Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Grib]

VOTE: Thestatusquo

[Grib]

Damn, who crushed Firebringer's spirit?

[Grib]

I want Frog to be an easy townread.

Aisa too.

[Grib]

hows it been grib btw i feel like i havent played with u in a long time

I've been taking a long break from mafia. I played offsite a bit after my last game here, but haven't played at all since sometime last year.

Happy to recognize a few people in this game. It's good to see you, and I hope we can have -some- fun.

[Grib]

Actually, our last game together was my last game on this site. Kids TV Show Mafia or something back in 2016.

[Grib]

not to play the game but i don't know how anyone reads page 1 and get a townread on anyone. Frankly only thing i got aisa was u being weird.

pedit yeah ive been on semi hiatus too. i hope we have fun too. at least i will try to enjoy myself because why play if ur not gonna have fun.

Why did you sign up for this game if the playerlist is meh to you?

Serious question.

[Grib]

I changed my mind a bit. Frog is sus, but not quite scum yet.

[Grib]

Yikes.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Frogsterking

[Grib]

Okay, now you feel almost too scummy to be scum.

Will you tell me about your playstyle? How you tend to handle the early- mid-, and late-game? Why do people who don't know you typically scumread you, and if someone had experience with you, what would they think of your posts so far?

Sorry for the rapid-fire questions, but you intrigue me.

[Grib]

feels like ur doing and saying stuff to generate conversation rather than believing it in any of it

Not necessarily a bad thing to generate conversation. What part lacks belief?

[Grib]

I have at least three problems with that vote, but I never considered a reaction test as a possibility. Maybe?

[Grib]

Nah, I don't think a reaction test vote would have that much reasoning behind it.

[Grib]

Oh, you're familiar with him? Share your secrets.

[Grib]

That's funny, because at first I was ready to lazy-slot them as early townreads.

The universe is so whimsical.

[Grib]

Spoiler: Meta dump

[...]

Now with that said, what about you, Grib? What is your playstyle like in the early, mid and late game, and do you often get scum read for your tone as Town?

I used to have a bad habit of tunneling villagers Day 1 for early scum pings, so now I try to hang back, lob questions, not get too fixated on anything, and silently build a rough PoE to refine Day 2 and onwards. I like having a lot of interactions with as many people as possible, because Day 1 is the most important phase to me.

Middle game I try to push slots I have the most conviction in, or defend slots I really feel are scummy villagers coming under fire.

I don't like endgames because I panic and can't think clearly under that kind of pressure. I don't really have an endgame strategy, just try to reread with an open mind and lean on other villagers' readslists if there's any synergy there.

I'm a very easy townread for people who play with me often, but among strangers, I usually come under heavy pressure early- and mid-game. Honestly, I couldn't tell you why, it's been a long time since I played with mostly strangers (the last handful of years I played exclusively on two sites where roughly half the playerbase at any given time was very familiar with me), but some things I'd get criticized for is having waffly reads, having strong reads that didn't logically make sense to anyone else, fluffposting too much, and other random stuff. Then once scum start flipping, my interactions with them tend to clear me.

I do like Frog's response to me here but I really did not like the snap-Firebringer vote, which I'll explain a little bit later. I'm interested to see in what people have to say about it.

[Grib]

I meant, what peopel have to say about it when I lay out the reasons. But you're right, I don't think I'm going to get much out of waiting.

The problems I have with that vote are

1) it was waaay too early to accuse Firebringer of not wanting to have reads.
2) it was also too early to accuse scum of not wanting to fill out your survey - barely half the game had posted at that time.
3) you didn't explain why scum would or would not interact with your quiz.
4) I purposefully ignored your quiz to see what you would do about it, and you didn't react at all, which makes me think that 2 was complete bull.
5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

[Grib]

VOTE: Aisa

This disappoints me.

[Grib]

5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

this is how i felt about my interactions with frog in the last 2 pages after i said he was scum and he changed it to town then said i have a good read of what he is doing.

now im just confused when half o what i said was like "ur trying to appear town and i don't know why" but i think he was going for "trying to create conversation out of nothing" agreeing with the latter but ignoring the former and was just trying to find common ground.

Im sitting her going ok. Why does it feel like ur buddying me and grib here.m.

I don't want to focus too much on frog though i think this thread could be exploding in too much posts if we just do this back and forth.

Frog doesn't make complete sense but im like less on scum lean than i was before. Still weak scum right now.

Literally, if it hadn't been for that vote, I think I would be townreading him here. There's too many red flags for me to give him the BOTD, but the phase is young.

[Grib]

Man, thank goodness the scumteam isn't Grib/Firebringer/Frog or this would be a really boring game. I know we just started but I expected more than only two other people to have some content worthy of chewing on by now.

[Grib]

I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable and very public information. There's literally no point. What, was he banking on you not remembering?

[Grib]

Shea scared I'm gonna catch him if he posts more than 3 times every 48 hours

Hi I'm still not reading the thread because of baseball related vla.

I hope everyone is having a wonderful time so far.

This is so fucking weird.

[Grib]

I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable and very public information. There's literally no point. What, was he banking on you not remembering?

I don't agree with
"I think it's safe to assume people don't lie about easily verifiable information" people do that all the time and I disagree that's a "safe" assumption especially. And in
mafia I've seen scum lie about more trivial things out of convenience when it had no long term strategic benefit and then not face any consequences when they were discovered because it gets buried under wifomy reasoning like "they wouldn't do that it's too easy to check."

And to answer your question, I don't think it was calculated, I think it was just inconvenient when you asked him about my play for him to have to tell you
"I played scum with him recently and he is garbage, he's probably Town here" and allow us to consolidate a Town core together. I think if anything, he banked on no one taking it seriously if he happened to get called out on it.

That's stupid. If he was going to lie, he could've just said he didn't remember. He didn't even have to bring up that he's played with you before, he did that voluntarily.

[Grib]

Despite being warned that Frog's logic is hard to follow, I just flat out do not like where his worldview is at. None of his posts make sense to me as a villager.

[Grib]

No I can't share them with you.

You would actually be able to get a lim on me.

Is it a complete coincidence that you happened to start posting shortly after Frog called you out?

[Grib]

Honestly, that looks like sarcasm. The first quote literally comes from someone who knows that Malcolm has been eliminated Day 1 before.

[Grib]

Hm.

Skimming that, I would say that Frog does look a lot better this game?

But his posts make my brain go ??? and he literally ran away from answering my concerns about his original vote, so...

[Grib]

None of that is relevant to your alignment, or whether or not you and Frog share a private chat.

[Grib]

I think I need to go to bed.

[Grib]

None of that is relevant to your alignment, or whether or not you and Frog share a private chat.

pretty sure it is relevant if u want to dig into the timing of when he showed up and where he said he was doing at the times previously.

don't know why we want to go into this route. I don't think this is really anything we can dig into without going into conspiracy theory. Nor do I think their interactions scream theatre right now.

I was talking about the whole "this is where I am and what I'm doing and why I'm V/LA" information, which was never in doubt.

[Grib]

All I'm saying is it's a pretty big coincidence for someone who's V/LA to start posting very shortly after they're soft-mentioned in the thread -one- time.

I don't even know if I think Frog is scum. His posts are baffling, and Shea's timing is baffling.

I'm not saying there was a master plan behind this. Just the way it happened is a red flag to me.

[Grib]

It probably is a coincidence, but I'm in conspiracy mode with everyting Frog-related right now, so. Call me crazy.

[Grib]

Like I didn't even know who Shea was until he popped in at that time. Didn't catch the user title in their first post.

