Yggdrasil - Stratum FINAL -

[Bingle]

Hah, you missed your chance to kill me. I am now unkillable.

[Bingle]

Obligatory crumb:

[Bingle]

Hello as many of you are aware I'm moving this weekend and then i won't have internet until Thursday so my access will be spotty and limited and please don't yeet me because of it. If you look at my last few games you'll see I'm not lurky as either alignment this is just a bad week for me.

Can confirm that TSQ has a temperature of above absolute 0 and thus has at least some molecular movement. Not much, sure, but some.

[Bingle]

Legitimately, I think we should leave LLD to be solved by scum. There's likely a SK which means she's probably not going to endgame and even if she is scum getting that lim is going to be a gigantic PITA. If we just assume she's town that should save me a lot of effort.

[Bingle]

MOD EVENT
> As you explore the stratum, you keep your wits about you. You proceed through the forest, cutting some blocked pathways with your weapon. You spot some wildlife in the distance, but know better to not disturb them. You all stop for a brief moment and notice an expansive lake, right in the middle of the stratum. This looks like a decent place to fish! What will you do?

(1) Fish at the pond
(2) Ignore the pond, moving on with your adventure

Please note, MOD EVENTS are randomized and chosen by random.org. They do not effect the game in any way.

I refuse to believe that you won't let me be the protagonist in our adventure, and thus would like to VOTE: Fish at the pond.

[Bingle]

Legitimately, I think we should leave LLD to be solved by scum. There's likely a SK which means she's probably not going to endgame and even if she is scum getting that lim is going to be a gigantic PITA. If we just assume she's town that should save me a lot of effort.

If we look to elim LLD in D1, it's probably not gonna be above chance no matter what.

This wasn't a D1 strategy. This is a until we flip a third party strategy. I'm saying we completely ignore the possibility that LLD is scum on the premise that there is probably someone with a gun in the game who will shoot her for us if she is.

[Bingle]

jj, unwilling to commit to me.

Time to go cry in a corner.

In other news,

VOTE: morph

Don't like the jump on Shea attitude.

[Bingle]

I have two by now-
Shining, sparkling shows of town
The ball’s in your court.

Wait, notscience is in this game? notscience still exists? HOLY SHIT. HI NOTTY!

[Bingle]

I still believe morph to be scum, and this has only intensified recently, despite putting minimal effort into this game.

[Bingle]

As a mod of a lot of large themes I will not be participating in any mass claim nonsense.

If the setup is designed well it won't do anything, and indeed as a mod when I make setups I explicitly punish for being too loose with hidden information. I'm sure cabd is going to try because that's what cabd does but I'm not participating in it.

I think this game can clearly be broken by massclaim. I have a short mission to the cafeteria and a long mission to communications, and there is absolutely no way Shea foresaw that I would post information given to me.

Oh wait, wrong game.

There's pretty much no utility to claiming aorn, but we will probably want to claim hps should we near XLO.

[Bingle]

Don't like the jump on Shea attitude.

Maybe I missed it, where exactly did we apparently do this?

You cast shade but didn't vote when shea was getting RVS wagoned.

You've just also felt really political. A "we should ignore this" on the claimed thirdparty is a pretty easy scum tactic to pivot back on.

[Bingle]

Or maybe your read is a fabulism.

Nah, just fabulous.

Also, the you not voting shea thing was only ping one. what about the you dancing around the mastina bit? Are you going to argue that either ffery or cabd would not meta dive unwnd as scum, or that scum backing off from mastina as 3p is probably what happens?

[Bingle]

You can do better than call us scum for extremely NAI behaviors.

I can. I can also poke you until you do things that are actually AI.

Also, pretty sure you know this (or at least Cabd does) but this is a public Jingle alt and I have at least a little familiarity with both of you.

[Bingle]

Is Bingle's rather singleminded focus on us alignment indicative for him?

It means I've decided to play the one at a time game and nothing more, tbh. There's a reason for it as town and there's a reason for it as scum.

[Bingle]

FireBringer ISO is like 50 posts but the meaty ones are the ones that matter.


If you can effort ONE read for me, it's that one that I want affirmed.

I don't think meaty posts are the right way to read FB, but he looks town to me.

[Bingle]

vote bingle with me Shea?

So that everyone can get immensely frustrated and I can get nightkilled, obviously.

[Bingle]

I think LLD is scum with bingle by the way and people giving her a pass a weirding me out too

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Bingle]

What have you done that is so townie?
You never responded to my question either

The full summation of my play has been softing a role really hard and poking morph. The funny part was you trying to pair me with LLD.

[Bingle]

Hypothetical as in.... doesn't exist?

Yes.

There've been a few people who endorsed scumreads on me, but MC is the only one voting me.

[Bingle]

I noticed this

So did shea and cabd, I'm pretty sure.

Mastina correctly townread me off of it, but well....

[Bingle]

VOTE: MC

btw.

[Bingle]

The flea wagon is the truest wagon of all. Don't lose faith in the one true wagon my children.

Could be convinced, tbh.

[Bingle]

what

If I'm scum why push you, is the point

Why soft push disengaged LLD while agreeing with her on the only person she's expressed a scumread on? Because now is exactly the time when you can get away with it.

[Bingle]

To look like you're solving?

[Bingle]

Just evidence by what is going on currently

You mean where not LLD called him out on it and that led to LLD looking at it more seriously?

[Bingle]

I am significantly concerned we're dealing with another "lol 2020" scumteam btw.

oh you mean "low effort big apathy all the power players are town" game?

like see: defcon?

Yeah, where scum tries nothing and is all out of ideas. Like defcon, or like 90% of scums in large themes in the past 12 months.

Why is that concerning?

[Bingle]

Frankly? What's the fun of a social deduction game if the other team rolls over and dies for you. It's a hollow victory, no?

Not really what I meant, although I see that point. I’m more looking at the player list and wondering why, given said list you’re more worried that there aren’t movers and shakers on the scum team than that there are and you aren’t seeing them.

[Bingle]

As a reply to Flea:

LLDMafia getting shot by SK.

LLDSK getting shot by Mafia.

LLDTown getting shot by hopefully both, simultaneously.

The lack of an SK makes this problematic as a longterm thing, but I was hopeful that we wouldn't have to deal with wagoning her and her getting pissed at some point.

[Bingle]

Also can someone explain to me what the fuck is an Anya

That shit is like a bag of fucking cats

I *think* she's playing up the unreadability to keep people off guard, either for manipulative or readability purposes. Given recent marathon experience, I suspect town her is highly subject to paranoia. Also, the townslip is 100% fake but I think it's likely to be town anyway.

[Bingle]

Your team will get to shoot me tonight because I am bleeding town over this thread because what is controlling perceptions to avoid being shot never heard of it that takes effort.

God I wish I were scum. Alas, I'm probably the only person in the thread you couldn't kill today.

[Bingle]

notty, who should I vote? I'm bored with voting the cat.

[Bingle]

I am experimenting with ways to limit how huge a thread gets to avoid bullshit apathy problems

If you have any setup/moderation thoughts on this I'd be happy to run a game for you to test them out. Or make Shea do it and inevitably get roped into reviewing said game.

[Bingle]

I'm a reviewer first, mod second, spectator third, and player last.

I tend to hard bias towards setup answers to site culture problems.

[Bingle]

I can't remember a Whemestar post I've read. The math checks out.

VOTE: Whemestar

[Bingle]

Because I'm trying to sort you. Why should you moving on change what my reaction to your actions is?

The concern is that you're shifting the context away from Atre/Whemestar, which are good sorting wagons. I am trying to sort whether that's coincidence or genuine.

Hm.

Why are Atre/Wheme better sorting wagons as dueling wagons than either of them and you?

[Bingle]

Sidebar-

Titus, I can vouch that what Shea is stating about Anya is true. I just came out of a large normal having the exact same issues you're currently going through with the posting. It was my first time playing with her.

Guess the hydra:

Ffery.

[Bingle]

Oh, this is an aside, but morph do you use weaponized hydra dissonance as a scumtool? I assume the answer is yes and this is not a behavior I've seen, but I want to know if you do for later.

[Bingle]

Binary. Do you intentionally create arguments about your reads as scum to appear town and avoid pushing wagons, or are you more likely to default to one person leading on reads and the other following.

The guess the hydra bit was an attempt to gauge how well I can tell the two of you apart tonally, I didn't actually look for games either of you had played with anya.

