DoY I: British Monarchy Mafia (Mini 1896) - Game Over :O

[Prism]

Scum are Chara, nancy, and ???, my guess would be Penguin.

VOTE: Chara

Opening vote on Drealm+followup is bad.

VOTE: drealmerz
voted no one instead of picking a player. obvscum. ;>
~Chara

The ;> here is playful but completely negates any pressure they might have been trying to place. I question the intent behind even posting here.

ah, dreal. never change.
VOTE: The Wood Cutters
~Chara

The followup here lacks any sort of clarification as to the intent behind the original vote. The "never change" accompanied by a vote swap implies a town read via meta, but it lacks any kind of teeth. When the original post immediately negates its own pressure, I doubt the usefulness of the 3 posts as adequate to get a grasp on "same old town drealm"

why would i immediately give a reason when seeing what you come up with is more fun?
sharp scummers would figure it had something to do with drealmerz. ;>
~Chara

Skeptical of this claim. As mentioned previously, the interaction here with drealmerz is odd and appears to be settling for very little. Your statement implying that you were trying to fish for reactions or speculation seems to contradict the statement that you left enough for us to extrapolate that it was something about him. Are you testing people's alignments or how perceptive they are? At worst, I think your vote change was scummy in the sense that you

already full well know drealm is town

, at best you're testing something that correlates very little with alignment with no clear reason for doing so.

[Prism]

Scumreads on nancy and Penguin are weaker just from glancing at the opening posts. Rereading nancy it wasn't as bad as I thought but post #100 in particular sticks out to me as a question unlikely to lead anywhere but coming more for the sake of it.

This is irrelevant to the game but as a side note I've been out of action for what feels like too long due to real life circumstances. It's good to be back and devoting my full energy again after having it first diverted then outright stolen by outside circumstances. There are a lot of familiar names here and I'm excited to play with all of you once again. I will hold nothing back.

[Prism]

I'll be honest in saying that I have no idea how to read drealm. I've gotten townreads on him before only to walk them back later but I have yet to see his scumgame. There are no glaringly obvious differences thus far between this game and camn's revenge where we were both town.

[Prism]

@108: Why not question chara about this more? I think you're reading into it too much.

Does my vote and analysis themselves not invite more conversation on the topic? The implication is that I want a followup from Chara, and if it's not adequate then more votes. If I wasn't aiming for more discussion, I wouldn't have explained a thing.

[Prism]

Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but it looks to me like it's written more like a case than an attempt to sort.

Based off of your reaction to that being more about the fact it's a case itself and less about what it contains, it's almost certainly a playstyle thing.

There are times when it's best to watch from the sides and scavenge when the battle's over, but keep in mind-someone had to kill before you could take the spoils. Simply talking gets you nowhere until it gains teeth.

Question, I've not played a closed setup before.
Is there any certain setup restrictions or pasterns or whatnot they follow?
Because from what Prism has said there is three scum?
And neutrals are possible?

Three mafia is the standard number for minis but this is

not

guaranteed. It is possible for there to be more or less than three mafia, or for third parties or even multiple mafia factions to exist. It is just generally more often the case than not that there are exactly three.

[Prism]

Scumreads on nancy and Penguin are weaker just from glancing at the opening posts. Rereading nancy it wasn't as bad as I thought but post #100 in particular sticks out to me as a question unlikely to lead anywhere but coming more for the sake of it.

Yeah that's not gonna cut it. How is that question not going to lead anywhere? I don't ask questions just for the sake of it. Even if I'm scum, every single one of my questions is going to be for a reason. So your analysis is lazy and you can try again.

This is a lot of shouting "Fake News" when there's a much easier way to prove me wrong: Simply give the intent behind the question.

[Prism]

For me, OMGUS usually happens in the RVS stage and you can tell when it's being playful.

In this situation, I read nancy's post saying mastina's reads sucks, verbatim:

Nope your reads suck.

and then goes on to say there should be a question mark in a post made by mastina as reason to vote our slot.

I want to say 126 and 127 are mastina, but I feel like there should be question marks in a single post there if it were her..

Let's just say it is anyway.

VOTE: WoodCutters

Where's the doubt, choppie chop chop?

If part of our reads means nancy is scum and then nancy says our reads are bad and then votes us right after stating that. I see OMGUS.

Why is OMGUS scummy? I've found it a decently reliable towntell dependent on a few factors (name kind of player)

The question mark nonsense is a pretty bad mischaracterization and I don't like that you're selling it. She made it explicit that she doubted the certainty of the reads, which has to do with interpreting syntactical choices. The significance of the punctuation is in what it signals. I'd get it if there were confusion over

where

it would make a difference, but it is crystal clear on my end and I suspect to anyone who read the posts in question.

Mainly waiting on Nacho to read Wood Cutters, which will likely peeve him slightly and I am a-OK with that. Surf's up.

[Prism]

I'll be honest in saying that I have no idea how to read drealm. I've gotten townreads on him before only to walk them back later but I have yet to see his scumgame. There are no glaringly obvious differences thus far between this game and camn's revenge where we were both town.

