Micro 687: Vanilluxe Mafia - Mafia Victory!!!

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Bella obv

@mod VLA until Tuesday but I'll probably be able to post here and there. More LA than V. Posted to all games

[Fro99er]

I'm back from a long weekend of doing stuff

will catch up tonight

[Fro99er]

I thought it was pretty safe and NAI. I don't really townread her for it but I also didn't think it was worth pushing against you townreading her for it. I've only played one game with SS and I was scum so I don't really have any familiarity with her scumgame or how to read her, I was just poking her to start things off

basically my plan on dealing with S_S is if she's town she should probably recognize quickly that this is not my scumgame, so if she scumreads me then she's confirmed scum. If she townreads me then she could be either alignment still, but at least it'll be one fewer person to push a mislynch on me

If you've only played one game together, even though you were scum, why does SS scum reading you make SS confirmed scum? Is your scum/town meta that divisive that SS should pick up on it after only 1 game together?

[Fro99er]

For what it's worth I was planning on voting GL here like that ever since our last game ended. The vote on me/question to me had no bearing on my first post.

noted i guess, it fit as a response in context so i treated it as one

think bork is town. Scum probably could press here harder

[Fro99er]

you're straining the bounds of my credulity that you think because someone (who recently got snowed by you at that) just saw your scumgame that they'd never possibly roll town and legitimately misread you again; it instead sounds like posturing

oh hey

[Fro99er]

I mean duh it's illogical, it's meant to get more out of Sobolev and be cheeky. That's why I put a emoticon

[Fro99er]

that was not at all clear to me

UNVOTE:

hmm

town paranoia or bork and GL are scum together. That was pretty quick to move off GL just for GL saying "emoticon"

[Fro99er]

Of all the reasons to townread me that is a fucking weird one

Yeah it is. I confused SS and GL in the post you were quoting there

[Fro99er]

....I have no idea what to make of all of that, apart from to say that probably isn't our scum team.

Bella, why not?

I think that's the perfect bus. It's exactly how KayP and I bussed in BEES D1.

[Fro99er]

seems too messy and pointless to have been faked/ scum-scum interaction.

explain

[Fro99er]

Checking in on my vacation responding to quasi prod. On a foreign keyboard so I have no idea how to bracket. When I do Im voting bork for whining about inactives already. also because he´s scum. but mostly the first thing.

Why is whining about inactives scum? I thought it was more towny than anything. Wanting to get this game moving.

[Fro99er]

i still don't think we're understanding each other.

i'm literally saying that whole sequence looks weird af betwen scum buddies. that's it.

bella walk me through it like i'm five.

why is that weird af between scumbuddies? Because I think it's possibly a buddy reaction (I don't know that I've read more from bork and GL but more on that in a minute), but I'm wondering how you just jumped to the conclusions they aren't aligned because of that interaction.

[Fro99er]

i still don't think we're understanding each other.

i'm literally saying that whole sequence looks weird af betwen scum buddies. that's it.

bella walk me through it like i'm five.

why is that weird af between scumbuddies? Because I think it's possibly a buddy reaction (I don't know that I've read more from bork and GL but more on that in a minute), but I'm wondering how you just jumped to the conclusions they aren't

scum together

because of that interaction.

EBWOP

[Fro99er]

whining about inactives is a common scum tell.

It depends on the player.

Whining about inactives can be, "hey let me point out they are being inactive" or it can actually be town frustration with "why the fuck are there so many inactives, we need to fucking find scum and you all aren't helping by being inactive"

So the question is, which was it from bork. I think it was town frustration.

[Fro99er]

i am curious as to how you differentiate how scum-me handles that on a townie vs on a buddy

rather than jumping to a conclusion about bella's assessment of the situation, this is trying to understand why she feels they can't be scum together.

I think it's probably the most town post in the game, given bella and I came to separate conclusions over the same interaction. I also really don't see scum!bork being like, "why does that rule me and GL out as scum together" ... most scum probably just let that slide, and I think given the way bork has approached rest of the game so far, it's more likely he's genuinely curious why it eliminates he and GL as a pair rather than the small subset of scum that press this issue.

[Fro99er]

I'm right here.

It was "i am satisfied with what i have from ss and gl now and i am ready to branch out to the rest of the playerlist". Im not frustrated as much as i am unable to proceed.

I'm still catching up. People are posting as I catch up.

[Fro99er]

I'm right here.

It was "i am satisfied with what i have from ss and gl now and i am ready to branch out to the rest of the playerlist". Im not frustrated as much as i am unable to proceed.

And unable to proceed is frustration in a way. Because there's nothing to go off and you want something to go off of.

It read as frustration at least, but the latter doesn't really change my opinion that it's probably towny of you to be talking about lurkers. Scum tend to point it out much later in the day phase as well when it's been well established that they are lurkers and they are trying to look for a mislynch.

You doing it at this phase of the day just seems more like trying to get the game going.

[Fro99er]

Since that doesn't seem to be coming, I also want to know how GulityLion was perceiving it when he made 26

yah I mean that's why I asked, I couldn't tell if it was because of Eddie's self-vote or meant to be an RVS. I would guess it was a serious vote since it was naked but if that's the case I don't know why you wouldn't just explain it at the same time.

Actually, the first time I read this I thought it made GL more towny, but that was for the first sentence.

Now that I reread it, the second sentence looks like trying to keep suspicion on. The first sentence also kinda looks like GL read into what Bork was trying to get at and answered accordingly.

[Fro99er]

i still don't think we're understanding each other.

i'm literally saying that whole sequence looks weird af betwen scum buddies. that's it.

Bella I'm don't think you're town

[Fro99er]

@Fro99er - is your Bella read solely based off 80? I didn't think it was that unreasonable of an inference.

Read it again

51, 58, and 80.

51 is the jump to a conclusion. 58 is where she says it's messy and pointless, but doesn't explain how it's messy and pointless. 80 just reinforces she thinks it's "weird"

Bella plays a very cautious early town game, so I worry when she jumps to conclusions. She's my best friend on the site, so yeah, it bothers me.

[Fro99er]

I would indeed expect a scumflip from me to indict rather than clear GL (if anything) for that really abortive interaction

This reads off to me. The sentiment makes sense, but the phrasing is not how I would expect town to put it.

How would you expect town to put it?

[Fro99er]

fos froggy

. His entry reads like someone who wants to be seen asking questions actively than someone who gives a shit about the answers. Don't ask me to explain the difference, I probably can't.

Sure, I'll bite. Show me where I didn't give a shit about answers.

[Fro99er]

fos froggy

. His entry reads like someone who wants to be seen asking questions actively than someone who gives a shit about the answers. Don't ask me to explain the difference, I probably can't.

Sure, I'll bite. Show me where I didn't give a shit about answers.

he said don't ask him to explain the difference. it's a gut thing, we all have our own gut tells.

I get that. But if I didn't care I probably wouldn't be following up on them as I did. Unless he thinks I don't care about my follow up thoughts to people's responses as well.

[Fro99er]

I always look showy. You should know that.

[Fro99er]

Lowell why'd you vote bella instead of me or GL?

[Fro99er]

That was awkward from eddie.

It looks like eddie self-voted for a reaction test and then sbf naked voted eddie (but didn't clarify if it was because of eddie's self vote), so then eddie must have thought he caught someone but then cited the ISO?

Seems like a strange reason.

[Fro99er]

That said I don't really feel that she's scum for either these things; it wasn't the strongest opening in the world but I don't think it really shows scum motivation and I'm a little put off by Frogger's (due to 80? why?) and Lowell's (I honestly have no idea) professed scumreads on her

Bella doesn't jump to conclusions like that as town.

I just completed a towngame with her where I was very easily able to identify her as town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=70384

Here's her opening few posts form that game

Spoiler: bella opening posts

VOTE: charloux

for the same reasons sibs voted me

also, 2 years anniversary!

@sibs, i can't even tell what the pattern was.
<3 to the frog.