[Grib]

It doesn't even have to be a scumchat coordination. Shea could've just been secretly reading the thread, which is not verifiable so I'm not gonna push it.

[Grib]

You know, on one of my homesites, it's a scumtell to get defensive and argue IRL when you get called out for something completely unrelated. I don't care about your schedule, it has nothing to do with why you pinged me.

[Grib]

Nah, you're pretty defensive.

Firebringer, that's fair but also not the point.

[Grib]

I get you're mocking me, I just think you're putting too much effort into it for it to be casual. Try less?

[Grib]

Okay. I'll try talking to you when you've read the game.

Night all.

[Grib]

Good morning. Probably not going to post much today, just to let the thread breathe.

I at least want to see BBT's catch-up before I resume vomiting onto the thread.

[Grib]

Actually no.

I do worry, though, that your hesitance to get involved in any capacity is indicative of scum. But that's a feeling that remains from playing with you once quite a while ago. What are you thinking/feeling right now?

[Grib]

Sooo… I made a case for Frog being scum. As of right now none of the concerns I have have been addressed. The only “defense” I’ve seen is that Frog doesn’t play logically, which isn’t helpful at all.

That being said, he claims that he’s good at sussing scum out on Day 1, so I’m happy to let him scumhunt and reevaluate my own read based on how he does his thing.

Other than that, I really don’t have much to say. Last night more than half the player list had less posts than the mod. I think Fire is town and Frog is scum. Everyone else is a big fat question mark.

[Grib]

Honestly, even if Frog is scum, I’d prefer to find his partners and kill them first because at least Frog is active. Shea is the only one with an excuse to be absent.

I know the game is kinda slow/boring but any sign of effort will do. Really.

[Grib]

I don’t understand why Frog as any alignment would both explicitly acknowledge the post but also deliberately ignore it.

[Grib]

I don’t know what else to call it.

[Grib]

Eh, yeah, that's about what I expected from Shea. There's always at least one player every single game who dislikes either me or my playstyle and then finds a way to scumread me for it.

Probably just going to ignore and play around that slot, to be honest, because if he's a villager there's like 0% chance he ever extends an olive branch.

[Grib]

If there's anything in there that somebody wants me to address, I'm happy to answer. Otherwise, meh.

[Grib]

I've played with people like you before. If I think you're just not going to cooperate with me on principle (which I do), I will play around you. You were kind of rude to me before for no real reason.

The whole point of my "case" on Frog was that those things bothered me, I asked Frog to clarify, and he actively chose not to. That certainly isn't townie, and kind of lends credence to my theory that Frog isn't town.

[Grib]

Actually, I'll expand on my approach here a little bit.

I'm not going to try to justify things in term of what town!Frog would do and what scum!Frog would do. That's meta; I've never played with Frog in my life and I have no intention of doing a meta dive. I asked for a brief summary of his playstyle, and some other people have chimed in, and that's what I'm working with.

So with that in mind (the main point in my mind being that Frog is Hard To Read but Catches Scum Pretty Early), I, a villager that knows next to nothing, notice some patterns in a couple of Frog's posts and I lay them out all nice and neat to see if Frog can explain why he did the things he did. He quotes the post but doesn't address anything. Several pages go by and still, nothing. What am I supposed to make of that?

[Grib]

I did answer the question.

[Grib]

The whole point of my "case" on Frog was that those things bothered me, I asked Frog to clarify, and he actively chose not to. That certainly isn't townie, and kind of lends credence to my theory that Frog isn't town.

I +1 Elements

Sooo… I made a case for Frog being scum.

I think your case comes from a town mindset. I don't think your points necessarily point towards Frog scum though. I can see Frog!town wanting to sort Fire and so not paying as much attention to others doing the same, and I think Frog and Fire's early interactions point in this direction.

So why didn't you say so when you acknowledged my post?

[Grib]

Hm. I kind of like that response.

Kind of annoyed at how you went about it :V but oh well.

UNVOTE:

[Grib]

VOTE: BBT

Not a scumread, but vague feeling that he's trying to lie low. Poke poke.

[Grib]

I guess Elements can also be a squishy townread for trying to pry me off of Frog. But he also has three votes on him for some reason, I'll look at that later.

[Grib]

Sorry, I mixed you up with Enchant, whose gender I'm assuming.

[Grib]

I did answer the question.

You did not. I asked you what made the miriad of things you listed about frogger to be more likely to come from scum than town. You have not answered that.

You asked about town!Frog and scum!Frog, and I answered that those are meta reads and not how I'm approaching him. Now you're generalising your question, which is fine. It's my opinion that a villager wouldn't behave the way he did because he'd be actively preventing me from getting a read on his slot. I also thought he might not know how to answer my questions in a way that would make me back off, and was hoping I'd eventually drop it.

[Grib]

Okay, I think you're mixing up your own posts.

Spoiler:

I meant, what peopel have to say about it when I lay out the reasons. But you're right, I don't think I'm going to get much out of waiting.

The problems I have with that vote are

1) it was waaay too early to accuse Firebringer of not wanting to have reads.
2) it was also too early to accuse scum of not wanting to fill out your survey - barely half the game had posted at that time.
3) you didn't explain why scum would or would not interact with your quiz.
4) I purposefully ignored your quiz to see what you would do about it, and you didn't react at all, which makes me think that 2 was complete bull.
5) you townreading me right after that felt appease-y.

this is a scum post. poking at things that are surface level and look weird but at their core don't have any particular reason why scum would do them rather than town.

I think the whole song and dance that grib did wrt me and frogster falls into the same category of just performative nonsense.

I don't think you think any of this actually helps you find scum.

VOTE: grib

Realistic attempts to sorts don't look like this, generally, this is what scum posts when they want to look involved in the thread but don't have anything real to push on.

This is you quoting my reasons. No question here.

Spoiler:

Eh, yeah, that's about what I expected from Shea. There's always at least one player every single game who dislikes either me or my playstyle and then finds a way to scumread me for it.

Probably just going to ignore and play around that slot, to be honest, because if he's a villager there's like 0% chance he ever extends an olive branch.

No need to extend an olive branch if you do townie things. Explain how any of the things you mentioned are more likely to come from scum frogster than town frogster, please. The "I guess I just need to play around the slot" ain't a townie response to one bit of pressure even a little bit.

I assume this is the question you were asking, which I answered holistically, but apparently not the way you wanted me to because it sounds like you want a line-by-line justification for thinking those reasons were scummy. Is that correct?

[Grib]

I guess I'll go ahead and answer it that way, because if that isn't it either then I really can't imagine what you actually want from me.

Individually, they aren't slam-dunk scumtells. They're quirks in his play that actively caught my attention and made me think that he wasn't approaching the game as a villager because of how many wires he tripped (for me). 1 is a BS reason to vote someone period (slightly scummy), 2 is him ruining his own alleged gambit (his read probably isn't genine), 3 is making up a reason to scumread someone (same reason as 2), 4 circles back to 2 and makes it even less of a genuine gambit, and 5 is kind of a classical/general scumtell.

[Grib]

Anyway, turns out Frog is probably just a goofball and was acting out an obscure inside joke? I dunno, I buy it for now.

[Grib]

That's okay, I didn't really expect you to.

I'll pick this up tomorrow.

[Grib]

Hm.

Can't say I have a ton of faith in the deliberately weak argument method but I want to see where it takes us.

Either he was doing that with me as well or he was just being annoying for fun.

[Grib]

Thanks BBT ^^
I think TSQ comes out of this looking towny. Tbh I feel them getting a bit of a point. I can also see this reaction from Town!BBT, but I think it's a little scum indicative overall, sorry.

