Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance-Town Wins!!

[[Low Key]]

No it was psychological pressure.

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: Your reads on Chk and CJ I can see but I have yet to understand you ruling out Toro.

Are you actually saying you believe that scum-Snarky couldn't voice suspicion of a scum buddy on the way out??

Either way, all we need is for one of Chk/CJ to flip scum with your push and it will do alot to ease my mind concerning your alignment.

[[Low Key]]

One of these three cannot be scum: Chk, CJ, Toro

Our remaining scum will be found there, all things being equal.

[[Low Key]]

Snarky:

1) Protected the Chk slot.
2) Bussed the CJ slot but only in response to a weird "obliged" case due to CJ not having an reads on our scum!
3) Bussed the Toro slot shortly before his death when under pressure of being vigged.

[[Low Key]]

The main reason I'm voting you and don't feel like re-examining it is that you pre-emptively claimed VT. When you wreck protocol it hurts the game chkflip. The PoE power of the masons is totally dilluted if you claim VT and then expect us to leave you alive and lynch someone else. DK is such an imbecile, I don't expect better from him, but I've played with you before and believe you should know better. It [preemptive claiming] forces our hand towards lynching you to regain setup advantage. scumchkflip seems more likely to screw the town like this to save his neck than townchkflip does, but really you'll win more mafia games if you avoid doing that with either alignment. L-1, player willing to hammer, claim. You should know that by now.

This too but with a slight unspecified reservation.

Ok sorry, revise my statement about Toro to: "He bussed him when under heavy suspicion of being scum".

[[Low Key]]

See that makes me see Toro as very likely scum.

[[Low Key]]

Toro was under obvious pressure as the vig target, Snarky saw that and threw him under the bus. I mean that makes alot of sense. I don't see any reason whatsoever to rule out Toro as scum for that.

[[Low Key]]

Ok please link me because I would love to rule out Toro. It will mean we've caught our last two scum.

[[Low Key]]

The following has been logged:

A) CJ being out in the Twilight Zone with his vote and scum list
B) Chkflip being willing to hammer Toro

@Toro: What is your view on Chkflip?

[[Low Key]]

Ya I thought he was joking too. That was my small unspecified reservation.

[[Low Key]]

No, LK. Bad, LK. He started pushing a Toro vig way, way, way before he was under any "pressure" as far as I can tell, but I briefly skimmed 16-20 last night so I may have missed where he came under this "pressure".

No muffin no. I know what you are talking about now, I looked it up.

Remember you and I talked about how I would agree to vig Toro and BAMMO out pops Snarky saying he wanted to vig Toro. This implicates both Snarky and Toro as scum.

Here is the post: Snarky _Pops_Up

Check 2 posts later for my reaction and further explanation supporting the Snarky-Toro link.

[[Low Key]]

Wow ya he wasn't joking there either. Obvious alignment obsession.

[[Low Key]]

LK, you're being inaccurate, or at the least confusing, when you say Snarky was under serious pressure of being vigged so then he bussed Toro.

I took that back (see the post below when you frist mentioned that) and it is not necessary to my point anyway.

Although your english was so unclear that in most of your posts I can't tell whether you're saying Toro was in vig danger or Snarky was in vig danger.

We can all agree Toro was in vig danger.

That post you referenced doesn't implicate Toro. It's the contrary if anything. It's all bite and no bark. He does crap to actually accumulate any cred from directing the vig to Toro, but he does make the vig more likely to kill Toro.

Being "twisty" is part of his nature as scum (apparently since he flipped). He clearly "votes" for the Toro vig. You can't get a better bus than that.

No one is going back through the thread and exonerating Snarky because he weakly pushed the vig to Toro. If anything, he's shirking responsibility for Toro's death.

Incorrect. Look closely at the bottom of the post. He is

clearly

trying to show an "I'm a leader on this" attitude towards the Toro vig.

[[Low Key]]

What prompted this? Look only a few posts up. It was me and muffin agreeing to vig Toro.

[[Low Key]]

Arch is fail. The rest of your list is fine.

[[Low Key]]

The next 80 posts was you pushing for a DK vig, until finally Snarky posts something and you jump back on him while supporting the idea of a Toro vig.

Incorrect. You and I spoke about vigging Toro and I agreed, THEN SNarky jumps and and says he wants to vig toro (remember a vig is instant death). Snarky was in my evil four list all along. It just became clear to me what that list was once I realized you were town. But that being said your "Arch is a good lynch" is horribad. I don't think you read through enough.

The whole "zomg you vigged Snarky!!?!?!?" to the "Well, you had us fooled, Snarky" before his flip was just meh.

My thought porcesses:

1) Pops first claims vig and I think she is lying. I state as such.
2) I'm like "OH CRAP ITS A TARP"
3) I immediately posted the "zomg you vigged snarky"
4) "You had us fooled snarky" was also part of the tarp

You can't possibly state that somehow I wasn't clear on Snarky being a suspect when I clearly listed 3 scum in a list of 4 of which Snarky was one but I think you realize that which is good.

I'm still not following how immediately after Snarky's flip you thought Toro was a good lynch (you and Arch, actually). Your push to keep Toro under suspicion in recent pages is just bad. It looks far more likely that Snarky was trying to get a vig going on Toro because he's town. All I've seen from you is "it's possible he's bussing" but it really makes no sense to assume he's bussing when it's far more likely he wanted a townie to be vigged.

Nope. He saw that Toro WAS the vig and immediately tried to get town cred by saying he wanted it too. Remember the vig is out of his hands and is instant death.

Also the lack of explanation as to why his vote "needs" to be on Toro.

Your Arch case is fail but this is a good question.

[[Low Key]]

I went to sleep and just woke up. I DO have a detailed case on you which is now forthcoming. A large part if it is the post I indicated during the "Kumbaya" period.

[[Low Key]]

1) Post #157 he enters and Votes Spad for aggressive tunnelling. This post is absolutely horribad and is to be held suspect.

2) In that post he fails to have any reads on our known scum. I then call him on it and he instantly provides a full scum read on Snarky. He later states to contradictory reasons why this happened:

A) He lost his notes and B) He had no notes because "there was nothing scummy or townie in any of Snarky's posts"!? What?? First of all A contradicts B and B is like sort of impossible.

