Open 850: Democrabilities (Postgame)
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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The betrayal hurts.In post 14, GoldfishFromTheMoon wrote:
Looks like we have our scumteam confirmed , I'm sorry we couldn't be a townblock this time furtive.Titus wrote:VOTE: Goldfish
Chsinsawing for furtive.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Let me just say, I am very cautious of anyone peddling the holy grail of 'info'. It's become a buzzword that scum (and town for some reason) love to hold up as the key to town winning the game. The fact is, we aren't robots. Town push town, scum push town, town defend town, scum defend town. So the idea of just voting someone at random for 'info' is inherently stupid and pointless. I'm pretty sure that if we end up double eliminating today two townies will die, and people will use the VCA as a tool to further their own scum agenda/town tunneling anyway. A much better idea is to no eliminate first, then agree on one vote.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Nice try but no. Goldfish's 11 clearly took it seriously and voted me for it. So I clarified. Let me anticipate your response. 'Oh furtiveglance clarifying once again, this is clearly scum on the back foot getting so defensive. Besides, even if he is town, let's get some info'.In post 83, MalcolmTucker wrote:
Reading back first page, Furtive's clarficiation re making a joke feels a little bit overly defensive to me? I know there was a vote for him afterwards but I feel like just about everyone would have been aware that it was a joke, and the follow-up afterwards feels slightly panicky.In post 16, furtiveglance wrote:My first post was a joke. I also think the greeting tell is is pretty stupid. "Hello All" wouldn't even qualify as an example. It was just a bit of meaningless content I came up with for us to read alignment into later.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Given the response post 98 got, I'm guessing some of you guys love your info votes. My point actually specifically applies to this situation. If we do go for 2 eliminations (bad idea), scum will be more than prepared to adapt to this situation - probably by not pushing anyone that hard and setting up miscondemns. This feels obvious to me. Can anyone who is demanding we use the extra kill actually convince me of their certainty we'll get mafia day 1? I think that's a really far-fetched notion.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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My point is there is no set way that mafia plays.In post 104, Radical Rat wrote:
Are you actually suggesting that there's no difference between town and scum voting behavior?In post 98, furtiveglance wrote:Let me just say, I am very cautious of anyone peddling the holy grail of 'info'. It's become a buzzword that scum (and town for some reason) love to hold up as the key to town winning the game. The fact is, we aren't robots. Town push town, scum push town, town defend town, scum defend town. So the idea of just voting someone at random for 'info' is inherently stupid and pointless. I'm pretty sure that if we end up double eliminating today two townies will die, and people will use the VCA as a tool to further their own scum agenda/town tunneling anyway. A much better idea is to no eliminate first, then agree on one vote.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All Trades
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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From Titus, 93 is really bizarre. Calling Flea scum for strategic difference of opinion is a massive leap, then voting for me just because I'm the one vote going. Seems really bloodthirsty-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Radical Rat or TitusIn post 171, Dunnstral wrote:
We're still going to have to vote someone after this. Who should that player be?In post 167, furtiveglance wrote:I don't really know what to say at the moment, I'm waiting for someone to hammer No Eliminate. Not really sure why I'm the other option, hence my wariness of RR and Titus which I mentioned before. Notably they didn't engage with that, Radical Rat preferred to talk mech. Go figure.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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1) To suggest I am acting disingenously is very offensive and slander. I am pointing out the situation, which is that I am the only player with any votes. So a pivot isn't gonna happen now, even if I wanted one.In post 172, Dunnstral wrote:Acting like the only choices are you or no eliminate is disingenuous
2) I don't want to eliminate. For the very simple reason that town always get voted day 1.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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This is blatantly accusing me of being mafia. I strongly object to this gross mischaracterisation of my valid viewpoint. I think what you're suggesting is that 2 dead town is better than 1 dead town today because we'd get more 'information' and 'data' - I already explained how these buzzwords are a common tool of the mafia to further their agenda.In post 173, Titus wrote:
That's because he doesn't want something. He wants the game to stagnate and have no information.In post 172, Dunnstral wrote:Acting like the only choices are you or no eliminate is disingenuous
Someone should die tonight. If we had any real discussion whatsoever then we'd at least have data from someone who mafia thought was skilled town.
