Micro 991: Names on the List [game over!]

[Raya36]

VOTE: NotMafia

Why semi serious Dkkoba?

[Raya36]

I don't believe mafia get to night kill ever? They just write the doom list every second night

[Raya36]

The list would be extremely helpful near D4 for sure. I need to look into the doom counter more to see exactly how careful we need to be about list publishing.

Thank you for that insightful info NotMafia

[Raya36]

Is there reason to not use the list? I imagine the Doom Counter staying low as possible is a thing we can abuse. That actually makes it mountainous, though, which benefits slightly towards scum's benefit.

Yeah, probably should publish tomorrow.

That's a good point. I wasn't really thinking of the game as mountainous previously. We definitely need to make use of the list then.

Hol up so mafia cant kill?

Nope. First line of the set-up, no factional nightkill

[Raya36]

raya if u pocket me rn i promise not to push u today

Consider yourself pocketed

[Raya36]

NVM WE NEED TO USE LIST TOMORROW LOL

Depending upon when we publish the list we start to lose out on mis-eliminations. For example, if we never publish the list then the game is just a 6 vs 3 mountainous/nightless game and we get two mis-eliminations and lose on the third mis-elimination. If we mis-eliminate on day 1 and then publish the list on day 2, then we will lose on day 3 if we mis-eliminate again since the game would be 5 vs 3 with DC =1 at the beginning of the day, and after the second mis-elimination it becomes 4 vs 3 so we lose since DC = 1.

On the other hand, if we eliminate scum on day one and then publish the list on day two, then we can still afford to have two mis-eliminations down the road and we wouldn't lose until the third mis-elimination (at least if we don't publish the list again anyways). I haven't run through every scenario, but I don't think there's ever any downside to publishing the list the on day X+1 if we eliminated scum on day X. Whereas if we mis-eliminate on day X, publish the list on day X+1, and then mis-eliminate again on day X+2, then we lose.

So basically if we mis-elim today then we have to be extra careful in our decision to publish the list on D2 or not because another mis-elim would mean a loss.

[Raya36]

Hm that's actually pretty accurate

[Raya36]

If we can get scum today though it seems like we have a lot more room for lists to be published so that will definitely help

[Raya36]

damn raya i cant believe ur still modding mini 2157 xD

Oops looks like I gotta edit that

I am hardclaiming doom counter

aight well now that they're gone and the pressure is useless, might as well spill why i labeled this a scum opener:

a) aware of the mechanic, something scum might have fresher in their mind on their first post after getting their role pm
b) no vote associated with post. meaning the mechanic is much more fresh than putting down an rvs vote. a subtle slip if you may

This is an interesting view, not sure if I fully agree with knowing the mechanics being scum indicative. Could argue that town should be just as aware of the mechanics. The second point is interesting though.

i did a metadive for other reasons and noticed that that isn't the type of player they are.

Do they typically ignore mechanics or just less of a mechanics oriented player?

Will read page 4 when I have more time later

[Raya36]

Typed out a whole post and then accidentally deleted it

Gimli gets slight townpoints for immediately scumhunting above what the current gamestate is.

I had a hard scumread on DK in our first game together, but after a while I learned that he plays like that in both alignments. Nothing he said in this game, so far, is ai in my opinion.

This is something I very much agree with. DkKoba can be a difficult slot to read in my opinion and while their posts may not be completely AI so far I find it is quite difficult to read them early on just because of playstyle.

damn raya i cant believe ur still modding mini 2157 xD

Oops looks like I gotta edit that

I am hardclaiming doom counter

aight well now that they're gone and the pressure is useless, might as well spill why i labeled this a scum opener:

a) aware of the mechanic, something scum might have fresher in their mind on their first post after getting their role pm
b) no vote associated with post. meaning the mechanic is much more fresh than putting down an rvs vote. a subtle slip if you may

This is an interesting view, not sure if I fully agree with knowing the mechanics being scum indicative. Could argue that town should be just as aware of the mechanics. The second point is interesting though.

i did a metadive for other reasons and noticed that that isn't the type of player they are.

Do they typically ignore mechanics or just less of a mechanics oriented player?

Will read page 4 when I have more time later

well just like an early game of theirs I saw they ignored the IC mechanic in the old newbie setup. Whether or not you carefully read the setup is a personality thing.

That's an interesting observation although I'd take it with a grain of salt since it's an old game. I used to join games heavy in mechanics but avoid actually analyzing or strategizing mechanics like the plague. Now I try to put in more of an effort with mechanics. It's too bad we can't question them because it could just be something like that.

Volxen has seemed fine to me so far. I don't remember playing with him before so I don't know how he normally plays but the mechanics post was helpful for me at least.

It's a hemorrhagic pleasure to be here,

We have to make sure that this individual isn't scum or eliminate him as soon as possible:

VOTE: volxen

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

I feel like publishing the list is super-ev lol like they get to NK after it and put us into mylo for d2 if we dont get scum d1. Which kinda sucks

the doom counter is already harsh of an trade for town to give mafia an easy NK path idk lol

"Even-numbered Nights are skipped. On odd-numbered Nights, the Mafia must make a list of N living players in the game. N = the next Day's majority. For Night one, it would be a list of 5 people, for Night three it would be 4 and so on." oh ok nvm i can't read.


lol

ok ya we deffo using the list on d4 more likely

Vote count 1.01

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-03 15:00:00).

execution

Not_Mafia [2]:

Not_Mafia, Raya36

RedFlavor [1]:

DkKoba

Not Voting [6]:

clidd, Horsewoman, Ahsoka, volxen, RedFlavor, Radja

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ everyone has confirmed!

WAIT THERES 3 MAFIA???

NVM WE NEED TO USE LIST TOMORROW LOL

#townslip gang

me going from the thought process of 2 scum with NK to 3 scum no NK >>>>
explain where I faked this

It's not beyond your skillset to fake this.

gimli have you considered its RVS and that people who know eachother and have played with eachother are liklier to have implicit bias towards eachother? I tend to push people early who annoy me or who i dislike. It's easier and more natural for me. I don't tunnel them forever unless I genuinely scumread them. This is probably also true of raya wrt the lighter tone towards me - we've played together and i've played in a game she's modded. We're chill and don't wanna go at eachothers throats like that.

Just to add to this, I haven't played any games in a little while so it's nice to have some light friendly posts with players I've played with in the past before I really start scumhunting. I'll be sorting Koba, just not yet. (Plus as I mentioned I find them hard to read early on)

Radja is obvscum

Why's that?

Radja is obvscum

honestly I vibe with this NM read

^

[Raya36]

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

I usually push players who are vocally weaker compared to me as scum, and Volxen doesn't fit that criteria.

Unless I have a specific context for pushing a player that is vocally difficult to eliminate (as I did on partition with ABR)

I don't know Volxen but I'll keep this in mind. That was a long explanation to say that's not who you'd push as scum. Self-meta like that isn't something I read into much. For all I know the reason you're potentially setting up a push on volxen instead of the other options you gave is because the other options include your partners.

[Raya36]

What are your thoughts on Clidd, Ahsoka?

[Raya36]

So you don't have any strong read that you like to talk and that's ok because it's page 6 and I'm the villain for wanting to force something that theoretically you would not be able to deliver bc you're town and town don't have real reads early game. Is that it?

I don't like clidd twisting this to make it sound like he was being targeted. I never interpreted anything Ahsoka said as calling him a villain or even sussing him.
I'm going to move over here VOTE: clidd

pedit: I feel like a villain by the tone you approached the subject, but don't worry.

The tone felt fine to me too. Maybe just because it wasn't directed at me but I don't see how it made him feel like a villain.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

I usually push players who are vocally weaker compared to me as scum, and Volxen doesn't fit that criteria.

Unless I have a specific context for pushing a player that is vocally difficult to eliminate (as I did on partition with ABR)

After our last game together -- where we were both town and I incorrectly scumread you early on in the game because I was suspicious of your "easy" townread on me -- I think it's plausible that scum!you would be aggressive towards my slot and push me in the beginning. You know I'm skeptical of people who townread me if I can't follow their reasoning. So if anything, I would expect scum!you to err on the side of being too aggressive towards my slot (rather than whiteknight me), at least initially, because you could always pull back later and have your read of me "evolve" into a townread if I started to become more widely townread.

I don't know if scum!you would necessarily deathtunnel me, but I am convinced after our last game together that scum!you would be very cautious with things like the timing of when you might fake a townread on me and your fake reasons for doing so, because you know that I would call you out on it if I felt that your reasons for townreading me were not genuine.

So I don't buy this narrative at all that scum!you would always start off by pushing the less vocal slots.

Then this further supports my point earlier that clidd might be setting up a push.

[Raya36]

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

I usually push players who are vocally weaker compared to me as scum, and Volxen doesn't fit that criteria.

Unless I have a specific context for pushing a player that is vocally difficult to eliminate (as I did on partition with ABR)

After our last game together -- where we were both town and I incorrectly scumread you early on in the game because I was suspicious of your "easy" townread on me -- I think it's plausible that scum!you would be aggressive towards my slot and push me in the beginning. You know I'm skeptical of people who townread me if I can't follow their reasoning. So if anything, I would expect scum!you to err on the side of being too aggressive towards my slot (rather than whiteknight me), at least initially, because you could always pull back later and have your read of me "evolve" into a townread if I started to become more widely townread.

I don't know if scum!you would necessarily deathtunnel me, but I am convinced after our last game together that scum!you would be very cautious with things like the timing of when you might fake a townread on me and your fake reasons for doing so, because you know that I would call you out on it if I felt that your reasons for townreading me were not genuine.

So I don't buy this narrative at all that scum!you would always start off by pushing the less vocal slots.

You basically said what I wanted to hear. I would suspect if you ignored the connection to our past game, even though you were in hydra shape there. The premise of scum!Clidd cautiously suspecting town!Volxen for knowing how the town!Volxen townread process works is correct.

So you're confirming my suspicions earlier were valid now that you're called out, when earlier you denied that you would try to go after Volxen.

[Raya36]

I'm not buying that everything was just a reaction test

[Raya36]

What exactly did Volxen calling out your lie about not pushing him do? Why would scum!Volxen ignore that? (besides you two being partners). How does calling it out make him townier?

[Raya36]

I get that but I'm talking about the specific context of him calling out your lie about you not pushing him. Regardless of his alignment, him calling you out on that is truth therefore you wouldn't be able to detect that superficiality if he was scum and it should be genuine.

[Raya36]

I agree that there's quite an apparent difference in those two posts but what makes his post in question fit into either category when it's truthful regardless of alignment. The reasoning is good of course and it looks more like the town example but that could simply be because it's the truth. There's no reason for him to lie about that as scum which would make it very easy to even unintentionally fake the town example.