There is something fishy going on with that. My best theory is that he initially tried to get away with not posting reads for Snarky (possibly he left him for last because he was one of his scum partners and then got rushed or any number of other reasons like it was accidental) and when called on it realized how bad it would look and felt forced to make a strong scum bussing case. Snarky then replied in-kind and even stated himself that CJ provided the case because he was "obliged" to by my calling him out on it.

3) Post #182 is screaming screaming scum and will be dissected below:

If we

do

lynch DK

and he flips

Town

, Spadille and Snarky will practically be confirmed scum for me.

This is setting up mislynches based on a town flip. This is horribad. I will also point out that here he prob knows that DK is town as well as Spad and his real target is Spad. His real motive here is to get both DK and Spad lynched while bussing Snarky for town cred.

As for the day-vig the L-1 issue... I don't know. I think that it'd
a) Be a 75% chance of wasting a Town-oriented Vig kill,
b) Extend the day further than it would have to, possibly causing more inactivity and prodding, and/or
c) Possibly be manipulated by scum in that they could kill whomever they wanted, anonymously (25% chance).

Overall, I think the day Vig should be used at the discretion of the holder.

Maybe if the one-shot were to claim on D3

, when we can decide for them who to kill, as a second vote? Then it's no longer anonymous, and likely lessens the chance of hitting Town from the kill.

Scum fear the vig and this delay to D3 and all the fear mongering over the vig is defnitely +scum. He continues to heavily encourage the delay of the vig and continues to fear monger over it in further posts but there is no need to belabor this point. He was

strongly

anti-vig.

4) Says doesn't know how scum play (smiley). This post just looks really weird. Quoted below for clarifcation:

"Once we discover that the scum has the vig by them using it, how does that harm the Town?"
"Town's already been harmed."
"What makes you think the scum would have already used the vig??"
Well... The original question criteria?

And I don't know exactly how scum behaviour would differ, because I don't know how scum behavior is normally

This looks like scum obfuscation and sort of alignment obsession really.

5) He has spewed forth so much crapologic trying to discourage the vig that he ultimately plays the newbie card in his defense to explain it.

6) He calls for the Masons to claim. I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY think this guy is actively Mason hunting based on his suspicions and votes. This "Masons should claim" theory just reinforces that idea.

7)His vote and suspect list is

horribad

right now. He is out in the Twilight Zone which is a common trait of scum when the suspect list gets really tight like it is now.

[[Low Key]]

What if the Masons were to claim? If we have a group of three people who can confirm each other as Masons, then all of Town will have three confirmeds - rather than three people having two confirmeds.

Umhmm, ya.

[[Low Key]]

But, a question or two for Low Key:

1. Are you an Alt account, or played on another forum? You don't seem at first glance like a player in their second game. Especially from that first really long paragraph on your profile...

I have been playing over a period of years.

Why am I scum and why is Archaist not?

You are scum for the reasons I stated 1-7 in my post. Arch is not because he didn't receive the same role PM as you did.

WHY TRIPLE POST?

Why whine if it relates to scumhunting? If it was fluff and I was troll-spamming I could understand but bringing this up is like "BFD, get over it :rolleyes:". If anyone else brings it up I'll just quote this reply.

Where have you disappeared to? I never said to leave completely, I just asked for posting one post at a time, maybe two [/list]

Already answerred this.

[[Low Key]]

Stop coasting and contribute more. Like scum hunting content please.

[[Low Key]]

How about starting with your list of reads on all players? I see that was requested of you and you ignored it. Get cracking sparky.

[[Low Key]]

ROFLMAO on your #620 as my case actually agrees with your weaksauce single-reason voting post of CJ. But that's OK just snipe from the sidelines even if it makes no sense. Just let your gut run away with you and coast.

[[Low Key]]

C'mon. Have you read my case or just knee-jerked reacted on it? The point where we obviously agree

IS

my #3 which reads:

Scum fear the vig and this delay to D3 and all the

fear mongering

over the vig

is defnitely +scum.

He continues to heavily encourage the delay of the vig and continues to

fear monger

over it

in further posts but there is no need to belabor this point. He was strongly anti-vig.

So lets stick to reality and the facts.

[[Low Key]]

Btw, its amazing how our D1 here feels so much like LYLO normally does.

We have guaranteed scum in this list: CJ, Chkflip, Toro

If everything is as it appears, both our scum reside in this list.

I know Muffin suspects me and I suspect him as well if that list fails. What we share in common is our calling out of Snarky early (and at least for me often). If we can just hit scum today with Muffin and I agreeing, we will auto-win as town.

[[Low Key]]

Well, I agree with your overall reasoning in #628 but I would ask you to make the same deal with me on DK (which I agreed to) but with Arch instead.

For the moment, removing Arch and myself, who would your scum suspects be?

(I say remove myself because I have done the same for you)

[[Low Key]]

I would also like to see Toro comment on the goings on in the last half of the day and I would like him to answer the query which I have outstanding to him.

[[Low Key]]

For the moment, removing Arch and myself, who would your scum suspects be?

(I say remove myself because I have done the same for you)

I don't think you should be 'removing' me if I'm still a suspect of yours.

You're asking an insignificant question. The only player I'd be willing to rule out altogether as scum is pops. After that, there are varying degrees of likelihood, but I can't just rule out certain players and ignore them for no reason, so why does it matter what I'd do if I 'removed' you and Arch? You're still in the game. As long as you're in the game, I'll be suspicious of you until I see reason not to be.

If you check my list, you will see that I have placed you in the "unconfirmed town" section because you are probably town. I am suspicious of you too but definitely not TODAY. If we can both hit scum TODAY you will be confirmed town and we auto-win.

Look we both called out Snarky. I agreed with your early reads and your stance on DK and Toro. Once I realized that you were probably town, everything opened up. You are not a scum suspect for today at all. You only become a current suspect if and when the short list fails.

So who are your top suspects apart from Arch and myself?

And look, on Arch you gotta trust me on this. He's not scum. The same way I trusted you that DK was not scum.

[[Low Key]]

@Pops re: Snarky -- Good job btw. But ya he had no way to know that.

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: You have

seriously

[/b] failed in your read of this game if those are your 3 scum suspects.

Serious question: ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME!?

Seriously, is that a joke??

