Sunny 2: Rules of Im-peachment - Over!

[midwaybear]

First

[midwaybear]

BTW, the inventory mechanic has me suspecting that there is the possibility of power role distribution. I don't really have a mech plan for this, and I don't even know if my speculation is correct.
VOTE: Pink Ball
Long time no see and apparently for good reason

[midwaybear]

I hope we can all handle this little disagreement peacefully. Anyone want a peach?

Hmm, I want to townread you for saying this.

[midwaybear]

Murdercat might know, but uhh let's just go with good gut vibes for now. Definitely not a strong read by any means, but I just wanted to throw it out there.
Welcome btw

[midwaybear]

Want to talk about your vote Cheetory?

[midwaybear]

You meanieeeeeeeeeeeee >:(

Mad that you randed scum?

[midwaybear]

also is this shade that I see?

A little. I heard that you dislike rolling scum, so wanted to make a post in that direction.

[midwaybear]

btw there's one person in this game that i townread so far. does anyone wanna guess who it is?

I'm not sure, but I'd be interested in knowing who.

[midwaybear]

Sources say that midway is very scummy.

This is very questionable. Wonder why they think so.

[midwaybear]

their name rhymes with "HidMay Wear"

Cool. I'm not sure I can say the same yet though. Whenever people fake scumclaim early in the game, it makes me a bit suspicious even though this has not worked in the past.

[midwaybear]

hell yeah I've always wanted a nickname like "sources"

Feels like a fake read

[midwaybear]

This is very questionable. Wonder why they think so.

Gut.

Ok, what's your read on me(assuming you've been able to catch up).

Also, not reading Murdercat as townie anymore mostly because I'm thinking I was initially too eager. He can argue about this if he wants though.

[midwaybear]

Fine, you can be town for now

[midwaybear]

Your last post is somewhat towny though.

Why do you think that?

Votes on Cheetory right now seem forced.

[midwaybear]

Maria's entrance is unique from what I've seen before, but her vote is neutral.
It was more of Cakez voting Cheetory that seemed a bit unnatural. Cakez's vote seems like a bandwagon vote, and I don't know if his explanation (fifth fortnight) is genuine. This seems like a stretch theory now that I posted

[midwaybear]

I haven't read anything I just legit am not gonna let Cheet roll over me again

Interesting coincidence then...

alright, wanna vote a mafia with me?

VOTE: Jake The Wolfie

I don't really have a read on him because this behavior is mostly NAI for him. What pinged you?

[midwaybear]

midway and s_s are both in my pile of townleans that will be completely useless by page 7.

Can you explain your progression on me?

[midwaybear]

Hmm it seemed like all of his early posts followed the same style of general filler comments. I guess without previous experience it can look awkward, but if you scroll through some past games, he tends to do this at least early on. I feel like pressure at this point may be helpful(and it appears to have done something), but I wouldn't want to go much further than that yet.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Noraa
Come on.

[midwaybear]

I was not talking about you there.

[midwaybear]

Oh ok well I'm not feeling like doing anything currently and voting me isn't gonna change that cuz I'm mad over something rn.

Fair enough. Are you mad at something related to this game?

[midwaybear]

I can say that every vote is opportunistic for both sides. Town gets rid of a potential LHF earlier rather than later, and scum gets a free town kill.

What is alignment indicative to you

[midwaybear]

You could say something like that.
Your original answer was mostly a nonanswer. Sure town and scum both have incentive to vote you, but as you said, there sometimes is that intuition that allows you to see the difference. Simply leaving things at "yeah could be town or scum pushing me" didn't seem like much of an answer to me, so I was curious to how you scumhunt.

[midwaybear]

Jake's vote on spf implies that he was reading back on the votes of his wagon. I think I would find this slightly town indicative because reading back on his votes implies that he is trying to sort his wagon.
However, I also don't agree with almost everything he said on the ensuing page or so, but he seems to generally believe in what he is saying? Meh.

Why wouldn't you push someone because you wanted to hear more from them, instead of "Well I wanted to feel special in making a wagon!!!"

I'm really not sure where you got that spf wanted to feel special in making a wagon? Also, why do you think "concentrating momentum" on you is scummy? Do you think you were in danger of actually being asked to leave?

Why is having a trashy vote and not following up scummy for her?

In general, would you not view this as scummy?

Reading the playstyle of a player isn't meta.

Imterpreting the actions of the present with the past to scumhunt is meta.

But is that not your ultimate goal when you read the playstyle of a player?

Cheetory seems townie from 172 and 173.

but your response to SPF wasn't exactly great

What wasn't great? This feels like a safe way to pile on a wagon, and I'd like to get more from you.

I'll start reading the game seriously at page 14 until then hf friends~

This seems more in line from my past experience, but I'm also wondering why you decided to enter the way you did with the joke about peaches.

Confused as to what Spring Breeze is doing.

What they said about how they want to approach the game aligns with how I'm seeking to approach the game as town.

I can see how you would view it as townie, but I also think the general approach is pretty easily fakeable as scum? How do you feel about the spf/Jake interaction then? Do you think it's genuine from her?

But I have my reservations about that. It could be an attempt to discredit links to scum pattern from previous games.

Maybe? But I also don't think a lot of scum players would call meta bad for the reason of discrediting meta scumreads. I think the alternate theory that "meta bad" is, well, meta for him is more likely.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

felt cute, might delete later

Distancing

How can this be distancing? Your read on Gamma seems neutral from what I can see.

[midwaybear]

nvm disregard that

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Spring Breeze
Feel like Cakez and I are eye to eye on this read.

