Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[projectmatt]

hi, i'll read this game soon.

is there anything important i should know about beforehand?

[projectmatt]

Spoiler: excessively long catch-up post

Ooh a Miller claim right out of the gates.

I vote to policy it.

If there absolutely has to be a policy lynch on Dave I think it would be better to be on D2. If a vig exists they can shoot Dave tonight and save us the lynch.

this post is not good.

Well that's very lazy... Lol

I'm fine with deciding on day play. Last time I shoved a policy lynch done everyone's throat. Wasnt enjoyable. I was scum but I still didn't enjoy creating such a toxic state lol.

this is town.

There are some who prefer not to hear self meta but since you asked might as well. I would say it's more accurately an aversion to gambits as any alignment.
Not claiming miller as town would be a gambit on hoping to not be investigated.
While we're on the subject of self meta and laying low, it is also true that I'm usually passive until I have a substantial lead to follow.

Okay.

Ghost

this is town.

Pedit: HUH? That wasn't my goal

Oh ok
Well i thought you were trying to go for something like that to read me even tho i claimed town, but people these days, they dont trust anyone!

yikes.

I was just looking to see if you'd act sketchy/squeamish about it...although perhaps I should've said srs vote after a few more posts cause maybe it was obv I was trying to get a reaction. Reeeee
Pedit: I trust everyone until you give me a reason not too

Nah the trick is to withhold your vote until that person makes even a mildly substantial post, then throw it down and say Serious Vote. It's a known trick but still works. The catch is that you're more likely to get reactions from other people who want to know why rather than the actual target.

Eh I just want to get out of RVS I'm hyped about this game and the talk of miller play that comes down to throwing opinions around isn't really my style. We'll get a serious vote and time I guess I just won't be the one to do it...maybe

this reads as genuine to me.

Lol. Now I'd suspect this being scum theater more so than the other thing.

i dislike posts like this. it makes people paranoid about other players without actually justifying why.

verylazy's #60-61 are town.

i was starting to scumread alchemist but they sort of redeemed themselves in #63.

VOTE: Wilky

Very very very high odds of this being scum

Why because I pointed out your mistake? I wasn't cc'ed dave hardclaimed miller first, I claimed it second.

this is town, but yikes, what a bad deflection

So we're just assuming that safe claims are given now?

Like this is SUCH an "I'm scum and didn't have fakeclaims" response.

Well it doesnt feel like that, it feels more like scum using fake claims to their advantage, but i do wonder, eh why not.
VOTE: wilky

this is not town.

manwithnoname's #97 is super bad and opportunistic.

VOTE: Ankamius

I know the "do little until later" is kind of your thing, but I would think by now you'd have at least commented on something worthwhile. So got any thoughts to share?

Yes, I don't think the miller claim conversation is going to get anywhere.

But really, I'm waiting on something specific before I start analyzing things. I want to test something.

i'm curious if this turns out to be true. also, slight townread on alchemist.

miller talk is dumbass shit lol

are you guys ready to lynch scum or not

nice

VOTE: TChill

In a sea of PR claims I trust this the last

lmfao, this is mafia, right?

i think ourbouros is town.

? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ?

Why would he just not claim it if that was an issue on his radar? Why would he ever be getting protection from investigative roles when he explicitly claimed something that doesn't require investigative roles?

You're just scum pushing a mislynch to distract from Wilky here well over 90% of the time.

VOTE: Wilky

fine, have your way

why would you do this?

Because focusing on negative utility roles is a distraction and is the kind of thing I'd expect scum to be doing if both millers were town

good post

I wish everyone townread me for effortposting and trying to gamesolve early, it would make my life so much easier.

i do.

@MariaR

What's your read/opinion on Ramcius right now? You seem to have played with them before but you popped in with the Nero vote and haven't commented on Ram's actions and wagon.

I haven't commented on Ram on purpose. I rather not speak on Ram atm if a wagon keeps going I'll comment but for now I rather shut up about him due to my own reasons.

i am also curious to see if this holds true.

I was hoping to solve this game before the weekend

Here let me help you
I'm town.

i

hate

the fact that this is working on me.

Oh GIF's not around, now that comment ended up being kinda anti climatic.
I guess I'll have to prove my townyness later.

Well, I think I know what's coming up, so, in anticipation of the Innocent Child reveal that I'm sure you are talking about.

UNVOTE:

this reads like scum-paranoia to me.

VOTE: Ventriloquist

Actually can I get team support here this intrigues me

ok, ourboros is town for sure.

VOTE: Ventriloquist

Actually can I get team support here this intrigues me

Why Ventriloquist?

He's barely a blip on my mental RADAR right now.

Wraith
Ankamius
Dunnstral
Impossibear
Ventriloquist
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

So, by the way, here is my issue with Ventriloquist vote right now. These slots all fall into the same "barely a blip on the RADAR" place.

I would like to see anything resembling actually playing the game from all these slots. Maybe Dunnstral does not belong on here.

why do you keep protecting ventriloquist??? why are you deflecting? a good way to tell if this post is sincere is whether or not manwithnoname actually tries to read/engage with dunnstral.

realmen's #408-411 is town.

I can understand the reaction to my posting, by the way. I'm just going to have to be better going forward.

I still think Realmen is the best vote at this point in time. Ventriloquist can be on notice, but Realmen has actually been scummy (I will admit again, amusing) but scummy, overall.

please tell me this slot got lynched.

Either you don't remember me as well as you think you do or you're purposely ignoring the fundamental core of how I play the game.

I sort of like this.

I don't like Ventrilo's attempt push me, i dlike Wraith's "5 scum, no faceclaim", we still have Tchill/Wilky situation, Realmen asking to be burned with the fire, hebi's sheeping is unsettling, Nero is awkwardly silent

Hm, i guess i try

VOTE: Nero

others at least are talking

ok, this might be the worst post yet.

As for TRs, i never give those, unless someone do or say something that makes them locktown in my eyes, otherwise all my TRs are subject to change

i dont have a problem with this at face value, but ramicus's reads in #462 were lazy and vague.

@ManWithNoName

- Are you scum reading Jungle for his lack of AI posts?

Ghost

I do believe that is the best way to phrase it. He reads in a way that he's not trying to game solve, he's just trying to not give away any information. That's enough to earn a scum read from me.

This sounds more like a policy lynch than a scum lynch.

Ghost

it definitely doesn't sound like that. what?

i like impossibear's #508.

i could hop on wilky wagon but i want to resolve tchill first

Here's a post that, going back, strikes me as scummy actually because of context in general. Verylazy has not offered a read on either wilky or tchill, just a desire to "resolve" tchill and a willingness to join a wagon later. I find it odd that a tchill case is not accompanied with this. I've seen scum, in the past, push a lynch without sorting anyone and line up the ability to switch lynches. I want to give a brief nod to Anonymous Ghost, hopefully without spewing too much what my main is, and say that when rereading just now, her comments in a previous game's mod thread were what sparked this idea.

VOTE: VeryLazy

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to lurking so I don't totally give away my main's identity because that's the whole point of this alt.

Anony, if you remember the game and figure it out from that, please don't tell people, I just want to continue in semi-anonymity.

i really hate this.

VOTE: verylazy

let's manwagon this eevee instead!

Verylazy is town being wagoned by scum as a counterwagon to scum!Ventriloquist

The fact that people are defending him says a lot
Impossibear comes in with 'scared of wagon speed' even though I've been hard pushing them for days and have gotten absolutely zero results from anyone.
Also the fact that the way that Jingle talked about me as coming across as town with no skill is always a scumpost.

*sigh* Didyou even attempt to understand my post? I am trying to work with you.

