very little real scum hunting intent from those 3.

I'd like to point you to some of my previous games on this site, and point out that I'm not entierly new to the game of mafia and I'm actually not bad at bullshitting scumreads, it's a lot easier to make content out of nothing as scum than it is to actually work out whether what people are saying is really suspicious or if it's their playstyle or random and NAI.

If I was scum I'd be posting a LOT more reads because I know that not voting/scumreading people early on gets me scumread.

A quick meta scan doesn't track with this.
I found two scum games:
- viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89374 - Open 850: Democrabilities (Postgame)
- viewtopic.php?f=11&t=89376 - Mewbie 2094 -- GAME OVER

In the first one your first read that isn't town or null is like 400 posts in.
In the second one you replace out after about 200 posts but post no scum reads.

Now it looks like you have experience offsite so this isn't a comprehensive analysis of your meta, but it does contradict what you said - you have not shown a strong inclination to scumread people more as scum.

If I was scum I'd be posting a LOT more reads because I know that not voting/scumreading people early on gets me scumread.

Also this statement format: "If I really was bad, I wouldn't do x, y, z." I find to be a very common lie format.

[FancyPants]

@Goldfish I asked you a question here:

@Goldfish
Can you please explain why Spartan is town?

Also can you elaborate on why you think Cat might be possible scum?

Spartan is townie mostly from tone/ a general feeling, it's early on day 1 so I don't have much solid reasoning behind my reads sorry.

Cat is possible scum bc of their attitude/tone as well, only this time it's actually founded in something bc I've played a lot with her before so I'm familiar with the playstyle as town and scum.

That's boring.

I see you haven't voted this game. Let's say we had an hour left of the day and you had to vote someone, who would it be?

Can you answer please?

Sorry I didn't answer, probably cat if I had to,.

Is this meta based? You said you know her well.

[FancyPants]

You mentioned in one of the games I read that you don't actually have that strong of an ability to read Cat - so I will take your answer with a pinch of salt, but in your opinion how do you expect town Cat to behave as opposed to scum Cat?

[FancyPants]

Also if you don't mind can you ISO Spartan and tell me what you think?

[FancyPants]

Vote Count 1.03

————

Bulbazoor (1)

: , Spartan117

Spartan117 (1)

: Elemk

GoldfishFromTheMoon (1)

: FancyPants

Elemk (1)

: Juice

Not Voting (5): GoldfishFromTheMoon, Rad, Bulbazoor, AlwaysNever, Cat.Jpeg

With 9 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is August 14 at 9:00 PM GMT +8

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-08-14 21:00:00)

Thanks mod!

All these parked votes...

[FancyPants]

Don't include me in parking .

Definitely not, it's the 5 people voting no-one - straight negligence is what it is.

[FancyPants]

I do think Juice might be coming from a similar mindset as me in that they don't like being pushed over the smallest of things. I do think it could be town vs town but I really do need some more content from the quieter slots before making any sort of decisions.

To AlwaysNever, why do you think Spartan has decent content? What lines in particular?

In post 128 he gives a line of reasoning regarding specifically your playstyle so far that I agree with and imo can only be done when he's town, as scum!spartan could absolutely use this and instead pressure you imo.

Hmmm.

I actually find Spartan's post here:

And, out of the whole list that I put which is everyone except me and Rad, I am suspicious of spartan the most.

That's cool, I mean I've produced min content, chaotic at best but thats what I'm going for this time, just for the record, I'm still sticking to the plan tho dw I'll have my scum team for you guys before the days out (in game day ofc aha)

Also side note it feels to me bulba that you are too scared to comit to any reads, like as if you say someone's scum that you can't change your mind with more information or even with further reflection and a good old re-read. I get very static vibes from you as far as reads go, when as town we should be more fluid with our reads they should evolve, now that doesn't mean they have to change ofc but that's all part of the process.

Pretty incoherent, can you explain in detail why you like it and why you think it's town? It may be going over my head. I don't follow your reasoning in general.

[FancyPants]

-snip-

I have some thoughts on AlwaysNever as well, but I have class now, so I will try to post these later today. I will also put my vote out then as well.

If Elemk is reading this, I am curious about what you think of me, seems like you didn't explain further in your post after about this

This is true.

[FancyPants]

@Alwaysnever
Why is Juice/Elemk most likely T/S? As opposed to T/T ?

[FancyPants]

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=13471816#p13471816]
I will not be explaining this as if I'm the poster, but the part that I think makes him look good in my eyes is that with how Bulba is being pressured back then, he was quick to not immediately pile on him and instead encourage him in a town-ish POV. This is, however, my thoughts before I read the post he had later on towards Bulba, so just as Spartan is saying in this post, I am currently reflecting on his position right now as the same part of my amendment of the gutreads and my vote.[/quote]
OK fine but how do you know "not piling on him" is town, how do you know bulba isn't scum?

Spartan's an SE and therefore has at least a partial obligation to help newbies out, why do you think this is town aligned and not just nai advice?

[FancyPants]

I messed up the last post - reposted here:

I do think Juice might be coming from a similar mindset as me in that they don't like being pushed over the smallest of things. I do think it could be town vs town but I really do need some more content from the quieter slots before making any sort of decisions.

To AlwaysNever, why do you think Spartan has decent content? What lines in particular?

In post 128 he gives a line of reasoning regarding specifically your playstyle so far that I agree with and imo can only be done when he's town, as scum!spartan could absolutely use this and instead pressure you imo.

Hmmm.

I actually find Spartan's post here:

And, out of the whole list that I put which is everyone except me and Rad, I am suspicious of spartan the most.

That's cool, I mean I've produced min content, chaotic at best but thats what I'm going for this time, just for the record, I'm still sticking to the plan tho dw I'll have my scum team for you guys before the days out (in game day ofc aha)

Also side note it feels to me bulba that you are too scared to comit to any reads, like as if you say someone's scum that you can't change your mind with more information or even with further reflection and a good old re-read. I get very static vibes from you as far as reads go, when as town we should be more fluid with our reads they should evolve, now that doesn't mean they have to change ofc but that's all part of the process.

Pretty incoherent, can you explain in detail why you like it and why you think it's town? It may be going over my head. I don't follow your reasoning in general.

I will not be explaining this as if I'm the poster, but the part that I think makes him look good in my eyes is that with how Bulba is being pressured back then, he was quick to not immediately pile on him and instead encourage him in a town-ish POV. This is, however, my thoughts before I read the post he had later on towards Bulba, so just as Spartan is saying in this post, I am currently reflecting on his position right now as the same part of my amendment of the gutreads and my vote.

OK fine but how do you know "not piling on him" is town, how do you know bulba isn't scum?

Spartan's an SE and therefore has at least a partial obligation to help newbies out, why do you think this is town aligned and not just nai advice?

[FancyPants]

I messed up the last post - reposted here:

I do think Juice might be coming from a similar mindset as me in that they don't like being pushed over the smallest of things. I do think it could be town vs town but I really do need some more content from the quieter slots before making any sort of decisions.

To AlwaysNever, why do you think Spartan has decent content? What lines in particular?

In post 128 he gives a line of reasoning regarding specifically your playstyle so far that I agree with and imo can only be done when he's town, as scum!spartan could absolutely use this and instead pressure you imo.

Hmmm.

I actually find Spartan's post here:

And, out of the whole list that I put which is everyone except me and Rad, I am suspicious of spartan the most.

That's cool, I mean I've produced min content, chaotic at best but thats what I'm going for this time, just for the record, I'm still sticking to the plan tho dw I'll have my scum team for you guys before the days out (in game day ofc aha)

Also side note it feels to me bulba that you are too scared to comit to any reads, like as if you say someone's scum that you can't change your mind with more information or even with further reflection and a good old re-read. I get very static vibes from you as far as reads go, when as town we should be more fluid with our reads they should evolve, now that doesn't mean they have to change ofc but that's all part of the process.

Pretty incoherent, can you explain in detail why you like it and why you think it's town? It may be going over my head. I don't follow your reasoning in general.

I will not be explaining this as if I'm the poster, but the part that I think makes him look good in my eyes is that with how Bulba is being pressured back then, he was quick to not immediately pile on him and instead encourage him in a town-ish POV. This is, however, my thoughts before I read the post he had later on towards Bulba, so just as Spartan is saying in this post, I am currently reflecting on his position right now as the same part of my amendment of the gutreads and my vote.

OK fine but how do you know "not piling on him" is town, how do you know bulba isn't scum?

Spartan's an SE and therefore has at least a partial obligation to help newbies out, why do you think this is town aligned and not just nai advice?

If you do read on my analysis on most of the player, I did put Bulba on the least town of the bunch not counting inactives at that moment, as you can see here,

so my point of view at the time is that him not adding more pressure towards the already paranoid Bulba can only be done with Town POV, because otherwise he could have formed a Bulba wagon and not even I can disagree with him.

To be honest with you, I did not realize at all that Spartan is SE and considered it when I made the read, so thank you for bringing that up. I do agree that he might have done so under the guise of being an SE instead of doing it as a town-like player. This will be put into consideration for my amended gutread.

Addressing the bolded:
Ok yes, Spartan defending Bulba in that situation is town but ONLY if we know bulba is town, how do you know bulba is town there? In other words why give Spartan town points for helping out bulba without knowing bulba's alignment.

[FancyPants]

Also again I need to know from you why the Elemk <> Juice interaction is town v scum to you, as opposed to town v town.

[FancyPants]

@AlwaysNever, OK I accept that for now.
Just to clarify my thoughts, I'm slightly concerned that your reasoning was coming from the knowledge that Spartan and Bulba are town.

In other words -> scum-AlwaysNever

knows

both Spartan and Bulba are town, and can therefore

know

that Spartan defending bulba (as opposed to jumping on him) is a town act. Whereas Town-AlwaysNever doesn't know either of their alignments, and can't draw a conclusion either way.

I accept your explanation for now. I'm keen to see where you vote and why.


As a general note I'm sorry for spamming the thread in general. I'm bored and hating work at the moment.

[FancyPants]

Are you caught up Cat, who's scum in your opinion?

[FancyPants]

Okay not to speak for AlwaysNever but to me I was thinking that from a town!Spartan perspective giving Bulba advise when their alignment is not know isn't really pro town or anti. However from a scum!Spartan perspective jumping on the Bulba wagon will always be beneficial. (unless they are scum partners). Honestly though Spartans original post, while not putting more pressure on Bulba, did not take attempt to stop pressure on Bulba and it could have been buddying if Bulba was not elimmed, also Spartan was and still is voting Bulba. Also Spartan could have just said that to appease post 124.

This is a pretty good explanation thanks.

That said my main issue with AlwaysNever was that it felt like he was taking both of their alignments for granted - and only scum know alignments for sure. Coupled with the fact that on reread AlwaysNever looked worse than I remember and I'm still not sure about him.

