Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[innocentvillager]

I am the new TacolmMucker

[innocentvillager]

Thanks Datisi

[innocentvillager]

How did you guys miss the IC post it was right there

[innocentvillager]

10 posts in 8 hours? What happened to the hyper posting mafiascum I love and knowingly left because I don’t completely hate myself

[innocentvillager]

How did you guys miss the IC post it was right there

I didn't see it
And hello! Been a while

Hello how’s your foot? Mines still fucked

[innocentvillager]

My Scoliosis townread is kinda eroding ngl. The last 2 posts just seem to be looking to be made to start an early push (it's 2 pages in) on pretty flimsy reasoning.

Scoliosis is obviously town and i'm starting to scumread you

Obviously on page 3 is a strong conviction why so obvious?

[innocentvillager]

The guy has 3 posts

[innocentvillager]

@val why is the vote a scumclaim ?

Not the vote - the post. It is an attempt at a fake dumb tell. Are you trying to get a read on the author of post 6 from the RVS posting here?

I say it's fake rather than genuine, as KT seems to suggest, because of KTs vote/unvote. Scoliosis trying to draw 3 reads (and two scum ones at that) from the RVS shit posting that went on before post 20 screams 'try harding', but if you a seriously try harding, do you serious think KT moving their vote around is something less AI than two "Hi <vote>" posts, and not bother looking into that?

We know KT was shit posting because Toto is IC, but Scoliosis is trying to dumb tell they didn't notice and need to give a read on post 6 - its internally inconsistent.

I actually didnt notice the IC post until now.

I agree that all of scoliosis' conclusions are based on very little, but I think the fact that they *tried* to create content at this stage is very townie - it moves the game out of RVS, and I find that very +town

I don't think the conclusions are meant to be very *firm* or like taken as fact, but rather trying to move the game along by throwing out *some* sort of statement and seeing what happens

That being said, i like this post from you
VOTE: herta

Trying to create content in RVS counts as obviously town? Man I gotta try that next time

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Herat sure

[innocentvillager]

Good to hear you're healed!

The thing that stuck out to me (as you can see by my posts) is the stated strength of your read relative to what I can see as the reasoning behind it. It's hard for me to be "obviously town" on someone on page 3 after 3 posts so when a reputable player makes a read like that it is certainly feels worth investigating both for sorting you and them.

Personally, I have felt that "trying to get game going in RVS" =/= obviously town - it feels too easy for it be a legitimate towntell but more importantly I've seen scum do it, so it's hard for me to estimate the true frequency at which it happens. Your brief addendum to that actually feels like more convincing of a reason.

[innocentvillager]

Yknow skitter I might actually be vibing with your Scoliosis take though I'm definitely not at obviously town yet.

[innocentvillager]

Can't tell if I'm just confbiased because I want to believe I've made any remote progress in my reads though. I feel like regardless of your alignment Scoliosis is +town here though.

[innocentvillager]

I'm here for the Herta sass

[innocentvillager]

Has Herta ever pissed people off like this as scum? Genuine question for any Herta meta stans out there

[innocentvillager]

Okay I'll stop being an annoying fuck and hyperposting nonsense this was fun while it lasted

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: geraintm vibing with zero other wagons

[innocentvillager]

IV I need a townread and I think you're a really underrated player

Can you do a little villager jiggle for me

Im deep in your pockets of flattery already

[innocentvillager]

Uh I sorta vibed with skitter’s Scoliosis TR I guess? maybe?

No one really sticks out to me

[innocentvillager]

I’m not gonna put a crazy amount of time into this game because it’s just unsustainable for me but I’m sure I’ll have more juicy takes for you down the line

[innocentvillager]

Could you give a contrast between Herta/Church? I think their posting style is actually similar

I ... am not even sure how to approach this fully as i don't think they're similar at all

Herta - i felt a lot of fluffiness/wishy-washyness/agreeing-to-agree in early posts like 33, 34, 35, bandwagon-y church vote, statements that they didn't seen willing (or able) to back up (like the kitty townread off of meta), and the whole 'i don't want to answer these questions' thing

Church - thought 40 was fine, don't love that they've mostly interacted with their wagon thus far and want to see what their content looks like when they come back

Pedit oh dear i hope you find it >.>
Can you explain 137 again plz? Why did you not want to answer the question because you were in a 1v1, and how does him being ic change that?

Too lazy to quote the exact part I want

Re: Church I don’t feel the interacting with people on wagon part is scummy. If I’m being attacked my instinct is to fight back and interact with the people who are interacting with me. Why is it scummy?

[innocentvillager]

Herta’s posting is too weird for me to think he’s scum

[innocentvillager]

Freedom feels kinda town for some reason

[innocentvillager]

Welcome Flanndor

[innocentvillager]

I might just sheep Dann this game for now

[innocentvillager]

I think skitter is towny and I think her opinion on herta makes sense from the position of being on the other side of the aggression

I don't feel super committed to either of these reads but those are my vibes atm

Skitter as town on page 8 is a hot take, why?

[innocentvillager]

Re: Church I don’t feel the interacting with people on wagon part is scummy. If I’m being attacked my instinct is to fight back and interact with the people who are interacting with me. Why is it scummy?

