Guns & Roses IV [Game Over]

[MariaR]

VOTE: Firebringer

Hello hello~

[MariaR]

I'm doing wonderful firepup. I saw this awesome playerlist and thought I'd hop in.

Reading 31 pages will be a pain but I'll do it tonight. Sit tight everyone

[MariaR]

3am catch up time here we go

[MariaR]

And only 4 pages in 1 day? Guess I'll have to put some life into this. Don't expect too much from me though I'm not that impressive.

[MariaR]

(Insert obligatory skip the first five pages here because it’s always filler)

Page 5 is just S_S vs lilith. S_S comes off worse here due to the kinda defensive tone in posts like 116. I kinda want to tr lilith with how guns blazing she just seems to start the game with.

Don't talk about ongoing games votato.

Those slips are faker than pro wrestling wtf.

More votes on this will get you into my goodwill.
Also lilith, less tunneling. Ss is at least responding and trying to engage.
Unlike chk who is poking with unless garbage.

This made me look back and I don’t really like this. Especially if S_S does indeed flip scum. Independently they attack chk for...NAI filler from the looks of it. Saying ‘At least S_S is doing this’ is kinda bland in my eyes when that’s the bare minimum.

I’m on board with a chkflip wagon. farside is right, I’m tunneling and that’s my b. I’ll revisit SS later.

VOTE: chkflip

I’ve legit never been hit with more tone whiplash in my life. It’s not even like this was a day it was an hour. That’s...idk how to feel about that. It goes from ‘I GOT YOU SCUM’ to ‘Oh you’re right my bad’ I think it’s worth noting this was right after a VC with Voto at 5 and S_S at 3 but uh, opinions would be nice.

People sussing ABR/shading him on page 8/9 is kinda lol to me. To be fair one of those slots is me but hey who cares.

I want to declare a TR on Lilith but I'm also aware I'm biased and want to TR Lilith

Town.

There was no A at all in the post that were reference.
Nothing since then is really showing why you continue you read on the spot. You just want to egg on something that is not there and ride it out.
No where do I see anything other then antagonizing a player to react while not scum hunting.

Ooo let me throw my hat into the ring.

To me, S_S feels defensively aggressive and that in and of itself is kinda towny! Mostly because I think scum S_S is kinda a doormat half the time. But, it kinda mellows out later on. For Cakez here I suppose I don’t really fully get it? Were you saying that Cakez had one reason to sr S_S and now that he’s not doing that anymore he shouldn’t be sr? Because that is horrible logic, but if not let me know.

[MariaR]

I'm reading page 30 at my lunch break but I wanted to set a little bit of ground. Maybe reading some isos would be more interesting.

Yeah, that sounds good

[MariaR]

the way that wagon formed made me suspicious
either scum eager to bus or eager to mislynch
Iconeum and ABR fit in there

I think the way ABR is playing so gun ho and in your face is towny, I haven’t played with scum him before, but I like the way he’s playing this.
Icone iso seems perfectly fine to me. I think the lack of effort and I truly mean, bare min scum hunting comes from town more likely than scum here considering it’s just...meh? I wouldn’t want to deal with lynching Ico when we have guns to solve that.

I think my TR on ABR is strengthening somewhat, although I disagree with basically everything he's saying.

Welcome to ABR

I actually wanna lynch this now.

VOTE: Chkflip

What made you want to pull the trigger on this at this point?

That reactions that CHK just gave gives me major pause though. Im asking myself if scum is ever gonna go that far appealing to my sense of ego for being "that great" for picking up on something so subtle, or if its just town-him realizing he's achieved some subtle chances in his playstyle. I guess even scum can do the latter.

I dno.

This doesn’t translate well to me, in fact it seems pretty backtreated and scared. Like, just reading the two posts back to back you can see how shockingly different the tone here is. When the vote is put down it’s with confidence but when pressured it reads something else entirely filled with excuses.

VOTE: Vecna
Almost done sweet jesus

[MariaR]

Updated townlean cloud: {ABR, lilith, farside, votato, Paragon, Vecna, chkflip, SirCakez, Firebringer}.

Agree on: ABR/Chk/Cakez
Talk to me on: Lilth Farside Votato

Albert B. Rampage
Iconeum

votato
paragon
DonCorleone
eyestott

Talk to me on Ico/ABR/Don

God can someone be here so I don't feel the need to do these awkward catchups. Thanks

[MariaR]

VoteCount 1.6

eyestott [4] - Knightmare491, SirCakez, Firebringer, Albert B. Rampage
Knightmare491 [2] - eyestott, DonCorleone
votato [4] - lilith2013, farside22, Iconeum, chkflip
Iconeum [1] - votato
farside22 [1] - Vecna
Firebringer [1] - MariaR

Not Voting [1]

- Something_Smart

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to be chosen.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2020-05-02 23:35:31)

Votato has been a wagon almost all game, and I think they've made some pretty genuine posting. It also has 2 people I'm fine with voting at the moment. Shockingly, they're mostly townread (Lilth and farside) so this'll at least get someone to start talking. As for Eye, I need to go iso them because I'm pretty sure I skipped the point of the game where they posted at all.

[MariaR]

I actually really like eyesctott they're coming back from a break or something if I read that correctly and the tone of there posts is really light and relaxed. Like they're just kinda here ya know? I don't see any agenda in their posting. So that raises the question is scum sitting back and just letting these wagons go?

Maybe. Might I suggest a Vecna Farside or Lilth wagon in the meantime? Lets put some life into this game!

[MariaR]

Lilith I feel is forcing her emotions. When I look at her iso I see so many tone shifts. That in and of itself isn't scummy. But when it looks like a pattern that's when it becomes a problem. Whenever she was pushing a scumread it got aggro and whenever it was not it went to friendly/causal. Combine that with the biggest iso in the game and I don't really see strong reasons to townread her. (I could look into her votes but I was being lazy) I think she's a fine vote because she's building up her own advantage. I could quote posts but I don't think this is really shocking info.

Farside, on the other hand, is a really popular townread and I find that super interesting! I can't really get to point A to point B with her. Like I think she has her expectations super high with certain things and not with others. The Cakez read that I brought up for example before. Also check her 2 reads lists in 411 and /781 I didn't see it at first, but really I think she's just trying to shift her gameplay to fit the currant situation. Whatever that may be. I don't see towny solving or good follow up to her scumhunting.

[MariaR]

What feels fake about it to you? Like are there certain examples that read super fake to you?

[MariaR]

I can't be the only one who has the opinion that Eye/Votato are town right now and that these wagons suck right?

[MariaR]

ABR isn't a follower. His playstyle this game is just drifting along. Can you explain how you get that as town ABR since he does that as both alignments?

I haven't played with scum ABR to my knowledge. Do you see him taking advantage of any situation or doing anything scummy? Sure if you think he's drifting that's all fine and dandy but if that's how it's working we'll see that with votes.

[MariaR]

The bold is not a scum tell.

It is if you take it into context with the rest of the way someone is choosing to act.

Perhaps you can oh I don't know, try to work with me? We both scumread each other so we'll only be getting more info out of each other right?
Super convenient that you only started pushing my slot when I replaced in. Who also did that...oh Vecna that's convenient too!

[MariaR]

Are you scumreading me?

Yup!

[MariaR]

I dislike how farside is treating/talking to my slot like it's already scum instead of trying to ya know. Just talk normally but that can just be a dif in playstyle and annoyance more than anything else.
pedit: It makes me want to wagon Vecna even more!

[MariaR]

I AM SO CONFUSED RIGHT NOW

eyestort, they are both similar but also vastly different. Both net a modicum of information that is arguably useful but also not very useful; however, both are bad because mass claiming is bad and you should feel bad for letting it snowball to this. I hope this helps.

I'm crying now
does that make you feel good?

VOTE: eyetott

That's not a town mindset, it's scum trying to scare town.

I think there's a very real possibility Knight is scum trying to force a massclaim so he and his buddies can kill all the guns N1
VOTE: Knightmare491

Posts like these

I guess I kinda see that. Or at least, how you can see that. I can't say I really agree because I don't see why scum tries to force that narrative when it gives them almost no advantage in game state.

[MariaR]

What does Chk have to do with any of this?
pedit: Having matching reads or views isn't and never will be a towntell in my book. You can have whatever reads or views you want on paper. The reasoning behind your actions and stages is what matters to me. Since Vecna is claiming to have the same views as me seeing him flip? That's a ton of info for me.

[MariaR]

THE DOUBLE SCUM TAG TEAM OH BABY I LOVE THIS. Live interaction is my stick lets go, sweeties,

[MariaR]

I'm sorry did I miss the part where you explained why you were town reading ABR?

*looks around*
Nope.

Oh sorry you must've missed it in my very long iso let me grab it for you

I think the way ABR is playing so gun ho and in your face is towny, I haven’t played with scum him before, but I like the way he’s playing this.

ABR is giving his vote over to lilth whom you are scum reading. That is just priceless shit that I can't make up because it's in the game.

This is cool and I wanna know why he's doing that so if I'm wrong on lilth we can hey ya know, talk about it like cool kids ya know? Sounds kinda fun. Like what narrative are you trying to paint here?

That's so cute. Did you miss the post where I was scum reading Paragon before you replaced in?
No......

No I saw that part and if you were pushing my slot/asking for votes before my replace in I would understand and it'd be fine. But I don't think you were doing that. Do you see how from my pov that looks really weird how you just start pushing me when I come on in?