[Raya36]

The way I'm seeing it is that you got called out and now you're pretending it was a reaction test all along, reason being that I don't see how that particular reaction test can give you a a reaction pointing either way since all he gave was a truth that he has no reason to hide regardless of alignment. And while I get that his post appears more like his town posts, there is reason for this besides him being town and I don't think you should be townreading him for that.

[Raya36]

So you are saying that he can sound towny because he is addressing a topic where he would not need to lie regardless of alignment and me having a tr on him at this point based on impressions of genuine is not valid because he can be scum being genuine and he called me out correctly in my line of action as scum!clidd and now i'm pretending it was part of my plan to get a reaction from him. I got it.

Yeah I'm saying I don't think your townread for that particular post is valid as the genuity is not AI in this case. And that it makes no sense that you used something that would give an NAI reaction as a reaction test so I'm having a hard time buying it was a planned reaction test from the start. I'm not saying you predicted his response and planned everything. Just that it doesn't make sense to me as a reaction test.

[Raya36]

I'm not entirely sure what I think of you yet. I don't know if that was just imperfect logic from town or a fabricated reaction test that ended up not making much sense or something of the sort. I think what I'm stuck on is someone earlier said Volxen is a good player to buddy when you're scum and I kind of got the impression that you were potentially setting up a push and then when he matched his town posting you went for the other route of buddying without really thinking about whether that post was truly AI.

[Raya36]

It seems to me that you are coming from the conclusion "clidd is scum" and how my actions would fit into this scenario. Idk why I think this is towny coming from you.

But I don't think you'll be able to read me while talking to me about this thing. You may need to watch how I play and decide whether your initial impression is valid or not.

Yeah, maybe best to let it go for the time being.

[Raya36]

Don't you think it is inconsistent for scum!Radja to not follow a vote in his elimination pool and sound dissonant by voting you?

I read it more genuine than that. Makes sense to want to sort someone null that has some traction right now?

[Raya36]

Don't you think it is inconsistent for scum!Radja to not follow a vote in his elimination pool and sound dissonant by voting you?

I read it more genuine than that. Makes sense to want to sort someone null that has some traction right now?

No.

Why not?

[Raya36]

Raises Dkk because they also saw Radja being opportunistic.

Gimli switching is town.

So Gimli/Dkk both town, likely, that's 50% town block already then.

Ahsoka seems like a bit of an oddball type of player, and as an oddball myself I sympathize with how hard it is sometimes to make yourself understood. That is to say I might have been too hasty in identifying the oddity of her posting as scummy, and a post such as this appears to have layers of genuine solvey thought processes. It's not a strong read but I've been liking the way she responded to all the pressure.

This feels like a thought process coming from town. If Ahsoka's post style makes them appear scummy it'd probably be more likely of scum to either push or at the very least not point out towniness. This isn't strong, but still leaning towards town.


I like horsewoman for town so far. Maybe it's just a playstyle thing but the slight aggressiveness doesn't come across as forced and I like her thoughts.

@Gimli - why do you town read clidd?

Also, liking Horsewoman's catchup. Should I be afraid she's trying to pocket?

I'm kind of thinking this is Dkk scum too.

Eh, there wasn't much that seemed like it could have been pocketing you from my pov plus I like her catchup too.

Gimli's playing pretty differently than he did in our game together. And by that I mean worse. I think paradoxically that makes him more likely to be town here? He's producing less reads and less analysis but that might be because he's only producing genuine reads/analysis. Want to see more from him.

If that game is over, was Gimli scum in that game? Just trying to understand what you mean about the quantity of reads/analysis.

Don't you think it is inconsistent for scum!Radja to not follow a vote in his elimination pool and sound dissonant by voting you?

I read it more genuine than that. Makes sense to want to sort someone null that has some traction right now?

I mean more in the sense that this would be a line that I think Scum!Radja would try to avoid.

Ah I see, misinterpreted that.

a couple of things are bothering me with this string of posts:

- Volxen as third town. I checked volxen's post as scum that clidd posted here and it's not comparatively that different from his entrances in this game. His explanation on why dkkoba's early game stuff is towny is certainly crafty, but it's still superficial and easy to make as scum if you have all the tools that volxen clearly has. That post about dkkoba misses that dkkoba can just be doing things on a whim as scum which makes all logic moot. It's also making points that are too unnecessary, like discussing the possibility of dkkoba 'pre-planning' those posts and how that is only possible if we're both scum. It's pretty but it is not solvey. His posts to clidd aren't towny either. And since clidd is townreading all of that stuff, I can't help but wonder if the whole thing isn't staged.

- the votes on radja being possible busses don't feel right as an argument here. clidd is supposedly townreading that radja reads list, so when he talks about bussing (and gives it 30% odds which is very high actually) it feels artificial that his head went there instead of thinking radja looks like someone scum wants to eliminate. and since this is a 6v3 setting, 'bussing' shouldn't be something we're truly considering until people flip. In fact, I don't know where the scum are exactly but I'm almost sure there's powerwolfing going on in this game.

I don't wanna pile on clidd and I want to give this time for me to reevaluate but this last string of posting makes me feel clidd might be scum after all.

This is another post by Gimli I really like. It shows an in depth solving thought process. The suspicion of Volxen seems genuine and not something forced from scum although I'm not sure I agree that it's staged with Clidd. I'm agreeing with his points on radja as well. I honestly haven't gotten a strong impression from him yet but if he's town then he is a very easy miselim target at the current gamestate and I agree that it's odd Clidd didn't come to this conclusion first considering the townread on him. (I also have thoughts on the related question directed at Gimli but I don't want to steal it).

[Raya36]

Eh, there wasn't much that seemed like it could have been pocketing you from my pov plus I like her catchup too.

I disagree.

Then what seemed like pocketing to you?

I'll take a closer look at the Ahsoka/Koba interaction later when I'm less tired.

I honestly haven't gotten a strong impression from him yet but if he's town then he is a very easy miselim target at the current gamestate and I agree that it's odd Clidd didn't come to this conclusion first considering the townread on him.

I don't know if it was possible to absorb this in my explanation, but the scenario of scum wanting to miselim him was something that came to my mind primarily. The buss scenario, which came as a secondary, was an alternative interpretation that I considered as more improbable by comparison, but not impossible.

Why not mention the first scenario of a miselim?

If that game is over, was Gimli scum in that game? Just trying to understand what you mean about the quantity of reads/analysis.

I was scum if she didn't answer already. Her read on me in this game (worse posting as town indicative) is one of the reasons I'm strong townreading horsewoman here. Seems like the right kind of read to make anyway.

Thanks, in that case the logic is sound and I was already town leaning assuming that post made sense.

[Raya36]

I'll do some more actual analysis tonight

[Raya36]

Sorry for the long post, catching up

i faked a townlean on you early on to see how you'd react. now i see that your read on me has progressed based on what the vibe was of my read on you. you avoided me when i was being buddy then when i was starting to express doubt you started to pivot. I notice these things.

This is quite interesting. Would you mind outlining the progression you saw form Clidd here?

i think its not worth pushing volxen rn because they give me the impression of a player who thrives better when not pushed on. And if theyre scum they'll either scumtell hard or spew partners. (Or be spewed via a flip)

also im biased cause they correctly outlined my thought process uwu

this is funny. why are you saying this when raja is pushing clidd, and none of them are presenting a scumread on volxen, quite the contrary? who was pushing volxen to make this post sensible?

what do you think of clidd?

silence scum

I'll never understand why scum always wanna take the route of calling me "bad town"
Cool lmao pocket denied.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

ur obsession with me towntelling over scumhunting concerns me, esp since im already obvtown!

im obvtown

i have a tinfoil that clidd is a deepwolf. with 3 scum slots to fill he does fit into a 3rd scum player trying to play the "towny" scum role.

I think these are some of the posts that I think are scummy.

It is not quite rational, but something else that I am extracting by tone.

It's been a bit since I've played with Koba but this honestly just feels like how Koba usually posts. I could be wrong here but these posts look like normal NAI Koba posts.

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

Why Gimli?

Dk is messing with my head in a very similar way to Ahsoka earlier. I hate it when people play with my perception. Maybe that's the thing that Raya and Gimli are feeling about me.

For me it's just that from everything I've seen so far you show the best chances at having a hidden agenda. There's been several times that I or others have pointed out a potential agenda in your posts and I'm having a hard time seeing past that. There were some posts I've liked though like ending the 1v1 with Koba and moving on to someone else.

I can agree on Raya/Ahsoka being on town PoE, but horsewoman is a slot that you should probably revisit, it's not someone I'm very confident about.

Didn't you just vote Ahsoka? But you agree with them being town?

Why not mention the first scenario of a miselim?

Raya, I don't remember if I addressed this directly in my posts, but it was the dominant impression I had in mind. I expressed this indirectly in post 304 when I speculated a scum!hw angle.

Thanks, that helps with trying to understand the thought process there.

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

the way this is my exact GtH solve rn

This sort of interaction is the sort I'd usually say wouldn't be between two scum but I think it has a high chance of being so here. That's because the setup of 3 scum out of 9 heavily incentivizes the scum to buddy up and stick together, because if all 3 are going the same way they only need 2 town to join them. So basically I'm saying that bussing is incredibly unlikely and scum overtly allying is much more possible.

I fully agree with your sentiment but not this particular case. I think they'd be a little more stealthy about it and this interaction really sticks out, especially with how few posts NM has.

Something I'm suspicious of with Koba is someone (I think Clidd but I can't remember) called them out for not playing their typical aggressive townplay. Koba claimed that's not how they play anymore but then I saw a huge change in attitude from Koba over the next few pages and the more aggressive play came out. Scum trying to appeal? Gimli still seems fine to me in context of the read on Horsewoman. This looks like Koba forcing a tunnel.
I think it's time I move away from Clidd anyway, VOTE: Koba


Stealing this format so I know who I gotta reread:
townpool: Gimli, Horsewoman
don't know: Ahsoka, NM, Lostego, Radja
scumpool: Clidd, Koba

[Raya36]

Koba gives me scumvibes sometimes but I agree with their reads so meh

You mean scumvibes sometimes this game or just in general?

For me it's just that from everything I've seen so far you show the best chances at having a hidden agenda. There's been several times that I or others have pointed out a potential agenda in your posts and I'm having a hard time seeing past that. There were some posts I've liked though like ending the 1v1 with Koba and moving on to someone else.

I said more in the sense that you have to force your mind to constantly evaluate me, as I think that you're town in good faith. I don't have a hidden agenda, but I understand that if this was something interpreted about me by more than one person, it was probably something wrong that I transmitted unintentionally (and that I hope to be able to correct). At least I transmitted some positive ai particles to you with that earlier interaction with Koba (that I don't think would have a good outcome if extended).

