Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[Rhinox]

lol @ nacho

Vote: 4nxi3ty

because

[Rhinox]

Alicewondering is last on my list because she's one of the players in this game I have no prior knowledge of and she was already last on the player list so I didn't move her anywhere.

Will you answer your own question?

[Rhinox]

Oh, scrambled the word order into "who is in your last will".

ha I did that at first too. Had to read it slowly a couple times

[Rhinox]

DDD, if you think asking for the last person in a person's will is "useless information," then why did you ask the question in the first place?

oooh good point

[Rhinox]

aside: just realized I messed up my joke vote. Instead of vote: 4nxi3ty, it definitely shoulda been v0t3: 4nxi3ty

missed opportunities, man...

[Rhinox]

DDD, if you think asking for the last person in a person's will is "useless information," then why did you ask the question in the first place?

oooh good point

Rhinox, do you always BS your way through RVS like you are now? Or is this just how you play your scum games? (srs question)

Most of your "scumhunting" so far has been related to DDD. By that, I mean deflecting his question back to him and this post above. What do you think of DDD, Rhinox?

DDD, good answer.

So I agreed that you have a good point and you accuse me of BSing? Thats kinda a low blow. I'm going to completely ignore your obviously loaded question even though you tagged it as a "srs question"

As for your "analysis" of my "scumhunting"..

A) its still early in the game, I haven't considered anything I've said to be serious scumhunting, moreso just trying to get into the game and get out of the RVS and stuff, like everyone else.

B) I don't think anything about DDD right now, and

C) as for "deflecting" his question, lrn2buzzword kthx. I answered his question, which is directly opposite of "deflecting". Asking him to answer his own question is not "deflecting". Usually when people ask questions in the RVS, they answer their own questions. DDD didn't provide his answer right away, so I asked him for his answer.

And now for my big finish, a snarky and obviously sarcastic mocking of your "attack" against me:

Lastsurvivor, most of your "scumhunting" has been misconstruing what others have said. Do you always push BS like this? Or is this just how you play your scum games? (srs question)


------------------------------


@DrunkFishy: awww man c'mon that hurts I thought we were friends

@SoberFishy: This is the 3rd last will game we've played together and we've played other games aside from those... Its a little hurtful that you have to go look up my meta *sniff*. But mostly, I'm not really buying it, and I guess this'll be the first Last Will game I don't have you at the top of my Last Will

[Rhinox]

@fishy: just curious, which games of mine did you use to meta my early game play?

[Rhinox]

So all I really get out of that is you wanted to make sure someone else was going to support voting for me (fishy) before you would vote me yourself.

LOL at making a big deal about "fluff posts" less than 24hrs into the game, while its still RVS time, and not everyone had even posted yet.

(lol harder that you think defending myself is a scumtell)

DDD asked a question, that was obviously just a device to spark conversation about something. Not a town or scum tell. It was a good point (not a strong point or a scum point) you had but it says more about you than DDD. DDD gave the expected answer. thus, I am not leaning town nor scum towards DDD (or anyone) right now. Not enough information yet. Anyone that thinks thats a problem 24hrs into a game is either rediculously naive or scum.

But see, it was much more concise to just say I don't think anything about DDD right now, rather than a useless paragraph that amounts to "I don't think anything about DDD right now".

This is so adorable. <3

There it is, the definition of deflecting . We're gonna end up friends, I can tell already.


OK then time to take requests: who else besides nacho wants my vote after I'm lynched then?

[Rhinox]

Did I ever say that? :3

You certainly implied that it was a negative thing that my first real post (as defined by you) was defending myself.

While I admit that there are scum that just sit back and lay low and only show up to defend themselves, you just can't come to the conclusion that anyone is doing that 24hrs in. What usually happens is that a player or group of players gang up and attack a player, and that player responds to everything and quote wars go on and on, and then someone jumps in and is all "Hey XXXXX, look all you've done over the past Z pages has been defending yourself you're not scumhunting so you must be scum LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH" - its that sort of BS that just makes me roll my eyes, and thats essentially what you did, just MUCH quicker than I usually see, so kudos for that. But its still BS, becuase once you make your attack post, you've already set me up. I'm not just going to ignore you, so I defend myself and you through out your "your first real post is defending yourself" accusation. If you wanted to make the point that I hadn't scumhunted to your level of approval and posted fluff and etc, you could have done that in your first attack post, not bait me into "defending myself" so you can pad your case.

Okay, here's what I was referring to earlier. If you think that what I posted was reflecting (which it really wasn't since what you confessed that what you posted was just snarky gibberish anyway), then isn't you just saying "LOL" to my points definitely reflecting?

No, my last sentence, which I separated from the rest, was snarky gibberish. You chose to ignore/lump in the part about me accusing you of buzzword scumhunting by saying I deflected DDD's question (which I didn't) and using it as part of your justification for why I'm scum. Deflecting is when you ignore/make light of/minimize/etc points or questions you're uncomfortable addressing. I did not deflect DDD's question, but you certainly did deflect the point I was making about you.

Um. Anyway, Rhino, are there any players you do have thoughts about? They don't have to be solid (we aren't that far into the game after all), but you've gotta have some alignment indications.

Look, sometimes I can get into srs mode in games quickly and sometimes I can't. I hate this part of the game sometimes, all the ambiguously forced "how do you feel about YYYY?" type questions, just gets old sometimes, even though its a necessary part of the game sometimes. But I'm not just going to make up some reads that don't exist just to placate the rest of the town and make myself look good. And while I appreciate that you want to hear all my null reads explained, there's another whole group of people who feel paragraphs about players that don't really say anything and don't end with a confident town or scum conclusion is just being wishy-washy and scummy, so its a lose-lose situation until I find something to have a definitive opinion on. In the meantime, if I get to be the vehical that propels us solidly out of the RVS, then I'm comfortable with that too.

But just consider what you're asking - majority of the players have 2 or 3 posts. Thats nothing to base anything on, and at this stage of the game I try not to bother leaning towards any alignment for anyone because its either so weak the next post I could change my mind for reasons I can't explain, or it leads to a bias in reading those players the rest of the game (too much benefit of the doubt / confirmation bias). The 2 players I've interacted with the most (you and fish) I can't objectively read because I know you're both wrong, and its hard to objectively sort out "Wrong" and "scum" when you're the target.

Nacho is maybe the only other player that made an impression on me. His first post gave me a chuckle and is ultimately meaningless. The rest, nothing I'm ready to lean an alignment on. I think Nacho made a good point that Malee through a vote him for "skimming", but didn't explain what was scummy about it, but I think he gave that point back up when he downplayed Malee's point by being all "but I didn't vote".

Other people need to show up moar before I put too much weight on anything. Making REALLY BIG DEALS of the things being said by the few active people at the start of the game is what leads to town on town on town on town BS while scum sit back lauging at us.

In short, we're like 24hrs in. Its a marathon, not a sprint. Patience..

[Rhinox]

@Fishy - I was just curious if you went back and looked at the past Last Will games and iso'd me, because in both in my first half dozen posts or so I was what you called flippant and friendly, joking around and in the last 1 I made a very similar reference to you being at the top of my will, so I was just wondering why you felt my play in this game was so different.

@LS

defending yourself is really iffy content.

I don't really believe this, but we can just agree to disagree since its not really important right now and I've already explained my feelings on defending in my previous post.

might have been thinking of reflect or reciprocate or something.

So, whats the problem with me asking DDD to answer his own question.

@DDD

I'd love to know why it was a good point other than pandering to LastSurvivor because even you recognize the point was easily addressed.

Well, I was pandering to LS with my post. Even though the point was easily addressed I still wanted to hear your answer, and I was curious how much LS would push on you for what was clearly just a RVS talking point question.

[Rhinox]

nacho...didn't vote vincent?? (now who's not paying attention )

Just because there's a small number of posts doesn't mean that you should put down a serious vote if you don't believe there's scum intent. I also foresee myself speaking with every member of the playlist that posts, so it probably would've been better if my discussion with you didn't start with suspicion, don't you think?

But you never said, was your Vincent vote a serious vote? It just seemed very odd, even for a RVS. I'm not suspicious and I don't read you as scum per se due to that vote, it was just an awkward moment, and it doesn't sit with me.

[Rhinox]

she continued to think that Nacho voted Vincent was bad. Seems like a fabricated case to me.

I don't agree. Scum have no reason to push a case like that if they know the evidence will shoot it down. Seems like she genuine thought nacho had voted vincent. She unvoted when she finally realized she was derping - I'd expect scum to come up with some ad hoc explanation rather than just say oops and unvote.

Do you have nothing to say about the game other than unvoting?

Yo, funkybike, what's up? Give us your thoughts on, like, players and stuff.

I was waiting to see IF funky would respond before throwing my thoughts in here. It is certainly by the book to pressure less active players into posting more, but unfortunately this is about all we're going to get from funky. Fortunately, what we're getting matches town-funky more than scum-funky right now. Unfortunately, my scum meta hardcopy vanished in the crash so I can't confirm. But my recollection is that scum funky is more active and involved, whereas town funky lurks and has no idea what to say most of the time. I think funky just has more fun playing scum. Since I can't confirm my meta I'm not going to rely on it 100% the whole game, but I'm probably not going to be interested lynching funky today, espectially if the reason is his activity. If I were a vig though, he'd be at the top of my list.

however, I am going to VOTE: Rhinox Quite simply there is something wrong here, it seems like you're attempting to emulate a townie, just feels very forced

Acknowledged. Can't really defend against a "something wrong" accusation, so :shrug: Since you can't even pin it down, it does no good to go back and rehash the post you seem to have a problem with so I'll just continue on and you can decide if I get any better or not.

Why did you feel the need to make like 3 posts about it saying pretty much exactly the same thing before I came back to respond? Why did you unvote then revote me before I had said anything about it?

Rhinox, still sticking with your RVS vote?

Is it hurting anything??

I know, I know... I'm getting more townvibes than scumvibes at the moment, when I find a good reason to move my vote, I'll move it.

the interactions between rhinox and hip

What "interactions"?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, I disagree about malee where you say scum wouldn't say oops and unvote. If they realize something is making them look bad, they could definitely back off of it.

And by interactions, I mostly meant the post where he voted you. Vince's take on that threw me off a little.

Yeah but thats still assuming that it was a scum motivated argument to begin with. Does it make sense for scum-malee to push a case based on nacho voting vincent if she knew nacho didn't actually vote vincent? She'd know it was doomed from the start. In that case, I'd expect a "yeah but nacho was still skimming" explaination, rather than an "oops unvote". Because it wouldn't have made sense to push it in the first place knowing it would only look bad.

And assuming malee, town or scum, actually thought nacho voted vincent (and that it was a significant point), then yes "oops unvote" is the likely response no matter the alignment, but that doesn't say anything about whether scum or town would be more likely to make the argument to begin with. Both town or scum can make those mistakes. Malee is technically null from the exchange, but my gut is saying she's town. Anecdotally, scum are usually more careful to make sure their cases are at least logically sound, if completely fabricated.


(and I was only poking fun about the "interactions" because it implies there was a back and forth between 2 or more parties, not one side repeating the same thing over and over again before the other side responds >.>)

[Rhinox]

Dislike Rhinox becuase of the very soft way he's been playing. There's absolutely no conviction in the arguments he was making; his "good point" from LS wasn't actually a good point and it was just the first in a set of panders towards LS that he mde.

Well we can't all be hardasses like fate >.>

But we talked about the "good point" comment already so I'm not sure what more I can say about it. "

good

point" probably wasn't even the right wording anyways, maybe "interesting point" woulda been better. But it was all just about gauging reactions from you and LastSurvivor, not that I ever intended suspecting you as scum for it.

I'm interested to hear what other argument

s

I've been showing no conviction in, and what other pander

s

towards LS I made. And most importantly, why they're bad/scummy?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, not necessarily. When scum lay down a vote, regardless of the intent behind it, and they are pressured for the vote, it is very common for them to go "oh shit, you're right. Silly me, unvote".

Yeah, but town do that too, especially when you have in your mind that X voted Y as part of your reasoning but X never voted Y.

But 4nxi3ty/fishy/others are making convincing points - Malee's original vote was for nacho skimming, and he skimmed whether he actually voted vincent or not, and Malee has been seemingly skirting the issue and not really answering questions about when she did and didn't think that nacho voted vincent, and why the fact that nacho didn't vote vincent makes his skimming no longer scummy in her opinion.

