Starcraft Mafia: 2 -- Game Over!
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Doesn't make sense to me either.In post 77, Varsoon wrote:I don't understand why town would ever commit to play that knowingly hinders reads accuracy.
@stw could ya'll talk to me about why you think the reduction in clutter resulting from synchronizing is more beneficial to town than signing your posts?In post 58, Shoshin the worst wrote:We've spoken about it a fair bit and have made the decision not to focus on signing. We expect quite a bit of clutter because of all the hydras, so we're synchronising our reads as much as possible before posting & collaboratively writing the majority of our posts.103-11 0-2-
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my vote was rvsIn post 131, Shoshin the worst wrote:Could everyone clarify why they're voting us?
-Shoshin & the worst
now it's real
I'm not convinced by Taly's wifom argument
This signing posts thing and follow up posts are the scummiest posts of the thread. Why does town you not just go okok jeez and start signing?
@varsoon
Dunno about the word choice argument. It seems to me that if a person wasn't using a phrase, and then they pick up a phrase, they might keep using that phrase regardless of alignment. I definitely find myself doing that in conversation.
Can you find an instance not in the SC1 game where Shoshin used that turn of phrase?
of course you could also just be right.103-11 0-2-
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Hrm, small sample size would make that difficult to confirmIn post 145, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I think Starcraft 1 is only her second scumgame on this site. I could probably try the look up the first. The worst might have linked to it in Labrynth.
But even if she hadn’t, unless she has done that in at least one towngame, I think it’s reasonable to view it as scummy.
It's definitely not town indicative.103-11 0-2-
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I don't know enough (anything) about hydra etiquette to know if this is a fair or taking the pissIn post 151, Shoshin the worst wrote:
We are signing. That doesn't change the fact that most posts are written by both of us.In post 143, u r a person 2 wrote:This signing posts thing and follow up posts are the scummiest posts of the thread. Why does town you not just go okok jeez and start signing?
-Shoshin & the worst103-11 0-2-
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can i take these to be scum reads?In post 163, Shoshin the worst wrote:@nancy you should feel bad for nearly every post you've made. Literally. You're peddling nonsense.
@harpoon your ISO has become such a farce I'm losing my rvs townread on you. get back to fucking playing.103-11 0-2-
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sup bro
Taly looks townie but I didn't have another good place to vote so I was kind of just waiting for something to go on
I'm also concerned about my ability to read this player list as a whole at a rate better than average.
and have been toying with the question of whether sheeping a player or hydra experienced with the player set might be greater +eV than following my own reads
not really straight sheeping but committing myself to ++weighting their reads
Someone like Almost Chara - I like the thinking behind A50's lynch pool, or at least what I infer the thinking to be. But I'm also in that lynch pool which has to lower the equity of the entire worldview
I've also noticed pintu promising a catch up, and I've been watching to see if he was going to follow through. I guess it's been long enough to plop a vote there.
VOTE: Pintu103-11 0-2-
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should readIn post 217, u r a person 2 wrote:rate better than average.
rate better than random103-11 0-2-
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@tw
12 is pintu's rvs vote.
I think it's likely I'm missing a meme or inside joke because its inclusion feels off without any context.
Overall I think it's nai. Not too awkward.
28, 47 are not game related
and 192, 226 are as of yet unfulfilled catch up promises.
Well and the unvote because he saw the votecount - which was L-2 if he only saw the vote count, and actually L-3 which he may have seen while skimming the page.
seems needlessly lamist.
Not much to work with as of yet103-11 0-2-
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sorry this refers to the "and for Sparta!!!1!!one!" part of the postIn post 246, u r a person 2 wrote:I think it's likely I'm missing a meme or inside joke because its inclusion feels off without any context.103-11 0-2-
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Only the thoughts I gave you. Looking at it further,
The last two lines are funny in the context of the thread. I wouldn't put it past a scum to make that comment pretending not to have caught up as a troll
I have no idea what is record is of reading you, so I can't really evaluate that claim or his motivation for asking you to sign.
he's not playing any other games so I'm willing to believe he's disengaged, although his rvs post did seem excited to play (and why not?)
Are you seeing something here? because I'm having trouble getting much of consequence.103-11 0-2-
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The "let's see what happened there" is kind of odd because if he did see that it was L-3, then that's only one vote more than you had the last time he posted. (at 47 you were at L-4) that's really not much movement, from the pov he is claiming.
that combined with his comment about you signing posts and maybe you've got a decent reason to believe pintu had actually read the thread when he said he hadn't.103-11 0-2-
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well my vote is because pintu is one of the few players here I have experience with, so I want to sort him, but I need him to play.