[FancyPants]

Are you caught up Cat, who's scum in your opinion?

now, yes. I am going to be honest I have not been thinking about who is scum, is it even worth it on the first day? (im joking)

I actually think day 1 is one of the best days to catch scum I've played 9 town games on this site, and 5 of them have had scum flips day 1.

[FancyPants]

. It will tell you goldfish saying I am sus isn’t worth much

This is probably true. Sorry.

I'd still like to hear your meta analysis of Cat regardless of how useless you may think it is - i.e. why you think she might be playing scum this game.

[FancyPants]

@AlwaysNever, Why couldn't Juice be Town targeting Elemk town, I didn't understand what you meant? You mentioned you thought scum-juice could be tunneling Elemk but NOT why if Juice was town, Elemk wasn't.
Also if your opinions change it doesn't really matter to me you still have to justify why you

used

to have a certain opinion.

@Bulba just to clarify I'm not as bothered with people explaining their town reads: scum can correctly town read people for good reasons so it's less effective. I'm generally looking for fake scum hunting, in-congruent thought process related to scum reads, and bullshit in general.

I don't have a particularly strong town read on you but I like the way you responded to early pressure, some genuine frustration and thinking your attackers are baddies reads as a genuine town reaction to me. For what it's worth I like your post 283 but it's not that alignment indicative, some good solid points and questions and I agree with your reads for the most part - you might be scum but if you are you're pretty good.

I'll explain individual town reads if you really want me to, but I don't see much value in that discussion.

I still really don't like Goldfish if I was a dayvig I'd elim her right now, no questions asked.

I'd like @Spartan to weigh in on Goldfish.
I'd also like Cat and Goldfish to properly weigh in on each other.

[FancyPants]

I am not getting town vibes from anyone but I lowkey like Rad so far
Spartan not so much

Whooooosssshhhhh

(Appeasement followed by a statement without any actual reasoning)

Zzoooooommm

VOTE: Bulbazoor

At this point it is feeling like a damned if I do, damned if I don't. Like I said, these are vibes and not fully fleshed out reads.

I think it is stupid that I am getting pushed for a comment that is clearly being misconstrued

.

I meant I can never get a feel on anyone's alignment just based off of RVS and I usually don't know how to move the conversation forward so I just awkwardly wait for more content to roll in.

Bulba - who's sus and why?

I like Rad so far. I usually look for town reads before I see anyone as sus. And he seems closest to what I would consider to having a town tone.

I don't know how to read Goldfish and her reaction to being voted. I will have to see what else she says.

I can see you trying to scumhunt but frankly I am annoyed at how you made me seem out to be like I didn't intend on scumhunting. I have also never played with you so I don't know what to make of you other than you have an aggressive style.

Spartan might have just omgused me for saying they were sus. And they said I appeased people when at some point I had to make a contribution regarding my vibes anyway. I don't like them so far.

At thus point all I can say about Spartan is he said me giving reads was appeasing which it wasn't because I will be outing reads either way in the future. And it came at a time where there was already a BW sort of building on me IIRC.

And all I have right now are gut reads. Nothing based on substance. It is strange to me how someone can already have so many reads when it is so early on and we have like seven days left.

And how am I supposed to explain something like a gut feeling (what I call a vibe)

?

All the bolded parts read as genuine frustration to me, it was tonal more than content driven. Fakable but it will do for now. I didn't particularly like your opening as you didn't take any strong stances, but I suppose not everyone is enough of an ego-maniac to think they have the game solved after 4 pages.


To elaborate a little on this; something similar happened with Juice - pressure was applied but instead of wilting/lurking or equivocating he got mad and paranoid.

[FancyPants]

didnt get mad/
didnt get paranoid - just asked for receipts.
and still not a he.

Very sorry, I'll try to remember.

[FancyPants]

Also if you don't mind can you ISO Spartan and tell me what you think?

Yes, I'll do that now. Expect to hear back in a few hours-ish.

Edit: I'm sorry i really don't have time to do this properly rn. From what I've seen the iso looks good, when I have time I'll go through and give comments on individual posts.

I think the elmek slot is scum.

Reason why Elmk is scum?

[FancyPants]

I didn't manage to make time for the last part of my gutreads (Bulba and FP), and unsure if I'll get the time to do so for today as well... so I'll just reply to questions targeted to me for now.

@AlwaysNever, Why couldn't Juice be Town targeting Elemk town, I didn't understand what you meant? You mentioned you thought scum-juice could be tunneling Elemk but NOT why if Juice was town, Elemk wasn't.
Also if your opinions change it doesn't really matter to me you still have to justify why you

used

to have a certain opinion.

-snip-

For why if Juice is Town, Elemk wasn't, it would be because I think the way Juice is pressuring Elemk indicate they do not belong to the same side, but I see now that the slot is open, my opinions on it might change yet again.

And I

did

justify my opinion to the best of my abilities, at least for the Spartan case. If you feel like that is unsatisfactory or you can't understand it... I don't really know what else I can say?

OK this makes no sense. Juice could have just been wrong and Elemk could be town. I don't see how a townie can possibly know that two people are on opposite sides - that one of them

must

be scum out of the pair.
The fact that Elemk is getting replaced is totally irrelevant to this.

For what it's worth I'm high suspicious of you know, I may have missed you in my initial town sweep.

I also think you've generally been appeasing in your responses, changing your mind about pairs when pressed. It feels like you're trying to keep Rad and I happy with your responses.

FOS: AlwaysNever

I'd vote you if I wasn't already voting scum Goldfish.

I'm separating my posts to address different people.

[FancyPants]

Spartan made a big post and asks a number of questions about me, I'll try to isolate them below:

I actually think you're probably town. Voting 5 times and expressing a "I don't give a F#%& attitude." strikes me as tonally town but I wanted to interact with you to try and sort you correctly.

@FP tell me, why does this behaviour give you a town read on Rad but not me? interesting how both you and bulba came to this same conclusion

As for my reads none are set in stone - as you said it's early - but I'm willing to defend and discuss any read you'd like to talk about.

Very townie mindset to have, although not impossible to emulate.

Looking for pairs is unhelpful but a town tell IMO.

Why is looking for pairs so early on useful for town to do in your opinion? would it not look more like asking questions that are in no way able to be effectively answered to seem active and driving content?

I'm pretty confident about my town game though, haven't lost a town game in a while.

What's your effectiveness as scum?

I'm of the opinion that looking for pairs before we have actually seen any alignments is largely pointless

If you think its pointless why does it give you a town tell when AN asked about it?

I like ANs breakdown of their reads in their #168 good detail feel very genuine.

It basically seems to boil down to 'no real content' which is somewhat true but the same can be said of almost everyone in this game. At least he's given his thoughts, made a decent point about Spartan and actually placed a vote.

How can it be said that there is no real content from almost everyone in the game, Rad, Juice, AlwaysNever and Bulba have all produced lots of content by this point to put Elemk in the same bracket as them is just lazy.

You state he has made a decent point about me, please elaborate on that what part of the following is an actual point on me?

128 is interesting to me. I like his previous post 126 because I agree with the logic he expresses. I don't like 128 because he alludes to some sort of "master plan" without actually expressing anything, the exact thing he then accuses bulba of doing? He states he is being "chaotic", which I see in his earlier posts, but they are RVS posts and isnt't that the whole point of the RVS stage? However, I again like the logic of the last sentence. Slight scum lean for me

He states he likes my post 126, and agrees with my logic, it seems the whole basis of his scum read on me is based on a joke I made relating to my previous game with Rad that had not been fully explained, which is nothing to do with what I was talking to Bulba about so his point is factually incorrect. he then ends his point saying

slight scum lean for me

and this was his whole basis for his vote in a following post with no further analysis or reasoning and you support it FP, it feels to me like you never bothered to review what his read was based on before you supported it.

FP I am not sure if you are supporting Elemk because he is agreeing with you or you are scum and want to encourage him to stay on your side? Surely it would be too obvious for you two to be the scum team right?

Individual questions are:

@FP tell me, why does this behaviour give you a town read on Rad but not me? interesting how both you and bulba came to this same conclusion

I actually did give you some early town points, but you flaked where-as Rad followed it up with posts I liked.

Why is looking for pairs so early on useful for town to do in your opinion? would it not look more like asking questions that are in no way able to be effectively answered to seem active and driving content?

I don't think looking for pairs is useful and said as much - that said I think looking for pairs is a common town way of thinking, so I do think people trying to figure out pairs is a slightly town mindset. More experienced players generally know this doesn't work before flips.

What's your effectiveness as scum?

Bad, I usually replace out or get lynched. I have no interest in playing scum, I mostly play the game to "play detective" the deception side of the game doesn't interest me. I will try harder next time I get scum, but I struggle to feign interest usually. In contrast I've never been lynched as town.

If you think its pointless why does it give you a town tell when AN asked about it?

I explain this above.

You state he has made a decent point about me, please elaborate on that what part of the following is an actual point on me?

He didn't like the post where you said you'd hero solve the game day 1 etc, I didn't like it either at the time. You have since explained it was essentially an inside joke with Rad.

FP I am not sure if you are supporting Elemk because he is agreeing with you or you are scum and want to encourage him to stay on your side? Surely it would be too obvious for you two to be the scum team right?

I'm supporting Elemk because the case on them is

total garbage

.
Now listen. Contrary to what I've said I'm not a perfect scum hunting God (just near-perfect). I could be totally wrong about Elemk, but I don't see a case, it boils down to two things:
- His unvoting in the RVS after worrying about an early lynch (to me this is NAI at worst).
- His read post where he gave some game information without giving too many real suss'es (the only sus he gave was you) - I'm referring to this post: 180 . I didn't think there was anything wrong with that post and the original sus was based on a misunderstanding where people thought he hadn't mentioned your name (he didn't) but he quotes you with posts making it explicit who he's talking about.

That's it. I'd still like anyone to elaborate, the fact that Goldfish jumped on this wagon is one of the reasons she's scum.

[FancyPants]

I kinda like Cat's latest post, but I can't entirely trust her assessment of Goldfish as they could also both be scum. They also seem to both just have NAI reads on each other so their meta knowledge hasn't been useful yet.

[FancyPants]

I still really don't like Goldfish if I was a dayvig I'd elim her right now, no questions asked.

I'd like @Spartan to weigh in on Goldfish.
I'd also like Cat and Goldfish to properly weigh in on each other.

My Sus-ometer is going off I think I've found one of them VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon Rad do you want to join me?

Absolutely. Scum cannot be allowed to live.

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

I swear I get RVS'ed in every game I join, I must have a particularly suspicious username or something. That or I'm always scum

This is NAI for her.