Does no one else think this post is incredibly scummy? It's outright telling someone else that I'm scum.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I don't understand. Do you think Dunnstral is definitely town for some reason? If so why?In post 178, Alianna wrote:I also think 173 clears Dunnstral, as much of a strawman as 172 was.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I know we will eliminate after no eliminating. You can obviously see what I'm trying to say, 2 eliminations is worse than one. Don't twist my words. I don't want this to be another game where it devolves into arguments about semantics. I never said I had no choice but to no eliminate, it's what I want to do.In post 182, Dunnstral wrote:
There is going to be an elimination regardless. If we no eliminate here, we still have to eliminate today. Putting it off won't make it go away, and you're likely still going to be voted for by Radical Rat and Titus.In post 175, furtiveglance wrote:
1) To suggest I am acting disingenously is very offensive and slander. I am pointing out the situation, which is that I am the only player with any votes. So a pivot isn't gonna happen now, even if I wanted one.In post 172, Dunnstral wrote:Acting like the only choices are you or no eliminate is disingenuous
2) I don't want to eliminate. For the very simple reason that town always get voted day 1.
It's not slander. Saying the pivot won't happen and so you have no choice but to no eliminateisdisingenuous. If you changed your mind, we could probably eliminate somebody else.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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and I can refute all of those baseless arguments. If I was scum with nothing to say, I wouldn't say that. The gamestate was stale and I commented on it. So what. It's a well known fact that town is eliminated day 1 in most games. I also have the added knowledge that I'm town. The most redundant of your arguments against me seems to imply that I was against using the double elimination just because I was the most popular vote. This is false. I always wanted to No Eliminate first, and stated that at the time. As for my outrage at being called scum, Titus' read had no basis or explanation. So yes I was baffled. As for not pushing my current reads, I really don't know what you mean. I've been consistent on voting No Eliminate, and I've also been open with my reads on players, even asking others to comment on them. So I did push there without being prodded.
In other words, get your murderous hands off me you greedy opportunist.
Yes I know I how I sound. I think it's warranted if you actually read the game though, and see how unfairly I'm being treated.
I am sure that town are smart enough not to condemn me here anyway, so have fun being left looking desperate and exposed.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I do want your townread. I feel threatened.In post 196, Alianna wrote:
I don’t know anymore. I was mostly townreading you because you were advancing the game and I agreed with your sus on Titus.In post 195, furtiveglance wrote:Alianna do you think I'm town?
You seem to be playing slightly differently than the last two games (in general, not just recently), but then again, so am I. I’m probably going to do some meta research tomorrow.
191 and 193 have not convinced me you’re town. No further comment.
Could you explain why you asked me this question? This and 25 give me the impression that you really want me to TR you.
Please pardon my late-night stream of consciousness posting.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I just like defending myself. I know you're not really meant to, but I do it nonetheless. I don't really understand this criticism either. I just went through Dunnstral's weak scumcase on me and dismissed it. What metagame knowledge have I appealed to?In post 206, Flea The Magician wrote:
I'm getting the same vibe as I got from you in the Muses game here. you're trying to use general game mechanics and metagame knowledge to defend yourself.In post 193, furtiveglance wrote:and I can refute all of those baseless arguments. If I was scum with nothing to say, I wouldn't say that. The gamestate was stale and I commented on it. So what. It's a well known fact that town is eliminated day 1 in most games. I also have the added knowledge that I'm town. The most redundant of your arguments against me seems to imply that I was against using the double elimination just because I was the most popular vote. This is false. I always wanted to No Eliminate first, and stated that at the time. As for my outrage at being called scum, Titus' read had no basis or explanation. So yes I was baffled. As for not pushing my current reads, I really don't know what you mean. I've been consistent on voting No Eliminate, and I've also been open with my reads on players, even asking others to comment on them. So I did push there without being prodded.
In other words, get your murderous hands off me you greedy opportunist.
Yes I know I how I sound. I think it's warranted if you actually read the game though, and see how unfairly I'm being treated.