If you are town then I do hope you're able to correct that as well.

Didn't you just vote Ahsoka? But you agree with them being town?

I don't remember if I got to share my thoughts, but that was a conclusion I had before in post 446, but I just removed the vote later.

I'm still not following why you voted Ahsoka there? Unless I'm horribly misinterpreting, you had a townread on Ahsoka almost immediately after the vote? I do get that you scumread them in the quoted posts in your next post but that was long before this vote and then just a few hours later you were suddenly townreading Ahsoka? Where's the progression?

what i want to ask those who are actually listening what hypothetical partner would allow koba to post or play in this type of way in a 9-player game. the PoE will eventually become very narrow and this is not the type of game for chaotic scumplay to be successful.

I don't think their hypothetical partners could do much about it to be honest

Something I'm suspicious of with Koba is someone (I think Clidd but I can't remember) called them out for not playing their typical aggressive townplay. Koba claimed that's not how they play anymore but then I saw a huge change in attitude from Koba over the next few pages and the more aggressive play came out. Scum trying to appeal? Gimli still seems fine to me in context of the read on Horsewoman. This looks like Koba forcing a tunnel.
I think it's time I move away from Clidd anyway, VOTE: Koba

not focusing on koba but instead what you mentioned about gimil/horsewoman because that's been something that i've been focusing on as well. i mentioned horsewoman's displayed apathy and i dont think it makes sense and seems a bit exaggerated. from what i gather, gimil responded to me that no, he does not read horsewoman based on experience, yet his ISO doesn't determine anything to state otherwise. his read on horsewoman seems more like a comfort, but part of me is starting to think that if gimil were to be scum then he is only latching onto that familiarity. i actally think it's decently obscene how much he seems to want horsewoman to play or to show up early in his posts. what do you think of this?

This is an interesting take. There is certainly a good chance that it's a comfort read since she's the only player he has familiarity with. My read on Horsewoman is very tonal based. I have other reasons such as her catchup which I liked. I was under the impression Gimli had a similar (semi-weak) reasoning for that read as well which seems fine to me. I don't see why it should've attracted that much attention from Koba. Also I don't think the early focus on Horsewoman was unnatural. There's a likely possibility that because Horsewoman is who he is familiar with, he is subconsciously fixated on her absence. So essentially I don't believe latching onto the familiarity of Horsewoman is necessarily AI.

Not liking the push on NM. Anyone who knows his play is well aware it won't go anywhere D1.

[Raya36]

Koba's return/reset seems ok gonna UNVOTE: for now. Happy to talk about any players if you want, Koba.

@clidd re 644, that clears a lot up actually. I am interested in how those small town pings completely changed them from a scum lean to a town lean. To be more specific why did you say that you expect town!Ahsoka's thoughts to align with yours (also one of the reasons for the new townlean).

Not liking the push on NM. Anyone who knows his play is well aware it won't go anywhere D1.

I agree, although he is in most of my PoE scenarios as scum.

That for sure makes sense, but for any player other than NM. Unless NM does something amazing I'm happy to join you on them D2 but we both know nothing is going to come of that vote D1.

[Raya36]

Koba's return/reset seems ok gonna UNVOTE: for now. Happy to talk about any players if you want, Koba.

@clidd re 644, that clears a lot up actually. I am interested in how those small town pings completely changed them from a scum lean to a town lean. To be more specific why did you say that you expect town!Ahsoka's thoughts to align with yours (also one of the reasons for the new townlean).

Not liking the push on NM. Anyone who knows his play is well aware it won't go anywhere D1.

I agree, although he is in most of my PoE scenarios as scum.

That for sure makes sense, but for any player other than NM. Unless NM does something amazing I'm happy to join you on them D2 but we both know nothing is going to come of that vote D1.

I can try to go into all details about the process of my read on him, in case you really want me to pass everything from my mind to the keyboard, but I don't know how long it will take.

Regarding what I said about me expecting his thoughts to align with mine, I believe that town!He should not interpret things too far from the angle that I cannot see, in the sense that if there is compatibility between my understanding of that he is seeing and his perception of the game, it is less likely that he is trying to conceal a narrative to reconcile with an intentional/malicious read, which is one of the reasons why I believe he is trying to solve the game in a non biased-scum way, at least until now.

This is my last reference to town!him, which is our past game together:

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=83046&user_select%5B%5D=30197

But I believe that there are variations due to the fact that he's playing a character here, so I'm still keeping my eyes open.

That's not necessary considering how long that could take. This is the main explanation I was looking for. Is the idea that his thoughts should align with yours specific to him based on experience together/meta, or was that a more general comment concerning what you would expect of town!anyone?

[Raya36]

My unsorted are Ahsoka, NM, Lostego, and Radja. If any of you are around tonight I'd love to talk about reads with you.

[Raya36]

Radja is scum

Care to discuss why?

Thank you clidd, I still need to sort Ahsoka, so assuming this was all in good faith from you it may help.

[Raya36]

How so?

[Raya36]

For the sake of transparency the reason I voted was for what appeared to be a forced tunnel in response to being called out for their unusual play. I still believe this is a possibility but their recent reset is leading me to think maybe clidd is right and they're just anti-town. Either way I unvoted mainly because Koba is taking a bit of a break so staying there is useless.

[Raya36]

Post 660 great post, really genuine and plausible explanation for thought and reasoning progression. Very greenposting.

Kinda suspicious of this being pocketing

fwiw i think horsewoman and gimli are same alignment. either they're both scum or both town. if the list were to confirm one cant be scum, the other cant be either IMO.

What makes you say they are the same alignment?

people who aren't koba: is koba actually just like this? people who know him are like, null?

This is typical Koba. I'm still a little worried about the change in pace after their playstyle being pointed out but outside of that everything seems normal.

[Raya36]

Gonna attempt to sort some of my unsorted players. Sorry for the long post.

NM:
Not much to take from his posts. I do find the Radja fixation weird. I know typical NM won't explain any reads D1 so it's pretty tough to follow any progression but there appears to be none on this read. Also don't like the Radja/Gimli/Horse solve. I haven't sorted Radja yet but the other two appear town to me. NM is still null, leaning scum if anything (although this is in part due to PoE, not just the few concerns mentions).

Radja:
Not much here from Radja either. His 251 is alright, however vague. It was early in the game though. I don't really agree with his points on Koba being scummy just because I know Koba would do that as town, but the analysis still seems fine without maybe knowing Koba super well. I still think voting for someone in the idkpool was a good play. I feel like scum would be more conscious of their vote needing to make perfect sense. As well as this scum want to focus on a miselim, not sort their nulls. I wish more came of it though to back this up. It's difficult for me to analyze the post about me since it's just describing why he thought I was town but the reasons he posted made sense and were things I did in fact do. A couple of things there I could have easily done regardless of my alignment but he still makes a point of something that would be harder for me to have done as scum which shows a scumhunting attitude rather than just making up reads. Radja seems fine to me as a light townread. He hasn't done anything substantial but nothing pinged me as scummy either.

Lostego:
I don't remember having strong impression of volxen so I'll just focus on Lostego here. The first thing I noticed in his iso is his reads are very tonal based. "overly simulated", "condescending". Nothing wrong with this as early reads which is what they are. Just taking note of this in case it continues. Those are very easy reads for scum to make to avoid having to actually fake scumhunting and analysis. 399, what was the point in telling NM they can join the scumpool if they unvote radja by p16? If you genuinely think that NM and radja could be partners then why very clearly tell NM what to do to avoid your suspicions. I just don't see the purpose of posting that. I do like the sort of reanalysis being initiated in 407. It could be faked of course but it shows that there is thought going into his reads. I don't quite get the thought of radja being consensus? Maybe I just wasn't paying attention but I never got the impression he was consensus at any point? I do like the sudden reevaluation of radja thought instead of potentially just pushing for a miselim. The NM vote was bad and encouraging a wagon there was bad, I already explained why. I am assuming lostego is familiar with NM. I really like what he said about gimli and horsewomen in his most recent post. I don't completely agree as I explained already but it does show a deeper level of analysis which is especially better than what I was concerned with in his early iso. Overall I'm not super happy with Lostego's iso. It's not bad enough to call him scum but he's certainly not in my town/townlean pools.

Ahsoka:
Their first few posts were all mechanics or fluff which is NAI to me. 147 is a good take but not AI. I thought at first they might have been a bit overdefensive about not having reads but it seems to be more just their normal tone/playstyle so I no longer think this is the case. In the clidd/Ahsoka interaction I found myself taking Ahsoka's side my first read through which you can see a bit of in my discussion with clidd around then. If this hypothetically was a TvS situation I believe Ahsoka would be the town. I also agree with the points made against clidd during that interaction. The concern of horsewoman pocketing seemed town to me as it shows a natural suspicion town should have when being praised etc. This could just be how horsewoman expresses their points though as I just felt the same way from her in my last catchup. (Kind of unrelated to Ahsoka but seeing that just made me realize that). 366 was a good take as well. More good-play-indicative than town-indicative though. I'm having a hard time reading the bulk of the Koba/Ahsoka interaction. I may come back to it another time. I'm interested to hear more of the Koba/me pairing they mentioned recently. Ahsoka gets a town read.

New list: (all in order of strength)
Town: Gimli, Ahsoka
Townlean: Horse, Radja
Null: NM, Koba
Scumlean: Lostego
Scum: Clidd

Moving here for a bit
VOTE: Lostego

[Raya36]

That's reasonable. I was quite fluffy at the start of this game as well as many others. What do you mean by to the naked eye? Is there some hidden meaning I missed?

[Raya36]

all i have to say raya and to some extent gimil that what youre reading of me is too. i must come clean and say that i barely read what i missed. tonal introspection and just feeling the gamestate is almost always the first stance i will take on replacement.

That explains the tonal reads at least. I still stand by the rest of my read on you though.

gimil was able to able to call my bluff however and noted that not everyone was just consensus on radja. this was not a play or anything ridiculous like that, i just let myself get thoughts out when they come to see how the playing field were respond even if its not very researched. his reconsideration of horsewoman makes me feel more pleasant about him however, because i agree with the conclusions he's made and i always was interested in sorting the two of them.

what i am paying attention though is koba's newfound restraint and n_m's blind confidence. i will not simply say that n_m is excused for being n_m because in off chance that he flips scum i imagine he will just take the ball and roll with it. you can apply the same argument to flavor leaf as well. do i think that ahsoka/n_m are prime suspects merely because their reactivity to the thread is less? no, but i do think it's somewhat telling.