They've all done what I expect of scum in newbies - that is not commit on scum reads at all, and throw out some token town reads.

In my opinion scum have trouble manufacturing scum hunting as they know whatever they say is essentially bullshit, even wrong opinions about who the scum are show intent. I've seen very little real scum hunting intent from those 3.

I'd like to point you to some of my previous games on this site, and point out that I'm not entierly new to the game of mafia and I'm actually not bad at bullshitting scumreads, it's a lot easier to make content out of nothing as scum than it is to actually work out whether what people are saying is really suspicious or if it's their playstyle or random and NAI.

If I was scum I'd be posting a LOT more reads because I know that not voting/scumreading people early on gets me scumread.

She has said stuff like 'If I was scum I would be more agressive/xyz' before and she's been town IIRC but as scum I think she would be likely to say this anyway, especially with me playing to try and seem town. I can tell you she does believe that its not hard to BS reads as scum.

Those were really the only posts from her ISO that interested me. The nothing scumread on me I didn't like but also sadly NAI. Her level of activity is also NAI. Basically its a bunch of NAI however normally by this point she's said at least something that would make me think she was town so right now she's probably on the scummier side, also POE.
@FancyPants I don't really get why you 'really don't like Goldfish' seems rather extreme based off very little, especially the 'no questions asked' bit, thats not what town wants in mafia. I don't see anything that could make you so sure besides how you think inactive or emojis is scummy, which I dont agree with.

The bolded sentence is what I want to talk about.

Cat I specifically asked you about this because in one of the scum games of her I read she displays this kind of behaviour in: Mewbie 2094 -- GAME OVER (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=89376)

You even pick up on it at one point saying (the following quote is not from this game everyone):

From town to scum (but imagine catboi and GM are tied)
Goldfish, stop referencing what you would do normally as scum, showing your so aware of it and telling people means you actually wouldnt do that as scum unless you were trying to lose.

And Goldfish was scum that game.

So yeah...
IDK if you're misremembering or if Goldfish does this kind of thing in ALL of her games, I'm not quite bored enough to read every one of her town games.

[FancyPants]

So yeah it's Goldfish.
- Based on appeasement.
- Based on my meta.
- Based on her "misremembering" about how she behaves as scum and using it as a defense.
- Based on avoiding this game while under pressure.


Also worst case if I'm wrong, she's not helpful as a townie anyway.

[FancyPants]

Oh I forgot, based on jumping on the obv-town Elemk wagon. (OK this one is a bit of a joke).

[FancyPants]

That's L-1 for Goldfish BTW,

I'm OK with her being lynched, but she should have a chance to claim.

[FancyPants]

Although no intent has been declared yet.

[FancyPants]

Rad can you tell me why you think Elemk is scum?

Otherwise quote the post where you gave this info, I don't remember it.

[FancyPants]

I know this is obvious but I ain't voting Elemk unless one of these two criteria are met:
1. Someone actually posts a case that convinces me.

2. To avoid a no-lim at the end of the day.

I'm not saying you are scum Rad but I want to understand this suspicious of Elemk from quite a few people. Please help.

[FancyPants]

Although no intent has been declared yet.

I have no issue giving intent if the general consensus is happy they are scum, from reading through their ISO it is pretty lackluster, lots of lurking and lack of real townie desire to solve the puzzle seems very relaxed.

My main concern with everyone seeming happy to jump on their wagon, is who their scum partner is? Maybe they have just given up with them at this point and jumped on the wagon to get town cred I'm not sure. Either way it does make me hesitant, but in order to move this game on I feel like we need to see a flip soon.

So consider this intent to hammer (provided Juices vote is legit) although I do wish to respond back to Rad first before hand. (hopefully that gets things moving again, que escalator music)

Good post.
I think Goldfish should have claimed but the pressure was pilfered at the last second by Rad.

[FancyPants]

I know this is obvious but I ain't voting Elemk unless one of these two criteria are met:
1. Someone actually posts a case that convinces me.

2. To avoid a no-lim at the end of the day.

I'm not saying you are scum Rad but I want to understand this suspicious of Elemk from quite a few people. Please help.

we all know you are never going to vote Elmk - because you town read him for agreeing with you.

I think that's an over simplification of my feelings about Elemk. I mainly want reasons for why that slot is scummy. I just don't see the case.

Also @Rad/Spartan do you mind sharing that last game that you two keep referring to? Where Spartan was elimed day 1, but named the scum team helping Rad wrap them up.

[FancyPants]

Rad can you tell me why you think Elemk is scum?

Otherwise quote the post where you gave this info, I don't remember it.

Elemk kept pushing the idea that me and fancy are town for our scum hunting and generating content, yet didn't do any of that himself. His posts are just thought bombs without any pressure. I'm very reluctant lately to just accept thought bomb posts as townie since they can easily replace interaction to look busy and it's very easy to see why someone is town when you're scum.

Also, his posts feel like they're bloated intentionally though I admit that could be a nai personality thing.

I can accept that to an extent, information instead of analysis is essentially non-scum hunting.

That said you could say the same about Goldfish/Spartan/Cat/AlwaysNever (even Bulba a little) where they post without actual pressure or suspicion.

Out of interest how do you feel about post 188 by Elemk?

[FancyPants]

188
Link broken above posted again here.

[FancyPants]

I really just want anybody other than Juice to let me know why they think Elemk is scum. No disrespect to juice, xe is probably my strongest town read but we don't think the same and I'm looking from a different perspective.

[FancyPants]

I wouldn't mind juice giving a quick summary as to why juice thinks elemk is scum either but I do worry about flooding the thread with more back and forth with a slot I've already sorted.

[FancyPants]

I wouldn't mind juice giving a quick summary as to why juice thinks elemk is scum either but I do worry about flooding the thread with more back and forth with a slot I've already sorted.

SMH

I'm terribly sorry I remember how our relationship works, I need to make your case for you, you don't clarify or try to make my life easy, or in general try to convince me and the rest of the town. My deepest apologies.

OK so. Please call me out if I'm misrepresenting you - it's not intentional, I'm inferring your thoughts as best I can.

So lemme get this straight. I miss out on 5 pages and provide my thoughts on those pages and somehow that makes me scum? I was trying to do my best to catch up on what I had missed and provide some reads on what I felt through the pages I missed. Initially I thought I would have time to write a bit more and provide a new vote (which I stated in my last post) and now you are accusing me of being scum for running out of time. I thought the best approach would basically be to thought dump, but I guess you don't want that? I don't know what my alternative is? WOuld you have just accused me of leaving things/picking and choosing my posts if I had gone with a different approach? I dunno

The reasons I like Rad/Fancy's posts are because they have generated a line of questioning and responses that have pushed people to actually make meaningful discussion and thoughts, and sure maybe that isn't 100% AI, it is at least something to go off. Just based off my own readings and thoughts, there was some posts made that I agreed with.

As for 166, I don't know how to put it in words exactly, but as far as I can tell you are getting upset because someone hasn't read through every single word of your posts and quoted every single one of them. You state that you are putting your vote on FP until they are lynched which doesn't make sense? Obviously you were happy to swap it over to me now, but I get why you were so adamant on FP to the point of vote parking "until you are lynched".

I understand that the whole point of this game is to scum hunt, so I will try to focus on that more.

I wrote the least about them because as I explained in my post, there really isn't that much to comment on? I don't want to fall in the trap of low activity=scum, so I stand by what I said previously

And again by your logic, if I was being coached, they would be doing a pretty shit job considering that one of my few posts is so bad to you, so I have no idea why bulb would say its a good line. Seems like someone is latching on here and another whatever post from goldfish that doesn't add any additional content.

185 Again, I wanted to reiterate that my last post was me thought dumping on all the posts I missed. I can see how that may come across, but so be it. I'm happy to answer any additional questions you have regarding this post. I don't know what your point is in the last sentence? I already explained what happened there.

I am going to put my VOTE: Spartan for now, as explain in previous post. I will also say that I am also unsure of goldfish, but hesitant because of lack of posts

more filler - but still no real content.

also you claimed you are voting for Spartan based your previous post - but that first time you ever said Spartan's name was by voting them.

Therefore - the only other time you could of said Spartan's name was in scum chat.

I believe in the old school we called that a slip

This is the start of your case - as we've discussed before quoting a post using a post number 1 counts as quoting for me.

However you do realize this and address and say:

Question for juice: What are your thoughts on the elemk slot now that I have just shown that he did mention spartan in a previous post? It kind of defeats your argument that it is possibly some sort of slip.

i still don't think so - because not mention the name at all previous is still a weird angle. it still suggest that the might have brought up Spartan's name in a mafia chat and so was too comfortable in quoting them.

Town generally doesn't feel the need to be cryptic so the rest of the village understands.

So Elemk had discussed Spartan in Mafia chat - and that made him less likely to bring up his name explicitly in his post. He did quote his posts, but he didn't specifically use his name. Don't get me wrong, I love the paranoia here from you I think it's super town, but the

case

is so thin. It's perfectly OK for someone who is doing a catch up to just quote the posts and not mention the name.

And then we add the RVS stuff I guess.


I get juices paranoia but I'm seriously more concerned about those people sussing Elemk WTF is your case. Again I could be wrong about Elemk but for the love of all that is holy can someone please explain WHY?

Vote Goldfish, that is all.


@Juice, I don't wan't to misrep you, I wanna align, if there is more to your case I promise it isn't intentional, add your thoughts as needed.

[FancyPants]

I wouldn't mind juice giving a quick summary as to why juice thinks elemk is scum either but I do worry about flooding the thread with more back and forth with a slot I've already sorted.

SMH

Sign OK I remember how this goes, I need to make the case based on your posts, it would be nice if you just clarify to make my life easier.

OK so. Please call me out if I'm misrepresenting you - it's not intentional, I'm inferring your thoughts as best I can.

So lemme get this straight. I miss out on 5 pages and provide my thoughts on those pages and somehow that makes me scum? I was trying to do my best to catch up on what I had missed and provide some reads on what I felt through the pages I missed. Initially I thought I would have time to write a bit more and provide a new vote (which I stated in my last post) and now you are accusing me of being scum for running out of time. I thought the best approach would basically be to thought dump, but I guess you don't want that? I don't know what my alternative is? WOuld you have just accused me of leaving things/picking and choosing my posts if I had gone with a different approach? I dunno

The reasons I like Rad/Fancy's posts are because they have generated a line of questioning and responses that have pushed people to actually make meaningful discussion and thoughts, and sure maybe that isn't 100% AI, it is at least something to go off. Just based off my own readings and thoughts, there was some posts made that I agreed with.