[Bingle]

@Titus: I see it differently. Arte/Wheme are largely being wagoned for the same reasons in my eyes. If another option comes around for markedly different reasons (one specific scummy behavior compared to a lack of presence/towny behavior) we can look at the way people move compared to those differences. I also don't think Shea jumping on you is designed to distract from Anya/Wheme specifically and is probably just town in general.

Who do you think is scum pressuring you? Are they doing it because Anya is scum or because Anya is LHF?

[Bingle]

Ah, thanks, both of you. So the answer is you would, but you tend to have a resonant hydra presence more often, presumably as both alignments.

[Bingle]

It looks like you are trying to build a model of our hydra play.

by asking us about our hydra play.

Well yeah. Both of you know (or at least I think you do) that there's a significant chance I get bored and double check later. Lying here is stupid, so you won't do it. So why not ask you directly instead of waiting to have the time to do the legwork?

[Bingle]

FWIW, LLD, I am sorry you got cut out of that game, and that was in no way my intention.

I also didn't actually intend to have my instaproposal be accepted as my instaproposal was immediately made with the logic of: "I'm going to yolo leave this game before endgame and am being up front about that." I did have a person picked out to propose to at the beginning of the game, because I had done literally the same thing the previous game and wanted to be prepared to do it again in case I rolled scum.

Also,

I am a friendly villager

.

[Bingle]

Yeah, I was slayers gambiting as a D1 IC because I knew I could get away with it, but there was absolutely no way we were getting AI info out of that wagon at that point.

[Bingle]

Idk how many votes you had on you but it feels like you pulled the trigger on that a little early.

I had 6, but the wagon was tainted by the unfortunate circumstances. FWIW, LLD, my apology is 100% genuine and I'm sorry I made you feel bad in that game. That was definitely not my intention, but intentions don't really fix hurts. That's about all I can say on the matter.

[Bingle]

*grumbles* My VCA

It was going to be a NAI LLD rage wagon. The VCA would've been pointless.

[Bingle]

Our vote was an actual scum read on the way you approached us and also the way you eat crackers.


And of course the bulletproof read of your soft which I misread.

I'm pretty sure you're town from the way you approached it. LLD is provisionally a townread, though I was hoping to get her to tunnel me for AI reasons not NAI ones to confirm that. I'm not townreading Shea as hard as I was hinting at, although I do think he's >rand town here. I feel less good about notty, actually.

[Bingle]

Oh, right, I should say as someone who is primarily mechanically oriented:

I endorse absolutely 0 other role claims. There may or may not be other functional aspects to my role and I will not be claiming any of them. I think it is incredibly likely that scum have alternative methods of damaging town players and as such tipping your hand on powers is real bad. I don't think that protecting me tonight is a valuable use of our resources, nor do I want any invention esque abilities. In fact, if you're town you will not target me at all for any reason.

[Bingle]

Bingles,

Xemnas sends their regards.

I'm aware. FWIW, I'm not at all proud of my play that game and that was literally the most emotionally distressing game I've ever played on site, for reasons that were largely not the fault of anyone directly involved in that game. Suffice to say I was going through a really hard time with family stuff and probably shouldn't have been playing mafia at all, but the mod was too tempting to resist.

[Bingle]

I just realized this game is being utterly dominated by Morph. LLD, and TSQ.
I'd say let the game breath a little but honestly, I've never figured out how to get the inactives to post. See this as a request to slow down so I can figure out who the scums are though.

Who would you say has been especially inactive?

[Bingle]

It is why we were asking notsci who fears us more. We were wondering if he'd tried to nerf us on night zero.

Paranoia yes-
But not so much to chance shoot
Town on N zero

Will drive back home soon
Free time for Bingle to share
His concerns re me

I don't think anyone except mastina and jjh would have a reliable read on me via play, and both of them only would because they know that I only pull shit like this when I have a specific reason to and was thus probably trying to see where I was leading. I also dislike mildly how quickly you joined my wagon despite not dropping the townread on me, which came across as trying to appease multiple groups and your callout of my and Whemestars crossvote shortly after.

It's not a particularly strong read though.

[Bingle]

It's not a particularly strong read though.

[Bingle]

You're townier than Bell. I don't see myself voting Toog this game. Bingle is pretty much always a good vote.

I understand but don't subscribe to the Chara/MC/LLD/Shea townreads. I might be biased, but I feel like MC has been a little too concerned with how he looks to other people. That's a big grain of salt, because I scumread town him in TM for literally that same reason. I think that LLD and Shea are probably town, but it's not strong yet. With that said, despite a small sample size I've actually been fairly successful at reading LLD as a spectator, so I'm not particularly worried about her. Shea... snows me. I don't think I ever don't tr shea before endgame, and even in TM I arrived at scum shea because I was hypertunneled on a townie who couldn't be scum with anyone else. In my defense, Pine did outright lie about my reads on a few occasions tactically in that game so I didn't have the agency to press, but I'm not at all confident in my ability to locktown him. I'd like to see more from Chara before I commit to a solid read on it, but so far I've liked what I've seen.

Regardless, I'm fine with leaving that group off the table for now.

Notty I just talked about, and would probably put in your orange bin or perhaps just below.

Titus is tough. Like, once upon a time I could reliably read Titus, but we haven't played together frequently in years. There are posts she makes that make me want to say "This is townTitus." but they're less frequent than they need to be for any degree of certainty. One of my priorities is going to be to try and get her engaged in the game and in an active back and forth about reads, preferably with someone like you or LLD. I remember Titus being really good at performing for an audience or pocketing someone in a back and forth, but not both simultaneously.

Flea I should probably look at again as I don't recall any strong pings. I do remember fae was scum in Among Us and I think faer scumgame was pretty strong early but fell apart after time, so that's not a priority sort for me.

Your yellow crew is probably all null to me atm and none of them would be off the lim table if I was given a compelling reason.

Farkran would probably be on the same level as Titus but with the same disclaimer as TSQ, and with the note that I have FAR less experience there.

Anya is a read I'm strategically withholding atm. The rest of the players I haven't even really attempted to sort.

[Bingle]

I will say I understand and am fine with the reasoning behind three of the four leading wagons (one of which is about to finish dissolving).

[Bingle]

The key to reading me is I'm actually really bad at town so if my reads are bad it means I'm probably town but if i end up on the tail end of some scum wagons I'm probably scum.

The key to reading me is to wait for the mod to tell you that I'm town. If that happens, I'm town 100% of the time. I would even go so far as to say that being modconfirmed is a trusttell of mine as I have never been modconfirmed as town as scum. Unfortunately, I don't do it every town game.

This has been snark with Bingle.

[Bingle]

The conversation about debuffing morph isn't particularly helpful.

I can see reasons it could have come from town. I can see reasons it likely came from scum. I think the most likely case is that it's a factional scum ability.

If it came from town, it's likely best they stay silent. If it came from scum, they're almost certainly going to stay silent. Either way it's a distraction we can't really use to get reliable reads today. Best to use it as a "Well this is a thing that happened" and move on.

[Bingle]

Bingle’s scum obv

Pocket attempt noted and accepted.

notty is off the table today.

[Bingle]

I uh... Let this fall by the wayside the last two days. I promise I will read the game again start to finish to give all of the insight I can, but I don't think "sheep Bingle" has ever or will ever be the best D1 strategy. I fully understand I might have to throw my weight onto something strongly to get a wagon to claim space without running into deadline though, so I'll probably endorse something as my choice tomorrow after I read. If anyone has questions or wants me to pay special attention to something, feel free to bold an @ at me with a post number.

Solely from looking at the last VC, I'm surprised that Ircher doesn't have more votes. I don't truly dislike any of the wagons, but neither Wheme nor Sigmund have particularly promising composition. N_M wagon is pretty alright from page 50 reads, wouldn't mind seeing more MC pressure in the future but that's probably not something we have time for today.

[Bingle]

^I endorse the sentiment.

[Bingle]

I could vote murdercat or savethedragon for reasons

Also i dislike all the not mafia mechanics in place. If the mod did not lie, and the event does not make sense, i think the most likely explanation is that it's a player made event, i.e. if anyone has a power like "day power: spend 2 sp, create a fake event in game" they could have made this

And it's not useful in any way that i could think of, so my opinion on it is that it's trolling at best, scumfueled at worst.

If scum flips with the ability to make fake events, Farkran is locktown imo. This is the kind of thing that looks like it could be TMI, but is actually a reasonable logical conclusion that scum would be too afraid is going to be called TMI to post.

[Bingle]

You need an ass that looks like it was carved out of a block of solid marble by Michelangelo himself.

Please stop throwing donkeys into vats of white paint.

