Team Mafia 2020: Open Setup - Game Over

[Amrun]

I just now got my role PM because I’m a last minute replacement and I have no idea what is going on and I’m super tired. I’ll catch up tomorrow.

[Amrun]

Holy fuckballs, Titus is town, and right.

Someone please tell me why we shouldn’t mass claim everything?

Massclaiming leaves us with dr vs mafia roleblocker, and phone operator.

That’s a 50% chance of lynching right and leaving us with a town confirm. I feel like that’s pretty good.

[Amrun]

Massclaiming leaves us with dr vs mafia roleblocker, and phone operator.

What?

There isn't even a mafia roleblocker in this setup.

Massclaiming leaves the doctor outed and provides no further benefit.

Although I do think that, between them knowing their neighbors aren't doctor and the rolecop and people accidentally (or intentionally) giving away information, they'll know who the doctor is by D3 at the latest. So maybe we should mass neighbor claim on like D2.

Hahhahahahaha I meant rolecop but I missed that the mafia rolecop is a neighbor too, so disregard entirely. I never read this set up ahead of time because I didn’t expect to be in team mafia at all.


Titus is still town though.

[Amrun]

I am neighbors with Hectic. We all should claim since scum scum hoods are impossible.

Math's thoughts Nancy is town or scum with Elsa. Oka is lock!town. He's only read through page 1 though.

I'm not sure what to think on the strength of his reads.

Math... Hasn't commented in this game yet, but you claimed partners with Hectic.

The fuck?

Why wasn’t this accompanied by a vote if you thought it was a scum slip?

[Amrun]

Rereading the setup I realized something interesting. I guess I didn't pay too much attention, but since scum have a rolecop, and can automatically eliminate 3 people from being the doctor since they're neighbors with them, the Doctor has a way higher then normal chance of getting shot.

I’m conflicted about this post.

It reads very genuine, but i feel like this is a scum minded way of thinking about the set up.



Also, everyone addressing my post about claiming (pops, bob, whomever else) please don’t address it without addressing the immediate redaction. I don’t think we should mass claim at this juncture, though I’m not overly opposed to it either. My original thing was based on misreading a key aspect of the set up, and was immediately corrected.

[Amrun]

Bob:

Massclaiming leaves us with dr vs mafia roleblocker, and phone operator.

What?

There isn't even a mafia roleblocker in this setup.

Massclaiming leaves the doctor outed and provides no further benefit.

Although I do think that, between them knowing their neighbors aren't doctor and the rolecop and people accidentally (or intentionally) giving away information, they'll know who the doctor is by D3 at the latest. So maybe we should mass neighbor claim on like D2.

Hahhahahahaha I meant rolecop but I missed that the mafia rolecop is a neighbor too, so disregard entirely. I never read this set up ahead of time because I didn’t expect to be in team mafia at all.


Titus is still town though.

[Amrun]

Rereading the setup I realized something interesting. I guess I didn't pay too much attention, but since scum have a rolecop, and can automatically eliminate 3 people from being the doctor since they're neighbors with them, the Doctor has a way higher then normal chance of getting shot.

I know we were talking about scumslips and townslips and elsa earlier. This would qualify as a potential scumslip imo.

I already noted that I think this post could come from a scum mindset, but how is it a scumslip?

[Amrun]

That isnt a clear redaction. It 3 words placed in middle of sentance. When quoting another persons post.


You were best of quoting your original offending posts with disregard entirely.

Otherwise no one but smart would notice

That is why I was pointing it out to those talking about it.

But I would assume people would read it, since it was approximately two posts later. It wasn’t spread out at all.

[Amrun]

Bob, why argue about that anyway? Seems pretty semantic-y. Got any reads or just set up talk?

[Amrun]

Rereading the setup I realized something interesting. I guess I didn't pay too much attention, but since scum have a rolecop, and can automatically eliminate 3 people from being the doctor since they're neighbors with them, the Doctor has a way higher then normal chance of getting shot.

I know we were talking about scumslips and townslips and elsa earlier. This would qualify as a potential scumslip imo.

I already noted that I think this post could come from a scum mindset, but how is it a scumslip?

I don’t understand why Elsa’s post is scummy at all. I mean that does make sense doesn’t it? Scum do know obviously that at least two town can’t be doc and rolecop can confirm another player, right?

Yeah but that’s not at all what I was thinking about when it came to the setup. Were you?

[Amrun]

Auro doesn’t like Krazy’s opening.

Oh nice, that should confirm me as town then :3

He also said in Excalibur that you don’t joke as scum. I’m still the most suspicious of DDL/Hectic but if Titus thinks he’s scum, I’ll probably switch my vote.

Can you explain this post re: Titus?

[Amrun]

Rereading the setup I realized something interesting. I guess I didn't pay too much attention, but since scum have a rolecop, and can automatically eliminate 3 people from being the doctor since they're neighbors with them, the Doctor has a way higher then normal chance of getting shot.

I know we were talking about scumslips and townslips and elsa earlier. This would qualify as a potential scumslip imo.

I already noted that I think this post could come from a scum mindset, but how is it a scumslip?

I don’t understand why Elsa’s post is scummy at all. I mean that does make sense doesn’t it? Scum do know obviously that at least two town can’t be doc and rolecop can confirm another player, right?

Yeah but that’s not at all what I was thinking about when it came to the setup. Were you?

I just don’t understand how this post comes from a scum mindset?

Idk, maybe it doesn’t. It’s not a smoking gun. But I had given ZERO thought to a strategy scum might use to doc hunt. Absolutely zero. Not sure why town would really think about this in this way.

[Amrun]

Auro doesn’t like Krazy’s opening.

Oh nice, that should confirm me as town then :3

He also said in Excalibur that you don’t joke as scum. I’m still the most suspicious of DDL/Hectic but if Titus thinks he’s scum, I’ll probably switch my vote.

Can you explain this post re: Titus?

Titus claimed Hectic as her neighbour, so maybe she has inside info that can help us better sort him.

I took your original post to mean that you were going to intentionally vote the opposite of Titus. I guess not.

[Amrun]

@Nancy: That is not at all the context I think Elsa Jay’s post was made in. But it’s not impossible.

[Amrun]

I’m not pisskop but I’ll take that offer anyway.

VOTE: Elsa

Easily the most vote worthy so far

[Amrun]

I’m not pisskop but I’ll take that offer anyway.

VOTE: Elsa

Easily the most vote worthy so far

She’s town, trust me on this.

Why is she town?

[Amrun]

Skitter thinks S_S is town.

[Amrun]

Yes so far but I think it might be from quite awhile back.

I guess she just felt good about him idk.

[Amrun]

@Titus, if you’re seriously going to follow Math’s reads, then I will be advocating PLing you in every game we’re in. Not joking.

This seems really excessive and unfair. This is team mafia, and it’s her actual brother.

[Amrun]

I don’t think anyone is currently sr Eddie?

piss was arguing for pressure there even if it wasn't a full scumread so I was responding to that

Yes, pressure will be very effective on somebody with almost no internet. Scare me out of airplane mode!

Beetlejuice beetlejuice

[Amrun]

I don't think scum-bob would have any difficulty making that post?

I find this a little weird. From its chronology I can only assuem you were responding to nan posts. Where she questiosn hectic vote. A posts that does not imply she a town read on me but that a it stands she couldnt see anything scum indicative so far. Which is far cry from some thinkign that post looks towny. What she said is she liked my doc comments. Which is different from town reading those comments. But instead reading them as value to town

But you first response is to shout (paraphrased)" oh but scum bob could make that post"

I could understand this if it was accompanied by something you claimed to have seen that resulted in you scum reading. But there is no comment on my alignment in your post.

So im trying it hard to see the purpose of your post


I just cant see you making that post if you didnt already have scum read one me. Unless you were scum trying to shade what i said.

If S_S is scum, bob probably isn’t.

Factually, though, S_S is right and bob is easily capabale of that as scum.

[Amrun]

I literally have never read a post of Hectic’s, ever, that I don’t find to be scummy.

I find him scummy here too. Just not sure that stops him from being town??? Still probably higher than rand scum so completely fine with a lynch on that slot.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Hectic

[Amrun]

DDL, what’s your read on me and why?

[Amrun]

Ok so ... skitter and I just had some serious conversation and we’re coming in hot with the spice vote.

VOTE: popsofctown

Your vote on Something_Smart and the timing of it and reasoning behind it is bad.


NaCl is on the short list too for a bad Eddie vote.

[Amrun]

Skitter thinks the Hectic posts that pinged me is antitown but NAI for Hectic. I’d still like a better read on Hectic so I debated delaying this vote but y’know, fuck it. My vote should be on the slot I most think is scum.

[Amrun]

She thinks S_S is super obvtown and that popsofctown should know that. Basically the entirety of it centers around post #534. She said she’d vote for that alone and ultimately I have decided to do just that.

534 pinged me but I don’t know pops very well so I was going to take a “wait and see” approach but skitter’s confidence gave me some of my own.

[Amrun]

Remind me where have I played with you before, Amrun.

We have a couple games that haven’t finished but they weren’t what I was referring to anyway. We do have Radja’s game finished where you were in a hydra. I fully intended to mislynch your slot there but town vigged you first.

