Open 670: Near Vanilla (Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Hellfire Missile

In a game where the only Town PRs are protective a super-messy and dangerous weapon is obv-Scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

We should lynch Hellfire.

Replacing out there is a scum claim.

I thought so also but then I saw this ...

Subject: Ban/Restriction Announcements

Hellfire Missile has been banned for hiding identity from the staff. Please see this rule change for more information.

He will need to be replaced in any game he is currently in.

[MagnaofIllusion]

OMG IT'S GODZILLA!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Magna

MoI versus

Bambi

Toto

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Nebula

– Couple of questions

1. Why did you unvote Music Box but not vote LUV when you were pointing out LUV for something tha t looks like you are calling suspect behavior?
2. Do you think there is isn’t a potential to get information from an early game (basically RVS) wagon?

[MagnaofIllusion]

And now that Hellfire's ban has been retroactively reversed I'm not moving my vote as that replace-out is scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1.) I unvoted Music Box because I had no reason to have a vote on her. That was done by my predecessor. I haven't voted for Lil Uzi Vert because:
a.) He has yet to respond to my question.
b.) I do not really have a basis at this point to believe that I should be voting for him.

So you don’t believe in voting early is a benefit to the game and Town’s ability to form reads? What is your Mafia experience (aka are you an Alt)?

2.) I do not see what information can be gained simply from starting a wagon on anyone without basis.

Potentially tons. Especially info that can be mined down the line when players (especially the wagonee) have flipped.

Aside from the fact that they are statistically more likely to be on someone who is town, I cannot think of why they would be.

Statistically any wagon in the game is more likely to be on scum than Town. That’s how an informed Minority works. But the fact that you can’t think of any real reason why they are detrimental makes me wonder why you are so opposed to early voting.

I am not sure how this makes sense if the replace-out was not voluntary.

How exactly do you know that replace-out was not voluntary? I had assumed so given the Ban but the quick reversal (which is a first to my knowledge) puts that assumption in serious doubt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Statistically any wagon in the game is more likely to be on scum than Town.

Errr ... this was supposed to say "Statistically any wagon in the game is more likely to be on

Town

than

scum

".

[MagnaofIllusion]

Deciding if LUV is scum for 75 for attempting to portray what clearly was a joke as a “misrep”.

--

The replacement statement from Creature came 31 minutes after Hellfire Missile's last post and 17 minutes after the original ban announcement. One should logically conclude that, due to the temporal proximity of the ban announcement to the replacement statement, and Hellfire Missile's recent participation, that his replace-out was not voluntary.

Actually you are making large leaps to arrange this as an assured thing.

1. All your post timing assumes all involved were on and immediately acted. For all you know Hellfire MIssle requested replacement immediately at the same time as his prior post and Creature only posted it when he did simply because he first saw it then.

2. Furthermore when a player is generally replaced in a game for a ban the language used is “Player X has been replaced due to a ban” or similar. Creature’s post specifically mentioned Hellfire actively sought replacement.

Now it isn’t completely outside the realm of possibility that Hellfire actively sought a replacement because he knew a ban was incoming and was being upstanding. But it certainly isn’t outside the realm that Hellfire panic replaced under pressure and the ban timing was coincidental.

I also have not expressed opposition to early voting.

Absolutely you have, at least implicitly. You actively unvoted because “you didn’t have a good reason to be voting”. In the early stages there aren’t ever going to be “good reasons” outside of moving the game forward and looking for reactions.

However, does not the fact that the majority of the player base understanding that we are in RVS, and thus votes amounting to almost nil in terms of sincerity, negate the intended outcome?

No. Pressure is pressure even if it is brought in early RVS. Scum and Town both have been hammered in RVS on this site.

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Lil Uzi Vert - Randomly voted Music Box. I've played with him before, and this is far out of character for him.

Far out of character for him how? Further if it isn’t alignment indicative (which is the inference I am getting from you lack of voting) why even bring it up?

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I didn't want to be on that wagon cause I didn't want to play this game apart of an early wagon?

The way you handled that wagon is suspect Hawk. You actively acknowledged it while not RVSing and came back to RVS in a later post. It shows what I see as calculation in your approach in RVS. Which is more likely (if only a bit) likely to come from scum than Town IMO.

@ the four people who haven't posted.

LURKERS ARE SCUM AND WILL BE ELIMINATED IF YOU DO NOT CONTRIBUTE QUALITY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS GAME!!!! I mean... uhhhh please get in here and post. I know some may not have gotten an message like for some reason I just got the email letting me know I had the message for this game lol

Lurker hunting less than 24 hours after a game has opened and no-one can possibly be due a prod?

VOTE: Hawk

Over the top LAMIST combined with your RVS play makes this my first earnest vote of the game.

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The hawk is town. Hawk get your vote off me so I can sheep you.

Oh really? Please quote his posts before 55 that you think are indicative of Town and explain why. If anything he’s on the scum side of Null for me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The LAMIST comment I made was intended to be a joke but I guess it wasn't funny to you :/. People have said before I have a low tolerance for Lurking so I was poking fun at myself.

Link to any completed game where anyone other than yourself as said you have a low tolerance for Lurking please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Godzilla, get off hawk. Im ok with with uzi.

Oh really? Please quote his posts before 55 that you think are indicative of Town and explain why.

--

Thank you, Creature. MagnaofIllusion, this should bring one point of discussion to rest.

Yes, it does.

[MagnaofIllusion]

CONFIRM MAFIA GOON,,

Frederick is my SCUMBUDDUY,,

VOTE: FREDERICK B CAMPBAGE

Do you think that this is good Town play (assuming you want people to believe you are Town for this sort of crap)? Obviously I do not. Congratulations you now get a deep meta dive from me. The purpose – to determine what ratio of past games you have made these sort of posts in. Of those I find will tell me if you just are just following some other terrible example on site or actively have used this sort of play in the past. Rest assured – if I find that you have done this more as scum than Town in the past then I will be locking my vote on you and pushing through your wagon today.

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@Nebula

– why did you bother to directly lie to me about your Alt status? 49 clearly is complete falsehood given your slip. What possible Town motivation could you possibly have for that deception?

I do not believe that you are actually a Mafia Goon, and I am assuming that you made that statement in an effort to appear more "town." What are your thoughts on the game so far?

Why would you ever think that sort of statement should make anyone appear “more town”?

Hawk and I are forming a townbloc. I think KainTepes can join.

By association, Frederick is also allowed in.

Whoever else wants to apply may do so via PM (don't do that btw, you'll be mod killed).

The bolded I find especially suspect.

VOTE: Nebula

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Where am I coasting along, and couldn't the same argument be made for LUV?

The same argument could be made about multiple players. Why specifiy LUV in this response?

--

Why not engage Nebula who was being Wagon'd or someone else?

You chose to not engage the Nebula slot … and you ostensibly are presenting yourself as Town. Why is it questionable for someone else to engage away from there also?

Who else should Music Box engaged on page 2? I’ve already stated I found your play suspect. That’s a great place IMO for someone wanting to find alternate places to scum-hunt early to have gone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna what do you think of Lowell's minimal explanation for his sheepy read and vote?

I think it is typical Lowell. I'm keeping an eye on his posting as I have a fairly good idea how scum-Lowell approaches the game. And that approach will take a couple of days and flips to figure out. I'm not sure I'll be around that long so I don't want to spend to much more time on the subject. Suffice it to say nothing so far says "Lynch him" to me as of now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not a straight up lie. I said I haven't played this style before...which I have not. I hate making walls and expressing my thought processes. That said, it was deceptive but I had created this alt to get away from associations with the main. The deception was necessary. Obviously, that's out the window now.