@Malee Site flaking:

Also I've noted how Rhinox began pushing on hiplop after I noted what hiplop did in voting him (#135).

Not sure I understand what you're saying here

[Rhinox]

unvote: vote alicewondering

I agree with 4nxi3ty #187. Your explanation is that you can have more than 1 suspect - ok fine, but then why are you switching to funky now? No explanation for the vote or unvote. What made malee less scummy and funky more scummy? malee replacing out?

[Rhinox]

/prod dodge and notice that

I will be V/LA Thursday Night to Monday Morning this coming weekend

[Rhinox]

All those who have recently posted "Prod dodge": I want a reads list in your next post of at least five players. You must find at least two of those players scummy.

I think I've given enough reads in my posts already to satisfy your demand. I see no point in repeating them in a list. If you're looking for a talking point, then just iso through my posts and you can let me know if you agree or disagree with any of them. No one has had anything to say about my reads when I originally posted them, so I don't believe I have an obligation to placate you with a list now.

[Rhinox]

I don't vote for people replacing out.

Why not? Are scummy players no longer scummy once they replace out?

P.edit: already kinda addressed by SA:

Alice, what makes replacing out a town tell? Once replaced, would you be willing to vote a player based on Malee's play?

Sorry, when did I ever say replacing out is a town tell? I only remember saying that Malee is still my primary scumread. Yes, I would be willing to vote a player based on Malee's play, but I certainly would take into account the replacement's play.

Reading this, even though Malee is your primary scum read, you must not feel very strongly in that convinction. If Malee is scum, does it matter what the replacement has to say?


I'm not a fan of hiplop #214. It has a bit of that "cheeky scum" feel to it, to borrow a term from fate. Basically it just seems like he's using sarcasm to avoid playing seriously.

DDD and Rhinox are scum, imo.

Why am I scum?

tl;dr version: Holy shit, 4n slipped under my radar and is obvscumbuddy with Bike. Malee is now town because 4n/malee are obvnotbuddies.

I keep catching myself wanting to think that 4n is the "scum flying under everyone's radar", but everytime I go to iso him, I just don't see it and I find myself agreeing a lot with things he's saying. I also don't see a connection between 4n and bike.

unvote, vote: Rhinox
inb4"OMG He Voted Without Providing An EXPLANATION"

Ok I'll bite. why?

And why the need to draw attention to yet provide sarcasm to brush off voting without an explanation?
p.edit: I see you already kinda addressed this in post #225, so. mmmkay.

People dont just have a preset plan for the game, it makex no sense.

This seems like an idealist viewpoint. However, some players do consciously plan to play certain ways. Do you think players like Fate (jeez why do I keep thinking about Fate today) are REALLY ANGRY AND PISSED OFF ALL THE TIME AND THATS WHY THEY POST IN CAPS? No, its because its a predetermined playstyle they choose to do.

DDD, you have left your vote on nacho for being on cruise control yet you haven't really pressured any of his recent posts or actions...?

Hey guys Nacho is still totally doing nothing useful; maybe he'd start doing something useful or at very least we'd lynch scum if ya'll voted him as well!!!

This post is starting to give me the impression you're a lyncher with nacho as a target. You haven't done anything the whole game except ride this minor "nacho is on cruise control" point, but I see you as being as equally on cruise control.

You still haven't expanded on the vague accusations you made towards me that I asked you about here

VOTE: Nachomama

die scum die

Why change your vote now?

[Rhinox]

Does anyone find the fact that Funky clearly doesn't read the thread scummy? I'll answer when others answer.

I think funky does read the thread, he just only comments on what he wants to, doesn't care what anyone demands of him, and doesn't care if people find him scummy for it. I don't think funky is scummy, I think if you actually read what he is saying, he's been making some decent points.

rhinox said he was disappearing, nacho wagon gained a player/he became more interesting to you folk

I said I was going to be away for 3 days.

Read back. Been accused of saying it too many times already granted altest post seems genuine, still more scum than town

I did read back. The only thing I see is that you think my one big post early in the game was scum trying to look like a townie. Is there anything else?

All rules have exceptions, was raised on english...gained this moral

Then why make a definitive "nobody but scum have playstyles" statements? How do you know nacho isn't an exception to your rule?

alice i have been pretty clear in saying nacho/rhinox are likely both scum. Fine with either's death. More steam/less active pursuit = vote nacho

You're posts tell me you're most sure that I'm scum, but you're voting nacho now because there is more support and its easier to get him lynched. You even said not too long back that DDD might be scum instead of Nacho - what changed your mind there? This looks like textbook scum going with the flow to blend in with the most townies.

unvote, vote hiplop

@Rhinox: It doesn't make anyone less scummy if they're replacing out, as I said before. But I almost always unvote when someone replaces out--it's a matter of style. Sometimes I've misread people because I've mistaken playstyle for scummy behavior, and I'd at least like to see what a replacement has to say. It's more information to form a read on.

ok, I'm starting to see that this is more a theory disagreement, than you being scum. But I do have one more question. Do you think a replacement provides more/better information if they aren't under any pressure, or if they immediately have to face a bandwagon full of voters who found their predecessor scummy?

[Rhinox]

He said himself that he was voting for nacho because it was a more viable lynch with more support.

[Rhinox]

He said himself that he was voting for nacho because it was a more viable lynch with more support.

And that shouldn't be a consideration at all? It's not as if he tossed aside everything he said perviously to take an easy lynch; he simply moved within his own suspicions to a wagon that might actually flourish.

Not when he is sure I'm scum, and he's been waffling back and forth over which of you or nacho is my partner.

[Rhinox]

Nice adhom in #272. I'm on the right track then.

You, and nacho are about equal in my books. Can you really not grasp basic connotation? I used "maybe even DDD"...because my only thought on him is hes kinda lurky.

I'm refering to this:

DDD and Rhinox are scum, imo. Maybe even Nachomama instead of DDD.

Nacho is doing what every player who has been "Scum-meta'd" does, "CHANGE THEIR PLAYSTYLE" in heavy air quotes (its more fashionable that way). And quite bluntly, I see a connection between rhinox and nacho. DDD feels independently scummy, some for his lurking, some for his actual posts.

At this point, you were sure it was me and DDD. But maybe Nacho instead of DDD (which implies definitely me, whether its DDD or nacho).

by post #241, you called me and nacho scum, and you've all but forgotten about DDD. There's nothing in your iso that shows your thought process between 218 to 241, its like you're arbitrarily changing things around on whatever you can easily argue for. There is nothing in your iso until I started questioning you about voting nacho that suggests you ever considered nacho and I equal scum reads. There is no posting trail of evidence that shows you having more of a scum read and nacho and/or less of a scum read on Me/DDD. In 218, you are declaring one thing, and by 241, you were declaring another, and now you are declaring something else - there is nothing connecting the dots between your reads.

Nice observation? I figured you were actual going to leave, not randomly become active?

I was pointing that out in reference to how that is a crap reason to justify moving your vote off of me if you think I'm scum. Does going V/LA make me less scummy? Is there some questions or reactions you're looking to get out of me from your vote, which makes it pointless to leave it there while I'm V/LA? This doesn't make sense either because you're not questioning me and when I ask you why I'm scum you just tell me to read back and when I question you further you just ignore me. You seem content calling me scum based on the assumption that I am scum without having to justify your conclusion.

CAN YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? take a deep breath, and read back. I'm against him for using that as a *defense*, not for having a playstyle.

You sound like you're the one who should be taking a deep breath.

When I read back to post 218/232/234/236, I see you saying that no one really has conscious playstyles they intend to conform to, except for scum. Thus, since nacho is claiming to be changing his playstyle, he must be scum because only scum have a pre-emptive playstyle in mind. so, you are against him having a playstyle, *and* for using it as a defense, I guess. But when Nacho first said he had changed his playstyle, I didn't see him as using it as a defense against a damning accusation, more as just an explaination. The majority of your posting on the subject is about how townies shouldn't have premeditated playstyles, not about using playstyles as a defense.

Anyways, that last paragraph isn't really part of the reason why I'm voting you. Its because you self-admittedly switched your vote to nacho because there's more momentum and support there. I feel that is a scum motivated mindset - townies want to argue vehemently for lynching their #1 suspect, not fold and switch to a secondary (oh sorry, I forgot we're equal now) suspect who happens to be more lynchable in your opinion.

I would like you to spend less time trying to insult me for having the audacity to question you, and more time addressing this, and what happened to your scumread on DDD who you were sure was scum with me in 218, and why your so convinced I'm scum based on 1 post 24hours into the game you felt was faked towniness, and what happened with your scumread on SA who you voted earlier in the game and seemed to just kind of drop (much like your DDD suspicions).

[Rhinox]

do you really think its townie to keep to your reads completely and never veer off in the face of unorthodoxy? Scum are the one attempting to keep to a code, town's reads will generally fluctuate.

Thats not what I'm arguing at all. I'm saying you should be able to show reasons for your reads changing.

As far as i'm concerned, post #280 is a hiplop scum claim. You just repeated what you already said, without giving what I'm really asking for - the reasons

why

. You didn't actually address any of my questions/comments/concerns.

What wiki-based garbage am I using? do tell.


I'm not going to be drawn into a pointless argument where you keep repeating the same unjustified comments and don't actually address anything I'm saying.

More hiplop votes plox kthx.

There are things people do because they're scum. There are also things people do because they have it so lodged in their head that there is no way in God's green earth that they could be wrong. Blatantly lying about the position on his suspect list? Yeah, no scum motive there. Insulting you for questioning him on things that he believes to be completely correct? Stupid, but not scummy.
In things other than that, last time we met I was scum replacing into a shitty position and he was town who was promptly mislynched. So his strongest pursuit of the game is me, with a case that would be pretty damn risky as scum. No scum motive here either.
In short, the scum game that hiplop would have to be running now is risky as hell and being run for absolutely no reason. I can't even think about voting him until I understand why hiplop scum would get it into his mind that any of that would be a good idea. Do you have something that can change my mind?

The core of the issue is that hiplop is playing as if he has some locked down reasoning for why you and I are his top to scum suspects, when that just does not exist. When you actually read his iso, his reads just keep arbitrarily shifting around. What drew my attention was when he switched my vote from me to you because I was going on V/LA and you had more support/momentum. The would be ok if you and I really were equal scum reads for him, or if he was still feeling us out trying to pressure us/get reactions or something. But his posts say I have been his #1 scum read since the start of the game basically, and I don't see any point where he says we're equal scum reads until he switches his vote and I start questioning him for it. So this seems like a scum-motivated vote switch, and then ad hoc reasoning that you and I are equal scum reads when his iso doesn't support that conclusion.

So thats the core, basically - the vote switch for the reasons given, and reads that aren't explained or supported by his iso. Its not about position on a suspect list, only insofar as it supports that he is arbitrarily changing his reads when its convenient to do so. He even says now that he only suspected DDD for lurking but if you go look through his iso you'll find thats not the case either. I'm not saying he has intentionally decided it would be a good idea to lie about his reads as a scum strategy. I'm saying that he's scum who is not explaining reads, and when questioned has started getting a bit flustered, and has resorted to ad hom, responding to accusations by calling me "obv scum" or "lolwikiarguments" in attempt to discredit me (no explanation about why in either case), and in his most recent post just keeps repeating the same unjustified beliefs I've been trying to get an explanation for. Its like he realizes he can't prove my arguments wrong, so he's just going to try to win the argument by arguing louder or insults or saying I have a kindergarten understanding of playing mafia. That is not a townie mindset, that is how scum play when they're beat. And thats when I stop trying to convince scum that they're scum and start trying to convince the rest of you to vote him. So please do.

[Rhinox]

^^scumclaim #2

[Rhinox]

hey instead of making good points lets just call everything that opposes us a scumclaim

im such a good scumhunter

^^scumclaim


It so much better to call everything that opposes us obvscum and resort to childish ad hom insults. Those are so much better points. *thumbsup*


Can someone reitterate to me what they think my case on hiplop is and explain to me why its reaching/weak/exaggerated?