The piece that just reads like a perfect end is that you are reading venca as scum with me, when he was voting for me.

Is this supposed to make me change my read or something? Srs question.

[MariaR]

Also, there seems to be this whiff of "im saying these things because im being questioned for things". He suddenly reverts to like, very fluffy responses at times, instead of biting back. Leads me to question whether its the real deal or he's responding based on what the situation warrants.

This is probably the fairest take I've ever seen someone have of me. Our last game made me kinda look inward and I want to make sure I don't go that far with anyone basically ever again. It made me too angry, I was ultimately wrong, and it hurt the game. I made a promise in post that I wouldn't do that again and I'm making steps toward chilling the fuck out and just going with the flow.

Don't worry, I don't like me either.

This is what Maria wants to call "my vote being pressured"

Not at all. This comment has nothing to do with it and I don't know how you got that? I was referring to this:

I don't really understand your votato read, Vecna. What confuses me is that you also had some doubts around Lilith if my memory of your ISO is correct. If chkflip hopping onto the "hmm yeah maybe we should look at Lilith" wagon prompted by my post pinged you about him, but votato doing the same thing

didn't

then I don't get it. Or more like I don't get why that specifically prompted you to want to vote chkflip.

Does this not seem like pressure? Am I that blind. No, this is pressure.

[MariaR]

Please let me know what question if yours I'm not directly answering so you can stop using buzzwords. That'd be lovely

[MariaR]

What does Chk have to do with any of this?
pedit: Having matching reads or views isn't and never will be a towntell in my book. You can have whatever reads or views you want on paper. The reasoning behind your actions and stages is what matters to me. Since Vecna is claiming to have the same views as me seeing him flip? That's a ton of info for me.

People's action!! and stages.
See the first part I get. Reads, views, interacting, trying to see if it's a scum or town pov. Prodding acting to prodding.
But rational and MS are not a thing I put together in a sentence. Not with players like NM, Fire,............I need another name of a crazy hat player but you get the idea.

True not everyone is a rational tryhard player etc. But you need to assume everyone is playing to win and not trolling town or scum. So when you put down a vote that's not RVS there's a reason for that and you can figure out the action behind it too. Even if the reason is as simple as 'I was angry'

[MariaR]

I dislike how farside is treating/talking to my slot like it's already scum instead of trying to ya know. Just talk normally but that can just be a dif in playstyle and annoyance more than anything else.
pedit: It makes me want to wagon Vecna even more!

I'm sorry you rolled scum. If you were town I would be really nice and try to see your pov but so far everything you posted look made up and vague.
Thank you for replacing. Much love to you for doing that.

You think everything I've posted is made up or vague or just my catchup?

[MariaR]

Except that post made a wrong assumption on why I voted chkflip. After I after I explained the reasoning, evern chk himself was agreeing with my reasoning.

So how is there any pressure? Did you see DonCorlo come after me after that explenation? no? so where is the pressure that caused me to back off?

I gave my reason for unvoting. chk was very disarming in his response. Either it was great ate, or just a very genuine progression that caused his shift in meta from the last game we played together.

But hey, interpret it as you will. It certainly wasn't pressure. And even if I felt pressure, im fairly sure you know I have no problems dealing with pressure as scum.

It doesn't matter what the posts intent was.

The point I made was that you voted chkflip with a lot of confidence.
After that post was made you changed on a dime.

Also how am I supposed to know that 'you have no problems dealing with pressure as scum?'

[MariaR]

Please let me know what question if yours I'm not directly answering so you can stop using buzzwords. That'd be lovely

Hi pot this is kettle.
How are you?
I'm good.
So you used buzzwords like gun ho to describe ABR without showing why you thought that. And buzzwords like this little gem of vaugness

It is if you take it into context with the rest of the way someone is choosing to act.

which was in regards to lillth's plays this way.
The catch up is a mish mosh of cherry picking comments and then realizing, whoops I have nothing so I'm going to through names out and go tada, look i have scum reads.

That was maria's catch up post in a nutshell.

With ABR I didn't really think I needed to show it because it felt well...obvious in his whole ISO? But fair enough. Never said I wasn't a hypocrite~

My catch up was trash I can admit that did you see how much of that I was struggling with? Catching up at 3am that isn't a tryhard game for me was probably not the smartest of ideas but hey, live with what you learn. My catch up was mostly me wanting to show my scumreads than people I tr. I'm much better at talking live and explaining my thoughts so that's why I'm excited.

[MariaR]

Uhhh we played that card game ye? I think that's the one.

[MariaR]

That was a great game the bp was amazing ah, fond memories fun game.What were you scumreading about my slot before this Vecna?

[MariaR]

No I saw that part and if you were pushing my slot/asking for votes before my replace in I would understand and it'd be fine. But I don't think you were doing that. Do you see how from my pov that looks really weird how you just start pushing me when I come on in?

Actually farside was pushing/engaging paragon slot: 745 751 762 781 803

Paragon’s last post was 782 so it’s really unfair and leaning towards misrep to say that farside wasn’t pushing your slot before you replaced in. There wasn’t anything to push after she last mentioned paragon.

I disagree. I saw the part where she was talking to my slot, but I find it odd that she just started the real push/putting the vote down where I came in.

[MariaR]

That was a great game the bp was amazing ah, fond memories fun game.What were you scumreading about my slot before this Vecna?

It was very shit and mediocre reasoning.

The reason you have my vote now is mostly this idea I have in my head that youre always gung-ho (he-he) aggresive as scum, and pretty mellow and bored with everything around you as town.

Also, that thing about the pressure, but yeah, catchups with low attention level are prone to cause that.

If town here, you should sometimes just admit it when your argument was shit. It works wonders or so ive learned, people understand it when u shit the bed

Are you...reading me as aggressive and gung-ho here? I feel like I've been pretty chill! A bit excited sure, but chill. That's interesting to note though.
I'm pretty sure I've also admitted my catch up is trash and will be trash that's why I was asking farside if she thought all my posting was bad or just my catch up. If she said just my catch up I was gonna reconsider my read

[MariaR]

That was a great game the bp was amazing ah, fond memories fun game.What were you scumreading about my slot before this Vecna?

attempt to pocket?

Yes.

[MariaR]

See calling a play gun ho that has done nothing to lead the town or take a stance is crap.
You can't expect me to believe that you read the game or see someone who is trying to figure the game out even reading abr's iso alone.
So yes I'm going to call crap as I see it. Next is lillth. You gave vague gut, her emotions and how she flips flop back and forth. But wow guess what I do that. Go check out the doubles game I just played where I went back and forth on reads and how I was feeling and up's and downs.
That's called being invested in a game girl.

1) He's being aggro. Is that not what the term means? In your face gung-ho etc etc
2) You're right he's not trying to do anything you just listed and I never said he was. That doesn't have to be the base of a townread and that's not what mine is based on at all. If that was the only way to townread someone you would be scumreading half of MS alone.
3) People have changes in emotion that's human. Everyone does it's perfectly normally. In a game like mafiascum you have highs and lows. But when you see a pattern like I do in her like I've said and how her random change is odd. That's when I take issue. I've been invested in games before hell we've played before. It's not that hard in my eyes to see the issue here.

[MariaR]

You're chill MariaR don't let anyond ruffle your feathers.

Thanks sometimes people read my tone wrong and it's got some people to think I dislike them so I wanted to clear that up for personal reasons.

[MariaR]

That's not what I'm saying and I'm pretty sure you know it.

[MariaR]

Okay, is this better: you're calling me fake for playing emotionally

I'm saying part of your emotions are exaggerated/planned

[MariaR]

See calling a play gun ho that has done nothing to lead the town or take a stance is crap.
You can't expect me to believe that you read the game or see someone who is trying to figure the game out even reading abr's iso alone.
So yes I'm going to call crap as I see it. Next is lillth. You gave vague gut, her emotions and how she flips flop back and forth. But wow guess what I do that. Go check out the doubles game I just played where I went back and forth on reads and how I was feeling and up's and downs.
That's called being invested in a game girl.

1) He's being aggro. Is that not what the term means? In your face gung-ho etc etc
2) You're right he's not trying to do anything you just listed and I never said he was. That doesn't have to be the base of a townread and that's not what mine is based on at all. If that was the only way to townread someone you would be scumreading half of MS alone.
3) People have changes in emotion that's human. Everyone does it's perfectly normally. In a game like mafiascum you have highs and lows. But when you see a pattern like I do in her like I've said and how her random change is odd. That's when I take issue. I've been invested in games before hell we've played before. It's not that hard in my eyes to see the issue here.

!) He called a player obvscum. That was the most aggressive post. How can you say he is being aggressive. I asked you for specifics and you keep dodging the question.
2) What is your town read based on then?
3 You still haven't given examples of how lilith has done anything you are suggesting. Its just words on an MS board.

1) I seriously don't know how to answer this without saying look at his iso it's all there. Like, all of it. Do you think he's thinking out his posts and planning on how to give scum a better advantage? Do you see him manipulating people or posts? No it's just, I look at his posts and think 'that man is posting without a second thought.' Town act before they think. Scum think before they act.
2) See above
3) I did in my catch up. See the S_S/Lilth interactions and how aggressive she is and then a sudden stop early game and then it slowly goes back to aggro. Then, it's casual with people she townreads aggro etc etc.
Do you not see what I'm talking about in her iso? I can go grab quotes for you if you want but I want you to go look yourself first.