But I’ve been reading a lot of different games as a Scummies judge and trying to re-familiarize myself after my absence.


Pine strikes me as town so far.


@pops: I don’t like the insinuation that I don’t have my own reads. I have clearly delineated my reads from skitter’s at all times. She didn’t even catch up until last night. It was just when she had time. She has a few that I haven’t shared since they weren’t excessively important and I hadn’t formed my own opinion on them (Nancy scumlean, Krazy townlean, Oka town, I’d have to review the convo for the rest). I do agree with Oka town at this point but I personally have zero read on Krazy. My point is, if I were scum trying to fabricate a read, I had no reason at all to even reveal skitter’s read, especially in that specific way.

[Amrun]

Amrun, ank wants to know skitters specific thoughts on Pops please.

She wrote it all out in detail for me to share here since this question was asked.

Here’s the gist of it:

1) she doesn’t like that pops sided with NaCl on his poor Eddie vote when SS was bickering about it. SS made a valid point about Eddie being on vacation so it was essentially an empty vote anyway.

2) Pops voted SS for how he engaged w/ bob’s pressure, but SS was correct in his argument with bob and whatever pressure he was receiving she felt he acted in accordance with town behavior for him.

3) She doesn’t like the vague meta reasons pops is using.

In addition, after the vote response, she doesn’t like the reaction and how pops is trying to say she only came in because I needed help, which I didn’t.

I agree with all those reasons and I specifically noted 2) prior myself re: SS being correct on bob.

pops

, skitter would like game references and preferably post references from games that show S S scum game is similar or especially that his town game is dissimilar.

[Amrun]

Oops she didn’t want post numbers anyway, I messed that up.

She more wanted you to articulate the reasons why S S is behaving differently and then based on what game.

[Amrun]

Or, X behavior is similar to Y game, where he was scum.

[Amrun]

As for me, I was using my vote to add pressure, not because I was convinced that Hectic was scum, which was obvious.

I seriously considered waiting for Hectic to react before changing my vote but I was impatient. This doesn’t bother me.

[Amrun]

How is your vote on me more useful? Assuming without granting I'm a player that's very sortable with votes on her, very few votes have accumulated on me but Hectic had several.

Do you have any votes on you? I don’t think so.

From my POV, you succinctly summarized why pressure on you is more useful than pressure on Hectic. So, not sure what to say to that.

[Amrun]

Most people would adopt the school of thought that pressure votes improve utility superlinearly as they accumulate. I'm willing to buy you're in the minority in your thinking on that if you say so, though.

I think it depends on gamestate.

[Amrun]

Pine, why is pops town?

[Amrun]

Can you read the reasons from skitter & I and see what you think?

[Amrun]

For what reason(s) do you disagree, though?

[Amrun]

Hectic, why is that all about Titus?

[Amrun]

Not at all really.

[Amrun]

Nancy has played with Elsa before. I haven’t. I HAVE played with Nancy before. It was an attempt to help me sort them both.

Nothing caused me to unvote Elsa. I just found a better home for my vote. I didn’t retract anything I said previously. My feelings about it weren’t overly strong, but it was the strongest feeling I had in that moment. I have stronger feelings about pops now.

P-edit: I changed my vote because skitter and I got on discord and talked extensively about this game. She has more experience with most of these players than me, including Hectic and Pops. I’ve never played with pops before IIRC. She said that what was bothering me about Hectic was more likely to be NAI, and more importantly, she firmed up a background feeling I was having about pops. I was pretty explicit about this already. I don’t know why I have to rehash it.

I’m still fine with pressuring Hectic. I just also want to pressure pops.

[Amrun]

Nancy has played with Elsa before. I haven’t. I HAVE played with Nancy before. It was an attempt to help me sort them both.

Nothing caused me to unvote Elsa. I just found a better home for my vote. I didn’t retract anything I said previously. My feelings about it weren’t overly strong, but it was the strongest feeling I had in that moment. I have stronger feelings about pops now.

P-edit: I changed my vote because skitter and I got on discord and talked extensively about this game. She has more experience with most of these players than me, including Hectic and Pops. I’ve never played with pops before IIRC. She said that what was bothering me about Hectic was more likely to be NAI, and more importantly, she firmed up a background feeling I was having about pops. I was pretty explicit about this already. I don’t know why I have to rehash it.

I’m still fine with pressuring Hectic. I just also want to pressure pops.

So what did you see that after talking with skitter that you now consider to be NIA

I thought all meme posts + no content was scummy for Hectic but she said it could come from him as town. It’s not a townread from either of us. It wasn’t this big “unvote Hectic” plan but instead was a “shake things up and vote pops” plan.

[Amrun]

[font=][/font]

Remind me where have I played with you before, Amrun.

We have a couple games that haven’t finished but they weren’t what I was referring to anyway. We do have Radja’s game finished where you were in a hydra. I fully intended to mislynch your slot there but town vigged you first.

But I’ve been reading a lot of different games as a Scummies judge and trying to re-familiarize myself after my absence.


Pine strikes me as town so far.


@pops: I don’t like the insinuation that I don’t have my own reads. I have clearly delineated my reads from skitter’s at all times. She didn’t even catch up until last night. It was just when she had time. She has a few that I haven’t shared since they weren’t excessively important and I hadn’t formed my own opinion on them (Nancy scumlean, Krazy townlean, Oka town, I’d have to review the convo for the rest). I do agree with Oka town at this point but I personally have zero read on Krazy. My point is, if I were scum trying to fabricate a read, I had no reason at all to even reveal skitter’s read, especially in that specific way.

I’m really shocked at this Amrun, I thought you could read me better by now.

I literally didn’t even mention a read on you in this post. That was Skitter’s read.

Also of note, skitter doesn’t think Pine is towny so far, rereading my own post reminded me to mention.

[Amrun]

Halfway through this catchup, my son woke up with a fever of 104.6 so even though I read eberhjbng past where I last commented I’m not processing it. On the way to the ER. Sometimes when they’re doing testing on him I like to withdraw into distractions and sometimes I can’t concentrate on it so depending on how today goes I might be disconnected.

[Amrun]

So was somewhat of a false alarm, all good. I don’t feel like catching up right now though. Sorry to alarm everyone.

[Amrun]

RC isn't on any team here

Amrun and him are on the same teams. Check the first post in each thread. Both have the word Gap.

They're different teams although you're making the case for why maybe they should have rejected the troll name that MathDino's team used.

Fuck.

Never mind Amrun. Well there's some suspicion that goes away on that slot.

Yeah RC is not on my team, sorreeee

[Amrun]

or rather, why so many people are townreading nacl

Yassss queen

[Amrun]

Why would RC and Amrun being teamies affect your read of amrun?

Would also like the answer to this question

[Amrun]

this is very good actually

i want

<elsa,nacl,ddl,bob,amrun> to take sides and comment on this

Pops is still scum, Eddie is even more town.

[Amrun]

Also I’m posting from my son’s hospital room so like. If my battery dies before my husband gets back, I won’t respond for awhile

[Amrun]

WOO

Don’t get me wrong... I’m kinda pissed you did that though.

[Amrun]

this is very good actually

i want

<elsa,nacl,ddl,bob,amrun> to take sides and comment on this

Pops is still scum, Eddie is even more town.

What about Bob?

Spoiler:

Trivia points to anyone who gets this.

I find the fact that he is seeking to engage with me on purpose to be +town points for bob.

He didn’t do that last game and I nailed him. Bob is really smart so I’m reserving final judgment but scum bob could just choose to engage other players instead, pretty organically, rather than someone who just pegged him as scum within the last month.

[Amrun]

Not caught up but that caught my eye, will return later.


Baby got discharged so I’ll be home with toddler for a few days. Depending how much he sleeps could be harder to post, or easier

[Amrun]

He boycotted sleep at the hospital so mommy is tired now but perhaps he will sleep extra tomorrow

[Amrun]

this is very good actually

i want

<elsa,nacl,ddl,bob,amrun> to take sides and comment on this

Pops is still scum, Eddie is even more town.

What about Bob?

Spoiler:

Trivia points to anyone who gets this.

I find the fact that he is seeking to engage with me on purpose to be +town points for bob.

He didn’t do that last game and I nailed him. Bob is really smart so I’m reserving final judgment but scum bob could just choose to engage other players instead, pretty organically, rather than someone who just pegged him as scum within the last month.

Okay thanks, maybe it was a leap for me to jump to him being Hectic’s partner in event of a potential Hectic flip. What bothers me the most is that, Hectic had to know that likely at one person would be confused by his fake doc post and Pine commented on that too. However, what bothers me is that bob seems to be implying that no one would have that reaction, because of Titus’ claim and I obviously disagree with that. I also think that town!Hectic would probably show a bit of remorse for making that post, as in “sorry, guys I thought it was funny at the time but now I realize it was dumb” but he hasn’t really done that.

Why did you ask me in particular about bob?

[Amrun]

I mean...that readslist is pretty blatant jury manipulation

Agreed

[Amrun]

See, here's the problem.