[[Low Key]]

@All: (and you know who you are) Should we just open things up and lynch Muffin right now?

[[Low Key]]

Hahahaah well if I get the green light there won't need to be a case -- its auto-lynch and immediately.

[[Low Key]]

But I will say Muffin that your reads are SCUMTASTIC * 1E+06.

You pretty much HAVE to be scum here.

[[Low Key]]

Although there is one post in particular from you that has been bugging me. Its your "scum reads" (which I thought you meant in an entirely different way) where you leave Snarky off as a distant last candidate.

[[Low Key]]

@Spad: Please tell me this IN ALL HONESTY, what do you think of Muffin's 3 scum suspects. Look if you want me to drop it I will but I REALLY REALLY REALLY think he is scum here and we need to lynch him right now.

[[Low Key]]

@Pops: I explained how the Snarky part was a bus. Don't forget he wanted DK and Spad lynched first before anyone got to Snarky.

[[Low Key]]

Oh and btw MoI is far more logical than I, but I think I can read him when he's scum or town.

[[Low Key]]

I'm just not buying your reads could be so bad Muffin but I don't have a choice in the matter. Sorry I couldn't do better this game.

Vote Muffin

[[Low Key]]

I am not claiming mason but I am town aligned. Do you want me to name them?

[[Low Key]]

@Spad: I am saying that Muffin needs to be lynched and we have the power to do it immediately.

I'll post the post from Muffin that now implicates him as scum in my mind. Please hold.

[[Low Key]]

What really doesn't sit well with me about the DK wagon is the people on it.

There's got to be 2 scum on it, and since I have town reads on 3 of the players not on the wagon, the only possible off-wagon scum I'm considering are cj/chk(dj) and I think only one of them is scum.

Toro makes sense as scum. LK, spad and Arch also make sense. Snake is just meh.

Snarky is less suspicious purely because he put effort into making a case, and as much as I disagree with it, I can see where he's coming from.

I think his analysis is scumtastic and he is really soft-defending Snarky here. I'm just posting this for the record.

[[Low Key]]

And just in case it gets lost, I have a query out in #661.

[[Low Key]]

The fact that Muffin now waffles so hard on Toro has bothered me alot. Both Muffin and Pops agree on Toro but I have pointed out how Toro is clearly implicated by Snarky as a scum partner twice.

Right now Muffin should have been agreeing with me on the short list but instead he pulls a scum list out of his posterior. Sorry just my take on it.

[[Low Key]]

You never specifically addressed my response to your original post. I DID respond to that and yes I DO clearly show how Snarky

twice

has scum motivation for bussing Toro. You have not responded to my specific points.

[[Low Key]]

No, I'm interested that you answer these questions: "chkflip and zMuffinMan went to mars, who will be your next scum pick?"

It is either Toro or CJ.

Why are you suspicious of people who doesn't follow your quest?

I am suspicious of people who suspect people that are clearly town aligned.

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: If you are town you will try and figure out why I'm declaring you as scum and how I could come to such a conclusion. When you have done that we can work together to lynch scum today. Otherwise I only want your lynch.

[[Low Key]]

Well it SHOULD and that's why I want you lynched.

Requested quote forthcoming.

[[Low Key]]

The relevant posts are: here, here and here.

[[Low Key]]

That was classy. And uhh... fuck you, too?

Yes, I like your answer. Lol, I just wanted some lulz between Muffin's and LK's conversation. XD Thank you for being sport about it though. Fuck you.

@LK You are suspicious of Muffin for defending Snarky and you still would like to work with him? How will his attempt at figuring out will derail your scum read against him?

I'm saying that NOW that he has gone all scumtastic with his scum suspects, THAT post looks especially bad. I misunderstood that post when I first saw it back then.

[[Low Key]]

If he could read the dang thread and figure out what is actually going freaking on and admit it, then we could work together but I don't think he realized the true state of affairs and now he's caught.

[[Low Key]]

I mean you're right -- I just don't think he realized anyone else would be so on to him.

[[Low Key]]

Well Snarky bussing Toro twice is plausible then and no reason to rule Toro out.

[[Low Key]]

The two busses on Toro from Snarky are (in order):

1) As soon as he sees that Muffin and I have agreed to vig Toro he comes in and votes Toto for the vig. That is town cred for an impending death.

2) He does it again when it looks like the vig has been placed and will be incoming.

People are actually giving Snarky credit for implicating Toro as if it couldn't be a bus. That just isn't true. It could be a bus.

[[Low Key]]

I was asked if I was claiming mason. Wth do you want me to say. I'm not claiming mason. I'm claiming town aligned, that's it.

[[Low Key]]

Ok, well if Toro isn't rules out then fine. The short list is now:

Muffin, CJ, Toro, Chkflip

[[Low Key]]

No I wasn't and that is explained in #661.

[[Low Key]]

That's the only pro-town response when asked about one's alignment as a non-power role.

[[Low Key]]

Or you could be a power role and just not claiming it.

[[Low Key]]

Ok the thread is getting a little confusing. I linked how Snarky-Toro was aligned by bussing for you. I think Muffin is scum because he didn't think anyone would know the truth and he should lbe immediately auto-lynched.

[[Low Key]]

I am about to name the masons here...

[[Low Key]]

I don't need to claim them to name them.

[[Low Key]]

* I don't need to claim mason to name them.

[[Low Key]]

And I don't think Muffin does either which is my point.

[[Low Key]]

I am 100% certain of who the masons are. Period.

[[Low Key]]

When the head mason tells me to do it I will. But I guess that's off the table.

Scum are here: Muffin, CJ, Toro, Chkflip.

Guaranteed scum in that list.

[[Low Key]]

Both scum in that list in fact. Ship it.

[[Low Key]]

I say we auto-lynch Muffin and decide from there.

[[Low Key]]

@Chkflip: But your interference and anti-town behavior has been scumtastic although I will admit that if you flip scum you should get kudos for your performance.

[[Low Key]]

@Spad:

1) To get the 2 extra votes we need for the lynch.
2) It should be obvious why Muffin is scum.

Toro behaved so freaking weird when he was about to be vigged. He just didn't respond as a townie should. It was like he had just given up. I wasn't the only one that noticed that.

[[Low Key]]

Ok the thread is getting a little confusing. I linked how Snarky-Toro was aligned by bussing for you. I think Muffin is scum because he didn't think anyone would know the truth and he should lbe immediately auto-lynched.