Seems kinda self-centered, i.e. only focusing on the things in the game that are abt them, and nothing else (i.e. like scumhunting)

It doesnt make them scum, but is worth calling out

I think it’s fine if you’re actually getting wagoned

The way you phrased it made it seemed like you were throwing shade in a scummy way not a “townies should act better” way

[innocentvillager]

I like ydra and dann
Still good with my herta vote but if i'm going wildly wrong somewhere someone plz enlighten me

I liked Ydrasse before I knew that slot was Ydrasse now I have no idea

I like Dann because he agrees with basically everything I’ve said so far and I don’t thjnk he cares enough about me to intentionally copy me as either alignment

[innocentvillager]

I agree with unwnd that I find it hard to believe skitter is readable at this point which is why I’m curious on why Dann believes otherwise

[innocentvillager]

I feel like the answer to Herta’a outburst really could be helped by basic meta knowledge so if anyone has that please I’m calling out now

It could be as simple as “they did it once as scum, move on it’s not towny” or “they’ve done it 5 times and they were town in all of them, they’re town”

[innocentvillager]

skitter towm

Ahhh y

These skitter townreads are making me nervous

[innocentvillager]

IV is in jungle rn and he's raring up to flank the enemy team

This is a lot of pressure

[innocentvillager]

I find it very interesting that Val is taking my earlier line of questioning and 10x ramming it up skitters ass

[innocentvillager]

skitter towm

Ahhh y

These skitter townreads are making me nervous

I was being silly after she said she was unreadable i don’t feel strongly one way or the other

I’m dumb thnank you

[innocentvillager]

tbf some people are open books and some take like a phd and three days to have a hint of alignment

This is what I thought in my mind after reading Val’s last 2 posts but it wasn’t nearly as articulate and concise as this

[innocentvillager]

Idk Val can be town for now I guess lul

[innocentvillager]

I’m scum

[innocentvillager]

I have no idea what's going on with the Church/Ydra player. I don't see any reason to townread either iso.

skitter towm

Why?

That was a joke

It makes more sense if you consider it was posted right after skitter’s post (which is easy to miss on reread )

[innocentvillager]

Jesus this game went fast

[innocentvillager]

I have no idea on Scol anymore
Pooky very engaged from get go which is interesting seems like good content at least, still no idea what my read there is

very briefly skimmed some catch-up stuff

[innocentvillager]

I still kinda think herta is town and geraint is scum

[innocentvillager]

Y dann?

[innocentvillager]

Dann do you think you are readable atp

[innocentvillager]

because I think it's +winrate for me to do that this game

But y

Or would you just prefer not to answer

[innocentvillager]

Are we 100% sure it’s Flavor Leaf?

[innocentvillager]

I’m the best player at this table clearly and dann is town

Nice joke (I’m learning!)

[innocentvillager]

Why do we have to end the day?

Toto where did Scol scumclaim?

[innocentvillager]

I sorta felt similarly to unwnd so yeah I also agree good post

And good post for calling that a good post

[innocentvillager]

I oddly feel like trusting Pooky yet continue to not feel anything about his alignment

[innocentvillager]

tbf you've already snowed me as scum once

lucky for you i dont abide by the "if x player is good at scum they should never be town read" tenet of mafia

I do

[innocentvillager]

Is ger really just a null slot? he’s totally capable of doing shit as town and here he’s don’t really contributing much/driving his own opinions, just kind of lurking existing

that random wall post kind of just felt like out of the blue randomly prompted to provide content for the same of it, probably from his teammates or self consciousness or smthng

[innocentvillager]

There was no grammar in that sentence you’ll have to excuse my runon phone posting

[innocentvillager]

Dann can you give me a rough but also non sarcastic breakdown of how you’re approaching this game and the one we just played differently

[innocentvillager]

Who’s the other lurker?

And why are you so sure Scol is scum? Feel free to quote past stuff

[innocentvillager]

Is ger really just a null slot? he’s totally capable of doing shit as town and here he’s don’t really contributing much/driving his own opinions, just kind of lurking existing

that random wall post kind of just felt like out of the blue randomly prompted to provide content for the same of it, probably from his teammates or self consciousness or smthng

yeah that's a fair scum read

I'd kill it

This doesn’t feel like something scum!Dann would say after saying what he just said before

[innocentvillager]

I've decided pookythebear is probably a confused town who can't make heads or tails of this game

This is a really weird description of someone who is aggressively tunneling you and putting out confident solves that rubs me the wrong way

[innocentvillager]

Maybe it feels weird because it feels like gaslighting

[innocentvillager]

Maybe I'm just being overly nitpicky and semantical but saying someone is "confused town who can't make heads or tails of this game" is very different from saying someone's "wrong"

I would call someone who's "confused" a player like me or our moderator Dayteezee, constantly going back and forth with a perplexed and chaotic mindset
I would never apply that to someone who's "solved" the game on replace-in

At worst your long description discredit and gaslights him in an unnecessarily flowery way (you could've just said "wrong town" which is a very common thing people say)

I'm being dramatic but I'm sort of trying to verbalize the vibe I got from your overall 180 on him I guess

[innocentvillager]

Is ger really just a null slot? he’s totally capable of doing shit as town and here he’s don’t really contributing much/driving his own opinions, just kind of lurking existing

that random wall post kind of just felt like out of the blue randomly prompted to provide content for the same of it, probably from his teammates or self consciousness or smthng

yeah that's a fair scum read

I'd kill it

I'm actually kind of confused at why this turned you so easily, I sort of realized Scoliosis was saying something pretty similar about geraint (esp wrt geraint's random 572 post)