Now I feel like Hectic is under enough pressure that his posts are going to be nervous and forced, regardless of his alignment. I agree that the readlist looked forced, I don't agree that it looked political, and I think it's definitely something a townie of Hectic's experience level might produce under serious pressure. (Terseness is actually a towntell there.)

You're right, I do feel nervous here because no one wants to be mislynched day 1 in team mafia, but I'm trying to be as transparent as possible to fix that.

This reads genuine to me I think.

Not a huge fan of this wagon anymore.

[Amrun]

The time to 'read as genuine' is when he isn't the focal point. he's done this multiple times so far.

I sr his play here in this game, his reputation for being mislynched notwithstanding

I have felt he’s genuine since he’s been run up. I +1 Pine as a reaction test for myself since I thought Pine’s point was valid, but Hectic’s reaction to THAT felt more genuine than ever.

This is a bad wagon with a bad comp. it stinks.

It was useful for info, sure, but that doesn’t mean it’s where we should flip today. I wanted to wagon Hectic to help me read him, and it did. I now townread him.



Skitter and I have discussed it. Her objections to the wagon are less about Hectic himself and more about the wagon comp. it has received no real opposition and her TR don’t really support it but aren’t against it. She thinks Pine’s 1081 is a “particularly scary bad reaction.” She thinks the wagon in general reads like scum trying to take advantage of a troll on a player known to be memey anyway.

[Amrun]

@Pine: what do you think of Hectic as a scum player? Is he competent?

[Amrun]

@Pine: what do you think of Hectic as a scum player? Is he competent?

I don't have any scum data on this site unfortunately. I have 1 offsite however.

Ok, thanks for that info - Pine, please change my question to what do you think of Hectic as a player in general? Is he competent?

[Amrun]

@Pine: what do you think of Hectic as a scum player? Is he competent?

I don't have any scum data on this site unfortunately. I have 1 offsite however.

which is why i think you'll flip here.

I don’t understand this post.

[Amrun]

let's bury that right now.
unless youre claiming doc, youre fake crumbing. agree or no

Dude he was already outted as a neighbor

[Amrun]

I mean, look at that scummy as fuck wagon on OkaPoka. I maintain that {Krazy, NaCl, Hectic} is an entirely plausible team

Isn't that a little too transparent for a day 1 counterwagon if we were all scum? Also, why would my hypothetical partners push OkaPoka who's been generally town imo and is push harder to actually push?

I could see Hectic and NaCl but not all three. The wagon would be overloaded.

I'd change to Hectic, Dr. D, and NaCl.

Where did your pops read go?

[Amrun]

@Pine: what do you think of Hectic as a scum player? Is he competent?

I don't have any scum data on this site unfortunately. I have 1 offsite however.

Ok, thanks for that info - Pine, please change my question to what do you think of Hectic as a player in general? Is he competent?

He’s competent enough that I don’t accept memeing in TM2020 from him.

I need to consult with my team, they think I’m out on a limb here and Hectic’s posting this afternoon has been better.

As for the lack of a counterwagon, that isn’t for lack of trying - there have been pushes on several people so far, they just haven’t taken hold.

If he’s competent in your eyes, then you’re scummy for condescending to him in 1081 that if he were scum, he could have faked his readslist better, yet still calling him scum for the same readslist.


Pine enters my scumreads. His teammates are reigning him in from pushing a bad mislynch.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Pine

[Amrun]

If Pine's just pushing an easy mislynch, why wouldn't he push me harder earlier? Second, why would he need an out?

I'm not a fan of this desperate effort to save Hectic.

When have you ever categorized yourself as an easy mislynch?

Pine’s too good to go after just anyone anyway - I should have said a VIABLE mislynch.

[Amrun]

Ok with NaCl wagon too.

[Amrun]

Just FYI Eddie, I'm not scumreading you for any reasons other than you outing yourself and pops' logic on you trying to be right and prove a point by doing something anti-town is scum-indicative. Wouldn't call a scumlean tunnelling.

Do you townread pops?

[Amrun]

Bob would you vote Amrun with me?

I still think Eddie is the correct day 1 lynch on this game thread but only Hectic believes in me.

I don't think there's any subset Amrun can come up with that doesn't make this really ugly for her. And she's repeatedly posted an implausibly strong scumread on my slot, yet my being offwagon wasn't enough to keep her from disliking Hecticwagon's "comp".

Still don’t like your slot. It’s still my preferred lynch.

[Amrun]

I had a previously espoused scum read on NaCl, which still stands. If I preferred the wagon over Pine/pops, I’d have gone there. Part of the reason I’m NOT voting there is similar comp. I just can’t hate the wagon when it is on someone I don’t mind wagoning. At least so far.

I have a pretty strong TR on pisskop, for starters, so he was never the issue on the wagon for me. I don’t think skitter shares that view, maybe? Can’t remember.

[Amrun]

Amrun aren't you voting pine

Yes... which is why this pushback on giving vocal support on NaCl wagon to see what shakes out is ridiculous.

But it’s from pops who is scum, so ... not entirely unexpected.

[Amrun]

@bob: the worst parts of the Hectic wagon were Pine, DDL, and Elsa Jay, none of whom are on NaCl. Pine being on NaCl is a big reason I’m voting Pine over NaCl. Pisskop and Oka, who happened to be on the Hectic wagon, are townreads of mine, so I don’t mind them being on NaCl at all.

[Amrun]

@bob: the worst parts of the Hectic wagon were

Pine

, DDL, and Elsa Jay,

none of whom are on NaCl

. Pine being on NaCl is a big reason I’m voting Pine over NaCl. Pisskop and Oka, who happened to be on the Hectic wagon, are townreads of mine, so I don’t mind them being on NaCl at all.

You can't even write out posts without falsities because it's so postproduced and fake

I did misspeak there, I meant to leave Pine out of that top list since I was talking about him in the next sentence and forgot to change it. Since it’s very clear in that same post that I knew Pine is on NaCl, this is (frankly) just a stupid post.

[Amrun]

@bob: the worst parts of the Hectic wagon were

Pine

, DDL, and Elsa Jay,

none of whom are on NaCl

. Pine being on NaCl is a big reason I’m voting Pine over NaCl. Pisskop and Oka, who happened to be on the Hectic wagon, are townreads of mine, so I don’t mind them being on NaCl at all.

You can't even write out posts without falsities because it's so postproduced and fake

I did misspeak there, I meant to leave Pine out of that top list since I was talking about him in the next sentence and forgot to change it. Since it’s very clear in that same post that I knew Pine is on NaCl, this is (frankly) just a stupid post.

No, it's

not

a stupid post, because it shows you're not retracing a thought process you actually had, you are making it up afterwards.
From your posting you "scumread" Pine more emphatically than DDL or Elsa Jay, that's not the one you'd forget.

I do now, I didn’t when I originally said the comp was bad on Hectic.

But in any case, I DID NOT forget it. That’s my point. The very next sentence shows I didn’t forget it. I just forget to correct the composition of my sentence when I was writing down what I meant because my thoughts were scattered.

[Amrun]

Quite on the contrary, if I was scum I would have carefully reread that before posting.

I started off composing the sentence as one thing, then changed my mind and forgot to go back and omit Pine’s name from the first part. Basically I was going to lump them together and say something slightly different, then decided that Pine deserved his own sentence.

Even if I had forgotten, that behavior is not any more indicative of town or scum, IMO. I have a shitty memory and I have been thought a lot over the last several sleep deprived days in RL with a very sick baby. If anything, I didn’t remember the exact comp of Hectic correctly when I even said it was a bad comp. I mostly remembered Elsa Jay’s awful vote on it, Pine being on it early, and I forgot Oka was on it, and thought Nancy was still on it. I didn’t bother checking because I didn’t really give a fuck. Hectic was reading genuine town to me and that’s all that mattered to me.

[Amrun]

So those types of errors aren't scum indicative

but if you had rolled scum this game

you

would have ensured

that you didn't make any such errors, by scouring your posts to make sure you remove them, because of how NAI they are.

I think you meant to say you would have a different post if the edit feature wasn't disabled in mafia game threads?

I think it depends on the player so it’s not a reliable tell and is NAI categorically.

FOR ME, personally, it is actually town indicative, but I don’t expect anyone to believe that just because I say it.

[Amrun]

Amrum were those two sentances in fact made separately or did you type it out as you went

Which two?

[Amrun]

@Hectic: Can you specify? Because I think I’ve answered that extensively. Did you want something else than what I’ve already said?

[Amrun]

@NaCl: I was just giving a basic list of who was on the wagon that made me feel ick at first, then I decided to go into a little more detail and give Pine his own sentence. I don’t remember the exact wording.

[Amrun]

I did think your interaction was kinda interesting but I guess I'm not sure I agree that it was 'intense'? Also when I played with him in the mini he seemed more solvey as town, although I also replaced in that game iirc and only read his early play later in the game when I could go through it all at once. I'll think about it though and add it to my reread list for later.

Who is this post referring to?

[Amrun]

So I went from almost quickhammering Hectic to being the only vote on him. Huh.

I missed the part where he became town, forgive me. But as a heads up, I'm claiming intent next time if I'm off the wagon. Sad I didn't get a quickhammer though.

Hectic didn't become town. Scum shaded pine so ppl got cold feet.