LK, you are willing to follow someone you think is scum?
Also answer my question again because you have misanswered it

What is the other question you say I didn't asnwer?

[[Low Key]]

Chk all you have done is coast and snipe so w/e all of your attempts to describe how the game works just falls on deaf ears.

[[Low Key]]

There is a mason that I consider to be the mastermind and who was most instrumental in getting us to kill Snarky but its just my title for them.

Ok 713 & 715 coming up.

[[Low Key]]

Ok Spad this is getting out of hand we are talking about links to links and such. Just re-ask the questions.

1) I think Muffin is scum and its obvious why.
2) I think its clear how Snarky bussed Toro and that makes Toro a suspect. Others have agreed that this is possible so its no longer a relevant point.
3) Toro is a strong suspect especially because of his behavior under vigging pressure yesterday.

[[Low Key]]

If we lynch Toro today we will most likely hit scum again.

[[Low Key]]

I'm sorry Spad, I can't make it any plainer as to why Muffin is scum.

Muffin should be the stronger scum here.

[[Low Key]]

But Toro is most certainly scum for his behavior yesterday.

[[Low Key]]

*almost

[[Low Key]]

Forget Toro then. Muffin is scum. That's it.

[[Low Key]]

2) I'm sorry I don't have permission from the head Mason to do that.

1) He practically gave up yesterday and accepted he was going to die as scum. Others saw it and commented on it (at least myself and Pops). You can see his behavior right around the time I posted that "Deadly Alliance" picture.

I don't see why we just can't lynch Muffin.

[[Low Key]]

Well now the problem is that Muffin has claimed scum. For me to continue to believe that Toro is scum I would have to believe that Muffin was bussing Toro and even with the vig. This appears to me to be highly unlikely. That is why I ultimately decided that Muffin is scum and above Toro.

In which case, the scum are Muffin and one of: Chkflip, CJ.

The operative list is again: Muffin, Toro, Chkflip, CJ

[[Low Key]]

Beaing defeatist isn't telling one way or the other, really. Both alignments fall prey to it.

I'm willing to accept this. Pops can weigh in on that too.

[[Low Key]]

Links to Muffin claiming scum, please.

When I have permission from the head Mason.

[[Low Key]]

For me to give concretely as evidence why Muffin is obvscum I actually do need permission from the head Mason. They know what I mean by this and I need specifically to receive permission from them to bring that case.

I don't think Muffin and Toro can be scum together.

[[Low Key]]

But Toro was a strong suspect of mine before Muffin became obvscum.

[[Low Key]]

Loki future clearly explains what Loki-present says. My scum list has been made clear every since the decision was made to vig Toro:

Toro, CJ, Chkflip, Snarky

Muffin was a suspect that would be held back unless Toro didn't flip scum. I was certain that Muffin offering Toro as the vig target meant Muffin was town-aligned because Toro was on my scum list. I felt certain that Muffin knew the masons and was ready to hit scum twice today and go on to an auto town win. I found out that clearly I was wrong about Muffin. That puts him back into the list which now then reads:

Muffin, Toro, Cj, Chkflip

Ok now, for Toro to be scum that means that Muffin would have to be bussing him on his initial suspicion of Toro and that Toro would have to be bussing Muffin from the moment he entered into the game. In addition Muffin would have had to be willing to offer Toro up as a vig target as well. So, I'm not buying that Toro and Muffin can be scum together. So the list reads:

Muffin, CJ, Chkflip

Our two scum are in that list.

I'm sorry but that's as far as I can go. Without the permission from the head Mason I can't bring my Muffin as obvscum case.

[[Low Key]]

Btw a side note. It may be that the Masons disagree with my analysis. I find that hard to believe considering the evidence. If the Masons disagree then we should be lynching from:

Toro, CJ, Chkflip

Because I believe that Muffin is obvscum (and that the Masons should be clearly agreeing with me) I would suggest that special emphasis be placed on CJ/Chkflip. Muffin bussed Chkflip with the threat of a (delayed) hammer while dismissing the case on CJ. Its all WIFOM really but there is guaranteed to be at least one scum in the above list regardless.

[[Low Key]]

Unless the Masons need me I guess I'll just shut up now. I guess I've done enough damage for one day. Sorry and go town.

[[Low Key]]

Last Plea: Head Mason, please let's auto-lynch Muffin? Pretty freaking please!??

/out

[[Low Key]]

Ok with the two last posts, I think that was permission.

The Masons are (in the order I learned them): Spad, Snake, Arch

How dare Muffin list them as his scum suspects? He actually listed them AS his suspects.

He is a vet player and as such I would expect him to pick up on the exact same Mason tells I did but instead of using it to scum hunt for a town win (which I was encouraging him to do), he used that knowledge AS his scum list.

I don't buy the claim that Muffin was just dense and

accidently

named the Masons as scum. Nobody else should either.

If all the Masons pile on we will only need two of the general citizenry to complete the lynch.

[[Low Key]]

Ok I don't recommend lynching me here because I am town-aligned but lets say you do. The town still wins. Here's how it looks:

9-2 D1 LK lynched
7-2 D2 Spad NK'ed, Muffin lynched
5-2 D3 Arch NK'ed, CK lynched
3-2 D4 This is LYLO and leaves the following people: Snake, Pops, Toro, DK, CJ-Jil

Now, assuming we haven't hit any scum thus far (hahaha ya right) we have an obvious win here. First of all Snake will have already claimed Mason today and been confirmed by Spad and Arch.

That leaves Pops, Toro, DK, CJ-Jil.

Our obvious 2 scum left are Toro and CJ-Jil. Now I don't think that's going to be the case at all, in fact that is my least favorite theory of the scum here. There are guaranteed scum in this list:

Muffin, CJ-Jill, Toro, Chkflip

If we lynch from this list we win. It doesn't matter if you start with me because we already hit scum today. It will just be SO much better if we start with Muffin.

[[Low Key]]

*CK = chkflip sorry

[[Low Key]]

Oops. D4 should read:

D4 Snake NK'ed LYLO which leaves Pops, DK, Toro, CJ, Parab-Jil.

