Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Jay

His record ends now.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

This stinks.

VOTE: jmo

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Based on what, exactly?

[Luca Blight]

Oh, Welcome Almost! Your just in time for the fuckery that will be page 3!

Oh, love that the Moderator literally links the post in which the person voted. Makes it much easier to fact check.

Fact check what?

Well obviously most people explain their reasoning for voting someone in that same post, so linking the post with the vote makes it so you can't really have an excuse to not look back at it.

This post is meh. You're acting like this is a great advantavge for town so we can "hold people to their word" but in reality, you can iso someone and it would literally be more informative.

'

Meh

'? Are you actually trying to read his alignment based on a post praising the mod for putting links in the vote count?

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

This stinks.

VOTE: jmo

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Based on what, exactly?

Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!

Are you voting me purely because I wanted your wagon/creature wagon to get to L-1 or what?

I skimmed the thread and you stood out as someone just making comments that are actually pretty useless like the one I quoted above.

The fact you want to get me to L-1 not only based on nothing but when I wasn't even active at the time makes matters worse. You also drop that wagon at the first opportunity, which brings into question your motivation for doing it in the first place.

[Luca Blight]

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

Since when did votes need a solid basis? Your vote on me had literally none, and yet you wanted to get me to L-1.

What is the basis behind your Creature vote?

[Luca Blight]

I'm willing to let go of Jay right now.

What is your thought-process behind this; why did you decide to let Jay go here, and what is your read of Jay at this point?

[Luca Blight]

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

Since when did votes need a solid basis? Your vote on me had literally none, and yet you wanted to get me to L-1.

What is the basis behind your Creature vote?

I feel like I've already explained this:(

Vote on creature and your vote is explained above.

I was kind of pointing out the contradiction/hypocrisy - you slate Jay for not having a basis behind his vote yet you have none for your own votes.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

VOTE: jmo

Feel better about my vote being here.

Woo!

For pressuring Jays motives and reasonings? :/

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

This stinks.

VOTE: jmo

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Based on what, exactly?

Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!

These reactions to being voted ping me a bit as well - it feels unnatural.

[Luca Blight]

@Math

: I find it extraordinary how you could get any sort of ping from this post:

VOTE: Jay

His record ends now.

As RVS posts go, that is pretty standard.

Why did you not mention this ping at the time, instead of vaguely agreeing that I '

can be scum

' when jmo voted me? Why bother making such a remark only to change the topic entirely in your very next sentence?

Jay tried to have reasoning behind his. I didn't think it was legit. I stated this.

His reasoning is no different than that of '

gut

' - there is no real evidence what he thinks is true, he just feels it's the case.

Is there any particular reason you didn't want to get Mutant to L-1?

[Luca Blight]

Presumably you didn't want to get Mutant to L-1 like you did with me and Creature, or else you would have voted him instead of disagreeing with Jay. I was wondering why you didn't choose to join the wagon of an active player, rather than start a wagon on an absentee.

Why mention you're looking at my scum games? Do you do that every time you take a metadive?

[Luca Blight]

Recent scum games:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=74286
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=73460
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=73388

There were a couple of others I replaced out from.

[Luca Blight]

Luca do me a favour and stop interrogating jmo for now, talk about something else

Do you give a shit that I responded to you above lol

I disagree voting me makes sense based on my RVS post. I can't understand that mindset at all.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca: Like dude both of the people you're aggressively interrogating (and that your whole ISO is directed to) are the only 2 people who suspected you

What is your point exactly?

I'm not aggressively interrogating you; I'm just pointing out your dubious scumread based on my RVS post.

[Luca Blight]

Then how do you expect to get out of RVS
Gimme a break, this is how the game goes
Talk about your reads on others

What are you talking about? RVS was long gone by the time jmo voted me and you agreed that I '

can be scum

'.

Your comment was terrible. Face it.

[Luca Blight]

My point is you've interacted with a total of 2 players, all resulting from both of them harping on you for your rvs post

More succinctly, my point is to get over it and expand your view of the game

I'll do that when I'm good and ready. I'll play the game how I want to, not how you tell me to.

[Luca Blight]

This feels like "you caught me for the wrong reasons", not gonna lie

Yeah, even though you didn't even vote me and changed the subject immediately onto something else.

You really

caught me

....

[Luca Blight]

Why is there

almost definitely

scum in me and jmo, and why are you favouring me as scum?

[Luca Blight]

Wait, so you're hardscumreading me based on the RVS post, and because I'm only focusing on two players at this current moment? That is truly laughable.

I will take a look at the bigger picture when I have time. I'm currently looking after my son which impairs my ability to do analysis.

[Luca Blight]

Interesting how you choose to interpret it as

predatory

instead of genuinely trying to create information and attain a read on someone.

Perhaps you can detail why it's the former instead of the latter?

[Luca Blight]

This feels like "you caught me for the wrong reasons", not gonna lie

This actually seems

predatory

to me; you're using my questioning of the validity of your comment as a reason in itself why I'm scum.

I pointed out how groundless this was, which you of course ignored.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca: Like dude both of the people you're aggressively interrogating (and that your whole ISO is directed to) are the only 2 people who suspected you

I will look at 1974 pokemon mafia tomorrow. Something something about Jay being scum and having issues with people about voting him about RVS and reacting the same way as he is now... I'm not voting you yet, because that game may very well clear you, but we will see about it tomorrow.

I actually don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[Luca Blight]

To counter your case point by point:

1. Did you even read what you quoted? Because that wasn't an RVS post jmo was reading Jay on.

2. You are inventing the AtE there. The reason I '

harped on

', as you keep saying, is because he stated he wanted to get me to L-1 and then dropped the wagon at the drop of a hat - this, as I said, made me question if his intention to get me to L-1 in the first place was genuine.

3. I already addressed this. I wasn't painting myself as the victim btw - you are twisting things to suit your narrative.

4, Err, why would I ask where you got your read from when you had already told me it was a gut ping? What is wrong with questioning an inconsistency? Your attempted parody of my posting style is embarrassingly distorted, btw. You're trying to paint me as thought I'm AtE'ing all over the place, which isn't the case.

5. F*ck off with the victimisation thing, it's getting irritating. I think my reasoning for asking that question is so clear I don't even feel the need to answer it.

6. I don't see the point of you bringing this up.

7. You're moving the goalposts. Your point was that he said it to get us out of RVS - we were already out of RVS by the time he voted me.


I don't believe you're being genuine with your views here. You're so blatantly trying to misrep me and twist what I've said into it being AtE and victimisation when it's clearly not the case. Math - probscum.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Math

[Luca Blight]

That's just the spin you're trying to put on it, but it's baseless. This is my way of sorting - I question things that seem off to me or don't make sense in some way. If the other player cannot answer satisfactorily then that's their problem; it doesn't make my question predatory.

You, on the other hand, have been deliberately misrepping me and twisting everything I've said into 'victimisation' where there was none. I don't see any Town motivation behind such underhand tactics.

[Luca Blight]

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

Math townreads NSG after her 90, in which she asks the same kind of probing questions Math scumreads me for.

Why is NSG's 90 Town, yet my similar points/questions are

predatory

?

[Luca Blight]

"Your posts basically lead you to scumread people and leave it at that"

- How is that the case when I've continued to engage with the players I scumread? You're the one who voted jmo without any relevant interaction with him, so I'd say you're more guilty of that than me.

I maintain that my questions have been of the same nature as the one's NSG asked, which contribute to your townread of her. You can't glaze over this fact.

Your point about there being

'no good response'

to my questions is just weird - if an obvious answer was available at hand then there would be no point asking the question. The fact they are hard to answer is what makes them good questions.

[Luca Blight]

ok i guess we're doin this

VOTE: Luca

you wanna go after me in a playerlist with a proven track record of correctly reading me (minus jay and paradox who were bad that one time), be my guest

i'm not gonna continue this 1v1 unless you start doing the "every single post mathdino makes is proof he's scum" thing, let's leave it at this page and see what people think

there's always that one player...

This is terrible.

I don't give a fuck if you're known by the player list - if I think you're scum I will 'go after you', regardless of anything else. It's like a boxer being arrogant about winning a fight because it's in his own back yard and he knows the judges are biased. This is not a townie mindset.

You seem to be reluctantly voting me because I'm continuing the 1v1 rather than for the reasons you gave; that's what your last post says to me. You don't even try to deny that you've been misrepping me and twisting the meaning of my words to portray it all as victimisation - of course you can't deny it, because it's there in black and white. You can't undo what you've already done.

[Luca Blight]

You said you were good with the 1v1 earlier; what changed?

It feels like you had no counter to my arguments so you just essentially gave up.

I don't get your vote on me - am I even your top scumread? I thought it would act as a prelude to a push against me, but you seem to be done with this now.

[Luca Blight]

@Anen

- I vaguely remember playing with you when I was Town and you were scum before my hiatus from the site. I don't recall myself playing as scum against you, however?