@charl, chillll. I'm gonna sort you.

i haven't rqs-ed since....my first scum game!

i generally say scum, but i've flaked a few games and just wanna play a decent town game.

Trans, you have reads already?

any others? what made this one special?

k...that was one question. try the others?

if transcend and bella are both town we are going to fucking rule this game.

-Frog

super town. you might be town?

gonna leave transcend to you for a bit.

VOTE: intermission

I'm just a little more confident in your reads? and like, i'm up for syncing with you in a bit.

do you/does anyone have any feels about charl? especially the reaction to my rvs?

And this is where I give my read on bella (that's me speaking from my hydra)

Well at first it seemed like she wanted to ask some questions then back off, unlike Intermission who kept following up on what he was saying. If you claim that's her playstyle, then fine, I can accept that. But don't try to claim that my lack of meta-knowledge means I can't make a statement about what I think is suspicious because of "playstyle".

I'll claim whatever I want to claim tyvm.

Your scum read was based off "lots of questions, not much saying"

Yet you didn't even try to bother to figure out if that's her playstyle. You just pigeonholed her into scum for that. That's why I think it's bullshit, because you made ZERO attempt to understand if it's her playstyle. So yes, I will claim your lack of meta-knowledge means you can't make a statement about something suspicious since you didn't try to understand if it really is suspicious in the first place.

I'll give you a hint ... Bella as town isn't the most confident, is pretty cautious (which she's been with me so far), and doesn't play all tryhard.

Scum bella is a total tryhard and is more confident with her reads (I wonder why...because she knows who everyone is).

And if all you think is she's asked questions with not much saying, I'll disagree. She's made some subtle points that you haven't picked up on, and instead have just dismissed as questions without saying.

She's my best friend on this site, so I'm most concerned with reading her first to see if we can vibe.

I'm not scumreading her for it showing scum motivation (it could go either way)...I'm scumreading her because it doesn't jive with her town meta. I've already fucking said that.

[Fro99er]

You could perhaps not tell me what to do. I'm a dick. Deal with it.

[Fro99er]

And i dont think that professing that two players arent scum together is "really putting oneself out there"

I have a pretty strong meta read of bella. I haven't gotten the townvibes from her yet. It's 4 posts in. It's not like this is the strongest scumread in the world of her. But for right now it's what I have to go off of.

She often makes some really sarcastic subtle points, or has these retorts that I can't explain that just scream town bella. They aren't there yet. Add in the combination of her conclusion jumping, and it's weird.

[Fro99er]

if you go into my spoiler above, her post #28 was one of those. She kinda subtly threw shade on the guy who did RQS by saying she didn't do RQS since her first scum game. THAT's the kind of stuff I see from town bella. Post 56 in there was also one of those.

[Fro99er]

That said, she hasn't been total tryhard bella here, but the jumping to conclusions stuff scares me that she's going along those lines.

[Fro99er]

Why is everyone saying I'm making them nervous but nobody is voting me?

[Fro99er]

I do see; she feels comfortable in her own skin in what you linked.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, esp in the sample size we have. Noting and keeping my eye on it, but fuck if i havent been burned by meta recently and i am probably going to keep to motivational and interactive methods of scumhunting this game, esp considering i have played with none of you personally

I get that.

I'm a heavy meta player. I also do preflip associatives. In other words, I'm the perfect player that scum love to criticize for relying too much on meta and preflip stuff. But I do it anyway, and fuck it if it doesn't work. I called the whole scumteam on D1 in that game with bella (although at the end of D1 I settled on 2 of the 3 scum).

That said, other things can move me off meta reads, but it's where I start.

[Fro99er]

Now that I reread it, the second sentence looks like trying to keep suspicion on. The first sentence also kinda looks like GL read into what Bork was trying to get at and answered accordingly.

It is absolutely meant to keep suspicion on. I didn't like the naked vote and I didn't like her response to me, I see no reason to townread SBF yet. This thought from you feels intellectually lazy, as if you're operating from a framework where casting suspicion on anyone is automatically scummy.

Keeping suspicion on =/= scummy. I never said that. I feel like you knew what bork was looking for and answered accordingly.

Do I have proof of that? No. But it's how it appeared to me on a reread.

[Fro99er]

then vote me, not sbf

Here's some wifom, but why would I push bella if I were scum? It does me no good to push her when I know she's going to initially be paranoid of me as town (because she always is when she's town). Especially after the only other time I rolled scum while bella was town was the very first time I played with her, and I pushed her there. My best play as scum is to buddy her, make her feel comfortable with me, and go from there. It does a scum version of me no good to push bella here at this stage of the game.


Also, why are you townreading eddie? I don't really see a reason to townread him yet.

[Fro99er]

Add GL to the list of people willing to scumread me but not vote me.

[Fro99er]

btw - using wifom on yourself is... something. "I've played with x and did y and z happened so logically as town I should do p." is reaching.

I do it ever fucking game.

Every game.

It's NAI for me.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: eddie

[Fro99er]

but eddie did do one of my biggest scumtells, so yeah

[Fro99er]

See this kind of thing just reads to me as scummy, lazy play. It's not inherently scummy to have suspicion on someone but not vote them.

THATS NOT WHAT I SAID

I said there's a large list of people suspecting me but not voting me. I never said that makes you scummy.

[Fro99er]

calling me out for using wifom on myself

its something so easy for scum to latch onto. And it works almost every time. I have plenty of examples.

[Fro99er]

yep

[Fro99er]

btw - using wifom on yourself is... something. "I've played with x and did y and z happened so logically as town I should do p." is reaching.

I do it ever fucking game.

Every game.

It's NAI for me.

VOTE: eddie

but eddie did do one of my biggest scumtells, so yeah

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here -- I think it's entirely reasonable to point out that if you're self aware enough to point out your self-meta you're self-aware enough to manipulate it; I don't see how your self-assessment that you do it every game is germane to his alignment

It's a scumtell i use to high success.

I do this as town or scum, but I tend to only get called out on it by scum players when's i'm town.

When i'm scum, I tend not to get called out on it.

It's not a perfect tell, but it has a high success rate.

[Fro99er]

hey btw idr if I said it in this game or not but assuming I'm still alive i'll be v/LA for most of March. going away for almost 3 weeks. I will have Internet access so I'll still be here but it'll be limited. 7th-25th to be exact. just a heads up.

Then why did you join this game?

[Fro99er]

It's a scumtell i use to high success.

I do this as town or scum, but I tend to only get called out on it by scum players when's i'm town.

When i'm scum, I tend not to get called out on it.

It's not a perfect tell, but it has a high success rate.

Can you give me 1 or 2 examples just to establish some context for your experience?

Yep. When i'm back at my computer I will

[Fro99er]

I wanna chat with him before I come down on a side of that. i'm wondering if it's all scum!mindgames though, yes.

talk to me B

I saw you have a good town game yes, but you were still hesitant at first there, which is what I know of you as town.

[Fro99er]

i'm also more :S about the fact that frog just saw me have a good town-game and is still saying the same stuff about my meta and using it as gospel.

B, why are you surprised I'm using meta?

You had a good town game, yes, but you were still hesitant at first. I even quoted it in this game. You seemed much more carefree there too.

[Fro99er]

The eddie wagon is bad and you should feel bad.

eddie and TTTT are the only strong town reads for me at teh moment. bork is close.

froggy wants a vote, so let's have at it.

VOTE: froggy

His case against eddie is based on some incredibly weak logic, and looks like he just picked a random easy target and reverse-engineered some dumb meta shit. I don't want to be that guy rushing to whiteknight eddie, but yeah it has come to that. froggy needs to go.

What part of "I do this every game" did you fail to understand?