This sort of tap-dancing is scummy as was your response back at 49. There is no disadvantage for you having said "Yes, I am an Alt that I am not disclosing" and left it at that. It would have answered my questions about experience. Instead you tried to "language lawyer" your response that while not necessarily incorrect via exact wording standards clearly was meant to be deceptive.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Of course it was deceptive. I pointed that out. The playstyle I was trying go for required the deception. I make no apologies for that. For you to try and read alignment based on that is just bad.

Just because you were playing as a secret alt doesn’t require you to lie about your alit status. And trying to handwave it as “required deception” is ludicrous.

It was towny. I don't see why scum would start locking themselves into stances that early on. Of course, I had been drinking at the time, and now that I look back on it - there are no stances, more of a regurgitation of actions. So, probably not towny in retrospect.

If anyone can’t see the self-contradiction in this post (“Here’s a reason it was Townie … but I was drinking at the time so now it is not so Town”) I can’t help them.

Your scenario requires that I hardclaim and get CC'd. Then I would 1v1, the real PR would end up getting lynched, and I would get lynched the next day. You are missing the most salient point - I would have to hardclaim - and the softclaim becomes effectively useless. So, again, I ask, what town motivation do you have for putting the spotlight on something you view as a softclaim?

Look I don’t think you were soft-claiming (you are scum for other reasons) but this is a bizarrely dumb line of attack. Keep in mind the whole point of Toto’s logic is that down the line when you hardclaimed in your 1v1 battle with the actual PR you could point back to your soft-claims as evidence to support yourself. Exactly what you conclude with the line “the real PR would end up getting lynched”. Every point he is making you agree with but somehow you are peddling “You are wrong”.

--

if only one scum is left jailer is almost a cop.

Proper JK play in the set-up is to operate as a protective role (enabling possibly two Town players to be protected from the Nightkill) until two scum are lynched. Each JK after that becomes a quasi-Cop as the JK should be targeting the scummiest remaining players who are unlikely to be Nightkill targets.

Nebula softclaimed twice now. It only makes sense if he is a jailkeeper. Doctor would not softclaim this early.

Realistically you aren’t gaining traction on your “Nebula scum-slipped” angle. If you didn’t think that would you still be voting Nebula?

--

Go wagon, go.

VOTE: sesq

Just dropping this here for my own review if Nebula flips scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want to see where Nydush and Elaine’s reads fall once they are fully caught up with the thread.

Outside of Nebula I think my biggest reads as possible scum right now are LUV and Kain Tepes. LUV has basically been skating by being active and posting fluff (290 and 317 being the most recent examples). I still think the whole accusation of a misrep back on Page 2 is scummy. I also think relationally his hop onto Sesq and the timing of said hop is telling if Nebula is indeed Mafia.

Kain on the other hand didn’t even blink at my declaration that I was digging into his completed games looking for instances of “claiming of scum” to see they were potential alignment indicators. It didn’t but what I did notice is that Town Kain tends to be more OMGUSy and self-aware than scum Kain. The fact that he didn’t make any comment at all about my threat to potentially push through a lynch on him (even to say “You will not find anything”) has me leaning scum.

@LUV

– So regarding 289 I find it hard to believe you are floating “Town don’t misrepresent and prefer clarity” after Questionable Content Mafia …

Riley I think may be Town just for 310. Although our posting styles and reasoning are way different she’s onto two of my three scum suspect independently. Although for the record I am reading Riley as “Alt with a gimic”.

Riley

– are you an Alt?

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@hawk, riley has a newbtown vibe he just can't hide.

toto looks good in his latest push on nebula.

nydush's posts are an absolute nonfactor. congrats if that's what you were going for. even while reading them I forget what they're about. posts like 252 feel entirely contrived.

fos nydush
fos nebula

So Lowell … talk to me. You are FOSing Nebula right here while voting for Sesq (the other competing wagon). Do you realistically think Sesq and Nebula are scum partners? If so why are you supporting the smaller wagon. If not why FOS Nebula?

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He seemed to be the only person who was really fitting that role at the time. Would be glad to hear who you think also qualifies.

I think Riley and BBT both would have easily fit that profile at the time you originally posted that. Both have been posting more effectively since then but at that point I was curious why neither twigged you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nebula came to mind when he softclaimed again. I dismissed the RVS one because it wasnt so strong. But when he did it again I had to bring it up.

Mafia has a lot to gain breadcumbing a fake claims. It draws the real doctor and makes them waste their protection. It helps mafia in case they are forced to hardclaim we could end up lynching the jk first. There may be scenarios where trading with a jk in this setup is beneficial for mafia.

Also I dont believe penguin is a dumb player. Either he didnt softclaim or he is scum.

Where did I generalize?

You aren't answering my question - do you have other reasons besides what you see as the scummy softclaim to think he is scum? If so please point me to where in your ISO I can see them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You are a much better player than to take this bait.

So your stance is scum never lurker hunt? Since we to my mind have never crossed paths in game (unless you are yet another Alt … I so grow tired of them) I’d like clarity on that issue.

That's convenient.

Your point? I’m curious again about what this comment is supposed to convey since it is clear as mud.

I can understand the point you're coming from but I don't think it's necessarily scummy. Just self-motivated. I'm very concerned that you're implying that you don't understand the difference when you're asking Riley if she's an alt in your next post with the same status as Nebula was.

Please explain how it isn’t scummy given exactly what I said – no-one knowing the slot is a hidden alt matters on lick to the effect using an alt is meant to achieve. Yet instead he chose to specifically go out of his way to make it appear that he was not an Alt. That’s potentially seeking to specifically look to gain the “Newb Halo” when it isn’t warranted which is scummy play.

--

I'm saying that if he flips PR, the conversation you had with him about claiming was essentially noise.

This is not a Town take on how to read Toto if Nebula was to flip Town PR. Not even close. It’s coming from the standpoint that Toto was absolutely Town making the thread clogged with nose. Not even a hint of a thought that Toto could be scum making sure his partners didn’t miss PR crumbs.

--

P-edit i did not like his forced tone and also the fact he lied about being a alt.

Ok, thanks for the info.

Question for you regarding soft-claiming … have you never seen VT players trying to draw Nightkills in this manner? I mean it is bad play but it happens. Hell – I can link you to a recent game where a VT claimed Mason to attempt to draw a kill when protecting the Mason was mostly pointless. So it happens. I just wanted to be sure you are not putting all your eggs on Nebula-as-scum based on something that can realistically come from a Town player.

That said I don’t think that his reaction to your putting what you think were soft-claims out in the spotlight (basically calling it dumb) is that of a gambiting VT.

--

Meh. I cbd'f to respond to all this nonsense. Magna is prob!scum because he should know better than to argue NAI points and he's twisting things to make them scummy instead of addressing them on face value.

So basically what you are doing is just handwaving as fast as you can. Noted.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Riley

– I asked you a question in 331 . Please answer it. You did say you love talking …

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I will policy lynch Riley at any point in the game without question btw

Perhaps scum as well …

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Nebula’s 403 makes me very content with my vote. Rather than make it any easier for Town to properly identify that his posting is from a scum perspective he goes to “generic comment” mode with a nice side of “Appeal to Repetition” thrown in for good measure.

The fact that one of the few actual quotes he used specifically shows it isn’t coming from a Town perspective (which Toto immediately pointed out and Nebula could never adequately answer) is icing on the cake.

