Open 702: Vanilla Nightless Game Over
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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I'm not particularly scumreading Comm right now; I've played with him before and he is known for being a big-dick type of player, especially when analysing vote-counts.
My first serious vote will be going to a player who has had a very passive opening; in 27 he's trying to look busy, 41 is a useless post where he's just echoing what's already been said without directly involving himself with the Comm wagon, 42 is just an inexplicably easy townread.
Spoiler:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Impede-
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So how do you think he would have answered it as scum?In post 53, LaserGuy wrote:
Just to elaborate... the fact that it apparently didn't occur to cy that this would be the case is why I feel this is likely coming from Town. More of dumb tell than anything else.In post 51, LaserGuy wrote:
Because the reasoning in cy's response is only true if he is Town. Scum!cy obviously knows whether or not scum would be on the wagon and could easily prove it if he really wanted to.In post 49, CultOfAthena wrote:I'm not a fan of the cy townreads at all. It doesn't take a townie to point out logical fallacies. Trying to turn a game of mafia into debate club is actually a scumread for me - scum's knowledge of the game won't affect their posting at all if all they're doing is arguing logic or theory.
Impede, zaraki, LG, mind explaining what makes cy town in your eyes?-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Whether he is Town or scum, saying"I cannot prove or disprove you being right or wrong"still rings true - as Town you can't prove it because you don't know everyone's alignment, and as scum you can't prove it because to do so would result in outing your scum team.
If you want to base a read on that then fine, but I won't be doing so.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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You're taking that out of context; he was replying to 37 where he was being accused of looking for a reaction.In post 63, Lucky2u wrote:his 38, claiming to be looking for reactions is scum garbage
In post 37, cytheflyguy wrote:
I can't counter what's not there. It's not what you said but the lack thereof. This game is a group effort. If you make a statement like that, please share with the rest of the class your reasoning.In post 36, CommKnight wrote:Do you have any counter reasons to my logic? It's only page 2 and I am making early reads to help my own process with it. I could keep it to myself or I can make it public. Fine by me either way really.Otherwise, it looks like random fishing for a reaction.In post 38, CommKnight wrote:So if I were fishing for a reaction, how do you think you'd fare in that department?
Also am I wrong? Can you prove it?-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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I see you completely ignored the second line.
You're saying he's scummy for apparently looking for reactions, when that is something that is commonly done in and around RVS.
You are the one who wants to lynch Comm, you are the one using this as your reasoning for suspecting him, therefore the onus is on you to provide something that shows Comm was not really looking for reactions as claimed.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Something to show his intentions are not as he claimed them to be.In post 87, Lucky2u wrote:
We are in a vanilla game, that will have no night kills, and only lynches on day 1. What "evidence" are you expecting us to find exactly Luca?In post 82, Luca Blight wrote:I am reading; that was what I meant by the word 'apparently'.
Yes it's wifom, but that's all your vote is based on; it has no substance. You have no evidence Comm wasn't really looking for reactions; it's pure conjecture.
If you're going to vote him for doing something that is pretty usual in RVS then you need to have something to back it up, otherwise you haven't got a leg to stand on.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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You're asking for examples of valid reasoning? Jesus.In post 89, Lucky2u wrote:
Give me an actual example of this that could happen on Day 1. If you can, find an example in a finished game that did not include any day actions or weird mechanics. I will wait here while you find one.In post 88, Luca Blight wrote:Something to show his intentions are not as he claimed them to be.
I'll give you an example of how ridiculous your position is:
Lucky and Comm are both scum - Lucky is bussing his partner. I have absolutely nothing to back this up with but it's D1 so f*ck it, I can say whatever the hell I want.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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You're exaggerating my point and you know it. You don't need conclusive proof to vote someone, but you need some valid reasoning at least. I'm not going to join you in voting Comm just because of your guess that he's lying about fishing for reactions.In post 98, Lucky2u wrote:
Youre still not providing an example, because you can't provide one. We are just evaluating people's reactions in interactions and deciding ourselves wether it's coming from scum or town. Let's turn this around Luca, we are several pages in, what are your reads and why? **disclaimer, I will be using your own logic to your reads, so unless you read the entire playlist as null, I'll expect you to defend your opinions against "There is no particular reason for you to believe that X is Y"In post 94, Luca Blight wrote:You had no reasoning, just guesswork. There is no particular reason for you to believe Comm is lying about fishing for reactions, and given that everyone fishes for reactions to some degree in RVS you really need to have something to make your vote hold water.
I have already given a scumread if you read my posts.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Lucca who didn't post? I assume you mean me.