[Bingle]

Townreads

23. Bingle

2. Dunnstral - 331 feels distinctly not scum, very active/protown for a Dunn game.

4. White Fire (Shiro/Firebringer)
20. Thestatusquo
5. Lady Lambdadelta

9. Titus
22. Farkran

15. Anya - Towny overall, but strong pockety vibes. Made less worrisome because pockety vibes started before IC reveal, but I was softing pretty hard.
1. Morph the Cat (fferyllt/Cabd) - ^same, slightly stronger incentive to try pocketing me b/c experience with me.

14. notscience
17. Toogeloo

---

Explicitly not townreads

10. Bell
12. NDMath
18. Flea the Magician
13. WhemeStar - Would be lowered by one tier, but circumstantially was the subject of a shit wagon.

19. Chara - Actually really didn't like it's interactions with Shea and FB early game on reread. Has been towny-er since, but definitely not ubertown.
21. MURDERCAT - Hasn't left an impression, easy stances. Absolutely needs pressure when we're not close to a deadline.
24. Something_Smart - ^

---

Would consider limmable today:

16. Guillotina
8. Sigmund
3. Save the Dragons

7. Artemiana
6. Ircher - mostly lack of presence and a really bad ISO from JJH.

VOTE: Ircher

[Bingle]

Does Anya have a notable preference on alignment? She seems very comfortable/relaxed this game and is probably only scum if she likes being scum or has a really strong team.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Artemiana

Bungle I think ur read on bingle is way off and ur probably pocketed

Oh, shit you're right, that reads list is upside down.

[Bingle]

Look, you can be inno child all you want but if you are gonna put me in the PoE today along with Sigmund, you are gonna have to explain to me in what world I catch my teammate's TMI early D1 and push for his yeet all day.

Because I think there are possibilities that both you and Sigmund are both scum and thus are in my 12 person PoE for a 6 person scumteam? That list has absolutely nothing to do with partner solving, just individual reads. And, FWIW, the tiers are themselves roughly ordered internally.

I'd honestly be shocked if I wasn't erroneously reading someone as town.

[Bingle]

I think it's time for spay and I to drop THE THING.

[Bingle]

Yah, Bingle was confirmed town but it does not mean he is guaranteed to have good reads, you can't put me and my scumread together for elimination, that is outrageously ridiculous, read the game again Bingle.

Again, not S/S does not mean not individually scummy. If there's a specific post range I should look at that you think solves your alignment strongly I can take a look after I go eat for the first time in 36 hours, though.

[Bingle]

I think it's time for spay and I to drop THE THING.

Not a crumb, btw, just a meme.

[Bingle]

YOU ARE PLACING ME IN YOUR POE LIST ALONG WITH MY SCUMREAD!

Again: My PoE list is literally more than half the game. My limmable list is also not a particularly solid "ALL SCUMS ARE IN THIS LIST!"

The reason you're below the "Would consider limmable" line while others are in the "explicitly not townreads" isn't really a function of reads, but rather utility. If we lim MC, for example, and he flips town I get fuckall from that revelation. If we lim MC and he flips scum I get fuckall from that revelation. (Not really, but I get a lot less and that's the point.) Frankly the fact that you're trying to 1v1 Mr. Freud is why I think your lim is more potentially valuable than say Wheme.

[Bingle]

I thought there were a couple things it could have been. IC wasn't on that list.

The point wasn't that I was softing IC, but rather that I was softing a role and thus a higher pocket priority than someone who wasn't softing a role. And I'd wager anyone who was reading the thread realized I was softing

something

.

[Bingle]

Would consider limmable today:

16. Guillotina
8. Sigmund
3. Save the Dragons

7. Artemiana
6. Ircher - mostly lack of presence and a really bad ISO from JJH.

VOTE: Ircher

Perhaps there is a misinterpretation issue.

To me, only this segment is what I consider your PoE, which implies process of elimination list. The entire list I would just call it your readlist.

That is the segment of people I would consider voting to eliminate in the roughly 3 days we have left of the dayphase. Of those 5 you are the one I think is least likely to flip scum. The bottom two tiers are both groups of people I would be unsurprised to see flip scum, but the middle tier is difficult to quantify in relation to the bottom tier as the concerns in reading them are very different. If I were to label the group you were in individually it would be "Maybe scum? Interested to see how people react." while the bottom group of the middle tier would be "Maybe scum? Needs to be beaten with a stick to see if alignment indicative posts fall out." and the top tier of the middle list would be "Fuck if I know."

With that said, your indignation has come across as fairly town and I'd probably put a line break between you and Sigmund now, although I still think you're completely on the table as an elimination.

[Bingle]

I have a lot of disagreement with this, mostly in the "explicitly not town reads" section and obviously my thoughts about titus I've said a lot.

But I have pretty close to the exact same lim pool at the bottom.

I was aware of this when I posted the list, and also this is a large portion of the reason that you're as high on the list as you are, FWIW.

[Bingle]

Do you think townies would just target someone to harm them without any information whatsoever during N0?

Yes.

In fact, had I been given the role "You may do x damage to a player at night." I would have probably used it on N0 as town, simply because town knowing roles like that exist is + value and I would explicitly not want to claim, although I probably wouldn't have targeted morph. I may also have chosen to not use the ability but claim it had been done to me. All this is assuming both that I didn't have another ability to use that precluded it's use and that my ability didn't come with some special caveat like "you do x damage to a person and then they heal X+2 at the beginning of the following night" or "You do x damage to a person if they're town" or "You do x damage to a person and then learn their alignment" all of which are plausible explanations for why morph might have been targeted specifically.

I truly do think that exploring the X damage to morph angle today is pretty bleh.

[Bingle]

How so?

Well for one that's literally what I did with the middle tier of my reads list:

"I think these people could maybe flip scum but I'm not really interested in limming them today."

[Bingle]

I stopped at "Yes"

That crap is outright game throwing.

It's < vigging N0, which was a pretty large point of contention on whether you should do it around the time I joined ms.

[Bingle]

Oh, right, that reminds me I wanted to

VOTE: zoraster

to check a thing.

[Bingle]

Shea, jingle, Guillo

Top three players that should be debuffed

You, uh, realize I'm an IC right?

[Bingle]

I don't think I have enough information to want to direct a debuffer onto anyone, because either I don't know the hypothetical nuances of the role or because I'm going to target how I want to.

[Bingle]

Bingle is probably right here

I don't think this is a right/wrong answer, FWIW. Holstering what is possibly a neg utility role on N0 is entirely reasonable. The whole point of the post was that yes, there is a world where that action came from town who is not claiming it.

[Bingle]

Who do you think is scum, smart? Not asking for a solid "BURNITWITHFIRE" read, but if you had to pick a name which one would it be?

[Bingle]

That justification does not jive with my understanding of how you play as town in literally any way.

FWIW, I have a townread on Titus because this is my understanding of Titus' gameplay:

Titus as town is erratic. She's unafraid to do anything she thinks will help town win and I can't reliably tell what that is because we don't particularly agree on what will help town win all the time, but she fairly consistently is unafraid to ask questions and poke bees nests with sticks and wagon hop in the interest of looking for reads.

Titus as scum is erratic. She's unafraid because she knows that her townmeta is erratic so she has a large buffer of "Nah, that's just Titus" that she can fall back on if she gets called out for a shit push. With that said, she's also canny enough to know exactly what her play looks like to other people and will 100% capitalize on that.

I haven't seen any indications that Titus is trying to make pushes I think are specifically strong for scum, fake being in a tunnel, pocket anyone, or manipulate the thread into townreading her, so I think she is more likely town.

[Bingle]

Bingle is probably right here

I don't think this is a right/wrong answer, FWIW. Holstering what is possibly a neg utility role on N0 is entirely reasonable. The whole point of the post was that yes, there is a world where that action came from town who is not claiming it.

Spicier: It wasn't HP, and was outright a negative action.

That was the second most likely thing FMPOV (the it not being an HP thing). The most likely was that you were actually claiming an ability you had to see if anyone had a weird jump on to it as a "THAT'S DEFINITELY SCUM" or "THAT'S DEFINITELY TOWN".

[Bingle]

The admission of lack of scumreads is disappointing, but I prefer it to arbitrary reads, smart.

[Bingle]

Spicy as fuck.

[Bingle]

*rummages for popcorn*

Machines being serviced, it got used too much.

Faduq did I miss? and is it as spicy as it appears?

Morph has an improbable inno on Artem and all of this inane banter was actually important to confirming that it was an inno. Artem just went from the bottom of my list to above dunn, and morph is a stronger townread.

[Bingle]

Is Artemiana conftown, then?