I am sure that town are smart enough not to condemn me here anyway, so have fun being left looking desperate and exposed.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Listen, Malcolm. Mafia chose to give us an extra kill today. So who would be pushing a miscondemn hardest today? Mafia. It's that simple for me. If I gave town an extra kill I wouldn't want to waste it. I think the stance (trying to put me in the ground) is badly motivated. So yeah. That's just how I see the game.In post 212, MalcolmTucker wrote:@Furtive - do you not think it looks slightly suspect that so far your approach has basically been to accuse the players who just happen to have completely contradictory stances to you? For me it's making me second-guess you being mafia because it feels like too blatant an approach for scum, but it is not helpful here and does not make your case look good.
Expanded reads would be something like this: Flea strong townread, you strong townread, Goldfish/Alianna probs town, Cat.jpeg being a bit weird, and the people trying to kill me look sus. Yeah they do, I'm not gonna pretend they don't. They want to condemn a town for no good reason. That's a perfectly reasonable basis for suspicion.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I do know that. But take a look at my other games. Mewbie 2092 for instance. When RCEgnima started pushing me, I didn't like it and they ended up being scum. Mafia don't usually bus day 1, so they have to push town. Obviously it's hard to differentiate town pushing me from scum pushing me. But look at Radical Rat for instance. They just seem unneccessarily aggressive, it looks like scum bravado. Plus they still never responded to me about it.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Titus should be voting for Flea btw, if you go back and check. They disagreed with Flea then voted me.In post 226, MalcolmTucker wrote:Currently there's Titus voting you because they think you're scum trying to steer us away from an elimination. RR's vote at the start seemed to be on a more policy basis. It's not just mindless sheep hopping onto you for the sake of it as you seem to be suggesting.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I think it was this post.In post 6, furtiveglance wrote:so we get 2 eliminations today. That's interesting. How about anyone who leads on town gets quickhammered afterwards?
Why would anyone in their right mind think that was a serious suggestion?
Radical Rat, did that really not read like a joke to you?-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All Trades
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"
For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.
My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I don't like this readslist. It looks calculated, and not in a good way. It actually looks like an exercise I'd do if I was scum - rank players from hardest to easiest to mislim.In post 281, Radical Rat wrote:In post 279, furtiveglance wrote:Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"
For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.
My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.
Oh no, that wasn't a full readslist or anything, just my current scumpool.
Actual readslist would look something like this:
Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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You could have made this list pre-game, looking at past games. It doesn't reflect at all on the gamestate - the only link is me being bottom and you sussing me. The other reads come out of nowhere. I don't see a natural thought process here or any explanation. I will one up you tomorrow and show you what a real readslist looks like.In post 293, Radical Rat wrote:
You think maybe that might be because scum finds it easiest to mislim players who look scummy?In post 285, furtiveglance wrote:
I don't like this readslist. It looks calculated, and not in a good way. It actually looks like an exercise I'd do if I was scum - rank players from hardest to easiest to mislim.In post 281, Radical Rat wrote:In post 279, furtiveglance wrote:Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"
For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.
My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.
Oh no, that wasn't a full readslist or anything, just my current scumpool.
Actual readslist would look something like this:
Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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First of all sorry if I've annoyed anyone so far. Some of my posts were pretty barbed looking back.
Some thoughts on players from their ISOs - I'll watch out for sus behaviour
GoldfishFromtheMoon: Plays really openly. I'd be surprised if people push Gold this game. I only see town here. There's nothing informed, guarded or calculated about their posting and it shines through. I'm confident in this townread. Off limits, not to be miscondemned.
MalcolmTucker: Seems pretty reasonable. I can't find fault with anything here - reads are well-reasoned and looking back makes some of the things I said sound a bit stupid. Some scum play like this, but Malcolm's play here is pretty similar to 2088 which I reread recently. Will probably become a universal TR I should think. Cool.
Titus: Really annoying me if that's OK to say but I think they might be town. Stuff like 140, 173 is so illogical/unwarranted/aggressive/scathing that it doesn't really come from scum. Seems to think everyone is 'throwing' by not using the extra vote. Given that most of town is wary of scum pushing through an extra miscondemn today, wouldn't be talking like this if scum. Reluctant townread, but playstyle is really bizarre and they need to calm down/accept other people's opinions.
FleaTheMagician: played with Flea who was in a hydra before. Seem pretty similar this game. I agree with them about not using the extra vote. It's possible that they set that up as a dragon for them to slay - 121 for instance. I get the feeling I'll go back and forth on Flea, especially having stronger gut townreads, but they can have town status for today.