[innocentvillager]

Scum team is geraint KittyTacky and skitter30

Good night

[innocentvillager]

If any of those are wrong Scoliosis or Pooky are scum probs

[innocentvillager]

I'm willing to take a chance on your reads IV

VOTE: Geraintm

I will empirically my day 1 read accuracy is probably not better than flipping a coin

Do what you will with that information

[innocentvillager]

Also that was a gut no scope 360 quick shot I’m sleepy and no one posted yet readslist

[innocentvillager]

geraint’s recent posting is pretty NAI imo

My impression of his meta was a little bit different but maybe I am anchoring too hard on the one game I’ve played with him that stuck out where it was painfully obvious he was town and doing the exact opposite of this game

[innocentvillager]

On one hand it may be true that geraint is more solvable on later days

But on the other hand I’m a player that is more solvable on later days and I love to say that d1 to delay my elimination and let the confused town kill someone else

[innocentvillager]

I would be lying to myself and you guys if I said I was that confident in geraint anymore but I’m kind of at my first pass of reads where I have some reason to believe a lot of people in this game have some merit going for them

[innocentvillager]

Pooky said he was the guy at the party with a drink in his hand who doesn’t talk to anyone and said that’s why he’s town

And skitter and Dann were like but that’s what he’s doing

Then Dann did a brief meta thing on Herta from one game where he acted in some aggressive way and used that to show why scum!Herta could have snapped at skitter on page 0.6

[innocentvillager]

I could be resummarizing it poorly someone else who’s actually invested should confirm

[innocentvillager]

wrt geran i’m kind of at the same place with more like sympathy i guess lol because i often do the same thing ie solve me later it’s easier but the actual posting feels meh compared to the town games i skimmed (i’m doing meta research from the luxury of bed. thrilling)

This is very helpful atp thank you

[innocentvillager]

It would confirm my half baked meta knowledge that geraint is just abnormally lackluster even if he doesn’t think he is readable day 1

[innocentvillager]

Well if it is Flavor Leaf (I assume he is at this point) does scum! flavor ever do that or does he generally keep his cool?

[innocentvillager]

I know scum!Flavor is very intentional agenda-y so if there’s no obvious level0.5 agenda behind it it’s probably Townie

[innocentvillager]

What is crungled for the boomers out there

[innocentvillager]

why would i want o vote for someone today i think is mor elikely to be town than now?

Is that your actual read on Scol? More likely town than scum?

i am of the opinion that people who are run up and/or voted out day 1 are more likely to be town than scum

What happened to just voting for the Most Popular Wagon at any given point on d1?

[innocentvillager]

can you elaborate on how your philosophy on this has changed since like Mini normal 2207

[innocentvillager]

Admittedly I am realizing that that game is the one and only time I have played with you. I know you were “trying something different”. If I am correct in understanding, your attitude in this game is somewhat of a reversion to your “old playstyle”?

[innocentvillager]

Normally I would say that geraintm being a universal null/scum read means that they are likelier to be town but I literally have zero idea what reason anyone could come up with to townread him rn so I’ll make an exception for that heuristic

[innocentvillager]

Pooky is there a reason you are more engaged than usual this game and gave an abnormal amount of content at the beginning? Do you think any of this is town!indicative behavior for you?

[innocentvillager]

Also do you still think skitter is town?

[innocentvillager]

Ok thanks makes sense

[innocentvillager]

geraint - I believe you can logically believe that town is < rand to flip scum on D1 but still attempt to play the game seriously regardless.

I know my d1 reads personally probably aren’t all that much better than rand if at all. I might even agree with you that on average scum flips < rand d1, not totally sure. I think that has little to do with not trying on D1 regardless, however

Just my 2c

[innocentvillager]

Skitter do you have meta experience of geraint acting like this as town?

[innocentvillager]

Do I have doubts that he’s scum? Yes
Am I confident he is scum? No
Is he the best place for my vote rn? Yes

I sorta explain my geraint stance in my iso too lazy rn

re Herta what opportunistic votes? i don’t feel like wishy-washy is a really a scumtell either especially since I do it a lot

[innocentvillager]

the inane comments thing also applies to geraint/basically everyone who has shitposted at any point so I don’t really see how that’s unique to herta

[innocentvillager]

wrt geran i’m kind of at the same place with more like sympathy i guess lol because i often do the same thing ie solve me later it’s easier but the actual posting feels meh compared to the town games i skimmed (i’m doing meta research from the luxury of bed. thrilling)

Feel free to Share with the class if you ever get anything out of this otherwise no worries

[innocentvillager]

Let’s give skitter time to catch up

We don’t need to rush to end day

[innocentvillager]

Hot take if pooky is scum skitter is probably scum with him

[innocentvillager]

Confidence is NAI for Flavor if it’s him

[innocentvillager]

UNVOTE: Geraintm I don’t care enough to rush this but I wouldn’t mind a claim either

Spiritually my vote is here though.

[innocentvillager]

I’m totally fine with a claim

[innocentvillager]

I also have the ability to revote/hammer if I don’t like what I hear which is empowering

[innocentvillager]

I just lost all enthusiasm for the geraint wagon

[innocentvillager]

This dumb forum game tilts me so much lol

[innocentvillager]

geraint is there zero analysis you can give at this point? who are the scummy votes on your wagon? Like you’re about to get eliminated and in theory you know you’re town, is that not information similar to what we’d otherwise know on D2?

