Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Thespio]

VOTE: Elements First post is always scum, got’em

[Thespio]

For those of you who are new, ICs are the equivalent of Toby from the office, and SEs are the equivalent of Michael from the office.

[Thespio]

That comment alone makes you more of a Ryan, though.

I can live with that! :p come buy my Illuminati shaped ipad.

[Thespio]

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

I dont think this is odd, I want to see some stuff from the other less active players, what did you find odd about this? why did it peak your interest?

[Thespio]

^ We've got a rebel in the house!

[Thespio]

I think Elements is evil.

[Thespio]

I dont think its Muh316. the voting against the ic to be silly doesnt urk me.

[Thespio]

I think Elements is evil.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion

I feel like you are fascist and that makes you evil, did you support Benito Mussolini back when you were a child?

[Thespio]

no idea who that is.
the only political opinion i have every expressed is that brexit is bad

Google him. If you are in the UK you have no excuse not to know who he is ;p

[Thespio]

Think dictator of Italy

[Thespio]

Oh well, seems I am going to be the odd one regarding timezones. Maybe.

Thought Loopdan's voting behaviour is weird. The first time he pushes Munchmellow to the lead for no reason (well I get it, random voting phase etc.), I think for pushing some kind of reaction with increasing the pressure, but then he goes after muh who can basically defuse the situation by himself because self-vote. Seems kind of half-assed.

I disagree, i find this to be townie behavior, if he went to much into it i would write it off as LAME (Look At Me *I'm Town*) but because its more vague this makes me feel there is more to it. I assume its to apply pressure.

[Thespio]

Nah, a little bit too try-hard for me. Well to be fair, he wanted to give a reason anyway.

I don't understand how being vague is meant to be more pro town. Personally I prefer straight statements as they make someone more vulnerable.

Well the way i see it is Scum is the informed minority, the only thing they wont know is what we are thinking, in D1 someone just saying wait while we have so much time left to me seems to be keeping info from scum. Eventually yes, we will need the reason, but if its to draw out reactions i think its fine.

[Thespio]

So are you using "weird" as "I don't understand this" or as "this looks scum-motivated" or something else?

Kind of both. To be fair I have only played this game irl and so I know it only the way that your vote is final, so the whole voting mechanic here is a little bit new to me. On the other hand that what I said in #42 though.

I understand the concern, at this point who would you lynch? (keeping in mind there are two people who havent contributed)

[Thespio]

I interpret your move so that you push the second vote on people to pressure them. Alright. But in muh's case it's pointless, half the votes on him are basically himself. He can just shrug it off and unvote and *poof*... pointless. If you really wanted to pressure someone there were other and better options who already had one vote.

As for your second question that's what I am actually wondering about. But I am not sure if there is this early a serious lynch intention considering the length of the day.

Ok, I understand where you are coming from now. maybe we should see what happens?

[Thespio]

I understand the concern, at this point who would you lynch? (keeping in mind there are two people who havent contributed)

If nothing really good comes up which is worth a try then in doubt one of the inactives, since the silent ones always become a bother later. The lack of information gain is a problem then though. Then again I think this site has a good way to handle this issue so for me it's no big deal at the moment. So going by what I can see here, Loopdan would be my choice.

Im leaning towards the two inactives, because today we wont have any actually context to the game its better for town to keep people who are active (even if scum) alive because we can use them to sort out scum D2.

[Thespio]

So if I get this right, you are saying my vote was for pressure, but it's "pointless" pressure since muh can unvote, and that makes me scummy.

Can you explain why this makes me scummy? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I'd like to understand how you are thinking about this.

I think hes just susp of early pressure mixed with lack of information. I get it, perhaps you are both jumping the gun. maybe we should look at the less active players like Pvt and Munchmellow

[Thespio]

That's fine but they aren't here to talk to.

Well lets prepare questions, i think they might be in a different TZ

[Thespio]

I think this is a tvt fight

[Thespio]

I think all the active players at this point (iffy on elements and muh) are town

[Thespio]

I think all the active players at this point (iffy on elements and muh) are town

just to clarify, it's you, skellen and loopdan you think are town

Well i know Im town, these two fighting here doesnt seem staged, and they both seem to be coming from a town perspective, you are a town lean (even though you are fascist scum), but more nuetral, then Muh, then everyone else.

[Thespio]

even though you are fascist scum

only when playing secret hitler

I like you now, im adding you, I played a game where someone who was not hitler indicated they were at the beginning because they are dumb and all the fascists outed themselves when she was elected. was funny.

[Thespio]

Also the reply to #28 is still due.

I would say wait on this, you can bring it up in a while, but for now if they want to hide their reason let them, then scum wont know, only town will.

[Thespio]

To make it clear d1 I tend to lean more towards policy, I won’t push anything because we have so much time but since this is a newbie game I want everyone to understand if it is a NL or me I would prefer you kill me. A kill d1 should prepare town to win.

[Thespio]

Why the sudden change of hearts on Elements?

i was more so teasing, hence the talk about dictators.

[Thespio]

Thespio is correct that it's better to lynch than NL day1. But I don't like how he brought it up. It was out of the blue and looks like an attempt to declare his own towniness.

Super townie Like i said, i really want to get this out of the way where people who are new feel like they dont know enough and arent comfortable with a lynch. My IC Post. Ill be busy today (paying the dmv for plates) so ill try to keep an eye on the game but no promises until tonight. (im in the midwest)

[Thespio]

@Thesio - You've given out three TRs (town-reads) so far if I'm reading correctly. Can you please give maybe a sentence or two on each of these explaining why their words and actions make you think they are more likely town than scum?

Sure:
Me- obv town
Loopdan/Skellen- Your clash seemed tvt, as I stated earlier, beyond this the game is a little thin, so its the most town thing I am going on.
Element-I dont think theres anything particularly damning here, seemed genuine in their attempt to spark discussion.

this is where i am at

[Thespio]

Thespio - Have you ever rolled scum?

On here, no, on other sites yes. Are you looking through my town meta?

[Thespio]

Yeah I checked out your game history and didn't see any scum games, so just wanted to confirm I didn't miss anything.

Nope, Its been a solid 4 years since I rolled scum, and it was on a college forum. If you want a run down, the last time i was scum I lurked alot, and talked about girls alot. I'm married now so that wont be the case when i roll scum. Unfortunately you will have to go with my recent town games.

[Thespio]

i don't see why this is important in any way. the vote happened on the first page of the game after muh voted themselves to spite loopdan. i can't see how there could be any reason for loopdan to vote them other then something along the lines of "well screw you too"

I would agree with this if he wouldn't have implied there is more to it with the "Later" in #29. Meanwhile he said it is as you said. Eeerrhh why was he even doing it so ominously in first place then.

How do you read Elements and I?

[Thespio]

It's difficult to read Elements at the moment, at least for me, so I can't really see how you are leaning more towards town in his case. Comments here and there some things, but not enough to classify him on town/scum side. Normally I would think it's slightly scummy (I miss a little bit the initiative), however this early there isn't much juicy stuff to work with anyway.

As for you I am struggling with you a little bit. I found your role in the exchange between me and loopdan slightly interesting, since you were kind of "moderating" between us. It would be consistent with your opinion that two townies went against each other instead of the using the moment to team up against a side, which is a positive thing. Of course a scum-you would have known better and could as well used that moment to get in a postive standing with two active townies. By feeling I am rather leaning towards the former. I was a bit wary when you put all the active players on the town side while I wouldn't even find it possible to say much about the others, as you can see in my comment about Elements, so that only the inactives are left for scum. A bit a too certain statement for this early. Leaning slightly towards town, but here and there are some things that remind me to keep an eye on you.

Yeah... and on that note im fairly certain im right, that the people who are more active are our town. You are newer to this site, so i would recommend you look at my newbie games and loopdans, you will notice in these game specifically that scum tends to go less active, there is a little more effort that has to be put in and these games are usually peoples first few so they tend not to care. I could be wrong but this has the making of one of those games. we have a few less active players and quite a few more active players. if you would like to push me so you feel more comfortable i am fine with that, i am willing to put my money where my mouth is too.

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

[Thespio]

Do you really feel it's double bussing? And why?

seconded

I was just playing devil's advocate on that one to see if someone was going to jump on it. I'm getting a good townread on Loopdan though. It looks like he's giving us game advancing content which is nice. It's generally towny if someone is going through the effort of reading metas.

Also, now that we've had a bit of an icebreaker UNVOTE: muh316

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Don't you think a policy lynch on an inactive player D1 will get us less information and we'll be in the same spot as we were D1?

I’m the only one on her, I’m not trying to lynch her I’m trying to indirectly prod her.

[Thespio]

Do you really feel it's double bussing? And why?

seconded

I was just playing devil's advocate on that one to see if someone was going to jump on it. I'm getting a good townread on Loopdan though. It looks like he's giving us game advancing content which is nice. It's generally towny if someone is going through the effort of reading metas.

Also, now that we've had a bit of an icebreaker UNVOTE: muh316

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Don't you think a policy lynch on an inactive player D1 will get us less information and we'll be in the same spot as we were D1?

Thespio, why did you choose DeadBeat specifically? There's also PvtUrist, Munchmellow, and Spiral.

she has one post, I want to see more.

[Thespio]

Nope, Its been a solid 4 years since I rolled scum, and it was on a college forum. If you want a run down, the last time i was scum I lurked alot, and

talked about girls alot. I'm married now so that wont be the case when i roll scum.

Unfortunately you will have to go with my recent town games.

Meaning scum!Thespio doesn't talk about girls. By this logic teh Thespio is teh scum.

Sound logic :p

Reads so far;

{Urist} conf-town
{} strong-town
{Elements, Loopdan, Skellen} null-town
{Munchmellow, muh316, Spiral, MissDeadbeat} null
{Thespio} null-scum

Is there a reason youve kept up but arent active?

[Thespio]

Thespio; isn't talking about girls=scum safely parks vote on inactive player rather than engaging with the more active players

You didnt really answer my question, its hard to engage with active players, the people who have been active as i said seem to be town, you really like to play that line of not being here but pushing fault onto someone without much cause.

[Thespio]

Here's my readlist:
Town: Skellen ( UNVOTE: Skellen ),
Null-town: PvT, Elements, Enter
Null: Loopdan
Mixed feelings (null-scum): thespio, muh

I don't have a reading on MDb.

Skellen- Skellen/Loopdan seemed TvT or at worst TvS, but Skellen reads town to me anyway.

PvT - more town than scum, even though not as active as usually, but I think this is NAI right now.

Elements - actually don't have much to say about him. Townvibe and didn't say anything that I could scumread, so I lean town.

Enter - strong entrance that seemed pro-town

Loopdan - maybe IC paranoia but I just can't read him as town. For now he is null to me.

Thespio- I already explained what bothered me. I know it was only one post that really stood out for me, but that made me read his ISO as coming from a scum perspective and I could see it.

Muh - I know selfvote was in RVS and as a joke, but O don't like it. I think it is a kind of joke, that would make someone look goofy town - good for scum to do it. I also disliked his double bussing comment. But even after his explaination I think just stating the other possible outcome is not helpfull and just makes you look like you have an opinion without actually sorting people.

VOTE: Thespio

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

[Thespio]

Ok guys, I just got back from the family ill post my reads, my vote will be changing.