[MariaR]

Okay, is this better: you're calling me fake for playing emotionally

I'm saying part of your emotions are exaggerated/planned

Okay, how can you tell? It seems like you're just reading my posts and ascribing exaggeration/planning to them

No one can truly tell how the emotions of someone else work. I'm saying I think some of your stuff is fake and I noticed a pattern and a few glaring points. I showed those glaring points and the pattern. I don't think there's much more I can really say on it?

[MariaR]

See I've never dodged a question in my life. If there's ever a question I don't wanna answer I'll tell you. So if you think I dodged a question point it out to me. Saying people dodge questions and thinking no one is gonna bring it up is stupid that's like mafia 101. Just because you're not satisfied with the answer you're given does not mean someone is dodging.

[MariaR]

you forgot to point out the key point in that second statement: Aggressive.

Not an inconsistency. Good try though

[MariaR]

I'm debating if it's worth it to really go through that iso right now let me go grab a water and come back

[MariaR]

Spoiler: S_S vs Lil

Lilith, I have a bad feeling that you don't know me as well as you think you do.

nope

lynch this please

Why does no-one have any interest in whether or not votato is town faking lack of knowledge of scum having a pt or scum faking it?

What am I, chopped liver?

Yes

The downside of a gut read is that it's impossible to engage.

I’ll get back to you once my read is further substantiated on something you can defend then.

I’m on board with a chkflip wagon. farside is right, I’m tunneling and that’s my b. I’ll revisit SS later.

VOTE: chkflip

As you can see it starts off really aggressive and then a sudden stop randomly. 'Huh I'm tunneling' See that'd be cool if that thought was genuine but Farsade made that post about 30 posts before that and lilith was still posting after

Don't talk about ongoing games votato.

Those slips are faker than pro wrestling wtf.

More votes on this will get you into my goodwill.
Also lilith, less tunneling. Ss is at least responding and trying to engage.
Unlike chk who is poking with unless garbage.

See? So did that thought randomly hit her brain or something? She was posting in live time so you can see how fake that thought process and how timed it is. The aggro on S_S is for the sake of getting a townread exaggerated. Voting Chk who was suddenly getting a wagon going. It's called opportunistic vote hopping.

Spoiler: Examples of 'anger'

Tbh I don’t trust ABR reads whatsoever so that basically means votato is conftown for me

This was originally sarcastic but whatever I plan to ignore all ABR reads

Hard and immediate backtrack noted.

Revising an opinion when you get new information, like, oh, actual confirmation from ABR that it was a legitimate vote, is called backtracking now?

Yeah you’ve taken everything that’s happened in this thread incredibly seriously

One post happened to actually be serious

So?

Sure she's calling some of her posts 'not serious' when it gets talked about but uh, excuses anyone?

Spoiler: not pressued

I’m on board with a chkflip wagon. farside is right, I’m tunneling and that’s my b. I’ll revisit SS later.

VOTE: chkflip

Lilith, why did Faraide convince you that you were tunneling rather than correct about an early gut scumread?

I actually already dropped my SS push in 116 on the basis that all I had at that time was a read I couldn't explain to anyone, which evidently is not a very convincing case for building a wagon. 163 is the next time I'm in the thread and I explicitly moved on to interacting with a different wagon there. I'm not saying my scumread is wrong because I still have that read, but with farside calling me out I realized that pushing my read without evidence was not going to be productive so I decided to move somewhere else and revisit my SS read later.

whoa, it's not Faraide's fault he got dragged into this!

oh. Sorry Faraide

When people aren't disagreeing or pressing her she's back to go lucky and casual. With farside her 'top townread' she's extremely nod nod happy all the time. I just don't think this is how someone would act in a game of mafia

I can keep going but you get my point. You can be all happy with your townreads. You can be all 'grr' with your scumreads. But when you overdo your emotions to try and get an advantage on the gamestate? That's where we got an issue.

[MariaR]

Yup, No evidence found here in regards to ABR as I asked repeatedly and no following someone else's logic and vote in no MS world is a town tell.

The evidence is right there just because you don't like the answer you got doesn't mean it's
A) Not a town tell
B) Dodging/not evidence.

You should really learn that.

[MariaR]

Wait that came off really bitchy on another re read. Sorry

[MariaR]

Fine I'll let the thread breathe a bit

[MariaR]

I think u have a decent understanding of how mariar might operate scum/town; I just don't think its been applied her correctly.

ill just say town her isn't afraid of saying anything because she doesn't mind of she gets shouted down for her opinions.
scum her isn't afraid as well but can smooth it over by appearing more reasonable measured and less aggressive which gets her scumread less.

I don't find her that aggressive here.

So I don't know if I agree with ur analysis.

I really hate how much I’ve tried to get people to understand using meta on me doesn’t work.I can name exactly three people who can probably meta me correctly and that’s because they talk to me on a daily basis.

I’m a mood based player and what I mean by that is how I play a game depends on my irl mood at the time so I could be a bit calm for one minute and then a snarky jerk the next. That’s why when I see stuff like what you and Don are doing? It annoys me.

Am I a really good scum player? Yes, of course I am. Can I fake emotions? Yes I can do that too. But does that mean scum me plans out fake emotions or goes into a game saying ‘this is how I’m gonna act?’ No, I stopped doing that years ago. I want people to read me based on my performance in this game, not others. Like this post:

THE DOUBLE SCUM TAG TEAM OH BABY I LOVE THIS. Live interaction is my stick lets go, sweeties,

Not me trying to be aggro or snarky. Nor are any of the other posts you people have been trying to say because as I’ve said before: Tone readingg me does not work. That post was me being happy and excited because I was getting pushed and that’s fun. Non meta pushes on me are what I want. What you guys are doing right now? Not what I want.

Like scum maria can def be rude as fuck. She just is usually more cordial. I don't feel like she has posted enough for me to accurately sy "ohh yeah she is doing her scum play of soft but strong pushes" or town because "she is willing to and is fighting anyone without any fucks given".

Like this isn’t how I play. If I put in all my effort and tryhard a game you’re gonna see me turn into an emotionless robot 9/10 times. Me being calm is because I want to not upset people. I think the only time I was purposely snarky this whole entire thread was 1 post at farside.

I suppose the moral of this rant is don't townread me or scumread me for meta that you have wrong. Try to focus on this game and get your own assumptions based on that.

[MariaR]

Or

Consider this

Maybe he’s a scum gun staying quiet because he doesn’t want to not get his shot off

Idk this doesn’t seem like the style you’d go for in a game with 3 scum and guns lurking around. Seems like a setup for failure.

If we’re forced onto one of the 2 main wagons eyescott is strictly better on pure information even if I won’t be voting it myself.

[MariaR]

I think Maria subbed in thinking ABR would likely be the obv-town he usually is, called out a unsubstantiated TR there, and then got slapped on the fingers for it

Can’t remember the last time I’ve ever played with ABR but this is a stance I suppose.

Same how she called out an unsubstantiated scumread on me, got slapped around, then proceeding to try and buddy me while leaving her vote on me.

If you’re really gonna start claiming that me saying ‘wow that game was fun why do you scumread me?’ is budding then this just reinforces my scumread on you because that’s just, stupid? Like you’re not the kind of player who would have this kind of thinking that is purely illogical. Yes I’m trying to buddy you by calling you scum and keeping my vote on you? Like, what?

we explicitly went over how I was pushing Knightmare!scum in the face of multiple townreads on him for TSTBS. How is that in line with playing it safe.

Pushing on lynchbait is about the safest place in the world for scum to push... it's easy to write it off as just a townie getting distracted, and they're not likely to push back very hard.

Lynchbait has always been a sensitive term because you have to first define who lynchbait is and why. Second of all just because someone is lynchbait doesn’t mean they can’t get a mafia role pm. I think the way to handle that is to see why someone is ‘lynchbait’ and what actions they have that are scummy.

Cakez and DC are scumbuddies. Lilith / farside are sheep-town victims, bait for the wolves to draw the flock.

Lilith and farside are def sheeping everything in sight.

i wonder if i should be worried about that

*Wink*

Lets look at the contradictions here. Claims gun.
Prior said he had no gun.

And the issue with this is? I dislike how you’re painting this out as scummy when faking you don’t have a gun is 100% the correct play here

[MariaR]

why arent u responding to my plan ABR?

Your plan doesnt work without firebringer and im not changing votes. You with me or against me and knowing our history I dont blame you to be against me

I havent made up my mind. I think theres like a 60% chance or more youre stuck in a TvT here and that cakez and co are sitting on the sidelines fanning the flames

Strange how I agree but not with who you’re talking about.

UNVOTE: farside. Either ABR is town, and then probably right, or scum, in which case this is a really bad play. Why would scum be this aggressive pushing 1 townie? Worst case ABR is town and wrong, but then we still probably find out tonight with NKs. this is wayyyy better than any of the other wagons, and even if DC flips town, this is real progression. I don't know any of you, but im leaning towards lilith being naive and town, with farside giving intentionally bad reads. Farside is in queue for at least one other game, so doesn't currently feel overwhelmed. If play is subpar for her, its probably on purpose. Vecna flip-flop is a bit odd, and vecna does some off somewhat as tyring to sheep-without-sheeping this game. He has been reading most people the same way town~majority does, iirc. VOTE: doncorleone

How much have you played with or known ABR? You said you’re new so almost not at all I assume right? What makes you have this much blind faith in his reads? I don’t get what makes Don a good wagon here.

Lilith: if abr talks to you, maybe you can ask him why he destroyed the maria wagon.