[innocentvillager]

I am worried that you are not at least showing a little bit of urgency in your elimination

[innocentvillager]

Tiger do you like kitty just because he agrees with you on geraint?

[innocentvillager]

I am aware I look very bad if the coin flips tails and gera is actually scum, I just think what he's been doing is completely NAI because he thinks D1 is irrelevant.

I refuse to vote Gera rn, he has consistently shown to play like this as town D1 and I don't do policy lims. He always gets run up for shit takes like clockwork. Get Scol instead.

This isn’t really a policy lim imo cna you give meta examples?

[innocentvillager]

I am worried that you are not at least showing a little bit of urgency in your elimination

I kinda think he was showing urgency *for him* in some.of his posting yesterday. I think *for him* he's actually trying p hard to defend himself

A lot of his posting has this vibe of incredulity that people don't recognize that this is lightyeard away from his scumgame - this is the approach he's taking to try to not get flipped

Do I have zero reading comprehension my impression was that he is just saying his behavior is completely NaI

[innocentvillager]

Thanks I’ll read it a bit more closely later - why didn’t you do something similar to this until I prompted you to I guess? It still feels you’ve been very whatever about your E1/elimination idk

[innocentvillager]

i remain wholly unconvinced by your herta push but I am willing to switch just for you if you ask nicely because I am trying to be a nicer person. how much confidence do you actually have that he flips mafia here

I refuse to vote Gera rn, he has consistently shown to play like this as town D1 and I don't do policy lims. He always gets run up for shit takes like clockwork. Get Scol instead.

I am aware I look very bad if the coin flips tails and gera is actually scum, I just think what he's been doing is completely NAI because he thinks D1 is irrelevant.

This is gonna sound weird cuz i'm quoting these posts, but no
I like the fact that he's taking a hard stance here and showing that he *knows* how this'll look if gera is bad, yet defending him anyway
It's more abt the conviction in his stance than what the stance actually is if that makes sense

You don’t think this could mean Kitty is scum and gera is town…?

[innocentvillager]

Oh I forgot I quoted the pooky thing. I thought that quote was interesting because I don’t feel like scum Pooky says that to scum skitter so Pooky is likely town

[innocentvillager]

I’m legit so confused rn

[innocentvillager]

My new scumteam is like Dannflor KittyTacky Herta (???)

[innocentvillager]

Ydrasse can you tell me where your head is at?

[innocentvillager]

My new scumteam is like Dannflor KittyTacky Herta (???)

Wait what?
How do dannflor/kitty work with herta

Why is dannflor switching between gera/scol, he shouldnt care if he's scum

And also why does kitty care so much abt whether or not we flip gera?

Posturing for Dann because exactly because he doesn’t care who flips

Whiteknighting for Kitty/maybe he felt locked into this read for whatever reason so just wants towncred idk

At that point it seemed reasonably likely gera was going through

Not saying I have any remote confidence in any of these scum but it’s just a gut shot

[innocentvillager]

You don’t think this could mean Kitty is scum and gera is town…?

Ok if kitty is scum
Amd gera is town

Why does kitty make 892, or even pursue this stance at all if it looks like gera is close to getting flipped and he knows he'll look bad afterwards

?

Why would he look bad after defending a greenflip..?

[innocentvillager]

He said he knew he would look bad IF geraint flipped scum which in thsi hypothetical scenario geraint doesn’t flip scum

[innocentvillager]

I agree with you that gera and Kitty are unlikely to be scum together

[innocentvillager]

I’m kind of surprised at how quickly the geraint wagon evaporated tbh

[innocentvillager]

I’d like to relook over Scol later td ideally before we go through with this

[innocentvillager]

is my logic good

Ur too funny

[innocentvillager]

My new scumteam is like Dannflor KittyTacky Herta (???)

Wait what?
How do dannflor/kitty work with herta

Why is dannflor switching between gera/scol, he shouldnt care if he's scum

And also why does kitty care so much abt whether or not we flip gera?

Posturing for Dann because exactly because he doesn’t care who flips

Whiteknighting for Kitty/maybe he felt locked into this read for whatever reason so just wants towncred idk

At that point it seemed reasonably likely gera was going through

Not saying I have any remote confidence in any of these scum but it’s just a gut shot

I mean yeah in my mind this is starting to get a little stretch-y as motivation for them to be scum

I’m not saying it’s scum/partner indicative

You’re the one saying it’s incongruent, I’m just providing a possible explanation

Thinking Whiteknighting is definitely a thing some people like to do, idk KittyTacky that well

Dannflor’s entire scum game plan like literally last week in my game (self confessed) was to posture around and look like he was having very real thoughts by pushing and unpushing wagons etc. so at the very least he’s capable of this sort of behavior for that sake

[innocentvillager]

unwnd how’s your workout

[innocentvillager]

As long as it’s somewhat plausible and given that I am literally throwing out the 3 exact scum out of 11 possible candidates on D1 I don’t really feel that bad about it

[innocentvillager]

I'm not a chaotic scum I'm more a 'web of deceit' scum

Now you’re just copying pooky’s meta on you

[innocentvillager]

I'm about to leave right now thanks for reminding me IV

glad to be a positive motivator in your life

[innocentvillager]

I think Dann’s posturing gives me zero doubt that he could be scum with Herta/not gera or Scol especially given the game I just played with him

I’ll give you that Kitty’s Whiteknighting does seem a touch random for scum but it’s weak

[innocentvillager]

also why do you think scum unwnd would try to egg on a hammer on town!scoli atp

This is a good post

[innocentvillager]

UNVOTE:

herta can you share some more of your thoughts with us please

Thank you

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: gera

Wow that was an interesting flip you did on your 99.9% scumread to sheeping him… I mean you are the IC but I’m just surprised? Is there something you saw?