There are worlds where I could explain Artemiana scum without mod bastardry being required, but basically if morph is town Arte is town.

[Bingle]

Let me know if your actual read on someone differs and I'll post an update.

Guillotina would be yellow, Smart and MC red, Wheme has a big asterisk.

[Bingle]

you really think its possible the last 10 pages come from scum!guillotina?

Yes. I think Guillotina absolutely thinks he's right here. There is the possibility that he thinks he is right, he thinks this is what town Guillotina would post, and he is still scum.

[Bingle]

had a really shitty weekend

Not allowed. I demand you have a great weekend to make up for it.

[Bingle]

I do not want morph to full claim

Agreed. They've already claimed all of the salient points.

They were immune to scum actions effecting stats on N0. They took damage to their SP N0. Artem softed this. Artem doubled down on the soft.

The resulting information is that the weird bits of their play recently have an explanation and Artem can virtually only be scum if morph is scum (or somehow we get info that scum knew morph was scumimmune AND someone CC's the damage to morph).

Morph is town by play anyway.

[Bingle]

I think you're wrong about that.

Point 1. That's a good thing, I don't think my reads should be sheeped.
Point 2. Flavor Leaf's Scumgame.

[Bingle]

Sure, but this isn't talking about strength, this is talking about style. FL's game is built around a core of never arguing from a position where he thinks he's wrong, which is relatively easy to pull off if you're an ego player. His strength is in knowing when to back down, wanting to win really badly, and how to manipulate people into doing his dirty work.

I could be wrong and paranoid, but I don't think anything Guillotina has done is clearing, because I think regardless of alignment Guillotina has been arguing things he believes to be true. I don't think Guillotina stepping to the bat against me is clearing because I think scum Guillotina absolutely believes he wins that fight. I don't think any of the plays he's made aren't adequately explained by "Guillotina genuinely believes himself to be right here".

[Bingle]

When was this made clear?

Morph claimed they were debuffed like 50 pages ago, song and dance, Artemnisia is town if morph is town.

[Bingle]

i'm not sure i would be comparing Guillotina's potential scumplay to a scum FL situation.

It's not a question of quality, but of style. And I think there is absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that Guillotina is someone who enjoys being right and is convinced he's right.

I just don't think that any of his behavior isn't explained by the sentiment "Look how good I am at mafia." and I think that Guillotina has that same sentiment as either alignment. I'm not saying he is FL or anything, just that that core aspect of their play style is the same and thus the things that are particularly NAI for FL are more likely to be NAI for Guillotina.

[Bingle]

Ircher remains a fine wagon, for those looking to join a wagon.

[Bingle]

You know, if you weren't confirmed town, these are horrible reasons to scum read me. jjh was flat out not here; maybe he joined but couldn't keep up. It happens hence why jjh got replaced. As for my lack of presence, I've already explained why I'm reading at a lower rate, and you should know that I generally post/catch up at a lower rate. I admit that I basically prodged yesterday, but I really didn't feel like reading then.

Disregarding entirely the NAI and possibly rule breaking conversation of why jjh repped out, there is nothing in his ISO to suggest he wasn't here or that he was struggling to keep up. I'm aware that you can't possibly defend against "Person previously in the slot was scummy", but the shade on "The content of these posts is scummy" as "He couldn't keep up" is noted when jj posted 14 times in an hour and a half and then repped out 4 hours later.

[Bingle]

Ircher [4]: Chara, Bingle, Anya, Thestatusquo, Titus

@mod: Is this accurate?

It is now. I apologize for any errors. Thank you for pointing them out to me.

[Bingle]

Bingle is about the closest to vanilla this game is gonna get.

Interesting assumption.

[Bingle]

In your own words “ Sigmund you are FAR from the towniest town in this game”. You are saying that he is town but not as townie than others.

Wait, what?

You realize that Flea is responding to a post where Sigmund used that exact phrase to describe himself right?

In other news:

VOTE: Sigmund

Apparently he believed this was a slip in confirming himself but didn't vote Flea over it until pages later. Sounds like scum letting a really dumb T/T happen to me tbh.

[Bingle]

it puts me on a townie chart and says I'm not near the top.

the TMI is that I'm on the townie chart.

a non-tmi response would be to call me a scumbag

Yeah, it didn't do this at all. It responded directly to a post where you called yourself the towniest town to ever town.

Full progression, for context:

4. nah cuz you're literally scumreading the towniest townie in this game.

Sigmund you are FAR from the towniest town in this game. we have many holding that title above you.

whatever i'm still a townie

Sigmund you are FAR from the towniest town in this game. we have many holding that title above you.

VOTE: Flea

Explain why he is not the towniest town Flea?

Notice that this is less than ten posts in 6 minutes.

[Bingle]

Votecount 1.10

Adventurers

:

Flea the Magician [8]: Dunnstral, White Fire, Guillotina, Sigmund, morph the cat Bell Chara, Thestatusquo,
Sigmund [6]: Save the Dragons, Flea the Magician, NDMath, MURDERCAT Artemiana, Bingle,
Ircher [3]: Anya, Titus WhemeStar
Save the Dragons [2]: Toogeloo, Farkran,
Anya [2]: Ircher Lady Lambdadelta
MURDERCAT [1]: notscience

Not Voting [1]: Not_Mafia Something_Smart

Please let me know if you see errors and I'll do my utmost to fix

With 23 alive it takes 13 to eliminate. Stratum 1 ends in (expired on 2021-06-04 22:25:25).

[Bingle]

^Updated, btw.

[Bingle]

I haven't played with Flea, but I have semi-watched a few games, notably some recent funky idea games. My spectator impression of Flea's town game is that faers posts become less ~empty~ as the game advances. Here, they are arguably getting MORE empty as this day has advanced.

I agree based on Among Us that flea starts strong as scum and loses steam, but I don't really see faer loss of steam here, tbh.

[Bingle]

uhhhh, Bingle voted Ircher. where is Bingle? Bingle come in here and get the wagons going in the right direction, this ain't my job lmao.

Gross AF, but fine.

tl;dr: None of Ircher's posts seem town. jjh's 49, 50, 71, 72, and 99 are all actively scummy. Ircher tried to wave that off with "jjh not being around is null because he didn't have time to play" when that was A: not the point of the read and B: actually probably not the case. (JJH's rep out is 100% NAI FMPOV).

It's not a strong case. It's actually a pretty shit one, tbh. But in lieu of strong lim options I think it's a fine wagon.

[Bingle]

Bingle, what about Anya?

I vaguely remember her buddying me, which she did as town in a few marathons, but that's incredibly NAI because said marathons were literally concurrent with the buddying. Can't rightly recall anything else she's done all game. She was firmly in my don't really want to lim because I don't know what that means about literally anyone else.

If you build the wagon, I'll jump ship to it over no lim, but I think either way the Siggy lim gives us more to go on.

[Bingle]

Apparently he believed this was a slip in confirming himself but didn't vote Flea over it until pages later. Sounds like scum letting a really dumb T/T happen to me tbh.

oh no

I forgot to vote flea right away and instead voted flea 1 hour later

what a massive massive scum slip bingle

Why is responding to you using your own words a slip?

[Bingle]

VOTE: morph the cat

I don't entirely disagree with the sentiment, but I don't think it's happening today.

[Bingle]

I feel you friend. I've taken to "Yeet" or "Eliminate" as best as I can.

As time goes by it's easier and easier to remember. I definitely almost posted the OP for a game without term replacing not long ago because I was copying an old setup and it slipped my mind, though. Best thing to do with slip ups is own it and move on.

[Bingle]

It's kind of weird that people are willing to sheep my weak case on Ircher based on it being where I was voting now that I've moved on to pushing Sigmund who has more votes, tbh.

[Bingle]

@Sigmund:

Full progression, for context:

In post 2204, Sigmund wrote:
4. nah cuz you're literally scumreading the

towniest townie

in this game.

In post 2206, Flea The Magician wrote:
Sigmund you are FAR from the towniest town in this game. we have many holding that title above you.

In post 2207, Sigmund wrote:
whatever i'm still a townie
In post 2210, Guillotina wrote:
In post 2206, Flea The Magician wrote:
Sigmund you are FAR from the towniest town in this game. we have many holding that title above you.


VOTE: Flea

Explain why he is not the towniest town Flea?


Notice that this is less than ten posts in 6 minutes.

[Bingle]

is there a question in there?

Why is repeating your own words back at you a slip?

Why do you suddenly trust Guillotina's reads when the beginning of said slip was you literally mocking him over "scum reading the towniest townie"?