[midwaybear]

why did you vote me when I didn't have a chance to defend myself

It is site meta for people to randomly vote in the early stages of the game.

Thinking Gypyx is townie for challenging Cakez read on Zaiden.

[midwaybear]

But eventually inconsistencies will pile up right? If scum if forced to go back on their claims, die on hills or even backtrack. So it feels like a win-win, since if you force an interaction from mafia early that causes them to make a mistake that can't be retrieved

Hmm. I'm not really sure what you mean here. How are you anticipating these inconsistencies to look like? If you mean that their progressions will eventually fall apart, that could happen, but capable players tend to be able to cover their tracks on that front.

what does LHF mean? And why are LHF scummy?

LHF stands for Low Hanging Fruit which means that they generally are scumread as either alignment due to playstyle reasons.

Jake kept asking Gamma who should be killed rather than reads/why someone else should be killed. Seems less productive/helpful to me than what SPF is attempting.

Perhaps less productive, so I can see that you might think Jake is less townie than spf. Do you scumread him though? I think asking who should be killed generally leads into a conversation about why.

Would you be able to better explain/re-phrase: "I think the alternate theory that "meta bad" is, well, meta for him is more likely."

Yeah, I just meant that Cheetory might have past history of being against meta.

[midwaybear]

Noraa, when are you planning on doing things?

[midwaybear]

Why do you care? It's like page 10.

Because I don't want to mishang you for doing nothing. It's difficult to read you right now.

[midwaybear]

People are legitimately scumreading me?

[midwaybear]

@Zaiden
If by flips you mean roles being revealed, then those will happen.

If I was accused of being LHF, my first reaction would be to prove I'm actually a HHF. Not to deflect like that. Also he jumped straight to asking Gamma who should be killed to deflect attention away from himself/them. Imo this early on we should be asking who looks scummy, why are they scummy and observe further comments/replies they make. Then ask whether they should they be killed or if there are other more suspicious people. His line of logic does not follow that natural order I've just given.

Why would you expect town to immediately prove that they aren't? From my experience, Jake tends to be general LHF player, and it seems like he is aware of that so why should he try to prove himself otherwise. Also, I don't think Jake was accused of being LHF, he just straight up admitted it which is interesting.
I get your suspicion about him asking Gamma who should be killed. I think that was just a conversation starter, and not seriously with intent to kill someone.

[midwaybear]

mostly that you're painfully null compared to your postcount

Ok, so you think I am scum trying to look good by highposting then? Bad method to get a read tbh.

Noraa, if you think I am scum for "bad faith approaching you", then I think you need to reconsider that read. I just don't want you to get away with doing nothing. Sure, you might think that me accusing you of that is surface level, but at the time, you really weren't doing much.

[midwaybear]

if you were town, i'd expect you (including anyone else) to say something towny, here idk if i just can't see it, but your ISO is nullville to me

Well I'm town, so I guess you just can't see it
Can you explain what makes me scummy if my ISO is supposedly null?

[midwaybear]

you're scum cuz you're null

smh

[midwaybear]

Ask your teammates then

[midwaybear]

I'll go ahead and just say I solved half the game
Cakey/Midway

LOL

[midwaybear]

Why Jingle? I've liked what he has said so far.

[midwaybear]

Eh you can talk that out with him.
Gypyx's read on me feels pretty safe, but I've done similar things before. Don't really townread him anymore though.

[midwaybear]

they're trying to project their town game and talk about things they do as town to try and replicate that same energy than just being town.

His only game on this site seems to be a scum game though.
What seemed fake to you in 225? I poked around his reasoning earlier, but it didn't come across as scummy.

[midwaybear]

Also not overly liking Spring Breeze, but that's fine.

What do you mean by this? You don't like someone's posts, but that's just fine because ...

Thought process and the way you get to point A to B seems very...meh

I'm going to assume that you are talking about Zaiden's thought process here, and I'm going to say that I noticed that as well. I've been a bit more unsuspicious because he is relatively new.

what's pinging you about me and why is that fine?

Darn.

So I don't quite understand why there's a push against them. I've looked through their posts and haven't seen anything off.

Yeah, I don't really think my wagon will go anywhere. The longer Gypyx/Noraa votepark me, the worse it looks.

Does no one else seriously think this could be scum attempting to buddy all the girls in the lobby through the power of simping?

Err as scum yeah he tends to buddy and charm his way through games. To be honest, I am a little scared to scumread him I don't think I'm the best at reading him, but he was gut town early on for me.

I think Jake hopped onto an existing CW with the intent of diverting pressure. Or at least I think it's a possibility.

It seems like Jake hopped on spf because he found her vote the scummiest, and I think I townread the process behind that.

Heh, it seems like a lot of people have picked up on that line from PrivateI.

midway are probably the two names that i townread the most strongly right now.

Just curious, how much of this townread on me was influenced by petapan?

let me know if there's anything specific that y'all want my opinion on

What's your read on Jake now?

@spring
can I get a read on PrivateI from you?

I like this.

T^T how come im the only one that does see these scummy posts

lol are you talking about me here?

[midwaybear]

wait wtf where does that spring wagon comes from

I voted her because she made 3 contentless posts to begin with. Wondering why Zaiden decided to hop on, but probably for similar reasons.

[midwaybear]

You think Gamma was chainsaw defending spf?

[midwaybear]

But what if, get this, it was a lie?

If he wasn't looking back on his votes, then yeah it's scummy. Definitely possible that he just decided to tack on some reasons to scumread the person attacking him.