Ok that means the masons don't have to claim or even confirm each other. The scum will do that for them. Still an auto-win because:

Pops is town for nuking Snarky, DK is town because Snarky didn't tunnell-bus him all D1 if he was scum, Parab is obvtown for declaring Toro scum in the face of a DK vig.

This reveals the two scum (in this scenario) as: Toro, CJ

Now I don't think this will happen at all. I suspect as the town lynches Muffin/Chk we will hit scum there. But anyway lynch me or Muffin it really doesn't matter and the Masons don't even have to claim and the town wins anyway.

[[Low Key]]

Its just that now we have the proof we need to lynch from the list of:

Muffin, DJ-Chkflip, Toro, CJ

[[Low Key]]

Sorry Jill I corrected that in #808. Your slot is town.

[[Low Key]]

Remember, both scum are in the list from #810.

gg town.

[[Low Key]]

LOL and Muffin will be speechless because HIS scum list are the 3 Masons! HILARIOUS!!

[[Low Key]]

Notice how Muffin was like "Umm, well let's hammer Chkflip but wait a few hours first..." Then he comes back with the 3 Masons as his scum! Uhmmm-hmmm ya right.

[[Low Key]]

The head mason was a GENIUS! this game. He deserves the MVP and literally won this game for town.

[[Low Key]]

Errrm, well I suppose Pops actually hit scum out of the Evil Four so she

actualized

the win because if we hadn't of hit scum there is no way this game would be broken starting off with a mislynch.

[[Low Key]]

I can flat out prove it in-thread but screw that. Let the scum kill them one by one. They will feel its their only chance to win but in reality they lose anyway.

[[Low Key]]

Btw, welcome to the game Jil.

[[Low Key]]

Oh, and your forgot that Arch said he wasn't a mason either. I saw Snake scan this forum and his silence is also a tacit admission of non-masonhood. THere that's three of three. All non-masons.

[[Low Key]]

You are a strong player Pops and don't take any guff from anyone that says otherwise.

On Parab also consider this: If he was scum with an almost universal town read, do you think he would say "Gosh, I don't like what this game has become" and replace out? I don't. Even if he was swamped with R/L he could just prod dodge. So ya, I read his slot as town.

Right now I am grooving to the Bobby Blue Band here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs89vby0k_c

I dedicate this song to the head Mason who won this game for us as town. GG broham!

[[Low Key]]

Ya you enabled the win with your brilliant vig. Toro prob will end up having been a mis-vig. I think that's why Muffin waffled so hard on Toro because he saw that he would raise to heavy suspicion if the town found out Toro was town.

[[Low Key]]

Wow. Nice.

[[Low Key]]

2. LowKey is a town idiot, muffin isn't scum, he's just not very accurate this game. Both LowKey and muffin are town.

This is possible although very improbable in my eyes. The key is that we all can pretty much agree on the following scum list:

Muffin, Chkflip, Toro, CJ

From there its just auto-win.

[[Low Key]]

Ya I'm in the "uncofirmed town" section with Muffin. My only doubt about both scum being in the Evil Four was Muffin. I tried to get him to prove his townliness by working to lynch scum today but obviously THAT didn't happen so ya, a player of his skill, he's gotta be scum.

I think that's the key to reading good players. They don't scum slip. They "read" slip instead.

[[Low Key]]

Ya either town, masons or scum get the vig. The hilarious scenario is where the Masons have the vig and the scum bag claims mason and WHOOPS!

[[Low Key]]

Ya makes CJ look especially bad there huh?

Sorry, I don't know any techno music. But I have a song in mind for you. Here's a hint while I cue it: In Chinese sysmbolism the dragon is the highest/strongest form of attack that is impervious to counter-attack.

Song cue forthcoming.

[[Low Key]]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVUrg7Hzjo0

Take me thhe room where the red's all red! Take me out of my head that's what I said!

Ya take me to the room where the green is all green!

WOOT!

[[Low Key]]

Snarky, claim or die. I want to shoot you.

Ya where there red is ALL red!

[[Low Key]]

Yup I still think Toro looked equally as flustered but I guess we'll see.

[[Low Key]]

And if I didn't say it before, if Chklfip flips scum I really

DO

have to commend his performance. Of course the opposite if he's town.

[[Low Key]]

Scum quick hammer to discourage discussion?

[[Low Key]]

Even though I'm town aligned I know I must be lynched and there is NO WAY PERIOD that I will not be lynched this game PERIOD.

[[Low Key]]

(I mean we might be able to lynch Muffin-scum and Chkflip-scum and we win but w/e)

[[Low Key]]

Toro was very scummy this game for all the reasons I mentioned which includes his reaction when under vig pressure. However, due to Muffin's horri-terra-reads Toro just shouldn't be the lynch for today.

[[Low Key]]

Also, I just can't see Toro AND Muffin being scum together.

[[Low Key]]

So I'm like roughly 3/5ths of all posts?

Ya 7 posts in a row, that HAS to be a record. Alot of the time I think by seeing my own posts but I use preview most every time and yet the thoughts occur to me afterwards anyway... >.<

[[Low Key]]

Like right now I just realized that I am about to get slammed by certain players about this and I want to let them know in advance that I have broad shoulders and am ready to forgive them.

[[Low Key]]

Creating a vote count...

[[Low Key]]

Unofficial

Votecount 1.11.1

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

zMuffinMan(4): [Low Key], Spadille, Arch, Muffin
chkflip(1): popsofctown
[Low Key](1): chkflip
Toro(1): SnakePlissken
cjdrum(1): Toro
Spadille(1): cjdrum

Not Voting(2): DK, Jill

[[Low Key]]

The plan should go ahead not because I'm scum, but because LK is such an idiot that he can't possibly be scum and neither him or pops are masons.

I do not understand this post. I could see it as a message to a scum buddy though regarding the NK of a mason.

I would expect town muffin to weigh in on the plan in a constructive way. The response we have received instead looks like a scum claim.

I'm sorry that he is perceiving this as my fault in this thread. I tried very hard to work with him if he was town and I can't excuse his choice of scum suspects. Good players that come up with bad lists -- there isn't much we can do but assume they are scum.

Unfortunately his response here has reinforced that view.

[[Low Key]]

I could even accept the constructive LYLO-based assertion that I should be lynched first. But he didn't even do that.