[Fro99er]

@bork examples

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7299362 (BBT called me out for self-meta/WIFOM...BBT was scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7185807 (Aero calls me out for self-meta...Aero was scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7233708 (Sakura calls me out for self-meta...Sakura was scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7387205 (Prozac calls out self-meta...Prozac was scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7405616 (Titus calls me out for self-meta...Titus was scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7338212 (Fire calls me out for self-meta...Fire was scum)
this was ME as scum calling someone else on the WIFOM/Self-meta (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6995964) ... see...I even did my own scumtell in my very first scum game.

as scum I self meta/WIFOM too, but i'm not called on it
here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7262038 (not called out on it)
here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7135564 (not called out for it)

only other scumgame I remember rolling was as a hydra and I don't think I did it there.

[Fro99er]

there's more examples p sure but I don't really care about looking up any more

[Fro99er]

obviously both alignments do it - i do it - but I typically see scum being the ones to call someone town out of seemingly nothing.

oh like calling me out for self-WIFOM

[Fro99er]

Well, Fro99er has since pointed out that he didn't say that people on his "list" are scummy, which makes me wonder why he's even keeping it.

Because I think there is scum in the list. I'm trying to figure out who. Where are these people's votes?

I enjoy watching people scumread me and not do anything with it though. With as many people scumreading me as they are, at least one should be following through with a vote if they really believed I was scum. They should be coming at me, not sitting here saying I make them nervous or whatnot and then voting elsewhere. Pressure me if you think I'm scum.

[Fro99er]

Like, he's noted/implied that Lowell, TTTT, and I have all done this, but we can't all be scum.

I agree. And that's what I'm trying to sort out. I'm pointing it out because whenever I flip it'll be revealing that scum is most likely on this wagon.

I am now townreading TTTT and you, so I'm at the point I think it's Lowell, and his jumping on me for voting Eddie for Eddie calling me out on self-wifom without taking into consideration I do that pretty much every game is also concerning.

I can see Lowell and eddie as a team right now

[Fro99er]

I also don't think your meta on me as 'doesn't know anything/say anything' as town is kinda insulting - we both had two scum on day 1 and i went into night 2 knowing where my vote was going day three...

i'm not trying to be insulting!

I'm saying your towngame displays paranoia. Not jumping to conclusions. You even showed that in the game we just finished where we did great.

I just didn't get that paranoia from you at the time when you jumped to they can't be a scumteam.

Probably doesn't help I came to the opposite conclusion that it makes them more likely a scumteam (although I townread bork, but that specific interaction shouldn't rule them out as a scumteam)

[Fro99er]

I'm not particularly enchanted by Cain's anti-town opening or their apparent discontentment with my vote.

Why? Expand on this

I haven't seen anything from the slot that would warrant me unvoting.

Then try interacting with cain and see what you get instead of just saying you don't see anything

[Fro99er]

obviously both alignments do it - i do it - but I typically see scum being the ones to call someone town out of seemingly nothing.

oh like calling me out for self-WIFOM

derp I misread this

thought it said "I see scum being the ones to call someone out for seemingly nothing"

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE:

[Fro99er]

I think ever since his response to frogger's pressure 183 i've kinda liked his attitude (190 in particular looked town), 212 looks like he's thinking critically about GL's points and evaluating them against his own actual preconceptions and reads and meh this is starting to sound confbiasy to myself

I think I expected to find more concrete things than I did but gun to my head I don't want to lynch him

What was town about 190?

Maybe i'm just talking myself out of my read because I misread his 212 initially, but I could see "I typically see scum being the ones to call someone town out of seemingly nothing." coming from either alignment, especially because it's just stating a fact, which is something either alignment could state.

then he just says he disagrees with the reason for the town read.

I'm not sure why that makes him town.

I'm curious about 190 though, because I'm not seeing why it looks town.

[Fro99er]

fos froggy

. His entry reads like someone who wants to be seen asking questions actively than someone who gives a shit about the answers. Don't ask me to explain the difference, I probably can't.

VOTE: bella.

froggy wants a vote, so let's have at it.

VOTE: froggy

His case against eddie is based on some incredibly weak logic, and looks like he just picked a random easy target and reverse-engineered some dumb meta shit. I don't want to be that guy rushing to whiteknight eddie, but yeah it has come to that. froggy needs to go.

Lowell do you have anything else besides "I don't give a shit about the answers" and my case on eddie around the wifom stuff, which I've demonstrated I do in basically every game?

Because you're not actually even pressuring me. Just giving two reasons but not actually trying to figure out if those reasons are alignment indicative for me. Sure the first reason could be alignment indicative, but I showed that I followed up on those answers to my questions, and you just dismiss it as gut. That second reason is just pigeon-holing my play into "reverse-engineered some dumb meta shit" as must be scum, when I've said (prior to that, and since then displayed) I do that as town quite frequently.

[Fro99er]

anyway. i'm town. lowell is confusing af, bork is town, gl might be town. come talk to me.

I'm town too, I'm just not there yet with you if you are.

I agree with Lowell, but more than confusing I think he's just being shallow. I hate shallow reads, that's why I jumped on Sheep that last game.

Agree bork is town and GL is town. GL reminds me of PV or Anatole Kuragin when I read them boht as town in MAFIACEPTOIN despite both of them pushing hard on me. They both just seemed like they really believed what they were saying, even though they were wrong. I'm getting that vibe from GL too, that he really thinks I'm not playing intellectually (which I'm biting my tongue about) or with a deep understanding of the game. But he doesn't understand that my gravitation this game is toward you and figuring you out as soon as possible and that's why it's so important to me, and he also doesn't understand that I take note of how people read me. I get wary of WKs/buddying of me, and I'm wary when people scum read me but don't do anything with it.

Our reads are close which makes me feel a bit better, but I'm still relying on the meta that I know of you and I'm just not there yet B.

[Fro99er]

GL reminds me of PV or Anatole Kuragin when I read them boht as town in MAFIACEPTOIN despite both of them pushing hard on me. They both just seemed like they really believed what they were saying, even though they were wrong.

And this is EXACTLY why I take note of all those scumreads on me without any actual follow through. Because when people follow through with conviction, I can usually tell they are actually town if they really believe their push.

I'll give Lowell credit, at least followed through. I just don't think he actually believes his scum read of me.

[Fro99er]

@frogger, I'm always shallow, homeboy. I'm not here to think, I'm here for blood. You'll have to be okay with that.

we ain't homeboys

[Fro99er]

prodge

i'll try to post tonight, might be tomorrow. I work in NASCAR analytics so this weekend is our super bowl.

[Fro99er]

I've been useless the past couple days.

It's Daytona 500 today and my job's in NASCAR so i'm busy as all hell. I have things I want to say and I'll say them tomorrow.

[Fro99er]

alright, catch up time

[Fro99er]

what worries me though is that i've explained my read on the not!scum pairing, and you've only come back with 'i didn't see it that way', rather than take actual issues with that I've said.

That's because there wasn't much to take issue with. You saw it one way and explained why and I can't really say anything you said is wrong. In other words, I may disagree with it, but I don't see scum motivation behind your read or reasons.

I was just more concerned with the meta at that point, because like I said, you're usually not a jump to conclusions type player as town.

[Fro99er]

also, talk to me about gl? where's the read from, exactly. is about it the followthrough scum read? Like I said, I'm getting a lot of town vibes, but some of his thinking looks contrived. when pushed, he backs his shit up though.

GL is pressuring me in ways that I don't think scum do.

For example, post 176 shows he's not willing to just accept a reason from me and actually push back on it, rather than Eddie who was just like "oh self-WIFOM". That's the kind of stuff scum do, is not provide any further analysis and just jump on self-WIFOM.

Town instead try to give analysis of my self-meta/wifom when I do it.

There's also just the fact that tonally he sounds like he believes his push on me. I can't explain it better than that, but it reminds me of how PereV and Anatole pushed me in mafiaception. They both strongly scumread me when I was town, but I just didn't think they were scum for it. I couldn't even explain why any better than that.

[Fro99er]

also, talk to me about gl? where's the read from, exactly. is about it the followthrough scum read? Like I said, I'm getting a lot of town vibes, but some of his thinking looks contrived. when pushed, he backs his shit up though.

Also, what exactly looks contrived?

