Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:55 am

In post 1377, Infinity 324 wrote:I scumread shadow's catchup because most of his questions and points, even though they may have been good points, didn't seem to help him scumhunt and looked like busy work. But your answer is fair.

What's your read on me nacho?

Why?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:56 am

In post 1379, SirCakez wrote:I came up with Leon being lyncher on town first...
If you flip town then I'd reevaluate

Why do you think Leon is a lyncher on town? Why does Wisdom?
If you flip town, then you'd reevaluate. How? Who would you look at first? Who would still be town?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:59 am

In post 1385, Wisdom wrote:true, the more I let you talk, the more it is likely you'll convince the others you're not scum. That's true for most scum.

so, in short, bullshit.

if i was scum and lying or pushing dumb points like you claim I am it'd be easy for you to refute them
if you had explanations for the things you're claiming to have explanations for it'd be easy to provide them

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:02 am

In post 1379, SirCakez wrote:Why would I do that (the gospel thing)?
I don't have some grudge against you, I think your interactions with Shadow were hella scummy and your argument with Wisdom looks like desperate scum
I'm not intentionally trying to annoy you or something

Are you going to vote Wisdom when I flip town?
Why do my interactions with Shadow look bad? Why does my argument look like desperate scum?
I'm annoyed as I am with you because every single time we've played a game together lately this has been the exact treatment I've gotten from you, and it gets old really really quickly when this is something I'm dealing with every single game. I would not be this annoyed if you were someone else or if you seemed like you didn't think when you pushed people or if it seemed like there was actually some merit in what you were saying but there isn't or if you didn't pretend like you had perfect confidence in the push against me yet again.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:03 am

In post 1379, SirCakez wrote:I don't even understand how you can compare this to the last two times (where I essentially death tunneled you).

so when i flip town here you're just going to shrug and go "yay, I didn't deathtunnel him!"
from the start of D2 you've been deathtunneling me
you managed to stop from deathtunneling me one whole fantastic day but you're deathtunneling me now.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:03 am

In post 1379, SirCakez wrote:Because Wisdom is extremely impulsive as town

this is stupid.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:04 am

In post 1387, Wisdom wrote:oh, it's pretty easy
do i care to do it? no

this isn't your response as town.
this isn't anyone's response as town.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:23 pm

Having late night Wisdom doubts, wanted to get them down before I lost them to Dreamworld.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:24 pm

In post 1446, Tammy wrote:
In post 1444, kraska77 wrote:Tammy if nacho's scum...who do you think he's most likely to kill night 1?
I'd kinda be interested in hearing nacho's response to that before I say what I think.

Kagami.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:46 pm

The reason why I don't like Wisdom's interactions with me today is that I think he's like me when having an exchange he thinks is stupid in that he can't let it go; he feels a need to respond, he feels a need to shoot people down. And with me especially, I don't feel like that he would just go "nope you're scum not talking to you"; in Saki Mafia when he was mislynching me, when I brought up why I thought his points were shitty he made an effort to refute them. The way he's reading me also seems unnatural; the reason why him glomming onto the Shadow thing feels so weird to me is because he usually reads me by a stick of "this is town nacho" or "this isn't town nacho" and picking out a small piece of reasoning that seems compelling to you and repeating it over and over again is a favored tactic of mine as scum to push a lynch through. I think one part that highlights where he's being disingenuous in his interactions with me is around the Leonshade thing; when he asked everyone else why they weren't pointing out why Leon could be a lyncher on town and then it turned out that the only thing that he said about him was "confirmed lyncher on town because of his reaction to my push on him". I also think that his interactions with me thinking that I'm scum ring fake because when he's suspected me as scum he's gone absolutely berserk on people who defended me; his "I am having doubts on Tammy" is soft-balling a read, and him jumping to kraska being someone who is just "falling for my AtE" instead of scumpartners with me also doesn't seem natural for a Wisdom reaction.

I think the "Nacho always townreads me when I'm town" thing is... weird. Wisdom has high confidence in his scum game, Wisdom has high confidence in being unmeta-able, and I've never remembered Wisdom thinking that I had some magical ability to townread him when he's town, he always seemed more arrogant than that I guess and I've never felt like I've had some special ability for zeroing on Wisdom town. I guess I think that he should be able to see where I'm coming from when I'm questioning his shot on Bulbazak but apparently that's crazy reasoning since every time I bring it up Kagami huffs and haws and seems extremely confused that anyone would doubt what he's doing.

I'm bothered by the Leonshade thing because from my perspective it popped out of nowhere and he's pushing it like it's 100% and he's pushing it pretty strongly in response to the "there can't be two vigs and a lyncher on scum" line of reasoning. I also don't like his I don't like his 1198 where he goes "yep, lynch Nacho today and lynch Leonshade tomorrow regardless of his flavorcop result"; I think it's fairly obvious that Leon is basically town after the Shadow shot last night for reasons I can probably explain tomorrow because they're not important to me now.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:54 pm

But then Wisdom very easily could have shot Grey when Grey set him up for the shot (which would have been an easier mislynch, sure, but counting on mislynching GreyICE is kind of silly regardless of who you are), and I do get town feelings from some of his posts that are responding to me, I just feel like there should be that moment where I look at his posts and I feel like he's really really town and I just haven't made it there yet.

Nachomamma8 · Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:26 am

And you will hear from me tomorrow after Thanksgiving weekend is officially over!

Nachomamma8 · Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:33 am

In post 1643, Leonshade wrote:
In post 1641, Kagami wrote:Maybe a lyncher on town constitutes a threat to town; then everything makes sense.
That would make a lot of sense, wouldn't it?

Not actually here yet, but this needs to turn into a fullclaim ASAP.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:51 am

In post 1656, Leonshade wrote:
In post 1655, Wisdom wrote:btw a thought I had that I dont remember if I posted is that Cakez was okay to have shaddow vigged because they have a scum doc and they would save him

but obv they didnt expect strongman
This is something to keep in mind when reading the whole Grey/shaddow lynch/kill debate. If scum have some sort of kill protection, they would've wanted Grey lynched and shaddow vigged.

you softclaimed lyncher on town
why not fullclaim?

Nachomamma8 · Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:16 am

In post 1661, Wisdom wrote:nacho dont you have more important things to talk about than leon?

i do but i'm not really around right now and so i'm not talking about those important things quite yet

Nachomamma8 · Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:22 am

i don't but it's bound to happen eventually!

Nachomamma8 · Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:23 am

i will catch up shortly; i'm doing other things on the internet and getting some skimming in before i actually dig in.
i will dig in soon.

Nachomamma8 · Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:23 pm

We just got approved for overtime for this week that I'm taking advantage of; had about an hour to do what I wanted when I got home today and needed it to close out a game in LyLo offsite; will be here tomorrow.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:54 pm

In post 1448, SirCakez wrote:Because it looked like you were trying to avoid pushing him. And because you're using lots of AtE that I don't think you'd resort to as town.
I am intentionally being very restrained with my push on you because of those past games, but I've lost my faith in you being town

This is a small glimpse of my meltdown from Family Mafia, which, surprise surprise, you were in:

Spoiler:

You continue to demonstrate that you know absolutely nothing about my meta; stop trying to act otherwise.