[[Low Key]]

Yes, I clearly see the town motivation for delaying the hammer and normally that IS the motivation. The results of that delay were just SO bad. You see what I'm saying here don't you?

[[Low Key]]

For the moment, removing Arch and myself, who would your scum suspects be?

(I say remove myself because I have done the same for you)

I don't think you should be 'removing' me if I'm still a suspect of yours.

You're asking an insignificant question. The only player I'd be willing to rule out altogether as scum is pops. After that, there are varying degrees of likelihood, but I can't just rule out certain players and ignore them for no reason, so why does it matter what I'd do if I 'removed' you and Arch? You're still in the game. As long as you're in the game, I'll be suspicious of you until I see reason not to be.

If you check my list, you will see that I have placed you in the "unconfirmed town" section because you are probably town. I am suspicious of you too but definitely not TODAY. If we can both hit scum TODAY you will be confirmed town and we auto-win.

Look we both called out Snarky. I agreed with your early reads and your stance on DK and Toro. Once I realized that you were probably town, everything opened up. You are not a scum suspect for today at all. You only become a current suspect if and when the short list fails.

So who are your top suspects apart from Arch and myself?

And look, on Arch you gotta trust me on this. He's not scum. The same way I trusted you that DK was not scum.

Here is LK reaching out for understanding from town-muffin.

[[Low Key]]

@Muffin: If you are town you will try and figure out why I'm declaring you as scum and how I could come to such a conclusion. When you have done that we can work together to lynch scum today. Otherwise I only want your lynch.

And again...

[[Low Key]]

When the head mason tells me to do it I will. But I guess that's off the table.

Scum are here: Muffin, CJ, Toro, Chkflip.

Guaranteed scum in that list.

Town muffin should have been weighing in on this in a substantive way.

[[Low Key]]

I re-ISO'ed Muffin and I see alot of possible scum motivation throughout his posts. That in combination with his terrible scum list and recent behavior (and also even the fact that he is an experienced and dangerous player) reinforces my thoughts that he is a good lynch for today.

[[Low Key]]

Unofficial

Votecount 1.11.1

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

zMuffinMan(4): [Low Key], Spadille, Arch, Muffin
chkflip(1): popsofctown
[Low Key](1): chkflip
Toro(1): SnakePlissken
cjdrum(1): Toro
Spadille(1): cjdrum

Not Voting(2): DK, Jill

By my count Muffin was at L-2. If you suspect Muffin and think he is a good lynch then you should vote him (you did) but at the same time be sure to declare that he is at L-1 as a courtesy for other players.

[[Low Key]]

Here's an example of a L-1 vote (L-1 is a serious vote. It means you are willing to see the person lynched. If you want the hammer delayed you need to say so and why):

/EXAMPLE
Vote Spider Man

Does not count

* L-1 *

Please don't hammer until I have had a chance to review the thread. /END -EXAMPLE

[[Low Key]]

Sorry if you were trying to tarp muffin. It wouldn't work anyway he recognizes tarps in his sleep.

[[Low Key]]

Also, even though I have found Muffin to be a very opinionated player, I cannot buy that with his level of experience that he would just let his emotions run out of control and rage quit if he was town-aligned.

I

would

expect that he would try to help town. He has not done that and so, once again for the record, this is then a clear scum claim from him.

[[Low Key]]

(Granted, I don't know who his alt is but I have no reason not to give him the benefit of the doubt)

[[Low Key]]

If you are not a Mason, then you cannot know with 100‰ certainty that these three are Masons.

This statement a false over-simplification.

You missed my post where I said I can prove who the masons are and can do so

in-thread

.

[[Low Key]]

I am willing to do so but I'm thinking its better if I don't for the base reasoning expressed by your post. If asked by enough players I guess I will do it.

[[Low Key]]

I think CJ's last post makes him look bad. I have have found bad looking things in practically all of his posts. The list of Evil Four is confusing. That's why they are in the list though.

[[Low Key]]

If the head Mason asked me to I would.

[[Low Key]]

@CJ: You pulled apart the sentence. You are correct that I am not claiming Mason. You are incorrect that I cannot possibly know with certainty who the Masons are unless I am a Mason.

What more is there to respond to about that sentence?

You have failed to see why I named the Masons? I'm not going into why I did it if you can't see why from within this thread.

[[Low Key]]

"list of Evil Four"?

I never did this, as far as I know.

In fact,

you

did like reminding us of that list of four: "Two of these are definitely scum"; "TWO OF THESE GUYS ARE SCUM GUYS"; "

GUYS WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME TWO OF THESE FOUR ARE SCUM".

Not those exact words, but that's exactly how it felt. We came, we saw, we didn't like. We saw again, we ignored. We saw another time, we got the point you can stop repeating yourself.

You are in the list of Evil Four. The reason each of those people are in the list is because their in-thread behavior has been +scum and they cannot be reasonably cleared.

[[Low Key]]

Well the original list was: Toro, CJ, Dj-Chkflip,

Snarky

You saw Snarky flipped scum. With Muffin's shennanigans he had to be added back into the list but the list above (minus Snarky obviously) is guaranteed to contain one scum.

Shouldn't you be happy about this?

[[Low Key]]

LowKey: Please. I would like to see complete cases on all four of us. Period. I'm not listening to you until you do.

This is a very reasonable, pro-town request.

My case on you has already been made in thread. You can add to that your latest +scum reaction to the list itself.

The outlines of my case against Toro has been made in thread. You can add to that his passive acceptance of the whole thing in the face of immediate vig danger.

Snarky's case I have laid out in thread and you can add to that the terrible timing of his appearance to declare his vig support of Toro (out of the blue but

immediately

after Toro became the vig target).

DJ-Chkflip: I have not outlined his case yet. In general and off the top of my head:

* His ISO is filled with fluff, snipes and lacks the character of a pro-town replacement
* The few actions of his predecessor everyone has seen and know are scummy
* He has done nothing pro-town to bring himself to be removed from that list

Every other player can be at least reasonably cleared by their behavior in thread. That leaves the Evil Four.

[[Low Key]]

Toro's case is my ISO #125

Your case is my ISO #217

[[Low Key]]

Snarky's case is my ISO #22

[[Low Key]]

You can also add to your case your terrible scum suspects.

[[Low Key]]

Ok thank you.

[[Low Key]]

Still working on the Loki case.