Let us check ABR’s iso for where he defended me or told others to get off my wagon...Nope, nothing here. Just him saying he’ll vote me if Lilth asks. So uh, where is this magical opinion that ABR is ruining wagons coming from?

At what point does a player stop going from ‘Oh this player is town and has bad reads’ to ‘This player is objectively playing this way and is scum’

ABR just shoot DC.

VOTE: MariaR

This^^^^

OOOOOH

so if they lynch YOUR scumread and then shoot DC its all fine huh?

You advocating it is all fine n dandy

I should probably wait with this post to see if lilith also will jump all over this statement, but im sure that wont happen anyway

hmmmm keeping this in my iso.

[MariaR]

I might actually have to take venca off my scum list.

This too.

Crazy idea guys, ABR and DC are both town and scum are just kinda sitting back and letting this happen.

[MariaR]

Okay fire then stop using your years old meta that I've been trying to change because you're objectively wrong in how I play. I don't really care if you want to wagon me, I do care about you slandering my rep.

[MariaR]

Maria. Me or DC today? Voting is underway.

Do me a favor and step back for like an hour or something and come back. I don't think either of you or DC are scum and this is turning into a real mess with people just throwing reads and votes around to see what'll stick.

Obviously not everyone is scum for that, but we need to try and come together at least a little. It's kinda just am ess.

[MariaR]

I feel like I'm on a different planet than everyone so I'm glad we agree on that.

[MariaR]

A simple no would've been fine Fire you didn't need to be rude about it.

I feel like I'm on a different planet than everyone so I'm glad we agree on that.

Maria, why do you think ABR is town?

Local man suddenly gets run up on a wagon and decides to death tunnel 1 player thinking it'll get them townread.

What's that? Scum wouldn't do that because that's an idiotic move and they're probably town anyway? By god Jimmy get the reporters out here we have a scoop.

(Lmk if any of that didn't translate)

[MariaR]

If ABR is in fact town then it means that MariaR is right and scum is staying out of it/positioning on it to be on both sides probably. It's hard to judge ABR's pushing from my point of view because I know that he's hard pushing town (with reasons that he alludes to but doesn't provide, continuously). Chkflip has tilted me slightly, but he's probably just being an asshole. So ideally I'd like to talk to someone who is still relatively level-headed here to try and assess where the push is coming from

(Hint take a look at Farside and Vecna)

[MariaR]

Imagine thinking that I've made the game toxic for pointing out the overwhelmingly male tendency to throw fits in games until people vote the desired wagon. It's sort of acceptable when Raybells does it because of his startlingly high accuracy. But there are far too many pretenders to the throne who I think just get a rush from yelling at people on the internet.

I'm sorry this just made me laugh so hard (in a good way)
Don I have no idea who you're an alt of but I adore you that's all I wanna say

[MariaR]

I'll get to your Cakez and Abr question soon I'm finishing my lunch

[MariaR]

@Don

My Cakez townread was starting go down a little bit after our interaction with eyescott but I think the way he's dealing with ABR and the progression of his actions makes a lot of sense. Combine that with a select few people pushing him for...what reasons? Yeah I'm good with it.

ABR is in a playerlist where at least most of them know him to some extent and how he acts. I don't think scum ABR would go into the state he's in right now as a hail mary when he probably could've just stayed coasty and made it through the day. This 'DEATH TUNNEL ACT' seems too risky to me. Like, if he's scum he's actively setting up his own death rn assuming you're town (and I think you are)

[MariaR]

Oh no...

[MariaR]

Farside is 100% scum just trying to throw something at the wall and see if it sticks. I've had Lilith as scum too as you can see in my mini case as you can see. The only doubt I've had is 'does scum hard buddy that much?' But, in a playerlist with 3 mafia it doesn't seem that big a stretch.

Chk uh, I honestly forgot why I was townreading him but it was for a good reason I swear. I also don't think you should use that line of logic because if I was basing this game on 'What would be logical in this case for this player to be doing?' I'd be scumreading about half the playerlist right now.

[MariaR]

People who are wagoning Don with the mindset of 'Don got the wagon off his scum buddy Maria' but voting Dun over me are super sus because if that's the logic you're going with wouldn't I have the more important gun?

[MariaR]

Farside is 100% scum just trying to throw something at the wall and see if it sticks. I've had Lilith as scum too as you can see in my mini case as you can see. The only doubt I've had is 'does scum hard buddy that much?' But, in a playerlist with 3 mafia it doesn't seem that big a stretch.

Chk uh, I honestly forgot why I was townreading him but it was for a good reason I swear. I also don't think you should use that line of logic because if I was basing this game on 'What would be logical in this case for this player to be doing?' I'd be scumreading about half the playerlist right now.

I could lynch farside today if you wanna go there. I definitely think that in a town v town world between ABR and I (where you're town) there has to be scum in (Lilith, cakez) because one of them would want to be taking my side for the easy cred once I flip. One takes ABR's side too for cred if things reverse or we get to shoot each other tonight and both flip town.

Also for the second part, lol. I had the problem for like half the game that I had too many townreads, now I have too many scumreads.

I'd love to go farside if I think support would go there so!
VOTE: Farside

People who are wagoning Don with the mindset of 'Don got the wagon off his scum buddy Maria' but voting Dun over me are super sus because if that's the logic you're going with wouldn't I have the more important gun?

I think Fire and Lillith were the true believers of eye and Maria.

The rest -including me and farside- wanted to progress the game without believing it in our heart of hearts.

So the people voting DC are not the same wagon leaders for eye/maria.

Did fire scumread my slot before or after I came in because that's what matters. Lilith sure. If 'progressing the game' means voting w/e fits than sure. Although I don't think your points relate to mine.

[MariaR]

Don is it more likely 1 of Farside/Lilth are pocketing each other to you or that they're both scum hard buddying?

[MariaR]

Maria hasn't tried to sort anyone.
Providing irrational behavior.
I wanted to prove that Don's reads were fake in all of this. He basically calls 1 player town for exactly the same behavior lilith and myself just did but it's town for maria.

Okay let’s take a look at this.

‘Maria hasn’t tried to sort anyone’ is obviously false. I have tried to sort most players in the game, you can see that from my catch up and even more obviously in my live posting. But, what I really want to talk about is the angle Farside has taken with me. This whole entire time she’s been trying to paint a false narrative on how I’ve been acting around her. Saying I dodge questions, saying I haven’t been doing X or Y. That this isn’t an answer etc etc.

This is all false. I’ve answered her questions, I've engaged with her etc etc. What is happening here is she won’t talk any answer I give as a valid one. When you play a game like mafia that is opinion based like this, if you don’t give a ‘proper’ answer people won't be satisfied with it. So I ask, is that what farside is doing here? Just not happy with any of my answers that she’s being blissfully stubborn?

No, I think she’s purposely acting like this. People say she’s sorting but I’m pretty sure her vote has flipped to about 5 dif people in the last 2 or 3 IRL days alone. If you look at some of the people she is ‘scumreading’ it really does paint a picture on how she even got to that angle. I saw someone (I believe ABR) go ‘haha Farside is just blind’ no. I would like to think farside is not blind or stupid. Her posts show that she’s competent. There is a point where you just go ‘you’re not this stupid.’ We’ve passed that point.

The second post is a cherry pick you can clearly see the progression Don made on my slot. Also trying to group up my behavior with herself and lilith is priceless. What they did was gang up on me I tried to solve. This isn’t the best part!

He is also discreting ABR in many post about his ability to scum hunt. That ABR should be shot by him even though he is town reading ABR. Accuing ABR of tearing down the game. Did he forget there were only 3 town gun players in the game?
How is any of that protown thinking? How is that trying to actually scum hunt to win?
That is why my vote is where it is and why it hasn't moved.

This is. It’s clear Don is upset and playing with his emotions at least a little. Sure, some of it can be a bit illogical but who was the one who talked about how rational play and MS is funny. Oh wait...it was farside! If she really believed this argument it would go here or she’d at least bring it up. The reality is she just made an argument to fit the narrative at the time and left it

[MariaR]

Postscript: MariaR and firebringer — I really enjoyed playing with both of you, regardless of what alignment you ultimately are and wanted to call you both out as elements that made this game tolerable

<33333

Also at least I don’t read me as scum lmao

If you’d town that is, if you’re scum then you’re playing in a pretty shitty way but eh, scum gonna scum

at this point, even believing you we are pretty committed to listening to ABR today.

i do like those reads, although i still dont see the merit of the eyestoad/knightmare wagons.

What does this mean? Do you think we have to listen to ABR today? It's not like we're children who need to back down. Yes, Abr is being loud anyone can see that. But that doesn't mean we can't ignore the noise and focus on what we need to focus.

Yuck.

[MariaR]

Vecna/Lil

[MariaR]

Does farside normally ignore her scumreads or anything her scumreads say? Like, is that normal for her? Please let me know so I can figure out if it's worth trying to speak to her

[MariaR]

@Chkflip

the main points for why I'm scumreading Vecna are in my iso. The way he reacted to pressure when voting you compared when he put down the vote in the first place. Combine this with illogical reasoning and ways to interpret things. I don't see why I should townread him nor has anyone really gave me reasons to do so. Same goes for my other scumreads.

[MariaR]

Lilith what's making you change your mind on Farside when she was your top townread?
Also I don't suppose I'm the one who can convince you no?~

[MariaR]

The fact if Cakez is scum I have to auto die to me is like, extremely grating and annoying like, what? How does what I do = partners with Cakez. Do hope someone comes around and answers though.