I'm not big on meta, personally. I don't like to over-rely on it to read players, nor do I feel it's effective in reading me as I like to play differently every game regardless of alignment. I also feel Mafia as a whole is more fun when played purely, without judging players based on stuff that occurred elsewhere.

The only times I use meta is if I feel something strongly that can only be proven in such a way, particularly if I need to convince others of a scumread. A good example of this is UCV - in three separate games I've played him with him being scum and myself Town, and I've caught him in every one. In the first one he evaded lynch despite my efforts, but in the two subsequent scum games of his I successfully got him lynched based mainly on meta.

Anyway, I'm still feeling pretty good about my two scum reads but I'll assess the other players in the game shortly.

[Luca Blight]

I forgot to add - the reason I used meta in those instances was because UCV's scum game was so obvious to me at the time that I was 99% sure of him being scum in each instance. It's rare players are so unaware of their own playstyle that it stands out to such an extent, but that was true of UCV at the time.

Math here, incidentally, is clearly hyper-aware of his meta and how others might perceive him, which means it should be disregarded altogether imo.

[Luca Blight]

Lying? Don't be daft. You've stated several times how everyone here knows your meta and won't read you incorrectly. I interpret this as being hyper-aware - certainly if you're scum you're going to be extra careful to replicate your town game given people here know your style.

Not random either; I meant to mention it earlier but it slipped my mind.

[Luca Blight]

All meta should be taken with a pinch of salt, at best.

There are some exceptions to the rule, as I stated with my example of UCV.

[Luca Blight]

instead of actually asking where i got my read from (which is what you would ask if, you know, trying to sort me), he asks leading questions trying to highlight some perceived inconsistency
"WHY ARE YOU A HYPOCRITE"
"Well I mean I'm really no-"
"OKAY WHY ARE YOU NOW BEING INCONSISTENT"
"Well I think your lines of questioning are a little predato-"
"NO YOU'RE BEING PREDATORY, I'M TRYING TO CREATE INFORMATION"
^Luca in a nutshell

Your attempted parody of my posting style is embarrassingly distorted, btw. You're trying to paint me as thought I'm AtE'ing all over the place, which isn't the case.

Don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I felt exactly how Mathdino depicted you in his parody while reading your posts. Maybe you should take a step back and see the whole situation on cold? I'm townleaning you because I got your point and I believe your playstyle is indeed looking for scum, but I understand why someone (like Math, for example) could be scumreading you. I don't want that, I want town townreading town, and I'm feeling this 1v1 was TvT.

I'm kind of scumreading this. It's something about the wording - awkward and a bit LAMIST, while trying to appease both parties. It doesn't really contribute anything, either,

[Luca Blight]

Math, if someone is aware of their meta then of course it shouldn't be relied on.

I've been stung by scum surviving games because of their meta too many times now - it's the worst way to lose a game.

[Luca Blight]

Math has NSG locked as town already based on hardly anything except meta.

NSG is aware of her meta and has even apparently been studying it. The meta essentially boils down to NSG being 'awkward' as scum - would it be so hard for her to produce a few decent looking posts and secure that easy townread from someone who has such low expectations of her scum game?

[Luca Blight]

Anyway, I don't really want to get too wrapped up in this theory discussion - basically I will be judging players on how I see them.

I will take meta into account, but I won't be relying on it too much.

[Luca Blight]

Am I the only one who got pinged by 172?

[Luca Blight]

Stood against me? Come off it - he was townreading me!

You also didn't answer the question.

[Luca Blight]

Stop being obtuse - I want to know if you were pinged. Everyone else can answer for themselves.

Read that post again and tell me honestly that he

'stood against me'

.

[Luca Blight]

Like, the reason it pinged me is because he didn't take any meaningful stand - it was worthless appeasement to both parties, and awkwardly worded to boot.

[Luca Blight]

How is something that gains scum towncred an 'anti-scum move'?

[Luca Blight]

I don't believe a town 1v1 battle is quite so harmful as you make out - a lot of the time during such duels both players end up being townread for it anyway.

I see it as a player who is cautious about dipping his toe in the water so plays the peace-keeper role, so as to not make too many enemies while still being active in the game.

[Luca Blight]

If he just said something blunt and to the point I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it, but he seemed to be making a conscious effort to keep on both of our good sides'.

[Luca Blight]

Who do you think is scum?

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

VOTE: jmo

Feel better about my vote being here.

Woo!

For pressuring Jays motives and reasonings? :/

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

This stinks.

VOTE: jmo

Luca can be scum, yeah.

Based on what, exactly?

Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!

These reactions to being voted ping me a bit as well - it feels unnatural.

I don't like this, feels deliberately obtuse

FOS: Luca Blight

Would vote but not sure of wagon status

How in the fuck is that being

deliberately obtuse

?

[Luca Blight]

Read carefully what you quoted, I'm not sure if you misunderstand or if you are the one being

obtuse

here.

[Luca Blight]

Read carefully what you quoted, I'm not sure if you misunderstand or if you are the one being

obtuse

here.

Why were you focused on the

basis

so much, rather than looking into the

motive

?

That's irrelevant to the thing you quoted and fos'd me for, which was suspicion based on his reaction to being voted by different players.

[Luca Blight]

The comma was obviously meant to be a full stop...and he was giving both sides something.

I'm going out, be back after some hours.

[Luca Blight]

So you're scumreading me for only focusing on a few players even though you believe my explanation for doing so?

[Luca Blight]

@Math:

Are you going to moan every time I question a scumread towards me?

It's becoming tedious.

[Luca Blight]

Jesus Christ, I'm about to go to bed and was just skimming the thread and that point caught my eye.

I am a team player. I will look at the bigger picture when I'm ready (probably in about 12 hours).

[Luca Blight]

Beginning my catch-up (I'm looking after my son all day so this will take a while until I'm back to the present chat)

@Aneni (I can still call you this right) I answered 77 cos I didn't realize it was meant for one person
Also why is my suspicion of LB poop? I'm suspecting them (Luca what's your pronoun?) because I don't like how they're treating jmo's attempts to advance the gamestate

What's to say my push on jmo wasn't similarly intended to advance the gamestate?

It's actually not that uncommon for scum to challenge townreads on themselves. I will accept this if you can make a specific explanation for this case otherwise you should drop the read.
Thinking you're town tho

If he doesn't have a good explanation, will you be thinking he is likely scum then?

No
I think he's town either way cos he's townhunting

Just one of Gamma's many lazy reads.

In case it wasn't clear, I'm scumreading Gamma at this point.

I don't like this, feels deliberately obtuse
FOS: Luca Blight
Would vote but not sure of wagon status

What's the wagon status have to do with him being scum or not?

Are you scared to jump on a fresh wagon?

I'm concerned about accidentally hammering
but since you say it's fresh
VOTE: Luca Blight

Is he that out of touch with the game to think he would even be close to hammering me at this point?

I want to note I'm a bit skeptical of Anen's townread of me that seems to be based on meta, when not only I've said meta is not reliable in reading me but the meta in question is from years ago. Despite seemingly coming across as defensive thus far, I'm only challenging the completely nonsensical points against me; I would expect some suspicion on me based on how I've played so far.

Similarly I think Gamma's trying to pocket jmo.

[Luca Blight]

Interesting how you choose to interpret it as

predatory

instead of genuinely trying to create information and attain a read on someone.

Perhaps you can detail why it's the former instead of the latter?

Because you're not trying to obtain a fair read?

You're quite clearly biased here as you're not even trying to consider my point of view. This comment is basically just echoing what Math has already said without adding anything new.

Btw, this is the sort of '

predatory'

question Math scumread me for - there is no good way to answer it.

[Luca Blight]

Oh, wrong topic
For that one it should have been clear he was glad RVS was over

This is such bollocks that it seems like you're deliberately missing the point.

jmo's reaction of feeling alternately happy and sad at being voted seemed fake.

Gamma and luca please don't blow up the thread thanks

Luca, people can push Gamma without you

Gamma, the luca case has already been made

There is a specific reason I need the thread to not blow up thanks

I really fucking hate this domineering playstyle btw. You accuse me of not being a team player, but you are actively telling others not to contribute so you can have your own way with how discussion goes. Fuck off.

[Luca Blight]

Like, the reason it pinged me is because he didn't take any meaningful stand - it was worthless appeasement to both parties, and awkwardly worded to boot.

Let's note, pin's new

New players can be scum as well.

You're not even considering the fact he could be scum, which in turn increases my suspicion of you.

I like Pin's suspicion of Gamma - light townread for that.

Paradox seems Townie based on tone.

Maths' 338 - Has NSG as scum when he previously had her as locktown. This can't really be passed off as a valid gambit because she has barely posted in between these changes. The fact he then discloses at the end that it's a reaction test not only defeats the point of said reaction test, it also seems like a cowardly cop-out - as though he can't be held accountable for that view because it was for reasons other than the ones given. Math is hiding this whole game behind these so-called gambits. Scumread re-affirmed.