As for 166, I don't know how to put it in words exactly, but as far as I can tell you are getting upset because someone hasn't read through every single word of your posts and quoted every single one of them. You state that you are putting your vote on FP until they are lynched which doesn't make sense? Obviously you were happy to swap it over to me now, but I get why you were so adamant on FP to the point of vote parking "until you are lynched".

I understand that the whole point of this game is to scum hunt, so I will try to focus on that more.

I wrote the least about them because as I explained in my post, there really isn't that much to comment on? I don't want to fall in the trap of low activity=scum, so I stand by what I said previously

And again by your logic, if I was being coached, they would be doing a pretty shit job considering that one of my few posts is so bad to you, so I have no idea why bulb would say its a good line. Seems like someone is latching on here and another whatever post from goldfish that doesn't add any additional content.

185 Again, I wanted to reiterate that my last post was me thought dumping on all the posts I missed. I can see how that may come across, but so be it. I'm happy to answer any additional questions you have regarding this post. I don't know what your point is in the last sentence? I already explained what happened there.

I am going to put my VOTE: Spartan for now, as explain in previous post. I will also say that I am also unsure of goldfish, but hesitant because of lack of posts

more filler - but still no real content.

also you claimed you are voting for Spartan based your previous post - but that first time you ever said Spartan's name was by voting them.

Therefore - the only other time you could of said Spartan's name was in scum chat.

I believe in the old school we called that a slip

This is the start of your case - as we've discussed before quoting a post using a post number 1 counts as quoting for me.

However you do realize this and address and say:

Question for juice: What are your thoughts on the elemk slot now that I have just shown that he did mention spartan in a previous post? It kind of defeats your argument that it is possibly some sort of slip.

i still don't think so - because not mention the name at all previous is still a weird angle. it still suggest that the might have brought up Spartan's name in a mafia chat and so was too comfortable in quoting them.

Town generally doesn't feel the need to be cryptic so the rest of the village understands.

So Elemk had discussed Spartan in Mafia chat - and that made him less likely to bring up his name explicitly in his post. He did quote his posts, but he didn't specifically use his name. Don't get me wrong, I love the paranoia here from you I think it's super town, but the

case

is so thin. It's perfectly OK for someone who is doing a catch up to just quote the posts and not mention the name.

And then we add the RVS stuff I guess.


I get juices paranoia but I'm seriously more concerned about those people sussing Elemk WTF is your case. Again I could be wrong about Elemk but for the love of all that is holy can someone please explain WHY?

Vote Goldfish, that is all.


@Juice, I don't wan't to misrep you, I wanna align, if there is more to your case I promise it isn't intentional, add your thoughts as needed.

[FancyPants]

I do make notes I have a spreadsheet.


Anyway most other people read me as town, if you believe that please try to convince me Elemk is a good lynch.

[FancyPants]

I'm resigned to the fact he isn't being lynched today - pushing for it would be obstructive, even if I am correct. With only 2 mafia with this setup - we have a few MLs to work with

My ego wants perfect games though...

IDK if Elemk isn't getting lynched today the slot seems like everyone's second choice.

Anyway important question for @Spartan and @Alwaysnever:

Let's say hypothetically you are a one shot town-aligned vigilante today, who can't choose to not-kill, who would you kill and why?

[FancyPants]

I'll move my vote back to goldfish then.

VOTE: goldfish

I think Spartan gave intent to hammer earlier and I think this puts goldfish at E-1 again now.

Good lad.

[FancyPants]

Anyway important question for @Spartan and @Alwaysnever:

Let's say hypothetically you are a one shot town-aligned vigilante today, who can't choose to not-kill, who would you kill and why?

Very good question, scum must hate how effective you seem to be, not just in this game but in your other games too when you've rolled town. Just curious did you find yourself becoming a policy elimination night one in other games where you are town because of how well you play?

To answer your question that's a difficult one and I would need to re-read some ISOs before making my decision, my main driving force would be finding a flip that would give us the most amount of information, I would say it would probably be somewhere in the pool of Cat, Elemk or AlwaysNever (who I've yet to re-read so this is on the assumption that I find from that what is giving Rad the read they are). Although I would want to keep in mind the chance of it being a stronger player who has the ability to fall under the radar rather that the 3 most inactive players, I could see maybe a bulba option but I felt convinced by their tone so would need to see from a re-read. But yeah good question very thought provoking.

Eish the bolded part is a bit red flaggy. How do you know I've been effective, I could have been barking up the wrong trees this entire game? You only have my word that I'm a good townie at all. Show some healthy paranoia will you. Not sure what to make of this.

I see you don't mention Goldfish in people you'd consider vigging, why are you willing to hammer her then?

[FancyPants]

Hi BBt

I need Goldfish to weigh in before I can really continue with this game.

[FancyPants]

Hi BBt

I need Goldfish to weigh in before I can really continue with this game.

I get that we were at a standstill with goldfish at E-1 and no response but bbt's entry is new content. So let's continue? Any new thoughts on elemk slot?

BBT's entrance is pretty good, with sensible commentary. I'm not blown away, I'd be interested to see who he think's is scum at the end of it which is what really matters to me.

I'm not the one who thought that slot was scummy though, I never did get much explanation as to why and I've given up asking.

It's frustrating that Goldfish isn't around - I have a feeling she's going to forces some poor rep to replace into her doomed scum slot, which isn't cool.

Also still waiting to here AlwaysNever, I asked him a question but he hasn't posted since.

[FancyPants]

@BBT if you have specific questions, feel free to ask although don't have all that much time today as I'm going out for drinks.

There is only one wagon because noone in this game votes. It's extremely irritating. Getting scum reads is like pulling teeth.

[FancyPants]

I agree she should get a chance to clam but I'm absolutely satisfied with the game state, Goldfish is our best bet, I've been the main advocate for the lynch so of course I'm satisfied with it.

Even if you think Spartan is scum him claiming intent to hammer doesn't mean we've made a mistake, and we should reverse course. He could very easily be a scum that wants to be on his buddies wagon.

If you have another candidate in mind BBT I'm happy to argue with you.
Before you arrived the only other person in danger of being lynched was your slot.

I Think you have a slight tendency to get paranoid when things look to easy, in the game we played together you shouldn't similar paranoia about the Loftwing wagon but that turned out to be scum. I'm not saying these games ARE equivalent - but sometimes the easy wagon is also the right one.

[FancyPants]

It would be pretty risky for the final scum to come to goldfish's defense at this stage. Besides maybe they are. I'm not necessarily accusing you, but I do think it's possible the scum buddy is another lurker like Cat or someone who's looking for credit or even you. Ive lynched scum on day 1 a few times in newbies and I can't ever recall their scum buddies attempting to mount a valiant defense I can post examples with time but I'm on my phone at the moment so not tonight.

[FancyPants]

UNVOTE: VOTE: FancyPants I don't see BBT and FP being aligned in any sort of way - anymore, but FP looking lowkey scum with this rep in.

[FancyPants]

Can you elboborate a little more on why Fancy and myself cannot be town/town?

Good luck.

[FancyPants]

So no NK?

I don't think it's juice but I kinda understand why you think it might be based on the final few pages "knowing" Goldfish would flip town is very strange.

I'm still liking the lurkers - I suppose we could have had a doc protect or some other shenanigans but I'm still liking the lurkers, Cat and AlwaysNever.

[FancyPants]

Unfortunately I have an extremely busy couple of days at work, I'm on a trip until Friday, I'll try to check in but please excuse less activity until then.

[FancyPants]

For now what I'm thinking - I do think Juice's actions towards the end of day 1 were scummy but in order to believe xe is scum I'd have to erase tons of posts I read as tonal town.

I'd also like to know from AlwaysNever and Cat, who there best guesses at current scum might be.

[FancyPants]

Scummy? It would have been anti town to prevent the lynch everyone else wanted. People need to know the difference between obstructive and scummy

I don't think we were ever in danger of no-lynching there.

But for me the main thing that was scummy was when you said - "Goldfish will flip town." I don't know how a townie could possibly know that... and now I'm talking myself into your wagon.

[FancyPants]

OK I have a hot second to address this game, I'm going to to a bit of a thread read but in the interest of full disclosure, here are my thoughts before I do ANY backtracking:

Elemk/BBT: It ain't this slot, I originally read 188 as a super townie post, genuine outrage and annoyance at being scum read for no reason. Additionally I showed interest in joinng the juice train at the beginning of today and despite this BBT abandoned this track of their own volition. I can't be positive Juice is town but that's what my instincts said. BBT leaving this wagon of their own volition + the town Elemk post tells me this slot is town.

BBT Town

Cat.Jpeg* - Need to reread.

Juice - Has done some scummy things, has disagreed with me plenty, but I had a major tonal town read on this slot based on a lot of interactions. If xe is scum xe is brilliant. I just can't reconcile our interactions with scum juice, in my mind just VI but definitely town

Juice is town

AlwaysNever - need a reread.

Rad - Need a reread.

Spartan117 (SE)
Hmm. This slot is tough but tonally I feel like this is an honest slot. It's hard to articulate exactly why but Spartan has felt town for me for ages. Need a reread, but my instincts say:

Spartan is town.

FancyPants (SE)
Obv town and lets be honest probably the doc target


Bulbazoor (SE)
The genuine frustration of Goldfish not flipping scum I can relate to and felt genuine. Need a reread but for now

Bulbazoor is town.

Before the reread that means: Bulba/BBT/Juice/Spartan are town

Rad/Cat/AlwaysNever are Scum.

I feel like this game may actually be simply but we screwed up the day 1 lynch. Largely because Goldfish did nothing.

[FancyPants]

VOTE: Cat

Can someone voting Bulba give me a case. I really don't think it's him.

After reading the last couple pages I'm liking Cat + Rad or Alwaysnever.

It ain't BBT It ain't Juice it Ain't Bulba I'll take that to the bank.

[FancyPants]

Keep in mind we need 5 votes to kill scum.

There are 8 players in this game and 2 scum meaning 5/6 townies need to be on board with a lynch which might explain why wagons lag.

Someone talk to me while I have some time.

If there was no scum in Goldfish and Cat after day 1 I'll be shocked.

[FancyPants]

Keep in mind we need 5 votes to kill scum.

There are 8 players in this game and 2 scum meaning 5/6 townies need to be on board with a lynch which might explain why wagons lag.

Someone talk to me while I have some time.

If there was no scum in Goldfish and Cat after day 1 I'll be shocked.

[FancyPants]

It basically has to be Cat + Always never and maaaybe Rad or Spartan. Please interact with me so I can sort this if you disagree

[FancyPants]

I like your post Spartan, I think the effort alone makes you look townie and solidifies my town read on you, however I'm not convinced aboout the Bulba case.

Everything post you've brought up from him I feel like could be read from a town perspective.

Can you isolate the MOST scummy thing you feel bulba has done?