The "push" is a response to stw's questions which I wanted to give a full faith effort for them because they are some of the few players that have experience with me and I want to give them the best opportunity to find town!me.
my town leans right now are
STW -tone,play I think TW is trying to use his experience modding and playing with me to read me and that's why he's asking me for my thoughts about specific posts.
varsoon - sheeping taly
almost chara - town by play, thought process behind lynch pool
tibor and lumia i like the thought in gemma's play and brass i think sounds town, this is pretty light even for this list
taly - natural progression from his initial gambit to current play.
Let's take the leap of faith that these are correct. If there was scum on stw's wagon, i'd look first at pin, proflavor and alch
still like the pin vote103-11 0-2-
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Feels great to be recognized
I'm just going to run through slots as long as I've got the time to do it.
Michael Scott feels pretty town. I like how he questions a a reciprocal town read on himself in 314. I like how they continued this line of questioning in 326, 337 before concluding in 346.
I like the initiative demonstrated in his meta read on varsoon, although I do think he found enough examples of venom (i know it's not venomless, but-) to diminish the read.
I don't like the two posts spent questioning proflavor about an obviously nonsense/joke scum read. @MS what's the deal w/ this?
overall town read103-11 0-2-
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I've had a hard time engaging with posts by either Ari or Nancy, so I haven't been giving that slot much thought. Realistically, this is a slot that my highest ev play is to find someone in a better position to make a meta read, and then sheep them.
But, I'll dig into them now because you asked. Gimme a hot minute103-11 0-2-
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Okay, Mephistophanes
There's hydra dissonance between ari and nancy over both the signing posts bit and shoshin's phrase usage. I can see a scum motivation for taking opposite sides of an argument surrounding hot early game topics because the game board is still being set so staying flexible is most valuable during this stage of the game.
Others have pointed out that dissonance can be townie, and I think there is a fair amount of history or baggage that I may not be fully understanding regarding ari and signing in particular. So I'm calling this NAI, but if anyone more experienced with ari wants to chime in, that would be neat.
I like nancy's argument in 111. I'm not scum reading stw anymore, but it is still a good post by nancy.
I like ari's read on alch in 212 and agree.
I like Nancy's progression on stw. It seems organic. The same is true for the progression on taly in 331. I believe it. I think that is nancy talking, but it's unsigned and I'm not sure.
There is a lot of noise in this slot, and if I'm missing something I should be scum reading, that's why. Nothing popped out, though. Town lean.103-11 0-2-
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@ProFlavor Your game so far consists of pushing me for pushing Pintu, and pushing nico for their entrance. I agree with you that they're not the same push
but I think your slot is coasting as either alignment. FL doesn't seem to be playing, and Woof isn't doing much. Can you talk to me about your town read on T&L?103-11 0-2-
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Okay, good. I thought I had missed something obvious. With respect, I think you're off on this one, mate.In post 404, Shoshin the worst wrote:Do you really think there's a decent chance that scum!pintu has sneakily read the thread, sat there and thought about it, and decided to irritate and exposed slot including the duck who he's good at pocketing by making this post, rather than just going in for a softpocket?
Given his scumstyle and the smooth way he presents himself, do you think it would occur to scum!pintu AT ALL to make this post? I feel like its potentially not outside his scumrange, but it'd be a fairly strange evolution of his scumrange.
So, I DO think scum!pintu likely tries to pocket town!tw this game, but I don't think this post precludes it. Pintu the person is a smart guy with a sense of humor and a bit of flair so I think it is possible that he would find this sort of light trolling amusing, regardless of alignment, but especially as scum.
Further, what about this post has stopped scum!pintu from being able to pocket you? You don't seem to be scum reading pintu, so I'm not sure why this would be a concern of his. I mean, he unvotes you in the same post.
Lastly, he was posting a "im here will catchup" post that he didn't end up keeping. If this is scum!pintu, and he wasn't intending to catch up last night, then the second half of the post might have been his attempt to send town back into a fruitless discussion for a hot minute while he wastes time.
Whatcha think?103-11 0-2-
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Hi Pin,In post 412, pinturicchio wrote:Um, pretty weird stance that started from "I'm voting to sort pin", are you scumreading me now or not? 'Cause I already caught up, URAP2.
-Turicchio
TW asked me if scum!you would ever make that post. I answered that yes, I think scum!you could make that post. At no point did I make any argument that the post was outside of your town range.
