Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ:

You're being bad and don't know how to read RC or anyone playing RC by proxy. Scum are probably setting you up for a mislynch. If you don't get lost we're not going to stop them if they are.

I find it interesting that you completely switch gears as soon as I start bringing some real opinions on the game to the table.

[LicketyQuickety]

This is pretty much exactly the kind of playstyle I would expect from RC. I think RC is in large part playing the game for you.

I noticed you dodged this one. Not looking good for you Postie.

I didn't respond because that's clearly NAI and quite frankly I'm done with responding to you because my goal is to lynch Eddie and this distracts us from lynching him. You're voting him, so we should be on the same page there. You can fight me after you've helped me lynch my "partner".

Oh, I see. So you are just going to cut me off because IT DOESN'T FURTHER YOUR AGENDA?

Like it makes sense that you wouldn't want to engage with me because that draws attention to you and you want to lead without being seen. I know how RC thinks by now.

[LicketyQuickety]

I haven't heard that RC isn't playing for Postie. Why would RC be playing for Postie? There's a lot more Scum motive for RC to play through Postie than Town motive.

[LicketyQuickety]

Fair enough. Later on, yes. LQ, I want a full reads list from you too.

Why do you want a readslist from me?

[LicketyQuickety]

Votecount 2.2

Marquis(2)

~ Ranmaru, EddieFenix

EddieFenix(2)

~ LicketyQuickety, Postie


Not Voting (9): Davsto, Lycanfire, Gamma Emerald, Cogito Ergo Sum, Marquis, ActionDan, northsidegal, Thestatusquo, Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-18 19:30:00)

[LicketyQuickety]

I think Scum are in:

Postie
Eddie
Marquis
GE
Davsto

I am willing to trust Llama's read on shea.
Cogito is playing pretty far away from being opportunistic as I can think of. I think their hammer is not indicative of Scum because I don't think he would be that stupid.
Ran is just playing really Pro-Town and I have no reason to SR him.
AD has added some killer posts to the game. I would like more activity from him, but beyond that I don't really have any reason to SR him.
North needs to post more. I have no idea what is going on with north in terms of activity but like Dan, North has made some good posts.
Dunn is lurking, but has Town mindset.
Lycan is prolly Town for their well thought out posts.

[LicketyQuickety]

However, I also bring word from Mastina. From Town to OMGLYNCHITWITHFIRE

Town:

ActionDan
Dunnstral
Davsto
northsidegal
Thestatusquo
Lycanfire

Town/Null
LicketyQuickety
Cogito Ergo Sum

Null
Gamma Emerald

Scum/Null
Postie

OMGLYNCHITWITHFIRE
Marquis
Ranmaru

We lynch the last 2 with fire, we win as town cause those are the 2 that are obv scum to her.

I can work with this.

I need you to case Ran. We'll start there.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ, you had Screen as Null/Scum in your #999. Why didn't you vote him?

I didn't like the wagon composition.

[LicketyQuickety]

When did your read on Postie change and why?

IDK when it changed. It changed when i had the idea that it didn't look like Postie was actually playing, but that RC was playing through Postie. Let me go look for the first quote.

Unpopular opinion: I think Gamma's town.

OK, so why do you, Postie, have an unpopular opinion?

This was the fist time I posted this thought ITT.

[LicketyQuickety]

UNVOTE:

Nope, not ready to end the day just yet.

Hey here's the bad unvote I mentioned earlier.

I am concerned that no one is defending Chill. It gives me a bad feeling.

And here's him pivoting. This looks a lot like him getting off a townwagon to look better tomorrow (well, today now I guess). The lack of resistance to the wagon hasn't bothered him until now, even his unvote was just because he was "not ready to end the day just yet". And all the following references to Tchill in his ISO look awful. It reads a lot like he knows that the lynch would end up being on town and is giving enough resistance he can look good tomorrow but actually wants the lynch to go ahead. Weasel wording a lot of the time - he's not arguing that Srceen is town or anything, but he's making a big deal about not doing pre-flips or planning ahead as if Srceen will definitely flip scum. It just all reads really strangely and off. This is why I'm gonna start off the day voting LQ, most likely.

UNVOTE:

Nope, not ready to end the day just yet.

If tchill is a scum read, what more exactly do you want?

I ask this partially in game and partially out of game, because honestly I see stuff like this all the time where people are like "welp, we have 5 days left so we can't hammer." which I think is silly. I've already gotten about as much reading done as I can without flips imo, and I really would just prefer to get some and then go from there.

The only thing I really want before day end is for davsto and ranmaru to finish reading the thread and go from there.

If that's what you meant than carry on.

It has more to do with the fact that there is like zero resistance to this wagon on Chill. That is what I am looking at. Ending day this early is also time wasted.

Again, it seems odd he's touting this as the "main reason" when it wasn't even mentioned at first. It's like he realised that his initial reason didn't look good enough and wouldn't allow him to keep resisting voting until day end so had to come up with something else to save face.

If it was the first time I talked about wagonomics ITT, you might have a point, but it wasn't. I talked about not liking the Marquis wagon due to wagonomics. Also, from what you quoted, I thought I had mentioned something earlier than that about not liking the Chill wagon. You should go back and check that.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ: What was your read on Postie at that time?

I can't say what my read was at the time I made that post. I was in large part in transition on my read of Postie. As such, it is really very difficult to say if I was TRing or SRing Postie at that time. But consider when you were Town in a game (not going to ask you based on this game because IDK if you are Town this game or not), and had just noticed something Scummy about a previous TR of your that you had: did you all the sudden say "Wow, they are Scum!" OR was it more of a progression? See, that is why progression matters and is Townie: because it's just how people change their reads more often than not and Scum on average are more opportunistic in who they SR so there is not as much progression. So if you look at my read on Postie going from TR to SR, you will see that I did have progression, and the post we are talking about is a big key factor to that.

[LicketyQuickety]

Why do you feel Postie is bussing Eddie in White Flag?

This is a read that has kinda changed for me overnight (like while I was sleeping, not night phase). I don't think I want to limit Postie to just bussing anymore. The thought process that I had before is that I had to ask myself: what if RC and by extension, Postie, is bussing Eddie? What does Postie gain by that? Well, consider the context of what Postie was saying at the time. Postie was pushing Eddie when really no one else was. Because of this, if Postie is bussing Eddie, then that would gain Postie MASSIVE Town cred if Eddie did end up getting lynched. So while Scum would be down a buddy in a game where only 2 Scum out of 3 need to be lynched, because of how much Town cred RC and by extension what Postie would get, they could manipulate Town for the rest of the game to pull off a Scum victory.

These kind of what if scenarios are what come to me a lot when I am reading a player like RC.

[LicketyQuickety]

Also, are you saying you read Postie as town at some point? If so, when?

If you don't know that I was TRing postie at one point in the game, then it shows that you haven't looked at my ISO very carefully.

[LicketyQuickety]

Quote or link it for me, I am mobile.

Quote what?

[LicketyQuickety]

Your read on Postie during D1 that you refer to in your #1377.

I think the only read you will find me giving explicitly close to the point that I made the post where I made a comment about Postie acting uncharacteristically by stating they had an unpopular opinion is in the first reads list I gave.

I don't get this obsession with my read on Postie. What purpose does this serve?

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ: You state in your #1351 that you first realized RC was playing through Postie in your #324. Yet your reasoning for voting Postie in your #1210 is that everything Postie writes is scripted by RC for her, which you already noticed in your #324. So the question is, why do you vote Postie so late in the day if you have already noticed RC being scripted since your #324?

IDK about how you play as Town, but for me, I need a lot of time to contemplate my reads as has been demonstrated by my play in this game. There is a lot going on in this game besides my sole focus on Postie. There are a lot of things I have to consider besides the simple question "should I vote Postie or not?" This game is not as simple at looking at a single slot to decide if you want to vote them or not. I had

suspicions

that that is what was going on with Postie, but I was not 100% confident in that read and this is a read that is still developing. At the time I voted Postie I knew it was a vanity wagon because I knew Screen was going to be lynched. I didn't feel comfortable voting Screen given the massive lack of resistance to his wagon. This shouldn't be very difficult to put together. My POV should be viewed as valid as a Town POV. Given how Screen flipped Town, people are going to be hard pressed to prove that my motivation for being reserved about the Screen lynch was Scum motivated. It would be very difficult to make that case in my estimation.

I considered voting GE, but that didn't feel right. I considered voting Marquise, but that also didn't feel right considering that would make me look really opportunistic. I knew there was literally zero way Llama or shea was getting lynched so those votes would be meaningless and would just make me look like a fool. Voting Postie was a stance I made to signify to say "I see some people have been looking a bit at Postie, but no one is voting there." You could say in some sense of my POV I was saying there was a lot of resistance to people voting Postie even though there was some suspicion for Postie from multiple players.

If you seriously are still considering that me voting Postie was Scummy, then you haven't looked hard enough at the evidence.

[LicketyQuickety]

I am concerned that no one is defending Chill. It gives me a bad feeling.

And here's him pivoting. This looks a lot like him getting off a townwagon to look better tomorrow (well, today now I guess). The lack of resistance to the wagon hasn't bothered him until now, even his unvote was just because he was "not ready to end the day just yet". And all the following references to Tchill in his ISO look awful. It reads a lot like he knows that the lynch would end up being on town and is giving enough resistance he can look good tomorrow but actually wants the lynch to go ahead. Weasel wording a lot of the time - he's not arguing that Srceen is town or anything, but he's making a big deal about not doing pre-flips or planning ahead as if Srceen will definitely flip scum. It just all reads really strangely and off. This is why I'm gonna start off the day voting LQ, most likely.

I skipped over this post because there wasn't much relevant to me but Something_Smart says that the part where you accuse LQ of scumpivoting is a pretty bad accusation as it's one of LQ's more redeeming posts.

Completely agree. What I was thinking is along the lines of something mastina said in an article regarding how Scum say things that are possible, but not probable. The meaning behind this is that it is difficult to determine if Davsto is trying to feed a lie or whether he is simply mistaken in his interpretation of my play. I have not played much with Davsto and last time I played with Davsto was years ago and I don't even remember the game except to say it was a role madness game where I day viged MarioManiac D1 where he was some buffed up SK and Town won that game. I remember literally nothing of Davsto's play or how competent of a player he is so I have essentially zero meta on him so I am more or less starting from scratch on Dav.

[LicketyQuickety]

RC says to get off LQ and that LQ is just bad town with ego issues

(But also that if LQ stops voting Eddie at any point he'll stop defending LQ)

I 'on't give a fuck. I do what I want.

And to say I am bad Town is laughable, seriously.

[LicketyQuickety]

So, Eddie Meta. First to note is that I'll be referencing this post a lot as it's a good sum up of Postie's claimed town- and scum-meta re:Eddie.

First thing to note is that, while the chosen games are from last year (which initially concerned me with regards to cherry picking) they are indeed the two most recent (substantial) games Eddie has played in. This is also a general comment that I'm fairly happy with their assessment of their two games. I don't think the difference is as blindingly obvious as painted, however. Also, I will note that his TBD play (scum) becomes a fair bit more like his Night and Day (town) play as the game continues, which muddies the whole thing a little for me.

Now, the other games:
Paint Mafia Mania (SCUM) - while more recent than the other two, this game is the reason why the qualifier "substantial" is in the paragraph above - an entire 9 posts, due to a personal situation ("unforeseen life stuff"), a fast moving game, and eventual replace out. So, while largely it could be NAI (as pretty much all could be equally explained with the lack of full engagement with the game due to being behind), I do notice even in this tiny sample that a fair few of Postie's meta-indicators are present.
Hunger Games II (SCUM) - this is a hydra game with Bulbazak (to find Eddie's posts, use Ctrl+f and search "-Fenix", as he signs all but his first post with this). Another of Postie's points is here - a very small number of reads. Pretty much the first half of Eddie's posts refer to a single player (Creeps). And yep, a lot of questions which aren't followed up on, and.. yeh you get the idea. I was honestly expecting to have a fair bit to argue against Postie with but... this is pretty much as they say. I'm almost disappointed.
Team Mafia 2015: Mod Error Mafia (TOWN) - four posts, nothing to see here.
Team Mafia 2015: 8:4 Vanilla Nightless (TOWN) - this one's a teeny bit more ambiguous, as there are a few early posts where questions aren't followed up on and a smaller number of players are engaged with. But who am I kidding - this is quickly resolved, questions are followed, he gets mulitple more reads quickly, his posting is indepth and lacks fluff.

Dammit Postie, when you're right, you're right.

VOTE: EddieFenix

You are still assuming that 2 fucking games is enough for a meta read. News flash: it isn't.

[LicketyQuickety]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

Why on earth would any Scum EVER give evidence that was as easily refutable as this? That is like ASKING to get strung up. Put another way: do you really think RC is that sloppy?

[LicketyQuickety]

CES, I want two more scum reads.

Eddie is the other big one. I don't particularly care about meta with Eddie; he just posts these long walls that have no absolutely no forward motion in them. Going 30 pages without voting on Day 1 is also something I can't recall seeing from Town (conversely, I know that that sort of thing happens to scum - they unvote at some point and then have a tough time finding a natural point to go "I'm confident enough to vote now"). The main thing that gives me pause is that I don't really trust Postie.

My second tier of scum reads is Postie and Gamma Emerald; I'll just comment on Postie for now since I need to get a good night's sleep. I'm not fond of Postie's early game, a lot of which feels like it's more at looking good than actually scumhunting - #446 is the clearest example of that to me; if you look at it superficially, it's "hey, in-depth questions! good!" but it's so overboard as to be counterproductive. When I read that post, I expected none of the questions in it to receive answers - as far as I can tell, that is in fact what happened and Postie also didn't follow up. I have a harder time judging her play since the Eddiepush started - I agree with the gist of it, obviously, but it seems like an easy thing for Postie to focus on regardless of alignment.

This is the first post by CES that I haven't liked. What I don't like about it is how far away from Occam's Razor CES is getting with their read in Postie. It's not the sort of thing I would think a competent player like CES would be looking at where there is a whole bunch of more obvious stuff to draw suspicion on.

[LicketyQuickety]

This looks more like comparing his play to what Postie has said of his meta rather than to what you perceive as his meta

I'm not hugely great with meta, and this was as much to help guide me as to Postie's alignment as it was Fenix, so my aim was to check if Postie's points seemed valid for the games she listed (they did) and to use that as a jumping off point to look at other games and compare. It looks like that because it sorta is, but when someone's already done a pretty comprehensive list of meta tells what do you expect me to do? Ignore them and find silly obscure ones?

And also, why don't you throw in TBD and N&D and see which one is less incongruous with it's respective alignment's meta?

Because on a look through neither seemed particularly incongruous, and I see no point in putting a lot of time into a post which would literally just be "yeh so it's pretty much mostly as postie says tbh", if that makes sense.

Why on earth would any Scum EVER give evidence that was as easily refutable as this? That is like ASKING to get strung up. Put another way: do you really think RC is that sloppy?

I've had scum!RC attempt to have me lynched on poor meta before so, uh, yeh.
And even if I didn't think so, what's the harm in being thorough and making it clear to the game that the meta read does go beyond just two games? I'm really struggling to understand your objections here. As in, it feels a lot like you're just objecting to anything you can without really considering it.

What I am saying is that even in the case that Posties Meta on Eddie is accurate, this doesn't automatically make Postie Town, which seems to be what you are assuming.

I'd like you to link where RC used incorrect meta to try and lynch you.

[LicketyQuickety]

Like, I literally, in that very post, right there, continued the metaing to two other substantial games. Two plus two is four. Two games isn't enough. Four, with two town and two mafia, is.

You have 2 games really. One of the games has like 4 posts and the other is a Hydra game, which is not equatable.

[LicketyQuickety]

right now I think I'm at

What is this?