I read all your posts, I just didn't get the things from it that you apparently wanted. You should have just bussed Ventriloquist.

youre the only good player.

fuck off. jingle was clearly wrong about you. and i'm the one who said you had no skill. i see i was right. go away.

fuck off both of you. idiots.

towns these days are garbage. i don't know why i bother with discussion.

this is still probably town, especially with their #547, but give me a break.

pages 24-27 were a waste of time to read.

Hey Ghost, while you're here:

I'm hard-townreading your slot due to RC, but why do the posts in

your

half of the hydra feel so weird to me? Is there something about your combined play that I'm missing or am I sensing playstyle clashes?

i like this. i also like their analysis in #667.

the verylazy push feels like a deflection, and a no-information lynch. i want to read more into that wagon later.

i disagree with ourbourso's #702. they are explaining why verylazy's play isn't optimal, but i dont see a single argument for why their play makes them mafia.

You know it's a good sign for the town when players are more concerned with figuring out hydra/alt identities than scum.

Quote an example.

GiF

my vote should be on Nero

y aren't you trying to engage me or talk about my content or anything?

i would, but there's hardly anything to engage in your ISO

this is so god damn lazy.

vent's #737-742 reads like flailing scum to me. i tend to react in a similar way when i get called out as mafia, it's a mess of over-defensiveness and "look at this guy, not me!"

Not really sure why but I don't see Impossibear as particularly scummy and I think Ouro's fixation on them right now is unhealthy.

Posts like this stop me from scumreading Wraith.

On top of that, Wraith's #779 and #788 really good.

I'll be able to give you that answer in due time.

Still waiting on this.

See this is the kind of post I've been wanting. It also looks like you only refused my demands for content because you're scumreading me since you're willing to give them to Impossibear in your Town reads. Anyway, more like these please.

VOTE: Ventriloquist

I've been very cold towards your demands because of not only my initial read on you, but parts of your engagement on me reads manipulative.

This post in particular is very difficult to quantify in any sense, regardless of context from your other posts or not. It factors into my other question from you, but why did you completely drop this after spending so much of your time and effort trying to brute force info out of me?

Good post.

HEBICHAN, WHY HAVE YOU TWICE TRIED TO CREATE COUNTERWAGONS TO VENTRILOQUIST NOW?

A pertinent point.

The timing argument about Vent is actually a good point, and paired with their previous bad posts + pushes, I would be super surprised if they didn't get lynched.

Taking a break from my illness today to comment, I think Nero does not deserve to be in the lynchpool tomorrow, he got townier since I made my lynchpool.

If I'm still around tomorrow and do not get vigged, I'll probably votepark verylazy slot unless the replacement comes in and wows me.

I'm like 100% not the Scum kill, I would assume.

The fact that ManWithNoName flipped town is completely baffling to me, I was just about to tunnel on them. Yikes.

Try

VOTE: VeryLazy

Instead

This came out of nowhere, unless I'm drastically misremembering Dunnstral's posts.

guys, if you want PL lurker, lynch Wraith/Tchill, Dunn/very is just daed weight and not much info to gain from them

This post is not good.

Nah, I'll reveal it when I care enough to. Not before then.

ran out of "how to scum 101" tricks?

>"it was just a reaction test and you failed it"
>"you can never lynch me"
>"i know your team"

This post is even worse.

You know what's interesting Ank?
After Vent flipped scum one of the things that crossed my mind was to enter this game voting you.

I've been thinking about it tho, and I dont think scum quickhammers their partner in that situation, it's more likely for vent to just self-hammer, gives less information overall.

I'm not afraid to bus.

Town post.

I completely missed the boat on Wilky, and I need to ISO them.

I mean, if you don't know what I'm talking about, maybe read your own reads list.

Otherwise, its pretty obvious you're just making things up as you go along here.

This is weird. I don't like it.

The train of thought from Impossibear on Wilky and Ram is a lot like my own. Can you talk to me more about the Maria/Nero interaction? Because we're seeing opposite things there.

I'm giving Ank a few hours to deliver on that promise for content and if they don't I'm moving my vote back there.

Maybe I'm getting tunnel vision, but considering Ank did come back with a flood of posts about an hour and a half after this one from Alchemist gives me more bad vibes about Ank.

Agree with the Alchemist TR as well

Wraith is solid-town, even though I don't agree with their conclusion here.

VOTE: wilky

im just gonna sheep what seems like decent logic.

off the past few pages i agree with the reasoning behind the wilky wagon.

uhh, there was no reasoning in the last few pages about why wilky was scum, unless i missed it. this is opportunistic.

the verylazy slot is town.

the back and forth between ourbouros and dunnstral makes me think that dunnstral is scum.

This is about trading the possibility that Ramcius might get quicklynched for conftowning me.

i don't like this - you ok to trade unknown role for you becoming conftown, but you refuse to use claimed miller?

the only reason i dislike this post is because im 99% sure ramicus would not say this if he wasn't the one on the chopping block.

this post is way too long, so i'll post my thoughts/responses to the last couple of pages in another post.

[projectmatt]

Hey, projectmatt, vote Ramcius. It's not about lynching him or his alignment, but is crazy protown.

i think i missed something important about the roles in this game when i was reading. can you explain why you're having people pseudo-vote? what specifically are you testing for?

Note: no one in this game is going to vote ramcius.
if we're doing the thing we're doing it on wilky who is scum.
I feel like this game needs more angry RC since Impossibear have taken advantage of me trying to be polite this gamestate to shit all over the game and try to lock in mislynches.

As of tomorrow I'm going to start bringing out the big guns again but I give everyone the next 12 or so hours before I make my full case explaining why Impossibear isn't just stupid as fuck town, they're scum making the game as toxic as they have to in order to try to take away my leverage over the town and secure mislynches secure that when I get nightkilled not tonight but in two nights that no one will have the balls to go against them.

The existence of the role that swaps scum roles basically guarantees the existence of a godfather setup spec wise.

you're town, and you're also completely off the mark.

It stops when they replace out or die. I didn't pick this fight but I'm going to win it.

do you even want to lynch the mafia?

at the moment, my lynchpool looks like ramcius, hebichan or tchill. i need to iso a good portion of the game again because i have way too many null reads.

[projectmatt]

I say I'll answer anything truthfully, and no one asks if I'm scum. Shame. Too bad, won't answer anything from now on.

VOTE: Ram

I don't know why Ram is scummy, but I'll do it because 2 people told me to.

It's not because he's scummy, it's because there are conditions needed on a wagon for Impossibear to get confirmed as Town.

That's the short version. Would you like the long version?

Yes, Colonel Mustang. As reading 60 pages is hard, and anything in one post makes it easier.

Real Men Only Jungle has given a quest to Impossibear that can confirm Impossibear as Town if it's fulfilled.

The condition of the quest are:
-Be the 3rd vote on a wagon that reaches L-1. This must be reflected in an official vote count.
-Be the hammer on this Day's lynch.

The purpose of the Ram wagon is to satisfy the first condition. Impossibear has asked for specific slots to be on the wagon to preven an lolhammer when ot reaches L-1. They have also asked that all other players use pseudovotes in FOS form until this condition can be met.

oh, thanks for explaining

vote: ramicus

[projectmatt]

VOTE: Ouroboros
I'm done with you being anti town.

why is this game full of people actively sabotaging an easy town-victory

[projectmatt]

VOTE: Ouroboros
I'm done with you being anti town.

why is this game full of people actively sabotaging an easy town-victory

I want to lynch scum. Other scum are preventing that from happening

who is the scum that you want to lynch? is the "other scum" just impossibear?