[Fro99er]

@frog, talk to me about talking yourself out of the read?

out of the eddie read? I'm not sure on eddie, but here's why I unvoted

obviously both alignments do it - i do it - but I typically see scum being the ones to call someone town out of seemingly nothing.

oh like calling me out for self-WIFOM

derp I misread this

thought it said "I see scum being the ones to call someone out for seemingly nothing"

I initially thought he was saying "I see scum being the ones to call someone out for seemingly nothing" ... which is what he did about my self-wifom. But then I realized I misread.

I'm not sure that changes my read on him. That post itself could come from either alignment as I mentioned. I just know at the time I felt frustrated that I misread what he said and I could probably have been confbiasing myself and wanted to step back and re-evaluate.

I'm still leaning scum on him to the point I've read because unlike GL, he didn't break down further my reasoning around why if I was scum I'd avoid pushing you. This was literally the extent to which he analyzed my reasoning around why I wouldn't push on you as scum

btw - using wifom on yourself is... something. "I've played with x and did y and z happened so logically as town I should do p." is reaching.

[Fro99er]

this is why I'm voting sbf. she has done 0. 0. she came back and produced nothing. I want her to take stances and start posting.

See, I also take issue with this.

Bella -- this is exactly what sheep did in our game we just finished. Just voting for pressure but not doing anything with it.

[Fro99er]

Cane is obviously Town by the way they've reacted to this slot. I appreciate the opening maneuver, having seen the follow-through.

Explain this further

[Fro99er]

I'm still catching up so I'm not there yet. My point is at the time you just voted her for doing nothing and didn't follow up with any questions or pressure. I saw Sheep do exactly that in a prior game. Just vote for pressure then to fuckall with it at the time.

Ask them questions, challenge their reads, even if it's only 3 posts. Make them engage. don't sit here and say it's a vote because they are doing nothing. Newsflash -- some town do nothing. There's no intention to find out if SBF is town. It's just an easy way to push someone.

[Fro99er]

I like Space's initial response to GL, but the followup is too superficial and then quickly written off. I haven't seen the slot attempting to sort anyone in a serious way and the times it has given the appearance of doing so have been devoid of what I like to call the fire to find scum.

See that's the exact opposite with what I've seen from GL, at least with his push on me.

Explain how it was superficial. The "too quickly written off" is something that I typically see as a scum-scum interaction, or as town changing their minds. I'll need to read the interaction again.

It's the same kind of scum-scum possibility I got from bork and GL. A push, then a quick back off for what seemed like pretty superficial reasons. (Bork and GL have since both appeared town to me).

[Fro99er]

SBF is on the goddam money.

VOTE: guilty

From the beginning and his half-assed pocketing attempt on SS this guy has been slimy. I could squint and see null, but the townreads on this slot are appalling.

"I could squint and see null"

the perfect excuse for scum Lowell to say if GL flips town. Also it's just a totally sheeped reason. No explanation for the sliminess.

[Fro99er]

Lowell doesn't operate in null reads and uncertainty.

Can you explain this?

I'm assuming this is a meta-based read.

[Fro99er]

Spoiler:

VOTE: GuiltyLion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A

@mod

-

1. This game will have public voting with 14 day deadlines until the start of day 3. From then there will be 10 day deadlines.

Day one ends March 14th at 1pm EST, or in (expired on 2017-03-14 13:00:00)

Is day 1 14 or 24 days long?

Sick.

^ is this to me or GL?

For me just 1 full game and 2 games where I replaced into a slot.

What point?

You will receive the I Am Error Achievement for this!
(For pointing out a Mod Error). I'll post a list at the end of the game.)

That last closing parenthesis has no corresponding opener.
Achievement earned!!!

Damn I wanted to be special.

Great minds think alike bork.

Care to explain the town read on me?

hey btw idr if I said it in this game or not but assuming I'm still alive i'll be v/LA for most of March. going away for almost 3 weeks. I will have Internet access so I'll still be here but it'll be limited. 7th-25th to be exact. just a heads up.

Don't worry Eddie I'll make sure to get you lynched before that

GL's last few posts are atrocious.

I can see Lowell and eddie as a team right now

^

Bork when we sync up completely we'll become a single unlynchable, unkillable super town.

out of his 31 (?) posts, around half are filler/joking. the others are almost all extremely low content as well. scum hunting doesn't work if you only answer questions, produce other content. you don't need to be directly involved in something for a discussion.

You'll want to use "spoiler=" next time.

You're welcome again.

jfc

eddie here with the "joking = scum" bullcrap

[Fro99er]

Also I call everyone "opportunistic" all the time. It's the longest word I know how to spell so I use it a lot.

I lol'd

[Fro99er]

Scumvibes from GL, not sure how everyone is seeing that guy as town. Opportunistic as whoa. Continued scumvibes from frogger, who looks like he's trying to pocket everyone.

VOTE: Lowell

I don't think town!Lowell would call me "opportunistic" here. It's simply not a meaningful or accurate description of my play, especially when the game is still early/halfway through D1, so I'm having a hard time seeing where he could be honestly coming from with that perspective.

From the beginning and his half-assed pocketing attempt on SS this guy has been slimy. I could squint and see null, but the townreads on this slot are appalling.

This line also strikes me as scummy, Lowell doesn't operate in null reads and uncertainty. The last line reads to me like it's designed to make people think he's genuinely attempting to sort me or perhaps also to keep me townreading him. Didn't work.

No, I'm not sorting you. You've been sorted. That last bit was a comment on others who are townreading you. No idea where that comes from.

Also I call everyone "opportunistic" all the time. It's the longest word I know how to spell so I use it a lot.

Finally, a 1v1.

Assemble, everyone. It's me or GL, choose sides and shoot to kill.

Not sure this has to be a 1v1 but I kinda think this might actually be towny from Lowell. Scum typically don't show this bravado around a 1v1 unless it's with their scumbuddy for scum theater.

Also the "i'm not sorting you. You've been sorted" is pretty blatant that he's not attempting anymore to sort GL. Something that scum could easily jump on Lowell for, and scum typically refrain from doing themselves for fear of being scumread for it.

Maybe it's not eddie-lowell.

[Fro99er]

I didn't quote everything. but anyways, his iso is just trolling and has extremely minimal content. there is very little content here and a lot of fence sitting: 222 is just shade, more importantly, I hate 229. he says he doesn't see it coming from scum and then proceeds to call it a null read. you literally just said it doesn't come from scum, so why would you not at least town lean him? there's just so little content and so much joking in your iso. I disagree with the notion your play is earnest; you're a competent enough player and I dislike you posting enough to stay "active" while not coming out with any actual content.

I am going to continually fight you on an SS lynch and no one else agrees with you. This is a vanity lynch that you're not gonna get. Do something else.

Don't be sure. why can't ss be lynched? what makes them so townie for you? or sell me on another scum read. Otherwise, my vote stays where it is and I explore others to join.

Then you should be pushing them for reasons other than joking.

Make me believe your case.

[Fro99er]

I'm still pretty sold on eddie town; he just seems incredibly honest in his process right now (mostly @frogger @bella, who have historically opposed that read)

We're going to have to vet this out more, because I'm seeing the exact opposite.

like 331 he could just take what I gave and been fine with it instead of continuing to prod about it, and i don't think he's doing it to read me (or fake reading me if he's scum) - i think he really does give a fuck about sorting SS

for example, explain how you think he gives a fuck about sorting SS. to me the read is really shallow.

[Fro99er]

Re-reading now.
I'm up to my infamous post 150
might have to stop and finish later
after six pages Bella looks like scum
lowell/frogger/SS/bork all get to be town for now
GL/sbf/eddie null

explain the bella scum read. I'm not sure where I'm at with her. The meta had me scum leaning, but she hasn't really done anything scummy I can point out. In fact, I liked her pressure of me when she said I just ignored her reasoning around calling Bork/GL a scum-scum interaction.

[Fro99er]

Why aren't you producing content? If you're Town, help me get a better read on you, because at the moment you're in my lynch pool.