In an effort to be less distracting - I'm done responding to Sesq and Toto for the rest of D1.

Thanks, both.

Translation – I don’t want to be lynched and put my Mafia partners at a huge disadvantage going into Night 1 so I’m going to disengage.

--

We've definitely crossed paths - I took a hiatus for the end of 2015 and most of 2016. Most of our games are from 2012.

Hmmm … I didn’t realize you were a 2010 join date. Thanks then I will go poking around some old games to get a feel for you as a player.

Why can't he just not be trying to sound like a player with a past meta? There are so many reasons that could be rather than what you're implying.

Now look at who is trying to split hairs. The whole point of a hidden Alt is to break from past meta. Being hidden specifically does that. No need to lie about it one iota. There is not a single reason you have yet to bring up that him saying “Yup, hidden Alt.” doesn’t accomplish that justifies the “LAWYER LAWYER EXACT WORDS LITERAL GENIE” way he answered the direct question.

--

What's the point of this wall of text?

To get a further read on you and your playstyle by your reaction. The fact that you didn’t even address the question there and are saying it is a “Wall of Text” isn’t productive IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I know Riley, and she does just kind of act like this, I haven't seen anything suspicious. Hawk brought up a point with Kain's meta I thought was interesting though.

How do you know Riley if this is her first game on site again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can we get votes back on Nebula? The yo-yoing back and forth onto and off of the wagon makes it easier for scum Nebula to escape the rope today …

This is just plain bad. To call a legit response to your question a slip is ew-worthy. He's spot on that no one except scum knows alignment, and so it scummy to line up lynches.

So Toto is scum then?

@Hiraki

– Same question to you ….

This is scum flailing.

Buzzword detected …

--

Am I reading into this too much guys?

Looking at what you posted, reading it in context and assessing Sesq’s response my thoughts are – yes. Her explanation looks at least as likely, if not moreso, than what you think was going on there.

--

Right - there is no need to lie about it. We agree with this. We disagree in the fact where I do not necessarily think it is scummy to lie about it and you believe that lying about it is scummy.

Well I guess we will be agreeing to disagree. If Town Nebula has no reason to lie then unless you want to float Nebula = idiot Town lying just to lie for the lulz (which I don’t believe given the little I have seen of Nebula) then the logical conclusion is there is scum motivation in the deception.

Because he's been posting good and I haven't seen any major faults with his play.

Hmmm … need to mull this response over …

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Toto is scum then?

Toto is probs just

bad town.

I think he thinks he caught scum and now he's in a death tunnel.

Can we get more votes here people? He's just come off saying that "Lining up lynches is scummy" (which it isn't inherently .. it is NAI) but refers to a post from over 200 posts ago in response to my question. He repeatedly pointing to things about Toto's play and calling them scummy but says "Toto is just bad Town".

Aka behavior of scum who knows someone's alignment and thus bends over backwards to get the correct read despite the what they say about the other player's behavior.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In my experience, this is the default response for someone who hasn't deeply read into anyone, or

is covering their scum partner

. Probably the latter.

After some reflection I disagree with the bolded.

Hiraki has placed himself in the middle ground. They are calling Nebula Town but using weak justification for doing so. That's the worst possible play for a partner. Nebula stands a more than reasonable chance of being hung today. If Nebula flips scum then Hiraki has made the short-list for partners based on how weak his stance on Nebula Town is. And Nebula flpping Town doesn't earn him much of anything in the way of "correct read cred" for the same reasons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – Will be V/LA from 4:30pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend V/LA

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA …

@Anyone who scum reads both Nebula and Hiraki

– get back on Nebula. Splitting the votes between both just means that neither one will get any significant momentum.

For the amount of pages that accumulated over the weekend there wasn’t nearly as much actual content as I expected. Way too much empty back on forth style one-lining. Could we reduce the amount of that please?

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I agree with this. I want more pressure on this slot.

Ironic then that you haven’t done anything to actually pressure Kain.

--

You don't lie about your role if you are town

unless you really know what you are doing.

Fixed this for you …

--

I haven't seen so much wall posting (or quote walls) in a thread before it looks like there's a lot but maybe it's just me taking in the info wrong. don't really have any confident scumreads at the moment have a tr on Toto and Hiraki

don't really like a Hiraki wagon I do feel like nebula is scum Sesq seems to just feel like clueless town to me with the early claim and the way he's defending himself

In this case he's the judge of me and I don't really care if he townreads him doesn't change my outlook you can have reads that are 100% dif from mine if your actions line up nothing will change

Why would scum not want to do normal town things like explaining reads I don't see why scum would draw attention to themselves like that

Making up a read is quite easy wouldn't you agree if I was scum I would at least make sure to back up a claim I made. Scum think before they act Town act before they think

Yeah, probably scum … empty generalities and lack of anything that looks like trying to solve the game by finding scum.

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Nebula's decision to stop speaking about Toto and you was actually a town point for him. And he did chip in again when he thought it right to do so.

No, it isn’t a Town tell at all. Why would you pretend it was?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's very hard to pressure someone that doesn't show up though - no?

Nope. Voting is the only real way to pressure anyone in Mafia (especially this set-up) and you aren’t some Newb who doesn’t understand this. The fact that you give lip-service to pressuring Kain but don't actually want to focus your attention there is suspect.

She's the replacement for Frederick. Does that strengthen or weaken your SR on Nebula or the relation between the two?

Those reads are independent as it stands. But a quick look at both their ISOs shows me nothing that says “Not Possible Partners”.

What does her being a replacement have anything to do with anything Hiraki?

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I could sympathize with those who have issues with Hiraki but based on my experience with him, his play here isn't odd. His attitude and behavior is very similar to a game I played with him recently where he was town. I death tunneled him that game foolishly.

So a weak meta read with no scum-Hiraki component? Gotcha.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I honestly think you're wrong but you believe you're right and that's scary. I have a lot more to re read ( I did catch up but a lot of it was me just glazing the thread) so I'll take another look at him but I do think you're wring

Toto I think he's very obv town I think he believe's he's right it comes across super genuine I never see myself ever lynching him

Yeah this transition doesn’t feel natural in the least …

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I can explain; I don't think votes will be of much help.

Considering Kain's current content and meta, I believe that pressure by votes will always create bad reactions. It won't get him motivated into the game and it won't help anyone except the alignment that he's not part of.

Stating it is a more effective method but I can understand why you would think differently. I would do a quick read on Kain's meta if you aren't familiar with it already.

So your stance is that Kain Tepes is scum but you don’t want to vote him because that will not help anyone but the alignment he is not a part of. Aka Town ....

VOTE: Hiraki

[MagnaofIllusion]

After a wagon briefly appears on Elena, MoI shows up to vote her.

Insert OREALY Owl gif here …

I never voted Elena. Why do you think I did?

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Also MagnaOfIllusion you said that you thought elena's read progression was odd and forced, but there was 90 posts between the two statements you posted and a good lot of it was elena v toto, so it doesn't make absolutely no sense.

I disagree. Let’s look at the back and forth between Toto and Elena again … starts at 742 and ends at 833.

Please point out to me any posts by Elena that show indication that she is transitioning to a Toto-Town read. Because I don’t see it. 744 for example is very pointed in what I see as an assertion of Toto-not-Town. In fact 753 is a pretty strong inference that she was reading Toto as scum. During the back and forth both yourself and Toto actually vote her. She requotes 744 at 772. The back and forth that starts around 800 is certainly less pointed but I have a huge time seeing a transition from 753 where she’s implicitily stating Toto is scum to hard Town reading him.