He also mentions I have enough good town points, but never mentions what they were - this is significant because he later returns to his scumread on me without any specific reason for doing so.

[Luca Blight]

339 - NSG's vote on jmo was

'awful

', so Math's vote on jmo must have been even worse given it was itself based on NSG's vote? Or is Math immune from such inconsistencies? This entire post is actually completely useless.

Light scumread on Mutant just because he seems to be blending in without being particularly proactive. I remember easily townreading him in the other game we played, but it hasn't been the case here.

[Luca Blight]

346 is good - solid townread on Paradox.

Math's

'I can't remember my role pm'

line is just another tedious facet of his play.

357 - Did Paradox ever answer my question regarding his scumread of me? If he did, ignore this as I'll probably find it later.

389 - Terrible.

410 is bad from Mutant.

[Luca Blight]

paradox is locktown
no scum thinks they could ever get a mislynch on me in this situation, knowing me, lol

you're falling for the "the last time i played with you, you were scum" trap
no harm done

i still haven't answered your inconsistency questions because this entire day has been one long-ass gambit

hype hype for the reveal

This is awful.

1) You already used the arrogant

'scum wouldn't try to mislynch me'

line to me earlier in the game, which means even if that were true then it opens itself to heavy wifom - scum know they can get towncred by voting you.

2)

'Don't mind my inconsistency - it's just me gambitting'.

Like I said, he's hiding behind this shit the entire day so far.

3)

'Pardox is locktown'. 'No harm done'.

Pocketing to a cringeworthy degree.

[Luca Blight]

357 - Did Paradox ever answer my question regarding his scumread of me? If he did, ignore this as I'll probably find it later.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that. Can you reference me to that post?

Yep - 359

[Luca Blight]

486 - Creature has Pin as a townlean when earlier he called him

'fake'

What changed?

488 - Math calls Creature's reads

'great'

, even though they were pretty vague and in no way explained. He also suddenly says Creature is Town based on this. Needless to say this seems like BS to me.

[Luca Blight]

i guess it's luca
jay should just be vigged, we're never getting a wagon on him unless it's policy
and doing that will just fuck up the VCA

tbh i dropped luca into town to try to distance my brain from the "SCREW YOU FOR 1V1ING ME" mindset

and because PoE created a scumpool of {NSG, Creature, Anen, mutant}
but yeah that no longer works

This is just a lie - he said earlier I had enough

'good town points'

. Now it's convenient to scumread me again (perhaps because I'm not active at this point or on his case) he slots straight back into scumreading me again.

[Luca Blight]

513 Gamma -

1) Why should I have to say it? I think it goes without saying that early reads are exaggerated for the purposes of game advancement.

2) The read is lazy because you're just writing him off as Town based on his join date. I'm aware he's new, and the inital post that pinged me is one I could see coming from scum of any experience. Btw - experienced doesn't = good and inexperienced doesn't = bad.

3) The defensive part was referring to myself. You seem to misread/misconstrue a lot in this game.

[Luca Blight]

Gamma:

1) not really - the only reason I said it is because you used that reason to defend jmo without considering I might have been doing the same thing.
2) I am also townreading him, but I remain suspicious over how quick you were to.
3) I was talking about Anen and it was related to that. I've already mentioned a few times where you've misunderstood something I've posted.

[Luca Blight]

Gamma:

I don't feel the need to link the examples of your misunderstanding things as I'm not even sure it's AI - it was more just an expression of annoyance on my part.

Why have you been continuously defending jmo this game? What is your actual read on him?

[Luca Blight]

Reaction tests are pretty easy to spot (and are worthless) when you disclose in advance that it's a reaction test.

You've contradicted yourself again in the post above - you lock Paradox as Town because as scum he wouldn't dare attempt to get you mislynched, but now you're saying scum could be going after you for the towncred.

In 557 you also say scum would be more scared of pushing town-Creature over Town-you, which also doesn't align with your earlier bravado.

[Luca Blight]

I didn't disclose that it was a reaction test at all. I breadcrumbed the test when I was 80% of my way into it. The reaction test was literally saying "HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown" and seeing what NSG would do in response to me playing a caricature of my scumself.

Paradox knows me and knows the difficulty in getting me lynched. You don't. Read context, I've explained both of these sufficiently for you to get it already.

What doesn't align with what bravado? I've pointed out a bunch of cases where I was townreading people who hopped on the Creature wagon for precisely that logic. Gamma in particular.

1) You also voted her as a reaction test, which you let known at the time. To be honest the entire gambit falls flat due to NSG not being active - you should have at least waited for her to return and catch-up before reversing your read on her.

2) You misunderstood, I'm not talking about me. Read my second line again carefully.

3) My point was that you say scum would be more scared to target scum-Creature than scum-you, but earlier you made out as though town-you is scum's worst nightmare.

[Luca Blight]

3) town-creature than town-you*

[Luca Blight]

You never explained why you knowingly misrepped me and twisted my words in our earlier 1v1?

[Luca Blight]

And I wasn't 'nitpicking' - I was catching up on the game and those were my thoughts. You just ignore every point I make against you anyway.

[Luca Blight]

People agreed with you? I think only Pin commented on that specific thing, from what I remembered.

As I said already (but you conveniently ignore), I actually expect a bit of suspicion towards me based on how I've played so far. I only counter the bullshit reasons for scumreading me.

[Luca Blight]

Anyway, you definitely

did

misrep me and twist my words, and I will pull it up when I get some time.

[Luca Blight]

Stop it with the mindless capital letter parodies. Nowhere have I ever said anything like 'I'M TOWN I DIDN'T DO THAT STUFF'.

I've been reasonable at every turn, and have shown that this shit about '

predatory questions'

is only the spin you put on the particular questions I have asked, and there is no basis for it. I have given you the opportunity to show exactly how they are predatory rather than genuinely trying to sort people, but you chose to disengage. Others have asked similar questions - I pointed out one Gamma asked me earlier which was would qualify as '

predatory

' by your definition, but again you ignore it.

[Luca Blight]

I replied to your case point for point and you dropped it. If you genuinely want to get me lynched perhaps it would be in your interest to try and show why my questions are of a predatory nature, because only Gamma vaguely seems to agree with that and he's in his own world.

I just find it strange how you scumread me based on 1 main thing, yet accept it from others as being town. Like, you're just undermining your own point against me as it's obviously not very AI if people you think are town are doing the same thing.

Scum are wary of 1v1's in general - I'm Town and don't give a f*ck basically. I think you've been all over the place this game and I'm holding you to account for it. As scum I probably wouldn't want this because even if I succeeded in getting you lynched, I wouldn't exactly look good from it.

[Luca Blight]

i guess it's luca
jay should just be vigged, we're never getting a wagon on him unless it's policy
and doing that will just fuck up the VCA

tbh i dropped luca into town to try to distance my brain from the "SCREW YOU FOR 1V1ING ME" mindset

and because PoE created a scumpool of {NSG, Creature, Anen, mutant}
but yeah that no longer works

This is just a lie - he said earlier I had enough

'good town points'

. Now it's convenient to scumread me again (perhaps because I'm not active at this point or on his case) he slots straight back into scumreading me again.

Another point Math ignored.

You said I had 'good town points' earlier but never elaborated on them, and apparently you've forgotten that was the reason you stopped scumreading me.

Explain.

[Luca Blight]

I dislike disagreeing with Creature but the only towntell I have from Gamma this whole game was that he went after Creature at a point where I don't think scum would or should.

Going over his ISO, I'm seeing a lot of posting that feels like busywork, and I'm also seeing the patterns pintu is suggesting.

Hate to sheep the guy Creats is voting, but this feels right:
VOTE: Gamma

Does anyone think pintu and Luca are scum together?

If not, and if pintu is scum, he's alignment informed and Luca is town (hence pushing me/Luca apart for the towncred).

@pintu: Counterpoint to your Math/Luca reads: If I were scum, filling up pages of 1v1 with Luca benefits me in this situation, because I would win the 1v1 and it would make everyone else apathetic and unwilling to read it. I don't think that logic really works.
And the ironic thing is that you're townreading me for engaging Luca while Luca is scumreading me for repeatedly trying to disengage from him

Would you stop brown-nosing Creature already? Even if he had decent reads in past games, it seems ludicrous how much stock you're putting into his reads that have been for the most part unexplained.

Perhaps you should explain more about your towntell on Gamma? Why have you suddenly gone 180 on that read? Dare I say, this sudden shift feels

predatory

to me.

The timing of your Luca/Pintu scumteam question is weird - you sheep Pintu's view on Gamma, then in the following sentence throw a bit of shade on him.

Last paragraph - your arrogance really isn't an endearing quality. Your case on me was complete shit and I countered it completely. How can you say you would have won the 1v1 when this was the case and you had nothing to say back? I'm also

not

scumreading you for disengaging with me.