[LicketyQuickety]

right now I think I'm at

What is this?

Yes I know it's not explicit here but it also just keeps feeling like you're scum who's forgetting how you're supposedly to be currently treating me (A: player who you know is town and are treating like town, B: someone who you've made sure to reinforce in-thread multiple times things like "he could be scum guys!" "don't forget while marquis is posting that there is no reason to townread him!" and qualifying what amounts to basically setting me up for an easy mislynch/wagon you can join as "oh but i never said i scumread him ")

Don't insult my intelligence. I asked the question for a reason.

[LicketyQuickety]

Marquis has been the most underwhelming player in this whole game. If Marquis wants to insult my intelligence I can do that too.

I find Marquis' reads completely uninspired and lacking any kind of original thought whatsoever. Furthermore, I think all Marquis has going for them is their charisma. She is just so blah and just basically there. The fact they are so wrong on me I see as more Scum motivated than Town motivated. I play with Marquise in my first newbie game so Marquis has reason to believe I am an easy lynch. IDEK what Marquis is looking at in my play that tells her that I am Scum. It's just a lot of pandering, in fact, that's the way I see all of Marquis' reads.

[LicketyQuickety]

Marquis I probably don't need to tell you this but you are really out of touch with the game right now
Neither you nor anyone else should be taking your particularly reads seriously when you've barely been playing or reading

for the record this is the very first game i've ever played where i can't just check up on the thread and skim throughout the day like every 30-60 min.

i'm not trying to qualify myself for special treatment because i think me being town is still something that should be coming through in spite of that. which clearly it's not. i know my activity is usually a lot better as town (and to be fair to myself, as scum too) but this is kind of a wakeup call for me. because the only reason i willingly chose this game was because at 12:3-lynch-2 i thought it'd be the easiest option with my reduced activity - realizing now my play is very reliant on role based reading and spec and that's why i often stick to themes.

i even would have switched day 1 if there weren't certain people i didn't want to play with.

and again my inactivity isn't alignment indicative in case someone is still scumreading me for the stupid "lurking" thing. even though i'm very very very much town this game. in the past i very much did (and still do) like to lurk as town when it was convenient for me.

i'm rereading this to make sure it makes sense and that i'm conveying this clearly because it matters to me, and also realizing that's not at all what you asked/said, but i typed it up anyway lmao.

Pretty much everything you say we pretty much just have to believe you or not.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ, what is your read on CES now?

Also note that LQ didn't follow up with a reason. He dropped it without explanation.

You ask a question like you are trying to sort me and then drop this "LQ didn't actually have a reason for asking that question, he just said he did to look Town."

I want an answer from Marquise what that post was before I give away what I was thinking, but I will say what I was thinking after Marquise answers.

[LicketyQuickety]

Marquis has been the most underwhelming player in this whole game. If Marquis wants to insult my intelligence I can do that too.

I find Marquis' reads completely uninspired and lacking any kind of original thought whatsoever. Furthermore, I think all Marquis has going for them is their charisma. She is just so blah and just basically there. The fact they are so wrong on me I see as more Scum motivated than Town motivated. I play with Marquise in my first newbie game so Marquis has reason to believe I am an easy lynch. IDEK what Marquis is looking at in my play that tells her that I am Scum. It's just a lot of pandering, in fact, that's the way I see all of Marquis' reads.

Pretty much everything you say we pretty much just have to believe you or not.

i never insulted your intelligence.
iirc you identified me as scum that game and got me lynched, not you. you've played with me more besides.
while i don't expect you to be able to read me perfectly each time it's certainly not a point i'm putting in your favor that you supposedly find almost every single one of my posts "non-town".
and the potshots at me whenever i actually have the time to be here and make the effort to try to solve things only look like you trying to shut me down, and keep me in the same low-involvement state that scum would probably relish. not for my skill as a player but for my (past-ish) ability to be an active+loud town voice in the game.

You don't even know how you insulted my intelligence or you are Scum. that is the only think that can be concluded.

You played off my question to you like it didn't mean anything. Look I can see how it looks like that to people that don't think that deep. But honestly ask yourself if, based on to the extent I have gone to articulate myself, whether it's actually realistic to think I just did something incredibly stupid by asking a question that does nothing or not. Hint: I talked to Ran about my read on Postie, that should clue you in if you are thinking. Another hint: I asked someone who was ISOing me (I think it was Llama) to look at whether what I did was internally consistent or not.

I have not played with you more than that game, I would remember because that game had a lasting impact on me. And no, I didn't lynch you that game. I was lynched D1. I called you Scum in my final post but I didn't get you lynched, Blankface and yzzxxabc (whatever their name is) did. That game had a lot of replacements so I can hardly be credited with lynching you even if I did have an influence on the game besides failing horribly in my first game and getting made and idiot of.

And again, you underestimate me greatly.. I have said and now I am repeating in different words for the third time: I don't have a reason to TR you and this is not the same think as SRing you. I am leaning Scum on you because I have no reason to TR you. Believe it or not, I have a pretty good nose for TRs.. that's why I wasn't on the Screen lynch. With you I see NO POSTS WHATSOEVER that I can look at and say "Yeah, this is a Town post."

And let me ask you: do I come across like a charismatic guy who knows how people think really well? If I do, you are deluding yourself. I would probably never implement a strategy to decrease motivation of a player like that.. It's too specific for me to do something like that.

And I am not using meta AT ALL to read you.

I have played with you ONCE in my first game. I do not remember a single other time we have played together. I would have remembered because that game was so impactful to me and I would most certainly remember the first IC I played with. I also remember you played as Cho. I also remember that you said it was an alt when I had no idea what that was. all these little things help me remember who you are.

I don't remember you play that game other than a time where you at slipped and posted as Marquis to give a simple "Nope!" and a naked vote to vote accountant.

It's my estimation that you are trying to use some charismatic BS to pacify me by boosting my ego when you say I lynched you.

If you continue to post things that I can't read as Town, I am going to continue to SR you.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ: I still want your reasoning for your CES read.

Why do you keep asking me what my reads are? Are you trying to sort me based on my reads or what? How does me giving my read on CES help you get a read on me? What could I possibly say to you about my read on CES that would make you consider I am Town? There is a very apparent pattern of you asking me a question and then like one or two posts later doubling down on your SR of me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Marquis has been the most underwhelming player in this whole game.

and given how much you like to talk about me this is just straight up a lie for the purpose of justifying a scumread on me after the fact.

i think even purely objectively my play as of late has been much more present and probably accurate, compared to like, idk, inactiondan.

so @ all now - stop letting scum!LQ perpetuate this myth that "marquis isn't here and when marquis is here his reads mean nothing because marquis wasn't here earlier".

particularly @ postie too since you basically said it outright yourself.

it's not. Who else has more underwhelming content? Everyone else has had at least one non-generic cookie cutter thing to say this game. You have not.

[LicketyQuickety]

what she thinks I should be doing if what I'm doing is so wrong earlier

i think if you're town the way you look at mafia is too by-the-book and you see things that scum obviously would not do and that town are more realistically likely to do, as things that scum would actually do.
i think if you're scum you think this is how to look town because this is a method of playing it safe.

@all again i have a certain limit for how much "too scummy to be scum" i can apply to a read and still be able to take it seriously. and it feels like almost every time i step back into this game gamma is intent on ringing that bell and adding onto the count. it's literally so often it's uncanny.

the only reasons i'm not voting for him is because other than that i like wagons and have stronger read priorities, i'm a fake and can't keep "too scummy to be scum" in my pants. in terms of settling-on-a-lynch reasons, it tends to be my last resort because i put more stock in that one solitary reason to townread him than i'd like to admit.

I feel like I said basically those exact words you are saying about GE. Thing is, I don't think that fits GE's playstyle at all.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ: You stated you dislike this post: #1458. I'm wondering how that affects your read on CES and what the read changes to.

IDK what my read on ECS is atm. On the one hand, he quick hammered (kinda) and I am almost TRing him for that. Along with that, I've said that ECS has kinda tried to rock the boat a bit more than I would expect from a low content poster, so that is another reason to TR him. But like I said, I didn't like that quoted post that you linked from me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Marquis: I said after your reads post I am feeling better about you. I've explained why I scumread LQ and Eddie in my #1356. So I currently null-town read you, and hope for you to continue the activity. Reason for LQ is my original reasoning, he comes off as playing re-actively rather then proactively. He has no progression of Postie and votes her for being scripted even though he stated that much earlier in D1. His opening play reads almost as desperate as Eddie's, while Eddie's is blatant. Now, why would two players play desperately in a white flag set up? Think about that for a second. Eddie's tone is white and black from D1 and D2. Between funny and malevolent. Why would his tone change? He is showing his true colors, it is not a pro-tone change of tone. I think the reason for their desperate plays is due to town being too townish, which will lock them out via PoE in the future. I can think of no other reason. Ask yourself how a player can believe Postie is bussing Eddie, and push the person she is pushing first, while Eddie does the same thing with myself early D2.

Ideally, you don't want to play reactionary as Town. But that's just how I react to SRs on me. I gave my general view on how how I read people. How am I playing desperate?

And can you answer you you keep asking me questions only to SR me like two posts later?

[LicketyQuickety]

You didn't answer how it affects your read. Please do that.

I talked about that in the post in question. Seriously?..

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ: You told me other reasons why you are reading CES as town, you never said how the post you didn't like affected it. Completed this sentence: "The post I didn't like makes me read CES as ____ now for [reasons]." Also, I still scumread you, and I have been asking more than just you on CES. If I find something questionable from you, I will question you.

I think it should be pretty damn clear that the post I quoted from CES gives me pause on TRing him. Like is that going to completely change my read on him? Should it?

[LicketyQuickety]

You are playing desperate by pushing Eddie (Postie's top scum read) when you scumread Postie, and you state she's bussing. I think both you and Eddie are scum, trying to split wagons, so that you create connections between others instead of each other, which makes sense in a game where scum are discouraged from bussing. I'm shocked that Gamma doesn't see it.

Peddit: Just answer the question instead of dragging this out.

No, I am playing in a way that produces content, which I think gives Town the best shot at winning.

If this is all you are noticing about my play being idiosyncratic, then you haven't been paying too much attention to what I have been doing.

I've made countless moves that very well could be cased as an inconsistent narrative. I am doing this on purpose. I am throwing as many different looks at things that I can in hopes that this get's Town's brain working and starts critically thinking about the game more.

[LicketyQuickety]

Gamma, tell me more about that.

I think he is talking about the last time I played White Flag with him actually. Correct me if I am wrong GE.

[LicketyQuickety]

Gamma

: I should make myself clear. I think LQ is bussing Eddie, to drag down Postie. Eddie votes Marquis while having me as his top scum read, to drag me down. (Postie and I are universal town reads, they are trying to muddy our townieness with their deaths) LQ pushes Eddie, Eddie flips scum, LQ is semi-cleared for pushing since we wouldn't expect people to bus. Both of their reasoning for voting Eddie/Marquis are weird, and seem desperate. I think Marq is null-town, so Eddie's push on Marq doesn't seem like a bus. Go back and re-read the beginning of D2. Notice Eddie only focusing on my

catchup

and none of the rest of my play. Notice both their votes, then tell me what you think of their votes. Please look at them again. I'm coming from a mindset where I don't know what to expect, this is my first White Flag.

What do you make of this post:

You are playing desperate by pushing Eddie (Postie's top scum read) when you scumread Postie, and you state she's bussing. I think both you and Eddie are scum, trying to split wagons, so that you create connections between others instead of each other, which makes sense in a game where scum are discouraged from bussing. I'm shocked that Gamma doesn't see it.

Peddit: Just answer the question instead of dragging this out.

No, I am playing in a way that produces content, which I think gives Town the best shot at winning.

If this is all you are noticing about my play being idiosyncratic, then you haven't been paying too much attention to what I have been doing.

I've made countless moves that very well could be cased as an inconsistent narrative. I am doing this on purpose. I am throwing as many different looks at things that I can in hopes that this get's Town's brain working and starts critically thinking about the game more.

Also to say Eddie and I are playing in a way to "drag people down" is not a strategy I am familiar with. What makes you think it's likely Scum get that creative with how they approach the game? Seem's unlikely to me. You also have to account for Eddie and I doing the same exact strategy, which looks good on paper I suppose, but is actually pretty unrealistic to think Scum normally operate that way considering the oddness of the kind of play we are talking about. This is different than Kain and I bussing (which wasn't actually bussing but distancing) because bussing (or distancing) is a pretty common strategy. What you are suggesting is that we are playing the game in a way to influence the moral of players, which is far less common.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm going to sleep Gamma. Just check this post: 1305 to see at the time, Marquis was my only lead at the time, but I was re-reading to find better ones. I didn't think my read on Marquis was strong enough. In my #1356 I still scumread Marquis, still haven't posted, but LQ and Eddie out prioritize him, because they seem more suspicious. Then in my #1479 I state I feel better about Marquis after he posts content that seems similar to my mindset. Please let me know which alignment you think would be desperate at this point in the game. Night.

You keep talking about how Eddie and I are desperate with nothing to back it up but a hunch and you talk about it like it's fact.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm heading out rn but it's hilarious how you couldn't possibly misrepresent my play any harder lol. It reeks of desperation

Tempted to vote switch again but gonna hold off
Feels like a bunch of people are ignoring LQ too and are just letting him exist without an opinion on his posts

I find it highly ironic that Marquis uses the same wording to describe Eddie's play, which is to say that it is described as "desperate".

[LicketyQuickety]

And for all your emotion and over-the-top tone re: your supposed scumread on me, it's incredibly difficult to believe it's genuine when this read came from mastina. In other words I flat out don't believe the read on me is genuinely that strong when you only even switched focus to me because of one of mastina's random-ass "readslist"s. It feels way more like you know you have to stick to me as an only viable alternative to your mislynch... other than your scumpartner LQ.

Why are people talking so much about teams at this point. I mean I know why - because people have done it in this game and gotten away with it so people just keep doing it.

Stop, it's not helpful.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'll explain my GE scum read now. The main thing is that he seems much too concerned with whether his votes seem justified or not; as town you know you find people suspicious and you can vote for them, it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. #703 is definitely the worst offender - the actual case thing seems to consist mostly of him throwing slushy snowballs at Tchill and although he apparently thinks it's good enough to justify his vote, there's no sign he wants to encourage anyone to read any part of it. And there's lines like "Given that and the fact Something_Smart is telling me not to trust you, I feel comfortable with this." in #256 which just sounds so awkward to me, as if there's some bar that must be met before he's allowed to vote Shea. The amount of time he's spent not voting matches up with this too. (The vote on Marquis earlier Today was a welcome exception but I'd like to believe that could be a sign of a GE-Marquis partnership.)

Eddie, what do you personally think about Ranmaru? (I'm not interested in Mastina's opinion.)

I mean I feel my Marquis vote today is the time I was most worried about my vote being justified? And I am trying to not wave my vote around (vote movement wise, I agree that I should be pushing my reads more but honestly haven't really felt the need, once I develop a solid grasp on the current gamestate I'm fairly certain that will change however) because I'm trying to not look stupid this game. I'd like to play with some of these people in the future.

Yeah, but you unvoted Marquis for weak reasons I think.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ, this is what I think. If you are town, you are playing in a way that causes confusion and wasted posts when we could move on with other things. If you are scum, you are being easy to read as scum and using that as an excuse so you can survive, except being excessively reactive. Having a progression that you don't remember, is an issue. Voting Postie, while throwing shade at Screen play and being off his wagon, seems like scum. If you are Town, I want you to stop this reactionary play. It's not helping us find scum if you are town. If it is helping you, please provide the results now. Also, your entrance post for Day 2 is bad. You are pushing Postie's scum read, while voting her on gut. That's not enough for a read. Essentially if you are town you are being a distraction. Also, Postie is town. If you town read me, why not discuss the read with me?