[innocentvillager]

Herta’s posting vibes this page kinda wack idk

[innocentvillager]

Herta did you write 1043 in response to Pooky..?

[innocentvillager]

also dont e-1 until after toto claims his info

Yes.

I think we need a claim from geraint asap

[innocentvillager]

Herta’s posting vibes this page kinda wack idk

I sorta retract this upon rethinking about it

[innocentvillager]

Are you townreading gera now, Freedom?

Not yet.
I feel like their refusal to claim feels a bit odd.
Though, I would consider them nullish.
UNVOTE:

His refusal to claim is +scum.

Geraintm's scum strategy can be broken down into three layers of defense:

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else. (894)

I see.
I had thought that his refusal to claim was just a playstyle oddity.
Though, it does seem like maybe it isn't as I thought.
VOTE: gera again.

I thjnk refusal/cryptic/drawn out claiming is on average quite towny in my empirical experience. Scol’s theory is like possible but it’s more of a hindsight/confbias narrative kind of read imo

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Scoliosis

I don’t know if I genuinely prefer this slot over geraint but I think we still need some heat here.

[innocentvillager]

That makes two of us

[innocentvillager]

Idk scol’s last post just felt very “agenda-y” and not really like real human thoughts trying to solve a game. It felt like I was listening to someone at a debate round

But I’m also play and think very differently from him so idk

[innocentvillager]

Yeah he kind of forced himself into that claim when he AtE’d back when he was a huge wagon

[innocentvillager]

if geraint claims and we decide to kill one of Scol and ger will you tell us what your info is then?

[innocentvillager]

like will you claim before we decide which one of those two to kill but we decide it’s definitely gonna be one of them

[innocentvillager]

I want to hear any further claims today before I release what I know to get max value.

This was a townie post

[innocentvillager]

Are you townreading gera now, Freedom?

Not yet.
I feel like their refusal to claim feels a bit odd.
Though, I would consider them nullish.
UNVOTE:

His refusal to claim is +scum.

Geraintm's scum strategy can be broken down into three layers of defense:

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else. (894)

I see.
I had thought that his refusal to claim was just a playstyle oddity.
Though, it does seem like maybe it isn't as I thought.
VOTE: gera again.

I thjnk refusal/cryptic/drawn out claiming is on average quite towny in my empirical experience. Scol’s theory is like possible but it’s more of a hindsight/confbias narrative kind of read imo

I don't agree with this by the way and your vote switch makes me raise my eyebrows a little bit.

Obviously you don’t because you literally argued directly against it, it’s just where we beg to differ.

What exactly raises eyebrows other than the fact that I’m just voting for you now?

[innocentvillager]

There is a very nonzero chance we are just wasting our time on two town wagons and scum is sitting back laughing but whatever

[innocentvillager]

Uh bub check his role

My trolls are too cryptic I guess

[innocentvillager]

I think he needs to claim too

I have seen town refuse to claim immediately many many times

[innocentvillager]

That first paragraph might be one of the longest sentence I have ever read lol I thought my sentences were long

[innocentvillager]

I’m sorry I literally cannot parse what you’re saying in that paragraph my dumb head exploded

[innocentvillager]

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they’re stupid or scum I guess is my first thought

There are points for and against him claiming and my opinion is that the pros outweigh the cons

You are sitting there saying “here are all the obvious pros if he’s town he’s stupid for not seeing eye to eye with me on this”

I think he’s made clear that he’s not claiming because of some cons that could be reasonable to him and also only he knows his role in theory. I’m not saying he couldn’t have made this up as scum, that’s why I’m not defending him

[innocentvillager]

I'm starting to think that you have some role that is rare for Town to have.

Yes and geraintmn doesn't have a fake claim prepared yet so he's milking the mysterious card.

This is a really bad take

No scumteam “stalls for time” like this

[innocentvillager]

If geraint is scum he is doing exactly what you said earlier, just delaying and creating mystery and intrigue around the role in hopes people will move off. He is not scrambling to find a fakeclaim and stalling, he has one ready. There are 3 people on the scumteam

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Geraintm

I didn’t realize he only have 4 votes

Please claim geraint

[innocentvillager]

I shall say again, I am not going to claim I have a role.

I love that people sit there and say I am dumb for my views....and I haven't even mentioned that I think town should not eliminate anyone day 1....

...then how would we get a Day 2 with any information? Your whole shtick is to see the alignment of the D1 flip and push off of that right?

[innocentvillager]

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else

I suppose this js true.
As I have said, I am not claiming anything.
Day 1 where scum whip round loads of wagons forcing a succession of claims is not good for town.

If anyone thinks my stance on claiming has been plucked from nowhere to try and escape pressure now, I said thr above a while ago and i believe it stands now

No one thinks that (at least I certainly don't, sounds kind of dumb)

[innocentvillager]

I shall say again, I am not going to claim I have a role.