[midwaybear]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure peta has a pretty good handle on reading me which is why I asked.
I scrolled through those posts from Jake, and your points seem pretty good. Those seemed to come after your interaction yesterday, so I'm guessing you still find his reactions in the moment to be a bit muddled?

@clidd Long time no see. Excited for your thoughts

[midwaybear]

What does your take on that become once you learn that she isn't a new player?

[midwaybear]

in spite of that, i don't necessarily see his reaction as coming from a scum mindset. if anything, the messiness and inconsistency of his reaction is town indicative

BTW, I think I'm a little more cautious on Jake because of this, but I do still have him as slight town.

Murder, would be interested in hearing about your scumread on Jake.

[midwaybear]

Ah ok, tbf I was a bit worried about that too, but my experience with scumreading people who make those scumclaim type posts have been mixed.
I'm not sure if I think claiming scum is the way to act comfortable though.

[midwaybear]

I think it was more about being in a completely new environment than just the format of games.

[midwaybear]

I like the way Pink Ball is making his reads, but I also share a bit of Cakez's concern cuz it looks too easy lol.
Pink Ball, were you serious when you said that you were expecting Jingle to scumread you in 447?

[midwaybear]

I gave my thoughts, how about you justify the TR?

Yeah, you just said you thought he was lying(correct me if I'm wrong). I don't know if there's any argument to be had over that.

[midwaybear]

That wasn't really my point, my point was that I thought Jake's vote was opportunistic while under pressure and that the justification given could easily be fake. So now why do you TR there?

Hmm. I don't know if opportunistic is a thing this early. Feel like the typical scum reaction would just be to play it cool instead of making moves like he did.
With your scumread of him on mind, I'm definitely more conflicted though. I wouldn't want to disagree with you just for the sake of it.

[midwaybear]

Felt like a lot longer than 24 hours ngl

Finding Murder townie for 560. The attitude of unnecessarily advocating for yourself generally reads as townie for me, and he already did such earlier as well.
PrivateI, wondering why you felt that Spring overjustified on the Cheetory vote. 421 looked fine to me?
I am not sure what the point of 585 was. Cheetory's motivation seems pretty clear/clean, and it felt to me that Cakez overplayed a bit. Eh.

[midwaybear]

Gamma, do you have any reads?

[midwaybear]

Hot taking Gamma as town actually because his play makes little sense from a scum standpoint. Need to stew on this a bit more though.

[midwaybear]

Hot taking Gamma as town actually because his play makes little sense from a scum standpoint. Need to stew on this a bit more though.

He still has to actually do things though.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Gamma

[midwaybear]

Additionally, I honestly don't get why people are voting for Gamma.

Him posting that weird comment to Jake right after I said I was considering townreading him for doing nothing felt forced. At the very least, I would expect a town Gamma to engage with me on why he is playing like this.

[midwaybear]

I’m not really hard scumreading Gamma because his play still doesn’t make sense from a scum standpoint, but I’d still like to get inside his head for a bit and get an answer of why his approach as been this.

[midwaybear]

And it doesn't help that no one's answering my questions. I've asked like every single time and no one is fucking saying anything and I really hate it.

Yeah, so in a previous game, Pooky and Spring Breeze were masons who sorta had to find each other. They made pretty elaborate breadcrumbs similar to this in order to “find” each other. I agree that Pooky’s play has definitely been frustrating. He hasn’t posted a lot of content so far, and it does seem like people are giving him a bit of a free pass. I think what Spring Breeze has been posting as of late has been OK, but I’ll take a look back.

[midwaybear]

everyone else going off vibes from prior experience/be able to tell what player based scum slips are

Who has been doing this? I might have missed this, but I haven’t really gotten the feeling that most people are using meta to scumread others.

[midwaybear]

nancy says noraa is 100% obvtown and there is no way noraa is scum here.

koba says spf is meta-scummy for being agenda-y and trying to maintain herself above a POE.

oka poka didn't say anything.

I'm townrleaning you and I trust Nancy's read on noraa, that's the kind of 'obtown!Nancy correctly identifying town' move

I guess you could say this makes Noraa solid town , but I don't really think this means anything for Pooky's alignment.

[midwaybear]

Cakez, I'd like to know what prompted 585. Sorta felt like it came out of nowhere.
Pink Ball, were you serious when you said that Cakez's 95 was a great insight? It feels like "eh" reasoning to me.

[midwaybear]

uh no?

Hm? What do you mean? You think Pooky is town?

[midwaybear]

579 and 580

Not sure what the significance of 579 is. Cheetory calls you out for not actually engaging, so you reply with "I don't want to or need to". But why?

[midwaybear]

But I do not think someone who doesn't know the color of my role pm would think that.

Why is this?

[midwaybear]

@Noraa
Well, it was actually a semi serious/joke read based off of how Pink Ball used clidd's read on me to get a read on me.

Cool, so if clidd is town, midway is probably town, and if clidd is scum, midway is definitely town. Huge townlean on midway right now, thanks clidd!

[midwaybear]

You think scum call their buddies 100% town?

[midwaybear]

I already said that I was applying Pink Ball's read method on you here.

[midwaybear]

No you weren't.

I quoted him and used wink emoji. My intent was pretty clear.

[midwaybear]

So either case, you're more worth alive than dead at this point.

With this logic, is there anyone you think is worth more dead than alive yet?

[midwaybear]

Mmm ok. Then I think it's interesting that it seems that you think people are actually considering an elim this early on.

[midwaybear]

Everyone (except Jingle) has avoided giving their thoughts on me; I think that says a lot of my role and what I'm doing right now.