[Rhinox]

Well I still think "hurr I unvoted my #1 suspect to vote my #2 suspect because its easier and more convenient" is a scum motivated action but I can see I'm not really getting anywhere. I've actually done my best to keep my posting with hiplop as much on my suspicions and questions as possible and it was over as soon as soon as hiplop starting adhoming and not really addressing anything I was saying, so... (kinda weird kortal jumping in now telling us to back off since the argument wasn't going away, when, its, kinda already gone away)

Looking at others, I don't really think alice or funky are scum. Maybe themoaner and/or vincent but it seems kinda lazy to go after them now. I still have this gut feeling about 4nxi3ty being scum I can't explain, and DDD hasn't impressed me at all. I think nacho is town, and I feel a lot better about fishy now. LS and SA keeping running together in my mind but I don't feel anything bad about either of them.

So, thats where I'm at.

vote: vincent

I guess.

[Rhinox]

Well after a little time to iso vincent and voided's post after replacing in, I don't have the gut scummy feeling towards vincent I thought I had. I thought I remembered him having a wishy-washy view of me, and then later doing a bit of stirring the pot regarding me/hiplop, but that doesn't seem to be the case after reading the iso.

Alice just feels town to me. I read her posts, they don't seem like things scum would say, not in tone nor content. The worst she did was vote hiplop and then backpedal out of it, but I don't think thats enough to call her scum.

as for funky, I see occassional hints of evidence that he is thinking like a townie, and nothing I can point to that says he's thinking like scum.

just

unvote

for now.

[Rhinox]

4n, nacho, alice, and Rhinox. Please rank bike, alice, and moan in scumminess (alice, you obviously don't have to include yourself in your list)

uh... read my last 2 posts and realize you already have that answer.

Why ask such a useless question anyways? What are you looking to get out of the answers?

Come and vote bike. He's scummy, he's a lurker, and he needs to die. Sure, if he flips town it's not good information-wise, but that's always going to be true with a player like funky - it's more than made up for by the fact that he's likely scum, and that if he's not he's useless town. We have to lynch him in the end, and later there may well be other things we want to do more.

I don't see how its a forgone conclusion we will inevitably have to lynch him at some point. Maybe there's a vig? Maybe there's investigations? Maybe we lynch all the scum before lylo (assuming funky is not scum)? I think its easy to say "oh he's a lurker, he's useless, he's not answering questions" and rally a lynch for that, but none of that means he's scum. I think if you look at some of the things he has been posting, it looks like genuine town trying to figure out scum. It may not be effective or helpful to the rest of us, but that doesn't mean we should lynch him.


Regarding Theomoaner: I don't know about any amished-tell or whatever voodoo scumhunting is being made up here. However I do want to point out 1 thing:

Alice: Probably town.

Alice - Her posts feel like "the voice of reason". She seems to be analysing what others are posting and to try to help others think through their ideas (for example post 148). I can't see scum doing this.

Going back to post 304. I find it interesting that after being questioned on the lack of interaction with me Alice asks

exactly

the same question as Last, and nothing else. Especially of note is

Ugh Malee.

@Malee's replacement: I want a list of reads from you ASAP

and then no comment on my reads at all (original emphasis). I find this a little strange. I've revised my reading of Alice.

VOTE: Alicewondering

I don't get this. Alice didn't comment on your reads, and you find that strange... why is it scummy? and why is it scummy enough to completely erase your previous town read you seemed pretty confident in?

It seems more like you were under a bit of pressure and wanted to support a wagon that had some momentum rather than pursue any of your scum reads.

vote: theomoaner

[Rhinox]

I was somewhat posting that because of the multiple people who've gone "yeah, he's scummy, but we won't get any information if he's town" - this implies that a lurker is a worse lynch than another equally scummy person, which is not at all true.

To me, that kinda says those people aren't really that confident funky would flip scum if they're worried about if he's town

without going point by point and iso funky (which wouldn't be that hard actually, but..), the jist of it is that funky has seemed to be spending more time talking about whats not a scum tell and defending people. That seems like a more town mindset, because it narrows the lynch pool and eliminates options, and locks him into a position where he may have to be contradictory later in the game if he's scum. I'd expect scum-funky to focus more on whats scummy and who he can lynch. I wouldn't expect scum funky to defend malee as much as he has regardless of what malee's alignment is, and I think he's made some comments that shows he's trying to figure out alignments rather than find a point he can lynch someone for (ie: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3920092). I know in the game lost in the crash, funky bussed the hell out of me when I started looking scummy, so I wouldn't expect him to defend a scum partner, and based on what I know of funky I don't expect he would bother defending townies if he were scum either.

I'm not saying that I think his play is a token model of excellent scumhunting, or that he's at all effective or helpful to the rest of the town, just that IMO his motivations seem to be town-sided rather than scum-sided.

I don't really think he was parroting your meta comments - we were in a game together when the site crashed, we were both scum. Unfortunately the game thread is lost but out of the 3 or 4 times I've played in a game with funky, I've felt that was his best game I've seen. There was no one calling him a VI, and many people calling him town. Yet he was scum. Every other time I've ever played with town-funky, and its been like this. Lots of people calling him useless and wanting him lynched. I still think thats indicative of funky being more comfortable playing when he has more information (aka as scum), even though he has said in here that he doesn't like being scum. By the way, I think that is another sign that he is town here - that he didn't just accept my meta defense of him earlier on in the game.

As for his comments about nacho earlier on, I agree with 4nx that there's no scum motivation to not vote if you calling someone sure scum, and I don't see funky as the type of player who would just backpedal away from a read as scum just for getting asked a few questions about it. All the attention and suspicion he's getting doesn't seem to make him want to answer everyone's questions quicker or more thoroughly. I think if he's the type of player that wants to placate others, it wouldn't just be limited to one instance where he changed his suspicion because he was getting attention, he'd be more likely to make sure to respond to everything else against him as well.

[Rhinox]

Hmmm. Not particularly liking Vincent's reaction here.

I think you mean voided, right? (oh wait voided is vincent nevermind)

*ignores Macrophage's vote*

Funky just moved closer to being a viable lynch now (as in, more than a deadline lynch). Malee's slot is still much better.

What? Why? because funky replaced out? Thats almost always null, but in this case, why would scum funky replace out instead of just hammering like he was threatening to do? That doesn't make sense at all.


Mac, you've said a bunch of stuff, but I don't see it as anything scum couldn't have put together after replacing into your position.

Do you see anything scummy about voided/vincent other than stuff that happened on the last page? I noticed through all your big catchup posts, you didn't address vincent/voided at all other than this page stuff.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: yeah, meant Voided. What do you think of him, here and in the rest of the game?

Well I don't think this most recent conversation reflects well on voided at all. I sorta hinted at my feelings about vincent/voided previously when I unvoted vincent - basically, I had a couple vincent posts stuck in my head which caused me to vote him. I remembered him being wishy-washy about his feelings on my alignment in this post, but in the context of his whole iso he seems to have maintained a consistent read of me. And I also remembered this post and felt it was kinda just stirring the pot between me/hiplop when almost everyone else was calling for us to move on. But again, in the whole iso that doesn't look as serious as I thought. A little while back, I was thinking voided's first few posts were a decent entry to the game and a big improvement on the slot. Looking back at those posts now, I'm not so sure now. I don't get why he felt the need to spend so much effort explaining indifference to a funky lynch, rather than just focusing on who he suspected.

Idk, I'm having a tough time being confident of reads in this game. Its like, I see big posts from mac up there and now I'm starting to have doubts about lynching the slot, even though big posts shouldn't mean anything about alignment.

Which reminds me to address:

I'm not liking Rhinox's change of vote from hiplop after fishy says they are town v town. I could see him as scum thinking "Well I don't need to be involved in that anymore." Still, I'm really waiting for the chance to ISO him before changing my townread.

That wasn't really the case at all, so you probably didn't read closely. I still don't like hiplop, but after stating my case, then restating it, then asking others to restate my case so I'm convinced they understand what I'm saying - if after all that the majority of the players I feel are more likely town are telling me to give it up and start considering other options, then its no longer productive to keep focused on hiplop. I have to admit to myself that maybe my case isn't as strong as I thought.

[Rhinox]

I'm actually perfectly content to lynch Macro now, forget what I said before about being unsure.

[Rhinox]

4nxi3ty, I disagree. Macro's push on voided wasn't actually that great IMO. I did not feel like macro's vote was a joke. Voided's reaction wasn't that great, but that may be a separate issue. Independant thoughts - eh scum and town replacements both do that, come in and iso the game and make a big post and everybody goes ooooh aaahhhh see that couldn't possibly come from scum. Except when it does. I'm more interested in the content of the thoughts - page by page iso, lots of "this is what happened's". Lots of unexplained YYY looks town, ZZZ looks scum. Anybody can throw that together. I'm also not a fan that Macro made an accusation towards me in #413, which I responded to, and Macro completely ignored and restated as part of a long winded wishy-washy case towards me (often those come from scum) in #430, as well as ignoring the question I asked him/her about her (I'm just going to use her until you set a gender) about her voided/vincent Pre-"joke" vote read. And its not like she's not reading my posts at all - she seemed to catch where I said I was a having doubts about lynching her, so she's clearly cherry picking what she wants to address/answer/acknowledge. As for not voting funky or LS - meh, here were the votes just after Macro's "joke vote":

Macrophage (6) - Voidedmafia, Debonair Danny DiPietro, rhinox, 4nxi3ty, hiplop, fishythefish
funkybike1 (3) - Sleepless Assassin, Lastsurvivor, kortul
Voidedmafia (1) - Macrophage
Lastsurvivor (1) - nachomamma8
Debonair Danny DiPietro (1) - Alicewondering
Alicewondering (1) - funkybike1

Wouldn't even occur to me to vote LS to save myself had I replaced in in macro's position. As for not voting funky, you imply its the obvious scum move to vote funky to save herself, but if that were true scum would never do it, and then it wouldn't be a tell either way. Its a big circle of WIFOM. Its more likely that town or scum, Macro would realize it was going to take more than voting the only counterwagon to save herself. I don't consider where she dedided to push indicative of her alignment either way.

[Rhinox]

This game...

What did you think my vote was?

Why are you using unexplained reads against me when you could easily ask for explanations?

Which question did you ask?

I had no idea what your vote was. I'd have been right there calling you out for voting voided after just saying you haven't read the thread yet, except others were already going on about it.


I'm not using unexplained reads

against

you. I was rebuking 4nx's statement that your enterance to the game was obv-town. It wasn't. You said a lot of stuff, it could come from town, or it could come from scum, but its not clearly one or the other. As for why not ask you to explain your reads, well you've already been ignoring just about everything I've been saying since you replaced in, expect for things you can use to mudsling. I'd rather lynch you than try to draw out answers at this point.


question:

Mac, you've said a bunch of stuff, but I don't see it as anything scum couldn't have put together after replacing into your position. Do you see anything scummy about voided/vincent other than stuff that happened on the last page? I noticed through all your big catchup posts, you didn't address vincent/voided at all other than this page stuff.

Also, I'd have liked you to address this post by me, which you ignored before just restating the accusation in 430:

Which reminds me to address:

I'm not liking Rhinox's change of vote from hiplop after fishy says they are town v town. I could see him as scum thinking "Well I don't need to be involved in that anymore." Still, I'm really waiting for the chance to ISO him before changing my townread.

That wasn't really the case at all, so you probably didn't read closely. I still don't like hiplop, but after stating my case, then restating it, then asking others to restate my case so I'm convinced they understand what I'm saying - if after all that the majority of the players I feel are more likely town are telling me to give it up and start considering other options, then its no longer productive to keep focused on hiplop. I have to admit to myself that maybe my case isn't as strong as I thought.

Macrophage:

Ugh. It looks like I won't be able to get around this. I'm just a VT. I just couldn't see myself not getting lynched. What I ask is, don't just use this as an excuse to lynch me and don't write me off as scum because of my initial claim. I hope you can think about my actions and see that they come from town.

After an initial not-VT claim, claims VT.
Why on earth do you think Macrophage-scum would do this? He knows that, chances are, he will die if he claims VT. So, if he was scum, then why not go through with the not-VT claim and say doctor, or cop?

Maybe he realized he fucked up his fake claim by trying to slow role it, and realized we'd be unlikely to believe any claim at this point?