[Thespio]

Reads(town to scum)
Loopdan- Loopdan is progressive in the game, pushes everything forward, I feel like their experience shows and they are getting flak for it. (@skellen, the reason why there are no skum reads for loopdan is because there isnt enough clash between the less active members, its one thing about newbie games that take place over holidays that suck. now is when im developing mine because people are actually posting)
Skellen- The clash and pressure they are misplacing on loopdan is genuine IMO, i wish they would redirect it.
(null)

Enter- I feel enter is missing the game, they havent really talked about anyone just pointed alot of fingers. both at an SE and IC, it comes across as a lack of trust in experience. I do think they are almost a town lead.
Elements- this one is shifting for me, in the RVS i was joking with them but i dont think they left this stage, im not getting a scum vibe but im getting a *I dont care* vibe. their posts dont actually lead to anything. I never thought they were scum at the beginning i was poking them to see a reaction, didnt really get one

Munchmellow/muh316- not enough posts
missdeadbeat-null, 1 post, hate players like this

(skum lean)

PvtUrist, PvtUrist, PvtUrist: look at their posts, dear god they tunneled me from the start, they are watching the game but not contributing, they arent progressing the game, they get on me for points that make no sense, they literally dont bring up anything that is even questionable, I understand why people thought Post 69 was susp it was an innocent gesture since 3 people were playing the game BUT PvtUrist didnt even care, they focused on me saying i would talk about girls (which i said as a joke because i was a single college kid when i played last and now I'm married), they then switch it to something utterly stupid again. The things i look for in scum are:
1- Inactivity
2- Accusations for reasons unknown
3- Avoiding confrontation

PvtUrist hits all of these, so PvtUrist here are my questions for you:
Explain why you think im scum
Explain why your reads on everyone else are so vaugue
How do you feel about the lack of activity
Why are you lurking

VOTE: PvtUrist
Would still like more from Deadbeat but they seem to have left the building....

@Enter give me your honest opinion about PvtUrist, also whats your lynch order at this point?

[Thespio]

[L-1] on Pvt btw

[Thespio]

1. I don't know you but I probably have around as much experience as you do. The fact that you don't know that shows you barely read my posts. Please actually read them and play mafia instead of being dismissive.

PvtUrist is town./

You and Loopdan are scum.

I severely doubt you do, the fact you think offsite experience makes you on grounds with the meta here is silly. I’ve read your posts, what makes him town, explain what you think about his read on me.

[Thespio]

@Thespio

This is more scumhunting than Dan has done all game. I challenge you to find a post of Dans that competes w/ this in any way shape or form.

My reads are lame so here's a few questions;

@Skellen ignoring the 2 inactive players, who do you feel to be the scummiest/towniest right now? How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

It would certainly be convenient if the

lurking scums

inactive players decided to show up.

This is more reads and more thought than anything Loopdan has at the moment.

Read update;

{Urist} conf town
{Skellen, Loopdan} lean town
{Elements} null town
{Enter, MissDeadbeat, Munchmellow, muh316} null
{Thespio} null scum

Skellen; Loopdan explains how I feel about him/her well in 126

Loopdan; ISO reads town

Elements; felt town from first read, but I guess there wasn't as much content in his posts than I previously thought they did.

Enter; feeling null, interested in where he reads Loopdan as red.

MDb/Munch; would appreciate a few more posts from either of them.

muh316; null right now

Thespio;

isn't talking about girls=scum

safely parks vote on inactive player rather than engaging with the more active players

In addition, PvtUrist is pushing his scumread (you) and his reason makes sense (you're pushing lurkers, bro, that's dumb. Stop doing it.) Also he has a reason. Unlike Loopdan.

Ok m8 lets go over this, putting aside that you think offsite experience makes you a master of the meta on a completely other site, and flipping out because you dont think anyone is reading your posts (which we are), there is nothing in what you are posting that isnt just you repeating yourself. You think its loopdan so you post 4 things about why you think its loopdan but they are all the same reason. You think its me and you make a page long post about how its me but is mostly just quotes and you playing WIFOM. You also seem to get arrogant over lurkers, why would town be INTENTIONALLY LURKING as Pvt has? who is that helping? he even acknowledged he was and said its just because hes lazy. WHY DO YOU BUY THAT?

Now another thing, why is pvts case against me better then any speculation loopdan has made?
Lets follow his actions:
Post 10: RVS on me
Post 71: Thinks its sketchy i had banter with elements. which you should see as me interacting with town since you are so dug in on loopdan and I.
Post 110: Pvt calling me as scum slipping because i made a joke about how as a college kid playing with other college kids in my college we talked about girls and I asked a female in game a question.

EXPLAIN WHY THIS MAKES ANY SENSE

Post 111: Puts me as scum with no reason beyond the prior
Post 112: asks skellen a decent question, believes its be for the reason in post 110
Post 132: pushes me for the same reason in post 110
Post 133: filler
Post 134: States he is lurking intentionally
Post 136: Changes his reason for it being me to trying to get activity out of less active players, also thinks im not engaging with active players. Which I was, ive posted more then him most of which was town hunting and establishing who i think is town

So heres my questions, why do you think pushing a joke makes him town? why do you think 9 posts, 1 filler, 7 pushing a joke, 1 a change from joke to policy, are somehow helping us here? If you think hes town defend his reasoning. to me it looks like he is trying to get his rvs vote lynched, never met a townie who has played like that.

[Thespio]

Spoiler:

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

Wait. I thought you were joking about the scum slip thing in 110. You serious?

1. Loopdans' vote has changed like six times on six pages. That's actually ridiculous and insane for a game where nothing has happened.

You aren't reading very closely. I've voted four times. You must be including Element's two votes that I quoted in 18. But even if it had been six times. So what? Are you arguing that it's more likely that I'm scum throwing out these votes to try and see what will stick, than I am town trying to sort players through discussion and pressure? Explain why vote changes like mine are scummy. You don't get to just declare something is scummy and have everyone believe you.

2. With Loopdans vote changing like the weather in Texas, this is the one of the few times he ACTUALLY has an even close to scum read, and his vote doesn't follow. This is weird on Thespio, specifically, because I'm scumreading Thespio because of Thespio's own actions in addition to his interactions with Loopdan which all seem more fake than soy milk. (no offense to soy)

You are conflating me saying that I don't like how Thespio brought up the "lynch me before no-lynch" thing with me thinking he is scum. That's not how that works.

3.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Loopdan agrees and says "thanks, I agree, I am town" no explanation, but asks one of the other players to explain his post on Thespio. Here's why that's weird:
a) He didn't do it himself
b) Scum LOVE to know what town thinks of their scum buddies
c) His last post called Thespio as scummy
d) His "just curious about your thinking" is so noncommittal.

You entirely missed this. TvT was Loopdan v Skellen. But now I see why you missed it because I wrote Thespio instead of Skellen when I asked Munch about it.

You last point was about me being noncommittal. OK. It's page six. I found one strong townread and that's pretty good progress. Contrary to what you seem to think you are doing here, you don't solve the game on page six.

Also, what is your experience playing Mafia?

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Looks like TvT to me, too. Could also be SvT (not sure about Loopdan).

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

Someone needs to shake this game up.
We are still pretty much in RVS.

@Skellen - The tone wasn't intended to be ominous. It was just my way of making it seem like maybe I had an actual reason to scum-read you for your self-vote. Sometimes that leads to others jumping on the wagon, sometimes it leads to others screaming over and over that they demand an explanation of the unexplained vote, sometimes nothing really happens.

Skellen's post 56 is pretty good. I don't agree with everything he says, but his thinking is clear and he does look to be approaching this exchange from a mindset that wants to solve rather than lynch.

Skellen, you should be using your vote. I know you said you come from live games where a vote is final, but here you need to use it as a weapon. If nothing else, you should vote whoever appears scummiest. It allows for others to then build on those "wagons" with their votes and that's where pressure and sorting of alignments starts accelerating. You can always move your vote as your reads change.

OK, so I thought I was the second vote on munchmellow until I saw that VC (vote-count) at the top. I didn't even notice Elements had moved votes.

VOTE: munchmellow

VOTE: pvturist
Whoever is second to make a vote with an arbitrary reason is scum

Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

all loopdan of the above are loopdan posts with more progression then all of pvts combined.

[Thespio]

And I hate to break it to you, dude, but you've been pinging MY scumdar since page 2, and PU ACTUALLY has a decent reason for voting you. You should stop w/ the OMGUS

Two things. if you are under an alt list your accounts. explain what point he has. thats it. then i will vote myself because of how toxicly bad you are at this game. you think pushing a joke is a serious development and you follow up with me saying we need to push lurkers as a condemnation. its cute but i dont think anyone here is reading it the same way, including pvt. im slipping you down, sr all the way. that or youre anti town. Im leaning scum because i want to hope someone with alts (playing a newbie game in a newbie slot) wouldnt be anti town.

[Thespio]

Ok so the reason you are supporting him is for 1 post, the fact I said we need to look at lurkers. Wow. Please post your read on me, hard to understand someone when they haven’t built a case against you.

[Thespio]

Ill be working late today, til about 7pm cst, you can hammer then. @Enter, i will self hammer when im off work if it will lead you to seriously consider Pvt, you are lynching me based on their one post. Its not against the rules to any degree if i think it will help town focus and help us ultimately win. We got this, I think your susp for blindly supporting Pvt but you gotta do what your gut says. Just question them tomorrow.

[Thespio]

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

[Thespio]

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

That's fair, I have no intent of hammering while there's valid discussion going on.

Also I want to apologize for antagonizing you just reading through this I think you are town (if you read my recent games you will see me do it alot), Pvts still is my main scum read, I understand your reasoning (if im scum and he started on me me why would he leave) I would like more from him. After this I would say i TR you. ill post a reply to all of it in about 2 hours.

[Thespio]

Ok, first thing first - @Enter, I agree with a lot of things that you wrote, but this ginormous walls just seem a bit too much. Reading through those feels like being back at med school studying pathology thinking - do I really have to read all of these or could I just skip some stuff. I read it once and will probably not reread it and Thespio got one thing right - you are stating same thing multiple times.
And if I counted correctly, Thespio is still at L-2, so you can't hammer until you get someone else on wagon. And why the rush. There is one player that we didn't even hear from and we are only half through D1. I don't agree that the game is basically solved.

Now, @Thespio, for someome who says that can't read me due to my inactivity you could at least answer my questions.

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

And I prefer quality to quantity, but I can post some fluff if that will help your readings.

And second thing - what is with all this self sacrificing and self-hammering stuff. I think self-hammering is anti-town. Why? Because as a Vanilla, you can only be 100% sure about one player's alignment - your own. So why would you hammer someone that is 100% town. I don't think that actually helps town.
So, another question - why did you offer to self-hammer?

You have a little less then Enter so im going to start with you, I would lynch in order of what i provided last page, Pvt first.

Second, im glad you asked. The reason is Strategic, you are right, I only know my role. However, I win with town even if im dead, I solemnly believe the saying that if your name is front and center you will die, If I die and I state what I believe is best, then I flip town, all town now knows what a proven townie thinks for the future. It lets me make a definite impact.