Even if that was not well researched the closest to consensus radja got to was 2 votes max if I recall correctly. Sure you didn't just want us to believe there was more consensus than true? I do remember there was some suspicion but not that many votes behind it so that lie is possible to pull off.
Ahsoka has felt fine to me in that sense however I do agree that NM's lower post count can be telling considering what his posts are. NM may be scum here but he's never really a good D1 target in my opinion. I'm not opposed to eliminating him but I'd much prefer trying to get a better read D2 when he should be more active, then making that call then.

[Raya36]

That's reasonable. I was quite fluffy at the start of this game as well as many others. What do you mean by to the naked eye? Is there some hidden meaning I missed?

Yes, but most people don't see its purpose of creating a stick in the gamestate for people to atmosphere around, and easing pressure when necessary, these ebbs and flow in the gamestate is the key to filtering out who scum is.

Yeah I suppose most people wouldn't look at it that way. An interesting take on fluff. Plus the game does have to start somewhere.

Welcome to the game infinity. Why do you think my read on radja is bad and what do you dislike about my push on Koba?
I disagree with almost everything you said in that entry.

Gonna attempt to sort some of my unsorted players. Sorry for the long post.

Spoiler:

NM:
Not much to take from his posts. I do find the Radja fixation weird. I know typical NM won't explain any reads D1 so it's pretty tough to follow any progression but there appears to be none on this read. Also don't like the Radja/Gimli/Horse solve. I haven't sorted Radja yet but the other two appear town to me. NM is still null, leaning scum if anything (although this is in part due to PoE, not just the few concerns mentions).

Radja:
Not much here from Radja either. His 251 is alright, however vague. It was early in the game though. I don't really agree with his points on Koba being scummy just because I know Koba would do that as town, but the analysis still seems fine without maybe knowing Koba super well. I still think voting for someone in the idkpool was a good play. I feel like scum would be more conscious of their vote needing to make perfect sense. As well as this scum want to focus on a miselim, not sort their nulls. I wish more came of it though to back this up. It's difficult for me to analyze the post about me since it's just describing why he thought I was town but the reasons he posted made sense and were things I did in fact do. A couple of things there I could have easily done regardless of my alignment but he still makes a point of something that would be harder for me to have done as scum which shows a scumhunting attitude rather than just making up reads. Radja seems fine to me as a light townread. He hasn't done anything substantial but nothing pinged me as scummy either.

Lostego:
I don't remember having strong impression of volxen so I'll just focus on Lostego here. The first thing I noticed in his iso is his reads are very tonal based. "overly simulated", "condescending". Nothing wrong with this as early reads which is what they are. Just taking note of this in case it continues. Those are very easy reads for scum to make to avoid having to actually fake scumhunting and analysis. 399, what was the point in telling NM they can join the scumpool if they unvote radja by p16? If you genuinely think that NM and radja could be partners then why very clearly tell NM what to do to avoid your suspicions. I just don't see the purpose of posting that. I do like the sort of reanalysis being initiated in 407. It could be faked of course but it shows that there is thought going into his reads. I don't quite get the thought of radja being consensus? Maybe I just wasn't paying attention but I never got the impression he was consensus at any point? I do like the sudden reevaluation of radja thought instead of potentially just pushing for a miselim. The NM vote was bad and encouraging a wagon there was bad, I already explained why. I am assuming lostego is familiar with NM. I really like what he said about gimli and horsewomen in his most recent post. I don't completely agree as I explained already but it does show a deeper level of analysis which is especially better than what I was concerned with in his early iso. Overall I'm not super happy with Lostego's iso. It's not bad enough to call him scum but he's certainly not in my town/townlean pools.

Ahsoka:
Their first few posts were all mechanics or fluff which is NAI to me. 147 is a good take but not AI. I thought at first they might have been a bit overdefensive about not having reads but it seems to be more just their normal tone/playstyle so I no longer think this is the case. In the clidd/Ahsoka interaction I found myself taking Ahsoka's side my first read through which you can see a bit of in my discussion with clidd around then. If this hypothetically was a TvS situation I believe Ahsoka would be the town. I also agree with the points made against clidd during that interaction. The concern of horsewoman pocketing seemed town to me as it shows a natural suspicion town should have when being praised etc. This could just be how horsewoman expresses their points though as I just felt the same way from her in my last catchup. (Kind of unrelated to Ahsoka but seeing that just made me realize that). 366 was a good take as well. More good-play-indicative than town-indicative though. I'm having a hard time reading the bulk of the Koba/Ahsoka interaction. I may come back to it another time. I'm interested to hear more of the Koba/me pairing they mentioned recently. Ahsoka gets a town read.

New list: (all in order of strength)
Town: Gimli, Ahsoka
Townlean: Horse, Radja
Null: NM, Koba
Scumlean: Lostego
Scum: Clidd

Moving here for a bit
VOTE: Lostego

NM is hardly going to leave the null zone unless he does something, I agree. I'm considering resolving it by PoE, depending on the conclusions I have about other players.

Radja seems to be someone who can potentially make mistakes in both alignments, but as I mentioned in post 301, it also depends on whether he shows more dissonance as town or scum. My read on him is a mixture of interpretation of emotional + rational behavior, but outside that angle, I couldn't find any more reasons to expand what I think. He lacks more engagement with the game.

Hum, I need to do an ISO analysis of Lostego before commenting on what I think about your points. This is something I would have been able to do if I didn't have some problems in my energy levels recently. I hope to be able to do it by tomorrow.

Your impressions of Ahsoka are decent, although the presumption of a possible tvs scenario between me and Ahsoka having scum!me vs town!Ahsoka does not strike me as impartial in the third person evaluative sense, but if I consider that I am one of you bigger suspects, it’s normal for bias to point to a scenario that makes more sense with me being scum to you.

I'm a but nervous leaving NM fully to PoE. There's a high potential some of my townreads are wrong. But we don't really have much of a choice until he does something as you said.
My town lean on Radja is very weak for those reasons. The town lean so far is mainly coming from him not being scummy rather than being particularly towny. Those in my null list have made me jump between alignments on them and those in the scum pools have given me reasons to believe that they could be scum.
I will admit to probably having some bias from my read on you in that potential tvs situation with Ahsoka. If I didn't previously scumread you from that situation than I likely wouldn't guess at tvs.

[Raya36]

Welcome Amélie

@Infinity I'd appreciate an explanation about your thoughts on Radja once you get a chance. As I said, my read is very light so maybe understanding your thoughts will help. I'm also hoping Amélie's content will help figure this slot out and give more to work with.

I definitely am not the best at reading Koba. That's why they're in my null pool. If I'm going to push something though I'm likely to push with some extent of confidence or else the likelihood of the push creating a useful reaction is less. I believe I did say after the fact that I'm unsure if their change in attitude was scummy or anti-town behavior and I think I also mentioned after the fact that it was a weak reason.

[Raya36]

A lot of lostego's posts give me a lot of pause and IDK if it's because they're scum or just replaced in and are too unattached from the game to post properly, but there are things like asking ahsoka what is he 'hiding' and then #494 that just vibe strangely for me. there are good things as well so it's a mixed bag of meh.

I very much agree with this.

the thing about radja is that while they're pretty POE'd down as scum, ahsoka and everyone else that pointed so are right that this is the most LHF slot in the game and it makes a lot of sense that all of those strong pushes are just looking for a miselim. this is not how we should evaluate radja though, but rather on the likelyhood of them being scum without such associatives.

Radja felt fine to me when I did my iso of him so I'm a little worried this is the case. An inactive slot being targeted for a miselim.

Spoiler:

Vote count 1.01

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-03 15:00:00).

execution

Not_Mafia [2]:

Not_Mafia, Raya36

RedFlavor [1]:

DkKoba

Not Voting [6]:

clidd, Horsewoman, Ahsoka, volxen, RedFlavor, Radja

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ everyone has confirmed!

WAIT THERES 3 MAFIA???

#townslip gang

Hol up so mafia cant kill?

This felt really fake and I am concerned with other people's reactions to it because none of them looked even slightly surprised.

I never think much of townslips, especially obvious ones since they can so easily be faked

raya if u pocket me rn i promise not to push u today

Consider yourself pocketed

This interaction also feels fake. I'm considering scum theatre as a possibility here.

Koba and I have played a bunch in the past. Just early game fluff

Ok I bleieve your townslip

I hate this but it does feel more like a confused townie than scum theatre.

I definitely agree with this sentiment

who you choose to be friends with says a lot abt u.

motivation for this game coincidentally just dropped 90%.

lowkey can i just policy ur slot lmfao

I'm not sure entirely what this is about but I find this particularly rude.

Maybe other people just read the set-ups they're playing

Interesting. I agree with Not Mafia here. In my last game with him, I couldn't remember a single thing he said that I agreed with.

Hullo! Hope you're all having a great christmas.

It turns out that DKkoba's theory was wrong and redflavor's opened came from town. I liked the theory, I think it's towny that dk thought this long and hard about it, and part of me was just curious enough to know so I decided to replace in when the chance appeared.

This feels show-y. I took a brief glance at the game before I replaced in and was also curious what alignment Radja was but I wasn't planning to say it. This can go in my null for now.

I had a hard scumread on DK in our first game together, but after a while I learned that he plays

like that

in both alignments. Nothing he said in this game, so far, is ai in my opinion.

Please pay attention to pronouns.
What do you mean by "they play like that in both alignments"?
Specifically, what is "that"

Many of Gimli's reads in relation to DK seem like things that I could manufacture as scum to push someone, but I still believe that there is a scenario where he is not used to DK and, by default, interpreted his entire line of action as too weird to be town. I'm waiting to see which way my impression on him will go.

I agree with Gimli on Dkkoba.

last post of the day is a retraction of that ahsoka townlean after much consideration.

in fact I think her entrances in the thread are very bad with the flow of everything and point to scum.

will develop on this read tomorrow.

VOTE: ahsoka

I dislike the timing of this. It is right after clidd says Ashoka isn't obvtowning.

Reads look like this right now:

Town: Redflavor, Not Mafia
Null: Clidd, Gimli
Scum: Dkkoba, Raya36

Gimli and Ashoka's avatars are very similar and I apologize in advance if I start mixing them up.

DK is the type of person who is easily misunderstood if you don't like their post flow, and is a very sensitive slot in terms of what can be considered AI or not. I would say that none of their posts so far have given me the impression of "this is town!DK" or "this is scum!DK", which is why I am warning you (assuming you are town, of course ) to keep an open mind towards them.

What is ai for them then?