In post 1448, SirCakez wrote:How is this deathtunneling? I've barely mentioned you up until today
Like that's just misrep to make me feel guilty

Every single post you've made today has to do with pushing me - you haven't pushed any significant suspects anywhere else, you've just pushed me. I want you to feel guilty because just one time I'd like to realize that you fucked up and I'd like you to learn from it; never in my life have I played with someone so insistently terrible at reading me (and some people are absolutely atrocious, trust me); do you really not see how your posts today could be construed as "deathtunneling"? Where have you considered the possibility of me being town this game day?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:00 pm

Wisdom's posts after my disappearance do seem town; I've read them a few times recently, and the way that he backs off but still expresses flashes of paranoia is the depth that I was looking for earlier; I think that as scum it's hard to fake read switches like that and I can't help but feel that Wisdom as scum would push me harder when I backed off and push the "Nacho was in a losing battle and had to back away" angle. His larger explanation posts after he backed off (showing that he was thinking on how to work with me better) also looked pretty town, not a flourish that I'd expect from Wisdom as scum.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:02 pm

In post 1498, farside22 wrote:Oh as for reasons I town read a player it's well know my reasons look terrible by all, which is why I don't explain it.
I'm not sure why meta isn't enough since most of the scum read on nacho is how you know each other and what you expect.
Since I can't refer to ongoing games I'm just giving the one game reference for now.

Some of it was based on meta, but I feel like pushing back at him for not giving good enough reasons for shooting Bulba when he had stronger reasons elsewhere and explaining problems with the reasons was pushing me were pretty meta light.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:09 pm

In post 1764, Nachomamma8 wrote:Where have you considered the possibility of me being town this game day?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:11 pm

In post 1504, Wisdom wrote:I am not sure you remember which game Chain of Command was, given you referred to you and ffery being "obvscum" which doesn't make sense; you were town and ffery wasn't in the game. So, in that game I had my most toxic deathtunnel I've ever had, on Bulbazak, where each post he made not only I grew more certain he's scum, but I couldn't wait to have him out of the game. After an unbelievably toxic D1, I got him lynched, and then selfvoted in shame D2 like I had promised to do if he flipped town. Of course mafia won.

I was mixing up Chain of Command with There Is No Doctor, another game where Bulbazak had a mutual deathtunnel with someone that hurt the town as a whole (and then we got rolled because obvscum). That explanation helps; the pieces where you explain where Grey's behavior factored into your reaction and explaining the depth of your Bulbazak experience helps a lot in particular.

In post 1516, farside22 wrote:This reads as a slip but I think more like a buss at this point.
I see no reason to have the sudden tantrum switch.

It's weird to push Wisdom for the switch when 1) the switch isn't 100% (he's still shown flashes of paranoia after he backed off), and 2) he explained why he switched but the only thing you're focused on is the fact that he switched. I also have no idea why you'd classify it as a "slip" (unless you think he didn't mean to back off there???) but I also see several people asking you about it so I'm sure you'll explain it eventually.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:19 pm

In post 1532, SirCakez wrote:I think her recent frustration with Wisdom looks very genuine.

I like farside's frustration in general - I liked it when she was frustrated with Tammy earlier, and I liked it when she responded to Wisdom initially. I don't really like much else coming from the slot; I have trouble believing that scum!farside believes that the 180 Wisdom thing is a "slip/bus" and I think that the "two dead townies" mantra comes off fake, but I'm more interested in sorting you/PV than I am lynching her right this moment. PV had an adorable moment and then basically faded into dust, and with you, I'd feel a hell of a lot better with this game if you were scum because it means that this isn't your typical play.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:23 pm

In post 740, farside22 wrote:Zzzzzzzzzzzz

I feel like I'm being pranked this game.
I don't even get what wis point is.

In post 728, farside22 wrote:
In post 724, Wisdom wrote:
In post 720, farside22 wrote:I'm just being stubborn
also I wanna note this is fake
If you were town and you knew you are being stubborn you would stop it and look at things with a clear mind
Instead you just want to be perceived as stubborn town
Yeah the rest of the snip out was more important.
But keep ignoring hark.
I'll just rant at you post game about being blind.

These two posts in particular feel different from farside's reaction in Duck Duck Goose - there she seemed more restrained, and threatened to rant instead of actually ranting. I think her push back is unreasonable in general but the conviction in it feels real.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:29 pm

In post 1537, kraska77 wrote:Either way I still prefer lynching cakes first. Idk why the stuff I said on him got dismissed as bs earlier...cakes has been in almost all my recent games, nothing he put out here looks like a product of a scum hunting mindset. There is not a single novel/personal explanation he provided for the way his readlists morphed throughout the game. I look at the way his readlists changed and can't help but think this is scum following changes in the game and putting together readlists as uncontentious as possible

What do you think of him compared to Real Folks Blues? I disliked him that game because it felt like he was just sort of floating along, and he feels pretty similar to there; the only major difference in my mind is the reasons I'm bothered by his interactions with me.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:30 pm

In post 1540, SirCakez wrote:So I went and read her ISO there and yeah you're right <.<
Mb

What were the similarities you saw between the two games?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:35 pm

In post 1554, farside22 wrote:So he pushed nacho and Shadow but pushed others above them.
Also he did what infinity did in poker mafia, which is ask a player what they think of scum and then accuse the player of having said read.
It's basically a trap when scum ask the question and then uses said comment later to call that player scum.

Wisdom's also had significant pushes on Leonshade and Grey. Why do you think that him pushing me means that we're scum together? Don't you think that it'd be a smarter idea to ram through mislynches on PV and Cakez if we were scum together (since a Wisdom-me scumteam controls most of where the discussion of the day is focused)?
I also don't remember Wisdom using the "trap" on anyone but me - refresh me memory?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:40 pm

Would be interested in hearing about farside's reasons for hard townreading Cakez if they still apply.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:41 pm

In post 1565, Infinity 324 wrote:after she said she'd try to improve,

Why does her saying she'd try to improve mean anything to you?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:42 pm

In post 1566, Wisdom wrote:i still wanna know how "if nacho hasnt posted it might mean wisdom scum" makes sense

Also general reminder to explain this now that I've posted although it's mostly for curiosity's sake.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:45 pm

I'm catching up in my usual way, had no plans of ignoring you.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:45 pm

Am mostly focused on your main request which seemed to be "comment on things other than Wisdom", no?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:51 pm

In post 1604, Kagami wrote:The problem with lyncher-on-town is that the game could still end N1, even though the lyncher wouldn't be playing optimally for that to happen.

We could have compelled town-lyncher-Leon to vig all the same if we had already killed two scum, and even a reasonable player may have felt their odds of success were maximized by making the kill and hoping it wasn't scum.

I guess that lyncher on town is the explanation that makes the most sense but I don't really think it does make all that much sense; claiming "lyncher on Xykon" when Xykon is probably in the game is dumb as hell and if he was lyncher on town then the lyncher claim doesn't make sense since claiming town offers all the benefits of the claim he ended up making without being tied to a particular scum player. I don't think that Wisdom as factional scum makes that much sense at this point; I mean yeah I guess he could be playing a particularly effective game as scum but it doesn't feel that way from where I'm standing. I see a possibility where MoI forgot about that comment he made five years ago before he took a break from mafia (although you're right that missing out on that principled stance seems odd in general) or there are some funky shenanigans going on.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:54 pm

In post 1782, Tammy wrote: kay

What do you think about kraska's role knowing what my role is?