I will say, that's kinda consistent with town bella.

Scum bella is more tryhard.

[Fro99er]

Town: Cane, bork, Frog, Low, 4T

Why are you townreading me. Other than my meta case on bella I don't understand your townread of me.

[Fro99er]

Bella has still done nothing.

Eddie's push on SS seems like a sideshow. No one cares. Sure, he can be scum if you want. But still.

OH MY FUCKING GOD

the amount of "this person has done nothing" this game is seriously frustrating.

If they are doing nothing and it bothers you, push them on it. Ask them questions. Something.

This part here about Eddie is kind of shitty too. It's half-assed challenging eddie without really challenging eddie.

[Fro99er]

TTTT you really need to explain your bella vote.

[Fro99er]

Bella who is scum and why?

Can you explain your tttt vote?

[Fro99er]

Bella, any reaction to me about my backing off on eddie?

[Fro99er]

*about my reason for backing off

[Fro99er]

this is about where I'm at rn, towniest top scummiest bottom

bork

sbf (came back from being idle with a vengeance)

bella

Lowell

GuiltyLion
tttt

frogger
sobolev


nobody has stuck out as super scummy to me which is strange. I'm locking bork as town so if he's scum he should keep me around for an easy lylo win. I'm going to go back and review isos tomorrow when I have time. particularly, I want to look at Lowell (who everyone is scum reading but I'm not buying), and frogger/bella interactions. I'll probably also cross check some bella stuff. I do not like how frequently frogger speaks to bella, especially since I regard her as fairly townie. I definitely have to analyze tomorrow when I'm less tired, because there's nobody I scum read enough to want to vote and that is

really

weird for me.

Why aren't you pushing me? Where did your scum read of me come from? You haven't yet pushed me at all.

I don't believe you actually think i'm scum.

[Fro99er]

I do not like how frequently frogger speaks to bella, especially since I regard her as fairly townie.

What part of "she's my best friend on this site" do you not understand? Why is it a problem for me to speak to Bella while I'm trying to figure her out? Why is it even more of a problem that i'm speaking to Bella because you townread her? Why exactly do you townread her?

[Fro99er]

posts like that are exactly why. I literally just said why I wasn't pushing you; "nobody has struck me as super scummy", "ill answer this tomorrow in depth". you cherry pick and neglect to read.

But you put me in the bottom tier of your list. I want to know why. It's not for my most recent post because you put me in the bottom tier before I made that post

Do you seriously think I'm neglecting to read? Seriously?!

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Eddie

I don't care if bork thinks he's not scum.

He's fucking scum.

[Fro99er]

@eddie: I understand your sobolev read even if I think we need to work through that a bit more; why is frogger scum?

Everything else I don't take any major issues with, even your null-lowell.

I'll answer this tomorrow more in depth when I have energy. I do not like his replies to me nor his posting as a whole.

Fucking explain.

You were just able to reply to me

[Fro99er]

i am curious as to how hypothetical town-you expects town to interact with you this game

I don't see any reason to answer this unless I'm scum

This is a town reaction

[Fro99er]

It's edgy and actually makes sense from town.

Only scum!TTTT would answer

Also scum TTTT would be giving in to him being a hypothetical town

[Fro99er]

spam some posts, disappear for a while. I get being busy irl isn't scum indicative but your post timing is just extremely inconsistent and it bothers me. just a gut level thing, but it's there and bothering me.

Explain the problem with my post timing?

Because it's been consistent site wide

[Fro99er]

There's nobody who can honestly say I'm not reading

[Fro99er]

your interactions with bella are a HUGE amount of your posting and don't really amount to much. a seemingly strong scum read (140 for example) turns into a soft town read?

I don't understand the issue with an evolvomg read.

I said my case on Bella was just meta-based. Why is it a problem for me to null read her (you incorrectly label it as a town read) because of actual content?

She also played to her town meta a bit but at this point we're beyond meta because I've seen both town and scum meta from her.

[Fro99er]

it's definitely conceivable your read could change but your bella interactions are started by you for the most part and just so much of your posting.

Object 99 posts. Bella is hardly "so much of my posts"

Again. She's my best friend on the site, I'm strongly oriented as a meta player, why is it a problem for me to focus on Bella who I have the most history with.

I did the same thing in mine and Bella's prior game (except I hard defended her there).

[Fro99er]

almost looks like it was intended to warm up to her and buddy her later on as seen in the beginning of 276 (really awkward wording) and 388.

Do you really believe I am scum who came in here to meta scum read Bella then buddy her?

The best part is I don't have a good read on her so how is this me buddying her?

[Fro99er]

it's definitely conceivable your read could change but your bella interactions are started by you for the most part and just so much of your posting.

I have

99 posts. Bella is hardly "so much of my posts"

Again. She's my best friend on the site, I'm strongly oriented as a meta player, why is it a problem for me to focus on Bella who I have the most history with.

I did the same thing in mine and Bella's prior game (except I hard defended her there).

EBWOP

I hate phones

[Fro99er]

There's no super strong solve here. frogger has ~decently~ constructive posts overall. however, noticing timestamps, it is weaker,

Explain the time stamps part.

What makes my posting weaker because of timestamps?

[Fro99er]

first: I agree you're probably reading the thread. I take issue with you saying you're actually absorbing info, because I already explicitly said both of the things you asked.

second: you voting me after I scumread you is cute

third: 403 and 388 for example implied intent to town read if that makes sense. it looks like you're setting up to buddy bella later.

fourth: I'm too tired for this argument

fifth: STOP SPAMMING AND FUCKING PUT EVERYTHING IN ONE POST

I voted you before you scumread me!

Just because I'm voting you now doesn't change that i've scumread you most of the game.

Your post against me lacked actual reasons. I don't believe you actually think I'm scum.

You just threw me in your bottom tier and then made up a push.

BTW you were the one who reaction voted me

[Fro99er]

third: 403 and 388 for example implied intent to town read if that makes sense. it looks like you're setting up to buddy bella later.

WHAT IS THIS

why are you projecting a future state of me? That's just contrived as all hell

[Fro99er]

Especially after you said it WAS buddying and now changing your tune to setting it up as buddying

[Fro99er]

No fixking way this dude is town

[Fro99er]

No fixking way this dude is town

[Fro99er]

Lol double post

[Fro99er]

fifth: STOP SPAMMING AND FUCKING PUT EVERYTHING IN ONE POST

THATS HOW I PLAY LIVE WITH IT DONT TELL ME HOW TO PLAY

[Fro99er]

Eddie what was awkward about my wording in 276

[Fro99er]

His is me directing something to you quickly

[Fro99er]

anyway. i'm town. lowell is confusing af, bork is town, gl might be town. come talk to me.

I'm town too, I'm just not there yet with you if you are.

I agree with Lowell, but more than confusing I think he's just being shallow. I hate shallow reads, that's why I jumped on Sheep that last game.

Agree bork is town and GL is town. GL reminds me of PV or Anatole Kuragin when I read them boht as town in MAFIACEPTOIN despite both of them pushing hard on me. They both just seemed like they really believed what they were saying, even though they were wrong. I'm getting that vibe from GL too, that he really thinks I'm not playing intellectually (which I'm biting my tongue about) or with a deep understanding of the game. But he doesn't understand that my gravitation this game is toward you and figuring you out as soon as possible and that's why it's so important to me, and he also doesn't understand that I take note of how people read me. I get wary of WKs/buddying of me, and I'm wary when people scum read me but don't do anything with it.

Our reads are close which makes me feel a bit better, but I'm still relying on the meta that I know of you and I'm just not there yet B.

I said the early part of 276 and this is what I was referring to. it is in the same boat as the above posts I linked, and really appears LAMIST to me. does not seem like a necessary edition to the post.

So the boldest is the issue?

Go look at any game with me and Bella in it

[Fro99er]

How is that buddying.

That's me appealing to Bella that she should be listening to my read on you because Injust saw the EXACT same thing happen elsewhere.