Why do you think lots of people aren't talking about Pooky then?

[midwaybear]

Fair.
Also, does anyone actually plan on using the full 14 days, or do we think we can come to a general consensus earlier? Just curious.

[midwaybear]

Just addressing a few other things.

Cakez, on the other hand, came to the game and moved quickly out of RVS with a mentality that comes only from town; a mentality based on "ok, who's scum" and genuinely not knowing the answer.

I actually think I like this point. Looking back at the early, it does seem like Cakez was proactively driving the game forward when there is generally little incentive as scum to do so. I don't think I am as confident as you on this because I

could

see scum going tryhard, but I think I like Cakez better now.

fairly sure zaiden plays like this regardless of alignment because he's from hectic/hopkirk's team and they're all fun people/it's a team gimmick. it's hard to read though because i feel like it allows him to make weird moves/reads.

I think some of the jokes/sense of humor is similar to his teammates, but the playstyle is distinctly his. In his posts, there are a lot of things that suggest someone newer to this format and that also seems to manifest in his reads.
There are some things in his overall reads that I'm looking for which I think will be useful later in determining my read on him.

[midwaybear]

Idk how long it’ll be worst-case but for now I’m just doing what I can, which ain’t much

Are you getting any reads from teammates?

[midwaybear]

Also, what prompted your jokey playstyle over these past two days?

[midwaybear]

MWB, is Dunn reading this game?

I asked him about his Maria read, but I haven't gotten anything back yet. We haven't talked about this game yet, but he might be (probably is) reading it.

[midwaybear]

Yeah, this current pace makes me think we won't need the full deadline. I'm trying to work out a pool of the people that can go today.

[midwaybear]

I don't really get how he was artificially trying to figure out how he should place his reads. I guess it's interesting to me that he calls spring's push on him questionable, but comes to the conclusion that she is null. I like your first point.

Something resounds with me there but there’s too much internal noise to feel it out exactly

There’s a marginal chance it’s something that wasn’t one of your core points but I’ll not worry bout it rn

What do these mean?

[midwaybear]

is it bad i want to townread him cause he's fun? however a lot of his reads aren't clicking for me although i'm not sure how to express this properly.

Yes, it is bad to townread him for that despite feeling more mixed his actual content

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Jake
I think Gamma is town, and I do think Jake's fixation around Gamma is scummy (I think this is what Zaiden sees?).

@Jingle I think Noraa's town play is extremely erratic and can appear pretty scummy. I have no clue if her scum game is similar to this, but these sort of wild reads are generally what I would expect.

[midwaybear]

what are the specific questions you are talking about?

Take a look at page 26. There are some things directed at you there.

[midwaybear]

would you mind selling me on gamma being town? is it just because you feel that they are playing in such a lazy/passive way that you feel would be counter-intuitive for scum to do?

Yeah, pretty much. I think he would be more engaged with this game as scum, and it makes sense that his team hasn't been able to help him out that much. I did find his motivation to vote Zaiden a bit question, and I still don't understand what 788 is supposed to mean lol. Sort of a gut read at this point though, so I don't know if I can really sell you on it.

It's not that she's being erratic, it's that she's taking stances I don't think she believes in. I agree that erratic is probably just a personality thing from the interactions we've had.

Ok, I can sort of see this. You brought this up, but, yeah, her interaction with me about the read on her was a bit ridiculous. I think her motivations for voting you might be a bit shaky, but it is somewhat understandable if she views PrivateI as a LHF and wanted to root out the bad votes. You did say that she wasn't advocating you strongly to be scum, but I think she actually might start to push in your direction soon .

[midwaybear]

Fixation, as in Gamma has been the main topic I've talked about?

Pretty much. I find that fixating on one person can be a scum strat. It's also a little worrying to me how your content has dropped off since the beginning of the game.
I didn't like your vote on Gamma last night in particular. Him being pedantic might be scummy, but him being so blatantly pedantic isn't really scummy.

[midwaybear]

What game was this?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84671

[midwaybear]

I can replace out if people think I'm actually being an asshole.

i wouldn't worry about it, i think you're doing fine

Yeah, agreed.

[midwaybear]

He wasn't just being pedantic, he dodged the question entirely. It wasn't until I rephrased the question that they answered.

It's not "fixation", I was asking Gamma a question and god damn if I didn't get an answer.

I mean yeah he was trolling you, but I still don't think that is scummy. Also, I don't think you rephrasing the question is why Gamma chose to answer, I think it was because he decided to start taking the game a bit more seriously (although his answer was weird).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you really haven't done much to move the game forward recently besides asking Gamma the same question. I get that you want an answer from him, but it would be nice if you did other things as well.

[midwaybear]

Now call me crazy, but Shellyc wasn't a Jake or Serial Surgeon.

shellyc was town, and her alt (Professor Mafia) was scum.

[midwaybear]

Why did you choose to go after me in particular?

Because I'm scared of Pooky

Your vote on Gamma wasn't great, and you were falling under the radar. Do you find me scummy for going after you?

[midwaybear]

So SFP full townreads SpringBreeze just because they feel like it and that's supposed to make total sense without any sort of justification? Wouldn't the gap in needing to explain anything therefore be meta?

I'm going to assume you are talking about MariaR here. I think the way she presented the read leaves room for the method she used. Perhaps it was a meta read, but Maria could also have found some of Spring's posts townie independent of such. It's definitely understandable that Maria hiding the reasoning doesn't sit right.