Why don't I think you genuinely attempted to suss out whether Flea was scumslipping given that you apparently missed that entire bit of context?

Why is it scummy that you would be hiding behind "But G thinks Flea TMI'd on me" as a reason to be townread?

Take your pick.

[Bingle]

1. It inherently doesn't though. It says, quite simply, that your claim to be the towniest town in the thread is wrong.
2 and 3 have a bit of obvious dissonance, in that you had to think about what the sequence of events was and also didn't consider that Flea was simply responding to the statement "I am A" with the statement "You are not A." I don't think spending an hour thinking about that and then missing it entirely is likely.
4. It's a rhetorical question designed to point out that there is a very clear scum motivation in letting the conversation die out a little bit and then bringing up "Hey, everyone, Player A said Player B scumslipped by calling me town!" It introduces the thought that you're town into people's minds, gets people to scumread Flea (who is almost certainly not your scumbuddy atp), and makes G look bad on a Flea townflip. You know, G, the guy who has been pushing you as scum since forever ago?

[Bingle]

I think that regardless of the vote count though, Ircher, Sigmund, and Flea all might need to claim.

I think that given what I know of the setup and given what I know of unwnd, forcing claims might be a useless rabbit hole to traverse. I'd be comfortable treating this game entirely like a smalltown, where we just ignore roleclaims.

[Bingle]

New Page +

[Bingle]

tmi still isn't real but it is very amusing that the one person who has been harping on tmi the whole time just did the thing closest to real tmi thats happened in this game.

but tmi still isnt real.

Get out of my head.

[Bingle]

JEI - Essential for modded minecraft.

As town, I use NEI instead of JEI. Clearly this is a slip.

[Bingle]

I dont want to hit you for TMI. I think what you didn't isn't TMI. Because TMI isn't real.

I have a long history of holding this opinion.

I have seen actual cases of TMI. As a mod and from dead threads. I once had a scum partner legitimately TMI and get caught for it on D2 in an oops all neighborhoods setup.

Literally nothing in this thread is best explained as TMI. FWIW, I also strongly believe that the scum team has a discord channel for private communication.

I also think the recent lovers game SS and I were in is pretty solid proof of SS being willing to effort harder when poked as town.

[Bingle]

Pretty sure jingle and I had a conversation almost identical to this one in the dead/spectator thread for among us.

Pretty much yeah. My position is that while it does happen it’s so rare as to be negligible.

[Bingle]

Mine is more extreme than that in the sense that I think TMI is almost never distinguishable from townies just saying words bad which happens literally all the time.

The scum mate tmi-ing I referenced was him talking about a cypher the cop pt our flipped buddy had leaked to us when it wasn’t in the main thread, so yeah, extraordinary circumstances but it can happen.

[Bingle]

What’s the list of people who’ve echoed my sentiments that they’d jump to Anya if the wagon grew? It feels like a lot but I can’t remember names rn

[Bingle]

My problem with Flea is that she said it with a tone of certainty, Flea acknowledged and confirmed that Sigmund with her mocking tone “You are not the towniest TOWN”.

Hey, G. If I tell someone that they’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer am I implying that they’re a sharp knife or literally the opposite?

[Bingle]

I think morph has a disproportionate amount of control over the thread for doing comparatively duck all, tbh.

[Bingle]

Okay. And if someone tells me they’re president Biden and I reply that they’re not president Biden am I confirming that they’re a Biden?

[Bingle]

That you think this is your own failing, not mine~

You've been in the wings for a lot of interactions, but your primary contribution was conftowning Arty. I'm not complaining that you haven't done enough (you have) or attempting to insinuate that you're not likely town. I'm remarking that it's strange that you have more control over the game state than both conftown combined when objectively that should not be the case.

[Bingle]

Sigmund: I'm am the most honest president of all presidents now

Flea (who is not supposed to know he is a president): What? You are not the most honest president of all presidents now.

That's kind of my point. Flea responded to a specific claim with a denial of that specific claim. You're reacting as if the sentences had been

Sigmund: I'm am the most honest person

Flea (who is not supposed to know he is a president): What? You are not the most honest president

There's a very clear difference between the two cases. The case that ACTUALLY HAPPENED was someone using the exact phrasing of a claim to deny said claim.

[Bingle]

My problem with Flea is that she said it with a tone of certainty, Flea acknowledged and confirmed that Sigmund with her mocking tone “You are not the towniest TOWN”.

Hey, G. If I tell someone that they’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer am I implying that they’re a sharp knife or literally the opposite?

I apologize for this, btw. It was unnecessarily snarky and intended to point out how dumb I think your argument was, and it is definitely if not insulting than at least implies an insult. I don't think you're an idiot, just wrong.

[Bingle]

I do not think continuing to argue the point helps anything.

I think continuing to argue the point has the capacity to make Guillotina stop confbiasing a bad read and that given I think Guillotina is town that is valuable to me. I also think that Sigmund is scum encouraging G's bad read here, and will continue pointing that out.


Guillotina, this is a similar engagement I had with scum in a just finished game. I was town. Multiple people, including conftown, have told you that the phrasing Flea used is objectively neutral on the alignment of Sigmund given specifically that they themselves would use that phrasing. Either they are all lying, including the conftown, or there is a set of the population (which appears to be everyone except you from where I sit) who WOULD use that phrase to convey that specific meaning.

As far as pushback on the Sigmund wagon, I believe that is literally just morph, who has not really explained why.

[Bingle]

Did Anya ever claim

No, and also who cares?

[Bingle]

should I claim here?

FWIW, I'm about as ambivalent to you claiming as Anya claiming, and for roughly the same reasons. With the setup as is and two D1 clears I don't see any clears I'd be willing to derail a wagon over and this day really just needs to end in an elimination.

Cases as I see them:

The 'case' on siggy is that I think he was disingenuous about the whole G/Flea slip conversation in a scum indicative way and nothing he's done elsewise looks remotely town to me. Also I think people were saying this looks like pooky's scumgame, which is... :/ The 'case' on Anya is that nothing she's done has looked remotely town and she buddied up to me, although I think that's more NAI than outright scummy. Neither is a case so much as a "Maybe this is scum?" Also, LLD is very convinced Anya's scum. Both are being defended for meta reasons, but neither particularly well. Getting an actual wagon going on anyone has been drawing blood from a stone this entire game though and we 100% need a flip.

[Bingle]

I mean it was obviously the snark one.

And who is that?

Yes.

I was unaware you were both who alts.

[Bingle]

I love when this happens? I love forcing players to have to make a choice between dueling wagons.

So much info.

Not only that. We also have morph defending one wagon and Shea the other. I’m actually really fine with this eod, although I wish it had happened far earlier.

[Bingle]

I guess just claim and then I can call it the towniest townclaim that ever towned (Hi TMI HATERZ) and move on to saying it's a terribad wagon again.

Ok, so who posted here because i need to know.

I’d give a 60/40 split can’t/fiery

I’m leaving those autocorrects. Those are your names now.

[Bingle]

Did anya ever claim.

Or are we still waiting on that.

No and no.

She didn’t claim and it’s not worth waiting on.

[Bingle]

Yes, but jingle knows us quite a bit.

I'd say I know ffery pretty well, but cabd and I have a remarkably small level of interaction overall for our similar site presences. And ffery can get snarky when she wants to, as evidenced by the entirety of the mod smack talk from TM18.

Agreed that irch and SS both look bad here.

Is there any issue taken if I just hammer Anya here, or are we waiting for something specific?

[Bingle]

Sorry, but Bingle is 3 scum players in a trenchcoat trying to sneak into a movie theater.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Anya

E-1

Let's see what N_M do.

[Bingle]

Is there any issue taken if I just hammer Anya here, or are we waiting for something specific?

Morph, any reason you didn’t have anything to say to this?

[Bingle]

Something something accusing you of TMI knowing both the scum kill and the doc claim is real. It’s okay though, absolutely no one puts too much stock in scum slips in this lobby.

[Bingle]

Hm. That implies you knew NM wasn’t hidden hammered.

[Bingle]

It’s fairly realistic for me to die over soggy tonight, actually.

[Bingle]

Autocorrect, was meant to be siggy

[Bingle]

Both Shea and Chara had extremely strong yet obtuse townreads to the point of actively fighting the wagon HARD on Anya.

I'm interested in hearing their reasons.

P.S. - Bingle, I will answer your question from the closing of day one if you still wish to hear it, but I'd like to take a little bit to have everyone check in first. Hopefully you can live with that.

I'm fine with not having the discussion we're going to have now, but we both know we will have to have that discussion today.