I think that it means I should know what two characters you are and I don't. I'm not bothered by kraska knowing limitations of your bulletproof with you not knowing said limitations; for one, it's a really odd thing to fakeclaim and I don't think kraska is creative like that, and for two, I don't think that kraska would lie about those limitations existing and I don't think that she'd talk about them if she were scum. If she were scum against you, I also don't think that there would have been a no kill last night unless the scumteam is batshit insane.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:55 pm

In post 1611, Wisdom wrote:also I find it hard to believe he's SK with a lyncher fakeclaim
If we lynched Xykon and he still lived it would be instaloss for him

You can argue it's the same for him being a lyncher on a town flavor but at least in that case he has the chance to win before we lynch Xykon, it makes more sense

It makes more sense but I don't think it makes much sense in general.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:56 pm

Although I do suppose "the game only ends N1 if a player doesn't play optimally" is a possible rationalization for allowing the possibility to exist, if that makes sense at all!

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:57 pm

In post 1624, kraska77 wrote:i really dont see wisdom being scum even if leon turns out to be a protown lyncher

I agree with this.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:01 pm

In post 1643, Leonshade wrote:
In post 1641, Kagami wrote:Maybe a lyncher on town constitutes a threat to town; then everything makes sense.
That would make a lot of sense, wouldn't it?

You've outed the "I think that there is another third party role!" piece of reasoning now, and this soft still doesn't make sense if it's saying something other than "I am a lyncher on town!".

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:06 pm

In post 1681, Tammy wrote:Was hoping for something way more from Nacho.

He's probably just scum

I thought it was funny that you brought up that you felt like me in Three Little Pigs because my first thought when I read this was that I understood how you felt in Three Little Pigs (although I'm obviously not as annoyed as you were). I understand why you were expecting the full catchup to happen Monday, but I don't think that it not happening should be a surprise and I don't think that "he is scum and putting this game off because he is scum" is a reasonable explanation for an absence there.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:08 pm

In post 1683, SirCakez wrote:ffs you guys Nacho just threw out a shitload of AtE then started lurking and it's working! It reminds of Musical Mafia where he did the same thing as part of the Pied Piper and nearly got away, but Cerberus saved the game.

Meta!

Using Musical Mafia as an example of my scum play is sort of a poor example when another head was the primary posting head.

In post 1686, farside22 wrote:Many sheeping without explaining coming and I feel myself hating this game more because all I see is apparently it's ok to add a vote for shitty reasons but I have to jump through hoops to explain myself more then anyone else does in this game.

I seriously wish someone at the end of this game to explain why that happens because currently it's the last straw for me at this point where I want nothing to to with mafia any more.

Don't really see these two things coming from scum-Farside.
Surprised that others do.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:09 pm

In post 1790, Tammy wrote:I actually wasn't expecting a full catchup on Monday. I was expecting something more than telling leon to full claim though.

What were you expecting?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:10 pm

In post 1694, Kagami wrote:I'm kind of entertaining Kraska-wisdom, which explains a lot of oddities in this game.

And yet is an oddity in and of itself.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:12 pm

In post 1793, Wisdom wrote:i dont see everything else coming from town farside so

I think that her response to you in Duck Duck Goose was considerably restrained compared to here; notice how in Duck Duck Goose she said she would rant post game whereas here she's ranted, she's called on ghosts of the dead to reinforce her 100% read (which is stronger language than she used there), she's talking about no one understands her and she's not quite sure why that is and she might quit mafia because of it. If she's scum here, she's going a lot deeper than I'd expect her to.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:14 pm

In post 1792, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1790, Tammy wrote:I actually wasn't expecting a full catchup on Monday. I was expecting something more than telling leon to full claim though.
What were you expecting?

And I'm saying this because non-contribution drop-ins aren't exactly unusual from me when I'm not ready to catch up in a game; I like knowing what's going on when I'm posting reads and analysis regardless of alignment but avoiding a game until I'm ready to post in it also means that I'm occasionally gone for long periods of time and it tends to snowball into worse inactivity.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:14 pm

In post 1694, Kagami wrote:I do feel like the game could be flowcharted from here pretty easily.

The gamestate is pretty cleanly split between a team in {farside, cakez, nacho} and something with wisdom in it.

I'm kind of entertaining Kraska-wisdom, which explains a lot of oddities in this game.

I would have liked to get to the bottom of the Leon issue, which would potentially clarify wisdom's alignment; nothing super obvious jumps out at me going through my iso.

Why are you townreading Peregrine? Where did your townread on farside go?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:15 pm

In post 1700, Kagami wrote:We don't know flavor was necessary to perform the kill, or if any post was required at all.

No team evil member stabs people, which is part of why I'm concerned about it. It seems like very poor design to have an dayvig-flavor IC.

Dayvig-flavor godfather also seems pretty strange to me unless I'm misunderstanding you in a big way.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:17 pm

In post 1728, Kagami wrote:If wisdom
really
wanted to kill a specific flavor, I think he'd have demanded a claim first, which would be standard protocol anyway.

I also don't think it makes sense for a lyncher-on-town to constitute a threat to town, since that could put us in the situation where there are no groupscum and we would have to find this lyncher or just lynch his target and win together. That would be pretty silly.

Oh.
Leon, you thought that Wisdom was a lyncher on town?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:19 pm

In post 1740, Tammy wrote:the feeling you gave me at gog too.

Game here and gog game are extraordinarily different games; what are you referring to in particular?

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:20 pm

In post 1747, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1745, Wisdom wrote:peregrine, he did shoot shaddow
So then Leon is pretty much as claimed.

And the missing scumkill hit BP Tammy?

I don't think my reads have changed much since yesterday. But, want to look over Shaddow posts and hear from Nacho.

Probably. Interesting in seeing what you manage to produce; my warm glow over "happy spammy Peregrine" has mostly faded.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:21 pm

In post 1755, Kagami wrote:Or Xykon just has some kind of death resistance.

This doesn't really help things because strongman.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:40 am

In post 1571, Tammy wrote:I'll be here tomorrow, probably maybe, and hopefully nacho will have posted then.

In post 1681, Tammy wrote:Was hoping for something way more from Nacho.

He's probably just scum

This is what you said in combination; I don't think that "I am disappointed that you didn't catch up today" is at all a leap or a reach from what you said. When I asked you what you were expecting in particular to see if I was interpreting things wrong, you didn't clarify and instead just quoted yourself again.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:45 am

But I wasn't talking about your paranoia on me over the entire game day. I was talking about a moment.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:47 am

No, I was responding to your suspicion in a moment, just how you were describing how you felt in a moment.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:49 am

Nothing that I've posted this game has said or implied that the reason you were bothered with me is because I didn't post one day; I was saying that you had a flash of paranoia because of me not posting for one day and I'm guessing my response was similar to yours when I had a similar push on you at MTGS.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:50 am

In post 1834, Infinity 324 wrote:I guess what I don't understand and what I think nacho doesn't understand is why you put the "I was expecting more" and "nacho is scum" in the same post if they're unrelated.

When she said she was expecting more she was referring to my play as a whole.
When she said she was expecting more I thought she meant it literally.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:56 am

In post 1837, Infinity 324 wrote:
In post 1681, Tammy wrote:Was hoping for something way more from Nacho
You mean this part? I thought it was just in reference to how you hadn't caught up.

Yep.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:59 am

In post 1804, Infinity 324 wrote:Because she doesn't look like she's trying to improve.