I approve of the "pops plan" if I'm reading it correctly.

Please verify what you think the Pops plan is, so we can know you have read it correctly.

[[Low Key]]

Er-

Vote ZMuffinMan

He insisted on being lynched, this should be interested.

Chkflip / LK / Toro / cjdrum will be our lynches for tommorow.

I agree with this list.

[[Low Key]]

Maybe tomorrow will be the day that I prove to you who they are in-thread.

[[Low Key]]

Wait, how did Muffin turn into me now? This is ridiculous. I definitely missed something.

I can agree to a plan whilst having my own feelings about players.

Ridiculous jump though, Spadille, you just shot up the scum list.

Do you agree with this short list of scum (including myself):

Muffin, CJ, Toro, DJ-Chkflip (that's the list as it reads to me)

Here is the list as it would read to you:

LK, Muffin, CJ, Toro

However I acknowledge that I must be included in the list. In other words, in the first example of the list I am willing to be lynched first if the town then lynches from that list until the end of the game:

1) Would you say the same regarding the second list?

2) If not, who is missing from the list and why?

3) If not, who should be removed from the list and why?

[[Low Key]]

Unofficial

Votecount 1.12.1

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

zMuffinMan(5): [Low Key], Archaist, zMuffinMan, jilynne1991, DK
chkflip(2): popsofctown, Spad
[Low Key](2): chkflip, CJ
Toro(1): SnakePlissken



Not Voting(1): Toro

This shows Muffin to be at L-2. I think we should wait until like Jun 6th to hammer him.

[[Low Key]]

Wow I must be having brain cramps. He obviously is at

*L-1*

with that votecount.

Yikes.

I still think we should wait until like Jun 6th to hammer him though.

[[Low Key]]

Oh dear goodness.

We just accidently hammered.

Cue the Twilight music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9PCXVZt ... ature=fvwp

[[Low Key]]

If Muffin flips scum I will open the day tomorrow voting for myself. Before I die though, I will prove in thread who the masons are so the town will lynch scum and win.

[[Low Key]]

The scum know they are screwed here.

[[Low Key]]

CJ & Toro looked the worst over the Mason issue. Chkflip just lurked too much and didn't comment enough.

[[Low Key]]

I don't know why CJ & Toro have looked like the bobsey twins all game long but I keep getting that impression.

[[Low Key]]

I will update my notes over the night and have a full analysis for D2. I can't be sure what direction I will be going without knowing the Muffin flip but my gut tells me:

1) Muffin-scum -- I think Chkflip is most likely his partner with CJ being next in line.
2) Muffin-town -- I think I will be drawn back to Toro-CJ.

[[Low Key]]

I dunno. *shrug*

[[Low Key]]

If Muffin flips scum I will open the day tomorrow voting for myself. Before I die though, I will prove in thread who the masons are so the town will lynch scum and win.

Weird strategy.

Well Pops is positing a theory where I am most likely scum with Muffin. If Muffin flips scum we have so won this game and my lynch is like meaningless so who cares really, we won anyway.

[[Low Key]]

Well NK-ing pops is suicide for the scum. The fact they did that guarantees there will be a mason in LYLO. We now have an easy town win.

I have alot to say. Posts forthcoming but will be going to work as well. I'll be off work in about 1.5 hours and will seriously weigh in here.

If we all work together, we auto-win as town.

[[Low Key]]

I would like everyone to weigh in on their opinon of the following list of potential scum:

Low Key, CJ, Toro, Chkflip

Please say if you agree or disagree.

If you

disagree

please say:

A) Who in the list you disagree with and why

B) Who should be in the list that isn't and why

Toro -- not answered
Low Key -- agrees
Archaist -- not answered
jilynne1991 -- not answered
DeityKabuto -- agrees (from yesterday until he says otherwise)
SnakePlissken -- not answered
Spadille -- not answered
chkflip -- not answered
cjdrum -- not answered

[[Low Key]]

Ya do you know that everyone in the list has accused and voted CJ though?

[[Low Key]]

Ya and did you notice Toro was totally silent about the Chkflip wagon.

[[Low Key]]

Ya do you know that everyone in the list has accused and voted CJ though?

Including our known scum Snarky.

[[Low Key]]

I mean I have been planning on posting largely on my cases but ya it boils down to the first lynch being either myself or Toro/Chkflip. Chkflip ragequit for a total of 14 minutes and then immediately returned (he could of also taken it back even if the Mod accepted it) and then he suddenly declares himself "confirmed town" and repeats it later saying only scum would vote him.

The only confusing thing about Chkflip is his self-vote to put himself at L-1. The key to understanding that would revolve around who WASN'T voting him at the time.

I'll go look that up now.

[[Low Key]]

Ok here's my take:

If Chkflip is scum his L-1 self-vote earns him the right to live today. I can't read that except to think that he is frustrated town. Too many people could of hammered the crap out of him. That's not to say that he couldn't be (desperate) scum, its just that the chances of it are less likely.

If he is NOT scum that means our scum are Toro/CJ and that makes CJ the most bussed scum ever. Both scum buddies and the town have hammered on him relentlessly under pressure...

Well, ok:

Vote Toro

[[Low Key]]

I don't think Snarky would of bussed DK from the beginning of the game and throughout the whole game like he did. In fact, Snarky fencesat that vote something fierce which you don't do if you are trying to bus scum for town cred because it just makes you look bad when they flip scum -- scum fencesit a TOWNIE wagon.

[[Low Key]]

zMuffinMan(6): [Low Key],

Archaist

,

zMuffinMan

, jilynne1991, DeityKabuto,

popsofctown

POSTEDIT: What do you mean specifically Jil? Can you point out like with actual posts of his?

[[Low Key]]

1) Myself -- Even though I am town-aligned, I can understand needing to lynch me as part of the process.
2) Jil -- I don't see Parab quitting in the middle of the game saying "I don't like how this turned out" if he was scum with a universal town read from everyone.
3) DK -- Previously stated Snarky bussing/fencesitting.

As crazy as it seems, no scum on the Muffin wagon.

[[Low Key]]

Scum probably jumped off seeing that it had enough steam. ALSO, don't forget Toro was like "I"m ready to drop the hammer YO, if you all are ready to end the day!".

[[Low Key]]

If we're at L-1 I'm willing to hammer, just throwing that out there. Everyone done discussing for D1?