(thats just an attempt at a rationalization, not what I think happened)

gah idk... actually I could sheep nacho at this point (he seems to have a clearer/better read of the game at this point than I do at this point, and what he's saying makes a lot of sense to me), or swing for a DDD lynch. I doubt I'll get a much clearer view of the game at this point without additional information from a lynch.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox

1)I'm pretty sure I already answered that. I think I said that vincent said some slightly townie things, some slightly townie things, and other than that, didn't make much of an impression.

2)Your response didn't do anything for me. Scum often have "town" explanations for what they do.

1)I didnt remember you saying anything about vincent but i'll read through your posts again when i get back to a comp.

2)isnt that exactly the same kinda statement you have a problem being used about the things you're saying?

Quit trying to be subtly snarking and address the real issue. Why is it scummy that i backed off of hiplop?

[Rhinox]

Hey guys sorry I was out of town for the weekend and my phone died. I see that today is deadline and someone (LS?) is at L-1. I'll read up what I missed quickly and have some thoughts in a bit.

[Rhinox]

I have no idea what to think right now :S

[Rhinox]

Can we go back to lynch macro actually?

I mean, I feel pretty good about Nacho and DC but I'm just not convinced about LS as scum. DDD would be my second choice - I get his meta is same as town and scum but I don't think his play here matches closely with either of the town or scum games posted as meta evidence.

Theres been a lot of "would scum really do that?" defenses being thrown around - would scum just really give up like LS and asked to be hammered?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox: Macro prob isn't scum. Lynch either DDD or I today. I'd prefer DDD, obviously, but I think my lynch is inevitable at this point.

Also, question: Have you guys ever seen scum that posts at the least almost 2x more than everyone else? Yeah, sure, I've seen active scum, but come on. Why would I have any encouragement to post at least 2x more than everyone else?

Sigh. It's too late for that now.

yes!!! :shrug:

[Rhinox]

End of Day vote count with my townreads in light green:

End of Day Vote Count

Lastsurvivor

(7) -

nachomamma8

, 4nxi3ty,

DCLXVI

, Macrophage,

Alicewondering

,

kortul

, hiplop
Macrophage (3) - Voidedmafia, Debonair Danny DiPietro,

rhinox

Debonair Danny DiPietro (3) - Sleepless Assassin,

fishythefish

,

Lastsurvivor

My current thinking is DDD-scum. That makes SA and voided lean-town, and likely 2 of {4nxi3ty, Macro, hiplop} scum - probably 4nx and 1 of the other 2. SA's vote doesn't feel like a bus. He made comments at the end of the day about not liking either of Macro/LS wagons, while voting DDD. Voided/DDD, eh possible, but I think DDD's recent post points to no. DDD find reasons to call everyone scummy BUT voided. If DDD is scum, thats a pretty good sign voided is town. I don't think hiplop/macro are scum together, so that would make 4nx scum by POE. One of Macro/hiplop as the last scum? I'm not confident here. I could possibly see myself having a bad read on like kortul, or mayyyybe fishy.

If DDD is not scum, then all that is obv thrown out the window.


I don't intend to lynch macro today. Nacho thought the lynch was stupid. LS in his dying breath said not to lynch macro. Two conf-towns not liking the lynch is good enough for me to leave it alone for now. After all the talk of everyone wanting to sheep nacho yesterday, no way scum kills him unless he's actually leading the herd in the right direction.

@nacho giving me his vote, I wonder if he just has a town read and trusts me to make good decisions, or if I was picked specifically because of who I was likely to vote with it (i.e. if LS flipping town caused nacho to change his mind about macro, and thought I'd use the vote to lynch macro) - eh I'm probably reading too much into it. I'll never understand why in all these last will games I end up clueless on who is scum but ppl send me votes anyways

Vote (x2): DDD

[Rhinox]

Looks like VCA (junk) combined with facile appeals to authority in dead townies (logical fallacy). Way to crystalize your spot near the top of my list, Rhinox.

I don't really care where I am on your list or how many buzzwords you can fit into a single sentence

[Rhinox]

Well its not really VCA in the traditional sense. DDD is my strongest scum suspect already I'm not using the VCA to say he's scum. The rest of the VCA is assuming DDD flips scum, following general truths(TM) such as scum likely to be on the D1 mislynch, scum generally spreading out across town wagons, not bussing early if they can avoid it, possibly voting a scum partner if it looks like the lynch won't go through, etc.


Also

V/LA for a couple days

starting now should be back by sunday but don't want to just up and disapear.

[Rhinox]

Looks like VCA (junk) combined with facile appeals to authority in dead townies (logical fallacy). Way to crystalize your spot near the top of my list, Rhinox.

I don't really care where I am on your list or how many buzzwords you can fit into a single sentence

Hey, I don't care about those things either; I care about how you apparently don't have your own opinion just using the opinions of others for cover.

Yeah thats pretty much complete bullshit

@guys asking me about DDD, i said suff about him throughout D1, ask questions, DDD ignored me mostlyy except when it was convenient for him to through out an accusation. I'll organize my thoughts when I'm back to a comp, but DDD saying i dont have my own oppinions is blantant rhettoric bullshit.

[Rhinox]

Ok, so a couple things about DDD I didn't like from D1:

firstly, I was not a fan of how he rode his vote on nacho for nacho being on cruise control. I think DDD himself was on cruise control. Yeah, I get the point that cruise control is not generally scummy for everyone but due to nacho's supposed meta it is for him. But posts like this one rub me the wrong way:

Hey guys Nacho is still totally doing nothing useful; maybe he'd start doing something useful or at very least we'd lynch scum if ya'll voted him as well!!!

Because I don't particularly see that DDD was being any more useful than Nacho was. I mean, just in total posts, nacho had 54 D1 posts to DDD's 27 - twice as many. Sure quantity != quality, what I'm trying to say is that nacho wasn't being useless, and I felt DDD was, and his push on nacho was hypocritical and lazy.

secondly, I don't like how he exaggerated points against me and ignored questions I asked. For Example, for the 3rd time.

also, things like:

DDD, you have left your vote on nacho for being on cruise control yet you haven't really pressured any of his recent posts or actions...?

Hey guys Nacho is still totally doing nothing useful; maybe he'd start doing something useful or at very least we'd lynch scum if ya'll voted him as well!!!

This post is starting to give me the impression you're a lyncher with nacho as a target. You haven't done anything the whole game except ride this minor "nacho is on cruise control" point, but I see you as being as equally on cruise control.

You still haven't expanded on the vague accusations you made towards me that I asked you about here

How did I miss that he accused me of being a lyncher in #257?

DDD cherry picks the 3rd most important thing I said to him in that post, the obviously not-serious lyncher accusation. I was obviously trying to make a point that DDD's push on nacho was weak and lazy, and it didn't seem natural for DDD to be so focused on just Nacho for something so minor.

So DDD can go find this post and say I'm scum for calling him a lyncher, but he never addresses the point I was actually making about his push on nacho being bad, nor does he bother answering the questions I asked. Its like he's just trying to paint things I say in the scummiest possible way.

Couple other minor things raised my eyebrows in D1 but probably not important enough to list. Even the above, I mean I know its not real conclusive if it was I'd have voted him yesterday. What really pushed it over the edge for me was #648 - DDD calling basically everyone scummy, except for voided. I mean he says his list is scum to town, but that at the end he's all everyone inbetween me and voided is interchangeable.


So thats why I voted DDD, and I don't much care for all his rhetoric after my vote either.

Its clear today my top 2 suspects would be macro or DDD. Thats where I was at at the end of the day yesterday. I had macro over DDD but a couple of confirmed townies believing macro to be town bumps DDD ahead of macro. DDD wants to call that a logical fallacy - its not like I'm saying "welp macro is town because dead townies say so", just that I can take that into consideration and trust it a little more. I don't see a problem with that. There's always MD threads about how no one listens to dead townies and scum know that and use it to their advantage. So yeah, I'm going to use nacho and LS reads as another data point. Not THE data point, but a datapoint nonetheless. And as for the VCA, when I said at the end "if DD is not scum then all the above is thrown out", its clear the implication is "iff DDD is scum, then this", and not "this, ergo DDD is scum."


======================================================================

I have bad feelings about DCL and Alice I can't really pin down.

eyebrows raised - specifically because you mentioned alice. What happened between #378 and now that caused you to go from "we're not lynching alice her posting feels fairly convincing" to "bad feelings you can't pin down"?

[Rhinox]

Points labeled to match DDD

1) I did not ignore that you had meta and to paint it as such is missing the point. I thought you were being useless while you were lazily parking your vote on nacho, and I think your uselessness was scummy. And I didn't even feel nacho was being useless anyways. I don't have a good meta on you, but I read through both examples posted by someone earlier on and I don't think your play early on in D1 matches either of the games linked. So I threw out the meta and made up my own mind. Why is it that I'm supposed to accept the meta reasoning of others (who I don't know the alignment of by the way) using it to supposedly clear you or nullify the points against you, but using the beliefs of dead players I know are town is junk?

2) No comment not worth my time.

>.>

No I really can't be that snarky. If someone's ignoring my questions or not acknowledging that I just said something, I'm going to assume its because you don't want attention drawn to it and you're trying to sweep it under a rug. Especially when comments are cherry picked out later on from a post that was ignored, like that lyncher comment. So I'm gonna play devil's advocate - suggesting someone is a lyncher or jester is out of left field. OK. Left field is scummy? Why is this something scum would do?

(and what was odd was that you were so concerned with nacho and only nacho at the time, it was as if you had him as a lyncher target. It seemed unnatural for you to be so focused on nacho. That is what I was trynig to say with the lyncher comment. I was hoping the comment would actually get a response out of you then, not the next day to be used as case filler).

3) Its not about how many town reads or scum reads you have, its that you went out looking to find something scummy to say about everyone, except for voided aparently. (even then, you found something negative to say.). I think its a position scum would like to take. For one, it sets you up to be able to vote just about anyone. Its a good way to hide your scum partners in the list of players that are all interchangeable. Nobody can question why you voted A instead of B, because you can just say well they're interchangeable scum reads.

As for taking into consideration the reads of dead townies, that junk because...? Like I said already, its not like I'm taking their opinions as truths, just taking them into consideration, as I would any living player. As I did when 3 or 4 people were telling me that my case on hiplop was weak. Only now I know the opinion was coming from confirmed town, so it holds a little more weight than coming from a living player I don't know the alignment of. As you're telling me to do when you point how people who say your play is not inconsistent with your town play. Just because a player is dead, doesn't make their opinion junk, and it doesn't make their opinion truth either. Its still just a valid opinion to be considered. However I think scum would love to call the opinion of dead townies junk because scum love to kill off threats and generally no one gives another thought to the opinion the townie had before they were killed.

And as for your underlined comment. Don't you worry, I put on my big boy underoo's this morning and concluded you were scum all by myself. I don't recall saying that because any dead player thought you were scum, I think your scum. What I did was reconsider how I felt about macro (just like when I reconsidered how I felt about hiplop), leaving my very own suspicions of you. Don't you worry, I'll be sure to take ALL the credit when you flip scum

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: Why did you not meta Debonair yourself?

I don't go out of my way to meta people. The value of meta isn't worth the time spent doing it. If I've personally played with someone I'll use what I can remember, or sometimes something will spark a recollection that I'll look back into my own games, or if someone posts links to be used as evidence in the current game then I'll consider that, but I just don't have the time to go look up and read through all the past games of everyone I play with.

[Rhinox]

the problematic part is that it allows you to look for something anti-town while not looking for scum.

This doesn't make any sense.

Intention does not increase accuracy.

But this is true for the living as well as the dead, is it not?

You didn't voice a problem with me or others saying we're going to sheep nacho when he's alive and we don't know his alignment, but all of a sudden when he's dead and confirmed town we're supposed to ignore his opinion because he could be wrong?

Whats the difference between sheeping living nacho, and taking into consideration the opinion of dead nacho (and LS)?

[Rhinox]

I think it does.

Whats the difference between looking for anti-town and looking for scum then? Are you saying you knew you were anti town?

If you can show me where I said it was acceptable to sheep another player you might have an argument here; but I never said that, so you don't.

So... you only speak out against something you don't find acceptable when it hurts your agenda?

[Rhinox]

Also, can you answer the question about that reason for me changing my reads?

sorry, thought I had already answered that.