I don't think that following through with promises to improve is particularly indicative of alignment. I don't think that someone saying that they are going to stop overreacting means that they're going to stop overreacting; generally, the reason why they overreact has something to do with their personality or is fairly entrenched and isn't going to change just because someone says it is. There are plenty of times when people say they are going to do something and then they don't do it; New Year's is famous for this sort of thing.

In post 1804, Infinity 324 wrote:It seems genuine but that doesn't mean it's necessarily town.

You're right that farside could be annoyed because she's being held to a higher standard than townies and that this is "caught for the wrong reasons" scum farside, but the way it unfolded didn't really feel that way and it feels like there's a big enough gap between this response and Duck Duck Goose where, again, she'd have to be going pretty deep if she was scum. The situation that she's set up is basically that people are voting her are causing her to quit playing mafia which, if intentional, is like an exceptional form of emotional terrorism. I think scum are less likely to set up their emotions like this because they feel like they're being darkly manipulative whereas townies are more likely to say it because it feels like they're being attacked unfairly. Does this make sense at all?

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:00 pm

In post 1839, Infinity 324 wrote:Then I don't get your issue with what she said.

Out of game reasoning.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:01 pm

Which boils down to she's familiar with me and my schedule so I'd imagine that she'd understand better why the Monday catchup didn't happen than other people would.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:15 pm

In post 1807, farside22 wrote:Listen, I'm not sure about you but a 180 switch does happen.
I'm going to bring up biker wars as an example.
Parama suddenly stopped scum reading me to just switch back.
If multiple players still scum read you and wisdom as scum can just push a mislynch on me today, fake I guess I was wrong and go back to calling you scum, how is that anything at all when he was never satisfied with your response in the first place?
That's why the switch reads fake as fuck.

No one's denying that 180 switches happen from scum, but they happen from both alignments and so saying "haha! he switched his read!" on its own doesn't really form a case.
You point out that he can hypothetically switch, push to mislynch you, then swap back to me after he's dead, and sure I guess he can do that, but look at the situation in full.

When he backed off, he gave reasoning for backing off, and in particular, he backed off on his strongest reason for calling me scum and said that his other reason wasn't "a major part of his reasoning". If he jumps back on, he needs justification for returning that he didn't have before - this is him as scum making an already hard job harder than it should be. You're also kind of making me seem like a poor, defenseless baby bird here; I don't know if you've seen me mislynched before, but when I do I usually go down kicking, screaming, throwing my shoes down hallways. Wisdom is letting go of a bird in hand to chase a bird in a bush and sort of assuming that it will still be there when he needs it later; can't really see that happening, especially when you've been a decent townread of a good number of players for a solid section of the game and especially when you're the type of player who tends to push back hard.

And I mean, sure, it's possible like anything is possible but I feel like you're discounting the viewing the "leave and come back" route as a hell of a lot easier than it actually is.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:32 pm

In post 1807, farside22 wrote:Wis asked me about shadow used my response to build a case.
I see that happen more from scum then town.
What i mean is not the question itself but knowing scum buddy is scum then using said feedback later.

I can't say that I think it's very likely he was setting up a mislynch on a top townread 500 posts down the road, and I don't think that he would have been able to convincingly push most responses that you had there. I would also be more likely to buy into this read if he brought it up more than once, but, from what I can find, it was a point he brought up once and exactly once (his main points were different), and I'm not sure that a player spends that long setting and springing a comment and the only use that they get out of it is a throwaway comment.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:34 pm

In post 1810, Kagami wrote:Peregrine is of interest, but it still strikes me as odd that he'd go from non-existent to strong town between 600 and 603 as a buddy. I also think shadow's awkward RVS post is more about appearing to make the best choice for town than it is a buddy vote.

I'm more of a fan of the RVS vote reasoning than I am of the read switch reasoning, but I don't weight either of them too heavily; there is a lot more depth in other reads when this one can be broken fairly solidly by shaddowez making an odd move/not thinking about things a whole lot.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:38 pm

In post 1810, Kagami wrote:If Dayvig-flavor godfather is strange to you, why were so gung-ho on scum-wisdom? Does 1381 still represent the depth of your (former?) wisdom scumread?

You brought up the point that Dayvig-flavor IC was strange; my counterpoint was that Davig-flavor godfather wasn't any less strange.
I didn't put any a large amount of thought into rationalizing Wisdom being scum with stab flavor; Wisdom's flavor fitting his public action wasn't particularly reassuring to me.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:39 pm

In post 1811, Kagami wrote:Exploding Rune

Ah.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:46 pm

In post 1812, farside22 wrote:Are you scum reading him?
I ask because all I saw in catch up was accusing him of tunneling, which is hypocrisy at best and wrong at worst.

My frustration with him tunneling me here is less of a one game thing and more of an extended game to game to game sort of thing. I am scumreading him, will elaborate on that when I have a little time in the future.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:50 pm

In post 1815, Kagami wrote:MoI did not allow for a reasonable chance that the game ends N1, which is highly possible if we take the current situation at face value.

I'm more skeptical than you of this at this point.

In post 1815, Kagami wrote:There is no suitable flavor on the scumteam for the stabbing, so for wisdom to be scum, MoI deliberately designed the role to deceive the Town and went to the trouble of pushing that through bulb's death scene.

I'm not sure how MoI would approach this, exactly. I think there are a couple of routes he could have taken; I don't think he would place significant information within flavor intentionally and I'm sure that he's not naive enough to fall into a "all good guys are town and all bad guys are scum" type of trap.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:53 pm

In post 1824, Kagami wrote:I want to entertain wisdom-SK, but I don't think it makes sense for there to be a killing penalty then, and I don't think MoI would have added the last bit to 730 if there weren't one.

To 736?
I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

Nachomamma8 · Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:54 pm

Kagami, I think you might be getting way too lost in flavor/setup speculation.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:04 am

In post 1867, Wisdom wrote:Nacho, i see you defending farside, defending me, defending yourself to Tammy, and discussing with kagami and infinity about things.

What i dont see you doing is scumhunting. You dont seem to care at all about finding the remaining scum.

I think that Cakez and Peregrine is scum. I think there's something off with the Leon situation but am not particularly inclined on exploring it right this second.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:36 am

Coming around to Cakez has been a recent development. I'm not overly excited about pushing Peregrine when he isn't around.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:05 am

In post 1877, Tammy wrote:Now why I think it's slimy is I think he knows I wasn't saying that.

I misunderstood it in the moment, am aware of what you are saying right now. I know that you are aware when lurking is alignment indicative and when it isn't, but that doesn't mean that you won't get flashes of paranoia for reasons that ultimately end up being silly. I don't feel like I'm latching onto anything here; I made a comment that I thought it was kind of amusing that we were experiencing a bit of a role reversal from the MTGS game and you're the one who is saying that I'm misrepping and discrediting you, which doesn't make sense when the comment I made wasn't something that anyone here would pick up on because they didn't play that game.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:07 am

Magna, could you send an early prod PV's way?

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:09 am

I didn't realize the deadline was coming as quickly as it is; Leon and Infinity should probably shift quickly and make a decision. Hopefully, Andrius does replace in which should quell all doubts on the spot.