Unless you think I am mis-reading 753 and 744 …

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ya said that someone scumreading nebula and hiraki should vote nebula!!! are ya not scumreading nebula?

True but I didn’t realize how far the Nebula wagon had fallen until after I made my catch-up post. Moving my vote to Hiraki made that wagon on scum actually viable to compete with the wagon both Nebula and Hiraki have parked their votes on.

grrrr!!! I am kind of weirded out that everyone is voting sesq but NO ONE is pushing her!!!! shouldn't ya be pushing the people you are voting??

That is a sign it is a bad lynch.

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? Just because someone is wrong means I can't townread them?

Of course not. But your language choice before where you emphasized how scary Toto was in being wrong and confident about it doesn’t transition well to a “He’s obv-Town”.

At what point did you start Town reading him? As I pointed out above - the language you used strongly indicated a scum read on him at 753.

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OK so let's get this straight:

1) You want me to vote someone other than my top SR at the moment.
2) You want me to vote Kain for pressure purposes.
3) You're SRing for me not pushing on one of your own SRs.

Nope. Not at all. I’m pointing out that your stance looks very much like what I expect from experienced scum who knows Kain’s reputation as lynch-bait. You state you are scum-reading the slot. You advocate that voting him is pointless and there are other ways to “push” scum-Kain. Yet there is no sign what said “methods” are. Frankly given you are parked on Sesq and doing nothing to show how she is scum any time recently I feel that this Kain scum-read is simply window-dressing for later. Nothing in your ISO shows me any scum-hunting in that direction at all.

This is very inconsistent. If this was multi-vote, I'd agree. It's not like I'm ignoring Kain - I'm just not voting. I'm doing pressure my own way.

Please demonstrate how you are doing ANYTHING to pressure him. It should be trivially easy. But looking at your ISO I don’t see it.

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You see that as funny and not AI?

Oh really. Please explain in detail because I’d like some words for you on this.

Is it scummy for me to move my vote from one scum candidate to another?

Is it scummy that I did so upon seeing said scum-read posting in scummy fashion and realizing that me moving my vote there made that wagon more viable than the one I was on against the mislynch being pushed by both my scum suspects?

Please elaborate on what you believe is the scum intent there …

I'm going to disengage from you again, as this is not helping move us forward. This isn't a court of law. Logic alone does not make a strong case. It's actually a horrible play to base your judgement on that alone given scum can manipulate.

Friendly reminder to everyone

– the tone here is not one used to address someone you think is scum. Nebula just got done calling Sesq “guaranteed scum”. This is addressing a town player.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna: Why won't you answer the question I asked you earlier?

I had to go back and figure out what exactly you are going on about. Because it is a fluff question that has no meaning. Can you find a single instance of me being “LULZ, IMMA RANDOM” junk player ever? I know you can’t as there isn’t a single instance in all my games.

Why ask and then pretend a question that was pointless to ask is important enough to repeat?

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You don't see how I've called out on Kain on everything that he hasn't done and how useless he's been this game?

Well let’s see …

m never a big fan of your play but this lackluster. Can you do something?

5. KainTepes - Null

So Kain is Null here.

This is a bad post - why on earth would you just flatout call two people that agree with you opportunistic? In review, these two people are:

A) Toto (again, I will revisit this in a futurepost)

B) Kain_Tepes

If you want to be fair, I can agree with B to an extent. But A? Here's what you've said about Toto in the past.

So some slight agreement with your top scum read that Kain’s vote on Nebula was suspect. Nothing strong here.

Are Sesq and Kain scum together?

List of things you've actually done today:

1) 2 Filler Posts (They're both filler and help with figuring out what post I'm talking about - thanks!)
2) RVS Vote
3) Asked someone not to use naughty language
4) Posed a question about something that was done in jest / reactionary
5) Voted on that query
6) Filler
7) Filler
8) Filler
9) Filler
10) Voted yourself (Filler)
11) Repeated a vote on Nebula
12) Response to Toto
13) Vote for Nebula (again)

And then we're at the part where I question how much you've done. Feel free to question anything that's wrong here but that's half of your posts being pretty filler.

Again this is hardly an indication that you are anything but annoyed with Kain.

Kain - I've gone over this. I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. I am getting much closer with being OK with a lynch on you if this is your play from hereon out. You were much better in that other game we played together.

So is this saying he’s scummy for playing as he is? Looks more like a policy lynch threat to me.

hikari is actually acting the same way as in the other game he was scum

We've played one game together where I was scum. I don't think meta is a useful tool, especially with no other games to counter the one viewpoint from, but to each their own.

Not calling him scum here … the fact that you say “to each their own” indicates you could see it coming from a mis-guided Town perspective.

Whatever you say, Kain.

Again – not even close to saying “This is scum”.

kaintepes is SCUM!!!!! they are intentionally not posting a lot!!! to cover up the fact that they are scum!!!!

I agree with this. I want more pressure on this slot.

And here is the quote that triggered this whole conversation in the first place.

So to say that your ISO shows a Kain Tepes scum read is very overstated. At best there is one, maybe two of these quotes that might … I repeat might … be an indication you think Kain could be scum. The rest is Null “Play better” empty posting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't see the links here. Good point about my wagon having little push, though, seems to be a pretty common town-wagon attribute

You don’t see that the tone in that post is not Town talking to someone they think is scum? He’s saying “Basing your play on logic alone is horrible play and scum can manipulate it”.

Do you think a Town player says to a scum suspect “Your approach is flawed because reliance on logic alone can be manipulated by your partners”? Not in a million years. Town says something like “You are trying to use an incorrect interpretation of Hammurabi’s law to push scummy wagons” if the person they are addressing is a scum suspect to them.

--

Still don't think Sesq is a good lynch but if we have to lynch her I guess I'll look at the case later but not liking it.

The only case you will find is “Lol, Sesq is scum” for the record.

--

It seems were at a stand still do you think there's more then 1 scum in the top 3 wagons?

Who is scum then? The Top Three wagons are Nebula, Hiraki and Sesq. You are voting Nebula still so I assume that

--

Oh yeah, forgot about Elena. She's town too.

Oh look, scum.

Everyone – pay attention to this

You forgot that Elena was Town in 890 after making 889 where you said Elena was “clear Town to you” in the same exact time-stamped minute? Nope. Not a chance in hell you make 889 the centerpiece of which is my scum read on Elena who you call Town and then convienently forget that she is Town in the same 60 second span if you are Town.

So which of Hiraki or Elena is your partner you are chainsawing for here?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nope. Kain and I are tied for third.

Lol.

One of you had a sizeable wagon that has gone down to 1 vote.
The other has only 1 vote for a substantial amount of time.

Yet you are saying "No, you can't say I'm the third wagon alone, me and Kain are tied" as if Hawk's recent move to Hiraki on this very page means your wagons have the same weight in how the game has actually unfolded?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's been so long, I forget. Let me ISO myself real quick.

"Quick let me check what fake reads I've been presenting ..."

Scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

magna, chaos, and sesq, in that order.

Anyone want to play "Spot the evidence showing that Lowell is scum" in this post.

Preview Edit - Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

IIRC, you wrote a post saying that you usually need a couple of flips/days before you can read Lowell accurately.

Why is this game different?

Because he screwed up and exposed himself today. My experience with Lowell scum is that he usually hangs back more effectively as scum.