What part of it seems town to you, and what part of his reaction moves the needle closer to scum?

[Grib]

I can appreciate you playing the game in a way that makes you happy, especially if you're on my team and conribute to solving the game. But I get easily tilted when deliberately antagonized, which I don't think is going to be worth much alignment-wise. And I don't like being mad at people in a game.

Whether what I focus on has value to you isn't super relevant to me, because I have to process the game with the brain between my skull, not yours.

Not being dismissive or condescending, just laying out my position as clearly as possible to minimize friction.

[Grib]

Cool stuff.

[Grib]

Thanks BBT ^^
I think TSQ comes out of this looking towny. Tbh I feel them getting a bit of a point. I can also see this reaction from Town!BBT, but I think it's a little scum indicative overall, sorry.

What part of it seems town to you, and what part of his reaction moves the needle closer to scum?

Are you asking why BBT's reaction could be town?

I think Town!BBT, like you, wouldn't necessarily give somebody the benefit of the doubt when pushed for a reason he thinks is bad. I think he'd jump right back onto whoever was pushing him, just like he did here.

And although BBT's initial reaction to TSQ's post looks a bit scummy, I don't think there's any point in trying to divine alignment from the fact he continued not to address TSQ's questions for about a page: I think that's something he would do as either alignment. Basically I don't think what he has posted is wholly inconsistent with him being town, there isn't a "part" of his posting that seems towny specifically.

I think you have your answer.

I didn't even say the defensiveness was AI and anyone who has played games with me will know that I don't think defensiveness is a scum tell whatsoever. I was just surprised that the whole tone of the post was as defensive as it was.

As for what moves the needle towards scum for me, this post is worrying because I also interpreted his earlier "defensive much?" as "I think it is suspicious that Eira is so defensive".

I had similar thoughts, but I think that's mostly because TSQ treated me similarly and that makes it almost too easy for me to put myself in BBT's shoes there - I can definitely see a world where a villager pushes back on what they would feel is a cheap "gotcha."

Also agree that all of the posts past the initial reaction are probably more personality-based rather than alignment.

The main point of TSQ's that I agreed with was when BBT cited defensiveness for no real reason. Yeah there are definitely times when I think someone, regardless of alignment, responds to me in an overly-defensive fashion, and that is worthy of poking at. But BBT kind of just left it hanging. I'm also not crazy about the voteswap to TSQ, since it came pretty closely after BBT was leaning into a soft townread on that slot, but that feeling is pretty weak.

[Grib]

I can see what bbt was saying though? Tsq kinda jumped on a thing and then was like 'haha you did a thing' when he responded. It felt like siblings more than s v s or s v t. I don't think tsq is scummy for what they did and I feel they believe in it, I still think it's lame and weird.

This is kind of a unique post and I want to townread it.

[Grib]

I realize I'm townreading most of the active posters.

Problem.

I wish I could murder all the people who aren't really playing.

[Grib]

I'm kind of confused by the "everyone posting is town and ughhhh" sentiments.

Everyone has posted in the last day except for one player. Most of them fairly substantively. Is there anyone in the lurkers y'all in particular want more conversation from?

There is a difference between active posters and recently posted.

Enchant and Not_Mafia are unreadable, probably on purpose. SF doesn't have anything I can really divine. Same with Bella, though she's better than the others - I have a very light townread there but it's nothing I'm confident about with the content she has so far. The dollslot has a fair amount of posts but is kind of just blowing with the wind.

[Grib]

Bleh forgot Eiralox. I like the response to BBT but that's about it.

[Grib]

Minor pros dodge because I’m too lazy to check when I last posted. Happy to see several new pages, just can’t really look at the thread until end of the work day.

[Grib]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: HPE

Just skimming, but 517 is a take I agree with, which I touched lightly on in an earlier post.

I haven’t posted a list yet because I’d probably waffle too much. I’ll post one when I can sit down and take in the thread as a whole.

[Grib]

HPE should not be a townread for the reasons Aisa gave imo. Tacking your own thoughts onto someone else’s reasoning is the easiest way in the world to blend in and actively lurk. I want HPE to get its hands dirty in some meaningful way, anything that signals the slot is trying to solve and not just echo others’ thoughts with a few extra words tacked on like sprinkles on a cupcake.

[Grib]

I think the only way I’ll accept a meta defense (in general) is if someone pushes for it very hard, or if a lot of other people agree with it.

For the record.

[Grib]

:/

[Grib]

Actually, I changed my mind. I’ll be V/LA for the weekend. Got a lot of plans, but also I want to obsess over the Dead by Daylight event.

Will probably do my reread Sunday or Monday.

TSQ, if you could at least help me understand the HPE townread? Or point to where you talked about it, if you did.

[Grib]

This vibe is super fucking weird.

I'm going to be surprised if you're both town here. Honestly, it reads like hard distancing, but I can't imagine what the team would have to be for this to be a viable strategy.

[Grib]

BBT, arguing with TSQ is never going to go anywhere. I imagine it feels good to quip with him, but at this point he has way more leverage than you, even in the world where you are right.

I think right now you should step back a bit and focus on giving a bird's eye view of the game. These type of nou back and forths are a real chore to read.

[Grib]

I'm pretty fucking great. I played DBD for seven hours because priorities.

TSQ, I don't think what you're doing is especially helpful. You're just beating a dead horse, and if you're correct, BBT is just going to wifom everything he says.

[Grib]

Again, you wouldn't expect to die, you would expect the lim to go through but your reasoning be strong enough (which is what you believe, right?) that all would be forgiven and you could go on to drive another mislim. You feel em?

PEdit - You're right, Grib. It is fun though. Do you want something from me?

I skimmed the last couple of pages and saw you had an opportunity to switch your vote to HPE, but you didn't do it. Why keep your vote on TSQ?

[Grib]

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and there's a reasonable chance he's scum. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

[Grib]

Yeah, sorry, but I think this whole "pointlessly argue with the person attacking you" thing is easy for scum to appeal to the masses and look like they're contributing. If you're town, you know people aren't magically going to take your side and send TSQ to the gallows.

[Grib]

I have no interest in killing off a lurker Day 1, as much as I'd like to be rid of them.

BBT is probably going to be the consensus, and there's a reasonable chance he's scum. I'm nowhere near as confident as you seem to be.

how do you think you get information in mafia? You do it by voting people and wagoning them? It's best to do that before 2 seconds before the deadline so you can actually use that information. I'm trying not to be rude but this is mafia 101 and you're now like the third person who has said something like this.

We need to wagon people. If you think there's a chance someone might be scum you wagon them day 1, thats how the game is played. You're never going to have certainty. I don't have certainty. The only people who have certainty d1 are informed because their role PM is red.

Gee, thanks for the lesson in mafia.

You're less wagoning and more tunneling. Wagoning involves other active participants, and no one has gotten above three votes as far as I recall. Which isn't a dig at you, just the whole vibe of this game has been pretty sleepy and stuck in a rut.

[Grib]

And I do agree with that. I think he had plenty of chances to make different decisions that are more villager-indicative, but I don't think those chances were taken.

fake edit: honestly, I got potential scumbuddy vibes when BBT said he'd be happy to vote HPE and then didn't. I figure scum in his position would be eager to wagon a low hanging fruit-ish slot.

Anyway, there's no need to lock in the elimination right now. I'll vote for an actual elimination when I'm good and ready.

[Grib]

Eh, I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. And I'm not interested in making a zillion posts about it tonight.

There's a lot of stuff I missed, I just popped in to see what was happening. I'll look at whatever Solway's response was when I can.

Night.