[Luca Blight]

Wait what the fuck? Why the read change? This feels strange

and if Luca is town as everyone seems to think

Since when did everyone think I was Town?

Even if that were the case, since when is that a valid reason to abandon your scumread?

Do you really not acknowledge any reasons that I may be town, independent from what anyone else says?

[Luca Blight]

Starting to catch-up again...

*Sigh* I think I've come to the conclusion lynching in Pintu/Anen would be our best bet.

VOTE: Pintu

Anen can be the Vig shot (or vise versa if so you prefer)

Based on....?

-----


595 - Don't really get why Anen takes back his townread of Pin here. Is this actually based on the content of 392 itself? It's weird how he snips off part of Pin's reasoning here. The time tag comment that follows is bad as well - he's assuming Pin didn't post without reading recent posts (something I do myself sometimes) or merely get distracted while posting. What motivation has Pin to deliberately vote Creature only to immediately rescind it?

[Luca Blight]

615 Math - Just because Ceature has been right in the past doesn't mean he'll be right this time. And if he's shit at giving reasons then how can they even be '

good reads

' so much as '

lucky guesses

'? It's like someone wearing their lucky underpants for their trip to the bookies. '

It worked last time so maybe it'll work again'.

Yes, I don't believe you completely explained the Gamma towntell? You mentioned something about voting Creature, but I'd like to know exactly the details behind this.

You don't have to say anything back to my counter-points, but don't go around subequently saying you won the 1v1 or try to use points I countered to say I'm scum.

617 - Math earlier condemned MS vigs for going for the

'hero

' kills that hurt town, yet here he is saying he'd love a Luca vig kill for pretty selfish reasons.

[Luca Blight]

@Anen

- I just don't get why scum-Pin would see Creature's 'content' (it wasn't even that much tbf), pretend not to see it and proceed to suspect him for lack of content, before rescinding everything a short while later. At best it would just be a completely pointless exercise? What does he gain as scum here?

[Luca Blight]

I like Mutant's case on Gamma. It reminded me of the problem I had with Gamma's vote of me and subsequent shift onto Anen - it felt like he never even wanted to wagon me.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Gamma

[Luca Blight]

That's L-2 btw.

[Luca Blight]

Oh wait, it's L-1.

UNVOTE:

[Luca Blight]

Oh wait, it's L-1.

UNVOTE:

Could you explain me why putting him on L-1 was a bad decision, even if you thought Mutant's case on Gamma was good? Are you not entirely convinced? If not, what's the difference between putting him on L-2 and L-1?

1) Accidental hammerings can happen
2) Indeed I'm not convinced; I've not even had the chance to ISO Gamma yet.
3) L-2 is decent pressure while L-1, as I mentioned, runs the risk of accidental/lolhammering and also draws out a claim.

[Luca Blight]

why would he claim prematurely without intent

Have you honestly never seen this happen?

[Luca Blight]

@Math:

I've seen it many times.

What situation are you referring to exactly?

@A50

- Still waiting for an explanation to 589.

[Luca Blight]

Yes, of course I'll ISO and give my thoughts on Gamma, but it won't be for at least 12 hours as I'm about to sleep.

[Luca Blight]

But in this case I'd have put him at L-1 without being entirely convinced, so it would quite feasible that he should come back from it.

[Luca Blight]

scum never actually rolefishes, that's just a dumb tell and is part of why i stopped listening to luca's points there

wtf?

Where did I ever say scum rolefishes?

[Luca Blight]

Math, how are you reading jmo currently?

[Luca Blight]

@Luca: Based on my view. What's it to you? I asked my mother and agrees too.

You've said nothing about either of them, other than that they should either be lynched/vigged. I don't particularly scumread either of them right now (although I still need to ISO) so I'm wondering what you're basing your reads on?

[Luca Blight]

I'm pondering certain things right now

I thought you'd already sorted Creature?

[Luca Blight]

Not sure why that quoted Gamma; was meant for Math.

[Luca Blight]

Do you not care that A50 scumreads your locktown read and wants him vigged?

[Luca Blight]

I would expect you to care if you were genuinely sorting A50, yes.

You said earlier you're a

'team player

' which is why you revised your scumread of me; most people don't want to lynch me so you considered perhaps you were wrong. Why does A50's scumread of Paradox not make you question your locktown read there? Why does it not make you question where A50's scumread is coming from?

[Luca Blight]

Gonna do some ISO'ing, starting with

Anen

...

177 - Most of his observations here are NAI/pointless. For example, he says jmo is right about 54, but why is this a relevant thing to point out?

179 - A lot more useless stuff here. Asking what the point of A50's fluff posts are is as useless as those fluff posts themselves; what sort of answer is he expecting to get here? I agree jmo's reaction to being wagoned was suspect, but not because of possible 'role-fishing'. One of the few points I agree with Math on are that scum rarely role-fish. I get pinged by how quick he is to town-read me based on out-dated meta, and admits he actually skips the 1v1 between me and Math - perhaps he doesn't want to bother reading an argument between players whose alignment he already knows? He says the one thing he doesn't like about me is the OMGUS vote - this looks as though he's finding something to make his view look balanced and considered, but OMGUS isn't actually inherently scummy, and Anen scumread the same post I voted jmo on himself?

181 - I'm noticing a theme of wall posts that lack actual content.

184 - Puts Mutant into 'null' purely because Math said his read might be wrong? Math also said Jay is unreadable, so why is Jay in scum here? How would you expect A50 to play as Town?

246 - Asks whether the 'fight' between Math and myself is just a clash of playstyles and therefore NAI? Well, Anen didn't even read said argument so why even ask about something you have zero interest in? The argument was nothing about theory, so definitely not NAI.

250 - Another quote wall with little content.

254 - A completely pointless question.

261 - Anen votes Gamma mainly for the fact he didn't vote me immediately upon suspecting me due to not knowing what the VC was. I feel Anen pushes this point a bit too hard here - it's weird but not exactly a huge scumtell.

446 - Another catch-up with little analysis.

452 - What exactly about Jay's post was townish? Anen's comment:

"Hmmm. This was for the Jay–Pinturicchio interaction. I don't think either of them is scum but if one of them flips so, the other one could be scum too"

, is horrible.

Tbc...

[Luca Blight]

...I'm in the middle of Iso'ing so I can make an educated vote.

[Luca Blight]

595 - No, I don't see Mutant's comment as a soft chainsaw? As I already stated earlier, I don't like Anen's reasoning for rescinding his townread on Pin here - there is no scum motivation for Pin to pretend not to see Creatures posts, write a post suspecting him for lack of content, and then rescind it when he later pretends to suddenly see it.

599 - No, the 'war wall' between me and Math was not about playstyle. And this doesn't explain your easy townread on me either.

623 Another post with little input. It makes me feel as though he's trying to look busy by making big-looking posts, but there's so little content in them.

641 - I guess this explains why he was so hard on the Gamma thing I mentioned earlier. Perhaps you can explain more about the 'nit-picking' that wasn't in that game but is evident here?

655 -

"Earlier I had a townread on Mathdino, because I thought his whole argument with Luca was mostly about playstyle differences"

- How is that a reason to townread Math?

689 - Anen just said Mutant's case on Gamma was 'strong', but now votes him for scumreading everything Gamma says? To be honest, I feel it's natural to do that when ISO'ing someone - you look at the posts with the mindset that that player is scum. I'm kind of doing the same to you now, Although I'm trying to be as objective as possible with my analysis.

[Luca Blight]

Anen's recent posts have generally been Ok, but nothing particularly stands out.

Overall I don't see much reason to Townread him and I'm fine with lynching here today, but I want to ISO one or two others before I lay down my vote.

[Luca Blight]

Mutant

His opening gut-pinged me a bit.

I do find his apparent surprise that people suspected his self-vote odd as well - Such an opening could be townie if it's intended to move the game forward by deliberately drawing such suspicion on himself, but to dismiss such suspicion clearly means this wasn't his intention.

32 - I kind of agree with Anen's point that it looks as though Mutant is tip-toeing around voting him here. I remember Mutant from my previous game was reluctant to place his vote without good reason, though.

167 - Mutant said he likes the discussion between me and Math as we're both players he'd like to sort, but I don't believe he ever goes on to comment on our discussions or openly attempt to sort us? He says he distrusts me here but doesn't specify why.

185 - So basically Mutant was going to unvote as soon as Anen said something? It just seems like a pointless move on Mutant's part.

340 - A spammy posting style is not

'inherently scummy

' - that is literally how a number of players on this site play every game regardless of alignment.

395 -

"Should we not be waiting a little while longer before voting up Creature if he's saying his activity is going to increase?"

- I don't like this question; it's basically asking the town to stall progression.

399 - Has me down as a 'scum-lean' even though he's not commented on me at all other than to say he 'distrusts me', without actually saying why he distrusts me. His whole attitude to the Math v Luca things just feels really lazy to me. I don't know why he's townreading Anen - that doesn't match-up with what he's posted so far. I don't like how he's repeatedly following Math this game either.

tbc...