Koba can be very difficult to read due to their playstyle. I've played several games with them and still suck at it

gimli basically is approaching my slot in the worst faith possible, and anyone who is skeptical of me = towny.

thats how u can sum up their reading process.

this isnt how town approaches reads.
this is how scum discredits.


as soon as clidd pointed out that this is NAI for me > pivoted off.

this implies clidd is not aligned with gimli(like 50% sure, but gun to head would bet on not teammates rn)

clidd, as someone who plays at tables with myself in every game I play, I know that that is exactly what scum does in relation to my slot very often when they do not know me. Those that know me will more often attempt to pocket me as that's my weakness, or something in between if they're especially smart(pooky from coalition a few months ago comes to mind).

im a bit of a self aware player. I know what's scummy. I know whats towny. I know whats NAI. If you think you have caught me being scummy it better be because my reads are horseshit, not some NAI garbage like a townslip. Can I fake them? Yeah. But the reason I do is because i genuinely make them regularly as town(and sometimes i fake them as town too). Basically, even if I were scum here, I would have posted nearly the same exact thing. But it could have been slightly different depending on partners. If you really care about sorting me i have games where I show that lines like this are NAI, just read my history lmfao. I won't ever push meta that says im outside my scumrange, but I will push meta that what you're pushing is fully NAI.


anyways self meta over -

gimli have you considered its RVS and that people who know eachother and have played with eachother are liklier to have implicit bias towards eachother? I tend to push people early who annoy me or who i dislike. It's easier and more natural for me. I don't tunnel them forever unless I genuinely scumread them. This is probably also true of raya wrt the lighter tone towards me - we've played together and i've played in a game she's modded. We're chill and don't wanna go at eachothers throats like that.

I will say the ashoka vote isn't bad, that entrance is pretty flimsy. I'd rather figure out if this is just playstyle > scum being unsure and playing aloof. but lets play with it VOTE: ashoka

You say Gimli is approaching in terrible faith but then vote the person Gimli is voting. Why is that?
If I remembered correctly, Gimli is the one with the entrance I found show-y and Ashoka is the one that I can't remember anything about but both have similar avatars.

Radja is obvscum

I would like an explanation on this.

It reflects me as malicious, but not explicitly. It is a personal feeling.

I already made some posts of mech stuff (as scum) and even though it should be seen naturally as nai, I noticed that some players seemed to trust me more.

Here: viewtopic.php?p=11811488#p11811488

Not saying it is scummy, but in the context of Volxen, who is a very competent player as scum, it gave me a shiver.

I remember other example too about I correctly scumreading scum with the same feeling, but I need to take a look to see if I can find the game.

I have never seen someone make a mech post likely due to me not playing any complicated games like this one but I don't see how it would make anyone look more towny.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

This is really a stretch. My scumread here stands.

I actually do agree with you that it was a bit of a stretch but the timing and almost exaggerated change in playstyle is hard to ignore. Koba still remains in my null pool due to this being a stretch though.

I don't know Volxen but I'll keep this in mind. That was a long explanation to say that's not who you'd push as scum. Self-meta like that isn't something I read into much. For all I know the reason you're potentially setting up a push on volxen instead of the other options you gave is because the other options include your partners.

Once again, what is this? I hate nearly every post she makes.

Can you tell me what's scummy about this post?

People play expecting town to have reads, but a townie shouldn't have strong reads at this point in the game. I will converse as I see fit, and these conversations will look good to look at in hindsight, which is why I converse.

I have given my thoughts on the stuff that stood out the most.

you're lockscum

I don't have a specific opinion on any one of Ashoka's posts but I definitely do not find them scummy.

I don't know Gimli, but I know you and Kkoba, so let's fight. Shall we?

I believe this push on me is fabricated. I believe there are town on my wagon currently, as I specifically do not think Gimli and Dkkoba are both scum voting me.

Clidd can be scum because they hard misrepped me right when momentum on me could have gone either way. They can be impatient town. Either way, this should end up amusing.

This I hate very much for how defensive it is. I am considering moving this down to scum read.

pedit: what

Off this alone, clidd is now my top townread.

?

oh hi flavor leaf

Who is that?

oh hi flavor leaf

ow about you let other people decide if that is a townslip? also fair to note DK was annoying my slot cause redflavor had like a small hint of being mechanically aware, and now they're looking like they don't know anything at all about the game they're playing. so how does dkkoba know there's a doomcounter and they don't know there's 3 mafia?

DK can correct me if I am wrong, but I interpreted their reasoning behind their early Red scumread as that, if Red rolled scum the doom counter would be fresher in his mind since it’s mentioned in the scum role PM, whereas the DC is not mentioned in the town role PM. I don’t think it’s a great reason to be scumreading your slot, but I believe that is where DK is coming from regarding the scumread of Red’s opener.

I don’t think it’s really far-fetched that town!DK could have been aware of the DC early on but glossed over the fact that there are three scum vs two scum. DK might have simply focused on the DC part of the setup information and overlooked the number of town vs scum if they were reading the setup primarily to learn about the DC mechanic.

The alternative explanation is that DK is scum and faked all of these “mistakes” by pretending to think that there were only two scum, and that scum could also nightkill. I don’t think this is as likely because DK’s progression that started with incorrect analysis (2 scum and nightkills) and ended with them realizing their mistakes seemed genuine to me.

Also, if you look back at the early interactions between Red and DK at the very beginning of the game (5, 6, 7), DK’s posts where they called Red’s opener scummy and said it was a somewhat serious vote came 2 minutes after Red’s “hardclaim DC” opener. Scum!DK couldn’t have possibly pre-planned that opener, unless they are scum with your slot. And if you are town and DK is scum, I don’t know that DK would be able to come up with that fake reasoning to scumread Red over his opener that quickly. Granted, DK only initially said that Red’s opener was scummy without explaining why, but they knew they would have to eventually explain why (and DK did as soon as Red replaced out), so I think that regardless of DK’s alignment they knew what the explanation of the scumread was going to be at the time that they called Red’s opener scummy. I think it’s more likely to be a genuine thought process coming from town!DK rather than a fake thought process coming from scum!DK, especially when the short time lapse is taken into account.

I'm going to have to ask you to explain exactly where you stand because this post is not faring well with my brain after an entire day of work.

volxen im feeling that vibe u fit into a very similar archaetype of player like I do

Volxen is a townread because Dkkoba posted this.

just so you won't think I'm picking on you, I just found all your posting to be scum indicative as I was catching up. I could be wrong of course.

There were a few instances where I had to get my glasses and make sure I was reading correctly but I disagree that all of it was bad.

VOTE: horsewoman come play

I townread this.

Radja is still obvscum

Dropped to scum read until I get an explanation for this.

So you don't have any strong read that you like to talk and that's ok because it's page 6 and I'm the villain for wanting to force something that theoretically you would not be able to deliver bc you're town and town don't have real reads early game. Is that it?

I don't like clidd twisting this to make it sound like he was being targeted. I never interpreted anything Ahsoka said as calling him a villain or even sussing him.
I'm going to move over here VOTE: clidd

pedit: I feel like a villain by the tone you approached the subject, but don't worry.

The tone felt fine to me too. Maybe just because it wasn't directed at me but I don't see how it made him feel like a villain.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

I usually push players who are vocally weaker compared to me as scum, and Volxen doesn't fit that criteria.

Unless I have a specific context for pushing a player that is vocally difficult to eliminate (as I did on partition with ABR)

After our last game together -- where we were both town and I incorrectly scumread you early on in the game because I was suspicious of your "easy" townread on me -- I think it's plausible that scum!you would be aggressive towards my slot and push me in the beginning. You know I'm skeptical of people who townread me if I can't follow their reasoning. So if anything, I would expect scum!you to err on the side of being too aggressive towards my slot (rather than whiteknight me), at least initially, because you could always pull back later and have your read of me "evolve" into a townread if I started to become more widely townread.

I don't know if scum!you would necessarily deathtunnel me, but I am convinced after our last game together that scum!you would be very cautious with things like the timing of when you might fake a townread on me and your fake reasons for doing so, because you know that I would call you out on it if I felt that your reasons for townreading me were not genuine.

So I don't buy this narrative at all that scum!you would always start off by pushing the less vocal slots.

Then this further supports my point earlier that clidd might be setting up a push.

I hate Raya's posting way too much. Every post looks so scummy. This is my top scum read.

Can you also tell me what you found scummy about this post

An example of this type of impression is this post (

town!volxen

):

viewtopic.php?p=12060913#p12060913

I can feel it when Volxen presents a line of reasoning that I look at and think ''gee, this analysis is super towny, I think I would think the same if we switch places''.

Unlike this, for example (

scum!volxen

):

viewtopic.php?p=11618440#p11618440

Where I can smell superficiality 1 km away.

It seems to me that you were the opposite alignment both times. If that is true, I am hesitant to believe this analysis.

But hopefully, we are in a reality where everything is flowing as I expected and my reads on the slots are going well.

This sounds a little self conscious.

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

Why?

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

I cc

Why?

(Mixed up who replaced into which slot)

I feel like this comes from town more than scum. I'm going to lift this to null.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

Is there a difference?

Hullo! I wish you all a great sunday ahead.

I'm not really following what Raya and clidd are arguing about.

Gimli's "regardless of clidd's alignment, Raya is locktown" seems really weird to me. Why would a clidd flip not make you reconsider your read?

Maybe if you understood their argument you'd understand why I'm so hard in leaning raya town. It does appear to me that raya, volxen and clidd are playing something of a game of their own, with all that combined meta and wits between the 3 of them. Raya caught clidd being too hasty in townreading volxen for something volxen did that isn't supposed to be read as towny, and I think the push in that direction was too nuanced to ever come from scum. Even if clidd is town, that doesn't diminish the towniness in raya's thought process.

Speaking of which, I was a little uneasy with clidd's strong TR of me, because my TR of clidd was weaking at that point and I think he noticed it (given I was open about strong townreading raya), and I felt that maybe clidd decided to try to maintain himself on my good side by pocketing me. I'm not sure my posts were towny enough to be townread that strongly.

I absolutely hated the push on clidd. It looked very slimy. I don't think past experience with a player justifies nasty pushes like that.

Ahsoka seems like a bit of an oddball type of player, and as an oddball myself I sympathize with how hard it is sometimes to make yourself understood. That is to say I might have been too hasty in identifying the oddity of her posting as scummy, and a post such as this appears to have layers of genuine solvey thought processes. It's not a strong read but I've been liking the way she responded to all the pressure.