[FancyPants]

If there was no scum in Goldfish and Cat after day 1 I'll be shocked.

I don't believe you think that they are scum purely based off their inactivity right? Someone not turning up to the game doesn't have any control in what alignment they are, I get if someone is struggling with the game because they are unable to make reads because they are scum can lead to inactivity which is why there is a link between the two but it can't be an exclusive, these newbie games a full of players switching out all the time who aren't scum.

It's not about inactivity it's about process of elimination from town reads.

I'm very confident: BBT, Juice, Bulba are town.

I'm less sure of (but still kinda convinced) that Sparta/Rad/AlwaysNever are town.

That leaves Cat.

And obviously since their are two scum at least one of my town reads is wrong.

[FancyPants]

I feel like this game may actually be simply but we screwed up the day 1 lynch. Largely because Goldfish did nothing.

If the game is so simple who are the scum team, are you implying its Cat & AlwaysNever

Simply in that the game was basically solved day one.

Most people thought Cat/Goldfish/Spartan/AlwaysNever were where scum lay.

But since Goldfish happened to be town we are overthinking it

[FancyPants]

After reading the last couple pages I'm liking Cat + Rad or Alwaysnever.

Why has your stance on Rad changed? you had a town read on him before right?

I did have a town read but because he's an SE, and hasn't been overly townie - If I have to widen my net he's in it.

[FancyPants]

I still really don't like Goldfish if I was a dayvig I'd elim her right now, no questions asked.

I'd like @Spartan to weigh in on Goldfish.
I'd also like Cat and Goldfish to properly weigh in on each other.

My Sus-ometer is going off I think I've found one of them VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon Rad do you want to join me?

Absolutely. Scum cannot be allowed to live.

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

I swear I get RVS'ed in every game I join, I must have a particularly suspicious username or something. That or I'm always scum

This is NAI for her.

They've all done what I expect of scum in newbies - that is not commit on scum reads at all, and throw out some token town reads.

In my opinion scum have trouble manufacturing scum hunting as they know whatever they say is essentially bullshit, even wrong opinions about who the scum are show intent. I've seen very little real scum hunting intent from those 3.

I'd like to point you to some of my previous games on this site, and point out that I'm not entierly new to the game of mafia and I'm actually not bad at bullshitting scumreads, it's a lot easier to make content out of nothing as scum than it is to actually work out whether what people are saying is really suspicious or if it's their playstyle or random and NAI.

If I was scum I'd be posting a LOT more reads because I know that not voting/scumreading people early on gets me scumread.

She has said stuff like 'If I was scum I would be more agressive/xyz' before and she's been town IIRC but as scum I think she would be likely to say this anyway, especially with me playing to try and seem town. I can tell you she does believe that its not hard to BS reads as scum.

Those were really the only posts from her ISO that interested me. The nothing scumread on me I didn't like but also sadly NAI. Her level of activity is also NAI. Basically its a bunch of NAI however normally by this point she's said at least something that would make me think she was town so right now she's probably on the scummier side, also POE.
@FancyPants I don't really get why you 'really don't like Goldfish' seems rather extreme based off very little, especially the 'no questions asked' bit, thats not what town wants in mafia. I don't see anything that could make you so sure besides how you think inactive or emojis is scummy, which I dont agree with.

Also I read plenty of Goldfish's games and Cat and Goldfish play a lot together.

This fence sitting is hella scummy. Surely if you've played together so often you would have a more concrete opinion.

[FancyPants]

Hey Rad

I really liked post 82. It's what made me town read you in the first place.

That said can you justify post 337
Quoted here
:

I only think that Bulba or FP will flip mafia - if Elmk is Mafia.

Cat is my biggest town read - but when they mirrored me - I felt unsure.

I feel I should be worried about Spartan

I'm assuming your vote/unvote on goldfish is a vote which makes what FP said in #330 make sense.

With Cat being your biggest town read, which is think is a bit odd given the contrast in the amount of content given compared to others, who would you think would be Goldfish's scum partner if they get eliminated and flip scum?

Game just needs a bit of life. No one else is going to follow me on Elmk today - now that he is getting repped out.

Eh, I'll vote elemk with you if you want. Slot is scummy as is. Yeah we can give a rep a chance to help us read it better but that doesn't make it any less scummy right now, and a rep will take a couple days to really give readable content if they're even active. Apathy has a chance to build if we stall too long anyway.

VOTE: elemk

If someone comes in and wants to vote goldfish, I'll switch back as the hammer.

Can you say why that slot was scummy?

[FancyPants]

@Rad also minor note, you may not be SE but if you're "mafia scum" it means you have 1000 posts plus on the the site which means my point about your experience stands.

[FancyPants]

Yeah Rad I think that take isn't great but I can see your thought process.

Its Cat. It has to be. Possible scum buddies include alwaysnever/Spartan and Rad.

We have a freeshot thanks to the NK save.

Frankly if it's neither Cat or Goldfish scum deserve the win for being that sneaky,

[FancyPants]

Yeah Rad I think that take isn't great but I can see your thought process.

Its Cat. It has to be. Possible scum buddies include alwaysnever/Spartan and Rad.

We have a freeshot thanks to the NK save.

Frankly if it's neither Cat or Goldfish scum deserve the win for being that sneaky,

[FancyPants]

If I vote Bulba - and he filips town too.
Anyone that doesn't want BBT - then mafia are claiming the win

Hey Juice

I don't really understand what you're saying here, are you saying that if bulba flips town BBT is definitely scum?


Can you explain what you mean?

[FancyPants]

...

So the implication is that if bulba isn't scum, then it's definitely BBT? Otherwise it's game over?

How you know that Bulba and BBT are inversely aligned?

Why could scum not be in neither of those two?

This is my last shot at trying to understand you Juice.

[FancyPants]

I like your post Spartan, I think the effort alone makes you look townie and solidifies my town read on you, however I'm not convinced aboout the Bulba case.

Everything post you've brought up from him I feel like could be read from a town perspective.

Can you isolate the MOST scummy thing you feel bulba has done?

- outright lieing that he has answered my questions when he has very clearly not.
I dont like your association that because you get a tonal reads that someone sounds townie that makes them town, its literally your job as scum to sound as if your town...

Hey Spartan

I know it's kinda shitty to make you do the work but can you point out where he lied outright?

[FancyPants]

Sorry been really busy with real life stuff.

I considered replacing out but it should calm down in a few days.

[FancyPants]

Sorry been really busy with real life stuff.

I considered replacing out but it should calm down in a few days.

what would your two nominations be - and if you are going AFK - you might be best just parking a vote

I will get to a reread either tonight or tomorrow. I still think it's Cat though liking the AlwaysNever slot slightly more after briefly skimming the replacements thoughts. Second guess would probably be Spartan.

I see there is some heat on Bulba I'll try to grapple with that when I do my reread but I remember thinking they were super town so idk.

[FancyPants]

Juice: Bulba / BBT
Spartan: Bulba/ BBT
Bulba: Cat/AlwaysNever
Cat: Bulba/BBT

No Nominations:
BBT
FP
Rad
Flower

Hold up I still haven't done my reread but my noms were Cat and Spartan. Honestly Bulba an BBT are two of the last people I'd vote along with Juice.

[FancyPants]

Ok It's 11:15pm here, Sunday tomorrow so hopefully have time for the promised catch up.

In the meanwhile can someone please explain to me the willingness to vote Bulba and BBT, unless it's explained in the previous 6 pages that I haven't read. Specifically I'm talking to Spartan/Cat and Flower, you've all said you're willing to vote these people you better have explained it. People in this game have a habit of sussing people without actually building a case.

I know we have less than 2 days left, worst case scenario I'll sheep BBT and Bulba. Yes I'm going there. Maybe I have absolutely no idea what's going on this game but I'd put money on the fact that the Elemk/BBT slot and Bulba are town and the people willing to vote them are either wrong or scum.

After widening the net a bit it's probably in the Cat/Flowers/Spartan/Rad group. Spartan is my least certain read there, my gut says town.
Again I'm sorry I haven't been around much I wanna do a reread with fresh eyes and haven't had time (and now it's late at night and I'm kinda drunk).


I still just think it's Cat. Can someone who town reads that slot just explain why?

I know I was wrong about Goldfish but that doesn't mean I'm wrong about cat.

[FancyPants]

Doing my catchup now (drunk) it aint't bulba. Or Juice or BBT (at page 21)

[FancyPants]

Goddamn this shit again. Bulba just has all my opinions.

So I know I'm town.

Therefore Bulba having the same opinions as me makes me think he's town. There are two options here:
1. They came to the same thoughts I did through genuine similar thought process.
2. They are scum sheeping me because my opinions are wrong and it suits them to do so.

For the love of all that is holy I hope these 4 people voting bulba have good reasons because I'm going to need some convincing at this point.

Continuing my catch up...

[FancyPants]

Every post Juice makes is scummy wow. I don't think they're scum based on tone, but wow. I don't think I've ever played with someone who I fundamentally disagree with more.

[FancyPants]

All of this based on a question I did in fact answer. How hilarious

A question you did in fact answer? hmm lets investigate shall we?

Bulba what are your thoughts on BBT, would you be happy with a BBT elimination today?

Here was my original question directed to you, on its own not hidden in a big chunk of text or anything.

I still think FP and Juice are town af. I am very stubborn in my reads so it will be hard to change them

Your first post after my question, clearly not an answer to me about BBT, just you stating your town reads of FP and Juice and how you are not willing to change that.. ok

VOTE: alwaysnever

Your second post is a vote on AlwaysNever, no context, no comments in this post to go along just you voting the most innactive player who hasnt posted in 7/8 days, was you expecting him to return based on the pressure you appled in this impactful post?

I would also be down to vote cat

Your third post is you letting everyone know that you would be open to voting cat the second most innactive player, and just that no reasoning in this post as to why just that the offers there if anyone wants it... ok

I really hope there is a scum in those two. I am not letting spartan off the hook. My pool of players I will be looking into today are:

Spartan
Cat
AlwaysNever
BBT but I am less sure on this one.

Your fourth post after my question and here we see a few more words this time. Yet they are just you expressing your hope that the two people (most inactive) have hopefully 1 scum amongst them 2 (still not answering my question).
You say youre not letting me off the hook, (shock, for what? its not clear)
You then list the players you will be looking into today (I hope you are looking at me while I'm showing my good side) consisting of Myself, Cat, AN and BBT but you feel the need to express you are less sure of the need to look into him today (I wonder why? Hmm)

and just checking yep that doesnt tell me what you think of BBT or if you would be happy with a BBT elim today, nope.

VOTE: cat

My reads boil down to strong trs on Juice and Fancy. I don't see myself ever fosing Juice tbh. And then that leaves you, Rad, who I have a weaker tr on. Then, BBT has done well to ease a bit of the suspicions I had on his slot. That leaves Cat, AlwaysNever, and Spartan.