As for dreal, Nacho says dreal looks on par to what we were playing with in Camn's Revenge and I trust him enough to have a better read on that slot than I do because of my tendency to scum read him for riding my ass in Camn's Revenge (love you tho).

I don't know if this is coincidental or if Nacho took inspiration but I'm amused.

P-Edit:

@Empking:

Feel free to explain why-I see nothing wrong with the latter paragraph and the former is just them not getting that the list is a town-scum list, evidenced by not knowing the question to who would be next on the scum list.

[Prism]

On my phone so the rest will have to wait.

@Nancy:

You're again dodging the easy way to disprove me and instead just being combative for the sake of it/taking offense at something you shouldn't be. Just outline what you expected to get from the question, I hate to be accusatory as I feel you're just going to take more offense to it, but you're the one responding to "Explain your intent" with hot air instead of intent.

[Prism]

I don't actually even want to push that specific issue anymore because I've already made up my mind that it was a thoughtless question, and regardless of whether or not you're town any justification is going to be after the fact.

It's odd to get accused of lacking real intent, and then rather than simply explain the intent be unnecessarily hostile and uncooperative even when presented with a straightforward, mutually beneficial alternative.

[Prism]

I had no memorable thoughts over the last few pages so I'll come back to them later. For now I'll respond to TWC, which will annoy Nacho some more because that's not what he wants.

Bulk of #254 & #256: I think you're missing a big perspective point here. I

do not mind

making strong reaches early game, especially if they feel intuitive. I also made no attempt to pass them off as something more or, more importantly, something that

people would agree with.

My push on Chara I especially expected to be the only one to feel this way. The teeth are not in the objectivity but in the fact that they are my beliefs.

Why were you waiting for my entrance in order to read us? The Gin post you noted seemed like a good opportunity to pressure, get a read.

I

did

pressure Gin on that post, even if I'm not trying as hard to read him. I think my motivation behind waiting on you to jump in is obvious-I'm a lot more familiar with your play than either of theirs. I barely paid either note in camn's.

Spoiler: All of this activity-related garbage

Mainly waiting on Nacho to read Wood Cutters, which will likely peeve him slightly and I am a-OK with that. Surf's up.

So, right now, it seems like your initial approach was that you're Back With a Vengeance Part II and then from there you fizzled out completely shortly after. If your approach was the one that you described to Infinity (making something happen, killing people, etc), then why haven't you tried to read Nancy on anything other than the question that you're convinced had no intent behind it? Why didn't you engage with Gin when he made a post that was iffy? Why didn't you try to talk to the Almost head when they appeared? Do you have any interesting takes on anything or was your plan for today was to pick one fight and then feed on scraps for the rest of the game?

Prism - Have already gone in depth into this read enough, but the short version is that his Almost Chara case is nine parts fizzle and one part bite, his read on nancy seems lazy if I'm feeling charitable, and still underwhelmed and was expecting some more pizzazz after he made his opening posts about how hyped he was to be in the saddle again.

I do think that what he's posted so far is legitimately scummy; making a strong entrance and leaving a good impression early and then completely fading away is an excellent strategy for scum in general and it goes against the "I'M BACK" vibe that he gave early.

I went to dinner and then slept for 14/15 hours. The time I haven't been here is <24 hours. All that you described happened after my last posts, other than my phone posts that were 0 effort and borderline automatic reactions.

also dislikes sticking his neck out

I think this is a puzzling mischaracterization, in the sense that it's one that you had no reason to make. Specifically, while I was this way during Sakura Wars, you've repeatedly seen that I think of my play in terms of utility first, artistry second, and have explicitly acknowledged that I

do not mind dying at all

, even preferring it that way, as scum.

I expected you to be expectant of me, but elements of these interactions are a puzzle to me in the sense that a range of them are overblown, but only a certain fraction of them seem purposely so rather than all, and discerning which ones those are is difficult.

[Prism]

I don't understand why you automatically think that Drealmer is town from this interaction in a world where Not Chara is scum; would regard a bad attempt as scumhunting as just that and wouldn't use it to determine any alignment but the scumhunter's.

I actually considered following that up with a clarification that Chara scum didn't necessarily equal Drealm town but didn't really feel it was worth a post. I found Chara scum+Drealm town more likely at the time but didn't think that both scum were excluded. I say "at the time" because I have yet to process A50's posts from the past day.

[Prism]

From an objective standpoint I shouldn't have made those-as I'm confident you'll scumread them-but you'll have to excuse a bit of selfindulgence.

[Prism]

Prism what do you think of my townread on you?

I think it's premature as you've never played with me before but I get why you have it. I like the fact you're prodding more outside of the observation realm.

I also like the miller claim. Looking at the flavor the claim doesn't exactly fit, but given the style of play you've demonstrated I find it a very unlikely fakeclaim.