Who’s the scum shading Pine?

[Amrun]

I rescind my town bloc.

Can you be a little more forthcoming? You make yourself difficult to sort.

[Amrun]

Is Pine frequently mislynched?

[Amrun]

So I went from almost quickhammering Hectic to being the only vote on him. Huh.

I missed the part where he became town, forgive me. But as a heads up, I'm claiming intent next time if I'm off the wagon. Sad I didn't get a quickhammer though.

Hectic didn't become town. Scum shaded pine so ppl got cold feet.

Who’s the scum shading Pine?

Please answer this, Titus.

[Amrun]

skitter’s townread on Krazy went away but I’m not going to sit here and pretend I have a Krazy read of my own, because I don’t. Gun to my head I’d say town. I have never played with Krazy before.

[Amrun]

I'm getting killed tonight you're delusional

If you believe this to be true then your play is poor today and I’m disappointed.

skitter says if you’re town then your reads are worth paying attention to, but you’re not even really sharing any reads. To me you’re just a nothing slot who might as well have not posted. That’s not a good sign.

[Amrun]

I think skitter TR you FWIW but I’d have to double check with her.

[Amrun]

JK skitter doesn’t TR you and thinks you are self aware enough to know you aren’t getting N1 with your play here. But she’s not sure it’s AI.

[Amrun]

Eddie, we would like a reads list please?

[Amrun]

@Amrun, Skitter is still sr Pine right?

As far as I know. I’m pretty sure yes.

[Amrun]

VANITY
WAGONS
AREN'T
REAL
WAGONS

VANITY
WAGONS
AREN'T
REAL
WAGONS

VANITY
WAGONS
AREN'T
REAL
WAGONS

Eh, there’s 8 days left. I don’t get pissy about vanity wagons yet.


I probably TR Eddie now.

[Amrun]

Spiritual vote on pops. Go wagon go.

[Amrun]

Also bob is probably town.

[Amrun]

pisskop is one of my stronger TR at this juncture.

[Amrun]

hey friends

i cooperated and gave kind of reads

can i get some fucking votes on pops pleaseeeeee

@amrun pine wagons been stagnant u know u wanna

I prefer a pops lynch to Pine by a wide margin anyway.

VOTE: pops

Choo choo!!! Let’s go!

[Amrun]

I don’t think higher activity during Team Mafia is AI. Most people tryhard a little more for this.

[Amrun]

@ pops: Enjoyment tell I guess?

I think Team Mafia setting augments potential enjoyment enough that I don’t think that’s reliable here. But I also don’t know Pine that well or anything so...

[Amrun]

@amrun can you please ask skitter and jj for reads lists please? don't care about reasons atm

i can sync up good with jj especially

jj and I haven’t read each other’s games yet. (A50 either.). I actually don’t know jj but he seems nice. He said “I’ll read it when I read it.”

Skitter gave this for you though:

Town: titus, SS, oka, Hectic, provisionally Eddie

Not town: pops, Nancy, DDL, Pine

“In between”/lack of read: Elsa, Krazy, bob

She also would like you to articulate your TR on us. She also wants to know if ank/tw are willing to be bop’d on Krazy.

Neither of us really have a read on him but she thinks Ank’s Krazy read might be worth sheeping. Maybe. Considering.


My own list is as follows:

Town: Titus, SS, bob, Hectic, maybe Oka

Scum: Elsa, pine, pops, maybe NaCl

In between/undecided: the rest

[Amrun]

^oops, forgot piss in my TR pile

[Amrun]

I was really mad at Amrun for lots of reasons and kind of diverted it about the scumslip. I still think it's scum indicative but sanity check it probably is a smaller thing
It's much more scum indicative that she will only townread people who aren't getting wagoned anyway and is on all the wagons and approves of people she scumreads forming wagons to go mislynch people without her.
It's all less scum indicative than Eddie's play this whole game.
VOTE: Eddie for symbolism and all that

What do you mean I will only townread that aren’t getting wagoned anyway? That’s a bizarre statement that has no meaning.

[Amrun]

I also forgot Eddie in my town pile. Damn.

[Amrun]

Please don't call me "kid" or any other noun that doesn't describe me.

I think my vote is on Amrun right now, it'd be about the same as if it was on Eddie. Moving it doesn't matter, people changing their minds would matter more than the integers next to the names.

Why is Amrun scum?

Amrun is willing to lynch basically anybody. I can't remember a time she's come to this thread and said anything in the vein of "X seems like the hot wagon right now, but Y has higher probability to flip scum and serves my wincon and we should move to it".

I've seen players like Titus have that attitude as town and that's probably the kind of Titus we have here, but my interpretation of her timings and justifications leans towards this being the scummy wine-in-front interest in wagons that well slide into hammer quickly and get the first mislynch before this game gets re-paradigmed to have some scum in the consensus scumreads.

You joking, right? That’s like VERBATIM what I did when I originally voted you. I explicitly took pressure off of Hectic to vote you because I actually had conviction you would flip scum. That’s the most made up thing I’ve ever heard.

The only vote I have made to genetically add pressure to a wagon is Hectic’s wagon, period. Your statement here is not borne out at all by my actual voting history.

[Amrun]

So I've been reading through those Pops-Amrun interactions for way too long now trying to figure out if either of them are scum, and I'm still pretty confused.
I will say that Pops' tone is a lot more antagonistic than I'm used to, my one scum game with her she was pretty lax iirc. But also, I'm surprised she's scumreading Amrun over a "scumslip" which I don't think is scum-indicative. It's easy to make errors like that and you can draw logic to how it's more likely she wouldn't forget Pine since she was scumreading him most, but mistakes happens, and I don't think it's NAI, and certainly not concrete. Most "scumslips" are NAI and sometimes actually more likely to come from town. Amrun... something something, can't articulate right now.

No ones 2 strongest sr rn, should be either Amrun or Eddie. I think if Pops is scum, she could possibly be trying to derail a Pine wagon here. I don’t tr either of them rn. I think Oka’s solve is wrong by one, because I don’t think Piss is scum.

I am mindmelding with Nancy here and that really warms me up on her alignment-wise.

[Amrun]

If I am one of your top townreads why did you naked vote me earlier?

And not only that, in her subsequent posts, she never even explains that.

Eddie brought this up in neighborhood PT
My post is missing a comma of direct address. "Who's your townreads? "Krazy, okapoka and pisskop". I'm scumreading Krazy but I'm not confident about it

Are you scum reading or townreading Krazy? Which is it?

[Amrun]

@amrun can you please ask skitter and jj for reads lists please? don't care about reasons atm

i can sync up good with jj especially

jj and I haven’t read each other’s games yet. (A50 either.). I actually don’t know jj but he seems nice. He said “I’ll read it when I read it.”

Skitter gave this for you though:

Town: titus, SS, oka, Hectic, provisionally Eddie

Not town: pops, Nancy, DDL, Pine

“In between”/lack of read: Elsa, Krazy, bob

She also would like you to articulate your TR on us. She also wants to know if ank/tw are willing to be bop’d on Krazy.

Neither of us really have a read on him but she thinks Ank’s Krazy read might be worth sheeping. Maybe. Considering.


My own list is as follows:

Town: Titus, SS, bob, Hectic, maybe Oka

Scum: Elsa, pine, pops, maybe NaCl

In between/undecided: the rest

Wow, is this a recent Skitter read? I don’t know whether I can trust her read on Pine then. I still don’t understand how neither of you is tr me yet but whatever. But neither of us is tr Pine, so I guess that’s good at least?

It is recent. It was done in response to Eddie’s question. She’s not really concerned about you atm but last I heard she thought it was in your scum range.

I am undecided on you but gun to my head I’d say town.

[Amrun]

Skitter gave this for you though:

SKITTER YOU BUM YOU ARENT READING ME?

She says she’s not even going to try to read you, no way.

Oh yeah, Bob should be in my town pile too, forgot he was in the game for a min there. Can I ask why you townread Titus, Amrun?

That early game on Titus is almost for sure town. I’ll eat my sneaks if Titus flips scum.

[Amrun]

A puppet danced and said why is pops wagoned if no one townreads DDL?

DDL has some IRL stuff going on afaik. He’s meh here but if we are going to lynch a lurker please can it be Elsa Jay?

[Amrun]

amrun's been off my own radar for a while. just kind of started a lurk.

I expressed my opinion of her tho.

Are you suggesting that I am lurking?



Pops, ignore my above question. I see that you’ve answered it.

[Amrun]

I am mindmelding with Nancy here and that really warms me up on her alignment-wise.

I'm surprised skitter doesn't have nancy as town yet tbh

skitter has no read of me?

She said something like she feels like she should have a read but she doesn’t.

[Amrun]

I am mindmelding with Nancy here and that really warms me up on her alignment-wise.

I'm surprised skitter doesn't have nancy as town yet tbh

skitter has no read of me?

She read this post and said I could tell you if she had to pick, it would be scum, but she’s being influenced by ank and tw scumreading you.

Personally I have like zero read if you which is alarming in and of itself.

[Amrun]

Personally I have like zero read if you which is alarming in and of itself.

Why is it alarming?