Read the part of my 923 related to him for him for when he made this mistake.

His recent batch of posting only reinforces it for me. I mean – he couldn’t remember his reads from 48 hours ago and one of his three listed scum isn’t even a player in the game …

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Nebula

I’m movng my vote where it is best served currently. Nebula is my scum read that has the most viable wagon at this stage. If enough players from Sesq vote for Lowell I will quickly move my vote there. But I’m not risking leaving Sesq as the only strong wagon at this stage.

I also think Lucca’s lack of content after arriving to say “It will not take much time to catchup” and then providing nothing but a naked unvote is suspect.

--

Are you trying to imply that Kain is towntelling anywhere? You're acting like I'm fabricating a case on Kain. And again - with the threat of lynching (something that I can't do alone) what is Kain's response?

Nope. I don’t think Kain is capable of Town-telling personally. He’s a member of the Fraternity that includes the likes of Furculow and SnarkySnowman. Anyone who says they are easy to directly Townread from their play is fooling themselves or scum.

How you read these players is by seeing how they play and how players treat them. In your case I see a very seasoned player who is basically suggesting what amounts to a policy lynch on Kain but isn’t willing to actually drive it. Your explanation of course is that he “isn’t your top scum pick”. My issue is you aren’t even trying to drive said supposed top read’s lynch either. You are sitting back playing defense / being snarky. You haven’t provided anything related to why Sesq is scum for players to latch onto and help move his wagon forward. Which is exactly not what I would expect from a veteran Town player who has a solid scum read that is within viable lynching range.

So you are sitting on a wagon not moving it forward in any appreciable manner while softly suggesting that probably one of the biggest lynchbaits in the game is scum and doing little (from my perspective) to act on it today. Looks like laying the groundwork for a future lynch to me.

--

I like the Sesq wagon better, and I don't see Hiraki as a viable lynch at this point. We can explore D2.

Note – Nebula just got done complaining how votes hadn’t changed in 952 where Hiraki was a 4 vote wagon to Sesq’s 6. Yet the wagon isn’t viable.

Pretty big disconnect right there. Town Nebula who is Town reading Hirakia says “No, I think they are Town”. But Nebula doesn’t do that … he fabricates a reason not to move while leaving bussing opportunities for later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So where we stand now …

Votecount 1.10

Votecount 1.10

[0] Lil Uzi Vert
[0] BlueBloodedToffee
[0] lucca261
[0] MagnaofIllusion
[1] KainTepes - Riley Cake
[0] Lowell
[4] Hiraki - KainTepes, Toto, Sesq, MagnaofIllusion
[0] Riley Cake
[0] Toto
[6] Sesq - BlueBloodedToffee, Lil Uzi Vert, Music Box, Hiraki, nebula, Lowell

[L-2]

[2] nebula - Elena Fisher, Hawk
[0] Music Box
[0] Elena Fisher
[0] Hawk

[0] Nolynch

Not voting: lucca261

14 players are alive, therefore 8 votes is the majority.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-02-13 13:10:00)

Votes since …

958 – Toto votes Nebula (Neb +1, Hiraki -1)
963 – Sesq votes Nebula (Neb +2, Hiraki -2)
987 – Toto unvotes (Neb +1, Hiraki -2)
990 – Kain votes Nebula (Neb +2, Hiraki -3)
1014 – BBT unvotes (Neb +2, Hiraki -3, Sesq -1)
1028 – BBT votes Lowell (Neb +2, Hirakia -3, Sesq -1, Lowell +1)
1035 – MoI votes Neb (Neb +3, Hiraki -4, Sesq -1, Lowell +1)
1036 – BBT votes Sesq (Neb +3, Hiraki -4)

So the wagons stand at

Sesq (6) – LUV, Music Box, Hiraki, Nebula, Lowell, BBT
Nebula (5)- Elena, Hawk, Sesq, Kain, MoI
Kain (1) – Riley
Not Voting (2) – Lucca, Toto

I think it is important to note that looking at Sesq versus Nebula one of those players has been investigating multiple votes for scum reads while the other has set weakly on a wagon most of the day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

A Reminder to Everyone Just So No-one Misses It

It's been so long, I forget. Let me ISO myself real quick.

magna, chaos, and sesq, in that order.

Lowell went back to check his ISO for his scum reads and came up with MoI, Chaos, and Sesq.

Earlier he "forgot" he Town read Elena the same minute he called her "clear Town" and now get this --there isn’t anyone in this game that is even remotely close to “Chaos”.

This public service announcement about Lowell and his scum-fabricated reads has now concluded.

--

Happy Scumday Magna!

Thanks … 7 years ago today I decided “What’s the worst that can happen” and registered for this site …

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sesq (6) – LUV, Music Box, Hiraki, Nebula, Lowell, BBT

If I had the mystic power to kill myself and every player on a wagon I'd use it in an instant here.

Nebula, Lowell and Hiraki are all scummy as hell.
LUV is low key sliding by and would be a secondary pick for me (along with Elena) if I was wrong about any of the first three.
Music Box and BBT would most likely be collateral damage based on my reads right now.

But I'm confident at least 2/3 scum are here and I'd make a 2-5 trade any day of the week leaving Town in a 6 on 1 advantage if I didn't net all three scum with my move.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, I really don't think Nebula is scum.

Hiraki also looked town from what I read upon his replace in.

MB is also a lower level town read of mine. Lowell is the only person I really have a problem with on the Sesq wagon - I have no read on LUV so far.

Well then Princess Bride style "we are at an impasse" ...

I don't think Sesq is scum and I'm absolutely making sure that scum has to work their tail off to save Nebula by lynching Sesq. So I can't move to Lowell if doing so make it easier for scum to keep going "Come on end the day look Sesq is the only wagon of any size".

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Nebula has voted three different players, in each case being the first to vote them, and Sesq has voted four, but two of those were sheeping Toto.

Not sure about Lowell. Slips and mixing up games happen, but 1017 feels odd. Why didn't he just glance at his ISO before posting? I think scum would be more careful to check but this feels almost deliberate. Am I reading too much into it?

Nebula voted Sesq at 133. He OMGUSed me at 346 and retracted it at 403. So Nebula hasn’t voted “three different players”. And no, he doesn’t get credit for Hellfire’s RVS vote.

Meanwhile Sesq has voted Toto (84), Nebula (144), Elena (765), Hiraki (783), and Nebula again (963). Every vote move after his first Nebula vote as been while she is either the Top or Second wagon. Check through the Vote Counts yourself if you like.

Also their ISO are Night and Day. Sesq is engaging multiple players (questioning things she sees as suspect even from Town reads) and providing input on many fronts. Nebula is basically floating along and OMGUSing.

Want to fence-sit on Lowell harder? So you think he “went back to review his ISO” in this game as Town and came up with a player not in this game as a Top scum pick as Town? Really?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lucca.

Time to vote.

Time to provide content and reads for three scum suspects and any Town reads with reasoning.

FTFY

--

MoI, chances of Sesq and Nebula being town?

Part of me wants to make the smart ass statistical answer but I will pass on that.

Both of them? Maybe. It isn’t outside the realm of possibility that I’m wrong on Nebula and he’s just bad scummy looking Town. But I don’t see why you are seeing Town in his ISO. Can you point me to where you think you see Town motived posting? Like-wise Sesq’s posting looks Town to me for reasons I can now link – Karnos’s Nightless Vengeful Mayhem. Sesq was Town there and I misread her play and helped push for the Day 1 Vengeful lynch that ended up Vengekilling her.