Where did I throw shade at Screen? I don't remember doing that. I remember questioning some of the things he said like I have been doing with everyone except a few players. You'll notice I do actually question a lot of what the active players say and poke holes in what they say. I do this on purpose because it's my belief that Town has a better chance of winning when there is not really a monopoly on information so to speak. When people start believing things that are unlikely is when Town loses. Furthermore, I don't think this really confuses Town, but makes them contemplate what is said by other players which I think is ONLY a good thing.

What are you talking about with regards to having a progression I don't remember? I have no idea what you are referencing.

Also, as far as my play as Town goes, I feel it's worlds better than being single minded in my interpretation and approach to the game. This is just how I play and I have a good Town record so it's YOU who have to show how what I am doing is detrimental to Town and not the other way around. I haven't seen anyone else complain about this so you are the person with the burden of proof here.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ

: Is RC bussing in every game the basis of your read on Postie?

I've talked about my basis for my SR of Postie before. All you would really need to do is ISO me and search for "Postie" I would assume to see why I am SRing Postie. That read is waning, however.

[LicketyQuickety]

Votecount 2.5

EddieFenix(5)

~ LicketyQuickety, Postie, Thestatusquo, Davsto, Cogito Ergo Sum

LicketyQuickety(2)

~ Ranmaru, Marquis

Marquis(1)

~ EddieFenix

Cogito Ergo Sum(1)

~ Lycanfire


Not Voting (4): Gamma Emerald, ActionDan, northsidegal, Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-18 19:30:00)

[LicketyQuickety]

OK, so what I am seeing here is pretty much the same type of thing that happened to Chill and Screen, namely, that there is a single wagon with very little resistance and not really any other wagons to speak of.

I got what I wanted out of the Eddie wagon, so it's time to move on.

I'm going here to see what happens. I have some shallow reasoning for this vote, but it's more just to see what happens:

VOTE: Ranmaru

[LicketyQuickety]

We're mid day 2.

No, we are not. We are like 3 days into D2, I would hardly call that the midway point.

[LicketyQuickety]

We're mid day 2.

No, we are not. We are like 3 days into D2, I would hardly call that the midway point.

This is really what you feel like commenting on?

Yes, I feel like commenting on things that are blatantly untrue. Why is that a problem?

[LicketyQuickety]

Do you have literally no concept of how colloquialism works?

I have some concept of the that, yeah, but it's not my strong suit and I think that stops when logic takes over.

For example, I can ask myself "What motivation is there for Shea to say this? As Town? As Scum?"

Catch my drift?

[LicketyQuickety]

Are you honestly accusing me of having the dastardly scum plan of hoping that people don't realize that 3 does not equal exactly 7?!?!

Is that legitimately what you think is happening right now?

Did I say that is what is happening now?

[LicketyQuickety]

Ran, talk to me about Marquis. Why are you reading her as Town?

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ

: When you said 'does anyone notice he's shying away with his scumread on me'. Your play has made me question why scum would continue to put themselves in the spotlight, and I feel most of your posts drown out the good gems hidden within. On a re-read, I have noted even more good posts. With regards to the progression, you state you don't remember when your read on Postie changed, yet you had her as null in your #999 and didn't expect for her to change, but then you voted her at the end of Day 1. I think you are town. In addition to the posts I said were good, your posts don't seem to have scum motivation. (To survive) I now understand that the way you are voting seems to be your 'thing'. That was another big problem of mine initially, as Postie states. I don't think scum!You would do that. Reads list incoming.

Now, I ISO'd you, to see, and your #1380 is the closest I can find to answering this question. So I can see it as possibly close to what RC said, still not exact though. Even so, I think that helps me understand your push on Postie in the beginning as well.

Unvote

By the way.. I think you were originally asking me where I TR Postie? Look at the beginning of my ISO for that stuff. The post I quoted for you was the first post I made that shows I was debating that Postie could be Scum. So that post was a post I made that shows progression on Postie.

[LicketyQuickety]

I've already explained that, you can find that in my posts above. Talk to me about Lycan or Shea.

Your reason for TRing Marquis seems a bit thin. Like it looks more like you are saying "These are reasons not to SR Marquis" but I don't see a whole lot of "This is why I TR Marquis." Know what I mean?

[LicketyQuickety]

It's the morning so little time to post anything other than briefly

Ranmaru - just so you know, I think 1631 breaks several rules so like, maybe a good idea for you to get some final reads out before you get force replaced

LicketyQuickety - you've completely blanked my 1539 which was a response to one of your posts and therefore directed squarely at you and that's baaad. You've gone through many of the posts around it, why did you ignore that one?

I didn't see the point to continuing the conversation. I will say I thought it was pretty apparent that you DID say you TR Postie for what they did, but I haven't gone back and looked.

OK I went back and looked and found this:

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

If this isn't saying you TR Postie because of the meta read on Eddie, IDK what does.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ: Why are you still voting me, and why haven't you talked to me about Lycanfire and Shea?

I am still voting you because I wanted to see who if anyone would follow along. A lot happened ITT after I voted for you. I am thinking my vote didn't cause too much change in action, but it could have done something for someone. I noticed that people didn't really make Eddie a focal point after I voted you, which I thought was both weird and appropriate considering Eddie hadn't posted in a while. At the same time, I found it weird because what was being talked about after I voted you was completely different to what was happening previously. Take for example you switched from voting me to voting Shea. IIRC all of your SR's changed after I voted you. I am not saying necessarily that my vote on you caused this, but it could have, if you are Scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

It's the morning so little time to post anything other than briefly

Ranmaru - just so you know, I think 1631 breaks several rules so like, maybe a good idea for you to get some final reads out before you get force replaced

LicketyQuickety - you've completely blanked my 1539 which was a response to one of your posts and therefore directed squarely at you and that's baaad. You've gone through many of the posts around it, why did you ignore that one?

I didn't see the point to continuing the conversation.

Why not, especially since there was a question literally directed at you (which I may note you still haven't answered)?

I will say I thought it was pretty apparent that you DID say you TR Postie for what they did, but I haven't gone back and looked.

OK I went back and looked and found this:

If it seems like I'm a little annoyed that's because I somewhat am because if that meta had been obviously wrong then I'd have the Postie slot down as scum easy peasy bam and that would be one of my biggest troubles in this game shut down

But even with that and even if Fenix flips red, Postie could still be scum because she's being guided by RC and we all know he's rather bus-hungry

Don't get me wrong, that good meta has definitely put Postie on a townread for now and I'll probably not be actively scumhunting the slot for a couple of days (especially if Fenix flips red) but still I've got to play the game with such uneasiness

If this isn't saying you TR Postie because of the meta read on Eddie, IDK what does.

Yes but it also

very

clearly says that I'll still be uneasy about the slot and that the townread is far from certain (i.e. the entire second line and also fair parts of the first and third) and the way you originally said "automatically makes postie town" made it sound like it was a confident town read or me saying "yep postie is for certain town", which even a basic read of that post shows it isn't. All I've been saying is it's giving me a bit more of a grounded read in a player I'm uncertain about.

I had to reread the post to see what question you were asking me. I think just as playing as Scum has an effect on the psyche, so too does playing with someone in the same game. From what I have seen, you have 2 games there they played as Scum.. I don't think that is enough to base a meta read on plain and simple.

[LicketyQuickety]

Well yes, I'm not blind.

As far as a read list goes, it's precisely the same as the last I gave except move CES to the town column.

Thus the not-town column reads as such: "Dunnstral; Marquis; GE" with the caveat that I haven't formed a complete read on GE.

To signal where I stand with both wagons mainly, but if my opinion is worth anything, perhaps slow the roll a tad and maybe even give people a chance to question me about the reads.

bleah what makes you think this team is valid? I feel like my interactions with Marquis aren't very smart as w/w

This defence is weak sauce. It doesn't matter what teams look like until we get a red flip.

[LicketyQuickety]

Davsto, can I have a readslist?

In vague order from scum to town (I say vague because especially when you get to the nuller parts it's hard to really differentiate)

Ranmaru - didn't particularly like the sauce slot D1 but posts have been substantial and detailed and just, well, not at all scumlike
TSQ - while I recognise some of the points made by some others, I don't agree that they make him particularly scummy and overall townread him fairly strong
Postie - I got fair townvibes from them before they got all RCed up, and while the RC is throwing up my reads one thing I recently noted is she seems to be implying to have a fair few reads differing to RC yet is pushing her alternative. I feel that scum!Postie would be a

lot

more dependent on RC than she is being right now.
----- here is the point where townreads are more nulltown -----
northsidegal - I didn't like her D1 posting but she's picked up today and seems pretty okay.
Lycanfire - too few posts for my liking but gets a little town edge in due to me really liking a couple of their posts
----- this is the null line. On it is CES and Marquis, as their posts have just left too little of any impact for me to even really remember them tbh -----
ActionDan/Dunnstral - both around the same because I read them similarly - very few posts and nothing really substantial or decent in any of them enough for me to justify null, but also nothing ringing alarm bells for me to call scum
Gamma Emerald - a bit more townposty recently but still not really made up for a lot of very scummy posting from my view
----- this is the line where nullscum (above) because a scumread -----
LicketyQuickety - a fair amount of bad, bad posts with a lot of flawed logic and stuff but then again I have heard he has a habit of playing "illogically". I feel this game has crossed the line from that into "outright scummy" with a lot of the things he's done but some of it could be caused by other things
EddieFenix - I feel I don't really have to explain this anymore but tl;dr scummy play independent of stuff, reinforced by meta.

Probably the safest reads list you could have possibly come up with. Also, you forgot to add Marquis in this Reads List.

It's enough for a vote having a reads list this bad. What I mean by bad is that Davsto isn't making waves, just sheeping the heard.

VOTE: Davsto

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm finding it really hard to take that post seriously when you're claiming I've not put a player in the reads list when Marquis is right fucking there

Why do Marquis and CES share a line when no one else does? Why did you do their reads differently than everyone else?

[LicketyQuickety]

That shows LQ was skimming the first lines rather than actually caring to read the post
VOTE: LQ

This is called a knee jerk vote.

I don't need to read the list in detail to be able to see that Davsto has basically just made a list that most of the players would agree with on average. He has no reads that are unique to him and I find that highly suspect.

[LicketyQuickety]

Yeh I feel that's been a real strong pattern with LQ. He's been really, really overeager to point out mistakes and contradictions without really considering their actual relevance to alignment (the most egregious being that whole "it's not halfway through the day it's only been three days are you trying to mislead us" bs) and also following it up by not actually reading posts because he's so eager to jump. It really feels like a non-town attitude.

Also, LQ, by safe I'm assuming you mean "towny acting players are town and scummy acting players are scum". And I'll agree with that (for the most part - I would argue some of my more null reads are a bit different but I'll concede that my strong town reads and strong scumreads are entirely uncontroversial).
But is it not possible that, for example, I have that readslist because I think the towny acting players are town and that the scummy acting players are scum?

First of all, I never said that Shea was trying to mislead us. Shea never followed up with that when I said very explicitly that I wasn't saying it was necessarily Scummy or Townie in so few words. I will say I do not understand why shea would give false info like that at all as either Town or Scum. It is really very strange to say it's halfway through the Day when it's only been 3 days. I pointed it out because I felt it could be significant. I look at things most people don't even bat an eye at sometimes, deal with it.

I stated very specifically what I meant when I said what I said. But you can go ahead and pretend you don't get it, that's fine with me. But I will repeat it so that you can pretend that you understand now:

I said you are not making waves, following the herd, and playing safe. I view playing this way as Scummy and I have caught Scum playing this way on more than one occasion - it's a fairly decent tell - especially when Scum are not aware that this tell exists. Naturally, I decided to follow this read up with a solid (IMO) vote.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ

: Why didn't you read his list thoroughly? Why do you find him suspect for having non-unique reads?

I started reading what he said about Shea and possibly a player or two after that. I read enough to be able to conclude that Davsto wasn't interested in making waves in this game and instead he was just following the herd. The whole thing about not having unique reads is that it shows that player is more interested in fitting in than giving what could look like a controversial opinion. It's a tell I used to see people using a lot on PerC (where I started playing). While having a bland or otherwise unsurprising readslist doesn't guarantee that that person is Scum, It's something that Scum do FAR FAR more often than Town. Not having unique reads shows no independent thought. Along with this (lacking independent thought) I can't remember what Davsto has said about what reads his team has had which is also a sign that Davsto could be Scum considering most people if they are Town are going to bounce things off their teammates. Especially if they are an extrovert like Davsto is - it's just something I expect someone who already has group think on the brain to bounce things off their teammates if they are Town. Now I am saying I can't remember what his teammates have said about the game instead of saying that Davsto's teammates haven't said anything about the game.

As far as what is fueling my read on Davsto, it's just seeing that he is just sorta... there. He isn't really pushing anything strongly at all. Even when he brought up the point that I didn't respond to his inquiry he ended up just saying "fair enough." "Fair enough" is not a point of contention which is something I would expect Davesto to have with his second strongest SR, me, if he was Town. Like, he has no spine whatsoever. He reminds me of a fish out of water who doesn't really know what to do because he's out of his element. The thing about this is that he really had no choice on what game he was going to play because he was a sub for a team. And that's why I think he is Scum - because he just seems like he is trying his damndest to fit in rather than actually push anything that could be considered "unpopular".

[LicketyQuickety]

And that reminds me that Marquis has yet to answer what that post that I asked "what is this?"

[LicketyQuickety]

And that reminds me that Marquis has yet to answer what that post that I asked "what is this?"

I am just going to assume that Marquis doesn't have an answer.

What I was thinking is that it would have actually been a reason to TR Marquis. With this it's sorta the same deal that someone else said about how Postie clarified something that didn't have any Scum motive to clarify there.

I don't think that is what has happened with Marquis tho because I would have expected Marquis to answer my inquiry if they had nothing to hide. But instead we see not only Marquis, but another player as well make a huge deal out of me bringing this up.

[LicketyQuickety]

What are your updated reads? Why didn't you comment on Ran v Shea / Ran v Lycanfire / Ran v CES?

Why I didn't comment on those things is because I am not sure what to make of it. I don't have a strong opinion on it, in other words. I need time to contemplate that stuff and you have taken that away from me because you have switched your reads back to what they were so it's really not really worth giving my opinion on it even if I had one. But I will anyways since you are asking now.

I will say what you said gave me a lot of pause because I did consider that you could be right (on shea especially). I even had the thought to bring up that I was TRing Shea for kinda a weak reason which was based on a dead player's read on shea. That said, it's still something I think might be valid considering Llama and shea know each other irl so that means they have a better instinct when reading a play they know better than pretty much anyone in the game. In short, on shea especially, I felt too conflicted to really give an opinion one way or another.

I thought it was weird that you brought up something I said about Lycan from much earlier in the game. I can't help thinking something along the lines of "Ok, now that I am voting you you listen to what I am saying.. WTF?" Also, I have a tell that is specific to me regarding things like this that I don't want to give away, but basically, I have reason to SR you for agreeing with something I said way earlier in the game. I haven't read Lycan's latest because it was a wall and I wasn't too thrilled about having to slog through that. My instincts are telling me Lycan is probably just Town because he's said some things in detail that I think would be difficult to fake as Scum. That's a somewhat shallow read, but I lean Town more on Lycan as of now.

IIRC, you didn't really make a very strong stance on CES. TBH, I have found CES post volume to be too little which makes giving a read on him pretty difficult. That said, I still mantain that CES IS making waves and is saying some controversial stuff, which is the opposite of Davsto. And this little thing gives me some reason to TR CES.

[LicketyQuickety]

I went back and read Lycan's post. This guy is so Town - he practically bleeds it.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'd saying you using such rigorous logic is scummy but weren't you the one who made the axiomatic tells thread in MD, LQ?