As for the lack of response over my queries on Pooky/SpringBreeze. Again, wouldn't the lack of any explaining anything be a gap that's filled in everyone else's mind by meta?

Yeah, I explained the dynamic between them earlier. Take a look at 638. This is the one example of meta being used as a read that I will acknowledge.

Apparently Gamma was scumlean to some people because of being pedantic, which again sounds like a gap that's being filled with meta. Like why must being pedantic be a scum indicative thing?

Being pedantic isn't scum indicative. Jake's vote was not a good vote for that reason.

Because I'm being asked to take things at face value which I personally just can't take at face value in the absence of any actual explanation.

Yeah, so it seems that sometimes you interpret scumreads/townreads on others as meta when it isn't really. Earlier in this game, you talked about catching scum based on inconsistencies. Can you talk more on that?

[midwaybear]

Why wouldn't you choose to go after someone who's been a little less contentful (like Clidd/Morning Tweet, for example.)

If MT follows the same pattern as you, I will definitely go after her.
Now is there a reason your content level dropped off? You have been deflecting a bit for your past few posts.

[midwaybear]

Nah, feels like LAMISS

[midwaybear]

looks like im playin team mafia after all

hello everybody (* >ω<)

Welcome

[midwaybear]

ok but if noraa actually flips green im like never going to hear the end of it until the next TM...

But why is Nancy so strongly townreading her?

I'm mostly ambivalent on this wagon.

[midwaybear]

How would you say it compares to the Zaiden wagon?

I think I like Zaiden more. I think he did have some misreps in the wall, but the ate seems real and he does seem to be solving? I do think his scumbuddies would also be giving him more support, and he wouldn't think to use his inexperience as a crutch so much.
I don't have either pegged as town yet.

[midwaybear]

I don't have either pegged as town yet.

Or scum though.

[midwaybear]

Eh. Any way you slice it I expect spicy reactions from these particular dueling wagons.

Yeah, I'm not unhappy with this by any means.

[midwaybear]

Will you guys kill me if i start quoting ancient shit? I started getting into it and commenting on things but im aware that can be annoying for the rest of the game and im not terribly sure any of it will prove useful

Yeah, go for it.

[midwaybear]

Townreading Pooky a bit more from that interaction.That seemed relatively hard to fake lol

how is going back after the fact when it's convenient to SR there town indicative?

I was assuming that he went back, looked at his votes, and independently arrived at the spf scumread. I'm not sure if this is actually what happened though even though his wording implies so.

If she is town, she is changing her meta because she really doesn't want to get miselimed and cost her team.

Heh, this seems unlikely to have happened.

[midwaybear]

why do you say that with regards to noraa?

I should probably ask what is different about her play?
Because I don't really see her current play as an effort to not get miselimed.

[midwaybear]

Imagine if Gypyx and Nora were scum buddying.
petit: 813 seemed real

[midwaybear]

It probably is real but Cheet would get salty regardless of alignment here

I don’t think he thinks of saying that as scum.

[midwaybear]

but it surely must happen once every blue moon.

People are sometimes inconsistent, and it isn’t always clear which alignment the inconsistencies come from. Real slips are pretty rare yeah.

Do you have any thoughts based off of the past few pages. Did your teammates get back anything to you?

[midwaybear]

Told you Jingle.

[midwaybear]

Told you Jingle.

?

This was a throwback to yesterday where I predicted that Noraa would start gunning for your head soon.

I think I'm going to take Pink Ball's stance on Noraa here. Mostly observational, and I don't want to take a stance yet.
I find Noraa attacking Jingle's reads to be a weird stance to be taking. Besides his scumread on you and the earlier vote on PrivateI, what is wrong about his other reads?

[midwaybear]

? AFAIK we only played together in Bus Service, what's the other one?

Betrayal Mafia maybe

[midwaybear]

Yeah, but you seem to be attacking his overall body of reads? I feel like if you think he has a messed you read on you specifically, your reaction shouldn't be this big.

[midwaybear]

Ok I broke my reasoning down. Does it make sense and stuff?

Yeah, but I think it's believable for town Jingle to be scumreading you at this point.

[midwaybear]

Confidence comes from the dumb or the informed.

hMMMMM

I love this

[midwaybear]

I think I burnt myself out a bit over these past few days.
Expect me to be more lurky these next few. I'll still be reading along.
Right now, I'm thinking there is 1-2 scum within the general LHF-y pool of {Gypyx, Noraa, Jake, Private, Zaiden}. To be honest, I'm suspicious to some extent on all of these players, but I think my suspicion is more due to their playstyles rather than anything scummy they have actually done.
It's a bit interesting to me that a majority of wagons so far have hit on these players. Perhaps it's the name of the game, but I think I'm going to start considering other players as possible candidates (I get that there still can and probably are scum in the LHF pool).
With that said, I have five relatively solid townreads right now. I like Cheetory, Gamma, Pooky, Murder, and Cakez so far. Let me know if you have any suspicions on them. Even if they are just small pings, I'd still like to hear you out because this is my town tier right now. I remember Pooky saying he thought Cakez was too confident this game in comparison to SFA.
@Pooky, do you think Cakez has used this confidence in opportunistic ways, or are you just finding the general attitude to be off putting?

[midwaybear]

I was already fine with the fact Dunn was TRing Maria

Why are you making things up?

Will catch up soon

[midwaybear]

I was coming around to a Noraa townlean, but I didn't need the self meta sob story so back to null.

@mwb - why is murder town?