[Grib]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BBT

[Grib]

Should be five votes for BBT.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: hpe

Everything it posts feels really disengenuous but also like it knows that.

Which posts specifically, and in what way?

[Grib]

Is Solway trolling? The posts on this page look awfully troll-y.

What I really want to know is why BBT’s read on Bella meta-based.

[Grib]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind flipping Aisa. It's not a great reason, but I don't know why but I'm struggling to pin down a definitive feel for her posts. I keep coming away with could be scum could be town shrug.

Have a couple hours free so making my way through the thread now, if anyone's around and wants to poke me.

[Grib]

UNVOTE:

On a reread, I don't really want to kill BBT.

[Grib]

Looking back now, I think Shea's "catch" on BBT would have been waaay more airtight if he could've demonstrated a pattern of behavior, rather than aruging BBT is scum because of one singular reaction test he failed. It's one thing to be like, okay BBT's response to this reaction was on the scummier side - but I think it would've been incredibly valuable to take it a step further. What about BBT's earlier posts is similar to how he reacted to the bait? Or what other questions could one ask him that'll confirm or deny this assumption? Immediately revealing the gambit and then shading all of BBT's posts after the fact made future analysis way harder to parse imo.

[Grib]

I'm also coming back around to a townread on Bella, which is only tangentially related.

[Grib]

I'm having a pretty time sorting reads. There's too many slots where I'm like, yeah their content isn't great but I think they could be villagers because they don't seem to care how they're read? Which is pretty annoying.

For example, I want to townread Elements because they clearly don't give a shit and had a fair amount of votes on them for most of Day 1. And they've had a couple of detailed takes that I agreed with, or that I felt were aimed to clear things up rather than cast doubt or confusion.

I have mixed feelings like that on them, HPE, Solway, and Eira. I'm completely ignoring NM and Enchant, don't really know what to do about them now or ever, unless they decide to start playing seriously Day 2 or 3.

[Grib]

ebwop: pretty *hard time

[Grib]

VOTE: Solway Firth

I triple checked to make sure this wasn't E-1. I did skim the recent pages this morning and saw someone asked me why I put BBT at E-1. That was just a derp on my part. I counted five votes, placed my vote, and then had the number five in my head so I thought that was the fifth vote when it was most definitely the sixth.

[Grib]

I have an appointment coming up in a sec, so I'm gonna dip for a handful of hours and then my V/LA will be over.

[Grib]

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

Well, people are complaining about consolidating and not having a last minute rando wagon. Let’s be real, the only real momentum the BBT wagon had was due to your case, and I decided that wasn’t enough for me. I paid more attention to the people saying that BBT often gets flack for playstyle.

Anyway, Solway has momentum, that slot isn’t villagery enough imo, there were some takes I agreed with but I also massively feel like he’s making easy posts. Which is ??? when he did say that this game his thoughts are much more fleshed out than he usually plays.

[Grib]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think I reevaluated BBT twice? I voted him fairly early, then Shea did his reaction test, I stayed to see what would happen, I moved to HPE at some point, and then switched back to BBT because Shea shaded me for vanity voting.

Shea shades a lot tbh.

[Grib]

Could you explain why you're voting Aisa over BBT or Solway? 754 is really your only fleshed out read of her (562 also exists but that reads more like a playstyle criticism), which seems like something you should have been exploring earlier in the phase. What kind of potential agenda are you sensing that differentiates Aisa from HPE, if you're going to compare them that way?

Also gonna throw in the post where you linked her and BBT, for completion's sake, as it's the only other post you give some sort of read on her.

Spoiler: the Asia posts for reference

btw if BBT flips scum Aisa's posts feel EXTREMELY bussy to me.

I am worried that aisa is just like... Idk something making the posts seem worse than they are or something because i really have been pinged by almost everything they've done but it's like idk would scum really play in the way that Aisa is playing? I feel that way wrt hpe too. I don't think there's a lot of people who just post stuff this easily attacked as scum.

I'm kind of willing to wagon aisa and not willing to wagon hpe at all because with aisa there seems to be at least some idea of an agenda behind the posts but i don't really see that for hpe at all.

BBT I'm willing to consider, though I'd probably want to do a reread and maybe find a case that is not your existing case. But I suppose doing all that is my problem, not yours.

I find this to be a pretty weird way of approaching the game. In one post you're like we need to wagon someone, which is generally true, then when I say ok, lets wagon here, you're like well I am willing to consider that but that's not generally how day 1 wagons work, they start with the smallest thing and then that leads to pressure that then in turn leads to action.

So it's like...I don't really understand your need for an airtight case to wagon someone and I'm having an even harder time squaring that with your stated desire to "find a consensus wagon" because like, homie, how do you think mafia works on day 1? We dont just all sing kumbaya and then hold hands and decide all together on one true scum candidate.

[Grib]

seen nothing to make me pause to think i should reconsider it

[Grib]

The number of times I keep typing Asia and backspacing to fix it smh

[Grib]

So, just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, you can't really articulate the difference between your HPE and Aisa reads beyond "some kind of agenda vibe."

[Grib]

Right, OK. But 'How' did I look bad and why is it bad = scum and not bad = town? Like, what specifically makes me scum?

Tone, reaction, vibes, etcetera. This one simply thinks you're acting like scum in it's eyes based on the what it's seen from your bouts with TSQ. If you wanna argue against that, go ahead,

but it probably ain't really gonna change this one's opinion on you and the situation

.

Independent of the read on BBT, the mindset of this post is pretty bad. I think the underlined is +scum motivated rather than +town.

[Grib]

I'll jump onto aisa though because thats a thing we agree on.

VOTE: Aisa

You should probably consider claiming because if we put you to L-1 enchant will just hammer, so this is L-2 but functionally L-1.

You've failed to consider that both Enchant and Not Mafia (who is another player who likes to hammer things, for those out of the loop) are already on my wagon I'll claim if and when I get to E-1.

I don't want to go down gently. Is there anything you'd like me to comment on?

P-edit: I fully support your Firebringer enemies-to-lovers arc though

The number of times I keep typing Asia and backspacing to fix it smh

I'd pick a different username if I could do it all over again. I'm also cool with being called Asia for the record.

But you're European!

[Grib]

You've failed to consider that both Enchant and Not Mafia (who is another player who likes to hammer things, for those out of the loop) are already on my wagon I'll claim if and when I get to E-1.

That's because he's more interested in sussing out your role rather than your alignment.

[Grib]

he's on my list for tomorrow. I get the feeling he might be lying low.

This is also something I've been a bit worried about, but I've not quite gotten to the point of wanting to kill him again.

[Grib]

So, just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, you can't really articulate the difference between your HPE and Aisa reads beyond "some kind of agenda vibe."

Can't is not the same thing as won't.

Okay, so which is it? You're telling me you will not explain it, or...?

[Grib]

Think Solway is clearly a good elim here. As we approach deadline his last five posts have all been nothingburgers about why he's taking BBT's Bella read at face-value. No idea where he stands on the rest of the game aside from his one readslist. No idea of his opinions on anything that's happened in the last handful of pages. All of the people he's scumleaning (or was scumleaning, if his reads are the same since he posted them) are on his wagon, so I would expect him to rethink what a realistic scumteam would look like here. But he's probably just going to vote Aisa because scumlean + self-preservation.

[Grib]

VOTE: solway

Solway is low posting scum writing longer catchup posts to try and get Townread.

Low

certainty.

What posts would you describe as "long catchup posts"

And what about catching up is more likely to come from scum than town?