Vote: SirCakez

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:15 am

I'm hoping that PV can get in thread and do things soon because if he's not scum it's probably Kagami. I don't think that her recent contributions are anywhere close to showing the depth and excitement she shows as town; a majority of her comments this day have been dancing around circles with the Leon/MoI thing and the sum of her reads on me and Farside so far are "I want to hear from Nacho." and "My earlier reasons for townreading Farside was silly.". I think that it's odd that shes not factoring Wisdom's play into the read on him in any noticeable way whatsoever and I think that she's leaning on the Magna quote a lot longer that's logical. I don't like that her reason for townreading PV is the Shadow read switch thing; that's fine as a piece of a read, but I don't understand why she's holding onto it as strongly as she is.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:17 am

In post 1881, Kagami wrote:Could you flesh out the cakez and PV read?

If they're PoE, then a brief summary of why each other person is likely town would be great.

Things that stand out to me about Cakez are his treatment of Farside when she was gaining heat (I don't like that he can't explain why he thought Farside reaction here was similar to duck duck goose) and I don't like his interactions with me. I don't think that he'd be pushing me in this way if he was town.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:17 am

PV I don't really have a read on. I liked his opening but that's not overly persuasive at this point. I would like for him to post something or replace out.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:18 am

Why I'm townreading everyone else should be fairly obvious; is there a read that hasn't been explained or doesn't explain itself?

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:20 am

Oh shit it's Robb Stark

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:22 am

In post 1886, kraska77 wrote:
In post 1403, Kagami wrote:Fwiw: Leon being a modified lynched on town makes a lot of sense. The alternative explanations are: 8-3-1 setup
despite many vanillas
, fake claim for no reason on pro-town 3rd party, or scum killed their own as a gambit.
nacho how do feel about the bolded? i think this is unlikely to come from scum...its one of the few things in kagami's iso that make me think shes likely town

I think that I'm missing something here; why do you think that it's town?

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:24 am

In post 1846, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1807, farside22 wrote:Listen, I'm not sure about you but a 180 switch does happen.
I'm going to bring up biker wars as an example.
Parama suddenly stopped scum reading me to just switch back.
If multiple players still scum read you and wisdom as scum can just push a mislynch on me today, fake I guess I was wrong and go back to calling you scum, how is that anything at all when he was never satisfied with your response in the first place?
That's why the switch reads fake as fuck.
No one's denying that 180 switches happen from scum, but they happen from both alignments and so saying "haha! he switched his read!" on its own doesn't really form a case.
You point out that he can hypothetically switch, push to mislynch you, then swap back to me after he's dead, and sure I guess he can do that, but look at the situation in full.

When he backed off, he gave reasoning for backing off, and in particular, he backed off on his strongest reason for calling me scum and said that his other reason wasn't "a major part of his reasoning". If he jumps back on, he needs justification for returning that he didn't have before - this is him as scum making an already hard job harder than it should be. You're also kind of making me seem like a poor, defenseless baby bird here; I don't know if you've seen me mislynched before, but when I do I usually go down kicking, screaming, throwing my shoes down hallways. Wisdom is letting go of a bird in hand to chase a bird in a bush and sort of assuming that it will still be there when he needs it later; can't really see that happening, especially when you've been a decent townread of a good number of players for a solid section of the game and especially when you're the type of player who tends to push back hard.

And I mean, sure, it's possible like anything is possible but I feel like you're discounting the viewing the "leave and come back" route as a hell of a lot easier than it actually is.

^wisdom town

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:25 am

In post 1840, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1804, Infinity 324 wrote:Because she doesn't look like she's trying to improve.
I don't think that following through with promises to improve is particularly indicative of alignment. I don't think that someone saying that they are going to stop overreacting means that they're going to stop overreacting; generally, the reason why they overreact has something to do with their personality or is fairly entrenched and isn't going to change just because someone says it is. There are plenty of times when people say they are going to do something and then they don't do it; New Year's is famous for this sort of thing.

In post 1804, Infinity 324 wrote:It seems genuine but that doesn't mean it's necessarily town.
You're right that farside could be annoyed because she's being held to a higher standard than townies and that this is "caught for the wrong reasons" scum farside, but the way it unfolded didn't really feel that way and it feels like there's a big enough gap between this response and Duck Duck Goose where, again, she'd have to be going pretty deep if she was scum. The situation that she's set up is basically that people are voting her are causing her to quit playing mafia which, if intentional, is like an exceptional form of emotional terrorism. I think scum are less likely to set up their emotions like this because they feel like they're being darkly manipulative whereas townies are more likely to say it because it feels like they're being attacked unfairly. Does this make sense at all?

^farside town

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:26 am

Infinity explanation hasn't been given but I find the way that he's been engaging and explaining his reads; I can possibly explain this later if necessary but it seems like most of the suspicion surrounding him has burned out altogether.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:29 am

In post 1892, Kagami wrote:And I don't think you believe the sum of my reads on you are "I want to hear from nacho."

I certainly hope not, but that + "he has said a lot without doing anything" is the sum of what you've expressed unless I missed some juicy Kagami commentary somewhere.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:31 am

In post 1924, kraska77 wrote:therere only 2 flipped vanillas and thats hardly "many". so this is basically kagami claiming vt and i dont see why kagami as scum would randomly cut down options for herself like that when theres no need to

I mean, it's not like three vanillas is many either.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:33 am

In post 1903, Tammy wrote:I'd probably not be having an issue with this is you had ended it with "surprise" because it's the last bit that bugs me.

When your paranoia spiked because of my absence, that was the thought process behind it, no?

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:34 am

In post 1933, kraska77 wrote:@nacho well yeaah but
still makes more sense that she would think towns not pr heavy if she knows there are 3 vanillas

I can agree with this, but it's not a huge difference and it's a weird conclusion to reach either way.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:35 am

In post 1931, Tammy wrote:
In post 1915, Nachomamma8 wrote:Oh shit it's Robb Stark
I was just over at mafiauniverse trying to figure that out.

So, nacho if you're scum reading cakez, how come you ignored my concerns on cakez?

I didn't think I ignored them. I disagreed with your reasoning re: kraska because Cakez got a guilty on her, he didn't really catch her and some of his lack of conviction reminded me of Real Folks Blues.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:04 am

In post 1949, Tammy wrote:I do think it's quite a bit different when we're town together. I do think you're just fucking scum here.

I don't think that you're understanding what I'm trying to say; it's not my intention to make you want to punch you through the computer screen because I never want to be that guy in a game but I do think maybe that you're not quite understanding what I'm getting at

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:57 am

In post 1964, SirCakez wrote:Ding ding ding

Nacho isn't scumhunting at all. This is vastly different from Folk Blues and Family. There he at least TRIED to do something. Here nothing.

You should probably try to read a quote before you try to piggyback off it.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:58 am

In post 1964, SirCakez wrote:What duck duck goose?

That game that made you lose your faith on your Farside townread? Did you manage to forget about it somehow?

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:46 am

In post 1989, Infinity 324 wrote:Now that I think about it though, isn't the simple explanation that he's either telling the truth or some other 3p and wisdom is scum?

That's the simple explanation. I don't think that it's a true one.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:02 am

In post 1956, Tammy wrote:It's that kind of trolling bullshit you do to knock people off kilter. I know you're doing it, you know you're doing it. You are letting me down and engaging me in a conversation I don't think you would in the way you are if you are town.