Stats wise having a townie die D1 means we go into D2 with 2/8 people being scum, so theres a 1/4 chance we get scum. I leave my notes, tell you its Pvt (which it is) then we move to a 1/7 situation where hopefully you can use day2 to mine for the other scum. Im reading over Enters post and he makes a few good points for him, I just cant see the fight from earlier being fake, but ill get into that when i reply to enters.

Thats why, I feel its a strategic move, if i dont die scum could leave me alive and just try to misslynch me d2 and we would have lost a more important day.

[Thespio]

Alright. So I've been pretty back and forth on my read for Thespio, which is why I've been really rather hoping to get a Loopdan lynch today so we can re-examine Thespio tomorrow.

The biggest part causing me to reconsider my scum read on him is how quickly the wagon formed. One thing that is often good to look at in mafia games is who is pushing what wagon and when. Day 1 wagons are often really quite hard to work up to a lynch, especially w/o scum. This is one reason why very often townies are lynched on day 1; scum controls a little over 20% of the vote and they both know who they want lynched - anyone but them. The Thespio wagon built pretty quickly after my arrival, which is somewhat surprising, since I didn't really push him at all. My thought is that town was looking for someone to push that wasn't a lurker, but was under the influence of loopdan/Thespio => didn't really want to try to solo push one of them against the crowd. So, considering Thespio is at a potential L-1 right now, let's look at who's on this wagon:

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

And for the sake of analysis, we'll consider Thespio's 193 as a self-vote.

Ending it here to cut it up a little, I agree with the logic provided up to this point. I also agree its odd how fast my wagon built. I did explain the idea behind self voting here (post209)

Munchmellow doesn't have very many posts this game, but the ones she does have, I follow and share a thought process with. She suspects Loopdan in 70, reexamines her read and explains why Thespio feels off in 137 (which I agree with, BTW, the whole "self -vote" thing is a level of AtE that shouldn't be accomplished by anyone other than a newbie, IMO)
[BTW, Thespio, if you're reading this and you still think for some reason that Loopdan's 92 was serious, you should notice that Munchmellow responds as if he's asking about you and he still doesn't notice, which should trigger the thought in you that it's pretty apparent loopdan is asking questions to ask questions and has nothing he's looking for] Anyways. Munchmellow posts reads in 140 - which I agree with, and it makes me happy that it's a pretty full reads list. I feel pretty solid on Munchmellow for town.

I find this interesting, do you think Loopdan to some degree has aligned with me for favor? it does look like he defends me to some degree. I still want more, an active town is a happy town, but I lean town after reexamining them.

Elements follows Munchmellow. ISO-ing him and one could easily see how you might think you're ISO-ing the same person. Again, I agree with his thoughts, his reservations on the whole self-vote thing, his questioning of double-bussing. I like him for town.

Ive leaned town on him for a while, The reason I like loopdan is I read him town after his spat, it genuinely seemed TvT.

PvtUrist - This one is weird, because it does still feel, in the slightest way, a bit weird to me that he has maintained his vote on Thespio since game start. But. Here's why I think he's town: He was the first player to drop reads. Loopdan's vote on him is super weird and he avoids responsibility for his PvtUrist vote (which loopdan would WANT responsibility for PvtUrist flip if he was bussing his buddy). When PvtUrist did drop those questions in 112, they were pretty decent questions and indicate some small amount of town - motivation. Yes, my town read on him is weak. No, it doesn't matter, because my scum read on Loopdan is ridiculously strong, and there isn't two scum in [PvtUrist, Loopdan]

I disagree here, I dont think they are mutually exclusive as scum. Its possible they are simply distancing while avoiding contact. Pvts ISO puts loopdan as a town to null lean and beyond that avoids contact (IMO thats how scum ought to play, also what i look for when hunting partners) They stayed on me all game, which should be a red flag and it is for me. I understand you read him as town based on 112 but the question in reguards to me was based on him thinking me interacting with another player was a scum tell.

Finally, Thespio:
I disagree with the idea of lynching yourself. Let's start there. Yes I was ok with it when I started mafia, but I've grown and changed a lot, I think. You have a role-pm from the mod that says you're town. That is the largest confirmation you will get and the first piece to the logic puzzle that is mafia. (it's a little more than a logic puzzle, but bear with me). The only time you should ever be ok with yourself being lynched is never, IMO, because you should always be doing your best to be the largest asset to town when you're alive, and when you're dead, you have no control over the game. I have seen so many times where it looks like town has won because everything is set up perfectly and some charming mafia goon wins over the heart of the guy heading off his lynch and all of a sudden town loses in a 3p LyLo. Sure, at the end of day yesterday, everyone agreed that if you self-voted then they would lynch the mafia goon you were so certain should die if you flipped town, but people change. People's read change. A lot. Especially over night. However, I will not lynch based solely off the fact that people are willing to play sub-optimal town games in this way, because I'm pretty sure there are mafia players that will disagree with me on the self-vote being suboptimal. Whatever.

I disagree, i explained my logic, its the same as having a proven town, tomorrow you kill Pvt, and its the same as any other outcome for today. we walk into an optimal d3 1-4 scum:town ratio

Let's get to the next issue: Self-vote threats: This is an entirely different matter because it is the lowest of low AtE. While talk of lynching yourself can be considered mafia theory, threatening to self-vote is a spastic response of emotion that belongs nowhere except every once in a while, from a newbie, in a newbie game. Then the threat should be squashed by the IC and everyone should move on with their lives, because it's bad. It is very bad. I view self-votes in mafia games like I view threats to wreck your own car because it would get attention. Will I lynch for it? Not always. Did it make me think he was almost definitely scum for a moment? Yes. This is one of the very few places that meta-ing someone does come in handy for me. When I see someone make dumb newbie mistakes like this, I go back and look at past games and see if they make the same mistakes in those games as town. So, let's see what we can find:

In Newbie 1640, Post 190 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

This helps no one. if you honestly got him lynched and he was town, then its likely a scum driven lynch and thus if you are town you will have scum backing as well. Ultimately you could both be town.

Indicating an understanding that self-flipping and threats of such are rarely reasonable.

And in Newbie 1625, Post 982 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

There kill last night is basically WIFOM. I think its odd you countered immediately... But I also think Jorams timely absence is quite mysterious too... So im lookin @ Jorams post about being investigated a possible scum slip. I also think Aku is lurking pretty badly... Anyone have any think aku might have used Bulba as a train after we all were questioning him?

These games are from years ago, ive changed, i understand personal loss for general gain, I became a stockbroker, got a job with the govt, learning to play losses is important, and I didnt understand it then, read my more recent games.

Again indicating how much WIFOM surrounds a kill. Sure, he's talking about a night kill here, but the point is across that once you're dead, you're not as effective and it is so easy to WIFOM everything out. Even if PvtUrist was scum, day 2 when we tried to lynch him, he would start explaining everything for Thespio and Thespio wouldn't be there to correct him. I've seen it so much, and Thespio seems to understand this, too, which makes me think he's prolly scum, using AtE.

Same as before.

Up until this point, I had been doubting my read on Thespio, but the threats to self-vote is so bad and talk of self-lynch over no-lynch is so bad, I don't think I can fathom him flipping town.

In addition he had some weird interactions at beginning of day, his teasing flip w/ his read on elements was weird, and his pushing of lurkers is bad. I also don't like how he dismissed the Skellen v Loopdan as TvT and Loopdan chimed in. Anyways, I'm super distracted right now, so I will get back to this later, but as of right now, I feel pretty solid on my scum read on Thespio.

Look at it from my POV, I never proposed we lynch anyone with 1 post, i recommended we examine them, my post about priority of lynch was something i felt needed to be posted based on my last few games where newbies fight to avoid a lynch d1 because there is so little info. Out of place now that i look at it but well intended.

If i understand you dont hard read Pvt Town, but you hard scum read Loopdan.

@Loopdan, i would like to see a reply to this, your thoughts on these reads in general.
@enter, Where do you want to go from here? I understand your loopdan read, i would pref not to lynch, would you quickly go over Pvts ISO and let me know what urks and what pleases you?

[Thespio]

btw thats a *i would pref not to lynch loopdan^

[Thespio]

Im going to look into our interactions and get back to you, grabbing lunch.

[Thespio]

@enter, this is what I see, He doesnt ever directly address me but he does attempt to follow me to some degree. At first look it seems to be TR me but the vote on deadbeat is offputting He did seem hesitant to push lurkers and jumped on after stating he thought i was susp. If loopdan is scum who is his partner?


@ loopdan, why did you vote with me not against me when you thought i was being odd?

[Thespio]

The more I look at it the weirder i see loopdan, even the fight was a little off. I am not at the point where i feel like i would lynch, anyone care to provide more perspective?

[Thespio]

Just taking a moment in the middle of my searching for Loopdan's partner to point out that this moderator is off the charts great. The vote count and vote record on page 1 with links is game changing. This is my nomination for moderator of the year, you can mark me in the record right here and now folks.

I second this!

[Thespio]

@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?

[Thespio]

Got too distracted so I am keeping it short. Since he is the other hot topic in the vote count at the moment it's next to Thespio. Regarding him I am a little bit indecisive. Rethinking his play yesterday made him suspicious in my eyes, his defence is a mixed bag for me now. I think his reads seem comprehensible from his point of view, but then right after that he defends Loopdan twice with pitting him against PvtUrist. Ugh. Why even doing someone else's job? I think Loopdan did even the same with Thespio? If these two are the scum team it's more turning into a slapstick team. This is actually fuel for Enter's original scumteam Loopdan/Thespio theory, although it's becoming so obvious that I just can't believe it can be that easy.

Otherwise his defence is rather predictable, I mean I share his suspicion of PvtUrist, but I was hoping his opinion of Loopdan would be a little bit more ambitious as I kind of hinted yesterday. However now his opinion seems to change, I am not sure how to interpret that. Either he is really questioning him more or it's the last effort to burn some bridges between him and Loopdan, although I might think it's almost too late for that. Guess it will also depends now too what Loopdan's next move is and where Thespio's new read is leading to.

Help me understand, i think my view may be skewed because up until now I had considered him town and he had voted with me, i think i was viewing him as a friend in game rather then a suspect and its caused me to overlook some of his actions, what with him still urks you?

[Thespio]

In post 223, Thespio wrote:
@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?


I will seriously reconsider my take on PvtUrist

Ok if I flip town who do you lynch?

Im rereading the game in between work (going very slow) just want to establish your PoE

[Thespio]

I am rereading everything at the moment (including your guys exchange *shiver*).

Dont shiver, ive got to know him better then anyone else this game, its the beauty to clashing.

@all, This is the decission ive made, after rereading Loopdan these posts stand out:

That's fine but they aren't here to talk to.

^ this one stand out because he ended up doing it anyways, he sided against me and then after I supported him post Loopdan v. Skullen fight he flips and votes a lurker, It seems to me they were trying to cooperate with me even though they literally posted i was susp. When he fought with Skullen his demeanor was different but here:

Spoiler:

I'll give a few points refuting Enter's case, but I really don't want to start dueling wall posts. Nobody wants to have to read through that and it can end up overwhelming the game. So in place of massive posts back and forth, I'll make a couple points and then leave it up to the other players to follow-up if they have questions or need clarification.

@Enter - TvT was referencing Loopdan vs. Skellen. Sorry you wasted so many words but you need to reread those interactions.