Mostly for the same reasons I was townreading Gamma. He doesn't really seem to be setting himself up yet, but it also does seem like he is solving. I think Murder described himself as someone who takes time to really hit his groove, and this basically looks like it. I was also townreading him really early for some meme reasons, and I think I have mostly dropped that.
@Murder My instinct may have been right there, but I don't think it was AI.
Also, you can probably BoP Murder this game. If he doesn't start driving scum hangs or at least change his current style, then he is probably scum.

I think Noraa is more cohesive than this as town

Eh. I would hope so, but I don't really think so.

but this is enough for me to TR her as well

How is what Maria said there enough to give you a TR there?

I feel like after he literally hydra'ed with me in one of my flawless scum wins, he shouldn't be this bad at sorting me.

Why is this the only reason you have for scumreading people? First Jingle now Cakez lol.

I'm actually gonna try to read through Zaiden's megapost instead of reflexively sticking the 'town' label to it.

However Morning Tweet lays out and explain the meta reason (please do this if you're using meta because if you don't say it I can't know) that apparently Nora is sitting back and spectating which is atypical for them? And then Nora kind of reacted by getting engaged into the game, which tells me this meta read must be true

If you are talking about Morning's 891 where she talks about Noraa not being fun and happy, I don't think Noraa actually reacted to that because Morning was commenting on stuff that happened a long time ago.

I thought the Pooky/SPF interaction segment was a genuine conversation where they got to a mutual understanding and agreed to hunt scum together.

I like this take. But I would also like Pooky to do things!!

So I won't townlock SpringBreeze like they recommended because what my team told me here about 'soul masons' was a load of gibberish that made no fucking sense to me.

This seems like a genuine thought. I would definitely not townlock Kanna from Pooky's read.

Even if we set aside anything personal from yesterday I don't trust Cheetory or believe they are acting in good faith.

I feel like scum Zaiden wouldn't continue to press on Cheetory. I don't really know why, but it seems like a town tunnel.

I've read enough. Might go back to review the takes, but it seems decently good to me. Maria, why are you still scumreading this slot?
I still like my vote.

[midwaybear]

Might be conf biasing Murder as stronger town than he deserves at this point

[midwaybear]

this paragraph was also horrible. Both paragraphs with me in it were not very good. Like the reason to TR me is way too weak.

I like his effort and it seems believable.

[midwaybear]

Cheet's desire to sheep her is suspicious

I think it would be more suspicious if it was made with intent to kill. Seemed more of pressure/temporary to me which is fine.

[midwaybear]

XD ur talking to someone that's the biggest try hard as scum ... ever.

I don't think you should scumread him for his read on you being "bad". That is all.

[midwaybear]

Yeah but why go to her immediately?

She has good reads generally and he townread her. I guess if you think he read was pre-emptive than sure, but I still think it was fine.

[midwaybear]

it feels super weak considering hoppy and hectic are helping him. that's my point.

Ah ok. I think his own reasoning for townreading you are fine. Hectic and Hopkirk didn't seem to have too much input

[midwaybear]

Like Zaidan is like "Noraa is jumping around and paranoid - town"
But then Jingle is like "Noraa doesn't have a clear path of thought - scum"
its like wtf. y'all talking about the same thing and calling me two different alignments for the same thing.

Zaiden's read is more surface level in the sense that he is considering your actions. Jingle was considering the belief behind said actions.
Yeah, I can see how this is frustrating. I do think different people can read things different ways, so in terms of their alignment, it isn't too sus.

[midwaybear]

Maria's overall thread read was/is similar to how Pooky was being treated. In no ways do I think she was a consensus townread.

[midwaybear]

maria had successfully led a wagon against another player

I will acknowledge that this was a thing.

[midwaybear]

hey all, sorry for the recent inactivity, i'll be able to catchup soon

no i'm not pulling a Silent Star 3 i swear, got actual life issues lol

pedit : that ain't my scum meta lol

This feels like a town post.

[midwaybear]

Apparently jingle thought I was a pr sooo I do think this sort of heavy SRing is strange given that.

Not necessarily. This speculation could have came from his own role, or from the other people who mentioned peaches.

[midwaybear]

I don't know exactly but I would say that if jingle was thinking peaches was a crumb, he for sure would've thought I was crumbing something or another there in my RVS play.

Nvm, he probably thought you were crumbing. I guess it is possible that this push would out your role, but I don't see much value behind that. If you were a strong PR(given my suspicions, I am not really sure yet what a "strong" PR would entail), you probably wouldn't blatantly crumb like that anyways. Like even if you think you aren't a nightkill target, I think most people would subconsciously avoid letting people know about their role.
If Jingle is scum, I don't think his primary motivation is because you softed some PR and I don't think it is scummy for him to be pushing you despite your "soft".

[midwaybear]

If he thought peaches were a soft, he would've stayed away from me if town - and he clearly did think that.

Ok, why can't you be scum softing some role? There could be scum roles related to peaches, and it's possible you decided to soft it blatantly for towncred. Just saying.

[midwaybear]

this sort of destructive behavior almost never comes from scum.
apparently a way to describe it is: Its subtle. It's not show-y. It's anger. It's suicidal. It's town.

Subtle? What happened to you saying that "you would be ATEing twice as much as scum here"?

[midwaybear]

Also, I'd prefer people not to read off of emotions because that sort of shifts meta towards emotion/toxicity to determine alignment which I'd like to stay away from.

pedit: Because you're saying that this level of self destruction only comes from town, but you also said that scum you would be doing this to twice the extent. It contradicts.

[midwaybear]

I don't think Cake!Scum would actually be opportunistic or sacrifice positioning to move closer to winning.