I have no idea what you are referring to. I don't think I have every really given some of my tells their own thread. I have on occasion said what my Pro-Town Anti-Town lists are.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'd saying you using such rigorous logic is scummy but weren't you the one who made the axiomatic tells thread in MD, LQ?

Read this game, should enlighten you (and other's who read it) quite a bit: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=72693

I didn't think of this game until just now, but it's basically a carbon copy of how I am playing in this game. I use a similar angle to approach the game in that game that I do here. What I can gather from this is that People generally think playing this way is Scummy.

Here's a Scum game I would say also has a similar style to this game and the game I linked: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=71353

You should be able to tell a difference but IDK how subtle it is or if I am remembering how I played in these games well enough.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ seems to have missed Shea and Lycanfire in his reads in his #199. It's interesting because he discussed Dunn and Lycanfire being either town or scum when responding to Eddie. Here in his #267 LQ FOS's Shea for hesitating, and bringing up points and dropping them later. He still believes in it after Shea responds, stating that he's waiting for town to react to his play in his #290. LQ's #598 is a superficial re-evaluation of TSQ after his vote and push. He states that Shea is town via trusting Llama in his #1342. So this shows that his progression isn't genuine, he only cares to make a push on Shea and Lycan to seem town, which he drops at the drop of a hat.

His Lycan read also seems like a superficial re-evaluation. In his #999, Lycan is null, and in his #1342, Lycan is town for well thought out posts. In his #437 he states that Lycan is using colorful wording to create stories for motivation instead of looking at all possibilities. Now you see that, and then see a null read with no progression from LQ, and then it changes to town with the reasoning of 'he has well thought out posts'. There is a disconnect here. LQ's #437 actually seems good, it seems deeper then the superficial re-evaluation he gave, and I think that isn't genuine, it's a farce.

LQ votes Postie in his #1210, while having her as null in his #999. He never had a progression on her before then, no stated town read, and he himself had admitted to not knowing what it was. This comes after I posted a read on Postie being scum trying to seem town. I agree with Davsto that LQ's #1721 was over-eager, and he didn't intend to read the content, but rather just vote him as he glanced that it was weak. My biggest issue is his vote on me in his #1604. He votes me after RC states he'd want me lynched if Eddie is scum. This seems like LQ trying to fish for support on me without really trying to ruffle feathers. His explanation #1682 is that he wanted to see who would follow along, which is a weird way to go about voting a town read. Then he has silence when it comes to his previous reads on Shea and Lycan, which he FOS'd Day 1. It seemed odd that he did not comment during this phase of the day. In general, it feels like LQ is caught scum who continues to live longer then needed, and posts things to push for scum win condition rather then town win condition.

1. LQ's reads are not genuine. He has some good gems, but reconsiders them with superficial thought.
2. LQ isn't reading thoroughly, and snaps quickly to discredit rather then to determine alignment.
3. He has no progression for some of his reads, which shows he is hiding the truth (ie: he has no conclusions, but reads change anyway)

LQ is scum

.

Unvote; Vote: LQ

Actually, pretty much everything you say about

what

I am doing is accurate. It's just the

why

I do it that causes you to SR me instead of TR me. Basically, a good rule of thumb is that I need time to process things. So pretty much any time you see me give a read that is similar but as a different alignment, this is because I have processed what I had been thinking about and it causes me to have a different read on that player. Other people have thought I was Scummy for doing this as well, but as Scum, I tend to be extra vigilant that my reads "make sense" and have good progression. So while, yes, I do reevaluate my reads, a lot of this happens in my head and not itt.

And the fact you are saying I never TR Postie show's that you didn't do what I suggested and looked through the beginning of my ISO. TBH this kinda pisses me off because it show's you are just looking into what you want to. I mean, what do you make of this post regarding Postie if it's not a TR?

I thought you were Scum here: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=64506

Otherwise, was that your first Scum game?

That was my first scum game, yes.

F... first?

VOTE: wgeurts

Haven't seen you play in a while. Hi!

Put it this way:
If you believe Llamarble hasn't found anything and is fishing for reactions, it makes sense to help him out by voting me or pretending you know what it is or even just staying quiet and letting things play out.
If you believe Llamarable really believes they've found something obvscummy, the logical thing to do is to ask what it is, in case it actually is something that makes sense.
You did neither or these things and instead instantly assumed he couldn't have found anything and attacked him for it. In what world does that make sense? In one where you know he can't have a good reason, because you know I'm town.

VOTE: wgeurts

While I ask about clarification from RC on northsidegal things.

p-edit: Nice timing.

What does "full-breakdowny" mean? And yeah, I've been called "accomodating" or similar things as town before. Interestingly, I don't think anyone has ever called me that as scum. Can probably dig you up some meta to show it's NAI.
Re-read Marquis' posts. I'm willing to roll with that.

VOTE: Marquis

Also

Would also like to know whose teammates are reading this game and whose are likely to give input d1

Also bumping this

I missed this. Definitly RC and idk about the rest of my team. Why does it matter?

Let's us know early she's voting weurgts but moves it to marquis shortly after voting weurgts a second time.

The post about the 2 reactions you "should" have pinged me.

If what Postie is saying about themselves as Scum is True, why the fuck does their team put Postie in a Scum role?

Not seeing Scum Postie here and IDK why people are SRing them.

Going here to see what happens:

VOTE: chill

Also, I was pretty damn honest about seeing how things would play out when I voted you, let's be real here.

[LicketyQuickety]

It also pisses me off that Ran is misrepping me for my reason for voting him. Here's the post that I voted him:

OK, so what I am seeing here is pretty much the same type of thing that happened to Chill and Screen, namely, that there is a single wagon with very little resistance and not really any other wagons to speak of.

I got what I wanted out of the Eddie wagon, so it's time to move on.

I'm going here to see what happens. I have some shallow reasoning for this vote, but it's more just to see what happens:

VOTE: Ranmaru

Like, how do you get from this that what doing whatever the fuck you think I was doing based on this post?

I even later touched on what I saw that changed after I voted you in a later post.

WTF, man?

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ

: I see no stated read of Postie in the beginning. I just see a null read on Postie from you in your #598. You should explain your missing Lycanfire read.

This response to my post is... underwhelming. We have been doing this for quite a while. You SR me, I reply to the SR you have on me and try to explain how that doesn't mean I am Scum and is actually something to consider TRing me for, and then you pretty much just completely ignore all that stuff and bring in more of the same and then I reply in the same way and we repeat the process all over again. Like, IDK if you are even thinking about what I am saying in my defence or not. What do you actually think about that stuff? IDK because you never talk about it.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Postie

I think she deserves votes. the way she's stepping back and referencing her teammates just feels scum driven to me

Completely disagree. Your vote should be on GE, not Postie.

Why GE? Postie

feels

like they're too worried about the wording of their post.

IDGAF what something feels like. Feels means pretty much nothing in this game.

If you can say exactly what Postie said that makes you feel that way, and it has some solid backing on it, I'll reconsider. But just stating something feel a certain way means pretty much nothing to me.

And North had the exact interpretation that I mean, and the fact that they are point that out is a decent indication that they are Town.

Ran, this post here you can very easily infer I was TRing Postie at this time. This is based on the use of the word "reconsider" which implies I did have a read on Postie and that it wasn't Scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm finding it really hard to take that post seriously when you're claiming I've not put a player in the reads list when Marquis is right fucking there

Why do Marquis and CES share a line when no one else does? Why did you do their reads differently than everyone else?

Because they're null reads, hence why they're on the null line where it says null

Why create a separate line for Null reads? You could have categorized them both as Null and given them a separate section of their own. IDK why you did it the way you did. This may sound like I am picking at a minor point, but there is a reason for me asking. Basically, I think there is a subconscious reason to put those players on a separate Null line and I want to know what that reason is because the subconscious is involuntary in what it does, hence getting at the subconscious and interpreting what it is saying is the best way to read people because it's literally impossible to hide what is in the subconscious. Why do I think it is subconscious? Because Davsto gave an answer that doesn't really answer anything but basically says it is the way it is because it's the way it is, which doesn't answer the question of why at all.

LQ

: Why didn't you read his list thoroughly? Why do you find him suspect for having non-unique reads?

I started reading what he said about Shea and possibly a player or two after that. I read enough to be able to conclude that Davsto wasn't interested in making waves in this game and instead he was just following the herd. The whole thing about not having unique reads is that it shows that player is more interested in fitting in than giving what could look like a controversial opinion. It's a tell I used to see people using a lot on PerC (where I started playing). While having a bland or otherwise unsurprising readslist doesn't guarantee that that person is Scum, It's something that Scum do FAR FAR more often than Town. Not having unique reads shows no independent thought. Along with this (lacking independent thought) I can't remember what Davsto has said about what reads his team has had which is also a sign that Davsto could be Scum considering most people if they are Town are going to bounce things off their teammates. Especially if they are an extrovert like Davsto is - it's just something I expect someone who already has group think on the brain to bounce things off their teammates if they are Town. Now I am saying I can't remember what his teammates have said about the game instead of saying that Davsto's teammates haven't said anything about the game.

As far as what is fueling my read on Davsto, it's just seeing that he is just sorta... there. He isn't really pushing anything strongly at all. Even when he brought up the point that I didn't respond to his inquiry he ended up just saying "fair enough." "Fair enough" is not a point of contention which is something I would expect Davesto to have with his second strongest SR, me, if he was Town. Like, he has no spine whatsoever. He reminds me of a fish out of water who doesn't really know what to do because he's out of his element. The thing about this is that he really had no choice on what game he was going to play because he was a sub for a team. And that's why I think he is Scum - because he just seems like he is trying his damndest to fit in rather than actually push anything that could be considered "unpopular".

I know it's odd for team mafia but our team has been playing quite independently, at least since I joined. I just realised I haven't read through the PT lmao let me go through anything people have said about the game
- Espeonage told wgeurts to vote postie around page 4, explains a couple of hours later that they think that postie was trying to gather traction for any player they could, and that she wasn't doing so to help read them. Followed on to also say that CES and Llamarble looked alright at that point. Then says CES is definitely town
this is the only interaction with wguerts what with the whole "him-disappearing" thing
- I also recently asked my team in general for help on Postie because I was struggling - Aneninen chipped in to say that her early-game came across as being forced. He also agrees with Eddie-scum due to early game. He also notes a large turnaround in the play of Eddie from D2 that he has chalked down to likely being coaching from his team mafia team, though that is NAI.
Also, how can you accuse me of not really pushing anything strongly when I made that detailed Eddie meta? I'd say I'm definitely the second-strongest pusher there at least. And,, seriously? Me saying "fair enough" is a scumtell? Maybe I just, I don't know, conceded the point because I saw your point of view? Just because I strongly scumread you doesn't mean I will question every point you make, even the reasonable ones.
And as for the not pushing anything unpopular point - that could literally describe half of the game. Is everyone scum if it's such a clear scumtell it justifies voting me for that single post?

Why do I find it unlikely that the defending Champs are not working together at all?

Also, I see you completely ignored the more important point I was trying to make, namely, you are just sorta floating through this game and not really taking any risks at all. I haven't been able to determine if this is because of personality or not yet. I will say that it is completely normal to say things as Town that are Bold and challenging the status quo, and I don't see Davsto doing that.

And most players in the game have at least one read that is unique to them and doesn't follow the norm, I don't see that at all in your readslist. Basically, your strongest SRs are the two players who are most likely to get lynch. That is not all tho, who you have one tier up from that are just people that are essentially just lurkers who haven't really made an impact in this game. Next we have your null line which is another couple of lurkers, surprise surprise. Then you have most of the players who most players TR as Town mostly because they are active, shocker.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Ranmaru, Re: my reads changing with little progression. I have talked about this before on this site, see here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72320

[LicketyQuickety]

@Ranmaru, Re: my reads changing with little progression. I have talked about this before on this site, see here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72320

a lot of the problem is that its not like you really reevaluate, its like you shift from full town reading them to voting them with no warning and no indication that you were ever even remotely thinking of them as someone you might before.

Latest example being davsto.

Yeah, I do the opposite as well and change from Scum to Town reads this is just a part of my play, deal.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ: I have questioned you quite a bit on those points and I have received many reples. They don't satisfy as a response. I'm not interested in following up anymore. I want you to explain your missing Lycanfire read. Saying "I'm going to see what happens" doesn't mean it's the truth and along with your silence on my push at that time, it shows a lot. The time I try to re-evaluate you use that to work against me. I did look through your ISO, actually. I looked for Postie and Lycanfire. Didn't find any sign of town reading Postie, but a null. (Now, if you had reasoning that would imply townie actions of Postie, I could reconsider) So here's the big question: From your 315 and your implied town read you state is a tr, why did that change to null in your #999? (Originally #599)

We have been over Postie so much I have no idea what you keep going over old ground. As I stated before, The possibility entered my mind that RC was basically playing through Postie, which I thought was more Scum indicative than Town indicative. Along with this, I was the FIRST person to point this out and it's pretty much just been accepted as fact in this game, yet I get no credit for discovering this - it shows people have a bias against me. I also was thinking that Postie was bussing because it felt like a play RC would make. This was discussed and RC actually said they TR me for this.

As for Lycan, it's basically the same read, it's just that I have thought through the things I was looking at from Lycan and decided that the detailed posts that Lycan is making is more likely to come from Town. Originally I had him as Scum stating he was "making up stories to fit his narrative to be able to SR people" but then I decided that through the use of Occam's Razor, that the more simple explanation was that he is simply Town for making such detailed posts.

You are treating me as tho if I make a mistake that this means I am Scum. That is a horrible way to SR someone because Town make mistakes like the one's you are trying to get me to do all the time. It's like, If I "get caught" stating something that isn't consistent then it means I am Scum and this is just a terrible way to analyze a player, let's be honest. It makes me think you are Scum due to your method of generating SRs. What's more is that I have had a response to your accusations against me that fit my narrative and yet you still continue to keep me as your strongest SR. I mean like WTF do you even want? I think you just want to SR me because it looks good on paper or something. I am starting to think you read on me is disingenuous because you don't even consider what I say in response to your questions. I mean I would assume if you are asking me questions, it's to try and sort me. This is why I have been tentative to SR you based on you asking questions. But now it seems all the purpose of questioning me is to reinforce you SR of me. Naturally my responses are IMO good so instead of considering them, you just say they are NAI, which, like I already went over, the question must be asked why you are asking me all these questions in the first place.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Ranmaru, Re: my reads changing with little progression. I have talked about this before on this site, see here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72320

a lot of the problem is that its not like you really reevaluate, its like you shift from full town reading them to voting them with no warning and no indication that you were ever even remotely thinking of them as someone you might before.

Latest example being davsto.

Yeah, I do the opposite as well and change from Scum to Town reads this is just a part of my play, deal.

do you try to emulate this as scum?

I thought you didn't agree with self-meta. Why are you asking this question?

To answer, I think I have don't it in the past, but more often than not I try and have my reads "make sense" to Town members so it doesn't look like I am laking progression on people. It depends on the game. As Town, I just care more about constantly looking at things from different angles, so that is why my reads change like this. Ultimately, I would say switching reads like this is a tool I utilize, but it's not one I am constantly thinking about. Also, my perspective in doing this as Scum has more of an agenda, which is that I am usually in danger of getting lynched so I try and make it as hard to tie myself to my teammates as possible. And yes, I am actually pretty damn good at doing this considering I rarely see end game as Scum, but I still have a decent record as Scum. Really tho, much of my game as Scum is about confusing Town if I die. That is why I pull things like cross distancing with my teammates. I also try and make believable pushes on my teammates and it usually doesn't get them Lynched because I am actually horrible at pushing lynches because no one ever believes the reads I have. That's why it confuses Town so bad when I push my buddies - because they don't know what I was doing because my pushes make sense coming from me (at least on my teammates).