And I know that you walled me. I'm digesting it, and I fully expect to engage with you about it and other fun topics. I hope you don't mind waiting a bit?103-11 0-2-
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TW, you asked me to analyze a very thin iso, and then a very thin post. I know that you and I both think there is value in taking close looks at otherwise inconsequential posts, and I gave you a full faith effort for precisely that reason. It's pretty sneaky to then turn around and read my response to that thought experiment as if I claimed those thoughts were engraved on stone slabs from god.
p.edit
I voted him over those others because I think I can read Pintu, so him moreso than those others I want to play.
I'm still voting him because I'm working through both my read of his big catchup and how I want to approach the slot.
Damn can a person get some space to play
I'm not asking for much time. I'll be on it this afternoon here. let it breathe103-11 0-2-
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Right, and I gave you everything i could think of on it to give you the best chance of making a read. I'm just saying treat my answer in the same good faith, charitable manner that I acted in when responding to it.In post 424, Shoshin the worst wrote:Having someone give an elaborate explanation of something pretty simple often gives more insight into mindset, than having them quickly summarise something quite a lot lengthier.103-11 0-2-
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okay, Pintu
I think Pintu's read on Varsoon is fine. Easily in both pintu ranges.
Pintu's case on me boils down to fence sitting and jumping off the stw wagon.
Fine. I've been unsure of myself all game due to hydras, experience between other players, etc. And I did get off STW's wagon. That's a fact.
What I've been digesting is the all-encompassing nature of Pin's read. Consider first the unvote:
Pin sees my action as scummy in relation to the flip regardless of which way the flip goes.In post 388, pinturicchio wrote:So in case STW is scum, URAP2's unvote means "oh shit this got way too dangerous", and if STW is town, then URAP2's unvote means "oh shit this got way too dangerous". Perfect.
And second,
Spoiler: spoiled for space
Pintu argues in the first quote that if my vote is for pressure it's scummy because it's fence sitting
And in the second quote he argues that if my vote is because of a scum read then that is scummy because it would "at least be understandable" if I "just want to put some pressure on the slot"
Either of these arguments would be less revealing in a vacuum, but in my experience when a player gets to the point that their fos looks scummy from every possible angle, that player is town that has lost their way.
I also don't think I've ever been less than clear about my reasoning for voting pintu, regardless of what some would like to believe. Here is my vote on pintu
So that points to pintu townIn post 217, u r a person 2 wrote:I've also noticed pintu promising a catch up, and I've been watching to see if he was going to follow through. I guess it's been long enough to plop a vote there.
VOTE: Pintu
That same post reads town to me from a basic meta perspective. I've played one game with scum!pintu and zero with town!pintu and he felt reasonable, almost conservative in his stances in a way that contrasts with the certainty and bravado(wordchoice fail) of his catchup
So I don't like the push, and I wouldn't recommend sheeping pintu, but he feels town.
VOTE: unvote
I've gone and found myself with too many town reads, and that was something I was trying to avoid having happen in my early game.
@Pintu How do you feel about T&L? I think that's the next slot for me to revist.103-11 0-2-
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Nah, I'm not trying to discredit your scumread, Mr. Jenkins. Well, I kind of am. I think you have to pick a side. If the wagon analysis looks scummy regardless of the flip, then really what's the point of the analysis? You're basically saying that it's universally scummy to jump off of a quick wagon, and that's obviously nonsense.In post 444, pinturicchio wrote:About your long post about me:
- I think you're trying to depict me as crazy ol' Jenkins in order to discredit my scumread on you. You basically talked about how you read me instead of defending yourself about your scummy progression.
- I like Tibor and Lumia, I know pretty well both of them and I usually read them correctly. I think they're town. Gonna ask Pin what he thinks but I'm pretty sure he'll say town too.
-Turicchio
Pick a side; we're at war. ;P
And yes, I am fundamentally more interested in reading you than on defending myself.
Thanks for the T&L read. What about Taly?103-11 0-2-
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@stw I thought you were done with this synchronized hydra nonsense but in retrospect you were just not signing and I was just inferring who was authoring the posts.
This is still scummy
also, I've given enough thought process that I think town!tw has a town read on me here at least 50% of the time
VOTE: shoshin the worst103-11 0-2-
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yeah, i asked those questions, the guy who you are voting for. =PIn post 498, ProFlavor wrote:someone said something about FL coasting a bit - he always does that. He invited me to hydra with him so I was kinda thinking I'd let him lead proceedings but he is never going to be as active as I am so that approach probably wont help.