When this happens to me, the slot is usually higher than rand scum, but I have NO experience with you which tempers that back down to true null. Meh.

[Amrun]

To clarify I probably played with you back then but I have goldfish memory so it escapes me. Haha. That’s funny though.

@Krazy

[Amrun]

A puppet danced and said why is pops wagoned if no one townreads DDL?

DDL has some IRL stuff going on afaik. He’s meh here but if we are going to lynch a lurker please can it be Elsa Jay?

I think lurking could be a towntell for Elsa. I think she’d be super active as scum. She was anyway in Great Idea Mafia and in Under the Sea.

I’ve heard people say this a lot, though I have no experience with Elsa as either alignment. My opinion is that if it’s a true enough meta tell that everyone spouts it, there will be a game soon that subverts it. I mean don’t get me wrong ... I don’t truly advocate an Elsa Jay lynch today over other more informational lynches. But this slot is gross, whatever alignment.

[Amrun]

Oooh we were in Hard Boiled, one of the games with Ythan back that pushed me to leave during my first run on the site. Not my best game, probably for the best you forgot it

I think I played that set up a couple times (used to be somewhat popular) but yeah, don’t remember, so sorry!!!

[Amrun]

Guys.
I really do thing SS is scum this game

I'm unsure on pops right now, but I think krazy and pine are both town

This is pretty against-the-grain thought. I lean DDL town now.

[Amrun]

@Nancy: my townread voting my scumread? I love SS voting pops!

[Amrun]

This is pretty against-the-grain thought. I lean DDL town now.

Why is this making you lean town? What if he had reads that aligned with yours, would that also make you lean town?

Actually no. I would expect DDL scum to buddy me.

[Amrun]

This is pretty against-the-grain thought. I lean DDL town now.

Why is this making you lean town? What if he had reads that aligned with yours, would that also make you lean town?

Actually no. I would expect DDL scum to buddy me.

Okay, but why is it a good thing that he has reads which go against the consensus?

@DDL: Why is SS scum?

It’s not really a “good thing,” I just think it’s something he’d be a lot less likely to do as scum right in this particular gamestate.

[Amrun]

Hate eddie votes, stahp

[Amrun]

@DDL: what’s your read on me?

[Amrun]

+rand scum, but subjected to large updating after some stuff

Are you not caught up?

[Amrun]

lol who wants to hear my reads list

its pretty fucking spicy

Pick me pick me

[Amrun]

bob/Nancy/Hectic
Amrun
Titus
Oka/SS/NaCl
Pine
Elsa/Piss/DDL
Pops / Krazy

Wait why is this spicy?

[Amrun]

@Krazy: Why is Eddie being pedantic and cagey AI?

I do agree he’s being pedantic and cagey, FWIW, just not that it’s scummy.

[Amrun]

bob/Nancy/Hectic
Amrun
Titus
Oka/SS/NaCl
Pine
Elsa/Piss/DDL
Pops / Krazy

Wait why is this spicy?

idk i haven't seen anyone calling hectic or bob town. mostly those two. i think they're, like, billboard.

I have personally called Hectic and bob town multiple times. Not sure I’m the only one either? I have been questioned (and answered) why bob is basically my TOP TR in fact.

I mean I basically agree with the reads with a few exceptions, I just don’t know why it’s spicy.

[Amrun]

@Krazy: Why is Eddie being pedantic and cagey AI?

I do agree he’s being pedantic and cagey, FWIW, just not that it’s scummy.

Krazy, can you answer this?

[Amrun]

How is he manipulating team reads?

[Amrun]

How is he manipulating team reads?

He posted his Dann comments 700 posts (half the game at that point) after they apparently were written to create the impression his entire team had reached some level of consensus on me

This seems kinda tinfoil to me.

[Amrun]

How is he manipulating team reads?

He posted his Dann comments 700 posts (half the game at that point) after they apparently were written to create the impression his entire team had reached some level of consensus on me

This seems kinda tinfoil to me.

its also just wrong

if you are employing the scum strat of looking townie via your team, you ask your team to give you (fake) reads. you don't just randomly write stuff and then @ them to fill in reasons, and you especially don't fill in the reasons yourself.

Oh for sure, but is tinfoil like this scum indicative? I kinda don’t think so maybe?

[Amrun]

VOTE: DDL

Mathblade thinks the game is devolved into TvT nonsense. I don't think his scumteam is totally accurate (Nancy NaCL Pine). He said if he was wrong DDL is scum.

I want to flash wagon DDL because no one TRs him and see if the bickering is TvT.

Hectic, I'll read your hood soon but can you talk in plain English?

I think I may townread DDL.

Can a TR be spicy?

[Amrun]

@pops: DDL is higher than rand town for his re-entrance to the game. His reads, while opposite of mine, are not political at all and that’s not how DDL plays as scum in my experience.

The time people were complaining about him lurking, he was busy IRL, and a lot of that is play style too. I have seen a reason anyone thinks he is scum that is AI in any capacity, just playstyle.

I have more to say about it but he and I are both waiting on something to complete. So give us awhile.

[Amrun]

Skitter thinks he’s scummy FWIW.

[Amrun]

amrun is the thing you were waiting on completed?

The comment I wanted to say from guns and roses was simply this:

The way you came into that game makes me think you’d be at least a little worried about me solving you and aggressively taking you down.

Since you don’t give me that vibe at all, and since you in fact espoused unpopular reads that are opposite of mine, I think you’re more likely town than not. But I let you down in that game so maybe you just don’t feel that way anymore.


However, I’m also really curious to see how the end of that game and my final flip informs your read here.

[Amrun]

Pops keeps attacking/shading people who have potential to defend her, and aren't on her wagon. She did it earlier with me when talking about how my wagon could be a town-driven scumwagon, right after I'd made some posts defending her. And now she's attacking Bob when she's probably aware that Bob has a tendency to OMGUS, and scum!her really can't afford to do that right now. I think this flips town.

Do pops and bob have experience with one another?

[Amrun]

Is that the first time I’ve posted like what?

[Amrun]

Do pops and bob have experience with one another?

Not sure. Was kinda assuming most people know Bob with the way everyone's talking about him.
@Pops: Have you played with Bob before?

I assumed most here didn’t know bob tbh.

[Amrun]

Is that the first time I’ve posted like what?

@pops

[Amrun]

I don’t think bob is overly prone to OMGUS. Bob is very analytical.

[Amrun]

Posting like you're basing your reads on what people are doing and how that fits who they would be as scum or as town like you're detectiving which is not what earlygame you felt like to me @Amrun

Ok, idk why not, but ok.

[Amrun]

@pops: does someone need to case to have a scumread?

[Amrun]

I don't want to argue with you Amrun.
Whatever point you are making I concede the point.
I was explaining a past thought process to Bob because he asked me nicely not canvassing Amrun votes.

How can I deepen or change my read of you if you refuse to engage?

I just completely reversed my reads in LyLo. I’m not afraid to be wrong.

[Amrun]

Really sorry about just vanishing, everyone. I ran into some RL stuff I needed to deal with.

If you are insinuating that it was a townslip, why did you ask the question underlined there?

So my first thought when I say that post was that it was a townslip, but I asked the question so I could get clarification for how Nancy actually came to the incorrect assumption there were 2 mafia, to check for a possible fabrication of a townslip. I'm pretty sure it's a townslip, but do you want to answer this, Nancy?

@NaCi, why in 1544 did Hectic’s response in 1435 ping you? Yes, while I initially did misinterpret his post as shade, it clearly wasn’t, so I really don’t understand your issue with it and why it would negatively affect your read on Hectic.

The question felt bad because it's not something that would ever get an answer that would prove something one way or the other. Hectic, I know that you'd say that, but I was asking why you'd ask it in such a way. Because both anyone, town or scum would just realize (or pretend) that they were handling the setup incorrectly and pointing out that felt like it was weakly shading things to be a scumslip. Also, just pointing out the slip beforehand makes it harder to get an answer that is actually useful.

I disagree with her read on Eddie. I think she was too quick to go after him over revealing the neighbourhood. I think it's far more likely that Eddie was irritated and revealed it rather than him being too careless and letting it slip. I don't think it's a very good reason to be townreading her and scumreading Eddie.

I do completely agree with her reasoning there though, because I have personal experience of catching scum using that exact same logic where being right is more important than them over figuring out alignments, Eddie's tone and nature this game has reeked of town otherwise though.
Regarding Pops, I initially read her outrage as genuine, but it is the first time I've ever seen such a strong reaction from her, but I've played with town and scum her, so I don't know if that's AI for her. If someone could weigh in on that.

I don't see how you found that Eddie did that because he wanted to be right. Like there is no incentive to reveal it for either scum or town and it felt like more of a natural reaction to me. Although I'm not really feeling my SR on you anymore, it probably just stuck out due to recency.

Now we have the hectic wagon. His alignment isnt known yet but we have 2 conditions. One he is scum and one he is town.

Now what woudl teh comp of both wagons be in each condition

If he is town one of:

Pine, pisskop, Nancy Drew 39, DrDolittle, OkaPoka, titus, elsa

is almost certianly scum.

But if he is scum would a wagon of that size really be all town this early. So just as likely that atleast one is scum

But would more be one one or the other and more importantly which one.