It makes the posts easier to write, it makes it easier to avoid faking interactions and it makes it easier to monitor the thread carefully and double check everything your saying. I get the sense that Solway is monitoring the thread very carefully and is being cautious in what he says and I think that combined with lurky + unusual activity in the thread in response to what's happening is more likely to come from scum.

Still rereading the thread since I kind of stopped on page 22, saw this and think it's still super relevant.

[Grib]

I feel like I should include Solway's response to that post, for extra context.

Spoiler: Solway response

VOTE: solway

Solway is low posting scum writing longer catchup posts to try and get Townread.

Low

certainty.

What posts would you describe as "long catchup posts"

And what about catching up is more likely to come from scum than town?

It makes the posts easier to write, it makes it easier to avoid faking interactions and it makes it easier to monitor the thread carefully and double check everything your saying. I get the sense that Solway is monitoring the thread very carefully and is being cautious in what he says and I think that combined with lurky + unusual activity in the thread in response to what's happening is more likely to come from scum.

I have not lurked. My activity patterns are based on my schedule and how much I have to do during the day. I have lots of time now to catch up, and that is what I am doing. Tomorrow I won’t be able to post in the evenings, but I will be able to post for in the mid-afternoon but only in the mid-afternoon. That’s just a consequence of my schedule.

I have never been as verbose as I have this game. In fact, I always try to condense my posts into the highest possible density. I’m using this game to see what happens if I flesh out my ideas in the thread as much as I possibly can.

Here in the present, I think it's pretty clear that even though Solway isn't necessarily stuck in "long catchup posting" mode, he still isn't really engaging with the actual flow of events in the thread. And if this is the most he's able to flesh out his ideas, I don't think I'd be able to read him at all if he posted the way he normally does.

[Grib]

I also disagree, given that by definition, scum don't actually have reads and would therefore have to work harder to explain them.

[Grib]

My current team theory is TSQ/HPE/Solway. I would like to flip Solway to confirm or deny this world.

[Grib]

Or HPE, really. Solway just has the most momentum right now though, and I think his behavior as the phase winds to a close isn't indicative of a villager.

TSQ is tricky, and one I'm going to save for last because there's a chance that I'm just scumreading his playstyle. He's not someone I'd feel good about misreading and killing off.

[Grib]

I don't think not being compelled by my reasons is at all the same thing as my stances not being as justified as you (or anyone) would like them to be. You can think someone explained themselves well or has good reasons for thinking a certain way, and still disagree with the premise of what they're saying. I just think you're conflating the two.

I'm happy to elaborate on anything I've said that's lacking.

[Grib]

Can you demonstrate what you mean?

[Grib]

But I did give reasons for why the things that jumped out at me felt more scum-indicative than not. You just disagreed with them.

I tend to stick with asking "would town do this, yes or no?" rather than asking if scum would do it, because I find that scum players are, in general, more likely play in ways that defy expectations. But I also spent most of my mafia games in two communities and played with the same overlapping group over and over again, so there was a higher tendency for zany scumplays.

[Grib]

So basically what you're saying is that I am scum because I'm only pushing out surface-level reads? Is there anything else, or another layer to that so I don't oversimplify?

[Grib]

That's kind of a contradiction, no?

Even if you think the way I approach the game lacks critical thinking, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm trying to understand other players and leave little room for misunderstandings, or misconstruing their posts. You said yourself that I "demand" justification from other people, and that is precisely why. And I feel like you're not making that connection on purpose, which is one reason I'm entertaining a world where you're scum.

Do you feel the same way about my read on Solway?

[Grib]

But I did give reasons for why the things that jumped out at me felt more scum-indicative than not. You just disagreed with them.

I tend to stick with asking "would town do this, yes or no?" rather than asking if scum would do it, because I find that scum players are, in general, more likely play in ways that defy expectations. But I also spent most of my mafia games in two communities and played with the same overlapping group over and over again, so there was a higher tendency for zany scumplays.

See, here's the thing: I do not think you're actually doing a lot of "would town do this yes or no."

Again, perfect example is your picking at the me and frogster thing. You didn't stop to think at all whether it would make any sense at all for me and frogster to purposefully do that as scum but it was a WEIRD THING you could point out to look like you were trying to find our alignment.

In my defense, it was silly to automatically think you and Frog were scum together for that reason. I was juggling a lot of scenarios in my head and that's the one I puked up.

Really, it sparked the possibility that you were either idly skimming the thread at the time and lied about it, or you were active in scumchat and someone else mentioned that Frog was baiting you.

[Grib]

Your scum team of me HPE and solway is another example of just...complete lack of critical thinking. You think my play as scum would be to spend the whole day just saying my buddy is town for no reason and refusing to explain when asked? Why? In what world would scum act that way.

It's like you're stopping at baseline level of "I think HPE is scum, shea defended HPE, therefore shea must also be scum" without thinking that the world where I stick my neck on the line for a barely posting scum buddy for no reason and then steadfastly refuse to explain is essentially nil.

Sure, that's a fair interpretation, and that's also why I brought it up - so it can be dissected and analyzed. What I lack for in critical thinking skills, I try to bring to the table so other people can discuss it and maybe I can walk away with a different viewpoint.

In no universe do I want to have a thought and then just push it mindlessly. I've done it a fair amount when I started playing and learned my lesson that it was a bad way to go. Personally, I don't think I have the thinking capacity to play mafia effectively, but I enjoy it anyways.

[Grib]

I mean, there were other posts too.

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

Well, people are complaining about consolidating and not having a last minute rando wagon. Let’s be real, the only real momentum the BBT wagon had was due to your case, and I decided that wasn’t enough for me. I paid more attention to the people saying that BBT often gets flack for playstyle.

Anyway, Solway has momentum, that slot isn’t villagery enough imo, there were some takes I agreed with but I also massively feel like he’s making easy posts. Which is ??? when he did say that this game his thoughts are much more fleshed out than he usually plays.

I feel like I should include Solway's response to that post, for extra context.

Spoiler: Solway response

VOTE: solway

Solway is low posting scum writing longer catchup posts to try and get Townread.

Low

certainty.

What posts would you describe as "long catchup posts"

And what about catching up is more likely to come from scum than town?

It makes the posts easier to write, it makes it easier to avoid faking interactions and it makes it easier to monitor the thread carefully and double check everything your saying. I get the sense that Solway is monitoring the thread very carefully and is being cautious in what he says and I think that combined with lurky + unusual activity in the thread in response to what's happening is more likely to come from scum.

I have not lurked. My activity patterns are based on my schedule and how much I have to do during the day. I have lots of time now to catch up, and that is what I am doing. Tomorrow I won’t be able to post in the evenings, but I will be able to post for in the mid-afternoon but only in the mid-afternoon. That’s just a consequence of my schedule.

I have never been as verbose as I have this game. In fact, I always try to condense my posts into the highest possible density. I’m using this game to see what happens if I flesh out my ideas in the thread as much as I possibly can.

Here in the present, I think it's pretty clear that even though Solway isn't necessarily stuck in "long catchup posting" mode, he still isn't really engaging with the actual flow of events in the thread. And if this is the most he's able to flesh out his ideas, I don't think I'd be able to read him at all if he posted the way he normally does.

Or HPE, really. Solway just has the most momentum right now though, and I think his behavior as the phase winds to a close isn't indicative of a villager.

TSQ is tricky, and one I'm going to save for last because there's a chance that I'm just scumreading his playstyle. He's not someone I'd feel good about misreading and killing off.

[Grib]

I think grib knows the solve is a bit lame? Like I don't massively town read any of those three but that team just screams 'convenient'. I don't think it's sunny for him to suggest it though.