[MariaR]

Do you think her confbias is a playstyle thing or that she could be doing this on purpose? To me I think she's doing it on purpose cause while she outright ignores certain scumreads (hi) she talks to others wonder why that is?

Have you read my farside case? It's in my iso near the bottom. I'd love your response to it.

[MariaR]

Hey ABR how can I get your vote off me?

[MariaR]

Disagreeing with something people say is not a scumtell.

[MariaR]

If you disagree with something I say question me on it so I can answer. Any post addressed to me I've answered. The only one I haven't is farsides newest 'case' and if she's just gonna keep ignoring me I'm not gonna give her the same respect in return.

It blows my mind that people aren't engaging with me if you 'disagree' so much. We can talk about it. The people who have? (Cakez/Chk/Don/S_S) Wow all people I tr. Shocking

[MariaR]

Disagreeing with something people say is not a scumtell.

It's scummy you're not trying to save yourself by voting sircakez or DC earlier. I had previously read your slot as town but you've done a bad job keeping on board with your antics.

You're...joking right?

We have 2 days to get a dif wagon that isn't on people I townread of course if it reaches DL I will vote cakes or DC but we're not at deadline are we.

[MariaR]

She's been doing her own thing this entire game instead of collaborating with others to scumhunt with her townreads.

Now I know you're not reading my posts because this is what I've been doing most of the game.

[MariaR]

I don't really know what to tell you then ABR besides you're just, wrong. Maybe you don't understand my game, but I suppose that's all I had to say.

[MariaR]

I don't really know what to tell you then ABR besides you're just, wrong. Maybe you don't understand my game, but I suppose that's all I had to say.

Look if you want me to take my vote to cakez you have to vote for cakez too. I don't know what else to tell you. If you want to leave it to tomorrow during a deadline scramble, that's the risk you choose to take.

It's not the vote on me that has me going eh it's more the fact you're scumreading me. I get why a certain few people are scumreading me due to either I think they're scum or they have a grudge. But I think you're town so I'd rather try to convince you otherwise. Also apparently my days are numbered anyways cause if Cakez flips scum I'm getting shot in the face so...

[MariaR]

Its again vague reasoning to hold a scum read on someone.

Look in the mirror.

[MariaR]

That's fine, that makes 2 players I can't interact with in this playerlist. That's pretty demotivating but, whatever.

[MariaR]

I've never once not once tried to start an argument with you. I've wanted to engage and talk with you because we both scumread each other and I want to deal with that because I love doing that. You misrep certain things I say. You think I'm scummy or say stuff that's wrong about you. So why can't we talk like civilized people? I don't know why that's so hard.

Who tries to start an argument? Where's the fun in that? Even if you think I'm scum who tf does that? All I've wanted to do was engage with you but you ignore me all the time because you know, you were a popular townread and sometimes in the back of my mind I go 'maybe I'm wrong let's talk with her' but no I can't even do that. I do think you're scum because the way you treat this is just ugh. I get your meta is death tunneling from what I hear but ignoring the player you death tunnel? I don't get it.

I'ma take a break from the thread I shouldn't let 2 people ruin my mood when the rest of the playerlist is fine.

[MariaR]

That's fine, that makes 2 players I can't interact with in this playerlist. That's pretty demotivating but, whatever.

I don't see pro-town motivation from you to stay alive or to join the action where it's happening, I just see someone content to sit on their vote while making empty posts that don't convince anyone or move any votes.

I think this is a playstyle clash more than anything. I like engaging people and talking to them to get a read. If someone asks me about my scumreads I’ll happily try to get them to move and I feel like I have, but I don’t like reaching out to others a lot of the time. I’m more reactive. But, I feel like I’ve even been going against that at certain degrees and tried to talk to others. Do you disagree?

If I were you Maria and I saw resistance to farside being lynched 1 day before deadline, I wouldn't waste my energy on it.

That’s fair, I thought we had 2 days not one day. I see Cakez has magically had a change of heart that makes me scum.

[MariaR]

I've never once not once tried to start an argument with you. I've wanted to engage and talk with you because we both scumread each other and I want to deal with that because I love doing that. You misrep certain things I say. You think I'm scummy or say stuff that's wrong about you. So why can't we talk like civilized people? I don't know why that's so hard.

Who tries to start an argument? Where's the fun in that? Even if you think I'm scum who tf does that? All I've wanted to do was engage with you but you ignore me all the time because you know, you were a popular townread and sometimes in the back of my mind I go 'maybe I'm wrong let's talk with her' but no I can't even do that. I do think you're scum because the way you treat this is just ugh. I get your meta is death tunneling from what I hear but ignoring the player you death tunnel? I don't get it.

I'ma take a break from the thread I shouldn't let 2 people ruin my mood when the rest of the playerlist is fine.

I tried engaging you. I got the run around response repeatedly.
Why would i want to bang my head on that again with a deadline 32 hours away?
I offered my own lynch and the only thing you did was tunnel on me and smear my name to others when i wasn't here.
Then when i come back you become catty again, so no im not going to interact with someone who is accusing me of something they are doing themselves.
I can step back and reassess this game for a town win.
That is my goal right now.
If your town vote cakez.

I haven't tried to give you a run around, I just think you're not satisfied with some of my answers or some of the things I consider answers you don't.
We've both smeared each others named and called each other scum the whole game day and obviously we both don't like that. I don't tunnel people nor do I want to. That's why I wanted to talk with you but when I feel like I kept getting shut down I just go 'welp'
If I'm getting catty please point it out and let me know so I can stop because if I am it's not on purpose. In my own eyes I've been pretty calm and logical besides a few moments of annoyance that you all know about.
If people want to scumread me cool fine that's dandy. But I'd at least like if people talked to me.
VOTE: Cakez

[MariaR]

VOTE: Maria since people want to do this and apparently this is her meta regardless of alignment and she's not spewing town to me
plus info

What meta? The only person who talked about meta with me was 2 people Don and Firebringer who both brought up points on why they think my meta makes me town and scum. But you only seem to remember the scum meta? You're also listening to the person who has a grudge on me and can't read me that they've admitted too.

hmmm Maria scum could make sense with the Don/me wagons
scum trying to get attention away from her perhaps?

Ewwwwww

Votato your push on me is hella opportunistic

And yours on me isn't?

[MariaR]

You're so caught up on meta yet you didn't comment on the whole 2 page meta talk on me? Eh, I'm dying regardless so no big deal.

[MariaR]

As tempting as it is to fake a scumread on Cakez and act like I've seen the heavens I still think he's town and this is a horrible situation regardless.

[MariaR]

In a world with farside town I think my main scumreads would be:

Lilith: I've already explained how I think some of her emotions were planned/overblown you can go back and look at the case for that so I'll leave that part out. I think her taking the sidelines during the whole ABR/Don situation was her trying to fan the flames without getting involved. Her top townread farside suddenly goes to 'yeah I could vote her' while that in and of itself isn't so bad, her reasoning is because farside is tunneling people? Something her meta is known for that Lilth already knows about. Bare in mind they were basically 2 peas in a pod at one point. This is after me and Don start putting a little heat on her as well.

Vecna: I think Vecna has had a lot of his reads flip flop with bare minimum follow up. He questions Cakez recently on why Cakez is townreading him when this is 'one of his more scummy games' Along with the fact his tone changed when he was under pressure for a vote like he was appealing to Don. He got this wrong when I talked to him, but when I corrected him he went with the same excuse of 'interpret it how you want' I can also throw in some useless shading but you get the point.

After that? I'd look in: (Firebringer/Iconeum/votato) everyone else I have some degree of reason to townread.

[MariaR]

I love that the couterwagon to Cakez has two people on it that haven't moved in ages and aren't actively participating in the discussion. I'm not scum-reading either of them, just find it funny.

I know right it feels great!

[MariaR]

I could say my Cakez townread went down but one of us are getting lynched today and if he flips scum I'm dying so that's a waste of time anyway so...yeah! I have to either hope we lynch scum and I die or Cakez is town and then?

[MariaR]

Ok fire what ruzzles your jimmies about me? Why am I a scumlord? You say you can't read me but you've had your vote on me a lot of the day.

If the answer is you just want me out of the game I will accept that

[MariaR]

Oh also I don't see why Vecna/Lil can't be a team if you can explain why they can't they'd be great

[MariaR]

Ok fire what ruzzles your jimmies about me? Why am I a scumlord? You say you can't read me but you've had your vote on me a lot of the day.

If the answer is you just want me out of the game I will accept that

ur too nice right now and ur actually trying to communicate with me rather than just dismiss me.

Never have u done that as town.

I don't believe this is town u.

I don't think the impression you have of me is nearly close to accurate

[MariaR]

Oh also I don't see why Vecna/Lil can't be a team if you can explain why they can't they'd be great

did u read their interactions because they don't look like partners from that. This isn't u we are talking about who can make great scum theatre wherever u go.

I don't think Lilith could put up good theatre with vecna.

Quote the start of it for me?

[MariaR]

I don't think the impression you have of me is nearly close to accurate

if ur gonna try to tell me my memories of ur play are wrong. maybe point out a game where u treated me like ur doing so now?

I'm not saying your wrong that town me before just goes 'you can't read me fire fk off' because that's what I used to do. I'm just trying to be nice because it's better to be nice and understanding than just 'fk you you can't read me' type of style. I thought you disliked me so I just started to ignore you until you asked me a question. I'm very self aware of how I treat you it's up to you to believe me or not.