[projectmatt]

i don't want to vote you because i have a brain

but you're playing terribly

[projectmatt]

I'm playing terribly but I was the one who fought my ass off to get scum lynched on D1.

so?

[projectmatt]

i'm not trying to antagonize you, but you have to recognize that the way you're playing today is helping absolutely nothing.

[projectmatt]

I'm trying to lynch scum, that's helping something.

If I can't lynch scum after lynching scum yesterday then town can't win so it doesn't really matter what I do does it?

i'm not going to dignify this with a response because you already know the answer

[projectmatt]

Also:

VOTE: Ouroboros
I'm done with you being anti town.

why is this game full of people actively sabotaging an easy town-victory

Because you havent had to deal with them every day since the game started.....

it seems so irrational to vote someone who is almost definitely town because you find them annoying to deal with.

[projectmatt]

@Matt - Which interaction with us made Dunn look like scum? Was it mine? If so, can you explain?

I'm biased by the fact that in less than five posts I forgot who Dunn was talking about, if that's the interaction you're referring to.

Ghost

OMG Pedit~

it was your interaction on page 57. dunn's read on ram in #1405 was blatant fence-sitting, and then he deflected your questioning of him by arguing about semantics.

Also:

VOTE: Ouroboros
I'm done with you being anti town.

why is this game full of people actively sabotaging an easy town-victory

Because you havent had to deal with them every day since the game started.....

it seems so irrational to vote someone who is almost definitely town because you find them annoying to deal with.

You know any better way to deal with them? I could go and complain to the mod, but nothing they have done is grounds for doing so, they're just playing deliberately anti town regardless of their alignment.

ignore them? i understand that there's a limit to how long you can put up with something, but lynching him seems like an extreme option with no real justification other then "i dont like him very much".

policy lynches are anti-town and let the mafia coast lazily 99.9% of the time

[projectmatt]

does someone want to summarize the case on wilky for me?

[projectmatt]

vote: ramicus

[projectmatt]

Oh jesus I can't spell

VOTE: Ramcius

[projectmatt]

i think focusing this day on fulfilling the quest is a bad idea that stifles natural conversation/scumhunting/vca

i hope we're done soon

[projectmatt]

It unfortunate that this causes another day of unnaturally formed wagons VCA is one of my strong points.

yup

who do you want to lynch the most? (disregarding the quest for a second)

[projectmatt]

It unfortunate that this causes another day of unnaturally formed wagons VCA is one of my strong points.

yup

who do you want to lynch the most? (disregarding the quest for a second)

I'd like to see your answer to this.
In the spirit of fairness, mine is TChill. (should go without saying but jic you haven't been keeping up)

my lynchpool is ramcius, hebichan, or tchill.

honestly, the only reason tchill is there and not dunnstral is because tchill's #1341 really rubbed me the wrong way.

what's your reasoning for wanting to lynch him the most? (if you already made a case, i missed it)

[projectmatt]

If one post is scummy, it's scummy. I mean, I base my reads on what is here. If someone is not posting much, I base it on what they have posted.

I did not like the posts from Vent earlier today, so if my vote wasn't there they would be now.

The way I read it, he's saying the Ouroboros, Realmen and I are a scum team because we voted together. I'm the only one he even bothered to do a half-assed case on.

If it takes me getting lynched for people to actually lynch Ventriloquist and verylazy, so be it. I don't have an ego too big to take a mislynch day 1.

I wanna lynch very lazy. Page one seemed all town except that slot.

VOTE: Unvote

lmfao

[projectmatt]

can i change my vote or are we still doing the quest

[projectmatt]

all of your posts sound insanely fake

[projectmatt]

Ouroboros still town obviously
Ankamius town
Wraith town
Kaede town
Alchemist21 town

that's my 100% list, I'll branch out from there

Okay I am legit scared.

I agree with RC.

Help. Me. I must be going insane.

can you explain where literally any of these reads came from

[projectmatt]

onthemark i dont think youre mafia anymore, but i dont understand why youre insistent that dave -has- to be lynched today. your argument against him is inconclusive, and sure, it hints at him being a possible mafia, but do you actually scumread dave's lines?

[projectmatt]

I think wraith is scum more often than Davesaz

Ergo I am voting Wraith.

Easy. Regardless of your juvenile desire to call me scum over my approaching this game differently than you do.

It’s not about different approach.

If you still think Wraith is scum make your case tomorrow.

That is of course if Dave is town. If Dave is scum for reasons already discussed you’re next.

Fuck you if you think you have the right to try to lunch me

stop making posts like this

[projectmatt]

Then in that case why are you saying “have fun with that I guess”

Wouldn’t you work with your townread? Who do you town and scumread?

I work with everyone, not with just townreads. In your case, i just don't see how i could help you without losing my patience and telling everything

I'm pretty sure Tchill/Wilky have 1 scum in, Ank is another of my scumread,

cause i didn't like their reactions

and they aren't doing much to solve game, last one prob in lurkers - Maria/Wraith/Dunn/Kokichi

as for town - Ouroboros, Impo, Jungle, Project, Dave, alchemist (this one just rust on other people's read on him) and your slot now, you got promoted from scum/lurker pile to town pile

which of ank's reactions didnt you like?

[projectmatt]

Unvote

Vote: Dunnstral

[projectmatt]

ok but that's subjective

so when you say shit like:

However you do have to be scum not to vote Dave in this situation.

it destroys any credibility that you have

[projectmatt]

Pls can all the town players who think their reads are better than mine line up how many of you are there!

Add Dunnstral too. Dave RC projectmatt and Dunnstral. Yes this leaves out Kokichi but I am gonna trust Kaede on that one

this is

such

a bad read list

[projectmatt]

come on. you're smarter than that.

[projectmatt]

...If you’re town and not actively voting or mentioning your top scumread you’re just not playing town.

It’s about getting scum lynched. If you’re not lynching scum you’re scum or town in name only.

You lynch caught scum or very likely scum. It’s what town does.

I will let Kaede or Maria explain it to you all later, but if you work against this lynch you are scum to me.

However that is probably wholly irrelevant as I expect to die unless I target scum correctly.

this is so illogical i dont even know how to address it

[projectmatt]

im glad i make a strong impression

[projectmatt]

wait does that mean that you literally havent read the last 20 pages?

[projectmatt]

Like outright my 2nd most confident townread

you didnt answer my question

[projectmatt]

mafia becomes 100% more fun when you vote based off of your reads and not on mechanics

[projectmatt]

on that note, you should all vote dunn with me

[projectmatt]

There are no other options.

this is not true

[projectmatt]

hmm i sure wonder if onthemark insisting that dave is the only possible lynch today is going to further stifle conversation/natural scumhunting and force people to argue about mechanics just like the quest did

[projectmatt]

There are no other options.

this is not true

You may not have played with me or are feigning ignorance.

I am making this simple. We’re lynching Dave.

says who

[projectmatt]

the

entire reason

there's no natural discussion in this game and nobody is getting good reads is because of overly strict adherence to mechanics

[projectmatt]

sure, we can absolutely combine mechanics and scumhunting

my issue with this game in particular is that we're favoring mechanics to the extent where scumhunting is being stifled.

a good example of this is you saying that anyone who doesn't vote dave is mafia. by doing that, you're literally holding the entire playerlist hostage by making them stick to the mechanics and not, you know, actual scumhunting.

[projectmatt]

sure, we can absolutely combine mechanics and scumhunting

my issue with this game in particular is that we're favoring mechanics to the extent where scumhunting is being stifled.

a good example of this is you saying that anyone who doesn't vote dave is mafia. by doing that, you're literally holding the entire playerlist hostage by making them stick to the mechanics and not, you know, actual scumhunting.