If I’m wrong on Nebula and Lowell is scum I absolutely think that either Hiraki or Elena (or both) are scum with her. His “suspicions of me” coincided with when I moved my vote to Hiraki and started to push Elena. Feels like a chainsaw.

--

So, here's my maga problem, in a nutshell.

He's trying to casually call his OMGUS attack on me as some principled vote (which, hey, where was this before I called him scum?). Then instead of just leaving it there as a (mostly pointless but) largely harmless post he needs to clarify his LAMIST motivaitons with the last sentence. And he accuses me of being too careful? Yeesh.

Note what Lowell does say here and what he doesn’t. He throws down some buzzwording (that I’m OMGUSing when clearly that’s not the case, that I’m LAMISTing) but avoids answering how as Town he “forgot” his Townread on Elena in the same minute he called her Town or how his scum list includes a player not in this actual game. It goes to classic scum misdirection – if you can’t justify when your scum mistakes are identified you try to change the narrative and never acknowledge you’ve been busted.

--

Yep, four different players like I said, two of which were sheeping Toto. (That's three sheep votes if you include following Toto back onto Nebula, which I didn't earlier.) What was your point here?

The point is that Sesq’s play is much more likely to be Town than Nebula’s. I mean extraordinarily so. Sesq is a top wagon. Yet she’s not playing in a manner that says “Self Preservation” is her top priority. She’s willing to question and poke at a wide variety of players asking questions. Even looking at Town reads. And moving her vote when keeping Nebula a viable counterwagon makes much more sense as scum.

You keep saying “sheeping” as if that is some scum-tell. Do you think it is?

Yes, I'm fence-sitting here. Maybe slightly on the town side of the fence. Are you saying he is more likely to make that mistake as scum? I don't think so. It's more likely to be non-alignment indicative. I just had a bad vibe from his post.

I think it is clear as Day that he’s more likely to “forget” his strong Elena Town read in the same minute as he makes another post saying she is as scum. Because if he is honestly getting reads then he doesn’t forget it literally 59 or fewer seconds later. Read 923 again and tell me there is any Town train of thought to his play there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sesq has a lot of instances where he says things like - 'I don't know what I was thinking', 'I can't really explain it now' and 'Oh yeah, that was really bad posting from me'. Those types of comments don't sit well with me because it's a cop-out from explaining his reasoning.

Funny because I want you to look in Nebula's ISO see the large number of times he refuses to elaborate on why he thinks Sesq is scum. I wasn't kidding about him making comments like "My convincing case - I'm Town and Sesq is scum". If you think Sesq is bad for that I think your Nebula read is due for a retrofit.

Have you read the whole game? Since you are basing this on Nebula looking better in the very early interaction I'd like to know.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@magna, I don't know where you're going with this. Yes, I forgot my townreads. I actually

did

ISO myself. I'm in multiple games and I can't remember offhand the status of each one without reading back. That doesn't make my reads "fake". And, again, you're the guy saying I'm more polished when I'm scum. So what's your point here?

Nope this isn’t flying. You wrote 889 where you called Elena “clear Town to me”. AND IN THE SAME EXACT TIMESTAMP MINUTE you write 890 where you “forgot” that Elena was a Town read. The level of stupidity you are implying in doing so as Town I do not for a second believe.

Same with “I ISOed myself to get my scum reads and came back with Chaos who isn’t in this game”. It belies logic that you posted 1017 and managed to post 1020 two minutes later with a scum team of myself, Chaos and Sesq. There exists no single game that you could have “mistakenly” ISOed yourself to find those scum reads as this is the only game I am in with Sesq and I’m not playing any with both you and any player named Chaos.

Occam’s Razor says that you are scum fabricating your reads and that’s why you screwed these things up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Lowell

Screw it. Flash wagon this scum. BBT I am counting on you to move your vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

6 more votes people ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

So anyone not taking this stagnation in posting from many of the slots as a sign that the Sesq lynch is bad news needs a refresher in Mafia ..

--

44 pages and what you come up with is "oh on the last page Lowell didn't list one of his town reads. ergo scum."? Dig a little deeper.

And if you look to your left you can see Scum in its natural habitat. It is attempting to present a simplified version of the suspicion on itself as a means to discredit said suspicion. This maneuver of course if accompanied by the tell-tale stench of excriment that is required to craft it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyone with questions about a Lowell lynch please read this carefully. Thank you!

As well I don't buy the I forgot Elena as being simply that. If you are town and even if you're overwhelmed in another game (I can vouch he's in a game with a player named Chaos Im in that game too) And got confused for a second shouldn't your redux of why you left Elena off the list be I didn't. My post right above makes the assumption she is town these are just after thoughts I posted in addition. Instead you say I forgot Elena... no you didn't forget Elena.. you forgot that your line of thought included Elena anyway so you fix that post as a town list instead of an after thought which is how I read it the first time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Hapa

– Have you read the game in full? If so why no comment on Sesq, Nebula and the Lowell wagon alignment wise? If not why not?

Want to hear what some of my Town reads (Toto, Sesq) have to say before moving forward with a vote.

--

VOTE: Magna
I have more chance of lynching this over BBT

It’s cute that you think this …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Elena is my top scumread by far. I'm not going to post things that distract the town from how bad she looks unless I feel the town needs to hear something.

What do you think of my case? Surely you don't need the opinions on Toto/Sesq to tell me what you think about Elena.

Here’s my issue with the first part – there are more than 1 scum in this game. There also are a bunch of Town. Laser focus on a single slot to the exclusion of talking about anyone else in the game is not Pro-Town IMO. Especially from a slot that was not here all of Day 1. I need to be able to sort you and while an avalanche on one slot may be helpful depending on Elena’s alignment there is the possibility that refusing to give other reads is a scum strategy on your part.

I’ll review your case in full once I get input from my Town reads. I already had a soft scum read on Elena. Because today starting as it does after the way the day ended yesterday make me want to see if they are parsing what I am thinking.


--

Pedit: Well I have 2 completed games on this site showing you the rest would require me to out my alt.

Oh, this is a hidden alt? Any potential Newb shield I may have been factoring into my read on you is hereby eradicated.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Lowell

Screw it. Flash wagon this scum. BBT I am counting on you to move your vote.

Let's not forget this beautiful gem of coaching

@Mod do scum have daychat?

So let’s see … in 1160 you had already made the Coaching assumption. Which requires you knowing scum don’t have Daytalk. Because scum with Daytalk don't coach in thread ...

Which in itself is not troubling in the least since -

Mafia Goon

Welcome, [Player Name]. You are a

Mafia Goon

, along with your partners, [Player Name] and [Player Name]].

Abilities:

• Factional communication: During the night phase you may talk with your partners here.

• Factional kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partners may perform the factional kill.

Win condition:

• You win when all members of the town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occuring.

The Mod made it clear in 1 that was the case.

But then you come back with asking the Mod in 1178 which is suspect as heck. If you were Town who didn’t know (for whatever reason) you wouldn’t have made the Coaching accusation in the first place.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, can you show me where Nebula is calling Toto scummy after claiming they're bad town?

No, I can’t. I can show you how Nebula called Toto’s play scummy / anti-Town and then came to the conclusion that Toto was “bad Town” which is the point I made. Would you like that?

197 and 200 are the response to Toto’s calling out of Nebbie’s “soft-claim” as anti-Town and dumb.

220 indicates that Toto “dismissed” an earlier question and asks Toto what possible Town motive he would have for the “spotlighting the soft-claim”.