[Luca Blight]

410 - Is bad.

469 - He's talking about doing stuff but not actually doing stuff. I don't see why he has to wait for NSG to post before pushing Gamma.

649 - Decent question.

650 - I don't like the confidence of his Math townread. Myself and others have repeatedly pointed out reasons why Math is scummy, which Mutant has ignored.

657 - Is a decent case on Gamma, as I already said.

[Luca Blight]

696 - "

But they don't outway the scum I see in him and having a single fabricated read is a huge scum tell in my opinion. Townies don't just make up their reads. If they don't know how to read someone they place them in null

" - to be honest, I feel like Mutant similarly fabricated his earlier scumread of me.

I will probably analyse Mutant's recent responses to Gamma when I have more time, but upon skimming nothing immediately jumps out.

I'd like an updated readslist from Mutant soon. Right now I'm scum-leaning Mutant and am open to the idea of lynching him today.

[Luca Blight]

What has A50 done to earn your trust?

@Pin - I will continue to iso soon, but I want to allow time for people to interact in between so it's not just me filling up the entire thread.

[Luca Blight]

I meant what has A50 done to earn your trust this game? What makes you confident he is town?

[Luca Blight]

Mutant's play here is very different to the other game I played with him; he was a lot more forthcoming and assertive, and was easily townread by everyone. The only post that reminded me of his play from that game was his inital case on Gamma.

That was his first game on this site though so maybe he's changed a bit.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: Compare this from Mutant's Town game:

Hey, so here are my reads that nobody asked for:

Yuria - Slightly scummy in my opinion. They only have 2 posts and they avoided a question with another question. Whilst this stuff isn't really a scum tell overall they don't seem that useful to the town so I would be up for lynching them since we don't know much day 1.
Ectomancer - Whilst I'm split on the tell of their tactic to force wagons on us, they seem fairly reasonable and like someone who is willing to at least contribute a lot. So at the moment, I think they are worth keeping around.
IceGuy - I don't really get many vibes from him of either alignment. I don't really see why there are votes against him.
DeasVail - He seems very friendly. To the point where I would derp clear him as town. Though this is mafia, so a nice guy approach might just be a facade.
Transcend - His posts consist of a whole lot of nothing and some of them are somewhat misleading. The only credit I could give them right now is that they are active. But the slight scumminess in the lack of sense that they are writing means I would be comfortable lynching them at this stage.
Fishythefish - I trust the fishy for now. I would like to see him post a little more though as I feel like he has more to offer than what we've seen so far.
Elmo TeH AzN - Her posts are short and brief which isn't too useful. I don't think there is anything scummy about her, but due to her lack of meaningful contribution, I would be willing to lynch them day 1.
Luca Blight - Another player that seems reasonable in what they are saying. I feel like he has a way of seeing wider logic which I think is useful late game.
kelbris - I like his logic and how he offers his opinion into the discussion. He is a seemingly useful player that I would not be comfortable lynching day 1.
sheepsaysmeep - He seems rather unnoticeable to me. Before isolating his posts I only thought he had 1. Other than that they seem okay though.
havingfitz - I don't like how he passively suggested Transcend revealed being the IC so early in the game. Pretty scummy if you ask me. Whether or not they are indeed mafia I think this kind of bad thinking wouldn't be helpful to town in the long run so I'd be willing to lynch them day 1. Despite this, they do seem like they would be helpful.
Lil Uzi Vert - He has not been helpful in anyway whatsoever. Hist posts are literally just an introduction, votes, and a single emoji. Based on how I vote on day 1 lynches, which if you haven't noticed is more based on usefulness than it is scum tells, he is the person I would be most prepared to lynch.

mutantdevle - He seems like an utter noob which can get annoying. Not sure what to make of this guy.

davesaz - They haven't spoken in a long time. I'd like to see them speak more.




Btw my attitude towards day 1 lynches is, since we don't know much, I prefer to lynch based on how useful I think the players will be. The only time I really move away from this is if either someone makes a proper slip and we can actually be fairly confident that they are actually scum or the pressures of time means that I'd have to vote for somone I am not really okay with lynching but still think it is worth losing them in order to not end the day in a no lynch.

Spoiler: To his reads list in this game:

Reads list here, if anyone wants me to explain any of them then feel free to ask:

Town

Mathdino

Town lean

JaydragonKing
Aneninen
TheGoldenParadox

Null

Almost50
Pinturicchio
jmo16mla

Scum lean

Luca Blight
northsidegal
Creature

Scum

Gamma Emerald


VOTE: Creature
I was going to vote Gamma here but then Math posted 397. Slightly cautious that Math is scum trying to guide us but I don't believe that based on my town read and I'm sure if those pings are true then there'd be something to it later in the game.

Also note the first one is earlier in the game than the one he posted this game - too early for such a reads list really, but just look at the curiosity and enthusiasm in that post as well as his comfortable tone.

[Luca Blight]

@Math

- any reason I went from 'null' in 780 to 'null-scum' in 853?

[Luca Blight]

And why am I so far down

your

list, NSG?

I notice you haven't spoken about me all game.

[Luca Blight]

I look forward to you showing where I misrepped because I don't believe I did.

I also want to know why Mutant is so high on your list.

[Luca Blight]

1. He said jmo is right about the mod's vc links not being important. How is that a useful thing to point out?

2. Game-relevant maybe, but I don't think he's doing a whole lot in that post.

3. I disagree; Gamma's vote on me is what prompted Anen's vote.


You accuse me of

'nit-picking'

but I feel you're doing the same to me here.

[Luca Blight]

@NSG:

1. My point was that his posts are filled with stuff that isn't really game-changing. I'm suspicious of long looking posts that don't actually do a great deal.

2. Everything about the post is meh, including the questions he asks. The only thing of note is taking the stance that Gamma's FoS of me was 'poop'.

3. We'll have to agree to disagree here. The point he emphasised the most was undoubtedly Gamma's vote on me.

4. I feel like you're nit-picking my ISO'ing. Were there parts of my ISO'ing you liked/agreed with?

[Luca Blight]

I'm concerned about accidentally hammering
but since you say it's fresh
VOTE: Luca Blight

NoNoNoNoNONONO!
We know that you'd been reading the game before this and your FoS-post.
Even if someone doesn't know whether a wagon consists of 3 or 4 people, they MUST know whether it's fresh or close to hammer.
Your whole catch-up was about producing content-looking posts without any scumhunting behind. You picked a couple of things, and made up a couple of reads.
Scum do such posts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Luca Blight]

It's not even an important point; NSG is just nitpicking the minute details of my post.

[Luca Blight]

You're quibbling over whether the point that prompted Anen's vote was actually his main point, or whether his general summary was his main point. It's irrelevant.

You didn't answer my last post; I want to know if you liked/agreed with any of my ISO'ing.

[Luca Blight]

You also didn't answer why Mutant is so high on your list.

Did you read Mutant's cases against Gamma? I want to know your thoughts on them.

[Luca Blight]

Continuing with the ISO'ing...

PIN

119 I don't really like how Pin mistakenly townread Math for the daytalk question, but then reaffirms his townread because Math points this out - I can understand Pin's point, but it just feels like he wants to townread Math regardless here; his initial reasoning was weak anyway.

172 - As I mentioned, this post really pinged me for the appeasement of it.

228 - His explanation here feels kind of genuine.

310 - I like his aggressive questions towards Gamma. It would be a bold move if Pin is scum, unless he and Gamma are partners.

392 & 396 are generally Ok, but I'm wondering if Creature's content is enough for Pin to say

'my scumread has gone with the wind

'?

tbc...

[Luca Blight]

591 - I can understand his townread of me here. I like his whole '

townreads

' bit, actually. In fact, this whole post is really well considered.

592 - Why is that Townie? I couldn't find your reasoning for that.

798 - I like this - a thoughtful justification for his stance on Gamma this game which makes sense to me.


I've seen enough to take a decent townread from this. Not lynching here today.

[Luca Blight]

NSG

Mostly she posts reasonable-looking questions that could come from either alignment, so I'll keep this to the ones that stick out.

544 - why was it necessary for everyone voting you to reveal their Math read?

548 - avoids taking a real stance on Creature. I think Creature (or anyone) would be able to put more effort in without being told to by a partner, so I disagree with this point.

729 - I don't understand why she's scumreading Pin's reads post? Show me the newbscum post you were referring to as well.

733 - Not sure why she felt the need to let Paradox know she's townreading him while asking him this question.

749 & 876 - I don't see this point at all. He explained more this game, but more explanation =/= scummy at all. If you're going to throw shade on Pin here then at least say what is scummy about the content of his post - not just that it has more words than a reads list of his in his first game.

And that's up to our recent interaction.

Overall I see more bad than good, although her tone generally seems Townie enough. I would have her as null, possibly leaning null-scum - I don't want her lynched today as I believe she'll be easier to sort as the game progresses.