[Bingle]

Ok so thoughts on me claiming my action

Whats the rule of thumb for this

You've already claimed that you had an active action. If it failed and you know that, it's worth saying so. If you have a soft inno/guilty you should probably just point at the person in question and let your flip speak for you if you die before it becomes relevant. If you have a relevant result, outside of playing coy to bait more information it's probably best just to claim at this point.

[Bingle]

Anya [13]: Ircher,

Lady Lambdadelta

, Titus, Bell, Sigmund, Dunnstral, notscience, Something_Smart,

Artemiana

,

Bingle

, Whemestar, Flea The Magician,

Toogeloo

[Hammer!]

If bussing, where?

I don't think Artem is scum without morph being scum first, and LLD bought a free pass to at least D4 with that. I think this was a mostly town driven wagon, and I would be surprised to see more than 2 scum earlier than my name without weird dueling scum wagons nonsense.

[Bingle]

I HAVE A GUILTY ON TITUS

Bad post.

No turbo limming based on this.

[Bingle]

Please help me kill- Bingle

I believe in you notty! YOU CAN DO IT!

[Bingle]

Trying to eliminate Not Mafia seems pretty dumb tbqh. Should we make them claim?

Like what's the difference between a Not Mafia death and a policy death in this game? Voting Not Mafia is an easy place to park a vote of no substance, all so we can "test" it and see if it's a game mechanic?

The mod cannot lie to us, and last I checked, there were still 17 town and 6 mafia aligned players based on the set up. So eliminating Not Mafia does pretty much nothing in the way of solving who's who.

If anything, I think it's a mechanic designed to punish town for being lazy. We get rid of our greatest weapon, the daily execution, and do nothing with it.

Toog is honestly a strange kill.

[Bingle]

Okay I lied jingle it is ABSOLUTELY time to have that discussion.

You here?

I actually want G and Siggy to post first.

[Bingle]

I knew Artemis was a hexer. I also had a pretty good percent guess that the scum ninja was one of the EOD wagons.

I knew STD was a necromancer. I knew the rest of Toog's skills more or less, as well.

Are you claiming what I think you're claiming?

[Bingle]

No. I'm claiming that unwnd designed the roles and flavor explicitly around the real in game classes, and merely knowing one's role name is enough to know nearly exactly what their abilities are.

I literally did a read-through of each and every class in the game pregame.

What role did you think I had before I outed. Also, is there a game wiki I can browse?

[Bingle]

I feel like the name of the game the flavor is based on has already been posted, even if I don't remember it off the top of my head. Morph's reaction to me prior to my use of my ability is also not something relevant to scum's ability to hunt other players.

[Bingle]

That's what I was looking up, yes.

I had vaguely wanted to see G and Sig react to the TMI accusation I was softing before we had this discussion, but I suppose I can live without that. I'm fine with leaving you as town based on what I've seen.

Odds on a flavorbreak being viable?

[Bingle]

No more titus votes please.

^This, btw, is 100% why I said Arte's outing of the guilty was bad. There are still things worth resolving and I don't want to rush to EoD.

[Bingle]

I’m confused why people are saying art hasn’t claimed a straight up cop guilty here and why people are saying to wait.

No one is saying the first. People are saying the latter because "JUST SHUT UP AND FOLLOW THE GUILTY" is probably the surest way to ensure the guilty is antitown.

[Bingle]

Wait, did Arte claim she targeted N_M over the night phase?

[Bingle]

I did not rely on my rocks as I thought I would, but relied on the obv doppelganger after the ninja flip

Is there any reason you didn't rely on the literal confirmed town?

[Bingle]

Okay, yeah, Arte is locktown.

I very much doubt that scum would've been scared off by my softing PGO, but I was 100% doing that all day yesterday.

[Bingle]

Man remember when players actually fucking read the post literally above them before asking stupid fucking questions?

No.

[Bingle]

Wait, did Arte claim she targeted N_M over the night phase?

My mod interrogation over the night had implied this couldn't happen, but apparently it can, btw.

[Bingle]

I am okay with Arte and no one else targeting me tonight, FWIW. I have more SP than I need, as well, so there's that.

[Bingle]

I dislike it still. Unless there's reason to believe the setup is broken through it (there doesn't appear to be a lack of classes available to use from what I've looked at, so unwnd could easily have planned around it) which I trust you when you say there isn't it's probably not worth doing. Especially given the glut of info we already have.

[Bingle]

OKAY MY TURN

I THINK SCUM HAS A ROLEBLOCKER MAYBE PERHAPS IDK

Almost certainly. Odd that they'd use it on you, though.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Titus

I HAVE A GUILTY ON TITUS

RIP.

VOTE: titus

VOTE: titus very fine with this too, i was sring her already

@artemiana do you have an innate attack ability too?

VOTE: TITUS

Get wrecked! LMAO!!!

Actually UNVOTE: Titus

So we dont speed yeet

Of these I think Fark and G are the worst, but honestly I think scum is more likely to just sit back and let town do their dirty work if this IS TvT.

[Bingle]

I need to step back from the game and think about things, given that I have many conflicting thoughts atm. I will be reading along, just probably not quite so active the next few days.

[Bingle]

If each of you had my rolecard how would each of you use tonight

I wouldn't be upset if you drained some of my excess SP (Again, I have more than I need), but you could also try to target a scumread and turn off their special abilities. As far as parity copping I would probably pick two big name players who are likely to die before endgame to try to double up on results, but I definitely wouldn't announce who before hand.

[Bingle]

Wheme is probably not lying about the cryptic message, but assuming we know what it means is just likely to result in shitpushes. There was a protective soft on me that I caught, and it’s possible that toog was an extra scum kill or vig kill and scum did try to kill me. If siggy is scum it explicitly makes sense that both he and I would be alive, which is precisely enough reason to leave me alive if he’s town and I’m off base.

[Bingle]

Let's run a science experiment where we all demand in one hand and shit in the other and find out which hand fills first. I betcha the hand doesn't belong to someone with diarrhea.

Is today the day I get an Ircher elimination? It feels like today is the day I get an Ircher elimination.

[Bingle]

I'm concerned that you think you're required to shit in your hand because you have a two year old. That seems like a pretty dangerous logical leap.

[Bingle]

Also ffery says something about giving you the Ax, but not the Axe, as that stays with sigmund.

VOTE: ircher

For serious, though, I'm not actually sure I want Ircher right now. We've had like 0 conversation about things that actually scumhunting today and while I still maintain that Ircher has not towntold once and jjh was independently scummy, I do want to explore why people think Sigmund is still alive, hear from LLD, and get more content from some of our less readable slots.

I think Wheme's confusion/claim is probably more likely to be expressed in thread as town, and I don't think he's lying about getting that message. Titus could be scum, but any wagon that goes there right now is just going to be a pile of murky :lolmechshit: that's impossible to analyze later. I kinda want to pressure some of the less readable slots into taking stances today and look at how the Flea/Sigmund/Anya interplay actually worked knowing now that Anya was a scum wagon.

[Bingle]

You think a scum wagon countered another scum wagon?

It's possible. It's actually why I tr LLD as hard as I do. LLD can bus if she wants to, but

I

was pushing the Sigmund wagon hard. If there's ever a free pass to sheep wrong town, it's when the IC is the wrong town and LLD specifically didn't take that out.

[Bingle]

MOD EVENT

> You notice that daylight is fast approaching it's end. The shadows from the forest lengthen, as they cast a figure by design. The bustle of the wildlife you once heard is more muted. You no longer hear animals rummaging in shrubbery, or skittering on the branches. The crickets harmonize with their chirps, signaling change. You crane your neck upward, seeking to peer above the trees. As your hone your own vision, your eyes widen from the spectacle. The view in this moment seems all the more special to you.

The sun begins to descend into the horizon, as an amber orange paints the evening sky.

Votecount 1.9

Adventurers

:

Ircher [5]: Chara, Bingle, Anya, Thestatusquo, Titus
Sigmund [3]: Save the Dragons, Artemiana, Flea the Magician
Flea the Magician [2]: Dunnstral, White Fire
White Fire [2]: WhemeStar, Sigmund
Save the Dragons [2]: Toogeloo, Farkran
WhemeStar [2]: NDMath, MURDERCAT
Artemiana [1]: Lady Lambdadelta
Anya [1]: Ircher
NDMath [1]: Bell
Farkran [1]: Guillotina
MURDERCAT [1]: notscience
Dunnstral [1]: Flea the Magician

Not Voting [2]: Something_Smart, Not_Mafia, morph the cat

With 23 alive it takes 13 to eliminate. Stratum 1 ends in (expired on 2021-06-04 22:25:25).