Now here is your fifth post since my question and this one is much meatier, you have now switched your vote from AN to Cat with only 3 posts inbetween this and your last vote, 2 of them being yours. You seem to change your vote based on 1 post from Rad asking why you didnt just vote Cat, so you do very sheepy just following everyone else, you dont vote them because you have a scum read on them, you explain that you town read FP Juice and have a weak town read on Rad, so I guess that just leaves everyone else for you to scum read? your scum reads are based just on whos left, there doesnt seem to be any actual scum reading proper thought provoking questions involved.

You state BBT has done well to ease a bit of the suspicions you had on him. now this ties into one of my posts right after your 5th post questioning this because you just made a simple easy statement with no actual backup, anyone can say what you did, it doesnt mean anything, we need to know in what way this was done, I feel like you don't explain yourself because you cant't. It is very hard to have suspicion and change suspicion when you already know whos town and whos scum.

Again just to remind this still does not answer my question of what your actual thoughts are on BBT and what you would think if they was eliminated today. Looks like youre just avoiding answering the question.

Bulba what are your thoughts on BBT, would you be happy with a BBT elimination today?

@bulba why didn't you answer my question? Hmm

Following your 5th post I challenged you asking why you didnt answer my question.

BBT has done well to ease a bit of the suspicions I had on his slot.

Has he? In what way?

What suspicion did you have on him before that you don't now?

And like I said following up on your post about your reasoning for why your suspicion on BBT has eased. Lets see if you answer this either?

I then made #584 explaining my thoughts and how it looks like to me that you are trying to get through the day undetected without doing enough to be on anyones radar, sus the people who are absent because thats the 'in' thing to do and they wont push you, they are not here, join Cats wagon because its easy to as there are 2 others on it and you town read everyone else so they must be scum or at least you.. hope.

I would have been ecstatic after a goldfish town flip as she was incredibly scummy. You guys just can't read me.

I actually find this post quite amusing, now bare in mind this is your 6th post after my original question. You say that you would been ecstatic after goldfish flipped town (I am assuming on the premise that if you was scum, again you are not very clear). So you are telling us, that if you was scum then you would have celebrated and been all happy in your posts in a way that would translate through for us to see? do you not think that might give the game away, errm wouldnt we all notice if you was ecstatic after we eliminate a town player? Curious.

And I can sense scum thinks I am somehow an easy lynch today. I see what you are doing BBT. People just can't see that I am disappointed I was wrong and thus have less motivation to try as much.

This is your 7th post after my question - still unanswered - maybe you are feeling the pressure of having a vote on you, but you state that with honestly very little pressure on your slot that "scum thinks I am somehow an easy lynch today" not sure if deflecting or trying to appear town - weird - you then follow on to say "I see what you are doing BBT" I am not sure what this is reference to, you don't quote a post, I can only assume this is something you had been discussing in scum chat with your scum partner BBT about trying to distance but forgot to quote the post (maybe the post was in scum chat, who knows)

And how does it seem like I am trying to move through the day? There's other slots that have not even spoken a damn word like alwaysnever. Why so focused on me spartan? And suddenly cat picks up her effort today after not trying at all d1? What do you make of that?

You follow up your 7th post after my question with you 8th with only 2 minutes inbetween. Here you look as if you are questioning the reasoning on my scum read on you except again you dont quote a post so its unhelpful for anyone scrolling down reading your post without the context. You choose to deflect to an inactive slot that hasnt been active in 8 days as the reason as to why I shouldn't be scum reading you. If you are town Bulba why are you so worried if im "focused" on you?
Either way you still havent answered my question, any of them.

All of this based on a question I did in fact answer. How hilarious

This is your 9th post after my original question also quoted at the top of this post, with you stating that you did in fact answer my question, hmm I wonder if your post where you told me your thoughts on BBT or if you would be happy with a BBT elimination? were deleted or maybe even got lost in the mail? Did you use a pigeon? maybe an owl?
You still have yet to answer my original question or my additional questions in #565

I voted cat and alwaysnever. Should tell you who I fucking want lynched. I can't even fathom how I am an option for a lynch today.

A minute later you follow up with your 10th post after my question with you stating you voted Cat and AlwaysNever (the two most innactive players in the game, and the second vote was a sheep vote) and that it should tell me who you want lynched? but wait Bulba I never asked you who you wanted to be eliminated, I specifically asked you on your specific thoughts on BBT and if you would be happy with a BBT elimination yet you deviate and deflect at every opertunity talking about inactive players.
You the follow up saying how you can't fathom how you are an option for elimination today, well maybe it is because of the lack of game moving content and pure sheeping and attempts to hide under the radar.

For those that can't understand, I would like alwaysnever or cat today.

2 minutes after your 10th we see your 11th post where you clarify you wish to eliminate the most inactive players in the game thats right guys its AlwaysNever and Cat, now by no means am I defending them in their inactivity but with them being inactive it means they are not here to interact with (thankfully Cat has been recently) in order to sort their slot and find out what their alignment is

by their play

not their lack of it.

And spartan I won't let this push over a fabricated reason slide. You are also on my radar.

Here is your 12th post and you dont push me, you dont question me you simple send a very empty threat that you wont let this slide (sounds like I've been lined up for the next night kill, someone help eek) never the less you still dont answer my question shame.

So your response is to vote me for no reason? Have you read what I have said?

Your13th post after my original question and still nothing that answers it at all, I am very disappointed, I believe it is a response to Rad and their vote on you, but you don't quote anyone so again its not completely clear to tell.

And thats it 13 posts after my question to you to date and nothing in any of it that answers me much to your claims that you have indeed answered me, this feels like scum to me.

VOTE: Bulbazoor

Spartan we need to talk about this post it's important because you're one of the few people who made a case on Bulba.

Your main case seems to be that bulba is voting inactive players, if I'm misreporting this case please let me know.

My questions are thus:
- Why is voting inactive players scummy?
- Personally from context I feel like Bulba is going off process of elimination from town reads, why do you think this is an incorrect assessment?

[FancyPants]

Juice do you townread Cat please?

[FancyPants]

VOTE: BBT
Also fine with Bulba
also lurking means you might be active but purposefully not posting any real content as opposed to just being innactive
I townread spartan now too
slightly less fancypants, the confidence in me being scum when you wrong on goldfish is alarming

Cat

please explicitly state why you are voting BBT here.

[FancyPants]

OK my interest in the game has been reignited.

I, like Bulba was kinda depressed Goldfish didn't flip town, coupled with real life being hectic I slacked and I'm sorry for that.

Cat I'm coming for you.

Your partner is probably Rad or Flowers, that is all.

[FancyPants]

Juice do you townread Cat please?

You and Cat are my biggest two townreads

Yeah but why please, like I want to understand why you townread her. As someone who is scumreading the slot I'm asking you to please explain why you townread her so I can understand it.

[FancyPants]

Juice: Bulba / BBT
Spartan: Bulba/ BBT
Bulba: Cat/AlwaysNever
Cat: Bulba/BBT

No Nominations:
BBT
FP
Rad
Flower

Hold up I still haven't done my reread but my noms were Cat and Spartan. Honestly Bulba an BBT are two of the last people I'd vote along with Juice.

Interesting, what exactly is it that puts myself in your top 2 scum reads that you would want to eliminate me today, FP?

Also @Juice I was thinking what if we also did a similar thing like what FP has done here on the last 2 people we would want to eliminate to try and gauge where everyone stands with that. I get its less important than the bottom two but for example here FP's last two, I assume strongest town reads (along with juice)? are the same two that 3 other players would put in their bottom two, I'm curious what it would look like.

My 2 least likely would be Juice and I guess FP.

I love you Spartan you're a cool guy.

Sadly that doesn't not make you scum.

My main issue with you stems from the fact that you're so chill when people sus you, it may be a personality thing but in my experience most people when attacked get angry/annoyed/upset/lurkery not everyone can be

understanding

of their attackers it's kinda a weird reaction. That said it's possible it's just who you are it's also a POE thing.

Actually on reread I'm less suspicious of you for now. I'm liking Rad more and more on reread (and Cat of course).

[FancyPants]

There whole plays has been town from top to bottom - there is no real reason to push for Cat on Day 2 especially when people like BBT and Bulba are alive still. Very hard for me to scum read Cat and yourself - with those two alive still. Since we only have 2 mafia alive

Saying "there whole game reads town top to bottom", doesn't help me. Please assume I'm stupid and need things explained from your perspective.

Why are they town? What have they done that makes them town? What posts did you like? What did they say that you think is town etc?

[FancyPants]

Goddamn this shit again. Bulba just has all my opinions.

So I know I'm town.

Therefore Bulba having the same opinions as me makes me think he's town. There are two options here:
1. They came to the same thoughts I did through genuine similar thought process.
2. They are scum sheeping me because my opinions are wrong and it suits them to do so.

For the love of all that is holy I hope these 4 people voting bulba have good reasons because I'm going to need some convincing at this point.

Continuing my catch up...

Bulba and Elemk both shared your viewpoints - so that makes you town read them. Don't you think at least one of those slots - might be trying to pocket you as an ally?

Totally possible keeping that option open. I don't necessarily think pocketing is a very common tactic though. Occam's razor says they just agree with me.

[FancyPants]

OK my interest in the game has been reignited.

I, like Bulba was kinda depressed Goldfish didn't flip town, coupled with real life being hectic I slacked and I'm sorry for that.

Cat I'm coming for you.

Your partner is probably Rad or Flowers, that is all.

welcome back Fancy

i'm online right now so feel free to ask me questions & talk with me

Yeah lets!

BBT and Bulba why them? I'm needing a case on either of these two slots.

[FancyPants]

There whole plays has been town from top to bottom - there is no real reason to push for Cat on Day 2 especially when people like BBT and Bulba are alive still. Very hard for me to scum read Cat and yourself - with those two alive still. Since we only have 2 mafia alive

Saying "there whole game reads town top to bottom", doesn't help me. Please assume I'm stupid and need things explained from your perspective.

Why are they town? What have they done that makes them town? What posts did you like? What did they say that you think is town etc?

At this point in the game - I am more concerned with getting rid of scum reads, rather than making in depth cases for town reads [which without a number of flips] generally hold no value

I understand that but please try to understand my perspective. My biggest scum read is cat. I townread you. You townread cat. In an effort to understand the game I need you to try and explain to me why Cat is town, otherwise I can't leave this slot alone.

[FancyPants]

We don't need to agree on Cat - honestly it offers a different dynamic. All I would say - is that you can't expect Cat to be the lynch today. At the moment it probably either BBT or Bulba.

We kinda do though mathematically.