When the mechanics dictate the lynch yes that is accurate.

Hell you can even say “I think Dave is town but as town we need this lynch and my top scumreads are A BC because BCD” but going against this lynch is 99% antitown.

you literally just proved my point

[projectmatt]

Oh great, now instead of just RC being an egomaniac we have two of 'em.

who do you think we should lynch?

[projectmatt]

The Real Way™ to play mafia is to make the game as boring as possible

[projectmatt]

And if we get scum lynches every day it 100% doesn’t matter if it’s brute force or not.

You’re reeking of scum who can’t breathe here

The problem

Is that those lynches aren't natural

Brute forcing lynches creates a vacuum

That vacuum makes flips give less information
That vacuum makes everyone's reactions unnatural and harder to read
That vacuum

makes the game difficult for everybody else.

That vaccuum makes flips give less information. Iioa is a scum tell even if it did apply which it doesn’t.
People are reacting to the vaccuum and reads happen off of that. Again if you sign up for a mechanics game and don’t want to acknowledge mechanics that isn’t a game state problem.

The vaccuum only makes it harder for scum. Mechanics only get brought up as issues when scum complain.

If we keep dropping scum it legit doesn’t matter.

the vacuum makes it

easier for scum.

[projectmatt]

i greatly look forward to another 2 months of this, then

[projectmatt]

i think i understand now, onthemark. in fact, i've developed a comprehensive strategic guide to help lead us through the rest of this game:

SCUMHUNTING = BAD

MECHANICS = GOOD

[projectmatt]

honestly, why do mafia games even have talking? i think we should just automate the process of lynching the person with the highest statistical likelihood of being mafia and be done with it

[projectmatt]

Quit spamming.

you joined this game 2 days ago and you have 160 posts

[projectmatt]

Quit spamming.

you joined this game 2 days ago and you have 160 posts

And they are all relevant and necessary to ensure the proper things happen.

Otherwise scum take control.

thank you, on behalf of everyone in this game, for ensuring that we all make the right mechanical choices.

i can't even imagine the kind of hell that would be unleashed in this game if we let people talk among themselves and scumhunt.

[projectmatt]

yeah

and the other game we played together

I correctly called out that the mechanical lock on the game was bullshit and scum-led

correctly lynched one scum that was heading it

and had a correct scumread on the PR that was integral to it

How did I catch those two slots?

I READ THEIR PLAY INSTEAD OF THEIR ROLES AND MECHANICS

reported. this is a mechanics-only game.

[projectmatt]

Now im all in favor of scumhunting and stuff, and probably discussing and ending up lynching Dave anyways, but we've wasted a lot of time with this stupid quest already, and if we dont lynch someone with impossibear as the hammerer then what we did this day to achieve that will be meaningless. Unfortunately pseudo guilty triumphs in this case as it's the easiest way to ensure a lynch goes through and we get enough information out of it about what happened N1.

we still have a week. (ish.) it's not too late to scumhunt.

[projectmatt]

Deadline: (expired on 2018-05-27 22:26:54)

Ok guys let's do it like this.
By 72 hours until deadline we need to have consolidated on a lynch via scumhunting, if that doesnt happen, then the most logical action is to ensure that dave the pseudo guilty gets lynched with impossibear as the hammer.
Until then i dont want any more complaining about mechanics or not being allowed to scumhunt ok?

sure. what are your thoughts on dunnstral?

[projectmatt]

I dont like Dunnstral, and im even more baffled by MariaR having such a strong TR on him, granted she's way better than me at reading Dunnstral, but MariaR's play this game is so ???? that i dont have a TR on her yet.
MariaR's defense of Dunn is expected if Dunn is town or scum with MariaR, which leaves that mostly MariaR needs to be sorted out first.

As for my personal opinion on Dunnstral, I dont think i can read him ever since he stopped being a hyperposter, but regardless i havent liked his vote patterns.

nice. do you wanna pressure vote him with me?

[projectmatt]

Dunn are you ever nervous Maria is trying to buddy you or no

Not really

Also, I think she's town here

Why do you think that?

[projectmatt]

Project matt was the nero slot and matt hasn't done anything to make me townread them besides wide about mech vs reading and that's one of the most easy thing to fake the harsh tone is random for me too.

lmao, it's quite bold to say that all i did was "whine about mechanics" when you acknowledged hours before that post that you didnt even know i was in the game:

whoa protect matt is in the game

also, the question of mine that you didn't answer was me asking why you hadn't read the last 30 pages of the game. (since you weren't aware i was here.)

>this person lynched scum D1
>this person is objectively the best scumhunter currently alive
>let's outright ignore his preferred lynches and decide whether he's scum or not based on flips that aren't even tangentially related to his alignment

why don't you just policy lynch me and sheep my scumreads if this is how we have to play the game?

yeah, you're not the best scumhunter in this game.

why should i vote wraith with you? show me your reasons.

And given your night action reveal, I now firmly believe that not only is there NOT additional protection for town, but we were absolutely shot last night. To me, that says it's either Ouroboros or RMOJ as the culprit there, as they are really the only ones who would dictate such a move on N1. Given Ouroboros behavior this entire game, and RMOJ's claim/quest, I'm personally leaning towards it being more likely Ouroboros, especially given the fact that "super town #1 scumhunter" decided that me, MWNN and RMOJ were scum, and so far I know for a fact that 2 of those 3 is incorrect. If the quest pans out, it basically conftowns RMOJ because that effect really doesn't benefit scum

at all

to confirm a town player publicly. So it's only a matter of time before that is a thing, and I can see why preventing the quest completion would be scum-goal summo prioritate today. <<< That's what you should be looking out for, and anyone doing so, whether deliberately or "by accident" is dying pronto.

could you explain to me how you being (potentially) shot narrows it down to Ourboros or RMOJ? i don't really get it.

Uhh I think Tchill is town and scum have a better answer to the vig but

why is tchill town?

[projectmatt]

Well if this game is going to be solved by PRs I guess I might not even bother trying to solve it.

[projectmatt]

alright, you just confirmed that youre not actually reading this game

[projectmatt]

it was a legitimate question.

[projectmatt]

i'm not convinced that it wasn't intended to be serious, especially since you missed me asking you that question multiple times and proceeded to out a read on me that showed that you didn't actually read my lines.

who's the person you want to lynch the most, maria?

[projectmatt]

I didn't think you were seriously asking me "have you read the last 20 pages" because it's such a stupid question with an obvious answer if you checked my posts.
You should also be able to see who I want lynched by my reads list. I want to lynch Tchi atm

i

did

check your posts, and that's exactly why i asked you. it seemed clear to me that you didn't fully read the game.

also, who do you want to lynch the most among people who are actually in this game? (tchill is being replaced so i dont see them as being a viable lynch atm)

[projectmatt]

Holy shit you guys are moving this way too fast for me to keep up.

Are we lynching me now? Have fun with that, completely forgetting that I was up Vent's ass through most of D1. Yeah, totally went from zero to hardcore bus in no time at all.

Makes sense.

whoa, this guy voted

the mafia.

insane.

[projectmatt]

i actually townread wraith but that post was absurd

[projectmatt]

the resistance on the dunnstral wagon is telling.

[projectmatt]

Wow, mildly unbelievable that I'm caught up.
So ETL posted a wraith case? OK.
IOU projectmatt read. Nero is one of those people who I don't trust myself to read, it's well past time I remedied ignoring the slot.

At present the best candidate for scum on my wagon is Kokichi Oma. I do not see any genuine scumhunting there

.

i'd like you to elaborate on this.