I was looking forward to a game not involving Voyager for a change but alas, it wasn't to be.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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@Impede:
Show where the 'tons of AtE' is in my posts.
My responses were perfectly valid I think you'll find, just because I didn't feel like playing along with Lucky's vague and nonsensical request for an example of valid reasoning - not only is this deflecting from the fact that my point was specific instead of general, it is just a silly thing to ask. I instead pointed out that there wasn't valid reasoning behind Lucky's vote as he so claimed.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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UNVOTE:
Impede's catch-up was pretty decent and I no longer want to lynch him today.
My preferred lynch today is UCV. I have experience with him and know his style well - this really feels like his scum game to me. I've been trying my best not to tunnel on him as I'm aware I have a tendancy to, but it really feels as if he's trying to buddy me to get me on his side so I won't go for him.
Spoiler: UCV's buddying
He has also made a lot of 'on the fence' comments, as is his style as scum:
Spoiler: UCV's fence-sitting
VOTE: UCV
Everyone sheep me.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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My problem was with Lucky's vote, not with Comm. You should read it again as you obviously misunderstood the point I was making.In post 214, LaserGuy wrote:In this type of game, I feel it is very likely there is going to be a lot of SvS infighting early on. You and Lucky's interaction has this vibe to me... you start with a discussion about Comm's intentions, but very quickly Comm is sidelined out of the discussion without any really input from him and you proceed to tunnel each other for the next six pages. The fact that Comm actually commented on your discussion at #100 and neither of you either asked him a question or wanted him to weigh in seems to suggest that neither of you are really interested in Comm at all. This is particularly unsettling since as of #172 don't actually think Lucky is scum, in which case it's not clear to me why you've spent so much energy on this. I'm leaning SvS on this whole interaction.
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Luca Blight Survivor
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That's misrepping what I said.In post 217, UC Voyager wrote:I am scummy for town reading you? damn, i guess im not allowed to townread people.
A lot of people have townread me this game yet you don't see me scumreading every one of them.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Because you're trying to buddy me and it feels fake.In post 220, UC Voyager wrote:
so Why am i any different?In post 218, Luca Blight wrote:
That's misrepping what I said.In post 217, UC Voyager wrote:I am scummy for town reading you? damn, i guess im not allowed to townread people.
A lot of people have townread me this game yet you don't see me scumreading every one of them.
If it's genuine then I apologise, but I can't shake this feeling that you're scum, and I don't think I'll be able to until you're dead.-
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This is a complete exaggeration of my point, as I already said.In post 203, Lucky2u wrote:
You can't prove it, thus you shouldn't act on it. For example, whats your scum case on me?In post 197, Impede wrote:And how would you define "Luca logic"?
Doesn't matter, you don't have proof I'm not just bad town so you shouldn't scum read me.
My point was specific, you're trying to generalise it. In your specific case there was no reason to think Comm was lying other than pure guesswork, and given the fact that in RVS everyone fishes for reactions to some degree, the burden of proof is with you. If you have literally nothing (I'm not talking abut conclusive evidence, just something to back-up what you're saying) then I don't see how you can think anyone will be convinced by your argument.
Anyway, let's leave this here.-
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I do, and I strongly suspect he is scum.In post 226, Impede wrote:
There's some definite fence–sitting happening. Can't say if there is an actual attempt at pocketing, but I don't really know UCVs metaIn post 215, Luca Blight wrote:He has also made a lot of 'on the fence' comments, as is his style as scum:
Is there any particular reason you don't want to vote UCV?-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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I'm not particularly scumreading Lucky at the moment - although I disagree with most of his posts I'm inclined to believe his intentions were genuine. He needs to post about other stuff though, that's for sure.
UCV is my clearest scumread and I don't see myself budging from that today unless something significant happens.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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I'm not fully able to explain why I strongly believe UCV is scum other than that I know his meta well, and he knows I know his meta well. He has been trying to buddy me because he knows I have a tendency to tunnel on him when I scumread him, and he was trying to prevent that.
Basically if you townread me then I implore you to trust me and vote UCV - there is no better lynch for D1.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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What are you talking about? He had literally done nothing in the time between being townread early on until I called him out on not doing anything in 252.In post 269, CultOfAthena wrote:
But is this from a lack of real content in his posts or a lack of activity? I think there's a distinction you're missing there.In post 252, Luca Blight wrote:Note for reference that Cy, having been widely townread early on, has done nothing since.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight
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It wasn't a coincidence - he even stated in his post he wanted to wait and see how things panned out.In post 290, CultOfAthena wrote:
You didn't explicitly say anything but I think the obvious implication there is that it's a point of suspicion. I can't conclusively say anything on the second point, but you disregard the frequency of coincidence.In post 286, Luca Blight wrote:@Athena:I didn't say it was necessarily NAI - it was just a point of reference, but he had obviously been lurking as he posted almost immediately afterwards.