[Luca Blight]

Another point on NSG:

She complained earlier about being scumread/wagoned while she was absent. Why then is NSG sitting on her jmo vote still when he hasn't been around for ages?

[Luca Blight]

1. I didn't say it wasn't a good question, I just don't get why she asked it.

2. I have partnered scum-Creature once myself. I just believe in a game where everyone knows him he could easily step it up a little bit at least.

3. Fine.

4. More explanation - that's what she said; how is it a misrep? I'm going through her ISO not to sort Pin (I did that by myself), I'm going through

all

the lynch candidates ISO's to see where I want my vote. I don't see how it's a good read at all.

5. I'm not necessarily saying it's scummy; stop putting words into my mouth. It's a valid question, you just don't like how I worded it.


I feel like you're twisting it to make it look as though I'm casing her or something, when I clearly stated she is a null read who I don't want lynched today.

[Luca Blight]

No, you're just twisting my ISO'ing to make it look like I'm casing her.

I wasn't saying all that was scummy, hence why she's a

null

read.

[Luca Blight]

I mean, you even cut out of the quote the positive things I said about her, which is pretty disingenuous.

[Luca Blight]

My Pin ISO'ing concluded him with being a townread I don't want lynched, so you're talking out of your arse quite frankly.

[Luca Blight]

That part wasn't bad tho

Do you want a cookie for it lol

Every iso you do looks like you're casing people

Disincentivises actually answering your questions or responding

And you just admitted you focused on the 'bad' aspects of the post while ignoring the good. At least when I ISO people I include stuff I think was decent - such as Mutant's Gamma case.

[Luca Blight]

I mean it's also blatantly based on bad towntells

Taking effort to explain things and pretty explanations does not a townie make

I liked the thought behind his Gamma stance - it seemed well considered and genuine. Do you disagree?

[Luca Blight]

So who do you think I've been tunneling this game?

How is the way I generate reads unfounded? Give me an example of this.

[Luca Blight]

No, we talked through two examples of you talking out of your arse.

You made out I was scumreading NSG when I wasn't.

You made out my Pin read was bad, I explained it was based on his Gamma stance.

Tell me what's unfounded exactly.

[Luca Blight]

You just proved you're even reading the ISO's you're slating so much, otherwise you'd have seen the Gamma stance already.

[Luca Blight]

You just proved you're not even reading the ISO's you're slating so much, otherwise you'd have seen the Gamma stance already.

EBWOP

[Luca Blight]

You're the one being a dick continuously making out my play is bad.

Anyway, I will explain why I townread that post in a bit, have to take care of my son atm.

[Luca Blight]

Pin is justified in his feeling of being pocketed. The fact he's pushing this point seems townie to me, especially from a newer player, and I like the thought-process he describes.

Math's just dismissing it without even acknowledging the

reasons

for why he feels he's being pocketed, which seems scummy to me.


Anyway I'm sick of this guy twisting my words and generally dismissing everything I say, so yeah...

VOTE: Math

[Luca Blight]

A parody of Math from that argument, in his own style:


Luca:

*iso's NSG*

Math: WAIT THAT'S NOT SCUMMY, NOTHING YOU THINK IS SCUMMY IS SCUMMY

Luca: Hold on, I'm not actually scumreading her-

MATH: YOU THROW SHADE ON EVERYONE YOUR CONTENT IS BAD

Luca: But I just townread Pin-

Math: THAT WAS BAD AS WELL EVERYTHING YOU DO IS BAD

Luca: But I liked his stance on Gamm-

Math: YOU'RE WRONG IT WAS BAD

[Luca Blight]

Anen, vote Math with me.

@mod

- a VC would be appreciated.

[Luca Blight]

Judging people's alignment based on possible partners is a terrible way to play, particularly on D1. Basically any decent scum player is going to slip through your grasp using that method.

You accuse my method of attaining reads of being unfounded, but yours seems absurd to me.

[Luca Blight]

I use PoE as well, but I don't clear players for having no possible partners unless there's real concrete evidence to do so. I just played a game where scum bussed so convincingly D1, no-one would have guessed who the partner was if they weren't watched making the kill.

The scum motivation is obviously to convince people you're genuinely scumhunting, or 'townhunting' as you say. You might really adopt this method, I don't know, but I'm scumreading you regardless. Tbh pretty much from the start of the game, even when I was doing my first skim-through, your tone pinged me and I felt you were trying to powerwolf proceedings. I don't like how you try to dictate where discussion goes, while maintaining the facade of being the 'pro-town' player who wants to hear from everyone. I don't like how you continually twist the words of people who oppose you. I don't believe you're being genuine at all - you hid most of the game behind ill-conceived gambits, meaning your inconsistencies couldn't be held against you. I just think you're scum.

[Luca Blight]

You also have no direction - what have you done recently, apart from argue with me while I was trying to sort the game?

Given you adopted the role of 'town leader', you're pretty much doing f*ck all.

[Luca Blight]

If you get in these 1v1's every game perhaps that says something about you?

Quite clearly you've been twisting my words - earlier you made out pretty much every post I made was 'victimisation', which is complete and utter bollocks. You strip away the context to make it suit your agenda.

It's not just about tone, as you well know. You have been misrepping me and twisting my words for most of the game, and since your 'gambits' you've done jack shit, despite posting a lot of words. You're just existing in the thread - you're not particularly pushing anything.

You want to discredit me presumably because I'm scumreading you, or perhaps just to look busy. You said how bad 1v1's are for town but you needlessly started another by discrediting and misrepping me yet again.

[Luca Blight]

"

Why start doing it when it was literally just in reaction to you going after jmo? Why half-ass a case on you? Why keep discrediting you when I'm not pushing you, and that would clearly taunt you into voting me?

"

And you asked me what the scum motivation for this is, but I don't really see the town motivation to be honest?

[Luca Blight]

1. Right, so you're taking credit for Creature talking lol. I was under the impression if he's town then that would happen naturally anyway?

2. If you mean by your gambits - they were so bad you couldn't read much from her reaction to them.

3. Blocking lynches on A50 and Paradox? When has anyone tried to lynch them?

4. You didn't really '

push

' anything - you simply wagon-hopped. This doesn't qualify as scumhunting or 'townhunting'.

5. You're not inflicting any damage on anyone, and your last part is just LAMIST.

[Luca Blight]

osition and the town broke because they literally had him do all the work, making everyone think he was trying to be the scum town leader.

I just don't particularly see him doing a great deal, to be honest?

All Math has done since the gambit is:

Argue with me
Vote me without any sort of push
Post one vague readslist
Post a slightly less vague readslist
Vote Anen without questioning or pushing him at all
Argue with me some more

[Luca Blight]

I said your last part was LAMIST, so stop twisting things yet again.

I wasn't the one who started questioning you - you're the one who keeps trying to reason why I shouldn't be scumreading you.

[Luca Blight]

You said I kept questioning you - I didn't start by asking any questions; I was just giving my view on what you said.

[Luca Blight]

That was kind of a rhetorical question to emphasise my point.

I never intended to get into another argument - as you can see my first posts where just me giving my view with no questions at all.

Btw you started the questions in 945.

[Luca Blight]

You say you want to end this, yet you keep going?

I'm not just talking about the last 24 hours - ever since your gambit I haven't seen any real drive from you. You stated what you apparently did, but I don't find it particularly impressive. Also players don't have to be around to do stuff - hence my ISO'ing, which you were very dismissive of.

I didn't tie up much of NSG's time, and she was the one nitpicking my posts, not the other way around.

[Luca Blight]

You say you want to end this, yet you keep going?

Just so you're aware - this is also a rhetorical question; I don't actually require an answer for it.

[Luca Blight]

What about jmo? You can't have towncleared him surely?

I'm not sure why you're so sure you'll die at night and I won't, when more people have suspected you this game than me.

[Luca Blight]

Jmo

65 - Wants to get me to L-1 before I entered the game. I want to explain why this pinged me - it's nothing to do with victimisation; I would genuinely be saying the same if it was someone else he voted. It's because wagoning a player who hasnt entered the game is inherently pointless - RVS wagons are to create info, but what info can be created by wagoning someone who isn't even present? It's picking an easy target, and the way he says

'let's get this to L-1

' obviously based on nothing makes it look as though he's trying to look proactive/aggressive, but why not pick a player already in the thread to do this to? Why not wagon Mutant, instead of questioning Jay's read on him? His motivations between wanting to wagon someone for info and wanting to defend someone for lack of basis to the suspicion against them seem to conflict here.

85 - Switches to Creature, despite the fact I still haven't even entered the thread. His wagoning of me was pointless, and his plan of getting me to L-1 doesn't seem genuine. Again it seems like he's picking on an easy target here to look proactive.