Do you not want to claim on D1 when you get run up in general? Is it because Scol already claimed? Is it because of the nature of your role? Help us understand so we can talk you into doing it

I know you said that you don't like running up too many people on D1 and that sentiment is somewhat understandable to me. I believe Val for example laid out a bunch of reasons why it's better for you to claim. Another relevant thing seems to be that Toto's information can help town and your claim might assist in that. Please discuss these issues in more depth or claim.

Because if you don't claim we are actually just going to kill you

[innocentvillager]

Based on your recent posting, it sounds like if Scol hadn't claimed then you wouldn't be as opposed to claiming. So every claim in your eyes is severely -EV to town. Is that correct?

My question to you is: Do you really think the difference between 0->1 claims is not as large as the difference between 1-2 claims?

I would say no, and I think you need to present a compelling argument if you believe otherwise.

The fact of the matter is, Scol has already claimed, we cannot change that 1 person has claimed. So if you would claim if Scol hadn't claimed but not right now, I suggest you reconsider it from a logical perspective.

[innocentvillager]

If you are not going to claim, I think you should at the very least genuinely look at it from the perspective of an uninformed townie in this game and suggest a reasonable course of action. I know you think Scol is townier than not, but we have to do *something*. You can bombshell a case on someone else if not. Make a case for that something even if you feel like it's choosing between the best of a few bad worlds.

[innocentvillager]

You can bombshell a case on someone else if not

I personally don't think this is very realistic, to be clear, so it has to be something that you think we can practically do

[innocentvillager]

ive never seen anyone stall like

by being here all the time and doing this my brain hurts

I’ve literally never seen it either

I legit don’t think scum stalling to think of a claim over a week is a defensible argument

[innocentvillager]

ok but why is it town to do so

It’s town to do so because scum never does it

Geraint could be scum here but he has a fake claim ready if he’s scum. He’s not stalling

[innocentvillager]

like i guess it's like

i see there's a relatively Easy way to deal with pressure if people think you're a wolf: see above

but he's doing the weirdest obtuse like, stick to his mafia morals play that doesnt make anyone like his posting really (except me but maybe im insane) and doesnt offer anything

i dont get why he would want to die unless hes being bussed or s/t

It’s possible scum decided to go for this approach because multiple of us are getting pocketed (including me and you and I think a couple others suggested newfound hesitance on geraint)

[innocentvillager]

Based on your recent posting, it sounds like if Scol hadn't claimed then you wouldn't be as opposed to claiming. So every claim in your eyes is severely -EV to town. Is that correct?

My question to you is: Do you really think the difference between 0->1 claims is not as large as the difference between 1-2 claims?

I would say no, and I think you need to present a compelling argument if you believe otherwise.

The fact of the matter is, Scol has already claimed, we cannot change that 1 person has claimed. So if you would claim if Scol hadn't claimed but not right now, I suggest you reconsider it from a logical perspective.

geraint can you answer this please?

[innocentvillager]

It is wack that is why I am trying to get him to cooperate

But it doesn’t make him scum pooky

[innocentvillager]

like i guess it's like

i see there's a relatively Easy way to deal with pressure if people think you're a wolf: see above

but he's doing the weirdest obtuse like, stick to his mafia morals play that doesnt make anyone like his posting really (except me but maybe im insane) and doesnt offer anything

i dont get why he would want to die unless hes being bussed or s/t

It’s possible scum decided to go for this approach because multiple of us are getting pocketed (including me and you and I think a couple others suggested newfound hesitance on geraint)

doesn't that like
require predicting the exact thing that would work on all of us

Scum gambit and get lucky all the time

[innocentvillager]

like i can see how scum him thinks

1) claim vt get limmed

2) claim a role get caught on nightplay somehow or get caught for surviving too long

and then decide its better to not claim

town him deciding oh im not gonna claim because if i claim a role then you guys will

run someone else up

is whack because he literally wants us to run someone else up

without

him claiming and getting pinned to something.

I wouldn’t call this stalling

[innocentvillager]

I’m not convinced on anything either

I think both you and Pooky have reasonable points and that’s why I’m conflicted.

I just wish geraint would be more proactive

[innocentvillager]

like maybe hes right and im just butthurt that i lost to scum him stalling thru like 8 days doing jack shit while town did nothing

but he literally saw me catch his partner on d1 and yeet them and then he nightkilled me night one so i know his d1 doesnt matter all wagons r on town is a load of horseshif

I don't think he ever said all d1 wagons are on town, just that it was <rand to be scum.

[innocentvillager]

First of all I would say it's important to distinguish those for clarity of communication especially in this case. You are implying that just because in one of his recent game's, scum was eliminated D1, so he should logically reverse his policy or otherwise he's scum for sticking to that belief. Clarifying that he only said d1 wagon is <rand to be town weakens that argument a lot.

The issue is I think he at the very least holds this belief as town too. I agree with you that it is "wack", and that

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward

(we have to do SOMETHING).

If we are killing geraint, I think we should be honest about how much of the kill is genuine belief in him being scum and how much of it is policy. It feels to me like part of you wanting geraint dead is emotional/policy (which is fine). I think there is a portion of my current vote on geraint that is policy too.