[MariaR]

I 100% just thought you were lynching me because you disliked me kinda made me sad but I didn't want people to start going 'HAHA ATE'

[MariaR]

When is the last time we played that I treated you like the way you're thinking? It has to be ages ago right? I guess I'm wondering if you think it's that hard for me to just, play nice?
pedit: Wait no pls...

[MariaR]

okay. I guess there's not much else to say on the matter then.

[MariaR]

If you still have that opinion after looking at my recent town games I don't think I can change your mind. It isn't like this is some random thing I've just started doing. It's been like this for months and we haven't played for months. But, when this is over if this finally gets you to believe it for once I'll take the small ws
pedit: He thinks I'm scum because I'm not being a selfish player

[MariaR]

I don't believe u care about my opinion of you. So I am not falling for this trap.

I care about you slandering my rep. I don't care about your personal opinion of me.

[MariaR]

Welcome to the party!

[MariaR]

VOTE: Knight

[MariaR]

Ik I have stuff to respond to and read but family is here so it'll have to be close to DL be back later

[MariaR]

I think this depends on if you think scum would pick a rose night 1. If the answer is no outing them is counterproductive

[MariaR]

Assuming no one ccs the gun claims I just need 3 townreads. Right now I’m only confident on one. That, isn’t okay.

I wanna look back on the people who thought Cakez and Don were both scum.
pedit: Why?

[MariaR]

Oh the most pressing question I’d want everyone to give an opinion on is farside/Lilith interactions

[MariaR]

VOTE: Vecna

For now, until I go back and reread.

[MariaR]

Vecna
Lilith/Farside
Eyescott/Votaro

(Chkflip)

that's where I'm at for now

[MariaR]

Vecna is still my most solid scumread with his stances the day before and nothing has made me want to change my mind

I was going over it in my head and the way Lilth/Farside grew apart had to have either been planned in advance or it was just natural. We have 2 people who were hard budding half the game and then grew apart to 1 of them scumreading the other. Now, this can be distracting and in fact it's a classic move. However, I think the way they did it isn't SvS because it didn't turn into an auto tunnel. It got a bit defensive on Lilith's side and Aggro with farside. This is very odd SvS behavior where the only way I could see this being SvS is farside bussing Lil. But if that is the case and they're SvS? Why not just keep going for me or something like that. It's not like I was unlynchable the day before.

That leaves Votaro who has had good posts that I really like and then some that make me boggle my head. And Eyescott who has been...afk.

[MariaR]

What do you think of my on-off wagon approach?

Can you be more clear on what you're asking? More so I don't get what you're asking.

I’m also feeling mildly paranoid about you now given how easy the shift was onto Knightmare in the end and the alternative was either cakez (town) or you

The simple answer in my own mind was that scum thought I would be easier to lynch or maybe get vigged compared to Knightmare that came out of left field. But I'm not surprised, everyone who townreads me gets paranoia of me. I'm MafiaR remember

[MariaR]

FoS on you for really liking some of my posts. Im objectively bad at this game.

God if this isn't my mood everytime I flip town

[MariaR]

UNVOTE:
Something is really bothering me let me fully catch up then I'll explain

[MariaR]

Question for everyone:

Do you think a town eyescott wouldn't be getting pushed by scum right now when we're in possible mlyo?

I wanted to skim and see if anyone was trying to push him and...no one was. He was also a big wagon day 1 and it kinda just rubs me the wrong way that he's kinda just dismissed. I guess I just figured he would've been pushed harder.

[MariaR]

The gun talk is not needed. If no one is gonna cc the guns we have 3 ics leave it at that.

[MariaR]

Spoiler: VCs for me

VoteCount 1.9

eyestott [2] - Knightmare491, Something_Smart
Knightmare491 [1] - eyestott
MariaR [2] - Iconeum, Firebringer
Vecna [1] - MariaR
Albert B. Rampage [2] - DonCorleone, SirCakez
DonCorleone [5] - Albert B. Rampage, chkflip, Vecna, votato, farside22

Not Voting [1]

- lilith2013

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to be chosen.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2020-05-02 23:35:31)

VoteCount 1.11

eyestott [2] - Knightmare491, Something_Smart
Knightmare491 [1] - eyestott
MariaR [2] - Iconeum, Firebringer
Albert B. Rampage [1] - SirCakez
DonCorleone [6] - Albert B. Rampage, chkflip, Vecna, farside22, votato, DonCorleone
farside22 [1] - MariaR

Not Voting [1]

- lilith2013

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to be chosen.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2020-05-02 23:35:31)

VoteCount 1.12

eyestott [2] - Knightmare491, Something_Smart
Knightmare491 [1] - eyestott
MariaR [4] - Iconeum, Firebringer, Albert B. Rampage, SirCakez
DonCorleone [1] - Vecna
farside22 [1] - MariaR
SirCakez [4] - DonCorleone, votato, chkflip, farside22

Not Voting [1]

- lilith2013

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to be chosen.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2020-05-02 23:35:31)

VoteCount 1.13

eyestott [2] - Knightmare491, Something_Smart
Knightmare491 [1] - eyestott
MariaR [4] - Iconeum, Firebringer, Albert B. Rampage, SirCakez
DonCorleone [1] - Vecna
SirCakez [5] - DonCorleone, votato, chkflip, farside22, MariaR

Not Voting [1]

- lilith2013

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to be chosen.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2020-05-02 23:35:31)

VoteCount 1.14

eyestott [1] - Knightmare491

Knightmare491 [8] - eyestott, Something_Smart, DonCorleone, SirCakez, farside22, chkflip, lilith2013, MariaR [LYNCH]

MariaR [4] - Iconeum, Firebringer, Albert B. Rampage, Vecna
SirCakez [1] - votato

Not Voting [0]

-

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to be chosen.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2020-05-02 23:35:31)

[MariaR]

@Don my thoughts on farside is if there's scum in 1 of her and Lilith it's probably Lilith. They could both be SVS but that makes Lilth scummy regardless where as Farside has a chance of being town. I don't get why scum farside revisits her read on me when I think if it came down to it I would've died. That of course, does not help my paranoia in the thought of

'They kept Maria alive for a ml' because both the cakes wagon and mine were a shocker. Town. I won't go into a huge ideal but if you're having second thoughts about me just talk to me. You've played with me a bit I assume if you've meta'd me so you know by now everyone gets 'worried' about my slot.
pedit: How have the flips helped with your reads Vecna?

[MariaR]

I really wish Votato or Eyescott were shot last night over Cakez. This game would've felt so much easier but, no point in whining about that now.

Why do people sr my most confident townread?

[MariaR]

Chkflip is my most confident townread. (Vecna your theory!!!)

I can't say I don't think you're scum, but I was/am in a spot where you could probably convince me to vote anyone that isn't Chk. Some I just feel a lot more confident on than others. Don is saying he shot farside so rn I'm looking at Lilith/Vecna/ 1 of you/Eyescott.

[MariaR]

Yes Votato, thanks for the obvious, even though I wasnt asking you.

My point is that surviving that first night is way more important for scum.

Also, take note that scum actually had quite a good picture of what their 2 kills would pick (as in, not N1). Whether thats just lucky or they actually know the players quite well?

for example: do a dive through Farsides games and tell me if you see her getting nightkilled by scum very often.

now do the same and look if she gets killed/lynched as scum quite often.

Thatll give you an idea of what the pick might mean for allignment.

DC clearly didnt do that, but just jumped on "ROSE = TOWN" even though there very well could still be two scum with roses out there (speculation ofcourse, but I need to shade the shit that is voting me)

Do you think farside is a scum rose?

[MariaR]

The only argument I see for Vecna/Lilith not being scum together is the fact Firebringer said as much and now he's dead. Assume the team is Eyescott/Lilith/Vecna. Would they be that scared to kill Fir-wait I should stop going into NKA

NKA is trash.

[MariaR]

VOTE: Vecna

[MariaR]

VOTE: Vecna

So, you joke with me, ask me a bunch of questions, and then just replant your vote on me

Man, this game is depressing

Where should I be voting?

[MariaR]

Vecna this is the current problem I have, let us just ignore the other day because that's beating a dead horse.

Your mindset here doesn't really seem towny to me. Hell, you even stated the reason why. We don't know the spot of the game we're in we could be in auto loss could be fine could be who knows. But, you're so worried about your own lynch and own viewpoints instead of putting out your scumreads. We have 3 ics who can talk over reads and 1 that has a gun.

Giving out your scumreads right now is what we need to do and talk it over because end of the day it's 3v7 and I would like to think most of us are logical enough to relook at the game if needed. So what are these reads of yours

[MariaR]

Im surprised that you or anyone else would think I actively go about attacking our ICs though. Without a plan to back that up. Ive been constantly stuck in the mindset that scum WOULD eventually cc the gun guys, because not doing so is just not sensible. Why give everyone a 50% PoE when we have a lynch and another gunshot? Having 1 person do a proper gun claim changes the odds to hit scum to 25% in the gunpool and 33% in the rose pool. its a fucking stupid scum strategy, but they sure got me to look like a buffoon by using the suboptimal approach.

In my mind I have liked a few of your posts today, but that's more on the logic of I think if you're town here you're playing the game horribly. You'd have to misrep a ton of things and have logic that I would just...never expect to come from town you because it's so bad. It's more of a respect thing and your actions making more sense than anything else. I would flip to 1 of Votato/Eyescott if the other is vigged. Or just Lilth, but none of those are happening at the moment.