[projectmatt]

[projectmatt]

^ LAMIST ^

no it isnt

[projectmatt]

did you just try to discredit kokichi as being "LAMIST" solely for saying they want to lynch you, dave?

[projectmatt]

[projectmatt]

alright, ill bite. what information would you get from my flip?

[projectmatt]

uhh

is that it?

[projectmatt]

alright well thank you for confirming that i shouldn't take your reads seriously today

[projectmatt]

did you just try to discredit kokichi as being "LAMIST" solely for saying they want to lynch you, dave?

The broken record style there makes me think exactly that.

you didn't answer my original request for you to elaborate on your read on kokichi. clearly, they are your biggest scumread and you're trying to paint them as mafia, but the only reasons you've given are "LAMIST" and "not trying to scumhunt", which is vague and not useful

[projectmatt]

I LOVE MECHANICS

[projectmatt]

What I said is most likely to be scum on my wagon.
Not most likely to be scum.

alright, but that doesn't really answer the question. also, who is your top scum read if it isn't kokichi?

[projectmatt]

ourboros, are you going to clarify where your reads are coming from or is it part of the Sacred Secret Mechanics that you aren't allowed to talk about?

[projectmatt]

I LOVE MECHANICS

I love being alive to solve games via mechanics.
It's literally my thing. If all town in a mechanics heavy game who give information to me give correct information (and preferably full at some point) scum need to be lucky to have any hope.

as im sure you can tell, i find mechanically based games boring and missing the entire point of mafia. it's partially my fault for joining a game on this site and expecting something different, though.

[projectmatt]

I pulled them out of a deep dark place.

answer me.

[projectmatt]

hmm gee i wonder why ourboros goes silent the moment i ask them to clarify their reads

[projectmatt]

i too, would like to find out the basis for the scumreads. unfortunately,

M E C H A N I C S

are more important

[projectmatt]

do it.

[projectmatt]

i would genuinely love nothing more than for you to make a case for me being mafia

[projectmatt]

I am not going to do a PBPA of Matt because I haven't had the same level of tiem to distill what I don't like about individual posts but

1) His obsession with the question of mechanical vs not mechanical feels like a scum posturing to me. He doesn't actually try to change it, he just makes fun of OTM for it.
2) He AGAIN feels really TMIy with several locktownreads that he doesn't explain, insulting several readslists with no indication of what's wrong with them, and his poorly explained Davesaz tr.
3) Back with 1: he repeatedly gets mad at townies for doing 'bad' things but makes no effort to change them, he just insults them and continues to sideline the game.
4) At no point in the game does he actually scumhunt or explain a read. Go through the game again, it literally never happens. He just has this Dunnstral scumread and pushes it, no explanation, insults a bunch of the popular wagons, no explanation, explains why Tchill is included in his scumpool earlier in the game but no explanation of why anyone there is scum.

1. I've tried to change it. I think the over-reliance on mechanics was/is ruining the game, and the reason I posted so heavily about mechanics is because OTM was leading the game in a direction where scumhunting/actual discussion wasn't taking place. In fact, I would argue that a huge part of the reason the day hasn't ended yet is because I actively challenged the Dave lynch.

I guess you could call that "posturing", but that doesn't make much logical sense. Of course I'm going to care about a game not being driven by mechanics when I think it's actively harming us.

2. Why didn't you ask me to explain any of these reads? It's pretty weird to not engage with me about my read-list and then paint it as scummy that I didn't explain all of my reads without prompting.

3. You're assuming that calling out my townreads for being anti-town isn't an effective way to get them to stop, or at least better than nothing. You make the incorrect assumption that I'm not trying to change things and get reads.

4. The vast majority of my posts are scumhunting. Why do you think I ask people questions? Why do you think I call people out for "bad" posts? I scumhunt differently, but that doesn't mean I'm not scumhunting.

We obviously have different playstyles, and I think that this is a case of you incorrectly assuming that different play = scum.

[projectmatt]

You should vote ProjectMatt then!

VOTE: ProjectMatt

sure

yikes, alright

UNVOTE

VOTE: Ramcius

[projectmatt]

i ask questions when i notice something about a person's play that seems logically inconsistent/i want to sort them. i didn't have that problem with you.

granted, i'm not really sure if you're mafia anymore based on MariaR's claim.

[projectmatt]

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

[projectmatt]

it was your interaction on page 57. dunn's read on ram in #1405 was blatant fence-sitting, and then he deflected your questioning of him by arguing about semantics.

in addition, i quoted a post i thought was a scumtell (your #1043) and made it clear that i had already sorted you.

[projectmatt]

i mean, not really. the only reason i switched from you to dunnstral is because you reacted semi-decently to the pressure on you, and it seemed like dunnscum was slipping under the radar.

what made you decide to vote me, ramcius?

Peer pressure

do you think im mafia? why or why not?

[projectmatt]

uh. i shouldn't have to say this, but of course my entire scumread isn't based on one post. that's a weird misrep.

[projectmatt]

It's the only thing resembling a read you've put forth about me, so that's all I have to go off of

well first of all, my original reason for scumreading you was your entire interaction between ourbourous and yourself in posts #1405-1415. you dodged a reasonable question by arguing about semantics, and your response to the question itself didn't make sense.

you attempting to push for a verylazy wagon in #1043 was weird because it came out of nowhere, and i thought that verylazy had multiple towntells that were being ignored.

additionally, there's stuff like this:

This wagon movement on Ventriloquist is kind of sketchy.

self-explanatory.

RC is town; he wouldn't bus if people are just going to suspect him after the fact anyway

i think this reasoning is questionable.

Kaede

, PJM, Ank all townreads, all thinking the same as me so it makes me feel better about PJM.

:eyeroll:

this was weird because you outed a previous townread on ank, so your eyeroll must have been directed toward kokichi's read on me. however, you didn't try to push or interact with me until later in the day, so this seemed like an attempt to set-up a future read on me.

there's more but i dont feel like going into it. the point being, my reads have reasoning behind them, and you could have learned all of that if you had asked.

[projectmatt]

oh nvm i misread that last post and see that you were rolling your eyes about kaede being a townread, but the other points still stand.

[projectmatt]

Projectmatt is also trying to push the wagon elsewhere.

explain.

[projectmatt]

so, you're not going to explain or respond to my response?

that's a shame.

[projectmatt]

Nope it's not a hard response to make as scum.

so you cant even explain what you mean by "projectmatt is also trying to push the wagon elsewhere"?

[projectmatt]

why do people even play mafia if they dont want to engage

[projectmatt]

everyone is bad but me

[projectmatt]

ourosboros, i find it pretty weak that you made a case against me and then accused me of trying to change the wagon, but you refuse to engage with me or elaborate on your thoughts about those things. it shows me that your scumhunting isn't based on logic but rather the annoying kind of stubbornness that makes me get annoyed at every mafiascum game i join.

[projectmatt]

i'm also stubborn, but the difference between us is that one of us is logical too.

[projectmatt]

I'm logical enough to have lynched scum yesterday so.

do you seriously think that justifies your play today?

[projectmatt]

Who cares about my play today?

What's your ramcius read?

i'm not answering your questions until you answer mine.

[projectmatt]

this game is going to be pulverized into the ground by the collective stubbornness and illogical thinking of ouroboros and onthemark. it sucks since they're both probably town.

i'm out for a while.

[projectmatt]

has anyone explained why wraith is scum? i just iso'd them and i dont see it.

life has made it hard to post recently but if the game is still open tonight, i should be able to catch up and read some more iso's that ive missed.

[projectmatt]

alternate question: why is the ramcius wagon being ignored in favor of the wraith wagon? that's weird.