226 says that Toto is taking a quote “out of context”.

235 again questions whether there was any Town motive for the whole soft-claim spotlight.

271 claims Toto is “reaching” in his assessment. There is a comment about Sesq and “scum-theatre” that 275 indicates shows fake interactions between Sesq and Toto. To be scum theatre you need both players involved to be scum.

Finally in 346 we arrive at the post that originally made me think “Nebula is scum who is Town reading Toto for bad reasons”.

So Nebula spent a large number of posts continually asking Toto why he as Town would point out a soft-claim and called Sesq and Toto interactions scum theatre. Then suddenly at 346 he’s “Town caught in a death tunnel” for not appreciable reason.

--

Hell, you have plenty of information to read me. It's not my fault or my "scum-strategy" that you're intentionally not reviewing my case because you want to wait on your town-reads.

Umm a case on an unflipped player is hardly “plenty of information” to parse your slot. If at some point today we get an Elena scum flip than sure … the likelihood of you as a partner is pretty remote. On the other hand an Elena Town flip means that as things stand now I have what would be a tunnel on dead Town.

Who are your Town reads?

[MagnaofIllusion]

However, I understand you're also reading Toto as town and I have no idea how tbh. Toto looks like scum to me (which is why Nebula's town read has me like ???'

Why do you think Toto is town?

It started as when his reads (re: Nebula) converged with mine initially. But look with a critical eye at his and Nebula's postings (this applies to Sesq as well). Toto is willing to explore multiple avenues of inquiry (pressuring Hiraki as an example), question anyone, and be actively looking for things he think indicate scummy play and pointing them out. His play may be a bit spammy but shows what I would call Townie inquisitiveness.

Then compare to Nebula's ISO. Nebula is basically reactive and spent the whole day playing defense and sitting softly on Sesq more or less the whole time. Beyond OMGUSing me and his quick jaunt onto the Lowell lynch he was happy to sit on Sesq's wagon like with basically "Lol, scum" reasoning. No sign of trying to figure out the game.

Why do you not think Toto is Town?

Also - who do you think is Town yourself?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Sesq - what do you think about how Night turned out?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sorry BBT I can’t join you on Elena right now. The ship carrying scum I was expecting to be delivered sailed in flying the full “Red Role PM” flag.

VOTE: Nebula

I said I wanted my Town reads to weigh in on what I really wanted is to see if Nebula would engage today from the scum point of view I expected. On that front he did not disappoint.

Srs question: Does anyone think that all three scum were on the Lowell mislynch?

Translation – let’s see if I can put out feelers and see which way I want to sell my approach today.

VOTE: Sesq

{Magna, Sesq}

Let's try and figure out the third. I'm thinking the Lowell wagon needed some extra help, so probably on it.

So no-one bites on his “can I lay blame solely on the wagon” so he retreats to “Two scum on the wagon”.

But here’s the juicy crème-ala-crème of Nebula’s scummy approach to today –

Either yours or Sesq, yeah.

And, who was responsible for leading that?

I've stated why I previously had a scum read on him. His derailment of your wagon onto town!Lowell enhances it. You would have been the D1 lynch otherwise.

And here we see the scum motivated posting in full swing. Immediately attempt to throw blame for the mislynch on Lowell at the feet of the people he was supposedly scum reading Day 1.

A reminder of the actual wagon on Lowell again -

[8] Lowell - MagnaofIllusion, BlueBloodedToffee, Hawk, Toto, Hiraki,

nebula

, Riley Cake, KainTepes [LYNCH]

Note who is smack dab in the 6th slot on said wagon – Nebula scum. Yet he’s actively arguing that scum derailed the wagon on Sesq to mislynch Lowell. A wagon he was very late on. Why would Town Nebula derail the “obv” wagon on Sesq to help a mislynch? Furthermore let’s look at how he jumps on …

Will I lynch?

1. Lil Uzi Vert: I... guess. Meh.
2. BlueBloodedToffee: No.
3. nydushermain: Neutral, so, sure.
4. MagnaofIllusion: Yes, please!
5. KainTepes: No.
6. Lowell: No.
7. Hiraki: Yes.
8. Riley Cake: Probably not.
9. Toto: No, but he could quit nagging me.
10. Sesq: Yes, please.
11. nebula: sure, why not.
12. Music Box: No.
13. Elena Fisher: No.
14. Hawk: Yes, but not ideal.

This is horri-bad. You can't possibly think that both Sesq and I are both scum.

VOTE: Lowell

Look at the complete lack of Town logic here. Lowell is calling myself and Sesq as his “top” scum reads. Reminder – these are supposedly Nebula’s Top Scum suspects. Yet he abandons the Sesq wagon to join a wagon I supposedly was using to save Sesq because he’s placed as possible scum with Sesq (yet below Myself, Sesq and Hiraki arguably on Lowell’s depth chart)?

Not how Town thinks. Town Nebula should have been decrying the wagon and looking to keep Lowell Town who has the same reads as he supposedly does alive.

But he doesn’t do that. He makes up a crappy excuse to jump on the mislynch. And then comes out today looking to point blame for said mislynch.

Scum. Can’t be more clear.

Further look at this little nugget …

Also, and informative lynch is a very good excuse to tunnel someone. It should have been done D1. I was remiss - amongst others.

Only reason I think there is a hint of town in you is that neither of us is scum and they are enjoying this TvT. Not sold on that.

Nebula is staging a “Oh, I was wrong on Sesq it was TvT” transition so that if he gets his mislynch for today he can change up the attack and say “Oh, clearly scum are encouraging this TvT battle”. Note that he specifically is now calling Sesq an information lynch.

--

@BBT

– this serves as your reminder …

MoI, I'll talk more about Toto when I'm at a PC

--

But could also be a frame-kill. IDK. But there were better frame-kill candidates for that group. (i.e. me)

See I didn’t think you would be Nightkilled Toto – too many people (even scum Nebula) had you as Town reads and thus you made a logical protection target in my mind.

--

I haven't really read (mostly skimmed) but let's try this for size:

Vote: Hawk

Unvote, Vote: Sesq

Last vote was an incorrect vote.

Love an explanation about what drove this “incorrect vote” and why you supposedly changed your mind.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think I can sum up Nebula’s response at 1259 as “No U, buzzword, No U, Buzzword”. Sad.

--

MoI, I supported you on the Lowell wagon.

Help me lynch Elena.

Let’s be fair about this – we both moved to Lowell because we could not both agree on one of Nebula / Sesq. Do you think what I pointed out in 1258 has no merit or are you just digging in your heels on Elena?

I can't help but feel both Sesq and Nebula are town

What about Nebula is Town? Please enlighten me. I mean look at 1263 – it says “You were Town because you were voting Sesq. Now that you think Sesq is Town I am not sure about you”. And 1268 basically is “I can call you Town because I am calling MoI scum but the minute he flips Town I can go “aha, BBT is scummy for x, y, z”.

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I looked at your argument based on her refusal to answer Sesq's questions, but I don't see it. I did the same thing. Sesq is a fairly needy and frustrating player.

Again for the record – this is not how a Town player talks about one of their Top scum suspects. Scum aren’t “need and frustrating” they are scum. Nebula is describing Town difficult to work with here.

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how tf am I suppose to answer this

I know I used them you're asking me what I like about his town and reaction to the push...you basically answered it already I liked his tone and reaction hot dam idk what more detailed answer you want

Your responses have absolutely nothing behind them. Saying you like tone is empty nothingness. Why is his reaction a Town reaction and not a scum reaction? How is his “tone” something that comes from Town and not scum?