[innocentvillager]

Toto I think it is extremely dangerous for you to keep withholding your info

This day could be over any second

[innocentvillager]

geraint if you claim no matter what I will switch my vote over to Scol. But I'm not going to switch my vote unless you claim

[innocentvillager]

I would want to keep trying to convince you but you have ignored my questions and posts towards you and we don't have much time left so I am sort of giving up on that avenue. For me it is claim or die. You are being extremely unhelpful to town by doing what you are doing, there's no other way to put it. Literally no one cares except you that you said "eliminate me on the spot if I give a claim", we're just not going to do that.

[innocentvillager]

geraint is almost certainly town and my vote on him is 100% policy at this point

I can't remember the last time I policied someone

[innocentvillager]

Based on your recent posting, it sounds like if Scol hadn't claimed then you wouldn't be as opposed to claiming. So every claim in your eyes is severely -EV to town. Is that correct?

My question to you is: Do you really think the difference between 0->1 claims is not as large as the difference between 1-2 claims?

I would say no, and I think you need to present a compelling argument if you believe otherwise.

The fact of the matter is, Scol has already claimed, we cannot change that 1 person has claimed. So if you would claim if Scol hadn't claimed but not right now, I suggest you reconsider it from a logical perspective.

geraint can you answer this please?

If you are not going to claim, I think you should at the very least genuinely look at it from the perspective of an uninformed townie in this game and suggest a reasonable course of action. I know you think Scol is townier than not, but we have to do *something*. You can bombshell a case on someone else if not. Make a case for that something even if you feel like it's choosing between the best of a few bad worlds.

I shall say again, I am not going to claim I have a role.

Do you not want to claim on D1 when you get run up in general? Is it because Scol already claimed? Is it because of the nature of your role? Help us understand so we can talk you into doing it

I know you said that you don't like running up too many people on D1 and that sentiment is somewhat understandable to me. I believe Val for example laid out a bunch of reasons why it's better for you to claim. Another relevant thing seems to be that Toto's information can help town and your claim might assist in that. Please discuss these issues in more depth or claim.

Because if you don't claim we are actually just going to kill you

First of all I would say it's important to distinguish those for clarity of communication especially in this case. You are implying that just because in one of his recent game's, scum was eliminated D1, so he should logically reverse his policy or otherwise he's scum for sticking to that belief. Clarifying that he only said d1 wagon is <rand to be town weakens that argument a lot.

The issue is I think he at the very least holds this belief as town too. I agree with you that it is "wack", and that

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward

(we have to do SOMETHING).

If we are killing geraint, I think we should be honest about how much of the kill is genuine belief in him being scum and how much of it is policy. It feels to me like part of you wanting geraint dead is emotional/policy (which is fine). I think there is a portion of my current vote on geraint that is policy too.

None of this was addressed

The only defense I hear repeated over and over again is "i don't want to die but it is bad if scum runs up 'multiple' wagons and so therefore I should just not claim despite town saying they'll kill me if I don't" which just doesnt answer any specific questions and is just a massive leap in logic imo

[innocentvillager]

I see.
It does feel like there's been more of a push on gera than Scol.

I agree with this sort of

I think it's definitely possible Scol is scum here which is why I would love to pivot but I'd rather policy geraint for my own sanity at this point

[innocentvillager]

If I claim a role, then town flails to a different bad wagon.
It may well force another town member to claim, all good for scum.

If I claim vanilla and town forces through an elimination of me, well you can all deal with that outcome because there was nothing I could have done today to stop that.

So I repeat I think it is best for town that I not claim.

CLAIM.

FUCKING CLAIM.

YOU WILL DIE IF YOU DON'T CLAIM.

YOU DON'T WANT A TOWNIE TO DIE, DO YOU?

I don't want to die no. Being green, I want to survive.
I have also said repeatedly that I am not going to claim a roll, I think scum switching through wagon after wagon to get multiple claims doesn't help town.
I have also said if I do make a claim, eliminate me on the spot.

I do think my day 1 thinking is at the extreme wing of mafiascum play, I acknowledge that. And many will.call it irrational, but it is what I think..
I've tried all through today to tease out why people are voting for me and respond when there is an actual argument or point out when there is no obvious reason for their vote. But people haven't engaged with these attempts and people are now fixated on the claim thing and I am giving no one a blank cheque to say "we had to vote them because they were stubbon" as a GOOJFC.

That switch can hit scum! But if we don't switch we will hit town... if you're town, you know you are town. So you lower the expected value of day 1 even more with your play. Oh my God this is just horrible play and it's been nuking my townread of you.

Here's an ultimatum.

Claim within 4 hours or I hammer, and thus (assuming you're town and not scum trying to play off your town meta), a townie dies. No ifs, ands, and buts. Your next post should contain a full claim. Any claim will result in me not hammering or voting you without another good reason.

Kitty you hate policies but isn't this literally threatening a policy hammer...? I'm confused

[innocentvillager]

Also why is half the game active lurking with a day to deadline

[innocentvillager]

Fairs

Tik tok people

[innocentvillager]

Show me a game where scum actually did this

[innocentvillager]

Part of scumhunting in this game involves exploiting the meta not do what is theoretically correct assuming everyone is mixing strategies optimally

[innocentvillager]

I should’ve read your paragraph more closely before I posted that, I see what you’re saying and there’s definitely merit to it

It doesn’t change my strategy here. I am not going to switch off of gera if he doesn’t claim

[innocentvillager]

I think even with Toto’s possibility of revealing some information about geraint like you should still probably just go for the claim

In a normal game your claim has a chance to be proven wrong anyway

I agree the chances are slightly higher here but I doubt this information could Really increase the risk “that much”

Anyway I’ll concede that it’s possible the scumteam is thinking like that though. I still don’t think it’s as likely as the alternative

[innocentvillager]

I want to give geraintm one last chance to claim.