I could say this to any other person in this game but they wouldn't get it because they weren't in that prior game with me. But Bella was

[Fro99er]

Wait so now it's buddying if I completed a recent game?

[Fro99er]

With that person

[Fro99er]

That's my point.

How is that buddying?

Why isn't that just me trying to show her why I'm scumreading you? I dunno about you but when's i scumread someone I try to get others to see why.

[Fro99er]

another example of not reading

This is also clearly bullshit. Even if I misinterpreted you this is bullshit about me not reading and is just a lame attempt to throw shade on me

[Fro99er]

Everyone should be sheeping me on eddie

[Fro99er]

b) but, the more on topic answer is that it's the wording. you're agreeing with her, feeding her the answer. it's psychological manipulation.

How is this...

"Bella -- this is exactly what sheep did in our game we just finished. Just voting for pressure but not doing anything with it"

...me agreeing with her?

Unless you are referring to something else (before you accuse me of not reading again)

[Fro99er]

I want to hear more about the timestamps and the timing of my posts Eddie

[Fro99er]

Everyone should be sheeping me on eddie

still don't agree and I'm not sure what to do about it because I'm not sure it's easily articulated

What don't you agree with.

[Fro99er]

Besides the read in general. Like what about my points is wrong?

[Fro99er]

Why are you chalking it up to confbias?

[Fro99er]

I mean.

That was what i posted at the beginning of all this.

I kinda believe it more now if he's town?

But I don't think he's town and I also don't think one can prove belief. It's just a feeling.

So neither of us will he able to convince the other (that I don't believe he thinks I am scum and that you do believe it)

[Fro99er]

TTTT you really need to explain your bella vote.

51 is bad

I don't get what's "bad" about 51 other than my meta read where she's jumping to conclusions. I disagreed with her, obviously, but disagree =/= scum.

232 is terrible

I'm also not sure what's terrible about 232

285 made Hitler blush
No really. 285 is all about how TTTT is horrible but there's no vote
until after bork's 297
then Bella votes me in 299
realizes it was scummy af
and so tacks on 300

this is the part that intrigues me. Bella is doing what a lot of people did to me this game and puts suspicion out there but no vote to back it up. Until bork made the post and is more comfortable with it. Just the tacking on about 300 just feels town to me from T.

Also, reading over 285 again the Eddie read is really shallow and not followed up on.

eddie's is almost worse, 32 posts of...not a lot. he's quoted two short isos, which seems sketch, and there's not a lot of meat to anything.

Bella why didn't you follow up on this if it's almost worse than T?

[Fro99er]

/inb4 I'm called scum for backing off my future buddying of bella

[Fro99er]

eddie I thought you went to bed

[Fro99er]

see ya posting elsewhere

[Fro99er]

I want to hear more about the timestamps and the timing of my posts Eddie

[Fro99er]

no you didn't say anything about time stamps or my timing.

why was my timing and my timestamps scummy?

[Fro99er]

There's no super strong solve here. frogger has ~decently~ constructive posts overall. however, noticing timestamps, it is weaker, and it all feels off to me.

you didn't explain why the timestamps make my play scummy

[Fro99er]

No, you didn't .

And even if you did, explain it again to me like I'm five.

[Fro99er]

And how was my posting inconsistent, time-wise?

[Fro99er]

So you're scumreading me for being sitewide VLA?

[Fro99er]

Eddie shouldn't you be scum reading others far more for inconsistent posting?

[Fro99er]

I scum read frogger a lot more

do you scumread GL?

[Fro99er]

This where I'm at right now

{bork}
{SS, GL}
________
{TTT, Bella, SBF}
________
{EC, Lowell}

Of the null tier I think I'd lean town on TTT the most for a few things he said earlier in the day

[Fro99er]

talk to me about sbf

[Fro99er]

good attitude, good content (with just about no filler), rubs me the right way.

the joking's great and all, but I was trying to engage with you and you just brushed me off with this.

why is "good attitude" important? I have a shit attitude as town sometimes. I know others do too.

what specifically about her posting rub you the right way?

[Fro99er]

maybe I'm

ace

day1 town-reader

BELLA!!!

[Fro99er]

His entire case on me amounts to "Lowell thinks in extremes and said someone is null. CONTRADICTION!" I can make his case against me better than he can, and it only took me one sentence.

also, HERE is a good example of a misrep. The "null point" is honestly the least important and weakest part of my 'case' on Lowell (I also don't really feel it's a case, just a few succinct damning points). What Lowell omitted and ignored are the two better reasons that I already gave in thread:

1) I don't believe town!Lowell would consider my early D1 play - at the time of posting 279 - to be genuinely "opportunistic". I made one vote on SBF.
2) the description of me "pocketing SS" makes no sense either, and reads more like Lowell is trying to frame my behavior than interpret it

bullet #2 was the one that really stuck out for me when I read through it.

Also, I'm not sure what is with everyone calling people "opportunistic" at seemingly every vote. This game is about voting your scumreads.

[Fro99er]

I liked bella early game (specifically her reasoning behind her initial thing between GL/me) although rereading 215 something that pings me is

seee, tonally I liked Lowell for town, but his post with his vote for me in it didn't look like it should end with a vote for me. but

VOTE: bella

Kara! Good to see you again. Sorry you flipped red this time.

is super tonally weird - kara is a reference to a recent survivor game, and i'd expect it to be an rvs reference, but then 'i flipped red'. ugh.

feels not genuine. ["I liked generally the tone of his posts. What I didn't like is this particular post where I didn't like his tone, the thing I just said I liked"] and it just reads instead to me like it's a combination of two dissonant parrots (the former of TTTT's 158 and the latter of Frogger's 121) instead of an organic read

I actually read that differently. She used the past tense "liked" Lowell for town. So originally she liked his tone, but then decided that post was tonally weird, so she (at the time of that post) currently no longer likes his tone. Hence the past tense.

[Fro99er]

thoughts on my case against frogger? any other game thoughts?

You v Frogger looks TvT. Given the content of your arguments I'd say its largely a clash of playstyles. I disagree with both of your cases but can see them coming from a town mindset.

UNVOTE:

looks like it's pretty clear Eddie isn't happening right now

[Fro99er]

no post has struck me as scummy. I haven't thought "this seems off, let me review bella". I don't keep notes or anyrhing like that, realllllly not my style.

That's strangely where I am with bella.

What seemed off was meta-based rather than actual scum motivation. I don't mind the pressure on her. It's warranted and hopefully helps us get a better read on her. Nothing she's really done has pushed the game significantly forward or showed a scum-hunting desire. Not even in her sarcastic manner that I love. Strictly conent-based, she's null for me.

Meta-based I haven't seen happy go lucky bella like from last game. But I haven't seen tryhard scum!bella either. I've just seen disinterested bella, which happens from time to time with her as town when she's getting scumread.

Also null for me, and that makes me both uneasy and bummed out at the same time. When we vibe together, we win. Sometimes in 9 pages.

[Fro99er]

Seems like he's trying to cash out on the 1v1 and move on.

that is entirely possible and i think that's a plausible reason for scum to eject here, i just think it shouldn't be discounted that the wagon is obviously not going anywhere and that's potential reasoning for town to eject here;

I guess I'm doing the same with Eddie.

[Fro99er]

i just don't really think she's trying to find scum

see this is the biggest issue i'm having with bella.

and there are some more-than-skin-deep inconsistencies that aren't temporal in nature

can you explain these? If its the tonal stuff i'm going to disagree.

[Fro99er]

Here is my lowell read in a nutshell:
I tend to TR players who seem to be thinking independently
and don't appear to be

trying

to look town
lowell has that vibe going on

I think this is pretty towny from TTTT, unless he's scumbuddies with Lowell. Even if Lowell is scum TTTT could still be town. Basically, I see no scum motivation for TTTT to make this statement about a town!lowell.

[Fro99er]

Cane is obviously Town by the way they've reacted to this slot. I appreciate the opening maneuver, having seen the follow-through.

Explain this further

I'll let Cane elaborate and will comment on any differences in what I perceived.