Like, I kinda think there's a scum in the lurker pile, a scum in the big ego posters and a scum in my middle pile. But again, life is never that easy.

@tsq, do you mean the push for solway is a 'lim all lurkers' push generally or just for grib?

There's really nothing convenient about scumreading TSQ. I almost didn't want to post it until Day 2, when we had two flips to work with.

[Grib]

Really, it sparked the possibility that you were either idly skimming the thread at the time and lied about it, or you were active in scumchat and someone else mentioned that Frog was baiting you.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. There's a next step that someone trying to discern my alignment would get to, which is: Is there any reason they would do this if they were scum? Why would shea lie about reading the thread as scum? Why would shea feel the need to respond to his scum buddy in that way?

It's surface level.

Throughout that whole interaction I never felt like you were actually trying to figure out if I was scum or not, you had just thought of one plausible scenario where you could say maybe I would be scum so you decided to throw it out into the thread.

Okay, but that in itself doesn't sound like a reason to scumread me. Just that I jump the gun on reads. Like what is the scum motivation for throwing that read out into the thread? Because I like sparring with you? I promise, I don't.

[Grib]

In any case, I don't think I'm going to be able to convince you I'm a villager and vice versa. People have complained about how much we post, so I'm going to drop it here. And I do hear you on the HPE thing, so I can drop that too for the time being.

[Grib]

Sorry, "I hear you and I'll drop it" doesn't work on things that happened seventy pages ago? What are you trying to say with that post?

[Grib]

seventy posts, not pages

[Grib]

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by that scumteam being convenient.

[Grib]

Ah.

The difference is I've been making an active attempt, whereas I personally don't think HPE has. Also nobody has complained about the number of HPE's posts.

And what I meant was, you might not be able to convince me, but your future actions might, or your past actions might after some flips or role reveals. Or someone else's read of you will resonate with me. But you arguing for your own alignment probably isn't going to work. Same thing with me trying to show you that I'm town.

[Grib]

How much time we got
I am phone posting

Like 20-ish hours.

[Grib]

And maybe I'm misrepping what HPE said. I took it as saying that the slot would not change its mind on BBT no matter what BBT said, but maybe the nuance was something completely different and I just didn't read it that way.

I just think that openly stating you aren't going to change your mind on something benefits scum more than town. Town benefits from changing its mind, otherwise we're all confbiasing and tunneling.

[Grib]

Personally, I think TSQ's read on me is scum-motivated in that he wants me to be a viable elim option and is working backwards from that premise, rather than taking my whole body of work and concluding that I'm on the scumteam. The angle he's pushing is how I've always played, and honestly is probably a fantastic articulation of why I used to get miselimmed a lot when I first started playing.

[Grib]

Grib I gotta ask tho
U say Shea is a scumread but ur tone and way u interact doesn’t read like u actually scumread
R u low confidence in it or intentionally treating him like this

Low confidence, want to keep an open mind because I hate being wrong + tunneling.

I don't see the point in like, treating scumreads as confirmed scum and not engaging with them in good faith, or whatever it is you think I should be doing. I think that just opens up a path to pages of argumentative wallposts.

[Grib]

Sure. That's just a difference in playstyle.

I suspect that he's scum, but on the chance that I'm wrong, I think these interactions are still valuable. He's scumreading me for the way I play, and I'm trying to understand if he really feels that way or if it's just an angle of attack for him. If he's a villager and this is all an honest to god scumread, then that's problematic because I'm going to keep playing this way. Don't really know how to navigate that world other than maybe playing around each other until flips/roles shed more light on the both of us.

[Grib]

Maybe everyone would be happier if I started playing more like Elements.

[Grib]

Yeah, well. such is life.

[Grib]

I’m a little confused by 952 and therefore it is more likely to be a scum post.

Happy birthday to Grib, it seems.

It seems indeed. Thank you.

[Grib]

Oh I get a cake slice too. Cute.

[Grib]

Any important thoughts you’re able to leave us with, any reads or suspicions you haven’t voiced?

[Grib]

Think Solway is clearly a good elim here. As we approach deadline his last five posts have all been nothingburgers about why he's taking BBT's Bella read at face-value. No idea where he stands on the rest of the game aside from his one readslist. No idea of his opinions on anything that's happened in the last handful of pages. All of the people he's scumleaning (or was scumleaning, if his reads are the same since he posted them) are on his wagon, so I would expect him to rethink what a realistic scumteam would look like here. But he's probably just going to vote Aisa because scumlean + self-preservation.

I am being pushed because I am taking BBT’s read of Bella at face value. Therefore, I am explaining exactly why I did that. As for not commenting much on recent events, for most of yesterday I wasn’t able to post at all. There’s also that the push on me is occupying a lot of my in-game mental energy. As for rethinking what a realistic scum team looks like, I fully expect that most of my scum leans will be incorrect. I don’t like thinking about the big picture scumteam before a scum flip.

As for the whole self-preservation thing, if when I log on tomorrow morning and I’m at E-1 I will claim. If I am a viable wagon but not in immediate danger of being limmed I’ll vote Aisa.

Actually, did you even notice Aisa’s post about you?

[Grib]

Welp, was vaguely hoping the scum read on TSQ would dissuade a shot there. That sucks.

[Grib]

Think maaaybe Bella’s vote on HPE looks good for her? I imagine the scumteam noticed the Masons pretty quickly and I don’t really see Bella as the type of scum to vote for one at deadline.

Kind of paranoid that BBT has been buddying her.

[Grib]

And I agree with TSQ that Eiralox’s appeal on Aisa’s behalf felt very town.

[Grib]

Yeah, he was being pretty obvious about it. But I got too excited about them potentially being scum together, and by the time I noticed they were probably Masons it was waaay too late.

[Grib]

To be clear, I thought they were scum up until he made it explicitly clear he didn’t want to talk about HPE, so.

Oops?

Both of them dying is just the cherry on top. I don’t want to believe a town vigilante did that, unless they just flat-out randomized their shot.

[Grib]

I briefly thought mafia had an extra shot, but I guess the Macho modifier makes that less likely. Yuck.

[Grib]

Welp, was vaguely hoping the scum read on TSQ would dissuade a shot there. That sucks.

are u being serious here grib. This seems like retroactive explanation

Nah. I had an epiphany. I thought about doubling down hard on both scumreads, but I didn't want TSQ to yell at me, so :V

I'm not thinking too much about the implications of the shot, since they were fairly easy rolereads for the mafia.

[Grib]

However, I do think we might've flubbed it hard by not killing BBT.

VOTE: BBT

[Grib]

Actually, I'll try an experiment.

BBT, would you be able to link your most recent towngame where you gave a read that was mostly, if not entirely, based on meta? Bonus points if someone scumread you for it. Extra bonus points if that someone was scum.

[Grib]

V/LA again til Tuesday, doing actual birthday stuff for the weekend.

[Grib]

This post is @BBT but I don't feel like quoting his large post.

I had a silly thought over Night 1 that if mafia shot HPE, TSQ would tunnel me for this phase and either succeed in getting me eliminated or ruin any towncred I had. Given that no one besides him has really shown any interest in scumreading me, I figured it was the mafia's best bet to get me back in the elim pool. I would say the major difference between my scumread and yours is that you already looked bad and were a viable wagon because of your argument with him, while I looked questionable at best near the end of Day 1.

Regarding the buddying and my request of your past town games, I thought that maybe you just wanted to have a villager pocketed and picked Bella by having an empty (meta) townread on her. When I asked you about your past meta reads, I didn't mean on Bella specifically, I was referring to any instance where you were a villager and relied on meta to read someone else. Because if this isn't something you normally do as a villager, then it just looks like a fake townread.