That's my point, dude. YOU ARE loopdan. Thespio says "I think this is TvT" referencing you and skellen. And you say "I agree"

My point is: glad to know you're town.

TvT means "Town versus Town." I think it's just really very obvious that I was saying I think Skellen is likely town.

And the thing about Thespio doesn't matter. You said:

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

So you're either asking for why are they townreading Thespio (who you JUST scumread) or why are they townreading you (which you should agree with anyways).

Again, the TvT thing was about Skellen. Again, I never said I scumread Thespio.

And I said that you changed your vote "LIKE" six times. FOUR on six pages is STILL ridiculous, considering especially how d1 went over and the last day. Stop trying to hide behind technicalities.

Stop misrepresenting my play.

1. Four votes on six pages is

not

ridiculous, especially at the start of the game. For you to use this as part of your case is absurd.
2. I'm not going to argue with you over whether four is "like six," but the way you just doubled-down on using this as proof that I'm scum seems indicative of how you are trying to force a case on me rather than develop a genuine read.

So, as I said, (and you accuse me of not reading closely), you saying you don't like it and not putting your vote on him is wrong.

I would feel your constant vote change is MORE acceptable if you had maybe put your vote on him here, because this is one of THE ONLY TIMES IN THE GAME where you give reasoning for thinking someone might be scum. ACTUALLY THE CLOSEST YOU'VE GOT TO A SCUM READ and your vote doesn't change to him? WHY?

So this is the only insightful thing Enter has said about my play, so I'll be glad to explain it. I liked Thespio's entrance to the game and didn't have any problems with him until that one post talking about no-lynch. Do you know how often town players make scummy sounding posts? I don't vote every single time I see one, sorry. Especially not with a newer player who has, let's just say it, kinda an odd style. And I don't think voting Thespio there would have helped me sort alignment when we had already established a conversational rapport. 76 is the post in question here. If anybody wants to see my train of thought, go back and check my next few posts after that.

Arg. This post is already too long.

Where he seems almost angry and wordy. It seems to have struck a cord with him that is the opposite of what I thought was town (honestly missed this interaction all together until Enter made me reread him)

Then we have

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

&

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions, indicating you have zero interest in actually sorting my alignment. Like I said before, you are either confbiasing or scum. I'm not going to get sucked into your never-ending tunnel of misrepresentations and outright lies (see 161 for just one example).

If other players think Enter has some valid points and want to point those out to me I'll be glad to engage and answer as best I can. As far as I can tell Enter's case on me is that I didn't do enough to advance the game-state (which I already admitted before he showed up) and that I placed 6 (oops I mean 4) votes without posting huge walls of explanation.

After I'm done reading some of Enter's prior games I'll come back with (hopefully) a better stance on Badtown v Scum.

which just disregards enters entire case. Hes an IC, he should be able to respond to attacks without saying "You haven't even asked me any questions" he should be able to provide explanations to each point on why they are wrong.

Overall at this point I do see that they have absolutely no push towards progress in context, the posts i initially thought were dont have any contextual push to them... The vote flip also feels unnatural, say it how it is but I do think Pvt and Loopdan could be scum team, im going to look at their interactions more.
PEDIT

I personally do not think Loopdan plans on responding to the large slew of questions I have given him. Based on his most recent post, he appears to be ignoring me.

Literally wrote this as I was^

[Thespio]

At this point I feel like Loopdan to me seems scummy, I honestly believe i missed most of his actions over the weekend when I was at my friends funeral. Apologize guys, I do want to say that Pvt is more scummy in my book, them hitting at each other doesnt make either mutually exclusive and I would prefer we lynch Pvt at this point.

[Thespio]

Let me pitch you a better deal. You agree that PvtUrist can't be scum if Loopdan is scum, right? And you agree that Loopdan is scummy? Let's flip Loopdan. If he's red, we don't have to worry about Pvt. If he's green, we have had more time from Pvt to examine his posts and the like.

So we play my logic with the self lynch, we have a guaranteed town if he flips green, if he is we know where to go, if he isnt we got scum, then there is a possibility of a perfect game. Im hesitant but its logical, give me some time to mull it over.

[Thespio]

At this point I feel like Loopdan to me seems scummy, I honestly believe i missed most of his actions over the weekend when I was at my friends funeral. Apologize guys, I do want to say that Pvt is more scummy in my book, them hitting at each other doesnt make either mutually exclusive and I would prefer we lynch Pvt at this point.

Let me pitch you a better deal. You agree that PvtUrist can't be scum if Loopdan is scum, right? And you agree that Loopdan is scummy? Let's flip Loopdan. If he's red, we don't have to worry about Pvt. If he's green, we have had more time from Pvt to examine his posts and the like.

Also I dont think they are Mutually Exclusive, meaning they could be teammates just seperating, counter counter deal, Ill vote loopdan if we get loopdan to talk about Pvt and I think its fishy. Before we he flips I would like it enitrely ruled out that he is scum.

[Thespio]

@Ok Enter I will play your game, logically it fills in with what i want, He is experienced, he will at least try to show town vibes.

[Thespio]

@skellen, what do you do for each way loopdan can flip. I was still rereading the game and tring to connect dots, i got there.

If hes town im going pvt, if hes scum im going to be seriously looking at Deadbeats slot.

I will put him at L-1 Later but dont want to risk a LOLHammer

[Thespio]

Yeah, I know I didn't play well either. I could have done more to try and convince you all, but Enter's volume of posting and never-ending nonsense makes this game just not worth it anymore.

GL town. You are going to need it.

YOU ARENT DEAD YET, I believe/d in you, why are you giving in so easy?

[Thespio]

@Enter, if he flips town how do you see Muh316 at this point?

[Thespio]

^ @Loopdan, if you are town explain this vote so we can take your logic into D2.

[Thespio]

Im debating if Loopdan is just trying to pull a fast one and distract from his own lynch or is genuinely concerned about MDb.

[Thespio]

Im debating if Loopdan is just trying to pull a fast one and distract from his own lynch or is genuinely concerned about MDb.

I think you mean muh, not Mdb.

Obviously I'm not 100% confident on Muh. Naming scum day1 is never easy. So tomorrow don't just insta-lynch whoever I said is scum today. That'd be pretty bad. Play the game. Lo ok at everyone and re-read day1. Don't let Enter derail the game-state with mountains of text.

Well yeah, but if its simply policy, and there are two scum, you would think you had an opinion about more then 1 person.

[Thespio]

It's not a policy lynch. He's actively lurking and providing very minimal information for town to work with.

so is Pvt, how do you feel about him?

[Thespio]

I'm pretty null on Pvt. His play is more relaxed than muh and when he asks questions it looks more natural.

How do you feel about him tunneling me and about his reason for voting at first?

[Thespio]

Actually, after reading that old post again just now I really do think Enter is more likely to flip scum than muh.

VOTE: Enter

I dont think that old post reflects on him now, if you flip town I will seriously consider him, i think Muh is a little misplaced, so until they post more I dont think I could read them.

[Thespio]

Alright I think I've said everything I need to say.

So go ahead and lynch me or lynch Enter. I'll gladly 1v1 with him now.

I DO NOT think we should be lynching outside Loopdan and Enter today. Scum at this point would love to move the lynch off of me because I've essentially claimed VT and they want to hit a PR or get a PR claim day1.

I’m fine seeing the 1v1, and I agree with the conjecture that we shouldn’t have anyone claiming D1, reguardless of role, as to avoid losing a PR d1

[Thespio]

Loopdan I think your misrepping him to a certain degree, we clashed and while you came up it’s because we discussed our scum reads. I think you make a good point if you flip town I’ll seriously go concider a PVT and Enter team. It will guarantee we get atleast 1 scum though, I think you are cornered and throwing wild punches, before I flipped you were nonchalant and showing low effort. It seems survivalistic, then I’m feeling Pvt, I’m not close to lynching Enter, if you picked a fight with him I might have flipped.

If you flip town I move from there.

[Thespio]

Ok if I flip town who do you lynch?

Notice how he said

if

and not when. Almost like he's not even sure that he's town.

Will post more later, this one just caught my eye.

It’s not a word game I was at work, that post took several tries to complete. Also it’s an If because I may not get flipped at all.

[Thespio]

Off work!

[Thespio]

Looks like a lot has happened while I was away. Feel free to shoot me a few questions while I read through the new pages.

I think you are scum, can you give a read on anyone? Read loopdan, what’s your thoughts?

[Thespio]

I also don't like how many town drops? is that the right words? thespio has done e.g. "lynch me over no lynch" and "I will put him at L-1 Later but dont want to risk a LOLHammer" and "Also I want to apologize for antagonizing you just reading through this I think you are town (if you read my recent games you will see me do it alot)"

Understand, I am, and would still like a PvT lynch. Period. However it does not help town in any way if i tunnel Loopdan. I think the problem you are having is you see genuine action as some sort of game, I would prefer D1 in a newbie game no one make it to [L-1] unless im comfortable with the lynch. I was also genuinely sorry since I have a history of violent clashes, look at my Meta.

Explain why Pvt isnt even on your radar? where is Loopdan?

[Thespio]

I feel like weve had enough chatter to make this vote VOTE: Loopdan

[Thespio]

Loopdan is now at [L-1]

[Thespio]

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is: Pvt
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is: Elements/Muh - the people I haven't ruled out completely yet

[Thespio]

This obviously makes me question Enter's alignment more and upon reading Thespio's iso i can definitely see the possibility of an Enter/Thespio scum team going on.

At this point I am willing if he flips town to view him as scum and start my vote on him, I am verily sure he is town right now albeit loopdan flipping town makes him either an anti-town or scum. But at this point with the case presented I doubt I will have to look at him like scum.

Could you post your opinion of his ISO?

[Thespio]

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is: Thespio
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is: Enter

This is interesting, can you explain how you went from reading us as a team to reading us as polar opposites?

[Thespio]

Could you post your opinion of his ISO?

Yes, but itll take me a while to get through all of it

Fair enough!

[Thespio]

Before I'm hammered I want everyone to post the following info. Just copy and paste and add your answer. No explanations needed. Just a name for each.

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is:
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is:

Don't answer this if you can avoid it (some people already have). The reason you don't do this is because it really helps scum know who to kill - It gives away who they're gonna have a hard time lynching (note #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum).

Wouldn't this just get into WIFOM? if i was scum and killed elements it would be incriminating, if you killed him to frame me it would have the same outcome. Doesnt more information about views help town?

[Thespio]

^Ok, ill buy this to some degree, but dont we already have general reads, and the vc makes it clear who wants who dead?

[Thespio]

My thoughts are you two are scum team pushing on Loopdan, so if he flips town i will continue with that train of thought. But if loopdan flips scum that's me theory out the window and i highly doubt Enter would bus his scum partner day one so vigorously hence him being my biggest town read

I think this is flipped then right? If he flips scum you will TR Enter because you dont believe in bussing? if hes town you would think we are team so its both of us with a lean on me?

[Thespio]

^Ok, ill buy this to some degree, but dont we already have general reads, and the vc makes it clear who wants who dead?

To an extent. But you'll notice that more than half of the votes are now on a dead player, which makes it a bit harder.

Ah I see, so limit information before N1.

[Thespio]

Thespio, i think you might have misread Loopdan's question

You know what, i absolutely did.