Oh hell no. I asked YOU why that made Eddie town. I want YOUR reasons for townreading him.

[Fro99er]

I like Space's initial response to GL, but the followup is too superficial and then quickly written off. I haven't seen the slot attempting to sort anyone in a serious way and the times it has given the appearance of doing so have been devoid of what I like to call the fire to find scum.

See that's the exact opposite with what I've seen from GL, at least with his push on me.

Explain how it was superficial. The "too quickly written off" is something that I typically see as a scum-scum interaction, or as town changing their minds. I'll need to read the interaction again.

It's the same kind of scum-scum possibility I got from bork and GL. A push, then a quick back off for what seemed like pretty superficial reasons. (Bork and GL have since both appeared town to me).

Read 222, 231, 246.

Ok I thought you meant GL was backing off and didn't have fire, so I misread.

I see what you are saying about SS, but again I think this is a case where it's either a scum-scum interaction (backing off pre-emptively while feigning a brief scumread) or it's actually just SS letting his read develop naturally.

I think you're reaching here, especially saying SS hasn't tried to sort anyone all game.

[Fro99er]

I kinda almost wonder if this "opening maneuver" wasn't planned out by Eddie/SBF

I'm not a huge fan of SBF's vote on bella being like "THIS IS L-1 BUT YOU ALL CANT HAMMER" ... it's really LAMIST. I appreciate trying to get bella to engage now. But SBF has a really weird progression on Bella, and it's making me think Bella is lynchbait

SBF's progression on bella:
288: "I want to like Bellaphant for her reaction to the clumsy exchange between bork and GL, and her content has seemed fine overall to me, but Frog's case on her makes me tilt my head."
379: "Why aren't you producing content? If you're Town, help me get a better read on you, because at the moment you're in my lynch pool."
569: The L-1

There's no actual scumread of Bella there, especially given I'm not even sure on my bella meta read which would negate 288 about my case on her. 379 just tells her to produce content, but doesn't give her anything to engage with other than saying "help me get a better read on you" ... then give her stuff to engage with! Ask her questions, tell her you'd like a specific read on a specific person from her. Anything but just saying "you're not doing anything so do something"

That's the really easiest way to appear to scumhunt without scumhunting. Like I said, bella's town meta is kind of disengaged, especially if she's not having fun or not being townread. I think my push on her possibly has soured her to this game. I don't know.

I admit. The L-1 is a good attempt to get bella to engage. But finally. It's just AFTER this wagon formed and while putting her at L-1. It just seems all too LAMIST to me and trying to be the town leader by someone who they themselves haven't been around much.

[Fro99er]

I'm not saying they are leading town. I'm saying they are trying to appear as if they are leading town with their L-1 statement.

[Fro99er]

Are you still voting me eddie?

who else do you scumread?

[Fro99er]

who else are you scumreading?

[Fro99er]

bork

sbf (came back from being idle with a vengeance)

bella

Lowell

GuiltyLion
tttt

Sobolev
frogger

that you have, my bad.

[Fro99er]

post count and post frequency should not matter unless it is part of a person's town or scum meta.

[Fro99er]

that doesn't make someone scum

Maybe it makes them useless. Maybe it means we can't let that person get to lylo. I dunno. But that doesn't make someone scum.

[Fro99er]

right, and that's why bringing up the 1% of all posts stuff is stupid. Townread her for the content or scum read her for the content. Stop throwing around a bullshit reason to pretend she has even a remote reason to be scumread by you. That reeks of a S-S deal. Keep a townread, but throw something out that "stinks" but that isn't alignment indicative.

[Fro99er]

I'd care more to reply if you weren't probable scum . I strongly disagree with you anyways and think posting is alignment indicative despite what most of ms believes, from personal experience it can be a tell depending on the situation.

So you think I'm scum for my posting habits, and you think it's remotely possible SBF is scum for her posting habits, which are different from mine.

Got it.

Also, this bullshit about not replying to me if I'm probable scum is ridiculous. We don't have any flips, it's day 1. If you're town, we need to be interacting with each other and with everyone else in the game so that we can get as many associatives and links out there as possible. You're not making it any easier for me to townread you. You know nothing about me, you've never played with me, you know ZERO of my posting habits. So stop acting like you're the fucking authority here and you get to refuse to work together with me because I'm actually a pretty fucking good town player. No, this isn't an ego thing. This is me saying you know jack shit about me so your refusal to work with me is pissing me the fuck off because I'm trying to find scum and you're making it impossible to help me figure out your reasons for your reads on players.

That's pure scum motivation.

[Fro99er]

SERIOUSLY HOW DO YOU PEOPLE NOT SEE THIS DUDE IS SCUM

[Fro99er]

I'm pretty sure scum is in 2 of Lowell, Eddie, and SBF

It could be bella but I'm feeling uneasy about that wagon the way only T was voting her, then suddenly my scum read (Lowell) decides to go for the easy target (Bella), and then another scumread piles on at L-1 and plays the "NOBODY HAMMER" card. Like anyone was going to hammer at L-1 without bella coming back.

[Fro99er]

THAT'S MY PLAYSTYLE. YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT

You don't want to work with me because I'm your scumread. That's it. You said so before.

You haven't given me relevant reasons. You just say "they are producing good content" but you don't describe what is good about it or why.

[Fro99er]

good attitude, good content (with just about no filler), rubs me the right way.

the joking's great and all, but I was trying to engage with you and you just brushed me off with this.

why is "good attitude" important? I have a shit attitude as town sometimes. I know others do too.

what specifically about her posting rub you the right way?

good attitude does not mean literal "good attitude" as the dictionary defines it. I like her attitude in regards to the game, it's a tone type read though perhaps I should've clarified initially so my bad.

anyways, i have no intention of voting bella as it stands. I'll reread her I guess.

though I will say sbf sinks having literally 1% of all posts, granted with good quality in those

THIS is all you ever gave me about SBF. That's it. No reasons. Just "good quality" ... not WHY they are of good quality or WHAT about them specifically is good quality.

[Fro99er]

Yes, give me what you have on SBF.

Analyze her posts. Break them down.

Do it.

[Fro99er]

Eddie why are you scumreading me again?

Because I post a lot? Because I post intermittently?

What are your reasons?

[Fro99er]

Look at eddie.

I ask him a question and he won't answer and then tries to make me answer the question despite me asking first.

This is pure scumfuckery.

[Fro99er]

when I start asking him the same tedious and annoying questions he's spamming me with he cops out

no, I'm not copping out. I'll happily answer.

But you pulling this "you do it first" bullshit is fucking lame

[Fro99er]

For SBF go look at 585

that's all you need.

[Fro99er]

For you it's because your scum read of me is manufactured. Your read of me comes down to "you hate my posting style", "i posted too much about bella", and "i'm posting intermittently"

I'm also scumreading you because you did my scumtell, which I've used to great success. Unlike GL who actually analyzed my self-wifom as to why it might not be correct. You just took the lazy scum way and called me out for it.

[Fro99er]

Lowell's initial read on me was manufactured as well. He said "I don't give a shit about answers" when I clearly followed up on them.

His scum read on GL is crap, especially the part about GL trying to "pocket" SS...GL never tried to pocket SS, because GL didn't townread SS at that point!

He's called me out for reverse engineering some dumb meta shit, and I've already told him that's something I do almost every game.

Lowell do you have anything else besides "I don't give a shit about the answers" and my case on eddie around the wifom stuff, which I've demonstrated I do in basically every game?

Because you're not actually even pressuring me. Just giving two reasons but not actually trying to figure out if those reasons are alignment indicative for me. Sure the first reason could be alignment indicative, but I showed that I followed up on those answers to my questions, and you just dismiss it as gut. That second reason is just pigeon-holing my play into "reverse-engineered some dumb meta shit" as must be scum, when I've said (prior to that, and since then displayed) I do that as town quite frequently.

I don't think Lowell actually has a valid reason for scumreading me, and that sets off bells. He's just coming up with shallow reasons to scumread me.