I've talked about this before but their are 8 players left, 2 are scum we need 5 to lynch. That means if town are going to successfully lynch we need 5/6 town players to agree.

If we are going to lynch bulba or BBT I need a case!!! I know we think differently but I need some sort of reason to vote them.

From my perspective their are probably two scum willing to vote these people and their are two townies who are mistaken in (Spartan/Flowers/Yourself), no I

could

be mistaken too but I need to be convinced.

[FancyPants]

@Rad and Flowers going to reply to you now standby.

[FancyPants]

Juice: Bulba / BBT
Spartan: Bulba/ BBT
Bulba: Cat/AlwaysNever
Cat: Bulba/BBT
FP: Cat/Spartan
Flower: Bulba/BBT


BBT
Rad

Bulba has 4
BBT has 4
Cat has 2

BBT and Rad - really curious to know where you actually sit on this.

I'm not making a decision until bbt and bulba have had some input into this process.

In the meantime I'll iso cat and come to a conclusion there.

If we run dangerously low on time and haven't seen anything from bbt/bulba to help make up my mind I'll settle with juice's choices.

Let's say dangerously low is 24 hours left? Though I'm kinda feeling we might be dangerously low right now... Lemme at least look at cat again...

I will say my reread of cat didn't help ease the scum read at all. Tonight I'll have more time to focus and if bbt hasn't shown back up I'll do an iso dive there as well. If bulba still hasn't posted anything I can analyze then iso there as well as review Spartan's case.

I would love for juice to give a perspective on why cat is town here.

I haven't read through Fancy's recent stuff in depth yet but it looks fun gotta watch out for drunk posting though, take it from me you can waste all your town cred instantly

My drunk brain is best brain.

Also vote someone.

[FancyPants]

I really hope it's not bulba I'm going to look like such a tit if it is.

[FancyPants]

OK my interest in the game has been reignited.

I, like Bulba was kinda depressed Goldfish didn't flip town, coupled with real life being hectic I slacked and I'm sorry for that.

Cat I'm coming for you.

Your partner is probably Rad or Flowers, that is all.

welcome back Fancy

i'm online right now so feel free to ask me questions & talk with me

Yeah lets!

BBT and Bulba why them? I'm needing a case on either of these two slots.

sorry i don't... which sucks :/

i'm really not seeing Cat as mafia -- if you would like to point me to moments when Cat seems especially scummy, i will look at those moments! i think their response to being pushed today has just been townie but you disagree with this? throughout the day, i've also felt better about Rad & Spartan, both of whom were originally nullish for me. my PoE has been pretty standard but if i move Rad & Spartan & Cat out of my PoE, & i have the very useful information that i am town, then it's just Bulb & BBT. Bulb & BBT as a pair also does make sense for me i think? -- i wasn't a huge fan of Spartan's case on Bulb either but pushing on Bulb about BBT makes a lot of sense & it's a line of questioning i also want to pursue. i think i pointed out a weird Bulb-BBT interaction as well.

i'm interested that Juice has seemed noticeably scummier to you on this reread? i haven't evaluated Juice's slot in a very long time

from your point of view, if i am town who would w!Cat's partner be? Rad?

Yeah Rad probably, but it could be you or spartan.

I don't really scumread juice, it's a weird relationship where I strongly townread xem based on tone but disagree with a lot of their thoughts. I've played enough mafia to know that people I disagree with aren't necessarily scum.

As for cat the case boils down to:
- Post 309 the "NAI" goldfish, they have clearly played many many games together, I can see scum cat here not wating to cinriminate herself to strongly by scum reading Goldfish but keeping the lynch open by not townread her.
- No genuine scumreads all game, she's basically coasted and only effort posted when poked, classic

No interest in actually solving the game just saving her own skin.

- I've read some of town cat's games and I think she puts more effort into game solving when that's actually her win condition.
- Also process of elimination from town reads.

[FancyPants]

I don't understand how anybody thinks it's me. There is no case. Everyone just followed a random guy saying they susses me and their case is not even good. That's how bad the game is.

Chill Bulba, it's probably scum fueled, let's win.

[FancyPants]

My snap nomination is cat bulba. I meta read BBT as town here but I don't trust my reads on bbt in general and his questioning rants have been questionable. Bulba has been promising input here and has presented nothing and I have no meta to pull from for them.

VOTE SOMEONE RAD. STOP BEING A COWARDLY SCUM SCUM.

[FancyPants]

Meh. I can't empathize, try to win, don't get mad, it's a game play to your win condition. If you're scum well done for almost making me feel sorry for you I guess.

[FancyPants]

I still don't see how anyone would see me as scum-motivated here. I am just having trouble understanding that. All I am is a big pile of confusion.

Well Spartan made a case here 610 .

Everyone else nail to the wall!

Burn them!

Scourge their flesh!

etc etc...

But above all don't let them get away with it (if you're town).

[FancyPants]

@Humaneeatingmonkey

We need a votecount brosef.

[FancyPants]

Juice - is cat the compromise vote to vote with your town block? Cause I feel like you should be voting bbt here, and I'd consider doing that with you, but fp hard vetoes it and all of us have cat as top pick. Is that your thinking?

Hey Rad!

Convince me BBT is scum?

Like. I can be wrong. (not often but it happens once in a blue moon).

I'm not seeing the BBT case, it's possible I missed that post?

[FancyPants]

Also vote Rad WTF.

You not voting is so scummy.

You're someone whose played a decent amount of mafia.
You have two suspects, and you're not voting either,


My thoughts now are that you don't want to commit to your scum buddy Cat and are hoping that the bulba or BBT wagons will take off.

You're fence sitting to save your partner and don't want to commit either way.

Convince me otherwise please.

[FancyPants]

I'm not at all convinced you're scum Rad but I'd like you to commit one way or the other.

[FancyPants]

Fancy chill please. I got off cat so flower could catch up and then we started doing this nomination thing. I'm trying to hear out juice's plan here. I'm fully willing and ready to jump back on cat wagon shortly. You know I'm not one to be afraid to vote so back off for a bit.

Aight fair.

[FancyPants]

Flowers though. Why no vote, Juice has you as a bulba/BBTW voter why aren't you voting them?

Edit: thanks to post review.

Brah, 30 pages and no scum suspects?

[FancyPants]

I really don't think it's BBT, I don't think anyone has adequately explained to me why he's scummy. Is this all just about residual Elemk scumminess? Because that case was also real thin.

[FancyPants]

I think you should probably claim Cat.

[FancyPants]

There is 7 hours to deadline.

[FancyPants]

How everything has played out - I would give Rad the same 100% certainty I have with FP. I also feel that if our Doctor - is either BBT, Bulba, Spartan or flowerdogs, they should claim and we could have this game ponetially in the bag

To be honest I thought you were JK or doctor you heavily forshadowed it yesterday, I agree a mass claim could be a good idea we should clear 3 people from one minimum.

[FancyPants]

The fact that everyone seems to be scum reading BBT (except FP) is making me think they are actually town, this is getting really confusing, I am feeling really paranoid.

Juice, bulba and Flowers scum reads me d3.

FP are you still scum reading me D3?
BBT do you scum read me D3?

Not really.

My radar has been pretty off this game. Gun to my head I'd say it's Rad and Flowers but you're in the suspect pool.

Need to relook at Bulba and BBT.

How do we feel about a mass claim? We should have at least two clears maybe as many as four. I'd like to be ale. To whittle the suspect pool. This is the last time we can do it before LYLO where scum can fake claim freely.

If scum

[FancyPants]

If scum fake claim today worst case scenario we miss-lynch our PR and then get scum the next day.

[FancyPants]

Sorry I don't understand how would we have 4 clears?

Up to. If we have two PRs and a doc that's 4 clears. A Jk at least gives us decent info.

[FancyPants]

I'm operating under the assumption that the doc/Jk is carrying rather than scum just forgetting to kill. But worst case this is the last day PRs can claim safely.

[FancyPants]

I don't know this newbie set up well though when I last played a newbie the set up was different.

I'm. Looking for opinions from people like BBT/Bulba/Rad i.e. People who know this set up and hae some experience with it.

[FancyPants]

I'm operating under the assumption that the doc/Jk is carrying rather than scum just forgetting to kill. But worst case this is the last day PRs can claim safely.

Is there a world where its you and juice and you are trying to go for a no night kill game and get all the town to eliminate itself off?

I mean I'd encourage you to ISO me and Juice and come to that conclusion.

[FancyPants]

So Rad is it in towns best interest to claim in a particular order.

Like VTs first or something?

[FancyPants]

Yeah OK I'm not married to the idea I'd just like to have a 2/4 or 2/3 rather than the 2/6 I'm currently staring at.

I definitely need a reread with the context of both wagons being town.

Might have time this evening definitely will tomorrow. Posting from my. Phone at the moment.

[FancyPants]

I still think it's juice in which case BBT is cleared too because he picked up on the same PR breadcrumbing I did.

[FancyPants]

It doesn't "clear" him but BBT talked about his town read of juice and why it would be anti-town to elucidate on why, so if juice is protective then scum BBT kills the protective 99% of the time. Therefore BBT looks real good if Juice is actually protective. My hope is that juice is just gambiting again and we essentially have 3 clears and a basically clear in BBT. However Juice has confirmed nothing and I can't really continue on this train of thought until he does one way or the other.

[FancyPants]

My current pet theory is pretty wild and it also involves juice erroneously believing that JKing someone clears them.

[FancyPants]

As to why I'm bringing all this PR stuff up I'm either A) wrong about juice or B) I believe juice needs to come out with his info today.

[FancyPants]

Not it.

[FancyPants]

Wow this game got spicy.
Did a quick skim but I need to make an effort post, should come in like an hour.

The Juice JK stuff I predicted and I'll speak about why it was an easy pick up and why I don't think we can afford to waste a vote on BBT.

[FancyPants]

Work is now blocking this site, tragedy. Ok I’m going to try and do this from my phone.

[FancyPants]

Why Juice was Jk or Doc

Firstly as late in day 1 417 juice is voting me.

Then early in day 2 he seems to have flipped and now he’s pretty damn sure I’m town:

If we assume - that last night a killed was stopped. Mechanics wise for this site - do both mafia have to vote a kill for a kill to happen

I wait for more reasonable players to return - but yeah I am pretty sure Cat and FP are both town for sure now

Then Juice asks this question:

I wait for more reasonable players to return - but yeah I am pretty sure Cat and FP are both town for sure now

If we assume - that last night a killed was stopped. Mechanics wise for this site - do both mafia have to vote a kill for a kill to happen

The only role that really cares about this information is JK so at the point I’m fairly sure Juice is Jk and saved me last night, Ok great I don’t bring any attention to this in thread for obvious reasons.