I'm not sure what your problem is here exactly - I called out a lurker and he responded, meaning it had the desired effect. I don't particularly scumread him apart from that - my target today is UCV and I don't see that changing anytime soon.-
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This vote-count is ridiculously diluted. Time to condense our votes.
Who wants to vote UCV with me?
Sesq is probably town based on the emotion from his posts and the strength of his pushes which feel pretty genuine.In post 295, CultOfAthena wrote:Luca, what's your take on sesq, mozamis and zaraki?
The other two are pretty null to me at the moment, although I haven't ISO'd them and don't plan to until UCV is lynched - he is the only player I'm willing to vote for today as I'm over 90% sure he's scum.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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UC Voyager
122, 171, 191, 266 - A continuing theme of'town should/shouldn't be doing this!'. This is something UCV does when he is scum.
129 - Completely fake scumhunting. Looks contrived with one townread, one null read, one scum read, and no real reasoning for any of it.
141, 143,152, 155, 199 - Buddying me. As I explained before, he knows I know his meta well and that I tunnel on him once I catch on that he's scum, and he entered into this game with the plan of trying to appease me, no doubt about it.
146, 147, 174 - Fence-sitting. This is something I know he does as scum.
159 Asking if Impede's play is lurkscum; why can't he judge this for himself?
189 - non-committal and unexplained reads list where he gives scum leans but says he has no solid scum reads, but is apparently 'still hunting'.
222 - Responds to my vote on him for buddying with a further attempt at buddying, saying it's good I don't always consider those who side with me as being of the same alignment. He's also using emotion here to try and get me to change my mind.
Other than that, I have played with him many times now and can read this guy like a book. UCV is today's lynch - let's make it happen.
Unless anyone can give any good reason why weshouldn'tlynch UCV today?-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Statistics are irrelevant - just because you draw scum one game doesn't mean you're less likely to in the next.
I made a lot of points not involving meta - you haven't addressed them.
I kept an open mind and tried to consider you might be Town, but I just strongly believe you are scum this game. Am I supposed to suppress that feeling in case you get annoyed?
No. Being scumread is part of the game. Deal with it.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Luca Blight Survivor
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Right, so you've taken one part of one point and then used it to dismiss my entire case? The main part of the point you're talking about is that his reads were contrived - how convenient is it to have one townread, one null read and one scum read laid out like that? It isn't natural. The fact there was no reasoning for any of it only compounds the matter as it looks like he's just trying to fabricate something to look busy.In post 324, cytheflyguy wrote:Spoiler:
Hmm...tbf you only referenced 4 posts that had nothing to do with metaing. These were all the points that had only one post to back up the claim.
The first one made me raise an eyebrow was "no real reasoning for any of it". I'm sorry, but...
Spoiler:
Including myself and excluding UVC, there are four other people who gave little/literally no reasoning for their reads. I feel that UVC's meta has blinded you in the order of who you want to lynch, but these should be addressed as well down the line if we're reasoning that poor reads=a larger likelihood of being scum or not.
Obviously, I don't have the same meta experience as you do (well, none of which I'm allowed to speak of), but you are the only one who has had experience with him out of all of us, as far as I know. I cannot truely take you at your word regarding the meta. Your three posts that I have not addressed do hold some water, but I interpreted them differently. I saw it as more unsure and testing waters more than anything else. I am slightly convinced, but I don't want him lynched just yet. With how fast votes are going for him, for my best interest in using time wisely, I will abstain for now.
I feel there is enough to warrant a UCV lynch even if you entirely exclude meta. Just note his reaction to being voted - he isn't angry because I'm tunneling him, as I've been doing it for a while this game without him getting angry. He's annoyed that it's working and that I will successfully get him lynched again.-
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What happened to my case being 'compelling'?In post 327, Zaraki_Jaegerjaquez wrote:I'm sorry, but I was up very late, but I'm going to have to unvote UCV. Looking back, if it really was his first (or one of the) scum game, and you've been using the meta against him, then I see a 7for7 fallacy. Can't follow that.
Also, Sesq is really bouncy with wagoning.