[Fro99er]

why are you townreading everyone except Lowell sbf and myself?

I'm not townreading Bella. She's null for me, but I'm wary of the wagon on her.

[Fro99er]

Your turn.

[Fro99er]

I JUST EXPLAINED WHY SHE'S NULL

let me dig up the post...AGAIN

[Fro99er]

no post has struck me as scummy. I haven't thought "this seems off, let me review bella". I don't keep notes or anyrhing like that, realllllly not my style.

That's strangely where I am with bella.

What seemed off was meta-based rather than actual scum motivation. I don't mind the pressure on her. It's warranted and hopefully helps us get a better read on her. Nothing she's really done has pushed the game significantly forward or showed a scum-hunting desire. Not even in her sarcastic manner that I love. Strictly conent-based, she's null for me.

Meta-based I haven't seen happy go lucky bella like from last game. But I haven't seen tryhard scum!bella either. I've just seen disinterested bella, which happens from time to time with her as town when she's getting scumread.

Also null for me, and that makes me both uneasy and bummed out at the same time. When we vibe together, we win. Sometimes in 9 pages.

[Fro99er]

Fine.

I'm also scumreading you because you're being dodgy with the questions I'm asking you. Refusing to answer them. You refuse to work together with me to try to solve the game. You have zero interest in properly replying to me about SBF.

there. More reasons.

[Fro99er]

ANSEWR MY FUCKING QUESTIONS TROLL

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Eddie

policy at this point and I don't evne fuckin care. He's scum anyway, but I'm not playing with this idiot anymore.

[Fro99er]

You know what.

Bella's not even here, that's why I signed up to play.

Have fun all


UNVOTE:

@Mod replace out

[Fro99er]

If i'm not having fun I'm not gonna play anymore. it's as simple as that.

It's why's I siteflaked a year ago. Because no games were fun.

This game was fun for most of it until just now even with Bella mostly missing. You made it unbearable for me and Bella's not here to help me salvage any fun from the game. If she was I'd give staying in a chance.

But I know the rest of the game is going to go this way and I'm not going to subject myself or the rest of the playerlist to your pettiness around me.

I've enjoyed playing with the rest of you

[Fro99er]

Fine I'll stay in

I don't even know who you are so I dunno why you'd in because of me

[Fro99er]

@Ari I unvoted on this page

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Eddie

[Fro99er]

Says lowell, who voting the non-factor Bella

[Fro99er]

I liked bella early game (specifically her reasoning behind her initial thing between GL/me) although rereading 215 something that pings me is

seee, tonally I liked Lowell for town, but his post with his vote for me in it didn't look like it should end with a vote for me. but

VOTE: bella

Kara! Good to see you again. Sorry you flipped red this time.

is super tonally weird - kara is a reference to a recent survivor game, and i'd expect it to be an rvs reference, but then 'i flipped red'. ugh.

feels not genuine. ["I liked generally the tone of his posts. What I didn't like is this particular post where I didn't like his tone, the thing I just said I liked"] and it just reads instead to me like it's a combination of two dissonant parrots (the former of TTTT's 158 and the latter of Frogger's 121) instead of an organic read

I actually read that differently. She used the past tense "liked" Lowell for town. So originally she liked his tone, but then decided that post was tonally weird, so she (at the time of that post) currently no longer likes his tone. Hence the past tense.

i just don't really think she's trying to find scum

see this is the biggest issue i'm having with bella.

and there are some more-than-skin-deep inconsistencies that aren't temporal in nature

can you explain these? If its the tonal stuff i'm going to disagree.

Bork can you talk to me about this

[Fro99er]

Alright yeah good call on it being the second post re: tone

I missed that

[Fro99er]

I guess I can go with Bella as a deadline vote.

I don't feel great about it but I don't feel awful about it. Don't really like lynching a VLA player that can't defend herself.

[Fro99er]

It is far too easy and scum would be motivated to lock this in. This is a status quo lynch.

Then who is scum on the Bella wagon?

[Fro99er]

I don't scumread Bella, I am voting her for pressure. This slot is the best place for my vote right now. I asked her pointed questions and when she answers satisfactorily them I will unvote.

I believe Bellaphant is a mislynch. 51 strikes me as having a very natural, Townie tone to it. Her comment mirrored my thoughts exactly. As I see it, she looks to be trying to sort throughout her ISO and is not merely keeping up appearances. Her content is not bad until her last two posts. From my point of view this is not a good Day 1 lynch. It is far too easy and scum would be motivated to lock this in. This is a status quo lynch.

I just don't understand why you believe bella is a mislynch, yet voted her for pressure and had no better place for your vote.

If you townread her, as your latter post indicates, why not instead vote your scumreads instead of putting someone you are townreading at L-1?

So if you think Bella is a scum motivated mislynch, why are you not looking to her wagon for your vote? (maybe you are with Bork, but then you should be voting him)

VOTE: SBF

[Fro99er]

Please think before you post, Frog.

don't ever say this to me again.

I ALWAYS think before I post. I am literally always thinking about my games.

[Fro99er]

I believe Bellaphant is a mislynch. 51 strikes me as having a very natural, Townie tone to it.

HOW IS THIS NOT TOWNREADING HER

"mislynch"

"townie tone"

[Fro99er]

You haven't even answered who is scum from the Bella wagon.

You think literally the three people voting her now are on the town side, then how is it a scum motivated mislynch?

[Fro99er]

Putting someone at L-1 with EoD approaching is in fact an excellent way to determine the motivation of other slots. Do you think that GL offers to hammer if I don't have Bellaphant at L-1? I am not TRing her. She is null. Please think before you post, Frog.

{Cane, Frog,

Low

}
{

bork, 4T

}
{Bella}
{}
{GL, Space}

Those are the three voting Bella, other than you were for the L-1 vote.

[Fro99er]

From my point of view this is not a good Day 1 lynch. It is far too easy and scum would be motivated to lock this in.

THEN WHO ARE THE SCUM LOCKING THIS IN

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE:

SS we don't have a ton of time for your case. Make it now.

[Fro99er]

not that I would consider you to be scum end of story put a noose on it.

bork why did you cut this part of it?

also your post there is predicated on SS being town. But SBF clearly says "IF" (and even says it's not scum end of story)

Could be SS scum and you town, which kinda appears how SBF is thinking with her reads as is.

[Fro99er]

Heading to bed so will have to make my longer post tomorrow

SS, sorry I was wanting this sooner than later. Because tomorrow is getting really close to deadline. I'm worried you're putting this off for a reason.

[Fro99er]

Bork we're gonna disagree here. I heavily use meta. Heavily. That's my playstyle. I think there are certain things that can't be faked by most people (there are a few I cannot get a meta read on, so I don't try to).

It's really situationally dependent, TBH. I know bella has a pretty divisive meta, but I've also seen things from her meta that work as town and scum so the meta part is null.

Other people I can soul meta read, clear as day.

[Fro99er]

I am showing SBF is not saying what i did quote (thus implying that she is also not saying what I didn't quote and what you quoted)

I've read this five times over and am not following this.

Can you rephrase?

[Fro99er]

SBF is backing off from that point and claiming no she didn't say that in 720

where is this?

All I see is a reply to me in 723

[Fro99er]

Bork we're gonna disagree here. I heavily use meta. Heavily. That's my playstyle. I think there are certain things that can't be faked by most people (there are a few I cannot get a meta read on, so I don't try to).

I mean I know people do it and I know they will continue to. I think playstyle differences in a vacuum say almost nothing.

I agree people shouldn't say "this looks different from X game"

for me meta is a starting point, and is much more about feel than specifics (although there can be specifics). I can't explain it. I'll just drop it because I think this is beside the point.

[Fro99er]

Well yeah, my point in 718 is only in play if SS is town; I am saying SBF is saying I am scum if SS is town, and SBF is backing off from that point and claiming no she didn't say that in 720

Oh wait, you're saying in post 720 she is saying "no she didn't say that" (about the prior stuff)