[Grib]

I just quickly went through BBT's mentions of Bella and I'm shrug. Meta townread that was "good enough" for Day 1, then he says he has no confidence in actually reading her, and now it's Day 2 and it feels like he's veeery lightly shading her while also keeping her in his stronger townleans. Since his Day 1 read wasn't strong, I imagine a reevaluation of that read (or at least sanity checking it) would be a pretty natural course of development, but he's kind of just holding onto the initial empty read. I think the most substance it has is when he mentioned that Bella is more hesitant/fence-sitty as scum, and he liked that she had early reads.

I just suspect that this read in particular isn't real.

fake edit: alright, thanks. I'm probably going to just look at your other reads when I get the chance and see if I can make any teams that make sense, because I don't really want to waste the phase just sitting on this vote.

[Grib]

[
Yeah im tired discussing my feel on you with toffee, what I said d1 still stands so where at first I humored them, now im just going to flat out ignore them if they keep tunneling into me like this.

Theyve been like hyper focused on it d1 and now going all out with the manure barrage that im faking it. In general if someone wants to talk in circles with me I wont oblige them, if bbt isnt satisfied that im sticking with my gutread, too bad. I just havent felt you approaching things with any ulterior motive at all, so idk if this is scum toffee or town toffee pushing me and pushing me on this but imo i've already said my say.

I feel pretty close to locktowning you, so the only reason I see for me to be talking bout my read is if it changes and I really don't feel like thats gonna happen.

I think you can say I'm tunneling you atm, sure. But to say I was 'hyper-focused' on it D1 is a huge stretch. I was, and still am, discussing and engaging multiple things with multiple players so you spewing 'omg stop tunneling me' is absolutely not a thing.

You said yourself you would answer it. Why the change of heart?

If people can't see the repositioning from Eira here then I don't know what else I can say.

I know this is probably more of a personality thing, but the underlined just comes off as false bravado. You had more or less the same rhetoric when it came to TSQ's "insincere" push on you, so taking the same tone with Eira doesn't inspire any confidence in the push.

[Grib]

I’m not calling it scum, I’m calling it doubtful, and unlikely to garner support. That’s why I said it may be personality.

I haven’t looked at Eira this phase yet.

[Grib]

I apologize for my low engagement this phase, the timing was just overall inconvenient. I'll be rereading Day 2 and updating reads as best I can in the morning, which will leave me with more than 24 hours before deadline.

Just want the floaty purple orb to have had a good birthday celebration, come back from V/LA, and figure out who is scum so I can sheep them tbh.

Since when am I sheep-worthy? By all accounts my Day 1 was terrible in terms of reads. It's hard to be more wrong than "hey what if the scumteam is this VT and two Masons"

[Grib]

At this point, I wouldn't feel bad about a Frog vote, but I also wouldn't feel any confidence in it.

Would be pretty funny if I had been right in my initial scumread.

Anyway, I just got done with work so I'm going to be poking around the thread for a few hours before I completely switch my brain off.

[Grib]

Think I'm just gonna lock in Aisa as town for the rest of the game? Unless she gets checked or blocked or something.

Maybe my reasons are bad but I find the tone of her posts to be very consistent, and the flow of her humor and scumhunting comes off as very genuine to me. She's asking questions and cracking jokes but none of it is fluff or active lurking. The way she follows up on stuff or forgets to do so also looks town. I think the way she's been handled by other slots in the game would be hella weird if she's mafia? Almost like the flow of the game

wants

her to be scumread, but she's able to keep her head above that current? That's the best way I can put it. And the way she answers questions or gives thoughts, she'll sometimes tack on an additional thing to the post that signals to me that she was thinking about the game beyond what's required of her to look town.

All to say that if she's scum this is a fantastic performance, but I think it's just town.

[Grib]

I guess if anyone thinks that Aisa is still in her scumgame, I'll consider it, but otherwise yeah. I really want to have at two or three confident townreads moving forward and I'd like for this to be one of them.

[Grib]

in her scum *range, not game

[Grib]

Less than a quarter through Eira's post and I think he's town.

trololol

I dunno, he's kind of just posting what's on his mind and his "defensive" posts are fine. Like.

i mean i like enchant, from the little we've interacted so : P I want an answer for why Enchant is on Asia, but i'm ok if folk aren't as active day ones..... the one doesn't cancel the other, and me liking enchant doesn't mean i'm not holding open the possibility that they're scum.... they're pretty much null to me, but i want them to peek in and change my mind >.>

I ask simply because my understanding of enchant's meta is that when they're not doing anything they're way more likely to be scum.

So it seemed a curious person to say that about in particular.

Not sure this is super important or anything but if you're town something to be aware of.

i appreciate the sentiment i guess but i don't meta. all i've seen from enchant this game is 'im going to lurk, deal with it.' So on the whole null, but i'm not too hot on the Asia vote... so don't think i'm one to too easily trust, i mean just cos i like rocks doesn't mean i don't factor in that one can fall on my head, but u going 'don't trust enchant they tend to be lurkscum' is honestly not going to change my mind one way or another while we still got six days left.

I've said my bit to enchant and they can respond in their own time, if they do or don't, well, then i'll judge ; ) I like to handle what's before me rathe than dealing with past data, cos the universe isn't stable.

This seems pretty town, for example. Could Eira be buddies with Enchant? I guess it's not impossible, but meh. It would be a weirdly casual defense of a scumbuddy, when this would otherwise be the -perfect- time to distance instead of completely brushing it off.

[Grib]

The refusing to elaborate on the Aisa townread for so long is weird but not a dealbreaker. His questions about the scumreads on HPE are good.

Ok yeah this is a villager I'm moving on to Bella.

Also if anyone wants to break up my chainposting that'd be fun.

[Grib]

Ok sleep well, i also have to go.

The main contention i have at this point is that Bella's 'do i hammer?' post was actually town-indicative to me, i don't see why scum would draw that attention to themselves then not go through with the hammer. Bella 'asks do i hammer' fire says 'are u new' and they don't. Why would scum express interest in hammering on wagon they know is town but not to do it? just to draw sus? I get you're in your early stages and wanting to get a feel for bella and so on, but i'll push this point cos we seem to be having wildly different interpretations of it.

Or I could cheat and just sheep this read instead of reading her posts myself. :V

[Grib]

I'm just gonna take a break until more people are active. Putting my read of Bella off til then.

[Grib]

I don't know why that quoted.

VOTE: elements

I honestly thought he was called elemis, isn't that weird.

"Elements and I totally aren't scum together, I don't even know her name!"

this is mostly /s

[Grib]

Meh. I think Bella's Day 1 was lightly towny. She's engaged, mildly confrontational, taking stances but being open about flip-floppy reads. I don't really know what her scum style is these days. She's not leading the game but she also isn't actively lurking or anything, or trying to make herself unnoticeable, which is about what I'd expect her to do if she's scum?

Not as confident a townread as Aisa or Eira but I don't think I'd elim her this phase.

[Grib]

0-1 scum in [NM, Enchant]
1-3 scum in [Firebringer, Elements, Frog, BBT]

This is purely an assumption on my part, that NM and Enchant wouldn't play like this if they were on a scumteam together. Honestly, I want to clear both of them because if I had one or both of them on my scumteam, I'd be uh, unhappy. Shrug.

[Grib]

Fire and Elements aren't really scumreads yet, but at this point in the game they make me uneasy. Especially since with how narrow the suspect pool is (fmpov), at least one of them is likely mafia unless a lurker slot ends up flipping red.

[Grib]

[...]