[projectmatt]

Yeah I could get on board with a Vent wagon too

Is it not possible Tchill has a jester role of some sort? Not suggesting an insta win but I don't see how his claim could be helpful to town otherwise.

It wouldn't surprise me if Wilky has done research and is relying on the miller claim because he realises the host has done this before, especially since he chose to highlight that it wasn't far fetched for there to be 2 millers again. As Alchemist said though, this is relying on some pretty niche assumptions so I'm not buying it just yet.

Very suspicious post

Almost forgot, might as well elaborate on why I find this post very suspicious, because why not

He uses some rather

absurd

leaps in logic in two separate cases to paint a narrative picture about these two players, deliberately ignoring Occam's Razor in favor of stirring up WIFOM.

What is more likely? That TChill is running a Jester gambit? Or that TChill is fakeclaiming? TChill's was by far the least believable claim so far, and the most awkward (considering Kaede is mod-confirmed). By bringing up some a longshot possiblity, Vent is indirectly mounting a soft defense of TChill.

Simultaneously, he attempts to cast suspicion on Wilky with a similarly absurd leap. What's more likely? That Wilky is claiming Miller truthfully in a game run by a mod who apparently has a habit of these kinds of setup quirks? Or that Wilky is deliberately playing off mod meta to mount a roundabout fakeclaim gambit, with a claim that is by its nature instantly considered suspect by default?

I don't like that whatsoever. And after we get the VC I might consider switching my vote right now.

this doesn't read like early-game bussing to me

[projectmatt]

VOTE: Jungle

i think that jungle is most likely scum. there's a part of me that isn't sure because i don't understand why jungle would play that type of gambit as mafia. jungle flipping mafia will give a lot of really pertinent information about the team, imo.

i think ramcius is also very likely scum. his posturing/deflection from the jungle lynch today is bad, and after iso'ing him, his day two looks really bad. i'll make an effortpost about that at some point.

i still need to analyze the weird wraith counter-wagon at the end of the day yesterday. there were definitely scum on that.

Matt can you confirm that you didn't visit anyone last night?

i confirm that i did not visit last night.

[projectmatt]

I'm also prod-dodging. Past couple of days have been rough. I'll catch up and get my actual list of reads either tonight or by early tomorrow evening.

[projectmatt]

VOTE: ProjectMatt

with Wraith flipping green, his Wraith defense at the end of the day looks like TMI and attempt to get town cred, he didn't tried save him, he just didn't wanted to be on ML wagon

this reasoning is super flimsy, considering the fact that i outed a townread on wraith before the wagon started or gained traction. are you implying that me not changing one of my townreads when they're getting wagoned is somehow a bad thing?

on that note, the above quote is one of my biggest problems with ramcius's play. his reads feel insincere and as if they lack an actual thought pattern behind them. i can't help but read his posts like they have an agenda or an ulterior motive. for example, let's examine his read on dave throughout the game.

I think a few of Vent's posts after this whole tunnel started were icky, but that's... pretty much it.

I'm against the tunnel because I think it's going to be a net negative for the rest of the game. Scumflips by themselves are useless and could even benefit scum in the worst scenarios.

I don't like this post, it feels like Ank is trying save Vent and preparing for worst case scenario by doing some damage control after Vent will flip red

this is from d1 when the wagon on vent was gaining traction. it's weird that ramcius made a post heavily implying that ankamius and ventriloquist were mafia together when at the time, he was voting wilky. in fact, he kept his vote on wilky for the rest of the day in spite of the fact that he scumread vent.

why didn't he want to join a wagon on his scumread that was actively gaining traction?

and then of course, at the start of d2, ramcius does this:

VOTE: Ank

i dislike Ank's answrs at end of the day, i disliked that hammer and now i have no idea why she wants lynch lurker

it seems clear through this little interaction that ramcius was attempting to set up vent/ank as mafia together, but refused to join in the wagon on vent or add pressure to him. pairing that with the fact that he instantly voted ank as soon as the second day started, it certainly looks like ramcius was setting up for the vent scumflip at the end of d1.

interestingly, shortly after day 2 started, ramcius outed this reads list:

i'll do better, i'll give you my rough idea on who's scum:

Tchill/Wilky (one of them very likely is scum)
Ank (i really disliked reactions and that shade throw without giving any names looked really bad)
last one probably in lurkers: Maria/Dunn/Wraith/hebi/Kokichi (dave and alchemist i trust you guys for now on meta reads, Nero's aggressiveness felt more like town, as scum his more troll)

you can see here that his reasoning for ank being scum doesn't mention the interaction with vent at all, which further makes me believe that he outed a fake partner-interaction read to push on somebody, as opposed to it being a real thought process.

few more things about ram:

Nah, I'll reveal it when I care enough to. Not before then.

ran out of "how to scum 101" tricks?

>"it was just a reaction test and you failed it"
>"you can never lynch me"
>"i know your team"

this aggressiveness and arrogance reads to me like caught-scum, and not someone sincerely interested in solving the game.

Then in that case why are you saying “have fun with that I guess”

Wouldn’t you work with your townread? Who do you town and scumread?

I work with everyone, not with just townreads. In your case, i just don't see how i could help you without losing my patience and telling everything

I'm pretty sure Tchill/Wilky have 1 scum in, Ank is another of my scumread, cause i didn't like their reactions and they aren't doing much to solve game, last one prob in lurkers - Maria/Wraith/Dunn/Kokichi

as for town - Ouroboros, Impo, Jungle, Project, Dave, alchemist (this one just rust on other people's read on him) and your slot now, you got promoted from scum/lurker pile to town pile

the read-list here is notable because ramcius went from putting me in his town list to addressing me like he knows for sure that i'm mafia within a very short amount of time. i believe he was piggybacking off of the town's general read on me and then ditched it when it became convenient to push on me/i started becoming a potential lynch.

VOTE: Wraith

I just don't see Dave being scum and rb on him is very weak argument, we aren't in such dire state to go after him and we can lynch someone we scumread instaed

shortly after, ramcius joins the wraith wagon when it starts gaining traction, even though wraith wasn't in his top scum-reads and was listed among a potential mafia along the lurkers.

Did I mention how bad that Wraith wagon was. Literally nothing was resolved and we have the same questions as yesterday. 100% scum was on that wagon as well.

or all scum were off wagon, because they knew Wraith gonna flip green

this post definitely has an agenda to it.

[projectmatt]

I'm good with projectmatt though. That's a good lynch.

VOTE: pmatt

ETL

where did this read come from? i don't think you've explained it.

VOTE: Projectmatt
Let's get this moving

same question to you.

[projectmatt]

ankamius is town. their attempts to solve the game feel sincere and i can see an active thought process behind their votes/questioning that resonates with me.

onthemark is town. i think a lot of their posts have an arrogance and a complex about feeling like the hero of the game that i would find very hard to fake as scum.

kaede is conf town.

maria is possibly mafia. i'm really skeptical about their choice to investigate me, and they've been using the "i have information that will all make sense eventually" card for a majority of the game. i don't really see towntells from them, and the reads they have outed appear sporadic and like they aren't trying to game-solve. it feels like coasting.

ramcius is scum for reasons noted above.

punreader is probably town because of their claim and their attempts to game-solve are insightful/genuine.

dunnstral might be mafia. i explained my scumread on him in #3091. to summarize, he had interaction with ourborous that strongly struck me as scum-dodging a good question, and his reads throughout the game have been inconsistent, as well as being protective of vent on d1. i don't know if it's because we play differently, but the lack of clarification on any reads strikes me as lazy and scum-motivated.

kokichi is probably town. i think ramcius's interactions with kokichi isn't scum v scum. i also thought verylazy towntold a lot on d1.