Your flip on voided is scummy because you start by calling him scum, you then call him town when you are at l-1, then you call him scum again when you are safer. Seems like the read only changed to town because you wanted to save yourself from getting lynched.

If you don't mind could you now answer my question?

What does Macro calling voided town when Macro is at L-1 do to save Macro from getting lynched?

[Rhinox]

/proddodge

Will try to get caught back up but I feel lost in this game now.

[Rhinox]

my apologies for neglecting this game.

[Rhinox]

Planning on getting caught up for real tomorrow, but I still don't like DCL for scum. Like, I'd switch my vote to macro before DCL if DDD isn't going to be lynched.

[Rhinox]

OK well I've read through the last 10 pages or so, so I guess I'm officially caught up. But I really don't have anything grounbreaking to say right now. DCL and alice now magua are still townreads for me. From the last 10 pages, I'd add SA and fishy to my stronger town reads as well. fishy's posts after he came back seemed town, and SA for the way he was vocal against the macro wagon. I mean scum can say town is town for cred if/when they flip but I just feel like SA genuinely believes his argument.

I think its obvious only at most 1 of DDD or Macro can be scum. Choosing between the 2 I still prefer DDD but its not as strong of a belief as before.

The rest: {Kortal, Hiplop, Voided, 4nx} - so there's at least 2 and maybe 3 scum in this group if both DDD/Macro are town. I don't think any of them are getting lynched today though.

Mainly I just got very frustrated with the game a week ago, and I kinda checked out. I felt like nobody was getting my cases so I started doubting everything. I kinda feel like I'm reading a different game than everyone else at times. I'll try to be better from now on.

[Rhinox]

Fishy did you type something wrong in that post? first you say you don't want to lynch DDD then you say you'd rather lynch DDD??

I don't really know what to think about DDD's claim.

I'd be up for lynching voided/4nx but I don't have good reasons why. gut/POE.

[Rhinox]

DCL was the one who made the me-LS link, and so is probtown for me.

<snip>

VOTE: DCL

??

[Rhinox]

Fishy: Switch to 4nx with me? SA makes 5 votes if he joins too, ties it for leading wagon currently.

Otherwise, if I have to choose between macro and DC today I see myself choosing macro.

[Rhinox]

Yeah ok not 4nx with the mason claim.

I think this is the current VC

Macrophage (4) - Voidedmafia, hiplop, Debonair Danny DiPietro, kortul
Debonair Danny DiPietro (3) - rhinox, 4nxi3ty
DCLXVI (4) - fishythefish, Seepless Assassin, Macrophage,
fishythefish (1) - Magua
SA (1) - DCLXVI

Deadline in about 8.5 hours.

DCL - SA really isn't getting lynched today. Magua, neither is fishy.

I really don't like choosing between Macro and DCL. I'm going to renig on what I've been saying though. I like the company on the DCL wagon a lot more than the company on the macro wagon.

unvote, vote DCL

Macrophage (4) - Voidedmafia, hiplop, Debonair Danny DiPietro, kortul
Debonair Danny DiPietro (3) - 4nxi3ty
DCLXVI (6) - fishythefish, Seepless Assassin, Macrophage, rhinox,
fishythefish (1) - Magua
SA (1) - DCLXVI

DCL is at L-1 you should claim ASAP.

[Rhinox]

I'm probably going to regret this

unvote: vote macro

[Rhinox]

Yeah I def. need to be better than I was today. Unacceptable really.

[Rhinox]

Yeah so I have similar thinking as magua considering macro-scum, but came to slightly different conclusions.

{voided, hiplop*, DDD} - all 3 were hard on macro D1 and parked votes there all of D2. Only * is hiplop hammered LS instead on staying on macro D1 but one could argue someone had to hammer to prevent a no lynch. My notes had them all currently town, barring any sort of hard core bussing of macro which I won't rule out completely but doesn't seem necessary. Hiplop had the least activity / stuff to say D2 except for to pop in now and then to be all like "OMG why isn't macro lynched yet" so if anyone bussed I'd say it was hiplop over the other 2 but its not where I'm starting today.

I had 4nxi3ty as town which is now confirmed.

I also reaffirm my town read on DCLXVI since he was the main counterwagon and since I already thought funky was town.

That left {SA, kortul, fishy, and magua} as the group I'd be focusing on today and expect to find the remaining scum.

I got that far friday afternoon. I meant to have something to say about each of those 4 by today, but I unexpectedly lost internet over the weekend since friday afternoon so thats all the farther I got.

I feel more focused with a scumflip now so I should have better activity and content today.

[Rhinox]

Oh, man, I thought I had been given the vote by scum in order to watch the WIFOM and for scum to try to get me lynched.

In the past LW games scum traditionally haven't been giving their votes to their partners IIRC so I don't think that would have happened. But because of that its just as interesting that you were at the bottom than if you'd have been at the top but also just as WIFOM.

[Rhinox]

DDD: actually I am kinda a wall poster by default when I really get going so I'm not going to take any town points you were giving me for that.

Idk I just wasn't sold on either lynch yesterday and waffled. Glad I got my vote in the right place, kinda straightens out my reads I think.

Yeah no good reason for being MIA D2. sorry. I'll just be better.

[Rhinox]

Iso'd SA, took some notes.

Only thing worth posting is a possible connection to macro. In #192, SA does some isos and determines DCL (funky) and macro (malee) are likely scum but votes funky "because I don't feel like putting a player who can't claim at L-1" - when malee was replacing out.

Later, he has an "epiphany" about 4nx and concludes 4nx is scum therefor malee is town and still suspects funky.

Town reads on LS and macro by the end of D1 and heavy defending of macro during D2. Not sure if scum would defend macro like he did.

Those are the IMO noteworthy points, planning to look at kortul next.

[Rhinox]

Gave kortul the same treatment as I did SA earlier.

Saw the same thing fishy pointed out, macro slot was always scum but never voted. SA, funky, alice, funky, alice, LS - all received votes when they could have gone to macroslot.

Post 141 caught my attention, seemed like a softball question to Malee, could be a bit of coaching.

What I really don't like, and this is what makes me think kortul is scum, is voting LS at D1 deadline. LS was his strongest town read most of the day and the first time he said anything negative was when he voted him in that post at deadline. Actually he said he couldn't decide between his scum reads so he trusted his town read and sheeped nacho. That could be an attempt to distance from the decision.

D2 is different, as fishy pointed out, but a lot can change after talking with scum partners overnight. Started out voting macro, switched to DCLX at one point, then back to macro at deadline. Kortul does not get credit here for setlling on macro at a key time, or at least it has to be analyzed in the context of not settling on macroslot at ANY time on D1. Being on the macro lynch on D2 does not excuse D1 is what I'm saying. I mean an easy explanation is that kortul decided he didn't want to risk avoiding macro 2 days in a row and/or just decided D2 was the time to bus.

786 was a post that stuck out to me on D2: "@Macro - thank you for the explanation." - seems odd to be thanking the player you're voting and had though was scum the whole game.

I think kortul fits pretty damn well with macroscumpartner

vote: kortul

[Rhinox]

if he's going to deviate from "bus Macro" to put the first vote on DCL, why come back to the Macro wagon when things get interesting? That's the bit I can't really reconcile with kortulscum.

at the time he moved his vote back, he and macro were the only 2 votes on DCLX. Counterwagon failed? And do you really want to be pushing a counterwagon with your scum partner?

Also at the time DDD was L-1. MAYBE - and this is a theory - kortul votes macro and expects macro to hammer DDD, then macro is not lynched and kortul doesn't have to bus and maybe some day takes the town cred down the road saying "see I wanted macro lynched here not DDD".

But then DDD claims and fishy you unvote and DDD wagon starts to fall apart. Kortul doesn't post again the rest of the day. No choice left but to leave his vote on the bus and hope DCLX wagon goes through without his vote. It almost did.

It fits.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, don’t tell me about voting town reads near deadline, just look at yourself and fishy.

bzzzzzzzzzt!

Where was my vote at deadline? oh right. hammering macro. Don't even try to compare my vote on DCLX with your vote on LS, because its not the same at all.



@voided: your votes both go to your target you can't split them and you don't have to say vote x2 or anything like that.

[Rhinox]

oh shit didn't realize its been that long since I posted

Will probably have to get caught up in the morning. we'll see how long I feel like sitting at the comp this evening.

[Rhinox]

Thank you for your post. It was both useful and informative.

fuck you too I was prodded that was my acknowledgement. Piss off.

[Rhinox]

Sincerely hope that this was a drunkpost.

It was. Apparently drunken Rhinox has no tolerance for snark.

[Rhinox]

The difference between him and fishy really is that fishy flipped his read on macro to town. Not a safe move for scum to do if macro got lynched.

This is a good point but SA basically did the same thing, and I don't want to dismiss both SA and fishy as scum suspects for flipping on macro.

Rhinox: Just because you hammered scum doesn't mean that can't be suspect.

Just pointing out that my vote on DCL is not the same as kortul's vote on LS. Kortul settled on a town read when both lynches were viable. I had an internal struggle that had me temporarily move my vote to DCL in a lapse of judgement, but I ended up with my vote in the right spot (not right because it was on scum, right because I went with my reads). I'm also considering the rest of kortuls play, where multiple times he found reasons to NOT vote macro's slot. He gave reasons today for that but the reasons don't matter. Scum are supposed to find reasons to vote town instead of their partners.

If it helps people understanding my thinking at the end of the day yesterday, I heard people suggesting me as a scum partner to DCL and I think I got a little spooked. I started thinking what if I was wrong about funky/DCL all along, and I was worried if macro got lynched and was town, then DCL would probably be next, and if DCL was scum I could be mislynched for whatever connection ppl were seeing after that at a bad time if not lylo still very late in the game where mislynches hurt more. I looked at the wagons, I saw people I have called or suspected as scum all game (at the time) on the macro wagon, and I saw town reads (again, at the time) on the DCL wagon. So I paniced and voted DCL. But where my play differs from kortul is that I eventually decided to trust my own reads and live with the consequences if I was wrong. That was what the whole "I'll probably regret this" sentiment was for.

I agree that it's not the same. You put your town read to L-1. I put my scum read to L-1. You made a correct choice after that, but that doesn't amend your previous votes.

Yeah same as just because you are explaining now after the fact that LS went from strong town to null to scum doesn't amend that nothing you posted in thread shows this progression, it just came out of left field the post you voted him.

Yeah here we go in [post]353[/post] LS unvotes alice and votes funky. You are saying now and when you voted that is when you started doubting your LS read and moved him to null. But you didn't say anything then. In fact, in [post]371[/post] you moved your vote right on to funky from alice as well. That is not consistent with the belief that LS moving away from alice made you suspect him.

Thank you for your post. It was both useful and informative.

So snark aside, what bothers me about this post is that you had all day D2 to berate me for not posting content. Your choice to snipe at me now seems to coincide with you getting some attention and votes, and the irony of it all is that I'm actually providing content today. I'm having a hard time not reading this as "annoyed scum".

I'm trying to work out your math gymnastics in [post]1072[/post]. I'm not working under any assumption other than that there are 2 scum in {kortul, SA, fishy, magua}. DCL is not even in my assumption. And I'm going to lynch who I think is scum, not who I think will provide the most information if they're town.

First case is DCL scum - after DDD and 4nx become invalid lynch targets and DCL wagon started rolling rhinox scum had to join it, waited for his partner claim, and then decided which sacrifice would benefit scum most. Second case is DCL town, and fishy scum - rhinox scum joined the wagon, but after the claim decided that 3 scum on the same wagon is too much and had to switch. So while he is in my town pool, when doing ISO on DCL and fishy i will watch for possible connections with rhinox.

Both scenarios are dumb. If I'm scum with DCL and macro, I did not have to join the DCL wagon, and I did not need a claim from DCL to decide which lynch would be more beneficial to me-scum. Second scenario I would see BEFORE placing my vote on DCL that 3 scum on the same wagon was too much if that is what I would have been thinking.

During day 3 i got an impression that he believes that his hammer on Macro removes any suspicions from him, i find this reaction strange.

No see above. I was pointing out that you actually lynched your town read. While I may have voted my town read, I did NOT lynch my town read.

[Rhinox]

I also realize at some point I will need to make a decision on fishy/magua - right now its obv there is not 2 scum there, but I'm still trying to figure out if it could be town v town.