Unvote: UC Voyager
That's not the only meta I'm using against him. I'm not able to explain fully, but if you look through UCV's recent meta you will see what I'm talking about.-
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Luca Blight Survivor
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In response to UVC's orange-coloured text above:
1. I have been in a game with you when you were VT (Baseball).
2. Fence-sitting, not 'fence-shitting'. It's basically where you're flip-flopping; not taking an actual stance on something.
3. Fake scum-hunting as you're giving the impression you're looking for scum. I've already explained why it reads fake.-
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I didn't replace out, I was night-killed after your lynch.In post 343, UC Voyager wrote:
ok. you were replaced out. i forgot about that. plus, would you really count a game where I threw it that baddly. i mean, i pretty much accepted the lynch like a bar of chocolate.In post 340, Luca Blight wrote:In response to UVC's orange-coloured text above:
1. I have been in a game with you when you were VT (Baseball).
2. Fence-sitting, not 'fence-shitting'. It's basically where you're flip-flopping; not taking an actual stance on something.
3. Fake scum-hunting as you're giving the impression you're looking for scum. I've already explained why it reads fake.
What were you getting at, then?In post 347, Impede wrote:
Not really what I was getting at.In post 339, Luca Blight wrote:Basically you're asking me how UCV's behaviour this game could come from a Town perspective?
If so, you should ask that question to whoever is against UCV's lynch.
But I think I've seen enough. The fence sitting looks bad enough, but combined with that jankity vote it just comes off wrong.
VOTE: UC Voyager
This is L-2 by my count
As Moz pointed out, in what world should the person pushing someone's lynch then be the one to offer a defence to that player?In post 350, Sesq wrote:
noIn post 339, Luca Blight wrote:Basically you're asking me how UCV's behaviour this game could come from a Town perspective?
If so, you should ask that question to whoever is against UCV's lynch.
you do it
I strongly believe UCV is scum for reasons that can and can't be explained, and I'm not gonna give anyone free excuses to avoid lynching him.-
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Yes, initially my read was gut feeling. What's the issue with this, and what's with the big, red-coloured lettering?In post 370, UC Voyager wrote:
hmmmm. scum reads me onIn post 151, Luca Blight wrote:Gut feeling on Impede and UCV being scum buddies....just putting it in here for reference.GUT FEELING
I gave reasoning already for UCV and Impede. I was making a possible connection for reference - the reasoning is pretty self-explanatory as this post came just after the interaction it was referring to.In post 370, UC Voyager wrote:wow, you were litterally just accusing me of making reads with no reasoning. talk about hypocrisy
You think I was getting scared of you because you mentioned by meta? Don't be daft. What reason would I have to fear someone who not only completely townread me but was actively buddying me?In post 370, UC Voyager wrote:
OK. let me walk through thisIn post 215, Luca Blight wrote:UNVOTE:
Impede's catch-up was pretty decent and I no longer want to lynch him today.
My preferred lynch today is UCV. I have experience with him and know his style well - this really feels like his scum game to me. I've been trying my best not to tunnel on him as I'm aware I have a tendancy to, but it really feels as if he's trying to buddy me to get me on his side so I won't go for him.
Spoiler: UCV's buddying
He has also made a lot of 'on the fence' comments, as is his style as scum:
Spoiler: UCV's fence-sitting
VOTE: UCV
Everyone sheep me.
1. you said i was buddying you when some of those quotes were me stating pure fact! Other posts, i was litterally doing what your doing to me, but i was town reading you
141 was saying i have seen your town play and will see it soon if you are town. you eventually turn around and start this whole case on me. notice how you were not super hostile with me until i mentioned your meta. then all of a sudden you are getting scared. the more and more i read your posts, the weaker my town read on you is.
143 I stated fact. you don't like ATE. I wasn't even hard town reading you, just stating fact. Do you wan't to utilize ATE later on,, but need me gone to do so?
152 wasn't even a town read on you god damnit.
199sure, it is a town read on you, but is it really buddying?
moving on
,my fence sitting is not really a valid fucking reason
-I did not want to just jump on a wagon because one could be lurking. lurking isn't a scum tell unless that is a meta, so i was asking if it was his scum meta. if it was, then i wouldn't be risking as much then if he lurked as town some times or he was just busy!
143 - you think I want you gone so I can use AtE later-on? That is laughable. And yes you were clearly townreading me, don't deny it.
152 - No, but you were being overly-friendly in response to my suspicion of you.
199 - yes, it is buddying.
Fence sitting really is a valid fucking reason.
You say lurking isn't a scumtell yet you are currently voting someone for lurking? Go figure.-
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