impossibear is probably town, but if im being honest, i have a tendency to skim past a lot of their posts. i should do as deeper reading of them.

wilky is null-leaning town. i've iso'd them multiple times and i've never seen their posts as being scum-motivated, and i've also failed to see an actual case for them being mafia.

alchemist is null-leaning scum. i originally townread them for their approach to scumhunting/well-thought out reads, but i feel like their play has considerably slipped within the past day or so, and it feels like alchemist is very much coasting off of other peoples reads/scumhunting at the moment. maybe he'll come back and redeem himself.

realmen is null. i thought they were mafia who was lying about messing up the quest, and i still think that's a distinct possibility, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to lynch them today since they can hand out more quests and confirm people as town. i suspect that this slot will solve itself over time.

daveas is null-leaning town. i don't think they've particularly towntold a lot, but the aggressive pushing on them paired with any lack of case really makes me feel like their lynched was an attempt by scum to divert from lynching the actual mafia.

to summarize:

town: ankamius, onthemark, kaede, punreader, kokichi, impossibear.

null-leaning town: wilky, dave.

null: realmen.

null-leaning scum: alchemist.

scum: ramcius, maria, dunn.

there is a distinct possibility that one of my townreads is wrong. i'm not sure.

[projectmatt]

UNVOTE

VOTE: Ramcius

[projectmatt]

lame.

[projectmatt]

he's re-quoting what i said yesterday about the wagon on him.

[projectmatt]

let's see what we have here:

and you let lynch your "townread" Wraith without putting any real defense or at least saying why he's town? 10/10 "town" play

Did i was needed on Vent wagon? No. Did he get lynched? Yes. So me not being on Vent wagon didn't changed nothing for town. As for why i wasn't on that wagon? I didn't wanted follow RC again and didn't wanted end day so early, Vent was conf scum in my book, so i saw no point in early wagon on him

Sorry that i didn't used something that was considered NAI by people to scumread Ank

Yes, i'm scum for my aggressive playstyle, good job, especially, when you quote my post, where i push my scumread, which i was voting at a time

are you really saying that i shouldn't change early D1 read on your slot after you were acting so scummy?

again, you nitpicking, i explained my reasoning before, i will explain again - if i have lynch my null read to save my townreads, i do it, people weren't interested in lynching my scumreads, so i had to settle down for my nullread

want to share this "agenda" or you gonna keep it for yourself?

I actively tried to start wagons other than Wraith for the entire day.

You're telling me that Vent was confirmed scum to you? Where did you indicate that? Plus, you decided to force the wagon onto someone with who your entire scumread hinged on Vent being mafia? I don't see that at all.

you missed the entire point about the ank interaction.

your aggressive playstyle does not make you mafia. i have an aggressive playstyle. however, i think your aggressiveness is indicative of mafia because it's paired with a cockiness and a weird amount of confidence in reads.

you are allowed to change your reads, but you never explained your scumread on my slot and switched seemingly out of nowhere. that's why it's scummy.

your compromise on the wraith wagon would make sense if there was literally no other lynches happening. at the time of your vote, there were a lot of opportunities to push for your scumreads. that seems like a hollow excuse to me.

the "agenda" i was referring to is that you suggested that all of the scum were off of the wraith wagon at the end of yesterday, which had no basis for it and looked like an attempt to discredit kokichi's attempt to search for scum on the wraith wagon.

also, Matt, care to explain to everyone why would i push Wraith ML to save Dave? Cause apparently you don't think i was saving my scumbuddy from lynch

that doesn't make sense. are you saying i should be townreading you for not voting dave?

[projectmatt]

honestly, i think it's ridiculous that i'm close to being lynched. i'll claim if im in danger of getting hammered.

[projectmatt]

is anyone around that wants to talk through some reads with me? im feeling a little lost.

[projectmatt]

1. i primarily tried to push on dunnstral and you. i explained my reasoning, too. are you trying to say that the fact that a lot of people townread you means that i shouldn't have pushed you? also, i explained my wraith townread in my catch-up post and posted multiple times asking for somebody to explain the scumread on wraith, which didn't happen. the fact that you're still pushing on me for not voting one of my townreads is just inane.

2. you ignored my question. where did you say that vent was confirmed scum to you? why didn't you vote the person who was confirmed scum to you?

3. my problem with your scumread on ank on d1 is that it hinged on vent being mafia, even though your read on vent was vague and not fleshed out in the slightest. that was the point.

4. meta is irrelevant to my scumread on you. i always try to act confident about my scumreads, but there's a certain level of confirmation bias that happens when you roll mafia that can be hard to avoid, and i think it's what happened with you.

5. when i asked you why you changed to me, you literally said "peer pressure" and nothing about your read on nero. i don't buy that.

6. hahaha, what? so you're saying that on day one, it made sense to push someone who would never be lynched because it was the right thing to do, but on day two you suddenly realized that you can't push on people who aren't likely to be lynched? you could have pushed on your scumreads. you could have made cases. this is an excuse for lazy play.

7. because someone who they (potentially) townread discredited the idea that there was a mafia in the wraith wagon. it very much reads like a deflection.

8. how does that paint a target on your back? who has pushed on you for that today? i already explained the "scum motivation", too.

[projectmatt]

>when your 2 sr's are the biggest wagon
it's Christmas time to see who I can lynch first

lazy post

[projectmatt]

1. i primarily tried to push on dunnstral and you. i explained my reasoning, too. are you trying to say that the fact that a lot of people townread you means that i shouldn't have pushed you? also, i explained my wraith townread in my catch-up post and posted multiple times asking for somebody to explain the scumread on wraith, which didn't happen. the fact that you're still pushing on me for not voting one of my townreads is just inane.

2. you ignored my question. where did you say that vent was confirmed scum to you? why didn't you vote the person who was confirmed scum to you?

3. my problem with your scumread on ank on d1 is that it hinged on vent being mafia, even though your read on vent was vague and not fleshed out in the slightest. that was the point.

4. meta is irrelevant to my scumread on you. i always try to act confident about my scumreads, but there's a certain level of confirmation bias that happens when you roll mafia that can be hard to avoid, and i think it's what happened with you.

5. when i asked you why you changed to me, you literally said "peer pressure" and nothing about your read on nero. i don't buy that.

6. hahaha, what? so you're saying that on day one, it made sense to push someone who would never be lynched because it was the right thing to do, but on day two you suddenly realized that you can't push on people who aren't likely to be lynched? you could have pushed on your scumreads. you could have made cases. this is an excuse for lazy play.

7. because someone who they (potentially) townread discredited the idea that there was a mafia in the wraith wagon. it very much reads like a deflection.

8. how does that paint a target on your back? who has pushed on you for that today? i already explained the "scum motivation", too.

1. No, i'm saying that pushing me, when people aren't interested in my lynch was posturing and a way to stay out of Wraith wagon

2. Let me think, i did called him scum, i fought his nonsense that he threw my way, i didn't opposed his lynch. And your question is wrong, i answered that already, question is, why would i park my vote on Vent so early in D1?

3. Are you talking about my D1 push on Ank or D2?

4. you think, glad to know that instead of checking out, you just work on your assumptions

5. It wasn't read change, you asked why i voted you, but i was wondering then and i'm wondering now - did you really missed RC asking why i'm not voting you? You even quoted his message

6. You feel difference, when main wagon is your scumread and when it's your townread? Also, it was pretty early D1 adn we were close to EoD in D2, and i don't even want to talk about different game flow on D1 and D2, which would be gibberish to you

7. If you give up on your stance so easily, when someone, who you aren't townreading is saying white is black, your initial stance was a bs to begin with

8. Good for you, if you can see future, i can't, and hard pushing ML is scummy by itself and attracts a lot of attention, when someone you pushed flips green. So why would i want so much attention as a scum, when i can just take easy ML without risk?