Um, yes, but that wagon plus Hectic is more than half the players. Do you think that there would be more than 1 scum on there if Hectic is town?

Pretty sure Bob is town.

Also bob is probably town.

@Amrun, @Hectic,
Are this due to Bob's most recent posts (well at that time)? Because to me it felt like he put up a bunch of wagons and didn't actually comment on anything, then said at least one person out of this huge wagon is scum. I was liking him more beforehand, but those posts felt like they were a whole bunch of dry, empty bread in disguise.

I actually have no idea what I could possibly do to rerail the game though. Eddie is just openly admitting to wagoning a player he thinks is less likely to flip scum, in a way the conspicuously aligns with not wanting his neighbor to actually become dead and incriminate him and/or not wanting to continue a dialogue with that neighbor when he's currently winning public opinion and only has it to lose. Like he can clearly just do what he wants now. Ali told me in discord something about how e catches scum that'd I'd never heard before, e said, "you often see with scum, spending a certain amount of time acting a certain way [this is paraphrase by the way even though I used the quote character, no banns Micc], doing the things that would get them townread, trying really hard. Then they get townread. And there is this flick of the switch where they realize they don't have to do it anymore. And they change and do the things they want to do. That's when you can catch them." E said he saw Dannflor doing that. The thing Ali hasn't exactly explained to me is how you work with that if you didn't roll vig, because Dannflor was never actually lynched. So now I'm just full of despair. I think Eddie may have already endgamed the 15p.

Point 1 (to the thread)

This is not a townie wall of words. Remotely.

Point 2 (to Pops)

It is my game, but I have 3 town voices I can dialogue with. I made the judgment call to place my vote on Krazy, factoring in their stated confidence vs my own. If that read ends up being wrong, I will be at fault, not them; part of my read is considering their reads. I think a lot of what forum players miss is that mafia is a

team game

, not you + a bunch of fuckos you have to persuade vs some scum. This is just posturing on your part.

I’m kind of not liking how Pops has been ignoring evidence that supports team reads are believable. Like I totally believe your team said exactly what you said they did and it totally lines up with what I’d expect from them thinking along a townie mindset.

Another reason why I believe Titus is town here, because I freaking know Math.

I disagree very strongly on this, I think team reads are entirely NAI. Anyone can choose to withhold their role pm (or lie about it) from their teammates and have them be thinking they're a different role from what they actually are.

Please don't call me "kid" or any other noun that doesn't describe me.

I think my vote is on Amrun right now, it'd be about the same as if it was on Eddie. Moving it doesn't matter, people changing their minds would matter more than the integers next to the names.

Why is Amrun scum?

Amrun is willing to lynch basically anybody. I can't remember a time she's come to this thread and said anything in the vein of "X seems like the hot wagon right now, but Y has higher probability to flip scum and serves my wincon and we should move to it".

I've seen players like Titus have that attitude as town and that's probably the kind of Titus we have here, but my interpretation of her timings and justifications leans towards this being the scummy wine-in-front interest in wagons that well slide into hammer quickly and get the first mislynch before this game gets re-paradigmed to have some scum in the consensus scumreads.

Amrun is down for every wagon, even ones that seem diametrically opposed in various ways, never convinces me that she's solving with the way she discusses her reads, and I still think the typo thing is at least a little scummy.

Her entire body of play seems like sheep scum very happy with the way this day is going to me.

If pops flips scum Amrun is a very strong townread for me. I don't see them going after each other like that as S/S. But I otherwise agree with the case, I do have the same feeling.

I'm keeping this here but I first did a vote on pops and then changed my mind on it. I still agree with it but I need the part below answered before I decide to vote first.

I'm feeling a bit more confident in things. (Vote: Pops I changed my mind on) even if she's not scum this is an informative wagon, but her posts are feeling more and more like scum-pops to me.
If pops flips scum, then Hectic is a likely partner. Amrun is likely town, Eddie certainly town.
If pops flips town, then Amrun is likely scum. Hectic is probably town.

I said he would endgame me, and he quoted me saying he would endgame me and said "get fucked kid"

that is bragging about endgaming me

I think this is the most important post in the thread. Pops, Eddie, can you both tell me which one of Pops's posts in this thread was the next one she made after this was said in your hood? (I'm pretty sure this is within the rules but someone please stop this otherwise).

Also, the Pine wagon is bad because Pine's town.

@Amrun, @Hectic,
Are this due to Bob's most recent posts (well at that time)? Because to me it felt like he put up a bunch of wagons and didn't actually comment on anything, then said at least one person out of this huge wagon is scum. I was liking him more beforehand, but those posts felt like they were a whole bunch of dry, empty bread in disguise.

The above was from Pine.

My friend, all of bob’s posts sound like dry bread in disguise, always. Does that really make the bread bag empty? The bread bag is not empty here. It’s like hearty whole wheat bread with oats and pumpkin seeds and stuff. If the bread bag was empty, that would be when bob is scum.

And ignoring the content of his posts because they’re walls with typos and make your eyes glaze over is a mistake. When he’s town, he’s sharp.


I don’t like, and I don’t understand, this thought that you think pops is scummy, but it pops flips town, then I’m scum. I just had a game where scum set me up just like that and was mislynched in LyLo over it.

Being wrong doesn’t make someone scum, especially when it’s something you yourself agree with. ?!?

And pops posting lately has been BETTEr, not worse.

[Amrun]

GDI I didn’t mean to quote that whole thing.

[Amrun]

I don't want to argue with you Amrun.
Whatever point you are making I concede the point.
I was explaining a past thought process to Bob because he asked me nicely not canvassing Amrun votes.

How can I deepen or change my read of you if you refuse to engage?

I just completely reversed my reads in LyLo. I’m not afraid to be wrong.

Well I'm saying I don't want to double down.

Maybe I'm projecting some other slots' behavior onto you but tons of people have asked me to explain a read or thought I've already explained before that I thought was borderline clear which has the effect of girding me into the same position, possibly triggering confbias, doubling my unpopularity if it was an unpopular thought the first time around, and like, I feel like at least 1 person doing it is doing it in bad faith as scum to manipulate me into an even worse gamestate even though they already understood me well enough to move along.

I don't want to double down but my thinking at the time was that you'd volunteer a NaCl case if you had one as he was largely uncased.

But why would I need to have a case to think he’s scummy?

He’s easily my weakest scumread and I don’t really have good reasons but the wagon isn’t awful. It’s just not my favorite wagon.

[Amrun]

I see

Amrun and Oka are probably both town if SS flips scum. Otherwise, I reckon it's Bob + Pops + Pissy, with 2 probably being town.

Can you explain all of this?

[Amrun]

I think that the replacement is a good chance for people to re-evaluate their reads on the slot.

This is true but the problem is I’m not interested in anything the replacement has to say because he refused to read or even talk to his teammates about the game, and he’s not really trying to engage despite what he says. What does he want - people to ask him questions? About what? He hasn’t read, so there’s nothing to ask. Whatever reads he’s given from one page of content mean nothing to me because he lacks all the context.

It’s kind of annoying that someone replacd into this with no intent of reading.

[Amrun]

I think that the replacement is a good chance for people to re-evaluate their reads on the slot.

This is true but the problem is I’m not interested in anything the replacement has to say because he refused to read or even talk to his teammates about the game, and he’s not really trying to engage despite what he says. What does he want - people to ask him questions? About what? He hasn’t read, so there’s nothing to ask. Whatever reads he’s given from one page of content mean nothing to me because he lacks all the context.

It’s kind of annoying that someone replacd into this with no intent of reading.

So what you're saying that (my) normal approach to this game notwithstanding is essentially frivolous and I am wasting my time? I have an opinion that people might not agree on-- but most mechanics esp like this only to seem to be addressed in circumstance. If the circumstance is that (I am scummy, because I am not talking to my teammates / they are not talking to me) then I wish you could've said it outright instead of implying that I should know better.

Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t think this behavior is AI, just annoying.

If you survive to further game days, your reads will mean something, because you’ll have an OK amount of context, even if it’s not purpose.

But in THIS gamestate, where most people find your predecessor scummy but a few vehemently defend him, and when your slot could potentially be lynched, it is very frustrating. I didn’t have a good read of Krazy so I was hoping to read you but I don’t think anything you say will help much ~right now~. Maybe later but not now.



There is an argument to made that not reading etc is a strategic move to take the heat off since you can’t be held accountable etc but I don’t really believe that’s what’s going on. Just saying.

[Amrun]

It does beg the question “why did you replace into team mafia at all?” though.

[Amrun]

@NaCl: How didn’t I answer your question about bob? Can you be more specific, then? Because I thought I did.

That wall about me and pops not being s/s is fine and all, and factually accurate, but none of it says why if pops flips green then you’d suddenly scumread me.

[Amrun]

My last post was a half-truth. The reality of the situation is that I am personally opposed to receiving help but also they are no longer caught up with the game, therefore I would like to speak of my own merit.

Why didn't you just say that the first time, though?

@NaCl: It was because of Bob's recent posts. I've seen this type of VCA from him before where he insists most wagons have 1 scum on them and tries to PoE using that logic. Mind you, I don't entirely agree with the theory, but his persistence about it is consistent with my other games with him. Though, I haven't actually played with scum!him so that's something to note.