[Rhinox]

But let's explore this. You think that I'm scum getting some attention and some votes, and that my response is to derail the only other wagon of note (kortul), and to piss you off in the bargain?

Probably part knee-jerk reaction due to the snark. But I don't see anything wrong with that in the hypothetical Magua-Kortul scum pair scenario. That it pisses me off wouldn't be a consideration if you're trying to spark a counterwagon. An annoyed, OMGUSy reaction from me might actually help that goal from your POV.

Did you read it carefully?

Apparently not. But thats a straw man. The point stands that your posts do not show an evolving read of LS, it is just the explanation you are giving to explain the vote.

I was looking for something contradicting your explanation for icing on the cake.

Those scenarios are dumb if you plan in advance. With 8 hours to deadline, seeing 2 wagons halted by claims, they are not dumb. You even said in the very same post that you panicked, though explanation for this reaction is beyond me. If you are town you shouldn't be worrying and panicking because of connections with those who are lynched, you should be worrying who is more likely to be scum.

:shrug: I don't really have anything to say about this that doesn't devolve into "what I would do" as scum statements and theory discussion. I don't think DCL is scum and fishy is probably 50/50 at best, so I'm not really worried about your theories.

I also don't see much a point of you making those theories as scum unless fishy or DCL is your partner. You're not gonna get me lynched from an associative tell unless the player I'm linked to is scum. hmmmmmmm.

[Rhinox]

you would notice that my LS read didn't change in one moment, though apparently you were just skimming.

no that I still haven't seen and I've looked for it like 3 times. Closest I found was in 591 you said you were rereading and working on macro and Last, but no indication that your read was changing. Everything before that is all pro-LS. After that in 613 is the only stuff I found you said negative about LS and its the same post you voted him.

Oh here this:

Lastsurvivor. For a long time this was my strongest town read.

I had some doubts after his switch from Alice

- i still don't see why admitting that points are valid makes Alicewondering less scummy.

And here comes a case from Nacho. It shed new light on that Alice switch

, and brought into focus some older things, but i still wasn't convinced that Last is scum after rereading. His answer to my question was good and consistent with my read on him.

Thats what prompted me to go look for how you acted after he unvoted alice. Seemed like these were your own doubts (bolded), and not doubts from nacho's case since you reference that separately (itallics).

OK so 548 is where you first start finding LS maybe scummmy then. Maybe. It reads kinda like a feeler. Anything else I'm missing that shows your read on LS was changing?

I'll take some time and think on it and consider other options.

unvote

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox, DDD: what do you think of my argument with Magua? I'd value your opinion on whether he looks like scum in it.

To me it

looks

like town on town, but I think by POE that one of you are probably scum.

If anyone wants to ask questions to help me get involved again, shoot.

I don't really like your vague reads. Can you explain specifically why your town reads are town and your scum reads are scum? At this point of the game, should be able to do that.

DDD- no other reason he's town other than his claim?

Void- probably mason, you know that right?

[Rhinox]

You know I keep seeing Rhinox's name in the browsing list over the last two days and I keep expecting him to break this inertia we've got going and yet, nothing.

Yeah after I lost confidence in kortul-scum I really hit a wall. I'd be fine with an SA lynch. I keep thinking I should try to work something out with fishy vs magua but I have a feeling it might as well come to a coin flip there to me. I guess I'd probably lean towards voting magua but not enough where I want to make that choice today. I want to believe hiplop is town for voting macro but I really don't like his coasting and the fact that everyone seems to be ok with it. DCL and voided are town. You're probably town. That leaves SA, I'm not entirely sold on the case, but POE combined with him being unable to come up with an option better than himself leads me to be ok with the lynch.

He's at L-1 now? I'm prepared to hammer. If he's got any last words or a claim, now'd be a good time to hear it.

[Rhinox]

proddodge while waiting for SA...

[Rhinox]

Well he's probably not lying about not having time. I mean, I had to go all the way back to April 5th in his profile to find a post anywhere on site outside this game.

But... I'm noticing a lot of similarities between SA's last 10 posts or so and how I played the last time I was scum. I really was busy then too, but I made lots of "I don't know who's scum and I haven't had time to figure it out yet" posts, and I even gave half finished reads posts on players, similar to SA #1167. I know my own self-meta on how I've played as scum is about as useful to determining SA's alignment as, well, something really un-useful like this shitty metaphor I guess. But its not going to make me not hammer is what I'm trying to say.


I'm a little concerned about the complacency in this lynch though. I think magua's "fake hammer" gambit was definitely town motivated, and I was annoyed all-but-conf-town-voided was right there to shut it down before SA has a chance to react. I mean, I guess scum-magua could hypothetically make the move to set scum partner SA up to fake a town reaction to being hammered but meh... If he wanted to save SA it'd be less risky to do it by not actually voting him. I generally thought alice was town as well, but retrospectively the way she sheeped me and voted hiplop looks bad. But I think page 15 is about the time where I considered alice town for good. And now that we know theo's alignment, I don't think his flipflopping read on alice is something that would signify scum partners.


I'm still suspicious about the absence of hiplop, but its been nearly 48hrs since his last prod so maybe we're getting a replacement there soon? Regardless, no one else but me seems very concerned about it so :shrug:

Mod: did hiplop pick up his prod?

Currently reevaluating whether I still believe DCL is town. Day's 1 and 2 up to being the counterwagon to macro-scum all still look solid town to me. I read funky as town. If by some chance he is scum, that would make him a scum counterwagon to scum macro. Starting with D3, the flip from 979 to 999 (iso 45-46) seems a bit extreme, which was already noticed by magua and explained so nothing more to add there. Putting kortul at L-2, asking for a claim. I don't really have a problem with either of that. I don't really get when the whole "only someone threatening to hammer is allowed to ask for a claim" BS started around the site here. I am wondering though why up til that point in the day DCL had been ignoring SA after listing him as one of 2 scum suspects in his first post of the day. Actuallt skimming the rest of DCL's iso he doesn't talk about SA at all after his first post of the day until he's ready to hammer in #1135, and as far as I can tell, the only reasoning he's ever given for voting SA is OMGUS / because SA started the cw on him.

So I guess for a tl;dr: Not as impressed with DCL's D3, but I'm still thinking he's town based on D1/D2 stuff with him and funky.


Taking a first glance at fishy iso, mostly skimming because there is a lot there. Very early stuff (iso 4, 5, and 6 ish) I was looking at him sideways (my natural unsurpressed response to anyone voting me when I know they're wrong). I didn't like the whole "Rhinox joking around a lot may be a scum tell let me check meta" followed by "well thats really not a good scumtell for rhinox but here's something else vote: rhinox" exchange that went on, but it was way early and ever since fishy got a town read on me in 56 he's been calling me town ever since, which is probably more a sign of townfishy than scumfishy. 174 is interesting in light of malee/macro scum. That was the "Malee flaked maybe we should just lynch her" comment. Could have been distancing / for town cred. I don't think if I made that statment I'd be thinking anyone would actually take it seriously and lynch someone who's being replaced. In 203 he admits it was only semi-serious.

I'm looking at the section of fishy's iso where he votes theo in 390, then unvotes 404 after macro replaces in, then votes macro again in 451 putting him at L-1 asking for claim/lynch/etc, then unvotes to think about the "non-VT" claim, then votes again after deciding macro was still scummy and "non-VT" was unacceptable as a claim and asks for a full claim, then unvotes after the VT claim. I'm trying to decide if all that makes sense with fishy as a scum partner, and I'm thinking probably not, but I don't know if I really know why I think so.

Skimming through the rest of fishy iso - nothing to complain about. Doesn't really look like scum to me.


Right now I'm kinda thinking magua vs fishy is town-town which has me back to SA+kortul for scum by POE, with hiplop as the bonus choice.

SA has about 24hrs to say something useful, or I'm hammering tomorrow morning.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, this time you are coming to the wrong conclusions using POE, but since our views on certain events are different, i don't see how to show this atm.

Which events?

[Rhinox]

hmmm... feeling kinda stuck now.

[Rhinox]

SA: if you'd have been paying attention, you'd see we've already talked about my end of D2 derping. Why don't you give me your thoughts on what I and other have already said about it, since if I rehash it again someone might say I'm overjustifying.

In that whole post, you didn't say anything about why any of that is scummy.

[Rhinox]

also

going to be V/LA until sunday/monday

[Rhinox]

Back from v/la.

Just in time to:

vote SA

[Rhinox]

OK good we're getting another scumflip.

[Rhinox]

Yeah as much as I'd love to take the town points for my end of day comment I'm not going to. Pretty sure I've seen a nearly similar scenario where scum made a comment just like that but it was a long time ago and don't ask me to go dig up the game. Aside from me being town and knowing a guilty is a lie, it should have been clear to anyone that if SA really had a guilty he wouldn't have waited until after he was lynched to claim it. And a cop in a mini with masons? come on.. I didn't make the comment to look town, I was just playing along to keep conversation going during twilight, see if anything came of it. Didn't really expect anything.


Gonna have to look into voided now that he's not 4nx's mason partner.


I was thinking about the 2 reactions to SA's guilty claim overnight. Scum would know the guilty was a lie, but they'd probably be hoping that there was some mechanic like an insane cop or miller that would lead to me getting lynched. I didn't like voided's response because he seemed to just accept the claim without thinking about it, no questions asked. Especially the justification "That explains why Rhinox would hammer without a claim" - How does that explain it? Considering I could have hammered days before when SA was sitting at L-1 and I was threatening to hammer. Kortul's response is better. He continued prodding SA for as much information as possible before twilight ended. Not sure its a pure town only comment, but if I were choosing between DCL and kortul I'd say DCL's comment was more likely to come from scum.


DCL: fishy and magua? You really think that makes any sense?

[Rhinox]

Well, that does explain why rhinox would hammer without a claim.

This is the guy you want, not me.

yeah just mixed up names in my head I had it right by the end of the post

Fishy/magua, or Fishy/kortul are the only remaining possibilities. I think that actually does make sense.

And how does this pissing match thats been going on b/w fishy and magua fit into it? Its all an act?

[Rhinox]

I don't think I have enough setup experience to say whether 3 masons is OP with the Last Will mechanic. If I had to guess I'd say its not. Looking through the past LW games, town won LW3 which was a mini and no masons (but had a cop). Scum won LW2 but it was a large so not really relevant here. I can't find LW1 and the search function doesn't seem to be doing what its supposed to be doing .

But I think whats more telling is that both flipped masons passed votes to voided, and a quick ctrl+f scan of all 3 of their isos doesn't show me anything that contradicts the claim.

I don't know if a scum mason is something we should be worried about as this is a theme game and not under the normalcy rules. Probably should have asked 4nx if allignments were confirmed when he first claimed.

Nevermind that actually was answered by 4nx.

I think probably voided is a mason.

[Rhinox]

What do you guys think about massclaiming today? Maybe it could give us something to talk about.

[Rhinox]

I've never really been convinced that DDD's role is a role only town would have.

Massclaim might not give us anything but I don't think it can hurt us, so we might as well have everything out in the open. And if it does give us something to talk about that'd be great because this game is in a huge rut.

[Rhinox]

Mind starting things off?

I don't mind

I am a no special power vanilla townie.

If we're popcorning, Magua can go next.

[Rhinox]

namely that scum won’t be all on or off a wagon; violations of that principle happened exceedingly rarely in my dataset whether there be two scum or three (didn’t look at large games). Given my other assumptions this really makes rhinox stand out on that D1 vote count.

Well your assumptions are wrong somewhere.

What are the reasons you're clearing fishy I couldn't find them in your iso?

First thing is more numbers and while rhinox promises more content in his first post on D3 and he does provide it compared to his non-existance at the end of D2 he’s still under the average in terms of posts and a quick check says I had more posts than him and I’m never a paragon of activity.

Why is my activity level an alignment tell?

Why is my activity level compared to your activity level an alignment tell?

966 is IIoA

One post of "information" does not make it IIoA. It makes it IMWA - Information Mixed with Analysis. IIoA is only a scumtell if there more information than analysis, thus the name Information

instead of analysis

. If 966 was ammended as part of my 965 for example, you wouldn't be crying IIoA. This is a big reach.