1. alright. if you're going to stick to that point, then surely you can agree with me that you voting ank on d1 when people weren't interested in their lynch is posturing too. hold yourself to the same standard.

2. so in other words, you never indicated that vent was confirmed scum to you in spite of saying that you did. you barely pushed on him. i'm not asking you to park your vote, but the fact that you had a super confident scumread on one person that was so strong that it was the basis for your other scumreads makes it was weird that you barely pushed on them or explained your read at all.

3. i'm talking about the d1 push. i even said "your push on d1" in the thing you're responding to...

4. that's not a counter-argument, just a snarky response.

5. i don't understand. what does rc's post have to do with that?

6. that's super condescending. do you seriously think that i don't understand what game flow means? give me a break. it's clear to me that you're avoiding directly responding to me because you don't want your shoddy logic to be seen.

7. no. that isn't how mafia works. mafia have a tendency to try to sow doubt/cynicism into games, and they especially try to discredit reads/wagon analysis that would be detrimental to them.

8. first of all, it allows you to use the same argument you're using now as scum. also, attention as mafia is not a bad thing. there's no reason why what you did yesterday would give you negative attention, and that makes it dishonest to imply it created a target on your back. we can know that isn't true because nobody is pushing on you for that.

[projectmatt]

impossibear, you never responded to my question. why do you sr me?

[projectmatt]

1. Same standard? I wasn't trying save Vent, while you claiming you attempted to save Wraith. If you want same standard, compare my push on Wraith to save Dave and your push on me to save Wraith

2. Oh, i see now, you calling me scum for D1 reaction test on Ank?

4. ofc, what else you expect, if you refuse to check my playstyle? Hint, RC knew my meta pretty well and didn't pushed me for that, so...

5. then it's your problem, not mine

6. but you obviously don't understand - you can't even understand difference, when i'm ok with main wagon and i put vote for some pressure to get better read and when i go for lynch, when i disagree with main wagon

7. Why my stance to Wraith wagon is discredit, but Kokichi's is not? He didn't provided any argument to support his stance, neither he tried pursuit scums or analyse Wraith wagon?

8. i would agree with you, if i wasn't second biggest wagon...

Also, simple fact that you ignore everyone, who's voting you and just trying push some bs on me is very telling, you just want 1 more ML before they get yoiu

1. the entire point is that your vote on ank was posturing because ank had no real chance of getting lynched. again, your logic here does not make any sense whatsoever because it assumes that me townreading wraith and trying to lynch other people is posturing. you should have just admitted that this point doesn't make any sense, dude.

2/3. wait, are you really claiming your vote on ank was a reaction test? for real? that contradicts so many other things that you've said.

4. again, this isn't about your playstyle. at. all. who cares about meta?

5. you're the person who asked me the question, dude. did you even have a reason for bringing it up?

6. you're either missing or intentionally misrepresenting the point. i feel like we're talking in circles.

7. so, your response to me calling out one of your scumtells is to say "but what about this person!? they scumtold too!". scumtells don't exist in a vacuum. i townread kokichi.

8. but nobody is pushing on you for the very thing you're saying put a target on your back.

i'm not ignoring anyone. i literally asked a page ago to talk about my reads with anyone who was online, which was met with no response. that's such a blatant lie.

this is getting frustrating.

[projectmatt]

Ramcius, it's impossible to debate with you because your only technique is to deflect questions against you with absurd and contradictory points. I've pointed out a lot of these, but you keep moving the goalposts. It's not worth it.

@EVERYONE,

please read Ramcius's last few posts. I think they're really telling of scum-flailing.

Matt

I'd gladly talk with you about reads, I mostly can't atm because I'm barely here

Awesome. What do you think of wilky/dave/alchemist? I'm trying to sort those slots ATM.

[projectmatt]

(I'll be a bit miffed if nobody takes the time to at least take a cursory look at what I just provided given it took me an hour to compile just five years out of the total of eight years of Large Theme games.)

i appreciate the effort, but i'm not going to respond to the meta-case because i don't know nero cain and it would be silly to try to argue about something so subjective.

could you do me a favor and iso me? you've implied that you haven't read a lot of my posts. or, at the very least, read the last couple of pages comprehensively.

[projectmatt]

(I'll be a bit miffed if nobody takes the time to at least take a cursory look at what I just provided given it took me an hour to compile just five years out of the total of eight years of Large Theme games.)

i appreciate the effort, but i'm not going to respond to the meta-case because i don't know nero cain and it would be silly to try to argue about something so subjective.

could you do me a favor and iso me? you've implied that you haven't read a lot of my posts. or, at the very least, read the last couple of pages comprehensively.

requoting in case pun missed it.

also pun, have you played with me on mafiascum or on another mafia website? i'm genuinely curious, just because i don't play here that often.

[projectmatt]

can any of the people voting me substantiate their read on me? so far, my requests for explanations have gone ignored, and it seems like a lot of people are piggybacking off of punreader's meta case, which is concerning.

[projectmatt]

also if any of the people voting me (or about to vote me) post again without answering, im going to assume they're making it up.

[projectmatt]

the amount of scum manipulation that's been happening to allow for a wraith lynch and me being (likely) lynched back to back is actually really throwing me off.

something is off.

[projectmatt]

maybe it's my confirmation bias speaking, but i thought rc's case was absolutely absurd, and he never responded when i refuted it.

definitely doesn't justify what's happening today.

[projectmatt]

...did anyone even read or acknowledge my case on ram? just going to ignore that? alright.

[projectmatt]

wilky, could you be persuaded to leave my wagon in favor of wagoning ram?

[projectmatt]

kaede, maria, and impossibear:

could you break down your reasoning as to why you're voting me today? i'm getting a little frustrated at how much my posts seem invisible.

[projectmatt]

i think there's at least two scum on my wagon, by the way.

[projectmatt]

i will claim tomorrow (as in, tomorrow in real life) if this lynch is still happening.

[projectmatt]

alright, my hand is forced, i guess.

my flavor is piper. i'm an odd night rolecop. my pm specifies that i can investigate on every other night, starting on n1.

nero cain did not submit an action on night one. (i've been trying to figure out why, tbh.)

i was unable to investigate tonight.

assuming i'm not lynched today, i am going to investigate tonight within impossibear's scumpool.

[projectmatt]

can we lynch the mafia yet

[projectmatt]

alright well there's no hope for this game, clearly

[projectmatt]

it should be a

huge

wake up call for anyone who's town here when wraith and me flip town back to back. there's serious scum manipulation going on
here.

[projectmatt]

i would try more but i've seriously already said everything i have to say at this point, and it wasn't acknowledged or taken seriously. so, whatever. just start being smarter tomorrow.

[projectmatt]

ram & maria, with the possibility of one of impossibear/pun.

[projectmatt]

i take it back. jungle is way more likely to be scum than impossibear.

[projectmatt]

yeah, i'm pretty sure that's a hammer.

all that i ask if that you re-evaluate your reads upon my flip.

if i make it back to my laptop in time before the flip, ill post some last minute analysis.

[projectmatt]

ank, these were my responses to your questions about the wagon:

ram & maria, with the possibility of one of impossibear/pun.

i take it back. jungle is way more likely to be scum than impossibear.

im in firm agreement that there is very likely a scum within the universal townreads.

[projectmatt]

Well apparently so is matt tho.
And this was Nero's scum meta too.

i would have given up by this point

[projectmatt]

Oh sorry, I didn't realize

it's all good. who do you think is most likely to be scum within the universal townreads?