[Thespio]

My thoughts are you two are scum team pushing on Loopdan, so if he flips town i will continue with that train of thought. But if loopdan flips scum that's me theory out the window and i highly doubt Enter would bus his scum partner day one so vigorously hence him being my biggest town read

I think this is flipped then right? If he flips scum you will TR Enter because you dont believe in bussing? if hes town you would think we are team so its both of us with a lean on me?

yea, is that not what i said before?

yea I missread the original question, sorry, Im at work so I have to skim this and reply in between work.

If I am scumreading Pvt and literally pushing him to the point of lynch, and thats what I want as well can we agree if Loopdan is town Pvt looks super scummy?

[Thespio]

I'm of the opinion that if loopdan flips scum pvt looks scummy, if loopdan flips town i still think it's you

Ok cool, I understand, so basicly you are looking at loopdan/pvt scum team, or a me/Enter scumteam?

[Thespio]

effectivly yes

So the way I see it, If he flips town im susp of Enter and Pvt. I would prefer a pvt lynch but it would put Enter as a scum lean for me. If hes scum I am less susp of Pvt and Enter and more so the players that have stayed stagnant.

Now do me a favor, I didnt start on loopdan, how do you feel about my ISO in regards to Loopdan, Enter, and Pvt?

[Thespio]

Now do me a favor, I didnt start on loopdan, how do you feel about my ISO in regards to Loopdan, Enter, and Pvt?

not entirely sure what you're asking could you rephrase a bit?

Whats your specific feelings about my progression D1? sorry, I work for the DOE and since we technically are closed im helping students still get aid and theres like 600 people waiting so im all over the place.

[Thespio]

"Less sure" is one way to put it, given that I don't believe #1 at all given how far out I'd have to go for that. I'm more concerned that you're a combination of too scummy to be scum and overly eager to sacrifice yourself, whish is a big reason why you're not lower on my list.

Do you feel the tunnel could be a scum tunnel?

[Thespio]

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

[Thespio]

@Magik, you wanna see what too scummy to be scum looks like? The post below.

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

I dont understand, do you think he is town tunneling you? You are still my pick for today I just dont want anything to stop this clash, i want to see it to its end so D2 regardless of what happens I know what you both think. I do believe one of you is scum, i understand he did basically tunnel you, he did it even when confronting me. You arent out of the fire yet. But your survivalism does seem town now that you are actually trying.

[Thespio]

@Magik, you wanna see what too scummy to be scum looks like? The post below.

UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.

Can you explain that a little bit more for us newbies?

He is saying if it seems to obvious you should rethink your read essentially.

[Thespio]

The arguing between Loop and Enter. Thought this was clear enough from context.

Just double checking. I think it's either Enter scum tunnelling to get a mislynch, TvT, or Enter is some form of deity

Did you just list every possible option XD, its either SvT, TvT, or TvS

[Thespio]

slow wagon buildups are very often scum, especially on day 1.

So your saying you think the people who have been slow to vote him are town for you and we are all hesitant because were not sure if he is scum? Loopdan flips his vote alot, are you saying that makes him scum?

[Thespio]

I said the way Loopdan flipped his vote made him look bad. Especially because he flipped his vote a lot and didn't push his reads at all.

Teaching Moment

For the newer players this is important btw, Scum often struggle because they cant hunt for scum because they are scum, so their reads usually are just surface deep. pushing them often leads to information that is inconsistent.

I agree with the concept, if he wasnt attacking your meta, and he was mine would you feel the same way?

[Thespio]

that is a very good point, and rather ammusing.
The order is what i think the mos likely case it:
Scum tunnel ~ 85%
TvT ~ 10%
Enter = god ~ 5%

Help me push him a little then. What feels most off about the tunnel/push?

[Thespio]

Wouldn't you WANT to flip Loopdan in that case so you can understand me? I'm afraid I'm not following.

Also it's Mewbie 1477. That was an actual tunnel. I tunneled Hanzo from day 1 into day 2 until he flipped scum from his lynch on day 2.

As I just said, I know one of you are scum, I'm leaning towards loopdan because it gives info on you an Pvt, however... We have a few days in D1 left, and there is always the posibility im wrong, so i want to see if we can test both of your reads, loopdans seems more reactive, and he nearly gave up so im not sure if it was a pity play as scum and then when he saw it wouldn't work he made a strong active push to try to live. Regardless discussions help town.

[Thespio]

I'm think there's a chance he is town-tunneling me, but I think there's a greater chance he's just scum. Enter has not shown equivocation or doubt or puzzlement about anything. That doesn't read as town.

What is you reaction to him differentiating a push form a tunnel?

[Thespio]

Enter says I called it a tunnel after only ten hours. Sure. He also had 17 mostly lengthy posts where he aggressively argued that I was scum during that time. And during that time he never once tried to engage me directly to determine my alignment. He came into the game with his mind already made up. I actually started off addressing his concerns in 143, 145, 160, 161, 162, 163, and 170. During that time he posted nine times while mis-repping what I'd said and lying about what I'd done (remember when he quoted my posts out of order to say I encouraged town to scumhunt and

then

I sheeped Skellen's vote. Yeah it was the other way around).

After I recognized he had no interest in actually sorting me, but had clearly already made up his mind, I post this:

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions, indicating you have zero interest in actually sorting my alignment. Like I said before, you are either confbiasing or scum. I'm not going to get sucked into your never-ending tunnel of misrepresentations and outright lies (see 161 for just one example).

If other players think Enter has some valid points and want to point those out to me I'll be glad to engage and answer as best I can. As far as I can tell Enter's case on me is that I didn't do enough to advance the game-state (which I already admitted before he showed up) and that I placed 6 (oops I mean 4) votes without posting huge walls of explanation.

After I'm done reading some of Enter's prior games I'll come back with (hopefully) a better stance on Badtown v Scum.

So yeah, that's the background on me first calling it a tunnel.

Ok so youre saying if it was a push there would have been actual questions and statements that he wanted a reply to?

@Enter, was there something specific you were hunting for?

[Thespio]

@Enter, was there something specific you were hunting for?

This is a bad question. You should read his ISO yourself and determine if he was hunting for anything.

I know I can find it but I dont see a specific thing he was looking for except to show you were scum, I would like to confirm if this was his only goal.

[Thespio]

Do you really think he's going to come on here and say "I was 100% sure Loopdan was scum and so I didn't have to ask him anything, just drive his wagon to his lynch"?

Because he isn't going to say that.

You can't sort players by

asking

them their intent behind their actions. You have to determine their intent

by their actions

. The exception would be when their actions are ambiguous and you think clarification is necessary to pin them down to something. But there was nothing ambiguous about Enter's play.

I disagree, I think scum reads from scum are very shallow, If he honestly thinks your scum if i push his motive and he cant explain thats a clear indicator for me, why did you wait so long to vote him?

[Thespio]

@loopdan also do you think ill take their work for it? the point is to attack the core of their reasoning to see its strength.

[Thespio]

Dear god, refresh and the wall of text appears, Enter I’m not proposing we lynch you rn, I want him to post more so if he’s scum we get more banter and possibly get a hint towards partner.

[Thespio]

I also have no clue, but the last post I was brought up was also before I had actually said anything of note and he's been too busy bickering with Loop since.

Well I think you are a kind person and are town.

[Thespio]

@Loopdan, this is what i was asking for!

Something that should be noted is that Loopdan is again asking for something he hasn't provided: a list of reads - something I've been asking from him since my 3rd? 4th? (something like that) post.

Ok Enter, can you post just a list in order of town to scum and how you are reading people?

[Thespio]

His banter is intentionally confusing and all over the place. He's wildly calling people scum and town. He still hasn't posted a full reads list, which is something I've been asking for since before he started calling me badtown and scum. I honestly think he's just scum flailing at this point. If he was town he would have put out a full reads list by now, but he won't because it knows it won't really change the lynch and it will help town a lot

Give it some time, also I like the walls of text, they beat loopdans tiny posts that seem antagonistic and beside the point.

VOTE: Loopdan I dont feel like this went were i thought it would. little to no development.

[Thespio]

Mod Notes

Cats have a reflective layer in their eyes, known as the tapetum lucidum, which magnifies incoming light allowing them to see up to 6 times better than humans can in low light.

My dad got us a pair of cats when i was 12 for christmas, he put them in a box and poked holes in the sides, when we woke up they had escaped and hid under our fridge. cats are cute but evil

[Thespio]

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Town

Skellen
Elements
Thespio
PvtUrist
MagikHorse
Munchmellow
Enter
Muh316

Scum

Updated:

Town

Skellen
Elements
Munchmellow
MagikHorse
Thespio
PvtUrist
Enter
Muh316

Scum

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

In other news Muh is scum and should be investigated at night.

^do you know a pr?

[Thespio]

Did you just softclaim a pr?

[Thespio]

Did you just softclaim a pr?

If my memory serves he's already gone on the record saying he was a VT at some point, or at least heavily insinuated such. Seems more like he's trying to tell any town investigatives to follow his lead and get Muh lynched.

Thats what i thought i was about to lose it, if he was softclaiming this far into a wagon after saying he was vt, talk about a poor play, but no i think we are fine.

[Thespio]

^do you know a pr?

No.

Did you just softclaim a pr?

No. And stop talking about who may or not be one.

I was gonna find you in IRL and give you a dirty look if you were claiming.

[Thespio]

@enter, ugh, you know what just occurred to me, the reason I dislike Pvt is the same as loopdan, loopdan has been caught up on the same person all game. how did i not notice that. excuse my mistake. there is no reason beyond policy.

[Thespio]

When I remember right, how did this become a 1v1 between Enter and Loopdan? By all I know it's still Loopdan vs Thespio or did I miss something?

Loopdan and I have never really been at each others throats. what are you talking about?

[Thespio]

I've only just realised we've still got up to 4 days left for day one. I thought we only had 1 and a half so it the loopdan lynch was almost inevitable, my bad

No but loopdan isnt developing, theres nothing new in his game since the meta read of Enter

[Thespio]

I'd like to point out how despite Enter's comment on avoiding this discussion, Elements and Thespio continue on their discussion of possible partners when Loopdan flips. Thespio, you also acknowledged Enter's point yet continued to ask questions. Why is that?

the only discussion i see as bad is that of PRs and of speculation on who is lynched based on specific actions. if we build a kill list, like what was being asked for, then we provide strait information about who is going to do what before N1. Bad.

[Thespio]

@Thespio - I see you just logged-in recently. Why are you avoiding this game?

It’s auto loges in on my phone. I was going to a movie and needed to check the time :p I’m turning in now. Kind of think it’s odd you’re being so survivalistic

[Thespio]

@Thespio - I see you just logged-in recently. Why are you avoiding this game?

Let's be frank Sir Enter, I'm as disinterested in this lynch as I can be. Perhaps it's the bond of brothers through similar trials, having gone through your brutal and biased tribulation together, perhaps I'm simply more willing to believe in the good he's shown than the bad while you do not, but either way you will not convince me to follow you with a case. I will always believe myself over you, and nothing you can ever do will change that, nor have you moved me even one hair closer to following you, town though you may be.