No, you are just on the defensive against me because you think I'm trying to twist your words buy I'm not. I said that because earlier you said that my absence exacerbated your paranoia on me; that's what I was referring to when I was talking about the three little pigs moment and that's what I said when I said the you thought I was scum for not catching up because I thought that's what happened in that flash and I wanted to point out that it was silly; yes, I knew that you had concerns on me for other reasons and I knew that there was more depth than that and that's not why you thought I was scum but I was focused on that moment specifically.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:02 am

In post 1995, Infinity 324 wrote:-MoI went against what he said earlier

MoI went against what he said five years earlier, to be clear. This seems like the simplest explanation.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:03 am

In post 1992, PantherPunt wrote:I'm down to lynch that guy

It was something that was explored earlier and cast aside for good reasons.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:07 am

In post 1908, PeregrineV wrote:Plus, if you were the NK last night, Nacho makes more sense as scum, since you guys have that readback-feedback-reverb thing going on.

Tammy is a threat to me when I am scum, yes, but I also try not to kill her when I can avoid it and this temptation would be especially strong when she's had a long streak of scum games that have made her miserable and finally got to be town in this one.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:11 am

In post 1920, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1846, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1807, farside22 wrote:Listen, I'm not sure about you but a 180 switch does happen.
I'm going to bring up biker wars as an example.
Parama suddenly stopped scum reading me to just switch back.
If multiple players still scum read you and wisdom as scum can just push a mislynch on me today, fake I guess I was wrong and go back to calling you scum, how is that anything at all when he was never satisfied with your response in the first place?
That's why the switch reads fake as fuck.
No one's denying that 180 switches happen from scum, but they happen from both alignments and so saying "haha! he switched his read!" on its own doesn't really form a case.
You point out that he can hypothetically switch, push to mislynch you, then swap back to me after he's dead, and sure I guess he can do that, but look at the situation in full.

When he backed off, he gave reasoning for backing off, and in particular, he backed off on his strongest reason for calling me scum and said that his other reason wasn't "a major part of his reasoning". If he jumps back on, he needs justification for returning that he didn't have before - this is him as scum making an already hard job harder than it should be. You're also kind of making me seem like a poor, defenseless baby bird here; I don't know if you've seen me mislynched before, but when I do I usually go down kicking, screaming, throwing my shoes down hallways. Wisdom is letting go of a bird in hand to chase a bird in a bush and sort of assuming that it will still be there when he needs it later; can't really see that happening, especially when you've been a decent townread of a good number of players for a solid section of the game and especially when you're the type of player who tends to push back hard.

And I mean, sure, it's possible like anything is possible but I feel like you're discounting the viewing the "leave and come back" route as a hell of a lot easier than it actually is.
^wisdom town

If you're looking for something more in depth then you will have to wait until I have the chance to post things on the computer.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:15 am

In post 1962, Kagami wrote:This is probably a good time to go over those wisdom and farside-slot reads, Nacho. We can skip the infinity read.

I will go over those reads when I had the chance, but I would also very deeply appreciate it if you engaged what I put forth.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:17 am

In post 1977, SirCakez wrote:Wasn't trying to piggyback, it was a comment I wanted to make.

No. You quoted her post, you said "DING DING DING" like you agreed and understood what she was saying and then started talking about something completely different.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:18 am

DING DING DING is a "you are exactly right!" sound and if this is honestly an argument I have to have with you right now I'm going to drown myself in a bathtub of tears when I get home

Nachomamma8 · Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:11 am

In post 2042, Tammy wrote:Nacho what kind of excitement does Kagami usually show as town that she's not showing here?

Don't have time to show anything right now, but I'm thinking of finding a moment like in Gumball when she pushed Spector Deflectors or she pushed back against Spiffeh (?) for his suspicion on her.

Nachomamma8 · Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:06 am

Vaarsuvius, VT.

Nachomamma8 · Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:06 am

In post 2066, Kagami wrote:That was the very least of what I expected, and my experience with GI is not such that I believe I was wrong to. I continue not to feel bad about that lynch even though I somewhat like GI.

You never responded with why you were unnecessarily cold.

Nachomamma8 · Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:08 am

In post 2064, Tammy wrote:Also I was just coming in here to posit that nacho and cakez were probably both just scum because neither seems especially interested in getting their big scum read lynched, cakez' posting took some of that thunder away, but it's very lukewarm.

I don't really know what you expected from me this game that I didn't deliver on. I don't understand where your suspicion popped up from and I don't understand why it snowballed to this extent.

Nachomamma8 · Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:09 am

In post 2060, Kagami wrote:Depression is irrelevant, the sentiment is equally dreadful if you replace "depression" with "excessive banana consumption" and I'd respond the same in those circumstances.

Oh, sorry, but this is stupid as hell and you should know better.

Nachomamma8 · Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:13 am

In post 2021, Tammy wrote:Nacho literally pretending I'm not playing this game is a red flag. It's not about not commenting on the concerns I have about him, which I would expect him to in some fashion if he were town, but it's also about him not commenting about any of my thoughts on other people. I'd also funnily enough have expected him to respond to your post if he were town. I have suspicions on farside and suspicions on cakez, but he has not interacted with me on either of those things because he's pretending I'm not here. Now I didn't say that my suspicions on farside were starting to waver a bit, so there was no reason for him to not question me on my concern there or point out where he thought I was wrong. And there's absolutely no attempt to get me on cakez with him as he completely ignored my concerns on cakez, whom he's supposedly scum reading. Even if he disagrees with my reasons for my concerns, I'd expect some type of interaction with me about it.

The parts where you're guessing that I would give input and didn't are pieces where you've had throwaway thoughts and haven't really been fully engaged in the thread. Part of how I've always read you is to see what you approach me about, to see what you're talking to me about; the feeling of abandonment is when you're not reaching out to me about things that bother you. I did address your Farside concerns when you had them; I didn't address Cakez stuff immediately because I wanted to glance into it and forgot to bring it up later; the majority of your scumread there has been based on interactions with me you've never expanded on so don't really know what to do there.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:32 am

In post 2108, Tammy wrote:But the only way he is town and the interaction with me makes any sense is if he decided over night he had some issue with me playing.

Which certainly isn't the case.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:44 am

I'm trying to eat on my break because I am starving, but I'm not sure where our wires got crossed. I'll do my best to figure it out overnight (if I live until then), and if I don't, we can talk about it after the game. I'm not upset at you, I'm sorry for where I've been annoyed or snippy this game but as I'm sure you can imagine being pushed constantly today hasn't been the most fun or the most exciting way this game could go for me.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:39 am

I feel much much better about this game now even though it's officially gotten weird as hell.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:41 am

I'm surprised that Leon opted to investigate Panther over me, especially considering the push on me yesterday and the paranoia expressed over me and I think that lends a lot more to the "lyncher on town" theory than anything else although I've officially ran out of combinations for it to work with.

Nachomamma8 · Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:43 am

Thog-flavor is interesting, would make sense for the scumteam to be scattered throughout in a weird way

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:45 am

In post 2376, Wisdom wrote:1. Infinity 324 - Oracle - 2-shot Neopolitan
2. Leonshade - Roy - BP/Vig/Flavorcop/Lyncher
3. PeregrineV - Durkon - Rolestopper
4. Tammy - O-chul - Vig/Neighbor
5. Nachomamma8 - Vaarsuvius - VT
6. Kagami - Mr. Scruffy - VT
7. Wisdom - Belkar - 1-shot Dayvig

Updated claimlist if anyone needs them

Vote: Leonshade

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:49 am

In post 2375, Wisdom wrote:Pretty sure this was the answer after all but Panther being town with a scum flavor distracted me

There were 9 alive that day; it would be silly to lose a mislynch pursuing a hail mary when a very likely failure would mean I needed to mislynch four people in this game state instead of 3.