This switched too fast but I still think it's a towny thought process. I think I'm going to officially move Gimli up to a townread.

did a re-read on the entire thing.

clidd is a stronger townlean now than before the re-read. I think what bothers me the most about him is townreading volxen based off nothing, then trying to act smart about it. I'm also townreading ahsoka now. I think the way she developed her posting in thread was very natural and the way she responded to pressure was good. it's not much but I gotta work with this townpool for now <raya, ahsoka, clidd>.

if I squint real hard, I can see something towny about radja. NM did nothing either way.

that leaves me with volxen, dkkoba and horsewoman. volxen's wall defending dkkoba's tripping over themselves at the beginning of d1 and then dkkoba going 'i feel naked uwu' and then defending volxen when no one was pushing him are all suspicious to me. + no one pushed horsewoman yet, someone who was just here to complain about a game having 6 pages 36 hours into it. if she was town there'd be a wagon already.

Volxen was dropped to a null once my scum read on dkkoba faded out.
I agree with the clidd townread.
Ahsoka is a null for me for now. I've wavered in between townread and null for them so I think the townread is reasonable.
Raya I disagree with entirely. She hasn't posted a single post that I haven't felt was extremely scummy.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

new user posts in thread for first time. absolutely shocking. i should have just used quantum time travel to post in a thread before having posted in it for the first time.

Like come on man, bring the game into the game, bring your paranoid crap into the admins DMs not here.

This level of anger and frustration doesn't feel fake. I'm going to call it town.

I mean obviously this is forced and ridiculous (doing actual game-related catchup now)

This can be my new top townread.

This, however, is a relatively lazy read from Gimli. Just finished a game with him (my first game onsite so don't expect any other meta from me) where he was scum and he was universally townread and really competent. So he's someone I want to have my eye on throughout this one.

I'm honestly unsure what I think of Gimli currently. His entrance made me think scum but after that mostly everything was null or townread material. I can't remember most of his posts also. I can only think of off the top of my head one readslist that I agreed with except for the Raya read.

Okay this reads list is so bad I'm joining this wagon

VOTE: Radja.

I'm caught up, it was super easy and fast because most of the 12 pages was dkkoba spewing nonsense. Although I don't mind making short multiposts, I think posting as much as koba is is kind of anti-town (at least on mafiascum, where games are soooooooo slow), so I would advise koba to cut that aspect out of his playstyle/this game.

Gimli's playing pretty differently than he did in our game together. And by that I mean worse. I think paradoxically that makes him more likely to be town here? He's producing less reads and less analysis but that might be because he's only producing genuine reads/analysis. Want to see more from him. Koba has made a lot of posts I disagree with and posts like 223 really rub me the wrong way. Radja's reads list is so atrocious I don't think it can come from anyone trying to solve/read the game. I'm kind of biased against koba because he's accused me (without evidence) of being an alt of a guy who was apparently banned for sexual harassment, and that's a really fucking uncool thing to do. So I've got personal animus there. Post 217 from clidd I really dislike, the thought process of 'I agree with him so he's town' is itself, really artificial. I liked ahsoka's posting a reasonable amount.

Now I'm having problems with this readslist.
Clidd is solid town. Occasionally I question it but overall, I'm pretty sure he's just town.
Gimli and Dkkoba are still nulls. I dont think I'm willing to give either a townread thinking back on that.
I think I was too quick to townread this and am dropping it to null now.

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

the way this is my exact GtH solve rn

This sort of interaction is the sort I'd usually say wouldn't be between two scum but I think it has a high chance of being so here. That's because the setup of 3 scum out of 9 heavily incentivizes the scum to buddy up and stick together, because if all 3 are going the same way they only need 2 town to join them. So basically I'm saying that bussing is incredibly unlikely and scum overtly allying is much more possible.

I don't think they are scum together.

I'm saying that close buddying up in this game is more likely to be scummy in this game than other games. You and N_M have closely buddied up, which in the context of this game, is scummy behaviour. Please don't immaturely attempt to own me.

Nevermind. I think this has to be town. Back to town reads.

Town: Clidd, Horsewoman
Null: Ahsoka, Gimli, Dkkoba, V-something
Scum: Raya, Not_Mafia

I'm halfway caught up with a full set of reads and a decent amount of confidence! This is it for tonight and I'll be back to read the rest tomorrow.

(I responded within the quote in bold)

[Raya36]

876
I'm starting to more strongly consider I might be wrong about my scumread on clidd. Most of my evidence was from early game and I'm starting to feel less strong about it. I'm no longer concerned that he was trying to set up a push on Volxen and I also haven't seen any noticeable similar behavior. The reaction test thing still doesn't make sense to me as it couldn't have possibly created a useful reaction but I'm willing to accept that sometimes town does things that don't make sense. I do need to iso him again to solidify this. I'm going to move Clidd to my idk/null pool for now. The interactions Gimli went over about clidd are interesting as well and I agree with the points made. The reasons I hesitate to call clidd a townread are 1) I haven't has a chance to iso him in depth and 2) I remember him having a strong scumgame in the past.

I have had a consistent townread on Gimli and his D2 opening only supports this. I'm wary to locktown but if I were to locktown anyone it would be Gimli. He has shown consistent in depth analysis which I tend to find myself in agreement with. If he's right about clidd being town then it's interesting to note that during my early interactions with clidd he townread both sides. He said he agrees with my logic which means he could have easily joined me on the scumread and attempted to pocket me through the townread on me, but he didn't. You can also see a lot of read progression and natural changing of his mind which also supports him being town.

I agree based on the Ahsoka/Koba interactions that they are likely not partners. I had a very hard time reading the interaction but did not find much that made sense as far as scum motivation, outside of distancing of course. Another thing that makes me agree with this is the kind of odd posts or stretches. A svs interaction should be more well thought out to appear more natural. I still townread Ahsoka for the reasons I mentioned in my sorting post.

I don't think I'm following the 287 and 288 point about Horsewoman and Koba? Could you go into more depth with that?


My first impression of the NM hammer was just that it was a typical NM play. But NM made 0 comment about Lostego or that slot all game besides a blank vote mid day, they were insistent on Radja. My main concern is scum!NM is using his playstyle to quickhammer and slide by with limited suspicion. And not addressing the quickhammer supports this. PoE also makes NM quite likely to be scum. I need an explanation for why Lostego was scum/why the quickhammer, and an explanation for why Radja is scum.

gimli why did you put lostego at e-1?

Why are you questioning Gimli rather than NM who quickhammered?

I very much disagree with Koba's read on Gimli.

Just so we're clear, the doom counter suggestion being brought up right now is that we trade one elimination for a list of FIVE players that the MAFIA picked. If we hit the button and we miselim today, we LOSE THE GAME. The list can be completely useless as mafia picked it for us.

If you're town and you think this is reasonable, I suggest some you do some reflection on it.

I'm also concerned about using the list but I do think it would be much more useful than you're making it out to be. Regardless of if it was picked by the mafia, the list serves to help town. I get that if we miselim with the list, we lose, but town is still at a huge disadvantage without the list. 5v3 is going to allow for heavy scum influence and we need all the help we can get. Let's say we don't publish the list and miselim again. DC=3, Town=4. Then we're at the same place we'd be today but with no info or opportunity to publish the list.

[Raya36]

i dont question NM because this is how NM plays and is NAI for them to hammer there.

So you're just going to let it slide? There's a good chance NM is scum here and your interactions and posts so far D2 show no suspicion on that slot

[Raya36]

they didnt have lostego slot marked as town so them hammering there checks out as far as logic goes.

They had nobody marked as town. So you would've been ok with NM quickhammering anyone?

[Raya36]

i dont question NM because this is how NM plays and is NAI for them to hammer there.

So you're just going to let it slide? There's a good chance NM is scum here and your interactions and posts so far D2 show no suspicion on that slot

I'm town

yeah.. I believe that. Can you answer my questions from earlier?

[Raya36]

I need an explanation for why Lostego was scum/why the quickhammer, and an explanation for why Radja is scum.

[Raya36]

I hammered cos I felt like it and Radja is obvscum

Why is Radja obvscum?

[Raya36]

Sorry for the really long post, wifi went out last night when I was writing my post.

876 is very transparent. I don't understand how there can be people scumreading Gimli.

Agreed, Gimli appears almost obvtown to me.

Particularly, I think NM is being pushed a lot less than I would think of town!NM vs three scums and as nothing he said or did until now is suggestive enough to infer a specific alignment, the initial impression I described is the way I'm seeing the slot rn.

I agree with this thought. If NM is town he'd almost for sure be a target. And I don't think scum leaving him for LyLo is good logic. People have to be displaying suspicion for that to be viable and I don't see enough of that. NM always has the advantage of doing whatever and everyone brushing it off because it's NM. There's also not near as much suspicion on him as I'd expect considering the quickhammer which makes me believe he has 2 others on his side.

By the way, I liked your 906, Raya.

I believe that the proportion that you attributed to the development of your read about me, without losing the careful approach to not conclude anything in a hasty way, reflected me very organic.

I fear that everything I demonstrated in this game so far is still within my scumrange, but that shouldn't be a problem if you keep evaluating me correctly (which I believe you are).

That's the main thing I'm concerned about. You feel town and that's what my gut is telling me but I know this is likely not outside of your scum range and things like this make me worry that you're trying to pocket me or at the very least sway me more towards townreading you. I think a really big factor of my suspicions is the ratio of town to scum.

I'm here. I still think Dkkoba/Clidd/Infinity 100% have scum in them

Why this combination? I do like the rest of what you said though. I agree scum are probably trying to have an active role right now. Gimli is almost never scum. I'll look into what you said about Clidd. I'm feeling much better about him but maybe I've just exhausted myself with the slot and I'm missing something.

Gimli vs Dkkoba if there's scum in them, it's Dkkoba.

@Infinity - if you are town, I see absolutely no world where Dkkoba is town. Dkkoba been vote hopping left and right. They've been putting momentum swinging votes throughout this game, and frankly Gimli's posts just make sense to me, I don't really understand what people are pushing as scum with him.

I feel like he was just getting town read too much, and scum tried to setup a discredit. I feel like I haven't been in this game for a while, so coming in to Gimli being scum read like this seems completely opportunistic of scum. I'm definitely thinking too much into this, but nonetheless, that's how I feel. Even if scum wasn't aware, the natural feeling they had for the game likely came up anyways, and I don't believe Gimli's done anything that pushes a scum agenda forward.

He nearly single handedly stopped my wagon Day 1 in a position where if he was scum, he completely halted momentum on me, something that Dkkoba and Clidd both tried to keep pushing.

Absolutely agree with what's being said about Gimli.

[quote="In I don't think I'm following the 287 and 288 point about Horsewoman and Koba? Could you go into more depth with that?

Thank you for reading and discussing m ... ]post 1028, Gimli son of Glóin"]<koba, clidd, infinity, amélie, NM>

find two townies and win the game.[/quote]
This is the same pool I'm working with since Gimli and Ahsoka are my two townreads. The rest are townleans or below. I still think NM could be scum. And I'm suspicious of Koba lightly defending him. I feel like that's too obvious for them to be partners together though. But I absolutely want to eliminate one of them. The next three are sorted in this order for me as of now: Infinity, Amelie, Clidd.