96 - Apparent happiness to a vote against him, which feels forced. It's a serious vote by NSG, and the natural townie reaction would be to question it and maybe try to ascertain if NSG's suspicion is coming from a genuine place. His faux-happiness at being voted seems to be saying

'look at me, I don't care if I'm voted

' - it serves no other purpose.

100 - Math then joins in the voting and suddenly jmo's happiness is replaced by ':/' which I would interpet as disappointment? Why question Math's vote but not NSG's?

110 - Back to his positivity at being voted - you can see how this appears forced.

He then defended himself a bit and then gradually disappeared.

I have Jmo as a scum-lean. There's no need for Math to comment on this as I'm already aware he disagrees with both my jmo read and my ISO'ing.

[Luca Blight]

*Sigh* I think I've come to the conclusion lynching in Pintu/Anen would be our best bet.

VOTE: Pintu

Anen can be the Vig shot (or vise versa if so you prefer)

This is townie. Read my post for why I think this.

Pin, still wondering why you think this is Townie? I can't see your reasoning for it.

[Luca Blight]

ignoring meta (lazy), there's almost definitely some number of scum in {Luca, jmo}

luca can be scum yeah

Math, I don't think you ever explained this. Why made you think there was definitely scum in me and jmo at this point?

[Luca Blight]

To be honest I can't get a firm grip on this game. I feel the fact there are so many meta players here conflicts with my style; I don't feel I can scumhunt freely as a result.

Paradox and Creature are town reads

Pin I'm less sure on after his recent conversation with Math - his tone just pings me, but I'm leaning town still.

Gamma is a town-lean

Could probably push NSG to a town-lean - need to see more from her though.

I'd be fine lynching any of the others tbh. I wouldn't mind just lynching someone like Jay and hoping for the best - he's offering literally nothing, and presumably that will continue as it appears to be his style of play. If A50 doesn't improve on D2 then he can be lynched Tomorrow.

So yeah, that's where I'm at. I'm gonna take a back-seat and see what happens for the rest of this day.

UNVOTE:

[Luca Blight]

...Because I said I wouldn't mind lynching you?

[Luca Blight]

Why should you be above suspicion?

[Luca Blight]

Well I don't see how saying I don't mind your lynch is scummy or bad, unless you view yourself as above suspicion, so...

[Luca Blight]

I pretty much said it already - I don't think you're contributing anything. The only reason you've got away with it so far is because of your reputation for doing such.

I don't massively scumread you - you're just one out of about half the player list I wouldn't mind lynching.

[Luca Blight]

I can go along with a Jay lynch.

VOTE: Jay

[Luca Blight]

The 'thought' behind you wanting jmo lynched is no better than my 'thought' behind wanting you lynched.

I don't necessarily agree that you were trying to draw out a pr (although if anyone here would do that as scum, I guess you'd be the one), I'd just be happy with your lynch regardless as I don't think you offer much to the game, which isn't going to change as the game progresses.

[Luca Blight]

@Jay

I thought the vig plan was to run someone up to L-1 and then have that player vigged?

I don't see your point with the 'self-case' - Yeah, I could fill up a page pointing out all the irrelevant nonsense you've posted, but what would be the point? Everyone can see how you've been playing this game; I don't need to highlight it.

I like to think as Town you'd show a bit more willing to scumhunt, but given your reputation I'm not sure; you're spinning the wheel in voting jmo and I'm doing the same with you.

[Luca Blight]

I found that town repeating and emphasizing the points for the person they think are scum helps people make an educated decision, Luca. Not just saying "Lynch this dude".

So why does this apply to me and not to you?

Like, you're doing the exact thing you're accusing me of.

[Luca Blight]

"Lynch this dude"

VOTE: Luca Blight

Seems fine to me now, so this will be where I want the Lynch to happen for day 1.

We have a 1/4 chance of hitting scum AND a 1/4 chance of hitting a PR. Its the same probability. Let fate take the wheel, Dino.

VOTE: Jmo

And alrighty then. Dino's perfectly found a scum. Great! And jmo will do shit, hopefully.

VOTE: Aneninen

[Luca Blight]

Pretty sure your vote wasn't RVS, NSG.

And if we need something concrete to lynch Jay then no wonder he always wins as scum - his posting is by and large irrelevant.

[Luca Blight]

Meh. I can compromise on this.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Anen

[Luca Blight]

Care to share the differences?

[Luca Blight]

Ok, thank you. I was not ok voting for Aneninen if that implied risking Jay, as I'm not scumreading her.
VOTE: Aneninen

This pings me as well - not only is it strange logic to not vote Anen, but I don't feel he has a good enough reason to '

not scumread

' Jay to justify such a stance.

[Luca Blight]

The things you quoted are basically just theory/playstyle explanation which he wouldn't have to fake as scum anyway.

If we're following Math's plan then Anen should claim, and then we can wagon someone else after.

[Luca Blight]

Ok, thank you. I was not ok voting for Aneninen if that implied risking Jay, as I'm not scumreading her.
VOTE: Aneninen

This pings me as well - not only is it strange logic to not vote Anen, but I don't feel he has a good enough reason to '

not scumread

' Jay to justify such a stance.

Not scumread her is different than townread her, you know... I have Aneninen as a null as I really don't know how to read him, I'm just sheeping at this point. But if you are indeed correct, a Jay lynch in D2 just because Aneninen was scum doesn't seemed right. I'm just using the information you guys have given about these players: Jay is not a player you want to be in MyLo or LyLo, so better locktown her and get her lynched by scum or scumread her and lynch her, but if you start with little things like "Jay is probably scum if Aneninen flips scum", then the paranoia will be huge the next days; that's why I made a simple question to Dino, and he gave me a simple answer.

Hence why I said '

not scumread

' instead of '

townread'

, but that actually proves my point more - You didn't want to vote Anen for fear it risks someone you're not even townreading? It's a weird stance.

Anyway, I'm Ok joining this.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Pin

[Luca Blight]

After skimming, I'm townreading Pin's reaction but not particularly townreading Anen's; even if he's a dead man I feel Town would at least be inclined to give their thoughts on events. It feels a bit like scum giving up to me.

[Luca Blight]

Yeah it is weird how Pin jumped off Mutant, tbf.

[Luca Blight]

Fair enough Pin, but why not vote Mutant when the wagon built? He was clearly your favoured lynch, or so it seemed.

[Luca Blight]

@Pin:

But then if we followed you and voted A50 then presumably that would also draw out a claim, so...

[Luca Blight]

I'm thinking lynch Anen - vig Pin is probably the best course of action here.

F*ck knows what the vc is, though.

[Luca Blight]

Pin, when it looks as though you're about to die it's always good to give a final reads list - if you flip Town then it can be something useful to refer to.

[Luca Blight]

I don't get why we're no longer lynching Anen - the plan was to get two wagons, which we've got, so why now are we pushing a third?

It's in danger of turning farcical.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Anen

---

I believe the vc is this:

jmo16mla

(1): Creature

Aneninen

(3): Paradox, Math, Luca Blight

mutantdevle

(2): Aneninen, Jay

Mathdino

(1): Gamma

JaydragonKing

(1): jmo16mla

pinturicchio

(3): northsidegal, mutantdevle, Almost50

Almost50

(1): Pintu

Not Voting

: no-one

[Luca Blight]

I think I made a mistake there, I'll go back and check again.

[Luca Blight]

I believe this is correct now:

jmo16mla

(1): Creature

Aneninen

(3): Paradox, Math, Luca Blight

mutantdevle

(3): Aneninen, Gamma, Jay

JaydragonKing

(1): jmo16mla

pinturicchio

(3): northsidegal, mutantdevle, Almost50

Almost50

(1): Pintu

Not Voting

: no-one

[Luca Blight]

I believe Math started your wagon - something about people not pushing your wagon when they could have, meaning you must be scum. I don't particularly agree with this, but I think you're a good chance to flip scum for my own reasons which I covered in my ISO'ing, which I guess boils down to little content despite some big looking posts, and some dubious reasoning behind your reads. Add to that throwing the toys out of your pram after being wagoned - it's not something that I saw as a Townie reaction.

Pin - NSG started the wagon with little or no reasoning, from what I can remember. What generally seemed to spark it was his comment that he didn't want to vote you for fear it might risk Jay, who he's not even townreading. I've personally been very torn on Pin throughout, but now he's claimed VT he's fair game for the vig.

Mutant - Math/A50 for some reason wanted to start this wagon up, despite already having the two wagons we required. I don't remember much reasoning, other than your reaction seemed town to Math which meant either me or Mutant could be scum...I've personally been torn on Mutant but his recent posting seems townie.

[Luca Blight]

Actually, upon re-reading I no longer find Mutant's recent posts Townie: His vote on Anen really reads as though he's trying to distance himself from a mislynch.

His reasoning for suddenly being happy with his vote when initially he wasn't seems jumbled as well, for example; pointing out that Pin hasn't particularly scumread Anen yet voted him, but that's stripping away the context that people were being encouraged to sheep - which is why Mutant himself reluctantly voted Anen in the first place.