I quite like this post. Have a more general response: I know that's half the player list, I was also fairly wrong. Of your scum reads, eir is town, I think one of frog or grib is scum but not both, Ans I scum read elements day one and feel like I should just go back to that.

I am less convinced on nm and enchant and again, think it's unlikely that both are scum but one could be.

[...]

This is kind of a mindmeld as well, at least with my recent readslist.

[Grib]

I think that's not a real claim...

This is purely an assumption on my part, that NM and Enchant wouldn't play like this if they were on a scumteam together.

Why not? I don't think they're doing awful if they're on a team together!

This said, all roads to me keep leading back to the choice of "Frog or BBT?"

I mean, teams like that tend to get chain-limmed after a couple of phases when the other villagers find each other and don't tinfoil too much. I could see them doing it for meme-y reasons but that's about it.

If only we had a town vigilante :V :V :V

[Grib]

BBT has at least made an effort to stay engaged, while Frog has not.

[Grib]

No read Bella!
That's a slot I want you to look at!

You were going to ISO everyone and give thoughts. I take it that isn't happening this phase?

[Grib]

Sure.

Who are BBT's most likely partners and why?

Who are your top three would-not-elims at this moment?

[Grib]

Also, ideally, I wouldn't have to summon you to do the one thing town is supposed to be doing. Observing that you aren't really engaged is hardly talking about you.

[Grib]

Maybe my reasons are bad but I find the tone of her posts to be very consistent, and the flow of her humor and scumhunting comes off as very genuine to me.

ur the kind of person i fool when im scum

Guess I’ll be panic-voting you in final three then.

[Grib]

At least we agree on Frog. And that if Aisa is scum, she’s playing really well.

[Grib]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Frog

[Grib]

Fire and Elements are Masons.

[Grib]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BBT

[Grib]

I’m here too, just driving for the next fifteen minutes.

[Grib]

I just wasn’t sure of the vote count. I am fine killing both of them.

[Grib]

I kind of doubt he will tbh.

[Grib]

Ribbit.

[Grib]

Huh, that’s actually a great shot. Now I don’t have to tinfoil him.

[Grib]

I mean, I laid out kind of meh-reasons. Plus I’m not sure BBT would have an empty townread on a buddy, especially if he’s aware that he’s been getting slimmed a lot recently and Bella doesn’t really have a strong thread presence by herself.

When I reread BBT’s posts, I felt surer that Bella wasn’t a buddy, but maybe you can tell me how you’re seeing it?

edit: I didn’t refresh and there’s a lot of new posts but I’m posting this anyway because mobile, this is in response to Elements asking for reasons on town!Bella.

[Grib]

Fire and Elements aren't really scumreads yet, but at this point in the game they make me uneasy. Especially since with how narrow the suspect pool is (fmpov), at least one of them is likely mafia unless a lurker slot ends up flipping red.

Do you still hold this view?

Over the Night phase I was so confident in proposing a you/Fire team /o\

You still might be scum and killed FB to strengthen the validity of his read on you, but I also know I need to make sure my original townreads hold. Bella is the weakest.

[Grib]

And of course NM or Enchant could be scum, but at that point it’s a pure guessing game.

I don’t really have time for mafia today, and the rug has been pulled from under me a bit, so I’ll start looking at stuff tomorrow.

[Grib]

Yeah sorry Elements, but I absolutely do not buy that the team is BBT/Aisa/Bella, and that Aisa gave Bella questions to answer before deadline and then Bella picks it up the next Day phase the way she did. That would be bizarre-o casual theater for a team that is kind of doomed.

Not to mention that BBT would be setting them both up to fail. Aisa has been scumread a lot and Bella is in a vulnerable position if she’s scum, and that team hasn’t really done anything to change that momentum.

[Grib]

I felt pretty strongly that a BBT/Fire/Elements team fit. That’s obviously bunk but I still kind of think Elements has partner equity with BBT. If anyone could take a look at their posts about each other and let me know what they see.

I’m going to take another look tomorrow after I check votes.

[Grib]

For the record, BBT/Elements/Frog is my current team guess. I did look at Frog’s posts and talked myself out of scumreading him for reasons I don’t really remember, but I’ll add that to my to-do list.

[Grib]

The main reasons I suspect Elements without quoting or citing anything is that her behavior for most of the game completely changed whenever BBT was about to be elimmed - it’s like she perked up, but never showed that same energy for doing anything else. And that she looked like she was trying to bus BBT for free while keeping suspicion on Aisa (when she said she wanted to flip Aisa the most but would sheep TSQ whenever he voted BBT - it looked like buddying and free distancing).

[Grib]

We probably have a protective role of some sort, I don’t think we should massclaim this phase since they’re still hidden. It’s only worth it if anyone is worried about scum counterclaiming at endgame.

[Grib]

Frog has just flat-out not had the same energy he brought Day 1. That’s really my only off-the-cuff criticism.

[Grib]

Okay.

VOTE: Elements

[Grib]

If Frog is town, why didn't he get elimmed Day 2?

[Grib]

Didn't you say you like Grib and Bella 3 posts ago

She likes us for BBT's teammates.

[Grib]

My vote was pretty pivotal in getting BBT eliminated. If I had stayed on Frog, Enchant would've hammered. If I'm mafia and Frog is town, why did I do that?

[Grib]

If Bella is town, then BBT is one member of the mafia who wasn't going to touch her. He could've warned his buddies not to push that too hard.

[Grib]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Frog

This was a weird interaction with you and I don't know how to feel about it tbh.

[Grib]

I probably owe it to Firebringer to leave you alone for now anyways.

Problem is, aside from Frog I don't have a better candidate for the last mafia. NM? I really want to believe I'm correctly townrading Bella/Eira/Aisa.

[Grib]

It's not one interaction. Hang on I'll link to what I said to BBT.

[Grib]

This post is @BBT but I don't feel like quoting his large post.

[...]

Regarding the buddying and my request of your past town games, I thought that maybe you just wanted to have a villager pocketed and picked Bella by having an empty (meta) townread on her. When I asked you about your past meta reads, I didn't mean on Bella specifically, I was referring to any instance where you were a villager and relied on meta to read someone else. Because if this isn't something you normally do as a villager, then it just looks like a fake townread.

I just quickly went through BBT's mentions of Bella and I'm shrug. Meta townread that was "good enough" for Day 1, then he says he has no confidence in actually reading her, and now it's Day 2 and it feels like he's veeery lightly shading her while also keeping her in his stronger townleans. Since his Day 1 read wasn't strong, I imagine a reevaluation of that read (or at least sanity checking it) would be a pretty natural course of development, but he's kind of just holding onto the initial empty read. I think the most substance it has is when he mentioned that Bella is more hesitant/fence-sitty as scum, and he liked that she had early reads.

I just suspect that this read in particular isn't real.

[...]

[Grib]

If Bella is a partner, then BBT charged himself with protecting her. With the way he played, I don't think she's his partner. And the Firebringer kill would be hella weird after Bella openly shaded him at deadline for townreading you.

[Grib]

If Bella is a partner, then BBT charged himself with protecting her. With the way he played, I don't think she's his partner. And the Firebringer kill would be hella weird after Bella openly shaded him at deadline for townreading you.

Do you think the Firebringer kill indicates me as scum more than Bella as scum?

Yes.

But I’m by no means locked onto that. Just need a healthy amount of discussion and different perspectives.

[Grib]

No, I haven’t played with BBT in years. But even without his signature, I remembered that he hated meta reads.

So when he said his Bella read was based on meta, that set off alarm bells. I’m leaning towards that fake read being used to pocket Bella, rather than shield her from pressure.