You're gonna hate this, but that vote looks like such a bus.

Like maybe it's not, and you're gonna say that Clidd and I are just scum together, and I'm setting you up, but townies can make things tht can appear scummy looking at it from certain angles. That's so funny.

I wasn't gonna say it but that was my initial thought as well and something I could see Koba doing.

I was going to reread and reassess some things, but the more I type in the more people suspect me

Particularly I think that Gimli, Infinity and Raya are towns. But I must be wrong between Gimli and Raya.

So my solve would be:

{DkKoba, Ahsoka} -> 1 scum among them.
{Not_Mafia, Amélie} -> 1 scum among them
{Gimli, Raya} -> 1 scum among them

I originally thought that Gimli and Raya would be a good base for TR, but I can't think straight with so much information being dissolved from various sides. It is likely that town and scum are transmitting ripples that are hindering my consolidation.

Can you explain a little about where those pairs came from. I really don't think Gimli is scum and I know I'm not so the last pair is likely wrong. I also really don't think Ahsoka is scum so the first pair would point to Koba. And I think NM is scum which would point to Amelie being town.

You're gonna hate this, but that vote looks like such a bus.

Like maybe it's not, and you're gonna say that Clidd and I are just scum together, and I'm setting you up, but townies can make things tht can appear scummy looking at it from certain angles. That's so funny.

Actually, VOTE: Ahsoka

I think we are dealing with scum!Flavor this game.

Yeah... I hard disagree with this. I was feeling better about clidd's D1 but now his D2 is looking bad.

UNVOTE: Ahsoka

My new top 3 town is Gimli, Raya and Ahsoka

And now I'm back to being confused. How did you get enough info between those posts for this sudden change? Are you trying to wiggle your way into the townblock?




I'm still leaning towards publishing the list. I can understand both sides and the huge risk of using it but we already have a miselim and we need all the info we can get to help us figure this game out. I get the argument that scum made the list so of course it'll be manipulative to an extent but there's only so many reasonable combinations they can make and if we have a strong set of townreads we might be able to read through it. If we don't use the list we have 3/8 chance (37.5%) and with the list we have probably 2/5 (40%) and 1/3 (33.3%) which is similar but it gives us two smaller pools to work with. The list is in this game for town's advantage. Otherwise we're just playing a scumsided game.

Also not that I want to rush a decision like this but if we do choose the publish the list it needs to be soon or else we won't have time to make proper use of it and it would just be a waste.


Town: Gimli, Ahsoka
Townlean: Infinity, Amelie
Null: Clidd
Scumlean: Koba
Scum: NM

This is how I'm feeling right now. If I'm right about NM and Koba then I'm wrong about 1 person in my townpools. I feel very good about Gimli and Ahsoka so it would be between the 3 in my leans/null. I for sure want NM or Koba today.

Also small disclaimer, I suck at solving with teams/associations so I'll likely focus more on individuals until we have a scumflip to work with.

[Raya36]

VOTE: NM
Meant to do this

[Raya36]

Ahsoka, which solve is likely with Gimli, Raya, me and you as town?

Hello Miss Raya.

Spicy vote, but shouldn't you be scumreading me bc of the last pages?

I don't even know what to think of you anymore. I townread your D1 and scumread your D2. That's why you're in my null until I figure you out

[Raya36]

It does feel like clidd's more nuanced reads considering POE are only coming because he was hardpressed to do them.

Ahsoka, if you feel that strongly about clidd near the end of the day, I think I'll join you. Right now I'm really just confused though. that 180 degree read putting both of us in his towncore is really shameless if he is scum.

pedit: good stuff raya. I think you're missing the point that our 3/8 comes with a 3/7 next gameday if we miss, and we don't have that opportunity with the list. I broke down the math somewhere in this game.

I think my main thoughts about the list is that mafia made the list considering the D1 gamestate and I think if they had the opportunity to redo the list it would be different considering how D2 is playing out so far. I acknowledge the risk. I understand if we publish we can't miss. My concern is that I and I think others have more and stronger townreads than scumreads. And that makes this game one that should make good use of PoE. The list will absolutey help with that.

Let's say we publish the list and then hit Mafia.
DC=3, Town=5. Now we're at an advantage again.

If we don't publish the list and miss.
DC=3, Town=4. Now we're just where we would have been today if we published. And we don't have the opportunity to publish the list and we're forced to just play a regular game of mafia with huge scum influence.

Honestly both have their pros and cons and if everyone prefers not publishing I can live with that. I just think the risk is worth taking.

[Raya36]

It does feel like clidd's more nuanced reads considering POE are only coming because he was hardpressed to do them.

Ahsoka, if you feel that strongly about clidd near the end of the day, I think I'll join you. Right now I'm really just confused though. that 180 degree read putting both of us in his towncore is really shameless if he is scum.

pedit: good stuff raya. I think you're missing the point that our 3/8 comes with a 3/7 next gameday if we miss, and we don't have that opportunity with the list. I broke down the math somewhere in this game.

Honestly, I'm not like ultra confident in which of them is town, and while I town read Raya, and they are generally town, I do have some paranoia, and Raya being scum flips this game, which is something in the back of my mind with the 3 group.

@Raya - Why do you town read Infinity?

It's still attached to my earlier explained townlean of horse. Specifically on Infinity:
I thought his intro post was good as he was taking some interesting takes and not just sheeping and while I disagreed with some reads there were others that I did agree with. These reads developed as well. Going after Gimli would not be a good choice as scum at that point in the game. It wouldn't make any sense outside of aiming for towncred for going after someone difficult. His development on his read on me read genuine. I also saw some critical reading like when calling me out for not being confident about Koba D1s but still pushing. I also sense a layer of paranoia from Infinity which leads me to believe he's not informed.

I will admit my townleans including Infinity are quite weak and need to be developed on.

[Raya36]

Re Amelie 1153
I agree with that first point about clidd which is why I'm starting to townread his D1 play. Once you get a chance to look more into the D2 stuff I'd love to know what you think. I'm very stuck on how someone can look town D1 and so scummy D2. Maybe I was just right for the wrong reasons D1?
Can you talk about your Koba read? I think Koba and Clidd(?) are our key differences in our lists.

Radja is scum

Care to discuss why?

Thank you clidd, I still need to sort Ahsoka, so assuming this was all in good faith from you it may help.

I think this feels slightly towny but my scum read on Raya is still there. I keep feeling like something is wrong tone-wise. It could be a huge playstyle clash but I really dislike almost every single post she makes.

You've been saying you dislike all my posts a lot. Want to talk about any in particular? If it's a tone thing I don't think I can help much though.

[Raya36]

Maybe so but I started with a scumread, had some doubts here and there, went to a townread, and now back to a scumread. Not quite as black and white as town to scum.

Why do you think people tend to townread then scumread you?

[Raya36]

Alright, I'll think about that and let you take your break.

Also to let everyone know classes start back up tomorrow so I'll be a bit less active

[Raya36]

still think clidd is way too complacent lmfao

VOTE: clidd
fuck it
gut read from d1

I was hesitant to consider Dk scum by PoE, because I'm not scumreading the slot, but when I reflect on their reasons for suspecting me, they don't seem congruent with the various scummy things I said and did. He did not mention at any time the inconsistencies that Ahsoka pointed out, for example. Which makes me think that town!Dk would have jumped at me with 1001 reasons a long time ago.

Scumreading me because of gut or '' being complacent'' is very vague and do not make use of the material that town!Dk has available to analyze on me.

I very much agree with this analysis of Koba. Especially since I have seen several of their towngames and they have a very competent town-game.

Amélie scumreading Raya is ''??'' and I'm not sure if I understand her.

But Radja was townreading Raya and perhaps the fact that there is disagreement between predecessor (Radja) and successor (Amélie) is a suggestive indication of the non-existence of a scum PT for scum!Amélie find out about her predecessor's reads before building her own.

pedit: No, stop.

I also agree with this take on Amelie. Another thought I was having was around the scum!agenda of pushing me. I can't think of anything. I don't even think it makes much sense as a towncred push either. Especially considering how she is pushing me. It makes no sense from scum.

Infinity, you are not facilitating my read on you.

It is very unlikely that Gimli is scum. You're pushing town now.

Interesting word choice. Infinity does something scummy, you say he isn't "facilitating" your read on him. Makes it sound like you're trying to townread him rather than read him.

Infinity's points are stronger in this 1v1.

[Raya36]

My ''facilitating'' is in the sense of enable.

It is very difficult to read the slot with this push that comes since his arrival.

Hasn't he been pushing gimli the whole time though? This isn't new?

And I don't think he has any persuasive points that indicate that Gimli is scum individually.

My doubt was the fact that more than 3 slots shared some kind of doubt regarding Gimli, including Lostego (which was eliminated).

Yeah, it at least means that it can't be a push fully driven from scum. I'm honestly not seeing Gimli as scum this game. It's possible I'm wrong but I'm honestly leaning towards the good faith scumreads on gimli being driven by paranoia as Gimli has been a louder player this game.

The thing is: why?

I see no merit in pushing such kind of narrative from scum!Infinity for so long.

But at the same time, the more I tighten my PoE, the more infinity appears in the scum zone.

Or I can just close my eyes and assume that there is some explanation outside of my vision, while focusing on what I already have in my town pool.

Yeah, I'm having a hard time with this as well. It could just be simply wanting to hold consistency but there isn't much motivation I can see.

[Raya36]

I'm wondering if you all just want the list because you're eager to get new information no matter the cost, but be aware that this is something the mafia also probably wants.

I was thinking about mafia wanting the list or not and I don't think there's been enough of a push for it for them to want it that bad? It's possible they're worried about the list and how to slots are turning out D2. Also most likely in the same way there's strong pros and cons of both for town, I believe there are pros and cons of both for scum too. I still think overall it's to town's advantage to publish the list though.
And not to be pushy about this but I really think we should be talking about this more. There are clearly 2 very different outlooks on publishing the list and we need to figure out what's best for town soon. We have just under 6 days and if we do choose to publish the list we need time to consider it and reevaluate.

now that its over I'd like to compare my vote on Lostego as similar to my vote on TGP in this BoonSkiies game here: viewtopic.php?p=12441568#p12441568

I vote and then scum come in and quickhammer, I am not happy at this point as I was still gathering info. this is the same vibe i had with lostego

Why are you defending yourself unprompted?