But what I do know is your tunnel case and the lashing out onto me as a result of disagreeing with you cannot be allowed to continue distracting and blockading the town like this, and thusly the only way I'm participating in this lynch is if I think we can legitimately get enough information about everyone else to justify it, hence my previous question whom Loopdan has now parroted back in a similar manner.

Either way I will act tomorrow so the remainder of the Town has a chance to purvey the countercase and form their own opinions on the matter. This lynch should not be my decision alone, but the decision of the town, and it would be hasty to act before most of them have had a chance to wipe the sleep from their eyes. If they believe me that he has enough town merit to spare him, then I hope you will move on from your tunnel and work with the Town in harmony. If they believe you, then I will reluctantly agree to off him should the town still bay for his blood and the circumstances are reasonable, though I will do so with great sorrow. Either way I weep for the troubles caused tonight, as Town clashes against perceived Town in a battle of egos, wit, and stubbornness that should never have been.

I’ll have questions about this in the morning.

[Thespio]

This day has all but ended, I will hammer Loop unless someone obliterated this offer in the next few hours

Please wait for my reply to the above, remember that openly communicating is beneficial to town!

[Thespio]

PvtUrist is being replaced and the day should not end until a replacement has an opportunity to read and post thoughts.

Depending on how long it takes to get a replacement confirmed, our mod might even extend the deadline

@Mod, due to the replacement can we vote to extend the day a little?

[Thespio]

Writing my post now, im at work so give it a while

[Thespio]

@Muh
@Skellen
@Thespio

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

There's so much noise (much of it of my own making) in this game and I think town needs your clear statements on why you support my lynch so they can sort you day2.

Thank you.

I think that your early game was/is flighty, you dont really contribute (either due to time or a lack of effort) and when you get to L-2 you are basically done with the game, in newbie games with stricter rules it is common for experienced players to get bored playing scum and drop out. This to me is the first red flag, the second is that you recognize that what is going on right now hurts town, the clash between you and enter, but you recognize that you have to play to win, imo this is a scum slip because town isnt winning by only focusing on you two (you acknowledged this) and yet you still push it. The final red flag is this question, I already stated why i was flipping onto you, This seems to distract from the actual lynch almost like an effort to dissuade us, paired with you asking for extra time (even if it helps town) it seems LAME as well as opportunistic.

Thats why I'm keeping my vote, if i saw you push everyone i might have stayed off you when i hesitated earlier. I was hoping that my initial townie read was good but I cant get myself back to that mindset.

@Horse

hence my previous question whom Loopdan has now parroted back in a similar manner.

Why dont you find this off? someone who has played all spectrum in the same 4 day span from pity to a hard push, no parroting you for more time. Why is this ok for you?


PEDIT:
Didnt miss it loop just writing it. I havent removed my vote because I was midpost, I literally had to delete it because someone did it while i was writing this.

[Thespio]

I see there is a lot to read since I was here last (kids got sick and needed my attention).
Will post my thoughts in an hour or two.

Hope they are doing ok, same problem yesterday with my wife, family and mafia do not mix :p

[Thespio]

@Muh
@Skellen
@Thespio

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

There's so much noise (much of it of my own making) in this game and I think town needs your clear statements on why you support my lynch so they can sort you day2.

Thank you.

@Skellen - you missed this

I am still at work and can only post more in a few hours but since Elements announced his hammer in a few hours I will do the unvote.

You missed this.

[Thespio]

You missed this.

I asked for "a couple sentences or bullet points" not an Enteresque novella.

You still missed it, he said he cant post alot now but will get to it, hes at work. you did the same with me, you are really focused on one point and i feel like you are ignoring the game.

[Thespio]

Often experienced players as scum will lurk and play with low activity. Is that what you mean? If so, is that how you see my play this game?

To my experience there is lurking however its not due to some strat its due to their partners activity and they end up losing interest in the game, you looked at my meta you can tell thats the majority of what ive seen. so you giving up pings my scumdar in these newbie games.

[Thespio]

Dude... You really think this is what giving up looks like? How many posts have I made since being put at L-2? I have done more questioning and pushing than anybody else since that point.

Yes, I was super frustrated that you guys all fell for Enter's dumb tunnel on me. It felt like nobody was even reading the game and I felt helpless at that point to do anything to avoid a lynch.

And I still am helpless to avoid the lynch, but here I am still trying to help win the game by getting all of you to explain your reason for voting me. You think that comes from scum? It's been clear I'm the lynch for a loooong time so why am I still here? Answer that and you'll realize my alignment is obvious.

Because you think we will buy your shinanigans and lynch Muh, he is a null lean for me but based on how im reading you im guessing hes town, he flips, then we waste D2 killing and no new scum hunting can happen until D3. thats why. I think you are trying to be a good IC and sticking around even though you are a sitting duck hoping you can slip out of it.

[Thespio]

So your case is:
1) Early game was flighty then he was done with the game when he for to L-2.
2) I'm focused on a 1v1 against Enter and this is detrimental to town
3) I asked you to concisely state your case on me but you've already stated your case so I'm just trying to distract from my lynch.

If this is incorrect please clarify

why are you trying to simplify my post? all of what i said is important.

[Thespio]

Mod Notes

I am traveling without my laptop through Sunday, and up in the air all day today, so I won't be able to do a VC for a little while.

Between this and the search for a replacement, I will extend the day by 24 hours if a replacement is found with more than 48 hours remaining. Otherwise, the game will last 48 hours after the replacement player joins.

#bestmod

[Thespio]

@Thespio Why would it be suspicious? Information is pro-town. Buying time for information is in no way reason for me to suspect alterior motives.

Why was he at the point of just abandoning the game if he is town and time is pro town? what perk does that give town?

[Thespio]

I made no sense, I mean:

He literally was at the point of just leaving the game until his lynch
How does that help town?

[Thespio]

Thespio - If I was trying to survive at all costs I would have pushed to lynch you, since you are already at L-2.

Am I? I have a vote from a player from RVS, and elements who has been clear about where he is going, and munchmellow who was on me from Post 140 alot has happened.

[Thespio]

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

[Thespio]

UNVOTE:

[Thespio]

@Horse, backup, are you seeing elements post too?? he literally recognizes someone as town and is like 'eh. killem'

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

[Thespio]

@loop, you dingus, you aside, how do you feel about elements vote?

[Thespio]

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

@Munch, LOOK AT THIS
what kind of impact do you draw from this?

[Thespio]

had Elements for a longer time on my scum list, however lower than Pvt. But if this could turn out to be a lynch option which has a chance to go through I might consider switching to him. I still want to wait for the Pvt replacement though and see how it is to deal with a two personalities slot, ugh.

I am game for waiting, im just not sure how he dropped that and walked away. Keep an eye on it, he has posted so little its playing that lurking border.

[Thespio]

I can respect your wishes to wait for the Urist replacement. That's fine.

I'm not entirely sure I recall the case on Urist all that well though. Anyone have a refresher for that? I'm a bit busy staffing ye olde TTT server to look it up right now.

Set up an RP server and Ill join you.

Pvt essentially tunnelled me, didnt ever post reads but because this game was built of people pre new year i think he might have just been less active due to IRL. Still sketchy he focused me and never left, but what can you do?

[Thespio]

In post 594, Loopdan wrote:
Regarding directing PRs... it is not anti-town for someone who is about to flip to give advice on night actions. It's just another way to make my thoughts known. And yes the PR(s) will make their own decisions but I know that when I'm a PR and a townie flips I go back to reread their posts when making my night action choice. For example, let's say there is a doc in the game who isn't sure who to protect between their two top townreads. How can they decide? Well a townie just flipped and he said Magik was his top TR. So it can be helpful.


Yeah and scum will know too making it null.

Right but it puts the skum into WIFOM

[Thespio]

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "i think loopdan is town, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

My dude i think you owe us your reads, you have given me the biggest heart attack today, if you are skum you have to be kicking yourself, because even with your revisions it means the same thing.

You see town, you kill town. If you think hes town look a step ahead, i interacted with you first, i didnt push to lynch you without looking beyond you.

[Thespio]

How does this scenario work? I mean I get that Thespio is shady

Like cool shady or like bad shady?

[Thespio]

didnt respond in time, I'm going cool. Personally Im not sure why a few of you think I am sketchy but it doesnt really matter, with this slip from elements we should be pushing him hard, im re reading loopdan now that he is defending himself, ill post later about it.

[Thespio]

I would hammer a townread at deadline to avoid no lynch (not a strong townread). But to rush hammering a townread... I do find it suspicious.

At this point i feel like this day is currently being detrimental to town

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "i think loopdan is town, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

This is not really an explanation at all. You just repeated what you already said.

You were TRing me and SRing Enter. Then with 3 days left and a possible time extension due to a replacement player coming in, and the game finally moving on from the unproductive Loopdan v Enter escapades, you

then

want to lynch your TR because "At this point i feel like this day is currently being detrimental to town" and your TR's lynch "will tell us the most information."

You need to explain two things: Why is the current game-state detrimental to town? Why will my lynch tell us the most information?

VOTE: Elements

Im about midway through your Iso, leaning scum, HOWEVER at this point where im hitting more recent event

Code: Select all

concidering

the situation you were in im leaning more null. halfway done.

[Thespio]

Didnt mean to do the code thing but whatever

[Thespio]

Right now for me, there are two scenarios:
1. Thespio is scum with Elements/Muh/pvt

One last thing for today:

How does this scenario work? I mean I get that Thespio is shady, but two of these three tried to lynch him. While he has tried and is actually trying to lynch exactly those two.

Well, I obviously didn't think it through.
Where I was coming from is - based on my gut feeling and last few pages of loopdans answers, let's say he's town. And the way Enter went after him, I think he's town too. Than Magik and Skellen are really townie. So there is Thespio and the other 3left. I like a lot of Thespio's posts. But if I am being slightly paranoid, I could see a lot of his posts come from scum agenda. What bothered me was how wagon on Loopdan formed and how Thespio had a change of heart back then.
I can still see my No.1 scenario working with Muh and maybe even with PVT. But I admit that scenario No.2 is more likely (and it would give us 2scum out of 3ppl). That's why I unvoted Thespio and would like to lynch one of those 3. Lynching PVT doesn't sound good because he is gone for a long time now and we should wait for his replacement (which is probably gonna be hard to find with 25pages of D1). So that leaves Muh and Elements - neither of them gives me very townie feelings.

I think you might be playing WIFOM with yourself and I don’t think it’s healthy, if you are paranoid ask me questions, earlier when loop sujjesged you had to infur motives, he was right in most cases. Because I could say the same applies to horse under your reasoning. He is just blending, building townie points because his scum budy is pvt and he can’t act. When you don’t engage but try to get into details you just end up hurting yourself. (Also leaning town on horse based on their willingness to scum hunt)


Hey RCE welcome, there’s a cooler of drinks in the back, Loopdan has smash brothers hooked up, and I’m making toast. Make yourself at home.

[Thespio]

The typos^ sorry on a phone.

[Thespio]

You do realize PtvUrist is the person you've replaced, right? This is your own slot!

Should I feel good that one of my top lynches even the replacement thinks is scummy? Also I like rce as a person but IMO alot has to be done before I trust that slot.

[Thespio]

elements flips scum:
everyone currently on his wagon looks like town/less like scum

Elements flips town
no reads change

I think this is wrong, heres what I see:
elements flips scum:
everyone currently on his wagon looks like town/less like scum

Elements flips town
It is almost certainly Loopdan and ive missed something critical.