I recall someone asking me about my T&L read- its not an amazing read really - BH & GE are both players I approach by saying they are town until they do something scummy because I mostly just don't get any vibe from what they say - I often play with him and people in the player list will be like 'oh gamma/BH is def scum' and I'm just sat here like "am I stupid i do not get that?!"
...but, for example in overkill 2, gamma was obviously defending a scum player so it was obviously AI and led to me copping him.
I'm not sure how far behind as I've skimmed most of the thread but I'll be reading tonight i think.
Do you have any town reads that you are feeling confident in? Taly, maybe?103-11 0-2-
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line 1, please refer to my isoIn post 526, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:
Like, you’re only upset about thisIn post 522, u r a person 2 wrote:@stw I thought you were done with this synchronized hydra nonsense but in retrospect you were just not signing and I was just inferring who was authoring the posts.
This is still scummy
also, I've given enough thought process that I think town!tw has a town read on me here at least 50% of the time
VOTE: shoshin the worstnow?
And the 50% thing, say whaaaat???
line 2, he modded a game with me where he followed along with a PT i wrote ~60 thought process posts about the game. We've also had a light amount of conversation about playing. I think he gets to a town read on me here at least half the time.103-11 0-2-
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I called them scummy for it early in this game when people were talking about it.In post 529, Michael Scott wrote:
I found this in your ISO, your progression from this to your latest read there seems highly unnatural.In post 372, u r a person 2 wrote:my town leans right now are
STW -tone,play I think TW is trying to use his experience modding and playing with me to read me and that's why he's asking me for my thoughts about specific posts.
Did you just notice that you were inferring who was authoring them? You had nothing to say when their (lack of) signing was a talking point of the game?
~Detective Michael Scarn
Then they stopped signing, but I could tell who was writing and I kind of felt that was their compromise, if that makes sense.
I don't understand why you think it is unnatural? I was expecting TW to want to see thought process in order to read me precisely because of our prior experience, so at the time that checked out. Now, having given him something to work with, Ithink it's likely that he finds a town read on me if he is town.
p.edit The other half of what? I'm not following, Mephisto103-11 0-2-
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at least half the time, not exactly half, but yesIn post 533, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:If tw tr you only 50% of the time, then he sr you the other 50%, correct?
So, if that is the case, why is him not tr you here, scummy?
It's a probability thing. Obviously I don't know exact probabilities, so there is a feel component but here's the basic idea
Let's say I think this hydra signing stuff comes from town!TW only 25% of the time, and I think town!TW get's a scum read on me 40% of the time. The chance of town!TW doing both of these things is (1/4)(4/10)=1/10=10%
This isn't a perfect model, of course, and I don't assign actual values to these when I make the assessment.
All of this is a long winded way of saying that the more things someone does that are less likely to come from town than scum, the more scummy they are103-11 0-2-
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could you sign this particular post, please?In post 544, Shoshin the worst wrote:Vars I'm finding it really worrying that you have never stopped to reconsider this read and mystically see no town motivation whatsoever in out iso. This is the kind of read day one which I identify as absolutely fake, I'm just not sure which alignment it comes from with you.
We've definitely towntold a few times in our iso. You've found nothing AT ALL which you think is towny and you're 80% sure we're scum who's just decided to put our pants on our head after rolling SCM1 and play like messy newbscum?
I think you're ignoring the differences in our play and possibly overcompensating for how badly SCM1 went when you disappeared.
because if it is real and you are town, I don't want to be hanged on the last read of Shoshin alone103-11 0-2-
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I'd be hurt, but I probably killed this npc 100 times. helps dull the pain ;PIn post 554, Varsoon wrote:the kinda unlikable name
Spoiler:103-11 0-2-
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I'm not going to point you to specific things because I'm not into self metaIn post 560, Shoshin the worst wrote:
Why did I pause my catchup.....In post 522, u r a person 2 wrote:@stw I thought you were done with this synchronized hydra nonsense but in retrospect you were just not signing and I was just inferring who was authoring the posts.
This is still scummy
also, I've given enough thought process that I think town!tw has a town read on me here at least 50% of the time
VOTE: shoshin the worst
URAP2, point me in the direction of where to look for towniness in your ISO?
But everything from me asking for people to wagon me until now is a good start103-11 0-2-
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The first is a read on TW's skill level that takes into account his experience with me. It's not a prelude to self meta analysisIn post 564, Shoshin the worst wrote:Why do you think town!tw townreads you here? Specifics please
Why do you think scum!tw doesn't townread you?