[Raya36]

"unprompted" stfu that game just ended and i felt it relevant considering our dear ashoka was aware i was town in that game and was following along

My bad, didn't check the date of the game to see it just ended

raya what are ur reads rn.

Town: Gimli, Ahsoka
Townlean: Infinity, Amelie
Null: Clidd
Scumlean: Koba
Scum: NM

[Raya36]

I-

how even can you sort NM that confidently ever in a vanilla game

I disagree with his reads. I don't like the fixation on radja with no reasoning behind it. The quickhammer was horrible. He has been evasive D2. I know those are just typical NM things but I found it odd that besides an earlier vote on Lostego (with 0 explanation) he said nothing about Lostego all game, yet felt good about hammering the slot. I know it's not 100% because NM is a wildcard but scum!NM can get away with this so easily and avoiding any conversation around the quickhammer makes me feel like this could be true. Also as clidd mentioned earlier NM is probably an easy target for scum right now if he is town and the fact that almost everyone is just letting it slide could be telling. Also since most are letting it slide that means town are as well. If NM is town this makes him less viable as a player scum wants to leave for LyLo so I don't think this is necessarily the case.

[Raya36]

"unprompted" stfu that game just ended and i felt it relevant considering our dear ashoka was aware i was town in that game and was following along

My bad, didn't check the date of the game to see it just ended

now that its over

I'd like to compare my vote on Lostego as similar to my vote on TGP in this BoonSkiies game here: viewtopic.php?p=12441568#p12441568

I vote and then scum come in and quickhammer, I am not happy at this point as I was still gathering info. this is the same vibe i had with lostego

??

I'm just gonna blame that on first day of classes with an 8:30 am

[Raya36]

I'm wondering if you all just want the list because you're eager to get new information no matter the cost, but be aware that this is something the mafia also probably wants.

I was thinking about mafia wanting the list or not and I don't think there's been enough of a push for it for them to want it that bad? It's possible they're worried about the list and how to slots are turning out D2. Also most likely in the same way there's strong pros and cons of both for town, I believe there are pros and cons of both for scum too. I still think overall it's to town's advantage to publish the list though.
And not to be pushy about this but I really think we should be talking about this more. There are clearly 2 very different outlooks on publishing the list and we need to figure out what's best for town soon. We have just under 6 days and if we do choose to publish the list we need time to consider it and reevaluate.

now that its over I'd like to compare my vote on Lostego as similar to my vote on TGP in this BoonSkiies game here: viewtopic.php?p=12441568#p12441568

I vote and then scum come in and quickhammer, I am not happy at this point as I was still gathering info. this is the same vibe i had with lostego

Why are you defending yourself unprompted?

Raya, I'm sorry if this comes out a little blunt but I have given the exact reason why using the doomcounter today is throwing the game and so far I read nothing but wishful thinking from you. If you wanna talk honestly about it, then please give me a PRACTICAL example of how the list can make us hit town TODAY because that's what we're going to need in order not to lose. Think, for instance, of the likelihood we're flipping NM this gameday and how the list would help either showing he is town or POEing him down as mafia assuredly. can the list do that? otherwise this is my last thought about the list:

let me break the math down for you

say we use the doomcounter and elim in the 2/5 list. if we do so randomly, the odds of hitting scum are 40%. 60% of the time we simply lose the game.

say we don't use the doomcounter and eliminate randomly in a 3/8. the odds of hitting scum are 37,5%, as opposed to the 40% with the list, and if we don't elim scum it we'll have a 3/7 chance next day, which is a 42,8% chance. the odds of randomly hitting scum here at least once in two shots is 68% (I think). your opinion here is so bad.

If you wanna argue in favour of the list, you have to show how my math is less important than the list.

No worries, if I'm wrong I want to see why.

I'll just give examples based on my reads which are:
Town: Gimli, Ahsoka
Townlean: Infinity, Amelie
Null: Clidd
Scumlean: Koba
Scum: NM

And lets say the list is 2M3T and 1M2T

List example:
Ahsoka, Infinity, Amelie, Clidd, Raya
Gimli, NM, Koba

Now I know I'm wrong about probably either NM or Koba and I can reevaluate based on that. I also know that there are 2 scum in the top list so if clidd who is my lowest is scum then I'm wrong about Ahsoka, Infinity, or Amelie.

List example:
Infinity, Amelie, Koba, NM, Raya
Gimli, Ahsoka, clidd

This would point me towards clidd being scum and me being right about Koba and NM

List example:
Gimli, Ahsoka, clidd, Koba, NM
Raya, Infinity, Amelie

Now I would believe I'm wrong with Koba or NM and 1 scum is clidd, or that I'm right with Koba and NM, and also I know I'm wrong about either Infinity or Amelie.

The list can give a lot of info. You can't look at only the numbers.

[Raya36]

You know what, fine. This reasoning is decent (it's wrong and it's throwing, but there's reason there) and my classes are starting again so I can't get too involved with these forum games. if you and ahsoka want to do it, I'm okay with this.

JSYK, if NM is town this will cost the entire thing.

The list should help determine NM's alignment better than trying to read him will. I think the list will help us make the correct decision.

And given neither infinity nor koba, which absolutely has at least one scum between them, is pushing for NM, and no one else really did it except amélie now, then maybe he is just mafia and we play a faster game with more information.

My thoughts exactly. Based on overall reads of NM, his play, and PoE I think he is scum and I think if we're wrong the list will help us determine that. I feel we have a better chance of hitting scum with the info the list gives and I think the lack of pushing for the list is telling that scum maybe don't want the list pulished for that reason.

[Raya36]

I want to publish and nothing is coming of this NM vote anyway

VOTE: list

[Raya36]

VOTE: list
We're 1v1ing tomorrow. I'm done with this manipulation

I'm glad you hammered the list but the timing was kind of opportunistic considering you were in the middle of a 1v1 with Ahsoka.


I don't have time now to analyze the list but I'm just copying it here for quick reference in probably a few hours. At an initial glance my 3 lowest reads NM/Koba/clidd isn't fully viable anymore. It's one of Koba/clidd and probably NM and one other of Infinity/Ahsoka/Gimli/Amelie. I'll write down the potential teams with my current thoughts and look more into the possibilities later.

Infinity 324, Ahsoka, Not_Mafia, Gimli son of Glóin, and Amélie - 3 town, 2 mafia
Raya, Koba, clidd - 2 town, 1 mafia

2 of infinity/NM/Amelie
1 of Koba/clidd

Hmm what a surprise my solve is still possible now

Can we just elim clidd?

This looks like a partner helping Dkkoba's position in this game because of Dkkoba/Clidd having 1 scum in them.

Dkkoba's posting is indicative of scum who didn't want the list published, but had to anyways. There is no reason for Dkkoba who was the one pushing the list early in the day to be essentially needing to be pushed into the list publish. Every single thing Dkkoba was shading Gimli for coming out of nowhere had already been explained.

My guesses are Gimli/Clidd are the misfade plays for scum.

Dkkoba is going to try and open up me as well here, they were setting themselves up to do that before they voted to publish the list.

I think I'm agreeing with you. It makes sense with the sudden push on Gimli when they were mostly townread earlier. The Koba/clidd theory is interesting too because I could see scum!Koba being bold enough to put themself into the group of 3 with clidd as the miselim option. I'm also still thinking scum could be NM. He's in the larger group which is safer and also the limited pushing on him so far could be telling.

the mafia was afraid of the list, at least eventually.

This is exactly what I think happened. I think ScumDkkoba wanted the list initially, but the gamestate changed, which is why they were posting in a way where they said they were okay with the list, but then realized it would damn them. They couldn't change their mind on it or be outed either.

I fully agree with this. I do think we were correct in publishing the list and were right that scum didn't want it to be published. I also agree that Koba's play fits into this theory well. They definitely appeared much less enthusiastic about the list as time progressed.

[Raya36]

List analysis stuff:

Infinity 324, Ahsoka, Not_Mafia, Gimli son of Glóin, and Amélie - 3 town, 2 mafia
Raya, Koba, clidd - 2 town, 1 mafia

2 of infinity/NM/Amelie
1 of Koba/clidd

So from my pov it has to be 1 of Koba and clidd. Koba makes way more sense to me as scum than clidd. I townread clidd's D1 and his late D2 and D3 so far haven't been making me feel the same way his early D2 did. Koba on the other hand I scum read for the reasons I've previously explained. I feel decently confident Koba flips scum here.

I still strongly believe Ahsoka and Gimli are town.

I already think NM is scum and I have explained why so I'm not going to get into that here.

Between Infinity and Amelie I'm leaning Infinity. Look at his push on clidd. Mafia would have made the list N1. Look at how he acts towards clidd D1. He has lots of good things to say like how he's genuine and natural etc. Now look at D2 after the list is made and he knows me, Koba, and clidd are together. Suddenly 1 of Koba and clidd are scum. Then that gets shifted over time to clidd is scum and Koba is town. This is absolutely Infinity setting up to take Koba's side in the off-list group.

I guess it can also be <amélie, koba, infinity>. We need to kill inside koba and infinity today. If NM is town we're really doomed because we're gonna need his vote to achieve a majority with 8 players. We must get it right tomorrow as well cause it's also elim-or-lose. So we need to go koba and infinity first, then flip NM, and then finally flip amélie.

Flipping koba today will also lock clear two players, so I suggest that's what we do instead of flipping infinity.

Definitely agree with Koba first. Infinity is a viable partner of Koba and we should go there next. NM I still think is scum but his flip would give the least amount of info regardless so waiting there seems fine. Then Amelie if we still don't have the team.

Koba, what's your read on Gimli again?

[Raya36]

gimli is tunneled town

Alright, I got lost in the section where you were telling Gimli to take the L

[Raya36]

crazy how mafia would make a list to frame people they want to miselim tho raya. U figured it out

That makes no sense. Infinity's attitude changed after N1 when the list was already made. How could scum be possibly framing you and Infinity as partners when Infinity's change of read on clidd didn't happen until after their list was submitted. Unless you're saying Infinity is scum framing you and himself which still is highly unlikely.

[Raya36]

lets see where people align
VOTE: clidd

VOTE: clidd

My theory still holds.

Also I like how Koba tried to discredit that theory then when I proved their discredit wrong they never acknowledged.

[Raya36]

ur gonna spam out this page tho bc it shows me lightly townslipping its ok

You mean like the townslip you faked page 1? Like the townslips you said you sometimes fake as scum?

[Raya36]

Hm Infinity changing their stance a bit on Koba after I called out the list and clidd read thing. Maybe it isn't just a theory after all...

[Raya36]

VOTE: Gimli

[Raya36]

Great job everyone and thank you Datisi for modding! This game and the mechanics were a lot of fun and this is probably my first scum game I'm actually happy with.