[LicketyQuickety]

Why don't you explicitly say that you town read Postie instead of saying 'not scum'? Usually, scum fake reads, to fit in with the town. Your actions line up with this. I don't deny that mistakes can come from town, but they can also come from scum. I am very detail oriented, I look at all the small things, I ask about everything. I weigh everything, and ask myself the town motivation and scum motivation. LQ Scum motivation: Avoid town screen wagon to keep hands clean, drop reads without much reasoning to hide actual reasoning for dropping it, discredit town read players when given the chance (like your push on myself, then Davsto). LQ Town motivation: Do weird stuff because that's what you always do and you are too stubborn to change it. This is why I am asking others that have played with both of your alignments to comment to help my read. At the moment I don't trust your answers anymore. Also, I don't use Occam's Razor. Anyway, it doesn't seem like to me, that you are trying to be accurate with who is scum. You are just floating around, reacting. That's it. Then when I expect a response, you are frozen in time, especially when your reads on Shea and Lycan were weak. You had no intentions of strengthening those reads. To me, this means #267 was all for show. So the question is, do you care about getting your reads right, and if so, how are you doing that? Also, I want your full reads list. I asked for it, you never gave one.

I didn't realize that it was necessary to explicitly state what my read on Postie was at the beginning of the game /s
Seriously, why does this matter? How is my answer going to help you sort me? I keep saying this and you keep ignoring answering this.

Seriously, you are going to have to show some pretty solid evidence for why you think I had more incentive as Scum to be off the Sceen wagon then as Town. I mean, it's like you are not even looking at the actually reasoning for me not being on the wagon OR how I delayed the EOD when I very well could have be lynched because of this. So much for being detail oriented. And there have been some people who have SR both you and Davsto. Tell me why both of you have never had a wagon on you take off. And I do want an answer for this.

And you didn't give a genuine statement about my motivation as Town to do what I am doing. I would have expected you to give me at least some credit for doing what I am doing as Town. It makes it look like there is no way I am Town. It's just biased as hell.

As far as other players playing with me as both Town and Scum, there really are not players who fit this I don't think. North, shea, and GE has seen me play as Scum. Shea, GE, Dunn, Postie, and Marquis have seen me play as Town. I don't think there is a single player who has played with me in more than 2 games. Possibly GE. North has seen me play as Scum twice and I think that is more than anyone, but North died N1 in one of the game so...

I mean, like what incentive do I even have to give you are reads list? It's not like you are going to start TRing me because of it. What's the point of knowing my reads?

[LicketyQuickety]

@Ranmaru, you have single handedly taken most of my motivation out of this game. I get that you are all about the details, but this kind of micromanagement of other players has got to go. Furthermore, I don't feel obligated to do a readlist every damn day.

What I do, and what I need time to contemplate, are precisely my reads. I will make a reads list when I feel comfortable making one. After I make that reads list, I will continue to read the thread and mull things over in my brain to see if I can change my perspective on any of my reads.

But so far I am thinking:

Town

v
Without having looked at a previous game of yours (Ran) I would probably say there is a lot more to back up that you are Town than Scum.
Shea's fervor for the game is also something I am reading as Townie, though tbh, I have seen him play a bit more casually as Town before. That said, in the game I saw him play as Scum he was way more low key than this. Meta reads are shit with that amount of games played with someone, but I will say Shea has also played quite Pro-Town, so that is a good reason to TR him.
GE is a similar read to Shea in both that I see his fervor and general Pro-Town mentality to mean he is Town here (or he could be power wolfing) which is what I would expect from Town!GE.
Lycan is still giving some pretty good points and I can tell he is critically analyzing the game which is a plus and show's he is giving a lot more than most of the other lurkers in this game. I think this is Pro-Town mentality so he is probably just Town.
Postie has kinda dropped off in content these last 5 or so pages, and that is concerning for me. As is, I still think that there is probably more reason to TR Postie than SR them. The one point that Lycan brought up where he quoted me saying Postie's reasons for SR Eddie with regards to the Llama kill is not bad at all however, and that gives me some pause in TRing Postie.
I am also warming up to the idea that one of CES, AD, Dunn, or Noth are Scum. They have not been engaged enough in the game which could mean Scum are feeling ok about the way the game is going/want to keep a low profile so we don't have much to go on with who Scum is. It's remarkably easy to let Town tear itself apart, at least for a few game days.
I am starting to like the idea of Scum!Eddie as well. I agree his behavior change from D1 to D2 is probably far more Scummy than Townie. Also, it seems he is trying to lurk out his wagon, which is a disgraceful way to win a Mafia game IMO.
I also see a few good reasons to SR Davsto, but this could be resolved knowing more about how he approaches the game of Mafia in general.
I am fairly sure Marquis is Scum at this point. Marquis has few if any saving graces for them being Town. The reasoning and/or evidence (or lack there of) for Marquis being Town is severely lacking.
^

Scum

So I think I should put my money where my mouth is, because people don't see to be liking my idea of making actions to produce content over most everything else, so I am going here:

VOTE: Marquis

[LicketyQuickety]

So I'm think the team is among LQ/Eddie/Dunn/Lycan right now from the stuff covered here. Marquis is a suspect as well based on previous events. Current solid townreads are Ran and Shea, plus I'm feeling Postie is town. CES still town. AD/Dave/nsg I haven't sorted, maybe ISOs? Also need to ISO lycan still

Your analysis sucks and your reads suck worse. I played with you in PYP.

[LicketyQuickety]

You're also way to concerned with how people see you when you aren't being heavily SR.

[LicketyQuickety]

So I'm think the team is among LQ/Eddie/Dunn/Lycan right now from the stuff covered here. Marquis is a suspect as well based on previous events. Current solid townreads are Ran and Shea, plus I'm feeling Postie is town. CES still town. AD/Dave/nsg I haven't sorted, maybe ISOs? Also need to ISO lycan still

Your analysis sucks and your reads suck worse. I played with you in PYP.

Alright I remember that one now. Think I shut it out because of crap teammates. Also you gonna drink the haterade with Marq? Cos if so just like I said to her I need some backup of what you're saying. Prove me wrong if you think so strongly of it.

You're also way to concerned with how people see you when you aren't being heavily SR.

You wanna tell me how I'm doing this cos I don't think that's the case here

Lycanfire iso in progress btw, just saw these when previewing to get to the next part of it. Damn does Lycan inadvertently wallpost

The things I am saying are not a given because I am the one saying it.

Your questions are not really good questions to ask. They are all kinda basic type of questions that anyone can ask. Like, what are you actually going to do with your answers? How does this help you read someone? It's similar to Ran asking me what my reads are - just why.. why are you asking? If you know what my reads are and you don't give me the credit to know that I am fully capable of faking reads pretty damn well, then this is pretty much the only reason I can see for Town being concerned with reads.

You seem to be the leading wagon today. tmi...?

Like... seriously, why ask this?

One thing I dislike about how Eddie is playing here is that he doesn't seem to be having the reaction to the wagon on him I'd expect if he were town. If he were town I'd think he'd go raging against his wagon here. Also how is Marquis posting in twilight scummy? Kinda on-the-fence with that rn

Seriously, this is BAD. Especially when I think that was an engagement that I thought Eddie handled quite well. Like what Eddie said that actually makes a whole lot of sense and you are acting like what he is saying is the Scummies thing you have seen. I mean really, way way way more often than not when I see someone say "I think you would do X different as Town" they are so off their rocker they have no idea how inaccurate that kind of tell is. Unless you have really really solid meta on someone, you really should never be saying this. Saying "this person doing this reminds me of when they were X in game Y" is like worlds better than what you are saying and the latter is still a pretty damn weak read without some pretty damn solid meta.

[LicketyQuickety]

I mean...

Slow clap..

You accuse the most SR person in the game to say "TMI?" Really? Really?

[LicketyQuickety]

I mean...

Slow clap..

You accuse the most SR person in the game to say "TMI?" Really? Really?

And if anyone doesn't get this point, please tell me so I can explain it to you like you are 5.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ, it's a good question to ask since you are accusing him of only caring about his image, so you should back it up. I don't see it.

I am not even talking about why he is asking me what I mean. I am talking about what he did in the first place which you completely ignore.

I mean, all you have to say is "Gamma still Town" Like WTF. Either gamma needs to get gud or he need some accusations thrown his way.

[LicketyQuickety]

@GE, Playing the game with the outlook of what you expect players to play as is fallible. Why? Because it would require you to know the person better than they know themselves. How? Because you are stating a predictive type of play of a person. If you have thought that someone would do X as Town, then logically this would mean the player who is being predicted isn't smart enough as Scum to know how they themselves would respond as Town if placed in that situation. In other words, you would be out guessing someone about their own knowledge of themselves.

And that's without the consideration that you are predicting what someone would do AFTER it has been done.

P-Edit: I hope you can take this post as a consolation. I am thinking GE could be Scum here after all. I will look over that PYP game I played with him and see what I can get.

[LicketyQuickety]

Well, Eddie is getting lynched. I'll hammer if I have to.

[LicketyQuickety]

There was no deeper meaning. I felt there was a higher chance of LQ and Eddie being scum together, while I had Marquis as a scum read on the back burner, as I wasn't too confident in it. I'd like for you to look into NSG.

Yup. This is why Pre-Flip sucks eggs.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ

: Why does it mean Gamma scum over Town Gamma to you? We also need to see Action Dan, NSG, and Marquis before we end the day. After that, I'm fine.

Because I can see the perspective that Gamma is just doing a sloppy job of trying to do LAMIST. Like I did leave room in my reads list for this kind of behavior from Gamma as Scum. I can see the perspective that GE is just trying his damndest to look as Townie as he knows how. He's asking questions, but they don't seem to really go very deep. They just sorta seem like a bit of a low standard of play (no offense). It looks more like GE is trying to look town than game solve in other words. I am going to look at that ISO now.

IIRC, he's taken a lot of time to answer questions thrown his way. I don't get how you can be here and make like 5 posts and then once someone asks you something you are just gone for the next hour. it doesn't make sense to me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Okay, so we're on the same page there then. Townreading CES btw
Honestly I think I'm actually in love with white flag now that I'm engaged in playing the setup

I remembered this post for some reason. I don't like it, IDK why.

[LicketyQuickety]

OK, I ran this by mathblade and he said I can say this:

OK, so I looked at the PYP game that I said I played with Gamma. He was Scum, not Town in that game! Thing is, he has a pretty good Scum game actually. Pretty much all his posts look pretty Townie in that game. It's a head scratcher. I mean I can say that GE probably wouldn't shy away from being Scum at least.

[LicketyQuickety]

Yup. This is why Pre-Flip sucks eggs.

Well, you can help us move to the post-flip stage.

Still want to see more from Shea, North, AD, Dunn, Postie, Eddie and you as well.

[LicketyQuickety]

By my reckoning he's got about 55% chance of being scum.

My I ask precisely where you got this from?

I have a specific process to come up with numbers like these - I make them up. Then, after making up a number for everyone, I add up all the numbers and see if they add up to #ofscum - they probably don't, so I start changing the numbers until they do, making sure to think long and hard about how embarrassed I would be if one of my town reads turned up scum whilst doing so in order to keep my confidence in check. The idea is that the triple constraints of math, embarrassment and not wanting to underestimate my confident scum reads will lead to some semblance of truth. It's a bit involved but I prefer it to making reads list in terms of taking stock because I could actually experience how the existence of null reads like Dunn and ActionDan make me somewhat less confident in Marquis and Eddie.

Spoiler: Answer to the inevitable question

Marquis: 60%
Eddie: 55%
GE: 30%
Postie: 25%
Dunn: 25%
ActionDan: 25%
northsidegal: 20%
LQ: 20%
Davsto: 15%
Lycan: 10%
TSQ: 10%
Ranmaru: 5%

Explain your method.. otherwise it just looks like you are making up numbers.

[LicketyQuickety]

a) he did explain his method. b) he admitted that the method involves coming up with rough guestimates of numbers and then tweaking them with different sources of information.

Sometimes its like you're not even reading the posts you're responding to?

A) He did not explain his method, he literally said he was making up numbers and then arbitralily manipulating them. Seriously? What constitutes a number being what it is? That was more my question. What are these numbers based on?

B) Tell me what the numbers are based on if he explained him method.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Shea, what do the numbers actually stand for? That's what he hasn't answered and that is what I think is the most important thing in his whole numbers thing.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think Dunn is the most scummy player in the game after eddie.

Let's hear it

[LicketyQuickety]

If not hammer happens soon, I think it's possible Scum are already on the wagon.

[LicketyQuickety]

note to self to read ces, nsg, dav.

buttttttt not tonight I'm going to sleep now tho

TBH, don't care about reading up.

FUCK ME IN THE ASS WITH A CACTUS
ELLI CHANGED THE RULES ON ME LIKE AN HOUR AGO, WHILE I WAS STILL READING STUFF, BARRING WHAT I JUST DID
BAN ME IF YOU LIKE BUT IF YOU DO YOU'RE A PIECE OF SHIT FOR CHANGING THE GOALPOSTS

Agreeing with this sentiment. -walks away-

You two both suck something fierce.

[LicketyQuickety]

postie, how about you play the game you signed up for and tell rc to suck eggs?

How you gunna say I am dropping things when I say something that makes sense you completely fail to further the conversation? Like are you still Scum reading me? Why or why not? Otherwise it just looks like you are throwing shade honestly.

[LicketyQuickety]

postie, how about you play the game you signed up for and tell rc to suck eggs?

How you gunna say I am dropping things when I say something that makes sense you completely fail to further the conversation? Like are you still Scum reading me? Why or why not? Otherwise it just looks like you are throwing shade honestly.

I have no idea what this is in reference to.

CES. You must have been satisfied with his response. I definitely was not.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think anything you said in that conversation made sense.

Well, then your not thinking critically enough.

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't think anything you said in that conversation made sense.

Well, then your not thinking critically enough.

Do you ever grant the possibility that maybe you're the one who is wrong?

Not in this case, no.

[LicketyQuickety]

I am wondering if I should just hammer...

[LicketyQuickety]

Alright. Seems Eddie doesn't really want to play anymore anyways.

VOTE: Eddie

[LicketyQuickety]

I say we push Marquis hard for content D3.

[LicketyQuickety]

At this point an Eddie flip tells us a lot about the game. Tells us a lot about Gamma if Eddie flips Scum, tells us about ECS and Lycan if Eddie flips Town. At this point this lynch needs to happen.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ran, I'd like you to post a recent Scum game you were in.

[LicketyQuickety]

North, I know you haven't read much, but what's your read on me?

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ

:

The Thing Mafia
Flavorless Mafia

Those are horrible examples. Show me a game you got to endgame.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not very invested in the game right now, that doesn't make me scum, and I intend to complete this game, and it jsut struck me that maybe marquis was a better vote than eddie when I really considered it

What do you think of that, by the way? About the eddie/marquis wagons? Lynching me won't make those go away so

You've barely lifted a finger this game, why?

[LicketyQuickety]

North, are you going to answer my question?

North, I know you haven't read much, but what's your read on me?

[LicketyQuickety]

Why Dunn? Why Dunn over AD, Marq, and CES?

Why Dunn? Why is a wagon suddenly forming on Dunn out of all the lurkers?

[LicketyQuickety]

I think Dunn is Town. I've said this several times already, but I see Town Thought Process in Dunn's posts.

[LicketyQuickety]

lol Dunn's scum
if he was town he'd be more critical of me for that, plus he kept dodging the question
VOTE: Dunnstral

This vote is horrible. Gamma has a lot of bad votes IMO.

[LicketyQuickety]

Gamma's town. Although would like you to explain Dunn's thought process coming to you as town.

Don't want me to talk about Gamma being Scum. Why not?