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:53 am

In post 2307, Leonshade wrote:If I flavorcopped you and the result was Vaarsuvius, we would've had no new info, besides confirmation of your claim.

And you didn't think that confirming me as town would have been useful?

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:13 pm

In post 2420, Infinity 324 wrote:And on that note, I'm silly for not claiming this before.

But I'm actually 4-shot. Last night I got town on kagami cause I was afraid pere would rs nacho again...yeah I played this role like shit.

Anyway pere can rolestop me tonight and I'll investigate nacho. Even if we're sure nacho is scum it doesn't hurt to get another shot. So we can lynch wisdom or someone today

or leon
tammy also has pew pew pew which will allow her to eliminate an extra suspect!

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:19 pm

silly but roles this game have been kind of silly in general

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:21 pm

I won't be able to beat magna to the flip

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:22 pm

In post 2436, Wisdom wrote:Lynch Leon
Peregrine rolestops infinity
Infinity checks nacho
Tammy shoots me/Peregrine
If nacho is scum lynch nacho
If nacho is town lynch peregrine

Sounds like a win

pretty confident the game ends with Leon

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:22 pm

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:24 pm

and if it doesn't then that I will be more than happy to figure out tomorrow when bullshit central isn't happening

although

PEREGRINE ROLESTOP INFINITY

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:25 pm

In post 2440, Wisdom wrote:Pretty confident leon is a lyncher on tammy and youre the last scum

I hope there is a tomorrow for this very reason

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:26 pm

In post 2443, Tammy wrote:haven't you been more than happy to do stuff tomorrow every single day???

I would be happy to do stuff today but I don't think that doing stuff is necessary at this point

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:26 pm

kagami was my big worry and now kagami is confirmed town

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:27 pm

nacho wisdom kagami infinity

lynch

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:28 pm

In post 2451, Infinity 324 wrote:Me, you, kagami. Who else is voting leon?

this is halloween

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:29 pm

In post 2452, Tammy wrote:The thing I was toying with was that infinity really can't conftown too many people (was when I thought it was 2-shot for some reason) and Pere's role is both negative and positive utility. So it can save a person but it also possibly interferes with town actions, like the neopalitan.

Leon, I guess I'll just wait and see.

I thought it was 2-shot too!

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:30 pm

In post 2457, Wisdom wrote:though for real, the second nokill doesnt have any explanation other than nacho shot leon and i dont know why anyone is still doubting it

that's not anymore of an explanation than "someone else shot leon"

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:30 pm

but you keep doing you wisdom

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:31 pm

In post 2459, Tammy wrote:if nacho is scum he's probably just bp otherwise why would leon have a strongman shot if he is as he says.

why would leon have a strongman shot when Wisdom also has a strongman shot and you are gated?

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:32 pm

In post 2461, Wisdom wrote:
In post 2458, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 2457, Wisdom wrote:though for real, the second nokill doesnt have any explanation other than nacho shot leon and i dont know why anyone is still doubting it
that's not anymore of an explanation than "someone else shot leon"
Noone else had any reason to try and shot a claimed bulletproof.

I didn't have a reason for trying to shoot a claimed bulletproof either

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:32 pm

If I was scum I was dead the second that Cakez the roleblocker died and the rolecop JOAT was still alive and bulletproof

Nachomamma8 · Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:33 pm

The only way I survive that situation is if Leon cops someone else which doesn't happen if he's lyncher on scum who suspected me the day before

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:09 am

In post 2490, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2477, Kagami wrote:
In post 2475, PeregrineV wrote:I took no action last night.
why not? You had one job...
As stated prior to the lynch, I was V/LA (and still sort of am). Plus, I didn;t really know who I wanted to protect, so was leaning on no one anyway. Then it was day5 so it didn't matter.

Why not protect Infinity again?

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:10 am

You protected him last night (presumably because of his claim), makes no sense not to protect him again when he had shots left.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:13 am

I don't know.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:17 am

In post 2496, Wisdom wrote:you know everyone's roles. guess.

Peregrine role stopped me and shot Infinity.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:52 am

In post 2504, Kagami wrote:Scum-peregrin implies that scum did not protect shadow on N1.

Cakez was a jailkeeper, not a doctor; it's possible that he blocked Leon and had shadow make the kill.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:58 am

In post 2504, Kagami wrote:That's dumb.

Scum-peregrin had no reason to out that he was a rolestopper.
Scum-peregrin implies that scum did not protect shadow on N1.
Scum-peregrin had no reason not to shoot tammy last night.

By shooting Infinity, he prevents me from becoming confirmed town. Leaving me alive in 5 player means that he can mislynch me today and quick hammer Tammy in 3p.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:58 am

In post 2526, Kagami wrote:strongman makes that unclear, but MoI called it a Story Vendor for a reason.

It's possible that the role wasn't linked.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:05 am

If they are linked then Cakez would only be able to story vend twice and wouldn't be able to block claimed power without losing his fakeclaim.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:15 am

In post 2530, Wisdom wrote:tammy can shoot peregrine if you dont flip scum, that okay?

That's the expectation but I don't think the kill's going through with Xykon!Peregrine; my guess is that he forces people to commute and Durkon the role stop is his fakeclaim, which would mean that you + whoever lives will probably need to beat him to the hammer.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:16 am

In post 2372, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Town Bulletproof Enabling 1-Shot Vigilante Death Enabling Neighbor.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:18 am

In post 2469, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Leonshade was Roy Greenhilt, Modified Lynching Informed Jack of All Trades.

The ing is just his formatting for roles with multiple parts.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:23 am

We don't know that anyone else got a story, either; there are a number of players who could have gotten one but they had no reason or no chance to claim it.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:24 am

In post 2541, Kagami wrote:There's no way he was a 2-shot jail keeper and the rest of the time story vendor or some goofy permutation of that.

2-Shot Jailkeeper + Fruit Vendor makes more sense balance wise than a linked role.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:26 am

And that weakens an already weakened blocking power against a town that's already too strong.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:26 am

In post 2544, Kagami wrote:
In post 2540, Nachomamma8 wrote:We don't know that anyone else got a story, either; there are a number of players who could have gotten one but they had no reason or no chance to claim it.
What on earth would they do other than JK either Shadow or Leon. No other move makes any sense.

He jailkept Shadow and gave a story somewhere else. It doesnt make sense to link the powers.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:28 am

In post 2547, Wisdom wrote:he cant use two active powers on the same night

Unless his role PM says differently.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:31 am

In post 2542, Tammy wrote:and it totally fits the flavor. He jail keeps them and tells them a story.

Leon claims one-shot Rolecop.
Cakez can't block Leon without Leon receiving a story (which looks pretty suspicious). This means that for Cakez to block claimed power (which is the entire point of a role blocker), he has to give up his fakeclaim. This doesn't make sense.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:32 am

If scum jailkept Shadow, then scum either no-killed or Peregrine is town. The major point against them jailkeeping Leon (the only real alternative) is Leon presumably not receiving a story.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:35 am

Or Cakez blocked Leon and Shadow made the kill.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:36 am

In post 2556, Tammy wrote:Oh he's just trying to open up possibilities.