You think a scum wagon countered another scum wagon?

It's possible. It's actually why I tr LLD as hard as I do. LLD can bus if she wants to, but

I

was pushing the Sigmund wagon hard. If there's ever a free pass to sheep wrong town, it's when the IC is the wrong town and LLD specifically didn't take that out.

IC push doesn’t matter that much tho

LLD pushed Anya in a state when Sigmund/Flea were dueling wagons and she didn't really have the onus of leading a push forced on her. If Sigmund/Flea is S/T LLD is derailing from a scumbuddy onto a scumbuddy when the former is heavily suspected (Flea was a default option all day) or decided to claim something with a pretty significant expiration date. If it's T/T LLD is derailing from two pretty good options for a lim onto a partner. If all four of Sigmund/LLD/Flea/Anya were scum, then scum is pretty fucked here. Do you think hardtownreading LLD here is wrong?

[Bingle]

ignore the VC there, didn't mean to quote it. Chara/WF, could you link the susp interactions?

[Bingle]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ts_as_Town

I have a guilty result on Mina.

[Bingle]

then you can gain a lot without losing much.

Risking :lolguiltyhammers: and stifling natural discussion in this case being the much, but yes, that article was written for a different time.

The problem with saying fake guilty gambits are okay is that you get a lot of really shitty gambits that do pretty much exactly this. Introduce a bunch of WIFOM to the thread, confuse a bunch of issues, piss off a bunch of players, and don't actually help with reads progressions all that much.

[Bingle]

This is an opinion only appealing to bingle.

It's not really an opinion appealing to Bingle. Just because in this particular case I didn't see waiting on claims as useful/worthwhile does not think that I normally don't or even that I scumread people who want to.

If he's attempting to pocket me internally inconsistent walls with only a single aspect of analysis is a very poor way to go about it.

[Bingle]

If it helps I don't think you (or MC, atm) should claim. MC has claimed "potentially useful role". That's the whole spectrum. Fuck, fruit vendors are potentially useful roles.

[Bingle]

Ok I am sleeping now, here is how far I got.

Anya wagon analysis:

Ircher – Leaves a nonconsequential vote on Anya as the wagon grows all the way to hammer, but never really pushes it the way you would if you wanted bus cred I think.

Titus – I am going to wait to look at the start of D2 to understand Titus. I really don’t like that I am straight town in 1010 given my iso at that point. But actually I just looked back at it and I was somewhat active at the start. I’m also not sure what to make of anya being lean scum despite the quotes leading up to that post, but I guess lean scum is the strongest read in that list. Maybe Titus is just town actually, but I’m still going to reread the start of this day later. Ok future MC here, I think I will just townbin Titus.

Dunn – I don’t like how Dunn has shaded me, but there isn’t a lot of talk about Anya in either direction, it’s literally just the vote.

LLD – Still don’t like LLD, think it was a D1 bus. The quotes that I posted in 3993 just feel off to me. I know LLD is a forceful player but it’s too confident. Like what is 2752 even saying? What in the Anya quotes makes LLD “very certain”? And the reasoning in 2709 just feels so fake to me. “There is something genuine lacking there” isn’t a real thought imo.

I would like elaboration on all of these.

What makes Irch's vote nonconsequential while he's stuck in catchup hell? When was his opportunity to push for bus cred?

How is Titus's D2 a good look for Titus on the Anya wagon?

Why is Dunn's shade of absent you bad? Why isn't his vote without a push good for him in the same way as Irch's?

Why does LLD hardbus there? Have you played with LLD before?

[Bingle]

To some degree. In general I think its overused. I think self-meta is mostly garbage. But I think that a meta attack can be refuted with a meta defense, which is what I'm doing here. If the claim is that MC is generally more productive than he has been here and I don't think thats true it seems completely reasonable to say "hey, that attack isn't true, do some research." There's plenty of MC large themes to look at, Among Us being the most recent one.

MC can and has been high effort on D1 in Larges. (See, TM.)

I think his activity is NAI, but it's definitely not towny. The thing with MC is that you have to prod him for content as either alignment, but his content when it comes has been lacking this game.

[Bingle]

Basically, MC not being here doesn't raise eyebrows. MC's posts when he IS here do.

[Bingle]

I'm more than happy to let Murder continue his analysis. As expressed previously, Shea is absolutely right in that MC does have minimal contribution in larges as both alignments, and I've actually seen relatively little in the realm of trying to engage with him.

Kitty, it kind of got buried but when you get a chance:

Ok I am sleeping now, here is how far I got.

Anya wagon analysis:

Ircher – Leaves a nonconsequential vote on Anya as the wagon grows all the way to hammer, but never really pushes it the way you would if you wanted bus cred I think.

Titus – I am going to wait to look at the start of D2 to understand Titus. I really don’t like that I am straight town in 1010 given my iso at that point. But actually I just looked back at it and I was somewhat active at the start. I’m also not sure what to make of anya being lean scum despite the quotes leading up to that post, but I guess lean scum is the strongest read in that list. Maybe Titus is just town actually, but I’m still going to reread the start of this day later. Ok future MC here, I think I will just townbin Titus.

Dunn – I don’t like how Dunn has shaded me, but there isn’t a lot of talk about Anya in either direction, it’s literally just the vote.

LLD – Still don’t like LLD, think it was a D1 bus. The quotes that I posted in 3993 just feel off to me. I know LLD is a forceful player but it’s too confident. Like what is 2752 even saying? What in the Anya quotes makes LLD “very certain”? And the reasoning in 2709 just feels so fake to me. “There is something genuine lacking there” isn’t a real thought imo.

I would like elaboration on all of these.

What makes Irch's vote nonconsequential while he's stuck in catchup hell? When was his opportunity to push for bus cred?

How is Titus's D2 a good look for Titus on the Anya wagon?

Why is Dunn's shade of absent you bad? Why isn't his vote without a push good for him in the same way as Irch's?

Why does LLD hardbus there? Have you played with LLD before?

[Bingle]

I like sigmunds' analysis of Fark.

I vaguely don't think Chara is scum. It feels genuine and solvey to me, and I don't think it's very S/S to indicative that Chara stuck it's neck for Anya when she was pretty likely to go down anyway.

I think there's something off in the Bell/Shea interaction wrt murderkitty, but I can't pinpoint what exactly. I'd like additional perspective there if people are around to give it to me. The entire back and forth just didn't feel very T/T at all.

[Bingle]

You know, if you really wanted people to follow this, you would have posted it more prominently, not on a random page in normal font. This is especially true since this is contrary to standard mechanical play.

What the fuck is the point of this? Like... Casting shade on the IC for weak crumbing PGO as a largely WIFOM bit a day and a half ago is worth responding to? Why, in any world, is this your priority as town?

[Bingle]

If I was scum and i got a roleblocker, i would both roleblock and nightkill the doctor claim. This is assuming they also have a killing role, because otherwise why roleblock the doctor if the only have one kill at their disposal.

This is weird, tbh. G spent a lot of time talking about how if I died last night, Sigmund should totally die today, but apparently doesn't recognize that if scum can roleblock a doc and then kill the IC it puts the doc in a really awkward position. I don't think that this is useful atm, but hopefully someone ISO dives and sees this if the game goes down to the wire and any of the involved parties are still around.

[Bingle]

Gamestate wise, the lack of votes on Irch makes me think scum are just fine with the MC wagon, FWIW. I'm not TR-ing MC, but I definitely prefer the Ircher wagon and want MC to have a chance to give his thoughts at the very least.

VOTE: Ircher

[Bingle]

No if scum were fine with the wagon, MURDERCAT would already be hammered. Besides, "lack of votes" is blatantly false. I'm the second largest wagon.

Second largest wagon. At 3 votes. While murdercat is at 8 with him literally V/LA for most of those, and promising more content when he gets back. The pushback to the MC wagon is: Shea arguing that MC being absent is NAI. Yeah, there was no counter wagon to MC and that causes concern to me.

So, since you ignored me the last time I asked, why are you going out of your way to cast shade on me?

[Bingle]

VOTE: Bingle
IC or not, this needs to go.

Is this shade?

[Bingle]

With all due respect, I got a role PM that said "You don't have to give a shit how people see you"

I don't have to worry about my image, and that has flavored a lot of my play.

Ircher is not saying: Bingle is scummy.

Ircher is saying: Bingle is actively hurting town with his presence and thus should not be listened to, implying that Ircher's reads are infallible and all of mine are wrong.