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm telling you Gamma's town. That's it. Now can you answer my question? (Also, you can talk about it as much as you want, I'm still going to tell you Gamma's town)

Why is Gamma Town without meta?

[LicketyQuickety]

Answer my question first, and I'll answer. It's a two way street here.

Dunn's whole demeanor is basically "IDGAF about this game, but here's what I am saying." Dunn is both assertive and unapologetic for their behaviors and actions which way way more often come from Town. Dunn seems relaxed and only posting on things that actually matter to them.

It's in the relaxed assertiveness of Dunn's posts that gives credence to their thought process as a Town one. After all, it is actually remarkably difficult to come across a certain way tonally as Scum unless it is almost your sole focus for how you are approaching the game because it requires faking a particular frame of mind. This is just an overall inefficient way to play as Scum and you see it a lot more often with Scum players who feel they have to prove something to themselves in how Townie they come across to other people as Scum. I had this type of mindset as Scum in the past and it's probably going to continue for a bit longer. But it really is quite difficult to go a whole game faking an aura that is not authentic. Why is it inefficient? Because it requires you to shift your focus away from pushing an agenda in a believable way to trying to make every post you make seem super Townie. But if the person who is faking this type of demeanor, then they are likely going to be hyper focussed on posting a lot so that it can be more easily recognized that they are in fact coming across as Towny. That's where Dunn's IDGAF attitude comes into play. They are not trying to force anything and talk about what concerns them rather than through trying to balance pushing an agenda when that isn't the main focus which would give an aura of being opportunistic. Through this odd placement needing to push an agenda and yet not being able to do it effectively since your main focus is elsewhere. This is why Dunn is Town as opposed to faking a persona in this game.

Let me know if you even understand this or not.

[LicketyQuickety]

Vote: Northsidegal

NSG: Who's scum to you today? Please post KMD's notes.
Gamma: Who's scum to you today? Read on NSG? Did you ever do that ISO on her?
LQ: Who's scum to you today? Read on NSG?
Shea: What direction are thinking of going today?

I'm not that solid today. I'm going to re-read after work.

Why are you voting North?

[LicketyQuickety]

OK, so my biggest 3 suspects at this point are:

shea
Gamma
Marquis

[LicketyQuickety]

I am Scum reading shea for things like 751, 833, 842, 845, 854, 863, 1622, 1627, 1782, 1787, 1894.
Most of these posts are made and then met with dismissal to valid points. Some of them are contradictions like why shea is asking me for a self meta read when he hates/doesn't believe in self-meta.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: TSQ

[LicketyQuickety]

Like actually this is why I'm pretty sure that LQ is town the more I think about it.

If he wanted to build a fake scum case on me he could pretty easily do it, but instead he trots out nonsense that is so unconvincing that I'm reasonable sure he has to actually believe it. No one would ever fake a case that bad.

I intentionally didn't explain the reasoning behind those posts I linked so that people would ask.

[LicketyQuickety]

yeah, I looked at them and I already know what your narrative is going to be because its the same one you used to attack me earlier.

It hasn't gotten any better.

Explain 751, 842, 845, 863, 1627, and 1787.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Gamma

I'd rather be here anyways.

[LicketyQuickety]

And shea, your votes look terrible. You might be able to shrug off my case on you, but shugging off the votes you made isn't the same thing.

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like the kill was to get rid of dead weight since EddieFenix got lynched.

Why would the scum want to get rid of dead weight?

Vote: Marquis

This lynch should happen Today.

Dead weight to them
After eddie got lynched they didn't need postie to push that
so I'm gonna scout the eddie wagon for scum

What do you think of my SR on you?

[LicketyQuickety]

Gamma,

If I said I am SRing you based on the way you vote, what would you say?

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like the kill was to get rid of dead weight since EddieFenix got lynched.

Why would the scum want to get rid of dead weight?

Vote: Marquis

This lynch should happen Today.

Dead weight to them
After eddie got lynched they didn't need postie to push that
so I'm gonna scout the eddie wagon for scum

What do you think of my SR on you?

I think it's kinda sudden. Do you have specific posts to point to like you do for Shea?

Nope. I meta dived you last night looking specifically at the way you vote.

Gamma,

If I said I am SRing you based on the way you vote, what would you say?

I'd say you need to specify what "based on your votes" means.

The way you vote as Scum and the way you Vote as Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Ranmaru,

I want a detailed case on why Gamma is Town based on Meta.

[LicketyQuickety]

BTW, I realize my case on shea is shit.

My observations of Gamma are a lot better and will give us something to discuss.

[LicketyQuickety]

I feel like the kill was to get rid of dead weight since EddieFenix got lynched.

Why would the scum want to get rid of dead weight?

Vote: Marquis

This lynch should happen Today.

You know, the more I think about it the more I think: "Does Marquis really think they can get away with lurking for 2 days straight as Scum?"

I am starting to have doubts about my SR of Marquis. Along with this, what has been my observation for this game is that big wagons are happening on Town and then there is no CW to speak of. If something similar happens today, there is not a very good chance I will be on the wagon. Why I say this in regards to Marquis is because of what I said early D1 how Marquis was getting rung up with votes and there wasn't really a CW. Then we saw the same thing happen with Screen/Chill, then we saw the same thing happen with Eddie. It should not happen again.

[LicketyQuickety]

How can you possibly say there was no counterwagon? Either of the first two days? It's something you keep saying but its not true.

What is your read on Gamma?

[LicketyQuickety]

How can you possibly say there was no counterwagon? Either of the first two days? It's something you keep saying but its not true.

Because of how the voted ended at EOD. I wouldn't call 8 v 1 and 7 v 3 competing wagons. I would say if its like tied at 4 votes, then that is a solid wagon and counter wagon. Everyone piling on one wagon isn't exactly what I would call competition for who is getting lynched.

[LicketyQuickety]

speaking of questions and lq, lq i don't believe you ever answered my question.

What was your question?

So what is your read on Gamma?

[LicketyQuickety]

speaking of questions and lq, lq i don't believe you ever answered my question.

What was your question?

So what is your read on Gamma?

look literally 2 posts above this one.

Yeah, I'll explain Gamma in a bit, I want to see a Meat case for him being Town from Ran first.

I already said my reason for finding you Sus: your votes.

And I have been SRing Marquis most of the game.

So no, I am not linking anyone together.

Now your read on Gamma please.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ, just answer the question so he can answer your question so there is less noise in between posts. Please don't answer with another question, unless you answer it in the same post. That way you save posts.

Also on Gamma Town Meta, I've went over it before but I can't get into that right now, I'm at work. I'm just going to post small posts.

I'll wait till you are off work for you to give your meta case on why Gamma is Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

You need to give your case on why you believe Gamma is scum before hand since Burden of Proof is on you. Afterwords I can give you a brief explanation of why I believe Gamma is town.

Nope, not doing that. You tell me why he is Town first and then I will say what I was seeing.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Ranmaru

[LicketyQuickety]

I'll get on with explaining why I am voting Ran later in the day. Right now I want to see how people react.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Ranmaru

LOL explain this shit. Just because Ran is telling you to present first you're voting him? You wanna revise that line of bullshit?

Why is it bull shit?

[LicketyQuickety]

TSQ you're not giving a read on me specifically there

No, nor was I trying to yet. I want to get him to answer my question which he seems resistant to doing?

I already answered. Like if that wasn't good enough I expect you to detail what exactly you want from my answer.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think my read on gamma is a pretty strong lean town. I had him there because I think that his jumpiness is indicative of town trying to figure out how to best use his vote, reck also town reads him if you refer to my big post of reck reads, because he feels like the conclusions he's coming to are generally the same as the ones gammas coming to.

You should look at one Scum game of Gamma's and one Town game of Gammas. Humor me.

[LicketyQuickety]

You scumread a person, you present your case. Simple as that. If you need to check why I town read Gamma, you can check my posts like you always ask me to. I'm not going to go back and forth on this point. After you present your case, I'll reasonably fulfill your request. Not before.

Well, the read is contingent on your read of Gamma, so...

[LicketyQuickety]

Ok, but that's not going to happen for a little bit.

I want to reread this game first, and as mentioned earlier I'm out of town without a computer this weekend and I don't plan on doing meta dives on my phone.

Also it would be a lot easier for me to look at gamma scum and town games if you gave me some idea of what I was looking for rather than this vague decree.

I can't tell you what to look for because then that defeats the purpose. I need to know what your unfiltered thoughts are on Gamma as Town and Gamma as Scum. I can ask other people. Who I ask isn't that important, I just want a few people to humor me with this.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Ranmaru

LOL explain this shit. Just because Ran is telling you to present first you're voting him? You wanna revise that line of bullshit?

Why is it bull shit?

Because you're not scumreading him but still voting him because he's pressing you on your read on me

Like I said, my read on you is contingent on Ran's read on you.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ok, but that's not going to happen for a little bit.

I want to reread this game first, and as mentioned earlier I'm out of town without a computer this weekend and I don't plan on doing meta dives on my phone.

Also it would be a lot easier for me to look at gamma scum and town games if you gave me some idea of what I was looking for rather than this vague decree.

I can't tell you what to look for because then that defeats the purpose. I need to know what your unfiltered thoughts are on Gamma as Town and Gamma as Scum. I can ask other people. Who I ask isn't that important, I just want a few people to humor me with this.

I can ask a teammate if they have time to do it for me this weekend and see what they say.

That will work.

[LicketyQuickety]

it feels like lq has caught onto the people who say they shouldn't lynch him because he's lynchbait and too scummy to be town and so has doubled down on it

Wut?

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ, can you re-phrase that. You need to improve on your communication.

What do you want me to rephrase?

[LicketyQuickety]

RC says he mostly just wants to highlight that the possibility of Ranmaru-scum should be taken seriously. He doesn't feel like making a bigpost anymore after seeing TSQ's response.
He says that restricting his input weakens the town on the whole, and that on day 1 after he'd commented on nsg meta and disliking Eddie's ISO he gave no input until EoD.

Just quoting this because I can.

[LicketyQuickety]

BTW, I realize what I am doing is not typical of me. I have to believe that part of this is because I have been trying to organize my life in the last few weeks and it's starting to rub off in different areas of my life (for the better).

[LicketyQuickety]

You say your read is contingent on mine, what does that mean exactly?

I prefer not to spoil the surprise.

[LicketyQuickety]

I am probably wrong because I am always wrong when I am this sure of something, but still want to see how this goes.

[LicketyQuickety]

All I am seeing here from LQ is "I want to connect Ran and Gamma through them defending each other". I've seen enough.
VOTE: LicketyQuickety

If that is what I am saying, would you say that is inaccurate?

[LicketyQuickety]

All I am seeing here from LQ is "I want to connect Ran and Gamma through them defending each other". I've seen enough.
VOTE: LicketyQuickety

If that is what I am saying, would you say that is inaccurate?

Well yeah, you're trying to argue we're scum through that connection

Why would that be something that wouldn't be a tell?

[LicketyQuickety]

All I am seeing here from LQ is "I want to connect Ran and Gamma through them defending each other". I've seen enough.
VOTE: LicketyQuickety

If that is what I am saying, would you say that is inaccurate?

Well yeah, you're trying to argue we're scum through that connection

Why would that be something that wouldn't be a tell?

The issue is fmpov, I know I'm town so I am calling you out for softballing this accusation

Why would me softballing mean I am Scum tho?

[LicketyQuickety]

I want people to Meta Dive Gamma and tell me if you see any glaringly obvious differences between his Town game and Scum game.

[LicketyQuickety]

All I am seeing here from LQ is "I want to connect Ran and Gamma through them defending each other". I've seen enough.
VOTE: LicketyQuickety

If that is what I am saying, would you say that is inaccurate?

Well yeah, you're trying to argue we're scum through that connection

Why would that be something that wouldn't be a tell?

The issue is fmpov, I know I'm town so I am calling you out for softballing this accusation

Why would me softballing mean I am Scum tho?

It's that you're holding it out like this, like let the act go we can all see it, I at least know how to press someone without blowing my load.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[LicketyQuickety]

I want people to Meta Dive Gamma and tell me if you see any glaringly obvious differences between his Town game and Scum game.

Yes and what does that have to do with ranmaru at ALL.

I'll explain later if someone doesn't figure it out by then. First I need a few people to look at a few games of Gamma's and I need Ran to give detailed reasoning for why he is TRing Gamma based on meta.

[LicketyQuickety]

Here's what I can do: After you give your case on Gamma, I can explain my Gamma Town Read, and link you to the games I have played with him. That's it. When I reference his meta, I'm talking about games I have played with him. (Hint: I've already referenced two of them)

Did you read the games you asked for, LQ? What did you gain from reading those games?

Nope. It's dependent on you giving your read (and most importantly why) first.

[LicketyQuickety]

No. Burden of proof is on you. Also you can just check my reads list in my ISO.

My vote isn't moving until I see why you are meta reading Gamma as Town.

[LicketyQuickety]

Gamma: I see Gamma making sense and being genuine in his pushes.

Generic read, yawn.

I understand his feelings on Marquis feeling scummier than Eddie (sort of) in that Marquis's EOD posting was not good at all.

That is how you understand Gamma's point, not a reason to TR him. Do you think Scum make bad pushes all the time? If you do, then you haven't played with good Scum players.

I can understand how my shift from that may have made him paranoid.

This is something I will have to revisit. Can you quote where this happened?

Marquis was my only lead at the beginning of Day 2, yet I was going to re-read. Then Day 2 happened and I just re-evaluated from things happening in the present. Him re-considering as I talked to him felt townie too. That's without the meta.

OK. So you are saying here that because Gamma reevaluated means he is Town?

With meta, I again, feel he's been the towniest I've ever seen him, and seems like his play from The Thing Mafia (which I already linked to LQ).

How does it resemble that game? Be specific.

Again, he's a player that plays by the book, but is improving, and can be stubborn at times.

Why do you say he plays by the book and that he is improving? What do you mean by him playing by the book? What do you mean by him improving? What is he improving on?

His forced reaction seems to be what I would expect from Gamma, especially if someone insults (or he feels they have insulted) his experience.

I can't say I have seen him react that way. What posts specifically are you talking about?

Yet for him, it actually makes sense, as opposed to Eddie who comes with a forced tone out of no where.

Why make this distinction between Gamma and Eddie here? What is that suppose to tell us about Gamma really?

LQ, it seems like it might also be an LQ thing. I realize by now, he's my only strong town read. The only thing I don't get is his Eddie town read he had. That's all though.

You have not answered at all what the actual difference between Gamma's Town game and Scum game is. What is Gamma doing in this game specifically that you think is out of his Scum range? I am looking for a compare and a contrast between games here and I am not seeing it.

[LicketyQuickety]

So that would be the read.

Ran's defense of Gamma is completely unwarranted. He keeps saying it's a meta read, but he has yet to demonstrate how this game is any different that Gamma's other games. The reason I wanted people to look at Gamma's games is to show that Gamma is remarkably good at copying his Town meta. So then for Ran to just give these lame ass "reasons" for a "Meta Read" which isn't even a distinction between his Town and Scum games shows something funny is going on here.

[LicketyQuickety]

I should have forced Ran to give the difference between Gamma's Town games first. Kinda regret caving and letting out my case so soon.

[LicketyQuickety]

That said, I asked Ran for his meta read on Gamma, and hopefully people see that Ran's meta read of Gamma is BS.

[LicketyQuickety]

I want people to Meta Dive Gamma and tell me if you see any glaringly obvious differences between his Town game and Scum game.

Yes and what does that have to do with ranmaru at ALL.

I'll explain later if someone doesn't figure it out by then. First I need a few people to look at a few games of Gamma's and I need Ran to give detailed reasoning for why he is TRing Gamma based on meta.