Dang I'm tired after this long day, I need to get back to my QT already...

[[Low Key]]

Also, "You guys will give me permission to hammer right?"

[[Low Key]]

Well I think there is a very high chance that Toro is scum and therefore he would of been the scum on the wagon with his hammer.

[[Low Key]]

Jil, where did you get the idea that Toro didn't defend himself?

[[Low Key]]

Well here in the US its late at night. Alot of people will be asleep and i know he is of high school age and so maybe more likely to be asleep under his parents' care and such.

[[Low Key]]

Btw, I noticed a post of Chkflip's that Muffin also referenced where it appears Chkflip is coaching Toro to claim Mason (remember when Toro was back at L-1 yesterday) -- where he says, "I'm ready to hammer Toro if I don't get a good claim out of him or an insufficient one". Definitely sounds like hardcore buddy coaching.

I'm serious, that L-1 self-vote is the ONLY thing holding me back on Chkflip right now.

[[Low Key]]

Toro adds DK back into the list, and wants CK off the list, noted.

@Toro: What do you think about Snarky and CJ cross voting each other so intensely? Don't you think its odd at all?

Also, what about

Snarky

mentioning that he thought

DJ

's vote for Parab was BETTER than

Pops'?

[[Low Key]]

EBWOP: CK=Chkflip sorry.

[[Low Key]]

DK should be considered conftown, whether I'm still alive to yell it. If you don't consider me conftown, well, shut your mouth until tomorrow or the day after because i'll probably be NKed by then anyway.

Wow, Pops is dead and now Toro wants DK back on the list...

[[Low Key]]

You know I was sitting there last night thinking, "Hmmm, I bet the scum will kill Pops and try to WIFOM a win in LYLO by trying to get DK lynched..." and look what pops up.

[[Low Key]]

The scum just have too many people to kill here. There's masons and people with plans, I mean they are just overwhelmed.

[[Low Key]]

Ok Snake as you already realize you are obvtown in my eyes. For the good of the town, please give your opinion on the following scum list to lynch from for the town auto-win:

Low Key, Toro, CJ, DJ-Chkflip

DO you agree with this list or not? If not please explain why in detail.

[[Low Key]]

Because I don't mind being lynched first if the town follows that list, get my drift?

[[Low Key]]

(obviously if I were to flip scum the list would be off)

[[Low Key]]

1000!

[[Low Key]]

Yes but before the town does this we need to DISCUSS and AGREE on that list. We need to iron out the differences and get it squared away BEFORE I am lynched. If we do that, I promise you I will even self-hammer.

[[Low Key]]

Strong Town

popsofctown

Spadille
SnakePlissken
Arch
DeityKabuto

Unconfirmed Town

Parabollocks -- is NOT a lynch candidate bc of Parab replace statement.

Muffin

Scum

-- only one of the below is NOT scum (I personally think CJ is the town)
CJ
Toro

Snarky

DJ-Chikflip

[[Low Key]]

Believe me CJ is scummy as all get go and we all can believe in that which is why BOTH the scum have voted him repeatedly.

[[Low Key]]

All 3 if you count Snarky.

[[Low Key]]

I'm sorry broham that I had to say that.

But if we simply apply Occam's Razor to your entry into the game we get the following:

YOU NAILED SCUM DIRECTLY AND FORCEFULLY.

Ultimately I guess, trying to come up with a theory of how you were somehow trying to bus Snarky is a little bit beyond the pale.

Could you explain again what happened on how you didn't have any notes on Snarky when you first replaced in?

[[Low Key]]

Ya I'll be forthright here. I think the fact you ACTUALLY wrote the following:

Snarky -- Not sure where my notes for Snarky are, will have to redo.

Pretty much clears you actually.

I mean what scum is going to ACTUALLY write THAT in their analysis about their SCUM PARTNER??

I mean you actually wrote it, it wasn't as if it was completely blank. If it was your scum partner, you would of taken time to put something like "null read to hard to read" or something but not "not sure where my notes are will have to redo".

I mean nobody else has that listed by their name. You simply wouldn't of wrote that if it was your partner because it sticks out like a sore thumb.

It was bizarre of me to think that you would of done that as scum. Sorry.

[[Low Key]]

I read through the thread

before receiving my role

, taking notes on individual posts' scumminess/towniess.

Could you please elaborate on this statement?

[[Low Key]]

Ok whew. Just read your first post again. You're clear because you voted in that post.

You wouldn't of voted without reading your role PM which clears you just fine.

Man I almost started to cry there...

[[Low Key]]

So now I'm certain with:

Toro-Chkflip

I have to absolutely commend Chkflip on an excellent performance as scum. He has AtE down to a fine art form with the replace-out and (errrrm) teeth of steel to be able to L-1 self-vote himself. He is merciless with his methods. I could not pull off anything close to what he has accomplished in this thread.

I will definitely nominate him for a scummy (if you can do that even though the scum lost).

[[Low Key]]

I'm willing to hammer if Toro doesn't claim or gives an insufficient one.

Psssst, time to claim Mason broham...

[[Low Key]]

I would like everyone to weigh in on their opinon of the following list of potential scum:

Low Key, CJ, Toro, Chkflip

Please say if you agree or disagree.

If you

disagree

please say:

A) Who in the list you disagree with and why

B) Who should be in the list that isn't and why

Toro

-- Wants DK added to list, wants Chkflip removed.

Low Key

-- Agrees

Archaist

-- Wants Jil added to the list but agrees.

jilynne1991

-- Agrees

DeityKabuto

-- Agrees (from yesterday until he says otherwise)

SnakePlissken

-- Agrees

Spadille

--

not answered

chkflip

--

not answered

cjdrum

-- Agrees

[[Low Key]]

Ya his response to the list stands out like a master plan from the scum QT:

1) Kill Pops
2) Lynch LK (that's OK I'm down with it)
3) WIFOM DK LYLO win
4) With a side of, remove his scum buddy from the lynch list

Toro is at

L-2

.

[[Low Key]]

Plissken is a beast. I'm willing to hammer if Toro doesn't claim or gives an insufficient one.

Wow, deja-vu.

[[Low Key]]

LOL. He is scumplaining in twilight.

He will flip scum and I will get to post another nuke for the team.