Or I'm trying to point out what actually happened.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:38 am

In post 2560, Kagami wrote:
In post 2557, Nachomamma8 wrote:Or Cakez blocked Leon and Shadow made the kill.
In which case Leon receives a story because MoI didn't create a bizarre, poorly named role.

Or... he did. Kraska's role name isn't exactly the picture of elegance and the "ing" is consistent with every other multipart role that's flipped so far.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:40 am

In post 2561, Wisdom wrote:if peregrine was scum it makes way more sense to have peregrine rolestop shaddow and shaddow making the kill than jailing shaddow

Blocking Leon also works.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:42 am

In post 2569, Tammy wrote:She was a bp enabling neighbor. She was also a vigilante death enabling neighbor.

Leon was a modified lynching jack of all trades

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:43 am

In post 2566, Kagami wrote:Kraska role name is formatted as I'd expect. The use of -ing is also as I'd expect, and is used for conjunction, not disjunction as you're claiming.

I just think he thought Jailkeeper Story Vendor sounded weird and made it an -ing.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:53 am

In post 2574, Kagami wrote:Whatever, the role nacho described is ridiculous.

Shadow almost certainly had an Elan fakeclaim and was a JK who gave his target a story.

Which means that he can't use his Elan fakeclaim and block claimed PRs which is atrocious.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:54 am

In post 2575, Tammy wrote:I just don't understand the logic there.

I made it clear that I wanted to shoot nacho, in fact I did decide to keep my nacho shot because I had last minute paranoia on everyone in the game and thought that infinity could be his traitor that was going to try to confirm him as town.

Why not just let him die when he was most likely to be shot?

Then Peregrine ends up in 4p with Tammy/Infinity, Kagami, Wisdom, himself. He doesn't win.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:57 am

In post 2580, Kagami wrote:Or he can "flavor-confirm" himself by JKing a plausible kill victim and ride it to victory.

And cannot block claimed power roles at all.
And he only has two shots.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:58 am

In post 2585, Kagami wrote:Tammy's shot is gone, peregrin would have won.

If he makes it here in time.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:59 am

In post 2587, Wisdom wrote:but nacho if its separate and he used his JK, how would he then fakeclaim? "I didn't story vendor anyone N1 and N2 because I didnt feel like it"?

I'm guessing that his role PM let's him use his fruit vendor in addition to another active ability, wouldn't make aenae otherwise.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:59 am

In post 2590, Kagami wrote:Or do you mean Tomorrow? He has that problem regardless.

Problem is worse the more doubt that surrounds him

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:01 am

In post 2595, Kagami wrote:He's up against two conf-town regardless. You're toast.

He's up against Wisdom and Tammy. If Tammy waffles, Peregrine wins.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:02 am

It doesnt make sense to hammer immediately and confirm himself as scum when he can take his time and set up for Tammy hesitation tomorrow.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:05 am

In post 2602, Kagami wrote:waffles on what? She knows she shot you, who you claim will flip VT. Peregrin is a rolestopper. There's no waffling, she's not a fool.

No reason not to increase chances here.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:07 am

I mean he role stopped Infinity last night. He knew Infinity was a power role. His reason for not targeting Infinity again was "yeah that's what I was going to do".

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:16 am

In post 2621, Tammy wrote:Actually wisdom is weirding me out. If there's four it's wisdom/nacho.

In post 2622, Kagami wrote:I've been thinking about it, but nothing wisdom could be makes lynching nacho bad.

This is silly.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:17 am

Giving a jailkeeper that's linked to the story vendor means that his fakeclaim would be completely ruined and that doesn't make sense with the amount of power in the game.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:20 am

In post 2626, Kagami wrote:Don't worry nacho, no one is lynching wisdom.

Does your schedule allow you to be around at this time on Wednesday?

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:25 am

But we can guess it's probably Elan. Story Vendor makes no sense from anyone else and Elan is suspiciously missing from claims.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:26 am

In post 2634, Kagami wrote:
In post 2630, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 2626, Kagami wrote:Don't worry nacho, no one is lynching wisdom.
Does your schedule allow you to be around at this time on Wednesday?
No, no chance at all.

Then we should probably find a time to hammer where you could show up tomorrow near the beginning of the day so Peregrine can't just hammer at his leisure.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:29 am

And remember that night starts when MoI closes the thread as well, so you need a cushion.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:29 am

Peregrine, you should probably vote now.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:34 am

In post 2646, Wisdom wrote:
In post 2643, Nachomamma8 wrote:Peregrine, you should probably vote now.
call me paranoid but this sounds like he's telling him to vote me

I wanted his vote down on me so we wouldn't have to worry about him hammering at a bad time.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:34 am

And now he could hammer and know that Kagami wouldn't be able to make it back around when Night ends.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:35 am

Welp.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:36 am

Kagami please try to make it in just for a second! I'm sure Magna will open Day right on the dot due to the nature of the lynch.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:37 am

In post 2656, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2655, Wisdom wrote:well yeah it's probably peregrine
Do you have reason to believe the game is not over?

Stop throwing shade.
Game isn't over and there's no reason for you not to true claim now that the game is a race tomorrow - claim Xykon, revel in the fact that claiming scum isn't against your win condition at this point.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:39 am

In post 2660, PeregrineV wrote:And no answer.

I'll checkback later. Maybe Nacho is loved.

lol

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:39 am

In post 2663, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2659, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 2656, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2655, Wisdom wrote:well yeah it's probably peregrine
Do you have reason to believe the game is not over?
Stop throwing shade.
Game isn't over and there's no reason for you not to true claim now that the game is a race tomorrow - claim Xykon, revel in the fact that claiming scum isn't against your win condition at this point.
Dude, Tammy shot you, you lived, you claimed VT.

Unless Tammy did not shoot you.

But no reason to think that.

Therefore you are scum.

When I flip VT, what happened?

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:40 am

Did you black out and submit a role stop on me or did scum possess your body and make you do it or...?

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:45 am

In post 2668, PeregrineV wrote:You tell me.

Tammy says she shot you.

I blocked no one.

So... Tammy is scum?

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:58 am

Yes! I was!

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:07 pm

leon strongman was heartbreaking

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:08 pm

could belkar have stabbed me?

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:35 pm

In post 2710, SirCakez wrote:I put a lot of effort into trying to make the far side slot look scummy and nacho look town post my flip
We got screwed by so many NKs failing

we weren't on the same page; i hoped that you would survive day 2 so you could possibly coast on your claim still.

Nachomamma8 · Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:12 pm

also:

In post 242, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 189, kraska77 wrote:
In post 181, kraska77 wrote: shaddow, kagami, wisdom, tammy hey guys who are u reading as scum
oh and nacho too
wraith/cakez/maybe leon

wisdom when you called me out on this post you were 100% correct.
i hit submit and then cringed.

Nachomamma8 · Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:31 am

In post 2731, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I also question why Nacho chose to claim VT when he had a perfectly reasonable 2 Shot Cop claim available to him that would have kept Infinity from busting him via investigation.

My expectation for that day was that Cakez would get run up, claim Fruit Vendor, wagon would dissolve and end up on me. If I claimed cop, then it would have been smarter for the town to kill Cakez and investigate me as opposed to the other way around.

Nachomamma8 · Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:45 am

i just wanted to push roy off a building