And Ran's meta read of Gamma is so far removed from "detailed" that it's not even funny.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'll explain my GE scum read now. The main thing is that he seems much too concerned with whether his votes seem justified or not; as town you know you find people suspicious and you can vote for them, it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. #703 is definitely the worst offender - the actual case thing seems to consist mostly of him throwing slushy snowballs at Tchill and although he apparently thinks it's good enough to justify his vote, there's no sign he wants to encourage anyone to read any part of it. And there's lines like "Given that and the fact Something_Smart is telling me not to trust you, I feel comfortable with this." in #256 which just sounds so awkward to me, as if there's some bar that must be met before he's allowed to vote Shea. The amount of time he's spent not voting matches up with this too. (The vote on Marquis earlier Today was a welcome exception but I'd like to believe that could be a sign of a GE-Marquis partnership.)

Eddie, what do you personally think about Ranmaru? (I'm not interested in Mastina's opinion.)

Switch to Gamma.

[LicketyQuickety]

Gamma does tend to play by the book, in general. When I say he's scummy as scum, he's scummy. Here in comparison, he's pretty townie to me. If he's scum, this is the most townie I have seen him be and I applaud him, yet I think he's town. So I want you to try to work with him. Your response towards Gamma at the end of D1 was a bit snarky, so I could understand why he's miffed at you.

Just reminding people of some things Ran has said about Gamma...

[LicketyQuickety]

Gamma is town.

Why? So far you have been talking to Gamma like he is your best bud, yet this is the first time we see you explicitly say Gamma is Town. What was this read based on? And why didn't you give any reasons for reading Gamma as Town?

[LicketyQuickety]

Lycanfire

: Meta. Gamma as scum doesn't really have interest in posting, from what I have seen. Gamma here has been saying sensible things and putting in work. His paranoia of me earlier Day 2 was also townie, not something I'd expect from scum him. Earlier you said that my conclusion on Shea was wrong (SvS) so I want to know, how did that conclusion affect your read on Shea and why?

Here you say Gamma is a meta read, but don't reference any evidence to back it up. Why not?

[LicketyQuickety]

Trust me, he's improving. He's town though. I'll let him respond before I comment further.

What do you mean "he is improving"? Why do you feel Gamma's play is sub-par? From what I have seen, Gamma is a pretty competent player. I don't get this "oh, but he's getting better" angle. Like this is why I am SRing Gamma - because I feel like you are trying to say Gamma is just this helpless little player who can't do anything himself. So then you say he "new" and "improving" to say why he is Town. It doesn't make sense to me.

[LicketyQuickety]

Like I said, I'll show you what I mean later. I think you are town, and think this is not helping us find actual scum. You are just being distracting right now. Reason for not casing Gamma as town: I didn't need to. I've already explained the gist. If you really need me to explain (which you have already asked questions about, and I have said I will get back to you on that) I shall. Your case isn't really a case. Also, don't spam. You are being anti-town.

My case is most def a case! How is it not a case? Like I have caught Scum doing this exact same thing before. How are you going to say this is not a case?

[LicketyQuickety]

What time do you get off work?

[LicketyQuickety]

Answer my question.

Answer mine.

[LicketyQuickety]

You could take the time to answer while I'm working. Anyway, I'm out at 10PM EST. I'll post later tonight. You'll see me around 1am-3am EST. Now, answer the question. Ciao.

I didn't read them.

[LicketyQuickety]

I just went through flavorless. It seems that you have a Scum tell that I will be looking for.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not going to bother with The Thing Mafia because it would be a nightmare trying to figure out who is posting what because it's a hydra game.

[LicketyQuickety]

oops i lied i took melatonin see yall in 8 hrs

This is such bull.

[LicketyQuickety]

BTW,

I reread some of the beginning of the game. I don't blame people for not being able to read me actually. I realize like 90% of the shit I say comes straight out of left field. I can't help it, it's just the way my brain works.

[LicketyQuickety]

sidenote i feel like it's weird that i'm not obviously town rn? like in the least egotistical way possible (if that's even possible but u know what i mean.) not because my play has been a shining beacon of towniness but because i'm usually left alone on d1. it might be because this is the first game i've purposely joined in a long time that i'm not in with someone i have a history of ez townbloc-ing with but it also kind of makes me feel like there's some kind of agenda because otherwise i'm not a typical textbook town player.

Marquis(4) ~ wgeurts, Cogito Ergo Sum, LicketyQuickety, Dunnstral

like looking at the votes on me gun to my head i'd bare minimum pick lickety as the scum agenda one but that's because i've been seeing mediumlong post after mediumlong post and i know he has the capability to play this way as scum which makes me wary, as well as being opportunistic at the same time while not

too

obvious about it. but i'm still concerned that's too meta oriented as opposed to his actual play here which i haven't had the chance to really read in real time.

idk i kind of expected it to be easier than this? in the selfish way. going for the game with lynch one two scum and done while floating. need more real time reading so i'll read while at work then?

i think this turned out into me admitting i don't currently have any value to bring to town other than that i'm a warm town body who when further heated up becomes a potentially delicious roasted tomato full of juicy squirty accuracy. again in the least egotistical way possible.

i also feel like i'm talking past people but that's my fault. this wasn't the most productive stream of consciousness moment bc my dumb ass decided to start it without even attempting to full read but i'll post it anyway.

god i really need to read

pls don't vote me more i'll def have more time friday bc i dont have a nightlife still

Another post I like, this one seems to have towniness in the prose it uses

@Gamma,

Why did you like this post?

[LicketyQuickety]

It's almost as though context matters to the meaning of words, or something.

You are impressing me with how stupid you are.

TSQ basically stated that he had no doubt that I was Scum. The ONLY other explanation that TSQ can have is that he was saying he misunderstood my motive as Town and thought I would have voted a high BW as Town there and I am not buying that.

I never got an answer here btw.

[LicketyQuickety]

I... posted the conclusion first?

What was the conclusion because I missed it.

[LicketyQuickety]

above post seems like a pretty bizarre overreaction. Forced?

Nah.

[LicketyQuickety]

basically a prodge, will post later today. confident in calling sauce's slot basically conftown.

Let me know if you still think this.

I am going to rely a lot on Dan and North going forward.

[LicketyQuickety]

VOTE: Marquis

I want to believe.

[LicketyQuickety]

I've reread the game to like page 18 or so. Marquis needs rope, badly.

@Ranmaru, what I was noticing about Gamma's Town votes and Scum votes is basically the same kind of thing you talk about in the difference in attitude and fervor for playing. As Town, he's very confident in his votes and he doesn't mess around. In this game, if you look at his votes, they are very "well I guess, not really sure" which looks really bad for him. He also sits on his votes as Town for like, forever. In this game he has voted probably at least twice as often as I would expect. You also rarely see him unvoting in games he is Town. In this game, you seem him unvoting much more frequently.

I looked at these games:
viewtopic.php?p=9919407&user_select%5B% ... 4#p9919407
viewtopic.php?p=9935053&user_select%5B% ... 4#p9935053
viewtopic.php?p=9932701&user_select%5B% ... 4#p9932701
viewtopic.php?p=9935020&user_select%5B% ... 4#p9935020
viewtopic.php?p=9884752&user_select%5B% ... 4#p9884752

[LicketyQuickety]

Cross-Over Mafia
Family Mafia
Penguin Mafia Redux
Thing Mafia

Look at SCUMMY Gamma: [#1443]

He replaces in and hops on the "Your null reads ARE BAD Ranmaru" and I"m like hold on, that's scum. *votes* I ask him why he isn't voting me if he suspects me. He votes me in his #1569 Gamma was being reactive, he had no drive to find scum. His tone was much different than here. In his #1573 he seemed cold, emotionless. Alll in all, he came in with a forced stance on me as he replaced in without trying to sort me, he just dug his heels in on me, and he kept flip flopping saying Nacho was lyncher (or Elyse) to create false connections. In Penguin Mafia Gamma was active, but wasn't scum hunting as much. I asked for reads and he didn't have much. [#413] Minimal notes at this point in time: #709 Plays tactically with his pagetop #1000 This is his readslist: readslist This seems different from here, he's more jokey and makes less sense. He's been doing ISO's and putting in effort to find scum.

In Cross-over Mafia, Gamma didn't do a damn thing. He lurked, as an Independent Role. He had no interest in keeping up. Frozenflame Vote he beetlejuices as people pressure him out of his inactivity, he omgus votes FrozenFlame. That is not what he is doing here either. Quote from Gamma to me: "@EGW I don't have solid reads on everyone, maybe I could if I went back through but I kinda don't want to." Boom. So to me, this game, looks much better than any Gamma I have seen in the past, and he's making sensible posts. You state that I should see that he's just copying his normal townie meta, but I haven't seen his extensive townie meta, I've seen his scum and independent play, and this does not look like it at all.


#1285 This seems sensible, coming from a pro-town mindset. He's curious about why MOI wouldn't consider Andrius's wall. When you are curious about something, it may be more likely you are town who is trying to gamesolve, as oppose to just discrediting as scum. #1471 More yelling from Gamma, which shows it's Null. #4387 Mistake that cost Gamma/Transcend slot their life. (Due to hydra dissonance, funnily enough my hydra was doing hydra dis on purpose) More townie analysis from Gamma: #1021

---

Gamma sees me vote you over Marquis, and he wonders why I am moving to you instead of staying there, since he recently had a scumread on him as well. #1368 Yes, Gamma re-evaluating gives him townie points. It shows he isn't being stubborn. Me saying that 'this is the towniest I have ever seen him' should be clear to you now that I have shown you the examples from which I have experienced Gamma's play. Here, compared to all that, it's much better in my eyes, which is why I keep stating he's town. I generally don't case my town reads. This posts seem by the book to me: #78 #1149 #1231 This post: #647 is the one I refer to when I say that Gamma's 'forced' reactions seem to be what I would expect of him. #881 I made the distinction between Eddie and Gamma because knowing Gamma, his reaction seems normal for him, as opposed to Eddie, who I thought was scum, seemed malicious with his push in the beginning of Day 2. It was a sudden change of tone from Day 1. Fair enough on the Marquis point.

Why didn't you say this in the first place? I asked you to give detailed reasons and you pointed me to a post that said nothing about Gamma's meta.

[LicketyQuickety]

At the time I was making reads, I didn't have time. I had the time to do it tonight. Also still believe in people giving their case

first

due to burden of proof. I'll consider your #2219 in my re-evaluation. I'd like to see Gamma's response as well. I want you to talk to me about Lycanfire and Davsto.

I'd like you to respond to the post I made point by point.

[LicketyQuickety]

Votecount 3.1

Marquis(2)

~ Cogito Ergo Sum, LicketyQuickety

northsidegal(1)

~ Ranmaru

LicketyQuickety(1)

~ Gamma Emerald

Cogito Ergo Sum(1)

~ Lycanfire


Not Voting (6): Davsto, Marquis, ActionDan, northsidegal, Thestatusquo, Dunnstral

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2018-03-02 07:15:00)

FLAVOR

This is an automated vote count generated by a tool written by MathBlade. It goes much smoother with exact votes but will try to detect bold votes and misspellings. If you have issues during this beta, please get MathBlade.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Lycan,

I am a firm believer that no one is "lock Town" unless they are confirmed by the mod to be Town. Also, don't give me that "there are no associations with Ran" because we haven't got a red flip yet. So no, Ran is not clear. If you have a very good reason to say why he is Town, that is one thing, but to say he is lock Town is not something I can roll with.

[LicketyQuickety]

Your #2219? I can do that when I'm done with the re-read.

No, my 2186.

[LicketyQuickety]

Sorta Kinda Reads List:

I think Town can still win this game. I think it's not really going to be super hard to win either, granted Town can get their heads out of their ass and start working together.

For Town I have:
Dan: Pretty much everything he writes is gold. What he says makes a lot of sense and he carries a perspective that I don't think Scum could fake. Only concern is that with the gold that he writes with, I would expect more pressure on Marquis from him.
North: North is a read like Dan. I just don't think North could viably fake what they are doing as Scum. I am also going with Postie's read on North here.
Dunn: Now this is probably the hardest read for me to make, but suffice to say I like their tone. I talk about this in 2062. That said, they don't have enough content for me to be super confident in this read, so I wouldn't mind some pressure there.
Davsto: I feel his approach to the game is wolds different than mine is. That said, I can't say I have really seen anything that is outright Scummy from him. I mentioned that his reads were generic, but I don't think this necessarily means that this is Scummy. I think my trouble TRing Davsto in the past has been because we just approach the game so much differently. Also, as I reread parts of the game, I saw his entrance and I thought it was actually pretty good. No, he didn't give any content in his first post, but he was extremely light hearted and I feel he wasn't faking it at all.
Ran: I think most of my suspicion of him is just plain old paranoia. Like on paper this guy is never Scum. He also hasn't neglected this game which is something I noticed when he was Scum. As Scum he just is always saying "I'll get to this later"
Gamma: If Ran is Town, then I am just going to believe that Gamma is Town is well, it's as simple as that.
Lycan: He's had solid content and I feel this is another read that I can get swept away by paranoia. His posts are solid, much like Dan and North.

That leaves:
CES: After thinking about it a lot, I think I can see some Scum motive in what he is pushing. I saw he voted Marquis at a time when Marquis wagon was on a down trend, then Marquis got voted by me and someone else. I think this could be telling if Marquis flips Scum.
Shea: Yeah, he just gives me the hebejebes. Call it gut but I don't like him at all. The way he has defended Marquis is like highly suspect to me. There is also his horrendous votes and the fact he has never voted Marquis.
Marquis: No Town quality posts at all, isn't here, can't make a Town post to save their life. This is the lynch I want today.

If I am wrong about the bottom three, it's probably CES I am wrong about.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think we should delierate this more before rushing into a marquis lynch

Why?

[LicketyQuickety]

Marquis is actually just in danger of being straight up replaced.

I can vote tchill because of something momo said. Are you sure you're ok with Cogito airport light -stick guying votes on to Marquis and insert random wagon size -contender, or can I persuade you to punish him for it with me?

I like this better.

I consider what people say about their play, but I don't let people tell me why they're doing the things they do because people lie. You know damn well I know you're quick and I believe I've told you that I've read your wiki, but I also recall you have something of a poor memory, so I forgive you for not remembering that.

The problem with your actions is that the things you're doing also have significant scum motivations. Regardless of if you think you're doing them for other reasons, I'm not in your head, and I can't just trust you.

And I also am starting to be pretty sure you're scum because you're poking and drawing almost no reasonable conclusions. You start long discussions with me about nonsense about how reck is using different tools to find reads, and then disengage as soon as I try to explain. That's the biggest problem here. You're poking, but you don't seem to care about the responses to your pokes. At least not from the people you're poking. You seem to be singularly interested in the responses of other players, which makes me think you're more interested in finding where you can find an easy lynch, and not concerned about finding the correct lynch. This squares quite nicely with your vote on marquis also, which you have not fully explained after naked voting. It's nice to be on the highest vote getter who happens to not be posting much.

Actually, literally all the votes on marquis right now are atrocious.

And I know why people are Scum reading me. I think Lycan hit on this point and so did Postie a bit.

It's because people are interpreting my play as "mechanical" and for some reason they thing this means I am Scum. Instead, I would say I am trying to play in a logical way with a big picture outlook on the game. That means I am not going to get into specifics of relating what Player X did at point A and compare that to what Player Y did at Point B. I have never played that way so if people expect me to play that way, I am sorry to say that they will be disappointed. How I play is looking at posts in isolation and seeing if they are internally logical insofar of what I know to be logical comparing this to what I think is the correct way to play. I sometimes compare a post they made somewhat recently to what they are saying, but I am not going to remember something that someone said on page 5 at this point. I will, however, ISO players occasionally and I will usually do this if someone asks me to.