He later says:

like I said - people should take my gambit seriously. But if I die tonight - get BBT tomorrow.
And remember FP - is 100% town, there is no way he can be mafia

And then right before the day ends:

well if Cat flips town [then its Spartan/Flower] & BBT - and we get BBT tomorrow.

If Cat flips scum. Then we get BBT tomorrow.

If I die tonight - remember FP has to 100% be town.

VOTE: Cat

He’s pretty clearly telegraphing here “guys if I die I targeted Fancy”.
It’s so obvious I’m kinda surprised anyone missed it.

Anyway this all seems like pointless analysis because town knows this already but it’s important context in clearing BBT.

Also credit where it’s due Juice for carrying this game with your PR shots.

[FancyPants]

Oh and the Juice clearing me “100%” thing along with his earlier comment about mechanics is why I thought he was Jk who didn’t understand exactly how JK works (Juice in future you should PM the mod there, they aren’t obligated to read every post and often just skim looking for votes).

[FancyPants]

The only part relevant below is the bolded:

Of course the game picks up when I'm not around. Caught up and posting some thoughts;

VOTE: BBT

Would love an explanation for this vote. Did you think I was scum before I started pushing you?

Spartan's probably town here. End of D1 I felt like his emotions towards BBT were sincere.

UNVOTE:

Cat wagon can wait.

Couple of things;

Why do sincere emotions = town? Why couldn't scum!Spartan have sincere emotions about me saying he can't hammer and bringing attention to it?

I like your unvote of Cat at E-1, not in terms of alleviating pressure on a slot I want to elim, but in terms of letting the thread breathe.

Unless you're scum with Cat, of course.

FP - can you please not vote Cat. I feel we are both seen as the two most obvious town reads - so you are just giving mafia an easier time by pushing on who I would consider the third most townie person

You said Cat was your biggest town read when I asked you to vote for them?

At least ask me shit

Engage me. Don't just go off of some BS case

This kind of posting is scummy. Like, you can't independently contribute to the game without other people engaging you first. Shows a lack of genuine game-solving.

Well, I know you want me to say bbt, bulba, Spartan. And that's probably my order anyway, but bbt and bulba are more equals than ordered there. This isn't bbt's scum game from my experience with him but he's still doing questionable shit that I don't love. I read a previous game of his recently and had him as my top town read all game only to find out when the game ended he was scum. I hard defended him in my first newbie and he was scum. He's doing nothing here that I expect scum bbt to do and I think his town play is just scummy in general. I leaned on that fact in my scum game against him.

Cat, BBT, Bulba are my POE.

Your read on me here is all over the place. Feels very fence-sitty. 'This isn't BBT's scum game', 'he's doing nothing that I expect scum!BBT to do' and 'his town play is scummy' all mixed in with a sprinkling of meta bullshit. Then I appear in your PoE, wtf?

For example - I would lynch BBT or Bulba.

If people change their scum reads after Day 2 - it will also rouse suspicion

You're supposed to change reads when new information is presented. Keeping reads static/stale is a classic scum tell.

1.) i think Cat is probably town (my initial read on the slot was colored a lot by BBT's sun on Cat & i townread BBT). i think their responses to being put under increasing pressure have been good.
as for that BBT/Cat interaction today (my initial reason for scumreading Cat) -- tbh i don't know how to read it. these long disagreements of people misrepresenting each other / not responding to questions (Fancy/Juice day one, BBT/Juice day two, BBT/Cat day two, Sparta/Bulb day two)... i realize i tend to read all of them as TvT. (@BBT -- why did you read Juice as town & Cat as scum today when, to me, from the outside, your disagreements with both of them feel the same.) i also don't think w!Cat puts themself on the line to defend t!Juice so intensely; if Juice is town & so widely townread, it's surely in the best interest for wolves to make Juice seem suspicious for end of day one.

Which responses do you feel were good? In our back and forth, they consistently misrepresented me,

agreed

with some of my points after I refuted them but

still

scum read me anyway. In what world is that town? I suggest you go back and reread.

Juice gave me reason to believe he was town and that's pretty much all I'll say on it.

I initially voted Cat because I had no read on them and wanted to either apply pressure or force an interaction to try and help me (despite Cat repeatedly saying I was voting them for lurking which is flat out untrue). Our back and forth pretty much confirmed them as scum for me due to reasons previously stated and even more so with their OMGUS approach to me now.

I will probably never understand why exactly I am even a target for a lynch. But whatever. I need to cool my head instead of resorting ti calling you all fucking idiots.

This feels town and I get this feeling completely. The whole PoE thing is awful, provides great cover for scum who don't have to do much work because 'PoE'.

- Post 309 the "NAI" goldfish, they have clearly played many many games together, I can see scum cat here not wating to cinriminate herself to strongly by scum reading Goldfish but keeping the lynch open by not townread her.
-

No genuine scumreads all game, she's basically coasted and only effort posted when poked, classic

No interest in actually solving the game just saving her own skin.

- I've read some of town cat's games and I think she puts more effort into game solving when that's actually her win condition.
- Also process of elimination from town reads.

+1 @bold, good posting.

Time for my gambit - was I interested in who people scum read? Yes.

Did I think everyone would tell the truth? Not at all. I also knew - that with a lot of people town reading me, I had an advantage in making this play.

Four people put forward: Bulba/BBT.

One of you is 100% sheeping me, so I town read you. Which mean either - Spartan, Cat or Flower is second mafia and partnered with BBT.

And Bulba - I haven't scum read you for a while, but you were the perfect candidate for people to vote without any real reason to back it up. The fact that Cat has a large amount of votes - means that is quite possible that he is mafia, and my town read is flawed. But I am confident that at least one of Spartan, Cat or Flower will flip mafia.

My actual town reads: FP, Rad, Bulba

That was interesting, the whole PoE thing was awful but I kind of like it a little better now. Your town read for someone sheeping you is bad reasoning but whatever. Flower is also probably town, stronger town read here now that Flowers has replaced in.

You need to talk about that Rad town read, too.

Unrelated to my response here, there has been a lot of talk about pre-flip associatives and this is an awful way to scum hunt but a great way to further conf bias whatever read you're pushing as town. Anybody doing this needs to stop and evaluate their reads independently. After flips, then you start using associatives.

Juice - is cat the compromise vote to vote with your town block? Cause I feel like you should be voting bbt here, and I'd consider doing that with you, but fp hard vetoes it and all of us have cat as top pick. Is that your thinking?

Talk about why I'm scum?

Also vote Rad WTF.

You not voting is so scummy.

You're someone whose played a decent amount of mafia.
You have two suspects, and you're not voting either,

My thoughts now are that you don't want to commit to your scum buddy Cat and are hoping that the bulba or BBT wagons will take off.

You're fence sitting to save your partner and don't want to commit either way.

Convince me otherwise please.

More good posting

i'm feeling quite lost -- does anyone want to help me out...

for the record I'm fine with voting BBT today

when i came to the point in my reads where i had Bulb & BBT in my PoE i felt like i had a good grasp on the game & now i don't at all!! i like Bulb's responses to my posts. two of my top town reads townread him (Fancy & now, post-gambit, Juice). no one else has had a similarly positive reaction to Cat's posts today (day two). my PoE right now is just BBT which makes me pretty bad &, since i don't really have any scumreads & just PoE to work with, that makes me feel pretty bad!

Can you not do this? Thanks

The bolded comment makes it pretty clear that BBT is town reading Juice for PR related reasons, an experienced player explains this read here unless it’s PR related.

Meaning at this point I’m thinking BBT has picked up on some or all of the Juice PR breadcrumbing so if Juice dies BBT is back in the scum pool.

Skip to day 3 and Juice is alive and has prevented another kill.

So any world where BBT is scum is one where he deliberately as scum chose to not kill the protective. It’s possible but I just don’t think it’s likely it’s far simpler just to assume BBT is scum.

[FancyPants]

Sorry to assume BBT isn’t scum.

[FancyPants]

As for the spartan claim I’m inclined to believe it.
His suspicion of Juice and I when we bring up mass claiming makes him look like a paranoid PR.

Also his attempt at tricking bulbs comes across as genuine. I’m less sure of this read but I think I also have to assume that Spartan is also town.

Therefore in my mind Bulba/Rad and Flowers are the only people who could be scum.

I personally think it’s Rad and Flowers but I need one last question answered by the mod before I can make up my mind.

[FancyPants]

@ MOD

Does this game include multi-tasking for Mafia?

[FancyPants]

Anyway I do have more thoughts but I need the above answered first.

I could be wrong about my analysis and I know I’ve been wrong before but in my defense neither Cat nor Goldfish gave me much reason to get off their wagons.

[FancyPants]

Town
Juice
fancy

Town lean
Flower
Spartan

Null
Bulba
Bbt

Scum
Cat

@Rad what made you want to ISO flowers, last time you posted a read list he was a town lean for you.

This is kinda the first case you’ve ‘started’ on anyone this game.

[FancyPants]

Also

@Spartan, did you get the result ‘Flowers’ visited no one last night OR No result.

It’s important.

[FancyPants]

Ok now I need an answer to the multitask question.

[FancyPants]

I can't get to everything I want to as I'm out at the min.

I don't particularly like it Spartan, but I'm reasonably confident that it's Bulba/Rad so as long as we go for one of those first, I'm happy.

Fancy, scum can multitask. Roleblocker can both block and kill at the same time

Ok so that doesn’t clear Flowers one way or the other.

I’m happy to vote Rad here I think he’s the scummiest of the three independent of the wagons and pairings.
I do want him to answer my question though.

[FancyPants]

I still can't believe you are serious. Tell me if your claim is real so I can vote you

Ok fine day 1 I tracked FP and it gave me no result which makes sense because he was being jailkept by juice.

But day 2 I did track flowers and it did say they didnt go anywhere,
which means if Rad is scum its either not Rad/Flowers or Rad carried out the night kill action night 2.

Bulba can still be scum, but I think they would have given in if they had visited FP night 1 so if bulba is scum I think their partner visit FP night 1.

@FP ^

I like your point about BBT, I was already reading him as town day 3 before the role claims, so that just leaves these 3

Bulba/Flowers
Bulba/Rad
Rad/Flowers

My vote day 3 is either on Bulba or Flowers.

@BBT what do you think about this that your strong town read of Flowers is in a pool of 3 players where 2 are scum?

@Rad out of curiosity why not Rad today?

I think he’s the most independently scummy and I think it’s more likely Juice jailed him then scum targeted him.

[FancyPants]

Last question was for Spartan not Rad.

[FancyPants]

JK supercedes RBer right?

[FancyPants]

Oh no it doesn’t so if we assume Spartan is actually the tracker scum BBT probably has RBer on his team to block Juice.

So the fact that Juice got his ability off would assume gross incompetence on BBTs part.