977 pulls the same “don’t give me town points for that” that I mentioned earlier today

Fine you've repeated this enough now and backed it up with a vote where I want you to explain why this is at all a scumtell. If someone is trying to call me town for what I feel is a bad reason I'm going to point it out because it could be scum trying to buddy me. I don't get how it makes any sense that why I as scum would have any need or desire to double up on town points by refusing to accept town points. If people are thinking I'm town, then I don't need to keep trying to fabricate more reasons for those same people to think I'm town if I'm scum.

1060 he gets caught having gone several days without posting again, next two posts are prod talk, <snip> he goes missing again for several days on end

Back to why is my activity a scumtell?

his kortul read apparently falls apart

It did. Did you read any of that conversation between me and kortul? Because the way you throw in

apparently

makes it seem like a arbitrarily stopped pursuing kortul, or that my read shouldn't have fallen apart. What are you trying to say here?

I can’t blame him for his V/LA but I’m having a hard time squaring the fact that he was ready to hammer in 1122 on 5/18; he has one wall post that doesn’t really move the game at all before hammering anyways in 1233 on 5/28. I mean if you’re going to delay things shouldn’t you make use of that time somehow instead it just looks like he’s waiting for a different wagon to emerge or someone else to hammer to keep himself off the wagon.

1183 was all I had for the end of the day, unless SA had some revelation to make. I wasn't sure he was scum, it was mostly a POE thing like I said. A few people were requesting that time be given for SA to say something. I was giving that time. After my ultimatum in 1183 SA made posts that mostly focused on him thinking I'm scum - yeah thats not really going to convince me not to hammer him. But before I could hammer people unvoted to where I could no longer hammer. 1207, 1221, 1223 and my V/LA he was all the way back to L-3. First opportunity to hammer him after I heard what he had to say and decided it was BS, I hammered. I did make use of the time - Just because you don't like 1183 doesn't mean I didn't take time to read some iso's and reaffirm my reads. What do you think I should have been doing during that time? I can't just magically fabricate some revelation thats going to change the way I was thinking about people. What is the scum motivation in giving time for SA to post some thoughts, and not hammering earlier before he could post thoughts, if I'm scum and know he was town?

[Rhinox]

it’s that anyone under contributing is more likely to be scum for that fact. And I’m just using myself as a baseline to demonstrate the point.

OK. I'll use hiplop as a baseline to demonstrate the point then.

town behavior is to accept the benefits handed to you

Well this is where we disagree. Why wouldn't scum just want to accept false benefits being handed to them as well? What makes scum more likely screw you're benefits, over town saying hey that doesn't really mean I'm town?

I know if I dug through my bookmarks I could find a few examples of town turning away town read benefits, and I can't think of a time I remember scum doing it.

You’re a smart player rhinox and yet you didn’t consider: why is the guy I’m saying I’m willing to hammer still calling me out as scum?

*thereslotsofpossibilitiesrhetoric*

There were four RL days between your first threat to hammer and 1183. And you say you needed the time to read ISOs and reaffirm reads, but those are things you can do over night as well; the only thing you need day for is to interact with other players and you didn’t do that.

Yeah the 4 days was the time SA requested in order to have time to post content, and others requested he be given. I gave the ultimatum in 1183 after SA's promised timeframe for content was up. Then SA posted and someone unvoted out of hammer range.

I didn't need the time for anything. I gave the time because others asked for it, and I used the time to make sure I was still happy to hammer SA.

References: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4054810 and http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4054912

Do you think they made good use of the time?

You still haven't told me what I should have been doing with that time?

Also:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4054202 - why do you have a stick up your ass about me not hammering SA but you haven't mentioned this at all?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My POE scum suspects today are kortul and Magua.

I still don't think DCL is scum.

I don't think fishy is scum either, but it makes me a bit nervous that there are quite a few scenarios where fishy could be buddying me.

If voided is not a mason and ends up being scum hiplop gets a smack upside the head after the game for both not correcting us for assuming he was mason AND THEN giving his vote to voided. I think voided is town. I can imagine a theory where 4nx didn't actually send his vote to his mason partner, and that hiplop didn't say anything because it would be revealed sooner or later that voided wasn't the mason partner, and that hiplop didn't actually send his vote to voided but it was a scum role that sent the vote there. But... Just a crazy theory I'm not putting any stock in.

DDD - I've never been 100% convinced he was town. He was one of my early suspects, but I thought he was more likely town for his pursuit of macro D1 and D2. I didn't think his claim was a strong tell either way. Part of the reason that went into me being ok with lynching SA was how he called DDD town only because of his claim. I asked SA about it in 1107 and never got an answer.

Ever since DDD's claim I've been mulling over a theory I can't prove. My comments around the time of DDD's claim should shed some light into what I was thinking. see: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4025010 - the post DDD singled out as IIOA.

The first thing I thought after DDD's claim was, "I wonder if DDDscum would claim/use that ability on a dead scum partner to get macro's vote over to the other scum partner indirectly." DDD's and Magua's comments fed into my thinking:

I was expecting to find myself or DCL on the bottom of Macrophage’s list and hand a vote to a town aligned player; instead Magua was apparently at the bottom who I consider more of a question mark.

Oh, man, I thought I had been given the vote by scum in order to watch the WIFOM and for scum to try to get me lynched.

DDD says outright that he expected town to be at the bottom of scum wills, but that magua was a question mark (distancing should magua flip scum later?), and Magua basically says he expected scum would be at the top of scum wills, and acts relieved that he was at the bottom of macro's will. Neither of them were in the previous LW games, so if thats the thought process they expected town to have, then I can see DDD's claim being a plausible one for scum to make.

The problem is that its also perfectly logical for town with that ability to use it on dead scum. And with everyone calling DDD town, I kinda set aside my theory due to okham's razor. But with masons (especially if 3) a will manipulation role for scum isn't out of the question. And if DDD and magua are scum, DDD didn't actually have to use his ability then, just say he did, to make us think magua was at the bottom of macro's lynch instead of the top.

:shrug:

I think everyone's claimed now right? All VT except for DDD and voided? This game does kinda have the feel of a PR-light game. 3 masons vs. 1-shot scum will flipper? 3 masons + town will flipper vs. scum ???

The jist of it is... I'm just not confident in my reads, and I don't know how to get more confident because I don't know what questions to ask. Kinda at the point where everything's been talked about and its time to pick a side, but I'm not sold on the case for any side.

When these are the attitudes of townies and likely townies under threat of lynch:

Rhinox: Macro prob isn't scum. Lynch either DDD or I today. I'd prefer DDD, obviously, but I think my lynch is inevitable at this point.

Just to be clear, I don't intend on voting macro or DDD wagons just to save myself from getting lynched as I think they are town.

I have a day off from work tomorrow (maybe), so let me try and find a little while to figure this game out. After that, hammer away.

...it makes it kinda hard to not feel a little apathetic.

[Rhinox]

idk... I read through his iso a couple times, half of the day was me arguing with him. I don't really see anything distinctly town in those parts. He posted quite a bit in support of his DCL case. I've read through it a couple times now, it seems well thought out and logical and don't really see anything wrong with it, the problem is it causes me headaches because it conflicts my internal townread of DCL...

fdsjakbdfscdascfhil.. Someone has to be town...

[Rhinox]

Isn't it 3 masons vs. will flipper+1-shot VCop or 3 masons+will flipper vs. 1-shot VCop?

oh right derp That being the case the Vcop balances the masons and the role flipper seems like it would make scum too OP since all we have are the masons. So move DDD back up to town.

[Rhinox]

Magua:

If DDD is scum with macro, what do you make of the whole claiming to flip macro's will with the secretary role to give you macro's vote?

[Rhinox]

Not really sure how the two are related other than they both vaguely involve hammers; care to explain?

Because no one else as far as I know threatened to hammer.

?

I said I was willing to hammer SA. Shortly after, DCL said he was willing to hammer SA. Whats the difference? Why am I scum for it but you haven't mentioned anything about DCL saying pretty much the same thing?

[Rhinox]

I'm starting to read kortul as town now. He's clearly putting a lot of thought into the analysis he's been doing the last several pages, and I can't find reasons to disagree with his conclusions.

Going by Mag's option three (which is that Macro was bussed and went down for towncred), Rhinox actually seems to be better tailored for this, which sucks because of how sure of a town read I have on him.

My vote on DCL doesn't make sense with me bussing macro for town cred.



I'm starting to consider whether I could believe DCL to be scum. I'm going to have to reread him and funky without my town-confirmation-bias tinted glasses.


I think odds are in favor of DDD and magua having the same alignment due to DDD's claim. If DDD is scum, I think the claim is meant to give magua townpoints since the most natural thought is that scum would place town players on the bottom of their will - namely those who they would least like to have another vote. If DDD is town, then Magua really was at the bottom of macro's will for a reason, either by conscious choice, or because he was last on the playerlist and wasn't moved - both scenarios point to town on a scum's will.

If they're both town, that would make the remaining scum... DCL + fishy? I need to really think about that...


I'm so useless this game...

[Rhinox]

Gonna be V/LA starting the 14th ending the 19th

Not voting Kortul today. But I have no idea what to do.



ugh effort, find your motivation.

OK, starting from the top with malee...

RVS vincent - useless info
First real target - nacho... useless info
4nx calls malee worse than nacho in the interaction - useless info
malee immediately unvotes and acts confused when I question her about her nacho vote
Vincent says malee's unvote post feels fake, malee appeases vincent - useless info
Malee flakes...

Malee's iso tells me nothing.

Theo's iso:

#273:
-LS asks for a reads list, theo is "happy to oblige" and commits amished tell (apparently).
-Reads:

fishy: Wishy washy read, points out 2 posts that "leave a bad taste", but otherwise town (no elaboration on what makes him think town or why)

Nacho: short comment, no read either way. Big difference from the wishy washy read on fishy.

Rhinox: definitive town read.

SA: scum read, with examples. Calls out SA for voting fishy with little explanation. Other example doesn't seem relevant.

4nx: null read, compares 4nx's play here to a similar game when 4nx was town and feels its the same here but isn't sure.

LS: Definitive town read.

Hiplop: "slightly scummy mainly because of the wavering around on votes / who he thinks is scummy."

Alice: "Probably town." - nothing else said about it.

Kortul: leaning town but feels like less to go on since kortul is a replacement.

DDD: leaning scum for his vote on nacho and defense buddying of hiplop

vincent: null read, nothing more

funky: not enought to go on, not many posts, and doesn't add much to the game.


If I order his list:

town

LS

Rhinox

probably town

alice/magua

leaning town

Kortul

null/no read

fishy*

nacho

4nx

vincent/voided

funky/DCL

leaning scum

Hiplop

DDD

scum

SA

First thought on this being... fuck. I expect scum to spread their partners out in their reads, and all of us are spread out from top to bottom.

But I think there is something there. I expect for 1 partner to be in the null reads for sure. Its the perfect place to place a partner because it lets you go either way later on. That points to at least one of fishy or DCL being scum.

I feel like theo's alice read (or lack thereof) could possibly point to magua being scum. His kortul read ("town, but...") does not feel like a comment a scum would say about his partner, it reads more like theo wanted to leave an out to reverse a town read later on. His DDD read is all scum stuff, not "scum, but...". He doesn't leave himself wiggle room to change his mind later. Very similar to his reads on hiplop and SA, who were both town.

Based on these reads, I think the scum are in group {magua, fishy, DCL}. I want to think that magua and fishy can't be scum together based on their 1v1 earlier on, but I've noticed that neither of them have been pushing each other very hard since then. I can't rule out that it was all a crossbussing act to give one of them town cred.

#293:
Fishy asks theo to explain his 4nx and alice reads. Going back to fishy #276, fishy criticizes theo's read on him about it being bad that fishy wanted to quicklynch malee. Fishy says... "What would I be hoping to achieve as scum by saying that? Your lynch? Town cred in some obscure way?" - its interesting because a) yes fishy probably would have got town cred for that lynch considering malee was scum, and b) theo had to respond carefully because of (a) to not claim scum.

Theo's response: "To me it always feels a bit off when people call for a quick lynch on someone who isn't there to answer." - just kinda dismisses it and thats all thats said about it from either party I do believe.

Fishy likes theo's catchup post. :shrug:

Theo's responses to fishy's questions:

4nx read clarification - just talks about meta and how he just finds 4nx's playstyle scummy even when he's town. - doesn't help with anything.