Wasn't he suggested postgame that he should change that up? I feel like he would be more advantageous with his "confidence" as a result. Are you seeing that in his pushes?

[midwaybear]

I just don't like ATE in general. I would prefer people not to become dependent on reading others because they crossed a certain emotional line.

[midwaybear]

Scum do not ever self destruct like this.

Maybe, maybe not.

[midwaybear]

I'm not sure he's pushing anything meaningful

Who are pushing meaningful things?

[midwaybear]

what's the point of this question?

Wanted to get an idea of your townreads and what behaviors you associate with pushing the game forward.

@Zaiden Some people thought your read on Noraa was weak/scummy. I think I was sort of arguing against the scummy part. I think you're doing well.

[midwaybear]

They remained actively involved but not at the expense of preventing others from speaking up and in retrospect I think that's been good.

I do think the overall attitude is townie. I also think she could be faking it which is why my read on her is more conservative.

But I don't know if I'd have the balls to say that as scum. +townpoints

I think this really just depends on the player. I do think most people would not claim scum. I've actually had experience on both sides of this. Scum and town claim scum.

I think MWB could have been more subtle about it? If you tell someone you plan to make them slip up on something, why wouldn't they just take that into account and do the opposite?

I mean what am I supposed to say in response to Noraa here. She directly asked me if I was shading her, so I gave my honest answer. There wasn't really any room to be subtle. WRT voting her, I did vote her pretty soon after.

I'm not very keyed in on why random voting stage is important and why it's such an issue to create a wagon (since isn't a wagon just eventually happen inevitably, inexorably anyway?). But I think there's some real intent to investigate underlying motives and get some thoughts out of people.

Heh looks like you came to the conclusion yourself. I think that is mostly why RVS happens.

That was a teammate read. I can ask said teammate which post gave that impression, if you want.

I'm guessing that this came from Datisi.

I don't know if that was the line of thought S_S had

That was a teammate read. I can ask said teammate which post gave that impression, if you want.

Yes please.

I like this.

[midwaybear]

@mwb - why is murder town?

good post

Why?

[midwaybear]

I've focused on the rest of the game 'cause I already caught one scum.

Last night, you didn't seem so confident.

[midwaybear]

What gave you that impression?

You had a pool of three scum, but said that you were confident that at least one was scum. I might have misinterpreted you though. I thought you were talking about your pool in general. Was Spring the reason that you were confident in one scum?

[midwaybear]

Check out S_S for me thanks. I haven't been wrong on this read and I'm pretty sure he's a wolf again

Why?

Oh no

[midwaybear]

Datisi got back to me about the midway gut read.

Well, it's a gut read for a reason.

[midwaybear]

huh, that's a stretch read right

Uhhh sure.

[midwaybear]

So did everybody just ignore PrivateI?

[midwaybear]

So did everybody just ignore PrivateI?

They popped in and called me scum and is apparently gonna vote park there.
Yeah I saw it.
Don't know what I think about it.

I mean... he had a full catch up, so I find it interesting that there was virtual no response from anyone.

[midwaybear]

Dude was making casual quips about how he was definitely going to get mis-exed. And despite being self-professed LHF he has bit back significantly when challenged.

And this is townie because...

[midwaybear]

He doesn't seem scared of messing up; he's not playing like he has a lot to lose, and he's also not trying to placate people or dodge suspicion.

He's not even posting anymore. Look at his most recent posts and tell me how you feel about him.
I don't really think what you said means much. You can just tack those on to most LHF-style player.

[midwaybear]

So did everybody just ignore PrivateI?

what did you think about his catch-up?

It seems decent, but I'd like him to post more. There are some derpy things in there such as thinking MT and clidd are different slots.
Don't want to be pulling a Something_Smart here

And it didn't look big either because of the expand spoiler thing. I'll have a look in a bit.

This reminds me of a scum strat I pulled before.

[midwaybear]

It's not like his later actions change the significance of his earlier actions.

I don't agree with this. Many people can replicate "town" early on, but eventually break down.

[midwaybear]

Nice. My read on Jake is not super confident, but I still think he is a decent wagon. I think Something_Smart's reasons for townreading him are way too forced. A pattern I see a lot is people lower their expectations for LHF players and end up conf biasing a townread on them. I don't really find Jake's early game townie, I didn't find his answers when he interacted with me to be townie, and now he has basically gone not under but off the radar.
By the way, what prompted you to give Jake an ISO SS? Wonder if this is what you normally would do.

[midwaybear]

cake case in (expired on 2021-01-20 10:00:00)

Reminding Murder that this is a thing

[midwaybear]

I think you can even just say that Cakez is generally not that focused with his pushes this game

I think this is true. Dang I was townreading Cakez, but it was mostly because of his shade. Hmm.

[midwaybear]

also just passing by cuz i though about something, but guys pls refrain your urge to massclaim, like, it always ends up being bad for town

Nobody is talking about claiming though

[midwaybear]

Scum Pooky was very much laid-back and not controlling in TENET recently. He seems to be playing to that meta here.

Two different games. I wouldn't use meta here.

[midwaybear]

Maybe you should try secret alting

[midwaybear]

I can throw out the meta but what do you mean by two different games?

This game isn't going like TENET(hopefully), so I don't think Pooky acting like scum!him there means he is scum here. Different game situations mean that meta probably shouldn't be used (I think).

[midwaybear]

I might be tunneled on Jake.
UNVOTE:

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Jake
Actually, I will park my vote here.

[midwaybear]

mostly his appeal for someone to ask skitter to read him is ptownie imo cuz she is p good at reading for scum and I'm not sure scum!him would want that kind of scrutiny.

skitter isn't in this though. It could have been faked.