This is useful and I'll wait on seeing what you're specifically talking about before I say more.

@NaCl: How didn’t I answer your question about bob? Can you be more specific, then? Because I thought I did.

That wall about me and pops not being s/s is fine and all, and factually accurate, but none of it says why if pops flips green then you’d suddenly scumread me.

For bob, I was asking about his more recent posts. I mostly wanted to know if 1603 and 1605 were something you were townreading him of off and if so, why.

As for you, it's because I'd believe that if it came from someone else other than pops really easily. I'd feel much more confident in the lynch if I knew that she was town.

I’ve seen him do VCA as scum. Those posts in particular I don’t pick out as town, no.

If pops is town, NaCl is exponentially more likely to be scum. I feel like he’s setting himself up to BoP a dead town into a second mislynch.

If pops flips red, it’s null.

[Amrun]

^or maybe even a little +town on pops red flip

[Amrun]

@amrun gnr gave me more information on how to read. I think I lean more town you here?

Why? What did it change?

Were you still thinking I would flip scum there?

[Amrun]

It actually offends me if you think I'm trying to posture lol

I’m not implying anything AI but that your entrance like Amrun has already pointed out has been based on nothing other than your anti-teammate read stance and yes, that qualifies as posturing to me. No one really cares about your philosophy pro/con/whatever on using team reads, we just need something to try to help us sort you and you obviously haven’t given us anything yet. Not meaning to be harsh but none of it was helpful.

You've yet to tell me why team reads are more beneficial than the person participating in this game right now

Personally idgaf about your team reads but you could have at least had your team catch you up to the basic context of the game that you are refusing to read so :/

[Amrun]

I don't think you're scum because I think you lied about your alignment to your teammates, Eddie. That's a stupid way to justify whether people believe your teammate's reads. Your teammates are capable players who can probably fabricate believable reads as scum anyway, so I don't think people should townread/scumread Eddie for those reads, especially when the reads don't come with the tone, presentation or other little things that you could usually observe about town/scum!Ank/Tom's reads if that makes sense.
Why are you focusing on defending yourself on that aspect, Eddie? Who's actually scumreading you on that other than Krazy, who's gone now?

Pops is top town for me now besides Nancy, I think. Eddie's slightly below average, but I'd still rather lynch Pine, Titus, and Elsa Jay over him. I might sheep Amrun on thinking this is town!DDL not going with the flow, but need to reISO him at some point.
Speaking of, where you at, Pine?

If pops is top town why would you sheep me on DDL?

[Amrun]

If pops is top town why would you sheep me on DDL?

You're a townlean, what does Pops being town have to do with it?

I got the impression you know DDL's play well/know him irl, or is this not true?

I think it’s odd to have pops as your TOP townread and then ALSO sheep me.

I don’t know DDL irl but he’s probably the player in this list I know best in mafia since I’m unfamiliar with most of you. We actually used to play back in the day.

[Amrun]

Can we just flip pops so we can have some more fruitful discussion tomorrow? Thanks.

[Amrun]

Pine acceptable compromise though pops is more informative and I feel strongly about it.

[Amrun]

I think pops might be town tbh. Theyre reads are consistent.

I dont recall pops' scumgame. Anyone have an insight?

Do you think pops would be incapable of faking consistent reads as scum? I don’t.

@Nancy: I’d feel dirty killing that slot today after the emotional replace out, but I’m not really inclined to delay progressing a 100page game for unwind when he doesn’t believe in catch up reading. What are we waiting for, in that instance? It would be easier to get him into the game with a flip or two he can actually discuss.

[Amrun]

Nancy, what can I do to convince you to vote pops?

[Amrun]

"Consistent reads" are not even a town tell...

In risk of fucking my self next time I’m scum, I have far less consistent reads as town.

[Amrun]

I only am admitting to it because guns and roses just ended and it would be obvious to anyone reading that sooooo...

[Amrun]

Like as town I don’t care about looking consistent. I care about being right, and if I realize I am wrong, I’ll 180 in a fucking heartbeat.

[Amrun]

I only am admitting to it because guns and roses just ended and it would be obvious to anyone reading that sooooo...

Who reads games they aren't a part of?

Hell there's parts of this game I haven't read.

DDL was in that game, but apparently, since I have returned, it is en vogue as I see people doing it left and right. Nancy once called me scum because I refused to read an old game I wasn’t in for like third hand meta.

Next time I’m scum someone will probably dig this up and nail me with it.

[Amrun]

Pops Piss Pine would be a wild solve

Real talk I think 2/3

[Amrun]

I feel kind of disengaged and like this dayphase is too long.

I can't actually fully read the last couple pages without skimming, which is unusual for me.

VOTE: salt because I liked pisskop's meme.

It's the kind of compromise wagon I'd like.

I liked Amrun's ddl towncase and Ali had a really strong reason for townreading Pine early in the game.
NaCl is the low impact slot in the game likely to be scum.
S_S even more likely, but people are townreading him.

What was Ali’s reason to TR Pine?

[Amrun]

I only am admitting to it because guns and roses just ended and it would be obvious to anyone reading that sooooo...

Who reads games they aren't a part of?

Hell there's parts of this game I haven't read.

DDL was in that game, but apparently, since I have returned, it is en vogue as I see people doing it left and right. Nancy once called me scum because I refused to read an old game I wasn’t in for like third hand meta.

Next time I’m scum someone will probably dig this up and nail me with it.

I was in a game with you and DDL?

I’ve played with you BEFORE Penguin?

No, no, sorry. Different game. I just mentioned you as an example of why I realized reading old games is like a “thing” now that was NOT six years ago. It’s honestly irrelevant.

[Amrun]

I mean, cheeky, amrun, and I just won a game by scumwagoning and blaming the townie on the wagon. 2 twice.

Glory to the blood gods.

[Amrun]

Unvote

This hurts my soul but I’m not letting Elsa lolhammer.

Claim, pops. It is time.

[Amrun]

I mean, cheeky, amrun, and I just won a game by scumwagoning and blaming the townie on the wagon. 2 twice.

Glory to the blood gods.

What is you and your team’s read on SS again?

Town. He’s contributed less recently but definitely town from earlier.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Hectic

Seems like this is a popular wagon.

Consider this my birthday surprise.

REAL L1

Damn, thought I got to quickhammer.

Ok Elsa.

[Amrun]

Ok Elsa.

[Amrun]

vote: pops[/vote]

Blood for the blood god.

[Amrun]

Dang it.

VOTE: popsofctown

[Amrun]

I really want that million bucks feeling when you push through a lynch and it flips red.

Crossing my fingers.

[Amrun]

Should I revote? This is getting really confusing.

Vote just to be safe but I think we are ok now??? I think pops is hammered.

[Amrun]

Woo

[Amrun]

If pops flips town, Eddie probably has to die at some point.

Why?

[Amrun]

So pops is hammered who is his neighbor for the conftown

Eddie is

[Amrun]

Why?

Math + hard push + counterwagon.

An unwnd scumflip would change that but I'm not sure if I want to turn around and sheep Eddie on his second scumread if his first was wrong.

Once again, being wrong does not make one scum.

[Amrun]

I never said he was scum, I only said he should probably die.

Oof, conversing with you is occasionally tiresome, S_S.

What’s your read on Eddie, ignoring all maths?

[Amrun]

Wow ok I guess just let people lurk

I’m not risking losing my wagon over some lurkfucks. No.

We’ll scare them out of their bushes tomorrow.

[Amrun]

Pine ddl

Please do not exclude Elsa, though I appreciate her sacrifice to the blood gods.

[Amrun]

I know it’s like the middle of the night but I want to rabble until there’s a flip.

[Amrun]

A town flip doesn’t prove the neighbour is scum, only a scumflip makes the other IC. Eddie vs Pops is either TvS or TvT imo.

Agreed... And IMO, Eddie is a rabble without a cause.

[Amrun]

What the actual fuck on that kill

[Amrun]

VOTE: Elsa

When it was pops being wagoner, she tried to pretend she would never lolhammer, oh me oh my hold onto my bonnet, despite actively trying to lolhammer Hectic earlier.

[Amrun]

Thanks, scum, for killing my #1 suspect! Thought I was dead so didn’t reread overnight.>.>

[Amrun]

The right play is always to shoot at me last night

But he’s conftown? This would have been true, even if it’s, say, DDL that was confirmed.

[Amrun]

Pine (4) - Hectic, Amrun, Nancy Drew 39, krzay

This was pines wagon from yesterday. Can everyone on it explain there pine read from day one. and how it progressed though out that day?

I think it’s fairly clear in the thread. I had a mild TR on Pine early on, but I really disliked his push on Hectic and found the way he went about it scummy. However, I strongly preferred pops wagon and tried (and succeeded) to make that happen instead. After the pops flip, I was fully on board with Pine as a partner and planned to come in here today and case him if I was alive. Very, very confused by this nightkill.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Elsa

When it was pops being wagoner, she tried to pretend she would never lolhammer, oh me oh my hold onto my bonnet, despite actively trying to lolhammer Hectic earlier.