[MariaR]

I will admit the fact no one is pushing me right now makes me hella worried about my reads being wrong and I want to unvote again but none of my reads have been 'wrong' yet and I feel like I should have more confidence in my own stances because if I just flip flop people will probably push me for playing the field or something idk and I rather not deal with that. It's not that I'm so bull headed that I would tunnel, but I don't see better options showing up right now and the argument you're giving me right now doesn't help.

[MariaR]

You've played with me a bit I assume if you've meta'd me so you know by now everyone gets 'worried' about my slot.

I mean yes, true, but for good reason lol

I want you to be town really bad Maria, partly for game reasons and partly for out of game reasons, but I am worried the *wanting* you to be town is interfering with my ability to read you which, if totally honest, is pretty terrible at the best of times.

I also don’t know how applicable meta is here because I think we’ve gotten along pretty well this game which I think has only normally happened on my main when you’ve been scum, but idk if me being on an alt here just let us start from a point that wasn’t you disliking me and that meant that this is what playing with you is normally like when there’s not any prior history there

I hate this. Not you but firebringer was the same way to some degree. ‘Maria we only get along when you’re scum town you can’t be this nice!’ I know that’s not what you’re saying, but I really do wish people would see that I can just..play the game.

I understand why people have doubts about me it’s no secret I’m probably one of the better scum players on the site. But it’s so dishearting when you try your best as town just for people to turn on you because of who you are. I was so excited when farside and Lilth were pushing me as weird as that sounds. Because I was getting pushed for in game reasons and nothing over the fact I’m ‘Maria.’

I used to be pretty bull headed and idgaf as town, but I wanted to go into a more serious and normal approach like I did on my tryhard account. I wish everyone treated me like they did on my Elena account before they figured it was me. I don’t mind if you scumread me, I just hope it’s for stuff here.

[MariaR]

VOTE: Eyestott

Your move maria

Oh boy
VOTE: Eyescott

If Ico shoots votato if this flips town I'm fine with it

[MariaR]

NO

noone shoots votato

Even if eyescott is town?
Weren't you the one who agreed with me one of them has to be scum or did I take your post the wrong way?

[MariaR]

Sigh, I hate that response...

[MariaR]

Does Votato put his scum buddy at L-1? They'd have to be pretty confident in themselves or partner.

[MariaR]

NO

noone shoots votato

they can shoot me tonight if they want .

i have this awful feeling that somehow ABR is scum and a town gun fucked up.

This is scummy as hell

VOTE: Votato
Let me just give a bit of incentive

[MariaR]

In a world of Votato/Vecna town that leaves what

Chk/Eyescott/Farside/Lilth

aka probably Eyescott/Farside/Lilth? Yeah...no

[MariaR]

I can't be the only one that got hard team pings in that page of posting zzzz

[MariaR]

NO

noone shoots votato

they can shoot me tonight if they want .

i have this awful feeling that somehow ABR is scum and a town gun fucked up.

This is scummy as hell

VOTE: Votato
Let me just give a bit of incentive

incentive to what? i strongly disagree with that wagon. there are four perfectly good wagons out there. excluding vecna there are still three. im not getting on a wagon i disagree with just because at least some townies agree. if vecna and maria are scum, doesnt that mean there was only one scum on the vecna wagon?

Do you think me and Vecna are scum together or are you just throwing that out to throw it out? And if you do think me and Vecna are scum why did you unvote

[MariaR]

im really thinking its maria now. so that makes it maria vecna lilith? maybe still chk.

Okay, why is it suddenly me?

[MariaR]

I liked it when we were killing Eyescott and Votato can we go back to that?

[MariaR]

Vecna you wanna know my most glaring issue with you rn?

[MariaR]

We have
Maria Lilth farside votato Chkflip eyescott YOU

Let us remove you for obvious reasons from your pov
Maria Lilth farside votato Chkflip eyescott

Now we remove your votato tr that you've had for a bit. Now let us see what we're left with here:

Maria Lilth farside Chkflip eyescott

My issue with you is, if eyescott just started pinging you recently why haven't you been

hard

pushing Chkflip? The team isn't me farside Lilith anyone who looked at how we treated each other can gauge that interaction. Meaning 1 scum from your pov is in Chkflip/eyescott. Yet you unvote eyescott here and I haven't seen you push Chk at all?

Like, I ask for your scumreads because I wanna see where your head is at. Plus you called me scum with farside. If that's the case, why aren't you voting me? Why aren't your pushing me? Your words and your actions just don't line up to me.

[MariaR]

im too self-aware?

im trying to survive no matter what?

Anyone who calls this scummy will get my boot in a not so nice place btw

[MariaR]

so by that logic im totally clear in your eyes?

I'm using this logic in a Vecna POV with what he's said.

In my eyes I can see you and him being scum. If farside is a scum rose she isn't getting lynched today but even in another world I want Vecna dead or 1 of you/eyescott dead with the other vigged.

[MariaR]

Alright Vecna if I townread chk and you townread Votato in the world we're both town you should be fine with:
VOTE: Eyescott
this right?

[MariaR]

so by that logic im totally clear in your eyes?

I'm using this logic in a Vecna POV with what he's said.

In my eyes I can see you and him being scum. If farside is a scum rose she isn't getting lynched today but even in another world I want Vecna dead or 1 of you/eyescott dead with the other vigged.

but swap me for him. i did exactly what you said he should do from that POV. we had essentially the same POV with the same reads.

I will admit I haven't been paying as much attention to you, but you've voted Vecna and have not been calling him town. What I see from you is a 'as long as it's not me I'm okay with it!'

[MariaR]

god damn it vecna is making too much sense.

VOTE: mariar

Excuse me?

[MariaR]

I guess I should ask this before I get more votes.

What's everyone's biggest reason to scumread me?

[MariaR]

If I was playing this game like 6 months ago I'd probably be voting Vecna with no breaks.

But now I'm just trying to go with the most likely combo and that's 1 of eyescott/Votato for sure.

[MariaR]

The 5 on Vecna were farside me Lilth Eyescott Votato with Ico/ABR/Don/Chkflip off the wagon.

So do you think scum Chk doesn't hammer you Vecna?

[MariaR]

Why are you scumreading me ABR?

[MariaR]

god damn it vecna is making too much sense.

VOTE: mariar

now this i can get behind. VOTE: maria.

You only started pushing me when I was pushing your death...

[MariaR]

How the fk am I supposed to figure out who the townie is between afk lurk city who puts someone into scum bliz range vs 'Idc who dies as long as it isn't me I scumread everyone'

[MariaR]

VOTE: Votato

hmmmm

[MariaR]

Here comes eyescott suddenly out of the woodwork when I'm getting wagoned...oh boy

[MariaR]

I should've probably stuck with my gut and told people to get back on the Vecna wagon instead of trying to prove I could be gentle. zzzz

[MariaR]

ABR unvote me and stop telling Ico to vote me here.

[MariaR]

Out of those? Lilith+Farside

[MariaR]

ABR are you not gonna explain why I'm scum and just tell people to vote me? Knowing how much that just annoys me? Like, okay you scumread me that's fine but if you're not gonna explain it...

[MariaR]

I don't mind if I go down as town to scum who played a better game. I refuse to go down because ABR came in here and decided I was scum for 0 reason when my play has been fine.

[MariaR]

This is the part where I decide if I stay up to see if I defend myself (from what?) or go to bed to save myself from my rapidly building frustration.

[MariaR]

Alright that last post did it I'm going to sleep.

I leave with this question in the case that I am lynched bliz or w/e happens.

Let's assume I'm town. I feel like I've done...almost everything I could to prove it or at least explain my thoughts to point that shows I'm townie. What can I do to improve/what did I do wrong. If I'm not lynched woo fabulous but rn I'm going to bed

[MariaR]

I’m not lynched? Color me surprised.

[MariaR]

I’ll catch up after work I just wanted to see if I was alive or not. Be back in an hour.

[MariaR]

Teaching children is torture.

Well, so is this so time to catch up wooo

[MariaR]

@maria my scumread originated from your predecessor tho

That’s fine, but what about me myself? I’ve made enough posts that you should be able to read me.

Without quoting all of the reasons for Vecnas tr on Votato let me explain how the main crux of the townread is incorrect. The ‘idgaf these are my reads’ style. As someone who has used that style they’re not using it. Votato was pretty relaxed during this day phase with his ‘I could vote anyone’ style. That’s fine, because I was kinda in the same boat. But if you check, the moment his name comes out of my mouth he hit the gas and started having ‘solves’ out of left field.

How can Vecna be scum when literally anyone that could be scum just brought him to L-1? He is clearly town.

What makes it so impossible that scum could be bussing? What’s your view on the gamestate right now ABR? Because you’re acting like we auto loss if we lynch town. That could be the case, or it might not be. The thing is we have no idea and we shouldn’t let that play into our reads.

How can Vecna be scum when literally anyone that could be scum just brought him to L-1? He is clearly town.

Scum don't bus? Since when?
He is using Ad hom logic and literally is buddying you.
The writing is on the wall and not voting venca is a declaration of being his scum buddy.

Why would scum bus at mylo following you?

All the conftown are off the wagon. That tells me something.