[Luca Blight]

@Anen

- my ISO'ing of you was mainly just my opinions of your posts. If you were willing to repond to thoe points then you would have, but I don't see why I should press you for it; it's not as if you're going to agree with my scumread of you.

I was aware your vote was sitting on Mutant, but that seemed pretty inconsequential to the recent wagon that formed on him.

[Luca Blight]

Actually, upon re-reading I no longer find Mutant's recent posts Townie: His vote on Anen really reads as though he's trying to distance himself from a mislynch.

His reasoning for suddenly being happy with his vote when initially he wasn't seems jumbled as well, for example; pointing out that Pin hasn't particularly scumread Anen yet voted him, but that's stripping away the context that people were being encouraged to sheep - which is why Mutant himself reluctantly voted Anen in the first place.

How was my vote on Anen distancing myself from a mislynch? Gamma was definitely not getting lynched at that point. Unless you mean my uncertainty in the vote was forged so I wouldn't be criticised for playing a part in an Anen mislynch?

Yes, I was referring more to the latter point, but don't you see the simlarity behind your's and Pintu's vote? Pintu was voting you, which wasn't a viable lynch at the time, so sheeped his town read into voting Anen, as did you.

As for Pintu, I don't think sheeping is acceptable. Ever. Not even when encouraged to and I hate doing it myself. It gives scum a free pass in not having to say their opinion. If you can't give a genuine personal reason as to why you are on a wagon or you are purely piggybacking off of someone else's then, in my eyes, that makes you likely to be scum. If you're going to sheep something like math's plan, then at least say a few words about how you agree with such a plan and why. Don't just walk through a door without a care just because someone is holding it open for you.

Sheeping isn't acceptable, yet you did it yourself? It's also wrong theory-wise, imo; basically 'sheeping' in this context is 'compromising' - there is no way Town can reach a lynch without this, unless there is a ridiculously obvious lynch candidate. Yeah, I guess people could say a few words about Anen while sheeping, but all you said is he's a bit scummy tonally which doesn't massively put you above the others, imo.

[Luca Blight]

End of the day, I'm willing to straight up sheep Creature on this one in absence of solid reads of my own.

...but Creature's voting jmo?

[Luca Blight]

Anen's vote was made ages ago, so obviously not due to countering. Jay has been sheeping anything and everything. Gamma has scumread Mutant for ages. Creature's comment is baseless.

It also ignores that you and A50 basically reignited that wagon.

[Luca Blight]

Like, just because Creature has been right before, it doesn't justify such blind faith in his reads.

I just played a game where he single-handedly lost town the game from a winning position, so I'll be taking his views with a pinch of salt.

[Luca Blight]

I'd say if anything was a counter-wagon then it was Pin's, started by NSG based on little or nothing. Her reasons for not wanting an Anen lynch also weren't up to much.

I'm also lacking townreads; I feel Gamma, Creature and Paradox are Town, and that's all I'm comfortable with at the moment. I've also paranoid of a Math/Paradox scumteam, but I'll leave that theory until a later date.

[Luca Blight]

I feel if Math is Town then Paradox is Town, but if Math is scum then my suspicion of Paradox goes up.

The reason being that it could have been a strategy pre-game for Paradox to heavily scumread Math throughout to justify Math's locktown read of him. I ganced through one of Math's scum pt's from a past game and the first thing he said to his partner was '

should we bus each other or locktown each other

', so I believe this would be within his scum range.

[Luca Blight]

it's not as if you're going to agree with my scumread of you.

Regardless of what I answer...

What?

Don't knowingly ignore points against you and then complain about being ignored.

I was aware your vote was sitting on Mutant, but that seemed pretty inconsequential to the recent wagon that formed on him.

Inconsequential? Yeah. I actually had (and have) a case on him. Oh wait, I know! It's not the way how this game goes!

...You asked me why the wagons formed and I answered you. The Mutant wagon was nothing to do with your case. You're being petulant.

[Luca Blight]

I would say I'm more likely to get a read on you based on your real-time interactions now; my scumread on you based on my ISO'ing wasn't strong or set in stone by any stretch - I just considered you a decent lynch option.

Btw I mentioned your case in my ISO'ing; I don't believe it's strong as 'scumreading everything in someone's ISO' is something that is easily done as Town; often when you ISO someone you do it from the mindset that they are scum.

I don't particularly trust either Math or A50, but I'm willing to give them another day and see how things pan out.

[Luca Blight]

I also find the notion that 'a case is needed to lynch someone' outdated; good players won't give you a chance to make a case on them as they naturally won't do many scummy things, and if you do make a case they'll be equipped to refute everything.

Scum actually like cases as it gives them something to logically deny/twist; the fact a wagon can build up on them based on stuff like PoE is something that they fear.

[Luca Blight]

1. Well, I've pushed for a Math lynch for most of the day but most think he's Town, so I'm leaving that thought for another day. Other than that you and Mutant are probably the next best options, at the moment.

2. I'm not saying cases are always bad, but you don't

need

to have a case to justify lynching someone, imo - for example, if you wanted to lynch Jay you couldn't ever make much of a case, other than that he posts fluff and irrelevant stuff, which he does as either alignment.

3. No, I never said it's scummy you are annoyed by a PoE scumread - I was talking theoretically.

[Luca Blight]

We've all gone into quite a lot of detail about what the Vigilante should do, and that's fine... But we really should look at the benefits of leaving Pintu alive to shoot someone elsa night one. I really hope it's not the case, but the Vigilante could only get one shot if he's NKed tonight. I'd prefer if they have a valuable shot then a null-town Vanilla Townie slot.

I've kind of been thinking the same for a while now, tbh.

Pin has been obv-towning since his claim. He's not flipping scum.

[Luca Blight]

I don't see what makes Anen's frustration Townie.

[Luca Blight]

His rage that there's been no case against him has been pretty irrational tbh. I could see this coming from scum just as much as Town - scum hate being caught for what they deem to be the 'wrong reasons'. I know I'm a lot more aggressive as scum when people use BS reasons against me.

His whole

'I won't bother posting if people have decided I'm the lynch

' thing seemed more like scum giving up to me - as Town there is no reason not to at least share your thoughts, even if you're definitely going to be killed.

[Luca Blight]

Jay, Anen is trying to counter wagon Math, not Mutant.

[Luca Blight]

You saying I make wallposts when the only really big post I made was full of spoiler tags is just the cherry of the cake of this game. Saying that the reason this game is mainly to wallposts and not because of your fucking lame 1v1 with Luca to see who has the longer dick is just painful, and the lack of posting of other people could be mainly because of neither wallposts and said 1v1, so could you make any good reads at all, Dino?
P-edit: apology accepted, still thinking the 1v1 was much more determinant

i neither started that nor insisted that anyone do anything more than skim that

every time that happened i actively asked to disengage

but then it became

"yo mathdino is scum for dropping the conversation"

like obviously games are much better without 1v1s, i think the content of 1v1s is barely alignment indicative and should largely be skipped

This is just a misrep - I never said this.

[Luca Blight]

I still want an Anen lynch, Jay, although I'm always open to switching if I feel strongly he is Town, which has yet to happen.

[Luca Blight]

If you blatantly misrep me then of course I'm not going to let it pass, Math.

Get your facts in order before saying something about me and I won't have a problem with it - hence why I haven't had the same issues with others in this game.

[Luca Blight]

I disagree he would have to be lynched - I think his posting has been obv-town since his claim, and not just because he requested the vig-kill.

If Paradox or Creature claimed VT would you be saying they would have to be lynched at some point? Of course you wouldn't.

[Luca Blight]

Blatantly stripping away context again, Math.

The first, if you quoted the whole thing, would show it was in relation to you wanting

me

lynched, not the other way around.

The other points are basically the same, or refer to you using the same points against me which I have already refuted.

I

never

said you were scum for disengaging. That

is

a misrep.

[Luca Blight]

I'm not going to aplogise for pointing out blatant misreps against me, Pin.

My quote was

"I replied to your case point for point and you dropped it. If you genuinely want to get me lynched perhaps it would be in your interest to try and show why my questions are of a predatory nature"

But he cut out the second bit to make it look like a reason I was scumreading him, which is just a lie, and I'm suppressing the urge to vote him for it.

[Luca Blight]

I encourage everyone to actually click on the posts Math quoted and see them in full context to see the extent of his misrepping.

[Luca Blight]

But Pin didn't claim VT out of nowhere...

If Paradox was run to L-1 and claimed VT, would you want him vigged?

[Luca Blight]

Sure, go ahead and vig your strongest townread, but at some point in the game you're going to have to trust in your reads, so that just seems counter-intuitive to me.

Who would you rather have in LYLO, for example - your strong townread Paradox who claimed VT, or Jay who is unreadable and will claim anything to save himself?

[Luca Blight]

I also fake claim to save my ass no matter what, so believe me at your own risk..