I didn't lolhammer, I stated intent with the caviet if someone elsa voted I would hammer, therefore it wasn't a lol. You guys also can't seem to read my jokes as well.

Also ignoring the fact she was scum but okay.

I re-read and can see it from this perspective. Plus A50 on my team thinks you’re town and picked up on your neighborhood when I didn’t. I seem to have trouble interpreting your playstyle.

A50 and I were convinced pine was scum before he flipped. A50 thinks pisskop/Titus is the scumteam. I don’t really agree with him but his reads deserve to be shared. He has more detail but I’m at work and will have to get into them later.


Because I can...

I’ve been thinking.

VOTE: bob[/bob]

Bob was Pine’s neighbor. Maybe he was onto bob in there, or bob feared he would be. Bob fear kills as scum.

I retract my townread from yesterday on bob. I also didn’t really like his questions today - they were a little busywork. When I like bob’s questions, he’s a lot more likely to be town.

[Amrun]

Damn yo.

VOTE: bob[/bob]

[Amrun]

LOL


VOTE: bob

Clearly distracted at work sorreeee not totally caught up

[Amrun]

armum what does skitter think of my slot

Also what do you think of nancy slot

I’ll have to ask her, not sure.

Yesterday I thought Nancy was town. I need to re-evaluate in light of flips. I haven’t done any re-reading yet because I very seriously believed I would be NK.

[Amrun]

So my neighbor is Town. Good stuff!

This, we know now, was bob. But in #615, he’s already saying bob is suspicious.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say S_S is Town here, which means Jingle et al are as well. Hi Jingle et al!

Reads in no particular order or degree of strength. Just c/ped my notes from the catchup readthrough

Scum
Krazy - Bad entrance and followups. Reminds me of AVP
Nancy - Unjustifiable certainty too early w/r/t several slots (Krazy, Elsa esp)
Hectic - Bad off-topic/trolling posts, counter-productivity
bob - Maybe? Weak vibes

Town
Pops - Positive read, making a lot of sense
Elsa - Interactions from Nancy
Titus - Positive read, counterpoint to Hectic
Amrun - Very positive read
OkaPoka - I don't see the setup spec coming from scum? Setup-solving, gamesolving
pisskop - Obvious scumhunting effort
NaCl - vague positive read

Insufficient information
DDL (Please stop calling him Eddie Murphy, very confusing)
Eddie
S_S

For info. Krazy/Nancy/hectic most obviously threatened by Pine.
Still negative bob read.

Hm. Eh. We are not very synced at all.

I’m in the awkward position of defending pisskop in our PT to two people whose opinion and objectivity I trust. It’s weird

TR pisskop but teammates SR (for posterity)

Bizarrely, Nancy, I think we are suddenly on the same page with most things except Krazy. I'm still not convinced you're Town, but I have bigger fish to fry and your reads line up with mine for the most part.

Hmm

Pine why does two votes on me suggest hectic scum?

It doesn’t on its own. It’s evidence of counterwagoning.

VOTE: NaCl

Later on he developed a fairly strong salt scumread.

Why were you taking a break from this game?

Because I'd lost my cool and started to question a number of my reads. Hectic turning out Towny and the missteps surrounding nearly lynching him got me way off-balance. Eddie suggested I take a break from the game and I thought it was a good idea. I'm fresh and ready to catch up with a clear head.

My team has been keeping up to various degrees. Kuribo in particular wrote a page and a half, but I skimmed over it because I don't want it to influence me too much until I read myself. Then I'll try to summarize kuribo, mastina, and xtoxm's thoughts.

Have fun bro, hopefully you help me kill pops and krazy and dont fall into their shitty pockets

Last I checked, Pops was Town and Krazy was scum, so I'm on board for 50% of that.

I'm setting aside a couple of hours after dinner (cooking now) so we'll see after that.

He carried pops TR and Krazy SR into the end of the day.

So we have a few things here.

1) Pine was a claimed neighbor. They weren’t dochunting which they ostensibly should be.

2) Krazy/NaCl/bob/Nancy/pisskop had reason to threatkill Pine, in descending order of level of threat. After bob it drops off a lot as he warmed up to Nancy later.

I think this NK almost certainly gives us at least one scum in {Krazy/NaCl/bob}.

Though his SR of bob was weaker, I find this the most likely person to NK Pine because he was neighbor and had an avenue to get a better read on bob. Perhaps things were going downhill in the hood.

Also, bob has personally NK me for having an accurate scumread on him when I thought it was bananas for gamestate, just like this scum kill. In that game, the living players ignored NKA mostly, which is what he was banking on, as it has fallen out of favor.

If it’s not bob, it’s Krazy slot IMO, as if Krazy was a mislynch, why would they kill his most vocal detractor after Eddie? OVER Eddie, who is conftown?

[Amrun]

Armum the question is why did scum lynch him when a pine was possibility the next day.

That was the height of his wagon yesterday

Pine (4) - Hectic, Amrun, Nancy Drew 39, krzay

only 3 other wagons outside of rvs were lynched pops, confirmed eddie and hectic

Yes I know that’s the question. I’m attempting to answer it.

[Amrun]

First?

VOTE: nancy drew

got a cop guilty here i promise you

So my neighbor is Town. Good stuff!

Crackpot theory, but Pine made this post after only Oka and SS had posted. When I read his post back then, I interpreted it to mean he was calling one of SS or Oka - the only two to have posted before him - his neighbour and town. I thought it was more likely in regards to Oka's post over SS'.

If scum knows for a fact that both SS and Oka are in neighbourhoods - because either they are scum or in neighbourhoods with one of the scum - they know Pine was lying. This also works if this only applies to Oka, since it looked more like Pine was talking about Oka's post rather than SS'.

Could be why he ate the NK, and would also make Oka scum or in a neighbourhood with scum. Am I still on the rails?

I mean, I see what you’re saying, but I think that’s a leap. I personally assumed that he was either a) joking or b) his townread was based off of something in the neighborhood, not in the thread, with b) being more likely.

Is that an odd assumption? If it is, I need to re-evaluate.

[Amrun]

@armum

Menal has asked me to point out that in the daed thread of tris mini normal game the two of you agreed that my nk were very good. So he asks why do you think i would start making poor choices here?

I don’t think it would be a poor choice if you thought Pine was likely to turn on you. I don’t think your NK of me in tris’ game was poor, so that’s a valid question.

But I have very difficult time inventing any reason at all for anyone to NK Pine, and think I’m right that at least one scum is in {Krazy/salt/bob}. It is possible that the scum in that grouping isn’t you, bob. But for now I’m exploring the possibility that it is.

[Amrun]

@armum

Menal has asked me to point out that in the daed thread of tris mini normal game the two of you agreed that my nk were very good. So he asks why do you think i would start making poor choices here?

I don’t think it would be a poor choice if you thought Pine was likely to turn on you. I don’t think your NK of me in tris’ game was poor, so that’s a valid question.

But I have very difficult time inventing any reason at all for anyone to NK Pine, and think I’m right that at least one scum is in {Krazy/salt/bob}. It is possible that the scum in that grouping isn’t you, bob. But for now I’m exploring the possibility that it is.

Um actually Hectic should be in this list too. I kinda forgot about him because I TR him. Oops.

[Amrun]

And also to be perfectly clear, most of Nancy’s interactions with pops were awkward, so bob isn’t factually wrong.

I’m not convinced that makes Nancy scum, though. I think most scum of a certain caliber would avoid such an obvious thing. I want to re-read that.

[Amrun]

Why were you taking a break from this game?

Because I'd lost my cool and started to question a number of my reads. Hectic turning out Towny and the missteps surrounding nearly lynching him got me way off-balance. Eddie suggested I take a break from the game and I thought it was a good idea. I'm fresh and ready to catch up with a clear head.

My team has been keeping up to various degrees. Kuribo in particular wrote a page and a half, but I skimmed over it because I don't want it to influence me too much until I read myself.

Then I'll try to summarize kuribo, mastina, and xtoxm's thoughts.

Could this possibly be why? @Amrun. Mastina has a much better BoP on Krazy/unwind slot, so I could also see that as a possible reason if unwind is scum here. What only gives me pause is Krazy saying Eddie owed him a “massive apology” but I only have experience with lurk/coast/hide scum!Krazy not AvP scum!Krazy.

It could be. I’m not really familiar with any of these players. That’s why Krazy slot was on my list (not the meta, but the Pine read itself). There is really obvious equity for Krazy slot in NK Pine if they were afraid of a doc on Eddie.

Are you softening on your Krazy town stance?

[Amrun]

And also to be perfectly clear, most of Nancy’s interactions with pops were awkward, so bob isn’t factually wrong.

I’m not convinced that makes Nancy scum, though. I think most scum of a certain caliber would avoid such an obvious thing. I want to re-read that.

but certainly means there is case to be answered. When i questioned pops she first tried to just dismiss my line of questioning before she had to answer it. and she flipped scum


All were getting from nancy is ate. She isnt trying to talk us through her action as i expect a towny would do. scum dont like it as when pops finaly answered it showed sure signs she was scum.

Nancy’s reaction is kind of what I expect regardless of her alignment. Maybe even town indicative.