Alice read clarification - calls alice "the voice of reason". "She seems to be analysing what others are posting and to try to help others think through their ideas (for example post 148). I can't see scum doing this." - hmmm... is this something scum would say about a scum partner? I don't know...

Also in 293:
-Argues with LS about his malee comments and his hiplop read - doesn't seem like anything useful now
-Argues with kortul about his SA and 4nx reads, and why he didn't vote yet.
-Asks DDD to clarify the amished tell.
-Comments something about some SA post I honestly can't figure out now and don't think its relevant anyways.

Post #318:
-Defends his stance about defending malee's actions. Calls out LS, Alice, and SA.
-Oh right, the infamous flip on alice, because alice asked for reads from malee's replacement, and then didn't comment on them afterwords. Votes alice over all previous scum reads, then vanishes forever.

I feel like this could be one of 2 things:

1) Desparation and flailing after being pressured, and makes a rash decision to bus alice, then flakes upon seeing that the move was met with more negativity.
2) After being called out for not voting, he wanted to put a vote down, but for some reason didn't want to vote anyone he previously called scum. Most of the playerslist was below alice in his reads, but of the 3 he had in the scum catagories, 2 are now confirmed town, and the last is DDD. Not voting a scum read to protect a scum partner he placed in his scum reads doesn't make sense because it would have to be DDD, but he could have voted SA or hiplop who he also called scum but were town. I think more likely this signifies that all his scum reads were town, and he didn't want to be the one pushing a wagon on town.

What bothers me a little is that alicewagon was getting a little momentum at the time. But looking at the VC, theo was only the second vote on that alice wagon. I can't tell if it was a bus, or a move to a mislynch wagon with momentum.



And thats all from theo



I'm not really up for giving macro's iso the same treatment right now, but tbh I don't think the info there will be as good. Macro was an alt, and seemed a bit more saavy than his predecessors, so will have been better at covering his tracks. Just the whole claim situation already tells me that my ideas on what scum would and wouldn't do don't really apply to macro.

tl;dr

malee and theo's play (mostly theo) point to scum being in a group of {magua, fishy, and DCL}. This lines up with my recent thinking that kortul and DDD are likely town, and voided being prob-mason. I had hoped to find something that narrowed down my thinking when I started so I'm a little about doing all this and still being in exactly the same position I was before I started, but now that I've wrote it all up I feel compelled to post it anyways.

I'm heading to the gym for a little while now but after I return I'll focus on those 3 and figuring out who to vote for. Based on recent comments it seems like the lynch today will come down to magua vs. DCL

[Rhinox]

Look back at funky/DCL slot (only commenting on the interesting and relevant stuff this time):

-Random votes Malee - as scum I tend to avoid RVS voting my scum partners but idk if this is a general tell either way.

-Alice made a comment: "If Malee flips scum, LS becomes scummier." Funky questions why Alice thinks that. - I would think here, if funky was scum with malee, and knew LS was town, and especially if alice is town, scum would really like it if townies were finding connections between a townie and a scum. So my first instinct is that this is not a comment scum would likely make. But its possible funkyscum wanted to make alice look bad in the eventual event of LS flipping town, or its possible funky just asked the question as either alignment to attempt to contribute independant of the alignment of anyone involved. I found it a good question at the time and stage of the game, part of the reason I found funky to be town.

aside: that comment from alice looks like it could be from scum trying to set up a connection between a townie and a scum partner.

-This comment:

To me, it looks like this wagon on Malee is sort of forced; there is no relevant reason for her to be scum more than anyone else. LS's argument is based on pandering, which I find not to be a valid scumtell Day 1. However, I respect other people's opinions, and if this behavior continues from Malee, it will be very hard to dig out of the hole she created for herself.

Has been brought up before and I agree it looks bad. It reminds me of a comment I made towards my IC scumpartner in my very first game ever on site.

-I dislike how funky went from "Nachomamma is scum. I can't see any other possibility." to "Nacho managed to provide a decent explanation for his behavior; I find it believable." I think I remember asking funky why he didn't vote nacho despite him being his only scum read and a strong one at that as indicated by his read. He said he was waiting for an answer. :shurg: with nacho town idk what to make of this.

The rest of Funky's reads don't stick out to me either way.

-This:

Agreed. Also, sloppy play is NOT a scumtell on day 1 when you have no adequate way to defend yourself.

Is also another defense of malee. Its a response to a nacho comment regarding not being able to tell the difference between scum play and sloppy play with malee or something like that.

I think I mentioned this before but what gives me pause is the last game I played with funky we were scum partners (lost in the crash), and he mostly ignored me in game, and at one point he bussed me ruthlessly just before the crash. I had made a mistake but its not like I was obviously scum at that point, there were still some townies having doubts. But I'm just pointing out that his treatment of malee doesn't really match the meta I have on how funky treats his scum partners.

But looking back now, the earlier comment about digging out of the hole does look very bad, and knowing this was D1 and malee was a scum PR, it makes sense somewhat to try to protect the scum pr.

Thats about it from funky. There is the vote on alice for "horrible, inconsistent reads", and then him threatening to hammer theo despite not saying anything about theo's play and his defense of malee. Then he vanishes.

Knowing that funky doesn't have a problem bussing when a scum partner wagon has momentum, I wonder about these last 2 acts. If I remember right, alice wagon had some momentum when funky popped in to vote. And theo was L-1 when funky threatened to hammer (why didn't he just hammer? because theo was still a scum PR?).

Of the rest of us living, he called me, kortul, and vincent/voided all town, and he didn't say anything at all about fishy or DDD.

Based on the iso, I could see a DCL/Magua scum team as being plausible due to potential bussing of alice when her wagon has momentum, as well as DCL/fishy for a complete absence of fishy from anything funky had to say.

I think another thing points to funky as possible scum - at one point I called him town for meta, and he disagreed and said he hated playing as scum. Then later on he flakes out. Based on his own comments I think he would be more likely to flake out as scum then as town, but I still have a problem with the meta I have on him because he played a very good scum game and didn't flake out

Breaking here to post this before moving on to DCL..

[Rhinox]

DCL replaces in for funky.

-first actions: asks to delay a macro hammer so he can catch up, unvotes alice, and votes LS before reading the whole thread.

I have no meta of DCL so only *textbook* thinking to go on. Asking to delay a macro hammer seems like something scum-DCL would do knowing macro was a scum PR. Unvoting alice with no commentary as to why fits with DCL/alice pairing. Voting LS without reading the thread - well he said he based the vote on what he read through the first 4 pages but his disclaimer made it sound like the vote was a placeholder and likely to change after reading the whole thread. Why wasn't alice a good enough placeholder vote?

-#479: thinks macro is not that good of a lynch, thinks there are better options (doesn't supply them yet)

-First reads post:

Leaning Townish:

Rhinox

Fishythefish

hiplop

4nxi3ty

Not sure about right now:

nachomamma

Macrophage theomoaner Malee

Kortul

Vincent2128 Voidedmafia

Alicewondering Magua

Leaning scum:

Lastsurviver

Sleepless Assassin

Debonair Danny DiPietro

Same sort of deal I noticed with malee/theo, we're all pretty well spread out. DCL did place macro in the *unsure* category, the question is would he place both scum there, or would he place the other scum partner in the town or scum categories. Up to this point DCL hasn't elaborated on his reads much so I can't really say which I think yet.

This clump of comments:

-I agree that it is difficult to get a read on a replacement player. It is very easy to come in on a 20+ page game and say a lot of non-risky stuff.

-I'm not sold on the Macrophage lynch. Yes the player(s) he replaced may have acted scummy. But so far he has been fairly town from what I've read [more on that later]. I think it is more likely that he replaced a bad/inexperienced towny than that he is scum. But yeah it will be hard to find out.

-One thing that makes me hesitant about calling macro scum because the players he replaced didn't play well is that if I had been another player in the game, I would have definitely found funkybike's actions scummy...yet I now know he wasn't scum... I other words, I'm open to the possibility that the people macro replaced just sucked, as opposed to being scum.

-I'd like to see a concise summery of the case against macro.

I think could possible point to a macro/DCL connection. Its like tiptoing around knowing that the predecessors to their slots (malee, theo, and funky) were scum thus thinking so easily that those players actions were scummy. Basically the same "amished tell" that theo committed.

This is kinda an interesting post now in hindsight:

So as I was reading the game I made a chart showing who had voted who. I found the information to be very interesting.

I think this post will be very useful down the road when we get some flips.

With the following list I'm going to show how many people have voted for each person. So, the people following the person in bold will be the players who have voted for the bolded person over the course of the game.

I'm very positive this information is correct, but if I have made a mistake counting votes than please point it out

For players that have been replaced I am only using the name of the replacer most times to keep things less confusing.

9

Macrophage

Fishy,

rhinox

, DCLXVI,

4nxiety

,

voided

,

lastsurvivor

,

hiplop

, DDD, Alicewondering
9

Alicewondering

Fishy,

rhinox

,

Nacho

, DCLXVI,

anxiety

,

last survivor

,

hiplop

, kortul,

Macro

7

DCLXVI

Fishy,

Nacho

, Kortul,

Voided

,

Lastsurvivor

,

Sleepless assassin

, Alicewondering

5

Sleepless Assassin

Fishy, kortul,

lastsurvivor

,

hiplop

, Alicewondering
4

rhinox

fishy,

4nxiety, last survivor, hiplop

3

nachomama

Macro

,

hiplop

, DDD
3

Fishy

4nxiety, sleepless assassin, hiplop

3

Lastsurvivor

Nacho

, DCLXVI,

4nxi3ty

,
3

Debonair

Macro

,

Sleepless

, Alicewondering
2

hiplop

Alicewondering,

Rhinox

2

Voidedmafia

Macro

,

Rhinox

1

4nxiety

Rhinox

0

kortul

There have been three big wagons over the course of the game, Funky/DCLXVI,

Malee/theo/macro

, and Alicewondering. I wanted to see if there were similarities between these wagons.

Players that voted for all three sometime in the game 2: Fishy,

last survivor

Players that voted for at least two of the major wagons 8:

Rhinox

, DCLXVI,

4nxiety, hiplop

, Alicewondering,

nacho

, kortul,

voided

-Players voting for Funky/DCLXVI and

Malee/theo/macro

2:

Alicewondering

,

Voided

-Players voting for Funky/DCLXVI and Alicewondering 2:

Nacho

, kortul
-Players voting for

Malee/theo/macro

and Alicewondering 4:

Rhinox

, DCLXVI,

4nxi3ty, hiplop

-Players voting for just one of the wagons: DDD,

Sleepless assassin

,

Macro

-Players not involved in either of the wagons: 0

Some thoughts from all of this analysis:

-Fishy and

Last survivor

have voted for the exact same players the entire game:

Sleepless assassin

,

rhinox

, funky/DCL,

macro/theo/malee

, Alice.
----These 5 players they voted for are the top 5 wagons so far in the game.

-

Rhinox

has been involved in voting for a few people no one else has really targeted:

4nxi3ty, hiplop

,

Voidedmafia

.

-Only 3 players did not vote for

macro/theo/malee

so far:

Sleepless assassin, nachomama

, kortul.
----However, those three players were all on the funky/DCL wagon.
----Both

Nacho

and kortul were on alice.

-Only three players did not vote for Alicewondering all game:

Sleepless

,

Voided

, DDD

I'm sure some other info can be drawn from the list I made, but I'm to tired to think about it right now...I need sleep...

One thing I notice is that it seems my leading theory (macro/magua/DCL scumteam) doesn't seem to fit here. I don't see scum motivation in singling out those 3 wagons if those were the 3 scum. I'm also hesitant to believe that the 3 major wagons by that point in the game in D1 were all 3 on scum.

DCL, did you ever go back and revisit this post? you seemed to think it was going to be very valuable after some flips, and we've had them. Does any of this tell you anything now?


----------

I'm only scratching the surface on DCL iso by now, but its my gym time again. I don't know if I'll have time to finish everything I want to finish by deadline, but i'm not yet convinced enough to hammer DCL.

[Rhinox]

Hey so congrats scum not a well played game by me even though my reads were generally mostly right. Felt kinda like I was running in quicksand most of the game, I wasn't doing a good job of making convincing cases I guess. I was fooled by kortuls posting late in the game, fooled by the ol' "hey look lots of words that MUST be coming from town".