Enter you didnt actually read elements post and think he must be town right? that looks scummy to you right? am i missing some key element of this game?

[Thespio]

s that a pun?

im currently writing a big post on my reads throughout the game so that's where i am

Looking forward to it, and I didnt catch the pun until it was too late

[Thespio]

btw using

Code: Select all

[post=1]Post 1[/post]

will link to a post

[Thespio]

This is wrong. He posted reads twice in the first six pages, which is more than can be said for loopdan. Stop making shit up.

He only posted about me, there was no lean on anyone else, sure its great he townie read everyone else for whatever reason, but ever single post he made was made to attack me in some way, except the one that was like "woa theres alot to catch up on." Calm your shit, im not trying to lynch him, im pushing elements for posting he thinks loop is town and wants him dead anyways, he has had little to no activity, and now he is lynching townreads because reasons. Even if he thinks he will learn something, if he already town reads him he should be playing like he flipped town not trying to kill him to see if he was right, you and i have hashed it out, im still susp of loopdan, but he didnt ever post anything like this.

[Thespio]

No, you shouldn't lynch anyone but Loopdan, because if Loopdan flips scum, it pretty much proves elements is town at this point and he just made a scummy post.

I feel like there is scum between them, as well as scum between Loop and Pvt. im going to relook at elements.

[Thespio]

No, you shouldn't lynch anyone but Loopdan, because if Loopdan flips scum, it pretty much proves elements is town at this point and he just made a scummy post.

I feel like there is scum between them, as well as scum between Loop and Pvt. im going to relook at elements.

It's almost like flipping Loopdan helps clear up Pvt and Elements.

Right, well im going to be honest though, loopdan flips town and I'm going to be angry with you. I dont want that so I will consider him as I look at elements.

[Thespio]

@horse, i think im being reasonable? am I crazy or should I just be ignoring everything and voting loopdan

[Thespio]

I think you might be playing WIFOM with yourself and I don’t think it’s healthy

Yes, I probably am and its frustrating. That's also a reason why I want to let this go for now...

1. He won't flip town.

Wow, I kind of admire how sure you are about yourself. Do you really have no doubt and deny all possibility that he could just be town?

Read through his ISO and think to yourself: "Do I really want someone to be a townie if this is their contribution?"

Because I guarantee you my answer to that is a solid "No." Part of it is certainty, yes, but the other part is that I don't ever want to be a part of a game where someone can be this counter-productive with a WINCON that says they should be working with me. I get the feeling you haven't ISO'd him yourself, and I strongly encourage you to do so - and look at what he's actually saying/thinking, look for an actual town-motivated thought process. There is nothing there.

If we dont lynch him are you going to rage quit, or are you pushing it so hard because you think he will kill you n1?

[Thespio]

there's no reason why we can't pressure Elements while the timer runs down so we have as much information on their slot as possible before nightfall.

I CANNOT AGREE MORE

[Thespio]

Even despite that, there's no reason why we can't pressure Elements while the timer runs down so we have as much information on their slot as possible before nightfall.

I'm currently on Thespio, then it's Enter, Loop and some other stuff at the end, i'll try and finish it before i sleep but no promises

Thanks m8 sorry about the time difference!

[Thespio]

I blame nobody for time differentials.

I take credit, I made it obviously. I think were wasting time rn, we should be pushing more people, horse woh do you susp next?

[Thespio]

who^

[Thespio]

When the mod keeps stealing the page tops...

[Thespio]

Im not on there.

[Thespio]

Elements, you can pause, can you just tell me what you gain from a loopdan lynch, i see that it clears a few people up, but just say who you will find town/scum if he is scum.

[Thespio]

Im not on there.

What do you mean by this? Are there parts you disagree with? Do you not understand it?

No, he just said he was working on a read for me and im not on the list, I read it after this post

[Thespio]

Elements, you can pause, can you just tell me what you gain from a loopdan lynch, i see that it clears a few people up, but just say who you will find town/scum if he is scum.

He's already said I'm a townlean should Loop flip Town and scummy if Loop flips scum, which is all well and fair. Still, more would be appreciative.

Yeah, I dont think lynching someone you read as town to prove someone else they associate with is town is a good idea.

[Thespio]

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

Not really, a self sacrifice, as i explained when i offered it, does alot more then give information. It also helps remove townies that distract from the goal, which at that point I was. Re read my explinations. His is strait up calling someone town, then saying lets kill them. If he explained it beyond just repeating it MAYBE I would buy it, but he isnt, so im not.

[Thespio]

I'll post everyone except Thespio, Loop and enter now so timezone people can look at stuff. Ill finish the big three off tomorrow and post again then

Why am I part of the big 3? Post count?

Go to sleep Elements, ttyl.

@ALL I will be Judging a LOC Debate Tournament tomorrow so I will be inactive, sorry ahead of time! Ill peak here every hour or so though.

@MOD I will be VLA for tomorrow.

[Thespio]

muh why are you nitpicking arguements, can you give us something real, a read you actually have?

[Thespio]

Once again this town fails to see the other side of the coin, which is proving itself to be a pattern that just keeps repeating itself this game.

Mean

How do you feel about elements reads?

[Thespio]

Also does that mean you TR him?^

[Thespio]

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

I don't see it as a scum slip. It just looks like you're reaching too hard on that one.

I think that town doesn't have to go there to be townie, so I kind of see scum-agenda in this. And what does that even mean - that he would selfhammer if he would be L-1 on deadline and no one else to hammer?

I too find the sacrificial hero of the town story pretty annoying. But in my experience it's usually a town player that says it because if scum would say this and not follow through, that would be a clear scum-tell.

@Thespio, why haven't you removed your vote on MDB? That vote/pressure is not going anywhere.

Whenever a player replaces in, it's always bad news for scum because that player can approach the game from a different perspective than the current players. I think that we didn't really take a look at Loopdan because he was driving the game in the beginning. But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.
VOTE: Loopdan

So before this vote Muh's last bit of content regarding Loop was the "double bussing" comment in response to Thespio calling Skellen/Loop TvT.

The bad news for scum line seems informed which is what made me think muh/Loop is still possible but not probable I guess looking at the current game state.

It's an opportunistic vote and from a scum perspective it's well timed. It's early in Enter vs Loop and isn't heated yet. But it only took 1 post to completely flip how the game shod be viewed in Muh's mind?

Now that I think about it that's more of a reason for this to just be Town!Enter. I believe there is 1 between Loop and Muh. Loop / Enter goes beyond scum theater and rarely ever would they be together. So if Muh is the scum here he's spewing Enter town with the pocket attempt (looks like it worked at any rate).

I like this, how do you read elements initial and updated post on loop?

[Thespio]

Ok, I would like permission from everyone to hammer, Ill give it a few hours and if no one has any objection i will.

[Thespio]

@magic, I think we need to break down the whole wagon, I do believe it may be muh so i have no objection to applying pressure here, I still think Enter is town. The NK is basically nothing, so lets look at the day kill. Im rereading loops interactions with others.

[Thespio]

Yeah maybe we don't let Enter lead the Lynch today.

VOTE: MunchMellow

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I'm actually really surprised no one else is questioning their read on Enter after those flips. I'm not sure what that means yet but I'll think on it a bit more.

It could be slots hoping to avoid confrontation which is NAI for everyone else and slightly +town for Enter but I'm not sure. Remind me to gather my thoughts on Enter avoidance after my munch case.

PoE != confscum

Gonna let you know we ARENT going to have you tunnel one guy, not a lot from rce so I’m fine with this but your wagon on Loopdan cannot repeat because you get stubborn on your first read. Just an fyi, can you post an updated list of reads now that loop flipped green?

[Thespio]

Gonna let you know we ARENT going to have you tunnel one guy, not a lot from rce so I’m fine with this but your wagon on Loopdan cannot repeat because you get stubborn on your first read. Just an fyi, can you post an updated list of reads now that loop flipped green?

You and Magik are funny like this, acting like you have any control whatsoever about how I proceed with the gameday or like I have any intention of going through another loopdan situation again. Not to be an ass, but I don't care if I have your approval for anything I do. I'd really like to see more involvement from you, too. Pretty much anything past surface level reads and bad implementation of game theory/ generally too scummy to be scum behavior.

Loopdan should have been lynched on page 12, but we let him live, he continued to scum up the game thread and now we have 15+ pages of borderline spam and a dead PR. Acting like what happened with dan is bound to happen again / complaining about my behavior yesterday isn't a good direction to head in for day start.

Anyways, enough of that. Yeah I can get a reads list together, and also that's not how you use "fyi."

I’m asking you as a townie that you as someone who I think is a townie act less antitown. That’s it, we aren’t acting weird, you were just wrong and if you mega tunnel someone today it will likely hurt town again.

[Thespio]

I’m asking you as a townie that you as someone who I think is a townie act less antitown. That’s it, we aren’t acting weird, you were just wrong and if you mega tunnel someone today it will likely hurt town again.

That's fair. You're right, I'll try to figure out what I got so vehemently wrong and fix it in the future.

I disagree that not tunneling people is always an answer, sometimes it's good. I want to say it was confbias, but sometimes scum is caught but then they manage to look town afterwards. Whatever, we're getting into mafia theory now.

I’m fine leaving it as is, I feel like your adept enough to play beyond tunneling which is why I just want us to rebuild and continue, 2/3 of my initial reads were wrong. It’s time to admit defeat and start over.

[Thespio]

Rn the person i think we ought to push the most is Munch, no one thinks its odd theyve been able to lurk in the background all game.

[Thespio]

Ok I am finishing up my reread, ill write more but heres a quick where Im at

Town>Horse/Enter/Skellen>muh/RCE>Munchmellow>SKUM

[Thespio]

it a common thing that scum usually tends to quickhammer someone in a L-1 situation? Therefore it exculpates Magik that he didn't hammer Loop, I can follow that line of thinking. But Munch is scum because she was the only one left over outside the wagon and didn't hammer?

Just pausing to answer this, Yes and no. Scum obviously want a misslynch or no lynch though so strategy for scum usually is a quick hammer to end a day and take a ML or a push towards a lynch

[Thespio]

Honestly I find it strange to say that scum usually hammers at L-1. Certain specific players might (example: Not_Mafia), yeah sure, but I find it hard to believe that scum would want to put themselves under the gun unless they thought they could get away with it. In the end it's all about how much they're showing about their true colors, unless it's for the win somehow.

Overall the thing that I'm getting out of this is that his townread on Loop might be manufactured so that he could slip under the radar and have an excuse to stay off the wagon in case people started looking at the wagon. I'm gonna have to look into his reasoning for that townread and see what works there, but just "not hammering when he could have" doesn't cut it for me if that's your argument here.

I agree to some degree, scum may also want to bait people onto a position so they dont have to hammer, but they usually are involved in postponing a game without extending it and/or ending days early

PEDIT:
I think munch is susp, i think enter is leaning against people who didnt wagon with him, i want his read on munch, an indepth read like what he is doing with RCA

[Thespio]

Thespio had reasons stated by his voters yet seemingly he wasn't interested enough to challenge only one of these three. The same with Pvt and Elements. He brings those up but ultimately it never lead anywhere. Just look like some alibi statements to me.