I think scum!tw certainly can town read me, and would do that some % of the time. I don't think scum!tw is terribly worried about pocketing me in this player set. I don't know what they are, but there are certainly past experiences between him and others that would have him prioritizing others. Part of that , or any other scum!strat that tw employs could involve not town reading me. Saying that I expect town!tw to town read me here does not insinuate that I think scum!tw scum reads me 100% of the time103-11 0-2-
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okay, i really don't like doing self meta, but you seem to be insisting
You seem to be reading me with a burden of proficiency when you, having watched and played with me should know that my early reads have been consistently awful.
I town read pintu out of the gate in 1907, didn't scum read yyotta
I scum read cheeky, and pvturist
In 1907 I townread urist before I pushed him, and then I prepared to jump off that wagon after getting reactions (evidence in pt)
I also town read FC for most of day 1
I scum read Elements for an error that was proven unmeaningful and I don't remember my other scum reads
In 1909 my d1 reads were good but basically because I town read teacher and just sort of sheeped him the rest of the way.
Where you should be burden of proficiency reading me, and where your vision of me comes from is post flip reads
I still don't want to go into details about this game in particular, just put this game up against the 1905 pt and find the read.103-11 0-2-
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I believe that there can be a town motivation for scumreading me. I didn't say town!you town!reads me 100%In post 577, Shoshin the worst wrote:I don't understand why you think there's no town motivation in our slot pushing/scumreading you. It's pretty simple. We scumread you.
The fact you can't engage with me about why we shouldn't scumread you or should townread you had me baffled.
We can post game why I'm not into reading myself in the thread. It basically boils down to the wifom/not wifom discussion you're in the middle of and my having no interest in having those types of discussions103-11 0-2-
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What I mean by bop is not that the reads are right or wrong necessarily, just that you seem to be setting a high bar, or bop, asking me to analyse what is a fairly nai post and wanting me to come up with the conclusion you had in mind. It feels like a trap, and it especially feels that way considering all of our history includes me coming up with bad reasons for reads early
Whatever. How about talking to me about Taly?
I'm starting to get this feeling that he came into the thread, made that play to get town cred, and is now coasting on that103-11 0-2-
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Am I not talking to TW right now? This is why this signing thing is annoying and scummy.In post 588, Shoshin the worst wrote:The problem we're having here is that you kicked off this rabbit hole discussion by voting us because you believe town!tw should be townreading you, plus the hydra dynamic which for the umpteenth time should not be deemed alignment indicative.
I'm trying to parse how you came to the conclusion that it's scum indicative for us to be scumreading you and pushing you just because the worst and you have history. I still do not understand your rationale here.
If you think TW should >rand be townreading you, we definitely need a better metric against which to measure your towntells, because it means what we are doing at the moment is on the wrong track.
This conversation is pretty important. If you do need to back out of it for holistic playstyle/meta reasons we understand but also please try to see that from our perspective, that leaves you joining out wagon late into its formation for almost exactly no reason...
I think I'm vote number 2 on you. I'm starting this wagon, not coming on late.
I think the most productive direction for me, and probably for town!you as well is for us to move on to a different topic.103-11 0-2-
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ProFlavor's game is remarkably light.
They are scum reading one person for lurking, me for voting a lurker, and T&L because they always town read them early, as far as I can recall.
They also have a bunch of naked town reads. Currently trying to engage that slot, but I don't have any reason to town read them
I'm still reading almost chara as town. They had that lynch pool early and I could understand the worldview they were living in to have that pool. Since then they have not stood out much to me, which means nothing pinged me.
Alchemist, I am currently sheeping a town read on. He's on the list to dig into. I'm sure you can see that I've been slowly hopping from one slot to the next103-11 0-2-
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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That depends on a lot of things, mainly how vigs and other similar roles are treated in a more meta sense on this siteIn post 628, Varsoon wrote:You really think STW would've claimed before getting shot?
P-EDIT:
I'm 100%
-V
I'm really just trying to ascertain if not asking for a claim or the sudden nature of your action is unusual, or standard so I can better understand the reactions of others to it103-11 0-2-
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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i'm not town reading stw if that's what you're sayingIn post 652, Tibor and Lumia wrote:You're town reading the slot, to my knowledge, how can that be svs?
-B
but also I think we're having a miscommunication.
You said that TW is scum and you voted me.
I'm asking if TW and me being svs is consistent with your current worldview, or if your scum read on me is entirely independent of your scum read on him.103-11 0-2-
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