[innocentvillager]

I have some extra info about town prs ill keep to myself.

Assume you die tomorrow

Is it +scum to out this info right now?

[innocentvillager]

No we would've killed Scoliosis, not run up a 3rd person.

I had like at least 5 questions in there also

[innocentvillager]

I am not unvoting and Kitty is going to hammer you when he wakes up or Pooky or anyone really

Do you think your stubbornness > your death here?

[innocentvillager]

The issue with no lim is that we don't get to see any flips. We don't even have a shot at flipping a potential scum. You think Scol is town but you yourself said d1 info is bollocks/are you THAT sure Scol is town?

[innocentvillager]

No we would've killed Scoliosis, not run up a 3rd person.

I had like at least 5 questions in there also

you had many questions, it is 11:30 pm here and trying to focus on what i can.

I understand. This may be your last night playing this game, but obviously RL comes first. Thank you for taking the time to answer questions

[innocentvillager]

i have always though giving scum a free death is bad

You have said D1 wagon is < rand to hit scum. I honestly might even agree. However Pooky and I have been in games with you where scum got flipped D1. Clearly it is not always to go on town in your experience.

So why think of eliminating D1 as a free death?

It's only a free death if you don't claim and we eliminate you.

At least with Scol there's a chance he flips scum, right?

[innocentvillager]

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward (we have to do SOMETHING).

i would argue that i have actually put forward 3 names with actual thought to it, based on actual actions in this game (i always liek looking at actual actions in game, and votes on my wagon are real events) - which is way more than most people who have gone arond claiming people are scum because they don't like how i have posted or the lenght of time between posts.

I don't disagree that you have put out some reads/leans. I think your time between posts is fine.

I have an issue with the fact that you refuse to cooperate with town and you refuse to consider the bigger picture and come up with a practical path forward

It's not practical to wagon someone else, 2 days or right now
It's not practical to get everyone on board for no lim, you know that

It's either you claim and we kill Scoliosis
You claim and somehow you unluckily end up dying
You don't claim and you definitely die

Which one is it and why is that better?

[innocentvillager]

I really want to work with you here geraint

[innocentvillager]

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward (we have to do SOMETHING).

i would argue that i have actually put forward 3 names with actual thought to it, based on actual actions in this game (i always liek looking at actual actions in game, and votes on my wagon are real events) - which is way more than most people who have gone arond claiming people are scum because they don't like how i have posted or the lenght of time between posts.

I don't disagree that you have put out some reads/leans. I think your time between posts is fine.

I have an issue with the fact that you refuse to cooperate with town and you refuse to consider the bigger picture and come up with a practical path forward

It's not practical to wagon someone else, 2 days or right now
It's not practical to get everyone on board for no lim, you know that

It's either you claim and we kill Scoliosis
You claim and somehow you unluckily end up dying
You don't claim and you definitely die

Which one is it and why is that better?

just wanted to bump this in case you didn't see cuz ik ur sleeping soon

[innocentvillager]

geraint the entire town including the IC with potentially valuable information related to your claim wants you to claim even if now everyone has explicitly said it

Certainly zero people have argued against it

but yeah get to the last part before you respond to this

[innocentvillager]

*even if not everyone has explicitly said it

[innocentvillager]

If you die it will be noted by us that you think unwnd, Freedom, and Dannflor's votes on you are sus. But that's not the urgent issue at hand

[innocentvillager]

What’s an L…? I think this is pretty good result

[innocentvillager]

Toto is alive and geraint obviously flipped tonw

[innocentvillager]

Oh was that meant for the scum PT mb

[innocentvillager]

Is it standard practice to design a setup where the IC can be protected? Feels a little broken but I don’t understand aetups

[innocentvillager]

let’s not speculate on that pls

Wait why not is it against rules…?

Also hi GeorgeBailey

[innocentvillager]

I don’t think it’s +scum they have more information about what happened than we do

[innocentvillager]

I bet you’re scum and already know the answer, that’s why you’re saying this :3

[innocentvillager]

Okay I mean I don’t really care that much I guess I’ll just go along with what the experts say here

[innocentvillager]

the sun rises. everyone is dead except innocentvillager and Ydrasse.

it is now day 2.

Fixed

[innocentvillager]

Is it really more unlikely than 12.5% that all 3 scum decided they would lose no towncred from being on gera’s wagon? Hard to say imo

[innocentvillager]

Kitty that was literally like the first time I can think of where I policy voted my top townread

[innocentvillager]

carrot to stick for wolf what dat

[innocentvillager]

hmm I like your thoughts

[innocentvillager]

I feel like there could’ve been more urgency for people to do shit at EOD in general which there was a notable lack of. Im not sure what that means for my reads necessarily

[innocentvillager]

Experience told me geraint was town as I kept interacting with him

Doesn’t mean I am a better player than you idk why you are making it about that

[innocentvillager]

What is the scum motivation for me to cal geraintm obviously town then policy him

It might be NAI but I don’t see how you can think it’s scum indicative since there’s no motivation for me to do that

[innocentvillager]

“but I am theorising scum!you has overestimated how obvious it was to the other slots you are trying to sell the idea of town!IV to“

This doesn’t make any sense to me