I did respond to the people who voted for me, their major concern was that i was ok dying.

[Thespio]

Either I phrased it awkwardly or you got it wrong. I did't meant you, I meant muh.

Ah I see. Yeah, he kind of just exists in this game, he isnt a negative or positive influence, hes just here, avoiding the game. which to me is SUPER scummy, because no information is anti-town

[Thespio]

So, RCE, first known as Pvt:
jumped on Thespio's joke way to strong in110 and was still pushing it in 132. It seemed out of nowhere. Elements said Pvt acts the same as he did in their previous game, where he was scum, but his readlists and style simed similar to my last game with Pvt (town), so this is NAI, specially with Pvt replacing.
Let's just say Pvt's lurky Thespio push seemed scummy.

RCE had a good start, but didn' really pick sides. His vote stayed Pvt's RVS vote, which I do find wierd.

I would prefer a lynch on muh personally

Why not voting him then?

There is a thing about stating one of Loop/muh is deffinetelly scum. And later one of me/elements is scum. This could be a nice way setting mislynches.
His wagon theory is ok, but is still just assumptions and PoE. My vote staying on Thespio, while I scumread him and not switching to Loopdan, who I didn't scumread, shouldn't be the base for your case. It also doesn't go with your previous statement, that scum would just go with Enter's accusations (which I agree with and is part of a reason I didn't want to vote Loop - this wagon forming smelled fishy).
Other than that, I don't have much to say about RCE's play. He explains his thoughts, thinks, asks questions. Way better impression than Pvt. But Pvt was around for quite some time and I don't want to overlook that part of the same slot.

Possible partners - Magik (muh's case 1025) there is nothing in their interaction, that would make this impossible
Thespio - PVT's start makes this unlikely
Muh - unlikely as stated in my "Muh post".

Weren’t you part of my wagon?
Why do you think loops wagon felt wrong? Why didn’t you actively push against it? Pvt/RCE wasn’t involved how do you feel about the people who lynched loop?

[Thespio]

So, RCE, first known as Pvt:
jumped on Thespio's joke way to strong in110 and was still pushing it in 132. It seemed out of nowhere. Elements said Pvt acts the same as he did in their previous game, where he was scum, but his readlists and style simed similar to my last game with Pvt (town), so this is NAI, specially with Pvt replacing.
Let's just say Pvt's lurky Thespio push seemed scummy.

RCE had a good start, but didn' really pick sides. His vote stayed Pvt's RVS vote, which I do find wierd.

I would prefer a lynch on muh personally

Why not voting him then?

There is a thing about stating one of Loop/muh is deffinetelly scum. And later one of me/elements is scum. This could be a nice way setting mislynches.
His wagon theory is ok, but is still just assumptions and PoE. My vote staying on Thespio, while I scumread him and not switching to Loopdan, who I didn't scumread, shouldn't be the base for your case. It also doesn't go with your previous statement, that scum would just go with Enter's accusations (which I agree with and is part of a reason I didn't want to vote Loop - this wagon forming smelled fishy).
Other than that, I don't have much to say about RCE's play. He explains his thoughts, thinks, asks questions. Way better impression than Pvt. But Pvt was around for quite some time and I don't want to overlook that part of the same slot.

Possible partners - Magik (muh's case 1025) there is nothing in their interaction, that would make this impossible
Thespio - PVT's start makes this unlikely
Muh - unlikely as stated in my "Muh post".

Enter is set town for you?

[Thespio]

Actually, you know what?

I like this better.

VOTE: Thespio

Care to explain? is it that I dont follow your lead so you want me dead? or do you genuinely have some issue with me?

[Thespio]

Actually, you know what?

I like this better.

VOTE: Thespio

Care to explain? is it that I dont follow your lead so you want me dead? or do you genuinely have some issue with me?

Of all the players in this game, you legitimately feel the weirdest to me right now.

Right so for loopdan you had 'condemning evidence' for me your gut is guiding you? Im getting ready to my reads with a little more content, maybe that will help/hurt your opinion of me. Honestly rereading loopdans interactions you read kind of scummy, I saw your push as town, but that flip hurt you in my mind, your attitude was cocky and you werent willing to look at anyone else, then we come into D2 and you are upset i ask you for more reads and tell you not to tunnel.

[Thespio]

also i know you are writing a wall of txt right now, im at work, try to keep it to the point.

[Thespio]

please^

[Thespio]

Can everyone tell me one thing Enter has done, one post, one anything, that makes him a town read?

[Thespio]

"we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I did agree but you never progressed beyond that, you didnt push anyone else, when we have 4 active players (you, me, loopdan, and Horse) its hard to actually get accurate reads on anyone. Also the fact you see RCE as scum and me as scum confirms to me that you only scumread people who dont agree with you. You attacked Horse for the same thing, notice your reads, you put him at the bottom. I think everyone ought to seriously look at the fact you hard tunneled a townie yesterday and now you are trying to put shade on anyone who resisted or didnt vote your way. Its not missrepping when you literally post it

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

Oh dang there it is. You putting the people who didnt shift. Beyond that your reason for lynching me is that im omgusing, except im not, ive not voted you im reading your iso. i can summarize it:

Tunnels Loopdan
interacts with me (still tunnelling loopdan)
Tunnels Loopdan
Attacks Horse (still tunnelling loopdan)
Lynches Loopdan
Loopdan flips green
Puts everyone who was off loopdan or was hesitant to vote loop on their scum list.


I just want to know why you think scum werent on your wagon, and im not TR RCE you are just the most obvscum right now, FOS on Enter.

[Thespio]

1. That's not true. Munch disagreed with everything I said yesterday, and you actually agreed with me for the first part.
2. It is misrepping me, show me where I posted that I was upset that you told me not to tunnel/asked me for more reads. Show me how I got upset about that. Cuz I guarantee this is not me being upset about reads:

You and Magik are funny like this, acting like you have any control whatsoever about how I proceed with the gameday or like I have any intention of going through another loopdan situation again. Not to be an ass, but I don't care if I have your approval for anything I do. I'd really like to see more involvement from you, too. Pretty much anything past surface level reads and bad implementation of game theory/ generally too scummy to be scum behavior.

It's not even me being upset about you thinking tunnels are dumb. It's me being upset about you saying "you aren't gonna do this."

And quit with the FOS crap. Put your vote on me and quit sitting on the fence. And again, that's not how my reads worked, you're assuming a position for me and then attacking that instead of responding to what I'm actually saying.

This is another reason you're scummy, you're going to try and get me all riled up by responding w/ OMGUS, and when that doesn't work (again) you're going to be like "this is TvT" (again) and then assume everyone will townread you.

I can case you later but you've done a load of scummy stuff this game.

1. Munch agreed with you and hes near the top of your town list. Point made.
2. Any time you have to say "Not to be an Ass" its you being an ass. Unless you are naturally an ass (which I interacted with you and thought you werent) it tends to be because of emotional turmoil.


2.5 IM NOT VOTING YOU BECAUSE I WANT TO LOOK AT MUNCH AND RCE. You getting on me seemed off though which is the purpose of my post, you arent my first or second pick, but the guys i want arent engaging with me or in munches case interacting with anyone because they are opportunistically posting.

Thats where I am at.

[Thespio]

I'm still disinclined to believe that scum!Enter would do such a massive deathtunnel and draw so much attention to himself Day 1 knowing that Loop would flip town. That doesn't really make his play good, since it definitely hasn't been most of the game, but his motivations aren't reading sour to me as much as overly eager to case people instead of thinking everything through.

This was my initial thought, but the fact he lynched based on his own sense of logic D1 and now is fishing for wagons D2 to me seems utterly susp. Also why would he defend munch? is it not normal to say you made a mistake and look at the people who did too (intentionally or not?) The fact his wagon is all town but they lynched a townie is super sketchy to me.

[Thespio]

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

Hmm, I must have misread him, regardless your bottom 3 are all people who weren't with you, and you were wrong, why are all the people on your wagon town?

2. Dude im not hiding behind anything, cool you think its susp i didn't want to hammer someone that evolved. I agreed he looked scummy until he got into it with you, as soon as he did i felt he was town, elements who hid all game, while actively watching the game. He looked scum, and when i was on V/LA he began posting. I didn't even see his PR claim until D2 because it ended before i could review what happened. More importantly, blaming the people who picked him up as susp on d1 is stupid, If anything it puts us as town. Loop flipped town, we read him as town at the end of the day, so we looked at the next susp player. Anyone who votes someone they think is town with a ton of time remaining is acting against town. If I kept my vote there I would have seen myself as scum.


PEDIT, i read your whole post you dummy.

1) Someone who lurks, shows up to post, calls someone town and votes them. These are all scum attributes. Im not saying the number of town you push makes you bad, the number of town you kill makes you bad. I didnt get on elements because i suspected a potential power role to post scummy things. And like I said above in this post, I was on V/LA when he came out.

2)Muh echoed you, hard, look at your own ISO. Make sure you arent reading people because they agree with you or you will get pocketed. which is what i think is going to happen in this game, today you will push me/horse, skum will wagon with you Then tomorrow they will push the other with you. then we all lose because you couldnt criticize people who agree with you.

[Thespio]

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements did:

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

This was his post after voting loopdan in post 163

I agree that you just being on the wagon doesnt make you scum, i do think like i said that the majority of your scum (as you pointed out there was 1 outlier) are all the people who didnt want to kill town. Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum, you have a loud voice, your posts are walls, scum imo would want you pocketed, or want you to think they were in your pocket. seriously do the math, 2 of the 7 of us are bad, so only 5 town, scum would have spent most of yesterday preparing to ML today. so loopdans ML is where we should start, that makes horse town (admittedly this makes my munch read wrong) Munch town, im obv town. RCE is still in deep shit from their predecessor and they didnt vote to save town they just didnt vote at all.

[Thespio]

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

So if i said "Enter I think you are town" and voted you, that would make you tr me?

[Thespio]

Ultimately elements was a mistake, but his string of posts was the most scum filled thing i had seen all game, loops activity made me see them as town, prior when they were avoiding confrontation i saw your point. So when i see yesterday, with the 5 of you on loop, 2 of those 5 ruled out (horse because he was on elements for legit reasons, and elements being dead, it leaves the remaining 3 as susp.

WTF are you misrepping here?

I didnt hammer because i wasnt online, when i posted intent i didnt get back on until he was dead. Im running theories here, your wagon contained scum. PERIOD. you are now in my bottom two because i miss read munch. so you are my first suspect.

and yes, i know he didnt in the same post, but he called him town, voted him, then called him town again. can you literally stop tunnelling and objectively evaluate your wagon? or is that to hard, at this point ignoring you progresses this game more then interacting with you. you arent building you are muddying the game.

[Thespio]

You cant take any pressure, you get all flustered, feel like you are being misrepped which you arent. shitpost with stuff like this:

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

which isnt even anything to do with my post.

M8 chill, im being objective, i didnt tunnel someone into oblivion, and even while questioning you notice i still have someone i suspect more. Ill grant you it might have been a mistake, but you still miss the mark everywhere else.

[Thespio]

There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.

dude you hard core were fishing for wagons, you popped your vote down, saw someone vote me, and voted me because reasons. XD you are so anti town that if you arent scum you should re-evaluate your play style.