I don't think your summary up there is even remotely responsive to why I am scum reading you. I don't give a damn if you play mechanically or not. I laid out in detail why I think you're scummy, and its mainly because I don't actually see you doing the thing you say you're doing here. I see you starting conversations and interactions with people and then trying to gauge town reactions to those things and disengaging with the pokes as soon as its clear people aren't going to start voting the person. Like, I have no doubt you would have voted me after our exchange if a couple of other people had.

The problem I am having with the SRs on me is that there isn't much probing from players who are Scum reading me. Some players are doing this, but most of what people are bringing to me as an inquiry are things that I don't see a whole lot of relevance to actually sort me. Examples include Postie asking me to ask my teammates what their reads on players are in this game and Lycan asking me why I had a change in perspective on Marquis reads list. Shea has probably been the person who has looked like they have tried to sort me the most, but I am not going to TR him just solely on that fact.

Do you think the methods others are using on you are ineffective or disingenuous? These are different claims, and I think one might be true, but also I don't think its the one you're claiming.

I think this game has become too lopsided. Lots of people voting a single lurker for being a lurker (Marquis) with most people on the wagon having little demonstrated reason for being there. Then you have most of the active players who are fighting amongst themselves mostly and a lot of people who have very little content who are getting by with not doing a whole lot of anything. The state of the game isn't a good one for Town currently - especially considering that a lot of people have expressed that they are Scum read me, whom I consider myself to generally be a Town leader when I am Town. I cannot yet tell who or how many Scum players are going to try and actively push my lynch, but there will most certainly be Scum on my lynch if it happens, so look at those on my wagon upon my lynch.

Homie you were literally voting for that lurker ONE PAGE AGO. With NO EXPLANATION YOURSELF. Literal naked vote. Then you jumped on another wagon without demonstrating or explaining any sort of scum read there. WHY are you voting TChill? WHY did you vote marquis? People aren't scum reading you because you're mechanical, they're scum reading you because you don't seem to care who is lynched and because you're not telling us what your reads are and not explaining them. In the absence of information, what the hell else am I supposed to think?

is there anything i NEED to directly comment on?

Lazyyy

LQ that's a good assessment, if that gets more votes I'll vote it but I'm sticking with Marqius for now

very interesting to look back at if marquis or Sauce ever flip.

Why? Just a vague "interesting"? And not even "interesting if they flip scum/town", just "flip"? What an awful post.

Slapping me with a scum role when the last 3 games I rolled scum in were subpar at best ain't the best thing for me to have right now.

This meta talk is giving me a fucking headache. It's just wifom, wifom, wifom, all the way down the tracks.

VOTE: postie

im caught up.

wow i sure am glad you voted for a player where your only reason was gut as compared to the several players you've shaded

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

You did that. Less than 50 posts ago. Like, not "Marquis is scum and I think I've spotted his team" but you were all "interesting,,,"

Outside of my first scum game, the only one I've really enjoyed, I have never not been lynched as scum on this site.

To be fair that's like, 90% because everyone's been very, very wary of you since you absolutely smashed your first scum game. This is bad self-meta.

Tchill seems town so far. "Alarmed" post counts in favor and scumhunting seems genuine enough.

This is an odd conclusion because, well, Tchill has barely seemed town and his scumhunting was baaad.

I don't know how good at scum Postie is. She has mostly towntells at this point, but when I try to meta her I keep reading GD threads.

You could have asked

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=70536
^ Last one I played. I did okay at first but then as soon as people started putting pressure on me I shut down and became a coasty postie and eventually replaced out. It's the one I menioned earlier so I don't expect you to read the whole thing but feel free to skim my ISO or whatever.

Then there are these from 2016:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=66865
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=67718
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=65639

I wish I had more to show you from 2017 or something but I haven't played in a while. I feel like I had more than that in 2016 too but I can't find them right now.

On one hand, this is missing Word Sneak 1 where Postie actually played well as scum and was very townread and only lynched because I had an inkling that something was wrong and was cop so got a guilty. On the other hand, upon skimming the games it does appear her losses are to do with not playing well rather than being under scrutiny due to previous performances. Idk how I'm feeling about this whole self-meta thing.

Dunn has a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Llamarble is essentially a naked vote, nothing to analyze there.
Postie looks more or less like a naked vote as well.

I dislike how the reaction to the naked votes is "nothing to analyse" rather than "I'll ask more questions". And Llamarble definitely has some, if only, a little explanation behind his vote. Definitely enough to give a good starting point for questions if not analysis.

You've just been really flat and superificial this game which isn't what I'm used to seeing from town!you

That's actually a really good point. Reading through I feel like Lickety has almost been slipping under my radar which doesn't feel right. Too safe would be the word?

I'll need some clarification on that vote at some point, Lycan

It was an RVS vote because I didn't want to leave RVS. I wanted to make a sillier looking vote but I somewhat felt bad for Mathblade so I made it coherent enough to be picked up by their web bot.

Do you usually need reasons for RVS votes?

Whoa I forgot this person was playing. Probably because this is its first non-RVS post all game. Hm.

You mentioned you had a "read" on dunn that was your own. Can you elaborate on that. How did you get a read from a naked RVS vote and then never posting again?

I read it as a wolfy pop-in, he jumped in to vote and nothing else, meaning he didn't care about anything but pushing the wagon

As tsq points out promptly, this is bad. Bad bad. Feels like he decided to want to scumread Dunn and then find a reason I guess? Kinda like he checked his ISO and went "ooh, vote on Marquis, that's something good to push".

Welcome to the towny pile.

I think postie makes more sense with LQ than marquis. If postie is scum I think its with LQ.

VOTE: EddieFenix

I think that LQ being scum mostly makes sense from the perspective of tchill being scum. If tchill isn't scum a lot of LQs actions on that wagon look a lot better.

Willing to throw some muscle behind postie's push. I think the case makes a lot of sense.

Not really wanting to go after marquis. But if he tries to lurk through this day too I want him to eat rope really quick.

Llamarble would you mind explaining to me why Marquis is scum. But do it like I'm stupid. It'll be like old times.

Mostly I understand you think he has dropped some sort of tells and that you don't like his pacing/cadence but I don't really know what you mean by that. Explain yourself pls.

I think Marquis has been just about as null as a player who has posted can be.

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

he explicitly said it wasn't associative and more to the point, even if he hadn't: why?

LQ that's a good assessment, if that gets more votes I'll vote it but I'm sticking with Marqius for now

very interesting to look back at if marquis or Sauce ever flip.

Why is that? Unless you are just hinting at some surface level association BS I don't get this comment.

I'm a little alarm llamarbale is already making associations around marquis.

I agree with TSQ marquis is pretty null.

this is an interesting juxtaposition in addition to completely ignoring lqs question.

speaking of questions and lq, lq i don't believe you ever answered my question.

(last post was directed at LQ, gamma. This ones for you bb)

Alright guys, got our first.

Wanna actually address my issues with you rather than say "got our first"? Or do you just want to throw shade?

Not really, no. Arguing to convince scum why they're scum is kind of a waste of time.

But for the good of the rest of the game I'll point out that there has been no change in my arguments or my position from when I originally voted you and now, between which you totally changed your mind on me and said "I'm no longer FoSing you" and then decided that I was blowing things out of proportion. Your anger and suspicion of me seems to be not based around figuring out my alignment, but rather based on the strenuousness of my arguments against you, so I'm not particularly willing to give it much credence.

I have other reasons that I think you're scum, though. For instance, you voted marquis, after declaring that the dunn vote was readable because he came into the thread in order to pile onto the wagon, but its actually your vote that was the wagon pile on, not his. Your position on the wagon was a million times worse than the one you're reading as scum.

You say you've done a bunch of other stuff but what, exactly, do you mean by that? I see you agreeing with an LQ comment. I see you vaguely defending postie. I see you throwing early shade on marquis and dunn by sheeping llamarble and posting no insight of your own. What of these actions do you think represents a reasonable attempt to sort players?

I don't see any of them as such, and I think your vote is convenient and also doesn't accomplish anything in the game and it looks to me like you're content not accomplishing anything in the game.

The two times you've expressed strong suspicion in this game was the vote on the guy who has one post (which as I have already stated is crap) and on me after I asked you a series of pointed questions after voting you.

If you're town you're not doing a very good job.

I consider these posts defense of Marquis and they should be looked at very closely if Marquis flips Scum.

[LicketyQuickety]

I think the only correct thing you've said so far is that Marquis is a supermarket.

You know, the more I think about it the more I think: "Does Marquis really think they can get away with lurking for 2 days straight as Scum?"

I'm sure there's an aspect of genuine inactivity to it but then it's exacerbated by him being scum. All he's done since his disastrous start is occasionally pop in, post something that's meant to sound vaguely pro-town and peaced out again.

Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Especially the part where you say their lack of activity is exacerbated by being Scum. There is this kind of tell I have for people that when they are not active, but have an excuse, and they do this perpetually, they are actually way more likely to be Scum. The fact you point this out is a good thing, because I think if you were teamed with Marquis, you could have very well said something along the lines of "We'll that's something to consider, but I still am not happy with Marquis content." If Marquis flips Scum, I am prolly going to rule that as a Town move by you. With all things considered of how you have rocked the boat a bit, I think if marquis flips Scum that makes you look pretty good because there is a lot of other things you could do to rock the boat without bussing your teammate.

[LicketyQuickety]

Ends with the following:

Town

:
ran
lycan
marquis
postie

"Meh"

:
gamma
eddie
quick
thestatusquo

Scum

:
davsto
cogito ergo sum
actiondan
dunnstral

How does your list compare? Why the hell is Marquis Town??? The SR's I can see. The Town reads I can see. I CANNOT see Marquis that high up.

[LicketyQuickety]

Mathdino also has some things he wants me to relay:

He said that he thinks the lynch order of:
Ces > Quick > Dunn > Tsq > Marquis

ends the game, and actually would likely end the game after the second lynch.

@Dan

– Math wants to hear your team's read and thoughts on tsq

@Quick

– Math specifically wants to hear Creature's thoughts and reads when he gets the chance. He also wants to hear your case on marquis (none of us are really seeing marquis scum), and he wants you to consider whether your scumreads make sense with eachother.

@Ran

– Math doesn't know you but he knows a50 and he shares my confidence in you being town so he wants to work with you and your team today because he thinks you're a very likely kill target.
With regard to your read on me he wants a50 to look over my iso and take specific note of things that were influenced by my team / where i mention my team's reads.

@Gamma

– He's baffled you're still townreading cogito ergo sum, and wants to hear more on that.

Tell Math I understand why he is seeing me teamed with CES. I haven't said a lot about him. My read for CES is mostly based on the fact that he isn't saying the same thing that everyone else is and he has new insights into players. I view this as really strong Pro-Town behavior because Scum rarely care about bringing in new insights into the game. Scum is primarily concerned with pushing and agenda and they don't need to provided new insights into the game to do that. That said, IF Marquis flips Town, and I highly doubt he will, then I would look at CES a lot closer.

What I have from Creature in the White Flag area of discord:
Push Eddie 2/04/18
Based on Llama's ISO, guessing that Marquis is Scum 2/05/18
Creature is thinking the Scum team is Eddie, Marquis, ECS 2/05/18
Asks if CES did something, I have no idea what he was talking about 2/16/18
Then he wants to know why I am SR Ran 2/17
Then he asks if CES did something Townie same day 2/17
I explain my read on CES and Creature was like "ok" and then says I should push Marquis
I tell creature I am pretty sure Marquis is Scum and I say I didn't like Dunn's last post
Then creature mentions "biochemistry" for I have no idea
Then he says he's ok with Dunn lynch
Then I explain why I didn't like Dunn's post and he says, what about independent of Marquis 2/17
That's the last thing I heard from him.

OK, so you are saying your team doesn't see Marquis!Scum. What about Marquis!Town? It's the lack of the TR when I know marquis is fully capable of engaging with the game and providing good solid feedback on other players which he hasn't done like at all. There's no reason to TR Marquis. Hence, Marquise is Scum. I can come up with reasons for why pretty much everyone in the game is Town in some respects and I can't do that with Marquis knowing I am Town. They have pushed one slot all game, me. I'm Town so that doesn't look so good does it? I mean the absolute chronic separation from the game is something that I believe is within Marquis' control more than Marquis is letting on. I highly highly doubt that Marquis literally doesn't have the ability to make it to this game every day. Yeah, I get people can be busy, but busy people make time to play these games because they find them enjoyable. I mean, WTF is Marquis even doing in this game? Do they really seem like they are trying to produce good content? Serious question. Or does it look like Marquis is slacking off way more than they should be? Let's add no Scum hunting to the list while we are at it. Like have you seen Marquis even once look like they were legit trying to sort people? Where was that? How often has that happened would you say? In short, because I have little to no reason to TR Marquis, I think they are Scum. Simple as that.

[LicketyQuickety]

something he mentioned a lot was that the cogito ergo sum wagon has never really picked up steam, and also that his hop on eddie was bad and that ces didn't actually believe in that scumread. already mentioned the kmd thing.

The ECS wagon never picked up steam because ECS sounds very reasonable in what they are saying. Also, I think his hammer was TSTBS.

[LicketyQuickety]

This is a weird turnabout, what changed your read on Ran and me? I want reason for both, and they should be specific for each of us.

Yeah, I agree it's a weird turnabout.

Basically, I already kinda touched on it and kinda predicted I would be wrong about it before I committed to the read in the first place when I said "when I am this sure of something, I am usually wrong."

But to answer your question, It was mostly that I saw I was focussing too much on a single aspect of something. That something was how you did your votes from game to game. I had assumed that Ran was just making up their meta read on you so that they could easily say you were Town without having to give details into why saying it was a meta read. My perspective changed when I saw that Ran could in fact back up what he was saying with regards to his meta read on you. I also took into account that on paper, Ran is really playing very very Pro-Town, so after thinking about it, I decided, once again, using Occam's Razor, that Ran was probably just Town because he was playing like a Townie would. This read was reinforced when I looked at one of the Scum games he linked. In that game, half of his posts were talking about how he would post later. He has done that very very little this game and the times he has done it, it hasn't been a string of "I'll post later", "sorry, I can't post now, I know I said I would but I will later" ect. and he has had a legit excuse for doing so, Namely, work. And he was still posting while at work as well. This is the exact opposite of what Marquis has been doing pretty much all game. To go along with this, Marquise has also NOT played Pro-Town like Ran has. BTW, you have played Pro-Town as well, so that would factor in as well. So once I realized that Ran was Town way more often than he was Scum here, and since he is so strong in his read on you, I think you can see that it's not that much of a jump to say that because Ran is Town, then it's very likely you are Town because of how strong his read on you is.

And I have been trying to see the reason in people's reads more this game. Usually I don't pay attention to, or don give credence to my TR's reads, but this game I am. For example, Postie said North is like lock Town. And since Postie flipped green, I can see that there is probably a good read there. Then I match up what I would read North as, which is the same read, so that read gets strengthened. This is the basic concept behind how I came up with the TR's I did, with a few exceptions. Those exceptions are found in Dunn, CES, Dan to a lesser extent, and most of all, Shea.

[LicketyQuickety]

I want to know why KMD thought the wagon was bad early game.

Yeah, I hate to admit it because of what I said earlier about the wagon, but actually after reading that part of the game over, I think if Marquis flips Scum, that wagon is going to be very telling. I think it makes a few people look very good.

I have to say why I hate to admit it more though. I realize that my line of thinking is so contrary to what the norm is that it's borderline detrimental to Town. I have always been like this in Mafia and it's more annoying than you are probably thinking. I realize that by being so unconventional in what I am looking at compared to others that it's almost impossible for me to actually get a good grasp of what is going on in the game. Players like Llama, tho they don't back up what they are saying very well, have a much better understanding of what is going on in the game at the time. It pains me to admit that I am probably just slow in understanding things. It's really rather embarrassing.