Alianna: I haven't yet played with scum!Alianna. I don't think I am this game either. Tone and style match previous town games. My read here could change depending on flips, it's not as strong as others. But I do get a town vibe. It's the little comments and irreverent humour I've seen before. There's also a parallel between 178 and a comment town!Alianna made in a previous game.
Dunnstral: Having trouble reading this one. The way they're playing is pretty steady and could easily be replicated as scum. They need to do more to be moved out of null, but I don't want to eliminate them today either.
Cat.Jpeg: Playing a safe game right now. Trying to look busy. This can come from town, just not usually. Crossreferencing their posting with Mewbie 2092 (our previous game together) makes me really uneasy. They're not playing in the same way at all. Obviously the atmosphere is different this game, but they seem a bit stiff/awkward here. I think it's nervous scum, the other explanation is they haven't settled into the game yet. which would be fair as it's been a bit hostile (myself included). but yeah. personality has completely changed since 2092. scumread.
: How could you seriously think my joke about quickhammering was a 'scum motivated suggestion'? - 71. I don't like the wording here, especially 'quite possibly'. Tone is confrontational in places - look at 104. Refusal to engage with my ideas about 'info'. Instead sees an easy pointscoring opportunity by making a moot point. Most of their ISO is mech talk - which is kinda understandable in this setup - but not towny - and as for their reads, they voted me based on their own mistake which they admitted, but then are clinging to scumreading me because my reaction was apparently 'weird'. great. I already said their expanded reads look opportunistic and inauthentic. Radical Rat is my preferred elimination. I'm not the type of player to be 100% on every read I make, but I'd be surprised if they flip town.
Radical Rat
TLDR is it's Cat and Rat. Together. Both of them. Vote them.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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The difference is Titus clearly has drive, passion. Radical Rat is going through the motions and taking what they can get. It's night and dayIn post 305, Cat.Jpeg wrote:The first two people in your list are the two who didnt have a vote at the end of the ability phase. Also you townread titus for having 'illogical/unwarranted/aggressive/scathing' posts but scumread RadicalRat for what sounds like the same thing. What's the difference between them?-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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Understood.In post 317, Radical Rat wrote:@furtive
I'm going to have to ask that you just take me at my word as far as misunderstanding your joke. I'm autistic and sometimes I misinterpret jokes that seem obvious to others, especially through text where I can't listen for inflections. If you think I'm scummy for not backing down after catching that, that's fine, but I'd appreciate you not accusing me of faking simple misinterpretations like that.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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I've had this problem a few times - "Why are you being so defensive/if you were town you'd have the scumteam solved and be furiously pushing your scumreads" etc. I like defending myself, especially when people aren't pushing me for good reasons (imo of course). If we all ignored people's pushes on us and attacked someone else instead, the game would be pretty chaotic.In post 318, Radical Rat wrote:
To address this point, and also Flea's request for more than "too defensive,"In post 304, furtiveglance wrote:they voted me based on their own mistake which they admitted, but then are clinging to scumreading me because my reaction was apparently 'weird'. great.
It's just the defensiveness alone, it's the nature of the defense. Like, you start out with just blatant OMGUS, and only very recently started to branch out from that. It felt like you were more concerned with getting people off of you than onto scum, and that's a strange attitude for Town to have so early on with only a couple votes actually on you.
That, and the way you approached the no lim, framing analysis of a potential elimination as useless because both alignments vote both ways sometimes. Which is true, but if that really made analysis useless Mafia as a game wouldn't really work. Everyone else seemed to agree that it would be useful, just not worth the numbers disadvantage, which I think iswrong,but makes sense. Saying nothing matters and there's no useable information to be gleaned feels like an attempt to stoke apathy and discourage pressure and scumhunting.
As for your actual points - my initial apprehension was towards people pushing hard for an elimination. It only happened to be omgus because they were pushing my elimination.
As for the idea that if we miscondemned twice today, the votecounts would somehow starkly reveal the scumteam, it's really naive and almost indefensible for me. Using the extra elimination would most likely end up with two dead town. I stand by this. I haven't discouraged pressure and scumhunting at all, I've been open with reads and tried to create discussion.-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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