He's being wagoned!!! There is no reason not to vote there. They can now push a mylo based on your logic.
You want to vote lilith and we can go back to this discussion that is fine, but there is no way I believe he is town. He litterally is using a false "Why would i do that as scum" BS that scum fucking do all the fucking time!
If you could see how much I'm just looking at you ABR like you have lost your mind to listen to him as he pushes Maria and me as scum.
There is obviously no way for him to come up with a good scum team because he would have to point to his own freekin scum buddies. That is how deep that shit is that he stepped in.

*grumbles*

^^^^

[MariaR]

I don’t mind if you scumread me, I just hope it’s for stuff here.

I don’t scumread you though. I actually hard, hard townread you, I’m just worried I’m wrong because it always feels shitty when I hard townread scum.

Is there like a law of mafia or something that says “the greater the townread on a player known to be good at scumplay, the greater the paranoia you will feel”?

I think that's just normal human emotion. But I'm not gonna go into full psychological theory because I could rant on that for ages. It's my major for a reason

[MariaR]

I think eyestott figures in nearly every team I have, I want him to die.

I think my biggest problem right now is I think Vecna is scum and he just needs to die but we don’t have the support for it.
Eyescott can be scum in every team and is like, never a bad choice here and Votato is showing their cards. But that team is so wacky so I have to replace one of them with Lilith. Because Votato/Vecna/Eyescott isn’t a team I think is confident enough to win the game. Because of the 2 paths scum can take.

[MariaR]

You're wrong ABR. But I'll get to you after I'm done

[MariaR]

If chkflip isn’t scum then it means that either all 3 scum committed on the push, or vecna is scum who was being double bussed

It makes a lot of sense for scum Vecna to be double bussed with how scum planned this you know this right?

Everyone knows this right? (Besides ABR)

[MariaR]

Maria, could you vote with me on eyestott please?

VOTE: Eyescott

[MariaR]

I think my current solve is (eyestott, chkflip, votato/vecna)

We may not be in mylo which we should know tomorrow if the game isn’t over, meaning we’d still have 1 mislynch left I think

I can’t get over the idea that S_S may have been killed not just because he was eminently reasonable but also because he correctly perceived that there is not necessarily a scum in (farside, Lilith, Maria)

I don't see a world where Votato/Vecna is scum and the other isn't.

[MariaR]

Let me leave this question for everyone because I thought this was obvious while I go do something.

Why did scum shoot roses over guns and not cc?

[MariaR]

Okay I'm caught up. Vecna answer my question above ty

[MariaR]

Oh for fuck sakes. I guess I mean on the pervious page!

[MariaR]

Maria, I really want to talk to you next time you’re around about wagon formations on D1 because I think my main concern regarding you being potential scum is gamestate based and I’d like to hear your thoughts on that

Go on.

[MariaR]

Let me leave this question for everyone because I thought this was obvious while I go do something.

Why did scum shoot roses over guns and not cc?

^

[MariaR]

I think the lack of cc makes sense. Am I crazy?

[MariaR]

Scum shot into roses cause they're trying to kill roses right?

If you cc a gun claim and even get a gun lynched you have a chance of dying 1/2 at night. So, I think scum are trying to bank on 1 or 2 scum to win the game with the rose wincon and get credit for bussing.

[MariaR]

It's a play that requires faith and confidence in your teammates to pull it out.

If you're going for the rose wincon ccing a gun doesn't really do you much good unless scum have 2-3 guns that are n2 but we already know they used one n1. So that just seems unlikely to me.

[MariaR]

Farside how do you like my logic here? Am I off on, etc. Because that's the only reason I see why you wouldn't cc a gun claim or shoot into guns (unless you assumed abr and don would shoot each other)

[MariaR]

Where you going for vacation friend?

[MariaR]

Hopefully will post more tomorrow I feel kinda sick atm

[MariaR]

Who the hell makes that kind of move? Well, regardless I suppose that makes it kinda obvious from my pov. Even if I didn't think this was the scumteam...like at all.

[MariaR]

Who the hell makes that kind of move? Well, regardless I suppose that makes it kinda obvious from my pov. Even if I didn't think this was the scumteam...like at all.

what kind of move? the kind where you try to keep yourself alive when youre exposed just long enough to be safe? it seems to have worked. so long as people listen to vecna and farside, we win now. and if its so obvious to you, why not vote?

I have no reason to vote when I have 3 ICs to talk to and convince I'm town. I have no idea why you picked me as the last townie alive, but I'll think it over.

[MariaR]

God I'm gonna hate this game regardless by the end of it I just know it LMFAO. I came into this just wanting to play a nice relaxing gam-you know that should've been my first clue

[MariaR]

so what youre saying is that youre waiting for lilith to get on to see if youre gonna bus one of you or if youre gonna go for the win today by lynching me. you cant really leave it to tomorrow, can you? tomorrow you lose.

I don't really care who I lynch first between the two of you. I'm excited regardless. If I had my choice? I'd probably rather face you than Lilith tomorrow. But I'll take what I can get

[MariaR]

It's an odd mix.

I'm like, excited because we're put in a spot where I can finally say I won a towngame because people townread me instead of 'we just lynched scum before we got to Maria'

but I'm gonna hate it because I'm Maria and I'm gonna have to put in a ton of effort regardless.

[MariaR]

VOTE: Lilith

That's all I need to hear I suppose. Although having to convince ABR will prove to be...yeah

[MariaR]

Still don't lynch until all the ICs talk though btw thanks.

[MariaR]

I'll argue for why its maria lilith and eatsnot, sure. maria's metagame should be a tell, no? trash town but good scum?

This isn't my meta btw <3

[MariaR]

I'll argue for why its maria lilith and eatsnot, sure. maria's metagame should be a tell, no? trash town but good scum?

This isn't my meta btw <3

What's your meta?

People try to meta read me and it never works out due to how to play this game as both town and scum.

It isn't wrong to say my scum game is better than my town game. But honestly if I was scum I doubt I would allow myself to be put in this spot? Depends on if I was scum of course. The point here is Votato suddenly brings up meta as if he's A) Played with me before B) Used that before.

[MariaR]

Like, I think if you look at this it's pretty clear a scumteam with me on it doesn't kill Vecna of all players.

I'm better at explaining why I'm town than casing others on why they're scum.

[MariaR]

So that's all you have to say about your meta? That you are better at mafia than town?

Did you not read the part where I went into detail on my meta before this? I assumed you did but I can go into more detail again if you want.

[MariaR]

Maria what night rose are you claiming?

If we were in auto loss I wouldn't be trying right now.

[MariaR]

Like, I think if you look at this it's pretty clear a scumteam with me on it doesn't kill Vecna of all players.

I'm better at explaining why I'm town than casing others on why they're scum.

I think ice took care of vecna.

Really? I assumed it was Vecna because I don't see why scum would kill Chk here. Seemed like the only one defending him was myself. *Shrug*

[MariaR]

Like, I think if you look at this it's pretty clear a scumteam with me on it doesn't kill Vecna of all players.

I'm better at explaining why I'm town than casing others on why they're scum.

That's WIFOM.

It's not wifom when you explain why your action are townier than they are scummy.
WIFOM is a dumb term anyway because anything can be 'wifom'

[MariaR]

Fair enough.

[MariaR]

Like, I think if you look at this it's pretty clear a scumteam with me on it doesn't kill Vecna of all players.

I'm better at explaining why I'm town than casing others on why they're scum.

That's WIFOM.

It's not wifom when you explain why your action are townier than they are scummy.
WIFOM is a dumb term anyway because anything can be 'wifom'

If you're smart enough to know what you would do as town, you would just do it as scum. Hence, pure WIFOM.

You being able to tell what others would do as either alignment gives us insight into how you see the game, which will in fact make you scummier or townier and influence how we see other players.

I'm a very self aware player. I can look at my own posts a lot of the time and go 'yeah this might get me townreads or scumreads'

Something I can't do as town is plan. As scum I plan out so much of my actions in the scum pt and in my head. The reason I can explain why I'm town over why I'm scum is yes in theory scum me could go on a rant and explain that 'I would never do this as scum!' But town me should be apparent from the play of others around me and my own actions. I'll let you take a look at my iso and you can tell me if my actions seemed plan. Obviously you know what I think but I can't be the judge here

[MariaR]

So both of you think I'm scum at the moment? Why

[MariaR]

The game makes a lot of sense if you think of me as town. Plus I'm not pushing anyone. I care more about proving why I'm townie than pushing. You think I care who I put a vote on as long as it's not me?

[MariaR]

LikeI've been pushing Vecna/Lilith all game Vecna now is suddenly dead. That doesn't help me.

Lilith never voted me the day before and Votato only got on me when I started saying his name. Plus he had the impression that my town meta was bad. Why wouldn't you leave me as the last one alive here
pedit: Because ABR isn't voting Votato. I'll vote either of them

[MariaR]

The game makes a lot of sense if you think of me as town. Plus I'm not pushing anyone. I care more about proving why I'm townie than pushing. You think I care who I put a vote on as long as it's not me?

You need to make a convincing case of why its the other two. All of you have the exact same goal here of painting a logical story from day 1 to now of why the other 2 are in cahoots.

Give me a day or 2 then. I didn't think this was the scumteam at all.

[MariaR]

I also lowkey think you might be spewing that you killed vecna and that's why you're upset that ABR is pushing you as scum while modelling that as the vig kill

If you think I'm stupid enough to make that kind of rookie mistake.
I just don't see why scum would shoot chk here that seems dumb to me

[MariaR]

I'm spending today trying to show why I'm town. I'll spend the other 2 looking at Lilith/Votato