[midwaybear]

Eh Jingle doesn't seem like the guy to try to derp himself clear.

[midwaybear]

I also find it weird that you think that scum-me would go "oh, Cakez has caught me, better nitpick and argue with him, that will definitely get him to change his mind!"

Well what would you do as scum then?

[midwaybear]

But I would be genuinely doing it to understand, and not to change his mind.

Is this a viable scum strat?

[midwaybear]

How does understanding someone's accurate scumread one you lead to nobody listening to the other?

[midwaybear]

But I would be genuinely doing it to understand, and not to change his mind.

Oh I think I misinterpreted you here.

[midwaybear]

Yes, I get that know. I also don't really think you will get bored and make bad mistakes this game

[midwaybear]

Scummy post. Seems like Jingle is mad town is getting off of town.

Why can't he also be confused as to why I hopped off of a low content slot?

[midwaybear]

Why is that not his intent?

[midwaybear]

UNVOTE: lol
Talked with team about this a bit. Given my other reads, I wouldn’t be too opposed to voting Spring Breeze. I’m not going to yet.

[midwaybear]

I think Pooky's read might be a little biased.

[midwaybear]

I don't think that was emotional manipulation. It was pretty early in the game and not in response to pressure. I don't know if people are seeking to manipulate others that early on. It read more of a follow up of past game.
What do you think of her actions besides the interactions with you?

[midwaybear]

Yeah, I think his read makes sense from his perspective, but even though it makes sense, I think it is still a bit favorable.

[midwaybear]

To the person who said this game is different from TENET - how different and would it disqualify any comparison to this game?

It's a different game with different mechanics, so scum probably have an altogether different plan to approach this game. Cakez was feeling Pooky was scum for replicating some scum behaviors, but I don't think it translates well.

[midwaybear]

You can refer to the team list. Infinity 324.

[midwaybear]

Maria/Jingle/SB/Pooky?
I'm wilding out here.
How do Gypyx and SS fit into this puzzle?

Do you normally post solves D1. This feels a bit forced

[midwaybear]

This is giving me some Xenoblade Cakez vibes. I'm pretty bad at making reads in these situations, but I think I'll iso Kanna later and talk with the team.

[midwaybear]

He was scum. I was thinking more of the situation, but could be true for alignment too!

[midwaybear]

Pink Ball v Kanna

[midwaybear]

You versus Cabd. Since you didn't immediately pick up on it, then maybe this is inaccurate.

[midwaybear]

if we live in a SB!scum world, i think jake's scum equity might increase slightly

Jake has been very quiet about SB.

His posts from the past 3-4 days legit have no content whatsoever, so I don't know if that is a good point to raise in scum!SB world.
Mainly saying this because a teammate finds Jake townie from past experience.

[midwaybear]

they just posted "wtf is going on" or something along those lines and then dissapeared.

lol idk if that is a buddy reaction though

[midwaybear]

It's avoiding to take a stance and see how things resolve before jumping in

Possibly.

[midwaybear]

Does that make me crazy?

Nah, I am saying that you might be right.

[midwaybear]

Yeah, Gamma might actually just be scum here. I was originally townreading him for playing like this, but it's gotten sorta old. I know someone said that they once played with Gamma, Gamma changed his style, and Gamma was scum.

[midwaybear]

Talking about preflip associations seems unproductive, but I get that some people are playing for more.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald
I will keep my vote here until after I take a look at SB.

[midwaybear]

Gamma is just openwolving.

[midwaybear]

But we're not asking him politely to leave today, so better put your vote where it's worth.

I have my own personal reasons to want this elimination happen before the weekend comes.

If he keeps playing like this we should

[midwaybear]

Ooohh. Tinfoil is that Gamma is baiting the bait. We'll see though

[midwaybear]

This game seems to have unconventional roles, so I'm interested in what SB role is that "clears" her.

[midwaybear]

Masons with Pooky. Could you imagine?

Idk if I would even consider that clearing!
Some a somewhat related not, I remember Pooky scum fakeclaiming masons with a town player for 3-4 game days in a past game we played together.

[midwaybear]

Not even an attempt to respond to my questions. I think that settles it for me then.

Give her time

[midwaybear]

I feel like using murder's prfpc is much more confusing

Yeah, it is quite confusing.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Jake

Interesting vote.

I am still going through Spring Breeze's posting. I will say that I still don't really scumread her overall, but this could be a result of my weird mafia instinct to always be contrarian. I did take a look at some of Pink Ball's "before-inflection" points. I don't think pocketing Pooky and using teammates reads are scummy, but I do agree that her takes have felt meh.

[midwaybear]

Interesting can mean that too : )

[midwaybear]

I'd still like the claim. I do agree that things have mostly stagnated though.

[midwaybear]

Why is this changing people's minds?

[midwaybear]

also, did u crumb SB?

What is the point of asking this?

[midwaybear]

What is the point of asking this?

To know why he chose to ask that question?

[midwaybear]

cuz i felt like some kind of crumbing would be town/scum indicative

How would it be town/scum indicative?

[midwaybear]

He is trolling scum.
I still don't get why people are townreading Kanna for this. I still don't scumread her as much as others, but it's interesting that people seem like this is gamechanging stuff.

[midwaybear]

VOTE: Spring Breeze
I want to put my vote here for now.

[midwaybear]

Why is this changing people's minds?

why do you think i'm scum?

I want to keep your wagon going because I don’t find this to be that townie. That’s why I voted.