If the response to this is “It just is” I’ll probably support BBT today just an FYI …

[MagnaofIllusion]

OMG guys! Instead spending D2 tunneling, I'm voting someone who didn't adequately answer my question, has a previous case of suspicion that - while didn't originally convince me looks more so now - and cannot answer a simple question on why they didn't vote me.

I'm so scum. Power lynch me...please.

And my next exhibit in the “Why Nebula is Scum” … this post.

Earlier today Nebula has stated that I “shopped” scum reads on himself, Hiraki and Lowell. But this is the response he gives when Sesq quite properly points out that Nebula’s jump onto Elena was out of nowhere.

This is Cognitive Dissonance in full display – I was scum “shopping” for a lynch yesterday but he is Town exploring his other options and not tunneling. Look at my reasons and posts surrounding my suspicion of Hiraki, Nebula and Lowell. Then look at his jumps on Elena and Lowell (BTW he’s trying his absolute hardest to distance himself from any responsibility for his vote to mislynch Lowell which is scummy). Which ISO looks like someone actually looking for scum and which looks like scum making opportunistic hops?

Vote Nebula … he’s even asking for it!

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So Elena – want to let us in why you seem to find transparency to be a good quality (as evidence by your comment in 807) but don’t feel the need to be transparent yourself?

Don't lynch:
Toto
hapahauli

Should lynch:
MagnaofIllusion
BlueBloodedToffee

So why do you find BBT to be scum driving your lynch but Hapa to be super Town? Both to my mind have been the ones most responsible for pushing you today when you said scum are “driving the Town”.

MoI is someone people had a sr on for a lot of day 1 and yet no one did anything seems like scum who's partners didn't act on the sr or was making sure wagons stayed off him it's strange

I’m having a hard time deciding if you are Town who just uses god-awfully dumb logic or scum desperate to justify a read given this is the basis you’ve floated many times for your scum read on me.

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FoS on Mol and Elena one scum here somewhere seems reasonable.

This is one of the first empty MoI is scum drops that I want to see more about …

Why is it “reasonable” for there to be one scum in two players? I’d like to see your line of thought for this.

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[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you not find it strange magna that a lot of people say they sr you but don't act on it? You seem to be fine with it from what I can tell

Nope. This is a set-up where scum have their hands tied to some degree. They don't have full agency to make any kill they want knowing full well Town has two protective roles working for us. One of the best ways to dissuade protection on a harder to lynch target (which I am) is to express scum reads while not wanting to directly push for my lynch. The fact that you don't even seem to be processing the set-up at all and jumped to "SR on Magna mean he is scum" is suspect as does the fact you aren't even scum-reading those players (aside from Nebula) any of the players who supposedly are my partners floating scum reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I want to believe Elena, I find it odd the BBT and Hapu both come into d2 and point towards Elena but didn't say anything d1 about it. BBT instructed/requested a hammer on Lowell which I can see being scum motivated but that makes me question whether MoL was derailing Sesq or not. Sesq meanwhile questioned the lynch end of d1 near the end despite having moved his vote much more than his counter wagon Nebula. This combined with Nebula holding hard on Sesq till it seemed like Lowell's wagon was gaining actual traction makes me feel uncomfortable about the Elena situation as its indicative that she was either distancing or actually well and truly not paying attention to the game state :/

See this is to me a garbled and I need some clarification …

1. Was I “derailing” the Sesq lynch all day when pushing on Nebula or Hiraki (both of whom had viable wagons during D1). If not then why is moving to Lowell (who you admit played in a manner that looked scum to you also) suddenly a derail?
2. What is your read on BBT and Hapu if you find it suspect they both started the day pushing on Elena?
3. What is your read on Nebula given you seem to indicate his vote movements around Lowell are suspect?

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You are exhausting.

How no one sees that you are intentionally distorting things to be scummy is astounding to me. I never stated that you shopping your vote/focus on other players was scummy. I was correcting Hawk's previous assertion as it was factually inaccurate. I'm also not "trying my absolute hardest" to distance myself from Lowell. My entire argument there is that you started it.

Seriously...no one sees what MoI is doing? Blatant misreps...

I understand how exhausting this is for you. You managed to escape Day 1 and signs pointed at the start of the day that you were going to not be under fire for your scummy play again. But here I am not letting your scum-motivated posting go unnoticed at every turn. I’m that frustrating drug sniffing dog that you can’t shoot in front of the Cops safely and can’t make stop pointing out your “stash”.

Don’t worry too much about it. I’ve ground better scum than you into fine powder on the way to their lynch.

I'm not getting lynched today. Move on.

Yeah you are.

MORE NEBULA VOTES ASAP!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I anyone doesn’t see from the page 57 exchange between Sesq and Nebula that Sesq is actually scum-hunting while Nebula is ducking and weaving Mayweather style I can’t help you.

Hey Music Box – who is scum? You seem to be doing a lot of nitpicky pointless debating with Sesq and defending of Nebula without committing to pretty much anyone else as a suspect. Why is that Town behavior?

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I've seen this tactic utilized by Elena as well.

Then vote Elena.

“Quick player I scum-read – vote someone other than me …”

Also, in terms of other insincere votes that postdated that supposed insincere vote...have you seen any of our resident lurker's votes? Maybe ISO Riley/Uzi/MB and get back to me.

“Hey look over here at these votes from players that I am totally not scum reading in the least … they are terrible am I right? This is totally working as a distraction technique … nailed it!”

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[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm the Doctor.

Nope.

I’m directly counter-claiming this scumbag

I’m the Doctor. For ease of reference here is my breadcrumb from Day 1 …

CONFIRM MAFIA GOON,,

Frederick is my SCUMBUDDUY,,

VOTE: FREDERICK B CAMPBAGE

D

o you think that this is good Town play (assuming you want people to believe you are Town for this sort of crap)?

O

bviously I do not.

C

ongratulations you now get a deep meta dive from me.

T

he purpose – to determine what ratio of past games you have made these sort of posts in.

O

f those I find will tell me if you just are just following some other terrible example on site or actively have used this sort of play in the past.

R

est assured – if I find that you have done this more as scum than Town in the past then I will be locking my vote on you and pushing through your wagon today.

The bolded first letters of that paragraph spell Doctor.

And here is my Night 1 soft on who I protected …

See I didn’t think you would be Nightkilled Toto – too many people (even scum Nebula) had you as Town reads and

thus you made a logical protection target in my mind

.

The bolded I think is self explanatory.

Notice that Nebula didn’t provide his “protect target” in his cliam. He’s scum.

Let’s wrap this up.

@JK

– It is going to be WIFOM in your court tonight whether you target me or protect elsewhere to outguess the remaining Mafia. Don’t indicate at all in thread via breadcrumb tonight.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Magna

Conf!scum.

Lol - the confirmed scum has outed - you.

Why no indication who you protected? The answer is obvious - you are scum who didn't actually make a protection attempt and thus didn't include it in your "claim".

[MagnaofIllusion]

And unless there are counter-claims, let's get this Elena wagon rolling.

So Elena is not going today for obvious reasons ...

Do you think they are partners? In light of Nebula's confirmed scum status I think it bears review.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, just FYI, breadcrumbing is something scum will do in a known setup so that they can point back to it in CC and L-1 situations. But, whatevs.

Run me up please.

AtE at the last minute isn't going to save you ...

PreviewEdit - Scum-claim right there ... glad he didn't escape for another day.