From a town Ircher's perspective, Ircher is butthurt that I scumread him and refusing to actually engage with the things I say because of it despite still catching up.
From a scum Ircher's perspective, Ircher is mad that I'm scumreading him and wants people to not listen to me.

[Bingle]

Your definition of shade clearly differs from mine. The thing re:pgo soft was a suggestion/advice, not shade. 4235 is my version of events which I'm contrasting against yours. Again, it's not shade. Remember: disagreeing isn't shade.

3 votes isn't really a counterwagon to 8 votes and additional people who have expressed interest. You weren't a real counterwagon until you just made yourself a real counterwagon. The "play advice" felt like empty posturing given that it came after it would have nominally been useful even if I hadn't been aware that was a weak AF crumb more intended to sow wifom than anything else, but definitely carried with it the implication of incompetence on my part.

What's your case on notty?

UNVOTE:

Not okay with either wagon going through before MC has a chance to follow up on 'content' fwiw.

[Bingle]

What distinguishes mc wagon from anya wagon yesterday in this regard (am referring to after sigmund's claim)? time pressure?

Missed this, but the anya wagon had viable counterwagons and more time pressure yes.

I'm also not worried about MC claiming, I'm worried about MC giving content, which I didn't really expect to be forthcoming from Anya regardless of alignment.

MC as town usually has pretty solid reads, so if I'm going to be party to mislimming him I want to give him a chance to share those reads. If he's scum, we're not in a position where the thread is suffering from stagnation so I'm happy to give him a chance to contribute.

[Bingle]

I regret the MC wagon, not because I think it’s wrong but because I wish we’d done it later in the day so that the game didn’t stall.

To an extent I agree. The wagon would probably have been more informative if it hadn’t happened when mc was absent.

On the other hand, ircher and ndmath have been more readable than they have been all game in the last ~10 pages. The wagon shift from mc to ircher WAS kind of strange, especially when as Dunn pointed out the only real impetus there was irchers vote on me and immediate shift to Titus. I don’t think the game is as stalled as it might seem.

[Bingle]

Bingle to me is just a slot whom i know is town who is willing to twist people’s words so his theories seem right. I wish the inno child was someone else but it’s what we got.

If anything I’d characterize my play as not having pushed any significant theories.

Pics? Or is this just a “I’m mad Bingle thinks my TMI argument sucks”?

[Bingle]

Ircher reads both at the front and end of the game and could have unvoted as part of catchup to avoid anya wagon gaining traction or could have made more of a point of pushing anya as part of the catchup, imo

I don't think this is a real read.

Ircher's vote on Anya came at the end of a catchup wall where he pointed out a faketownslip as probably scum AI and then called out a post of hers as simply bad then immediately quoted shea justifying it. This vote was a vanity wagon at the time, he was the only person voting there and both Flea and Sigmund had wagons on them, with <3 days before deadline. I don't see how vanity vote near deadline with two alternative wagons is townread material. 2109

He made a post roughly 500 posts later that didn't even mention Anya.

His next post was after VC 12 and the Sigmund claim (Literally 2 posts after the Sigmund claim, in fact). The wagons were tied at 9-9 Sigmund and Anya. Ircher quite simply wasn't around to have moved his vote off when the wagon was building and when the whole point of MC's analysis was the wagon, that rings particularly false to me.

(Note, I don't find Ircher's presence or lack thereof on the Anya wagon to be a reason to scumread him, just that selling it as a reason to NOT scumread him seems reachy.)

[Bingle]

I don't see how vanity vote near deadline with two alternative wagons is townread material

Because it flipped scum?

My point is that there was no indication that it would flip at all. In the post where Irch gave his reasoning on Anya he also quoted my call for consolidation.

To me, it seems pretty viable to want to be the only vote on a scumbuddy when a town wagon goes through, and I don't think that thought doesn't occur to town you doing analysis.

Do you still think Flea is scum? I feel let down after 4006. I thought spoilers meant an incoming case.

[Bingle]

Something something goofball something something fake claim

Dammit, kitty, <3.

[Bingle]

I want everyone to name their top 3 preferred votes today, as of right now, and give me a single line as to why for each.

MC - His contributions feel significantly different than they did in TM (which is probably an unfair comparison, but :shrug:) and the actual content of what he's been posting doesn't jive with what I expect town him to be seeing.
Fark - I feel like Fark has been very much under the radar and there were some pings when I went back to double check Anya wagon interactions.
SS - Slight rolefishy pings.

In that order. None of them are strong scumreads.

[Bingle]

Slight rolefishy pings.

Yeah everyone knows you gotta just blatantly ask these days.

I was mostly referring to things like him blatantly asking the doc claim how much SP his ability cost. The slight wasn't in the degree of rolefishing, but the strength of the pings.

[Bingle]

(Also, morph's point still stands. If I ask that as scum, and then it turns out scum have a way to interfere in his action, who do you think looks the worst from that?)

The slight wasn't in the degree of rolefishing, but the

strength of the pings

.

I think you're reading too much into the strength of my scumreads here.

Until recently, my strongest scumread was a literal RVS case, and I'm of the opinion that Ircher slot is probably town atm. My read strength on you is "I can see you as scum if I squint."

I'm also paranoid I've been pocketed by both morph and shea (although probably not concurrently), but that's definitely not a priority for today. Flea is drifting closer and closer to faer remembered patterns from among us (Starting strong and dropping into meh) which was faer scumgame. I wouldn't oppose lims on Math or wheme either.

[Bingle]

Part of it was a lazy early game townread. Part of it is the active and blatant buddying of me while still not really trying to leverage any of my reads to make work with it, making it the highest risk lowest reward scumplay I've seen, especially given my lack of influence in the thread. Part of it is the confidence they've had in their interactions with LLD, which doesn't seem faked. Part of it is their reaction to my early softs and confidence.

Mostly though? I don't see the consistent blowups and thread derailment of the gambits involving Arte as a scum theater attempt. Like... the D1 gambit turned into a shit show because Arte wouldn't respond right away when confronted and morph did exactly what was necessary to try to draw blood from that stone, for better or worse. In order for that to be a scum motivated gambit, cabd/ffery has to recognize that Arte is going to play unreasonably coy when confronted in order to draw it out into the distraction it became, otherwise it's a fake inno on D1 for no real scum gain except maybe an early townread that's going to go stale long before the hydra is in any real trouble.

Couple that with their attempt to undermine the shitshow todays fakeclaim could've turned into and I don't think morph Arte is a S/S pair, which means they didn't control all of the variables they would've needed to to make D1 work the way it did even most of the time.

[Bingle]

There's no reasonable reason for Flea to assume I do two damage since all the flips this game have been 1 damage, and I think it's only you has claimed to do 2 damage. Anyway, even if that was the assumption, it should be apparent by now that I deal one damage, so I don't see why this is continuing not to click for you.

Mastina flipped without an Attack value, Anya flipped with an Attack of two, Toog 1 and STD 0. The sample PM also had an attack of two. More importantly, what do you think Flea/Dunn's assumptions about damage dealing mean?

Yes, it would easy to do, especially as scum. We al have innate damaging abilities, and I doubt Bingle has more than 5 HP for balancing reasons. If anything, I would suspect it is on the lower side to balance the IC ability.

As shown above, we explicitly don't all have innate damaging abilities.

pedit: No, it's a fallacy. It's rooted in some notion of reality, but it's still a fallacy.

It is, in fact, not a fallacy. It is an argument that because scum wants to look town, someone who looks excessively scummy is probably less likely to actually be scum. An example of a fallacy would be the Fallacy Fallacy, where one argues that because something is argued using fallacious logic the opposite must be true.

Dude was Guill slot scum

Dwlee looks town to me so far.

I don't really want an Ircher fade anymore. I don't think scum tries to encourage scum to use their attack abilities on me. They just do that if they're going to. I'm not really opposed to an MC fade, but I think I'd rather

VOTE: NDMath

right now.

[Bingle]

Apparently my pgo crumb was way more effective than I thought it would be.

I’m not dead, wasn’t attacked, and everybody and their uncle saw it.

Not sure how I feel about the balance of watcher/doc/ic all being town, tbh, but sigmund targeting lld and her not going on the war path because of negative effects is pretty much locktowning for sigmund, regardless of effectiveness, methinks. Toog kill makes a lot more sense from scum trying to play around a watcher.

I’m explicitly not an ascetic or pgo, btw, but I think I’m a bad target for protection anyway. I do have another part to my role, but it’s not a normal mafia term.

[Bingle]

Taco Bell and Pizza Hut are owned by the same corporation. Would you eat a cheese pizza with the Taco Bell fake nacho cheese sauce drizzled over it?