You butted into my interaction with Postie. It's rude. You mischaracterized my content, and now you're refusing to elaborate on that by being self-righteous. I have no desire to engage with that attitude.

You do realize you're playing mafia, not socializing at a dinner party? You

will

have to work with me at some point, even if not right now. Engaging me with hostility when I ask you a question is a great, quick path to a lose/lose scenario. All you had to do was elaborate as to what you were hoping for, and instead you've just continued being combative out of some perceived offense that is just me trying to get something out of you. In short this interaction has just hurt us both, and it

didn't have to be that way.

On TWC:

I really,

really

dislike most of Nacho's posting on Page 11 despite having trouble putting my finger on what it is. Some of what I believe are mastina's are also rubbing me the wrong way. There are a lot of vague factors behind this, ranging from the given reads to how the hydra interacts with itself, and I'll try to follow up soon when I can ground why it is I feel this way. I was inclined to see Nacho's push on me as null, being a mix of high expectation and desire for more from me, but some of it really feels as though it's targeted

for

me rather than

at

me, and not just in a "Get them active" way.

Almost50's play is pretty hard to follow/discern the intent behind. #294 is pretty silly, but I'd lean town on the parts about Mastina. It seems as though they're just making this more complicated than it should be.

Other reads I don't have time to currently justify but should throw out: Wraith townlean & T&B scumlean. Priorities in order are grounding my vague read on TWC, reading drealm/Think, and then lastly explaining the two reads above w/ T&B one being the important one to follow up on.

[Prism]

UNVOTE: for now.

Like, my feelings on TWC are vague and I've got to run at a pretty inopportune time, but how I'm feeling reading that page 11+random select posts, I would,

at this immediate moment

, be

really

surprised if that slot flips town, even if I don't know why.

[Prism]

I did-it was nonsensical. I explicitly said I don't have time right now to make it that way. Rushing me on it is bullshit.

[Prism]

Make it not that way, rather.

[Prism]

I laid out a significant number of things in that post regardless, including a small bit on you, immediately after your other head grilled me for opting for your very given strategy.

[Prism]

I don't get how you can read "I would be very surprised to see TWC flip town even if I can't ground the feeling now", together with preliminary realms where the feelings reside, and think of this as a valueless post.

I also weighed in on Infinity and Almost50 in the same post, explaining why I feel the way I do about them.

Nothing in that was "valueless", period. It explained what I could now with the promise of more next time I'm at a computer with time to really think.

And before you say, "You're posting plenty now, why don't you have time?" there's a huge difference between analyzing posts and establishing deeper thoughts and responding to base level nonsense.

[Prism]

Wraith's reaction to the miller claim was really good, even if I disagree with it:

4 pages while I was asleep 0_0

I'm a miller

Miller? In a Mini?

...Really?

#285's stream of consciousness contains a lot that I agree with or at least understand. Notably, I think their treatment of Infinity reads town, reinforced in #340. The drealm stuff is pretty null in my book, in the sense that I think scumWraith is likely to defend him anyway, but the rest is solid.

[Prism]

Also I'm not scumreading dreal anymore. I started doubting the scumread pretty quickly but wanted to keep pushing him to see if anything useful would come out of it. He's producing some content now that looks like I could potentially get a read from when I have a clearer head so I'm not really interested in tunneling there anymore.

This is very likely town

I disagree. At least three people have come to the defense of drealm as being lynchbait. The pretext here is awful to boot. They were pushing drealm for content, and now they've gotten it so they'll back off the scumread.

Two things:

1. Drealm not giving content was

never

an issue.
2. They didn't even

read

the content that is making them back off.

They said they started doubting the scumread early, but just go through their ISO and Ctrl+F "Dreal". You find posts like these, which while they

do

come early, they

aren't

something that goes away because dreal types a lot. Their read strengthened on Dreal as they went, but now it's mysteriously always in doubt.

I'm not gonna lie dreal I'm legit scumreading you already here

-- Postie

but is that because you're townreading my tone and then compensating for fear of being wrong based on In Memory?

why is 29 terrible? I wanted to know if you were town-reading me by tone (as you did in In Memory) and then switching your read based on your inaccuracy at doing that in that game- seems pretty reasonable to me?

This kind of shitty discredit does not come from town.
Vote dreal.

-- Postie

I wasn't trying to dismiss it, that was a guess, I asked you a question with it, you could have simply said "no that'd be stupid" and then given your thoughts, instead we're here, and you're still not explaining the read (believe me, I understand not being able to describe why I have a SR, it's nothing damning), that's all I'm trying to do, is understand

it was perhaps my mistake suggesting an explanation for you instead of just letting you explain, but, that was where my mind went, and so I shared it

This post feels appeasey as fuck.

-- Postie

The comparison to the linked game so far seems a horrible one, both in game type and differences in posting. I personally don't plan on signing. I'll post more betterer when I'm home.

Yeah, like I said, it wasn't anything solid; just something that made me want to vote him in early-game. It's his reactions to my scumread of him that are making me want to lynch him now.

-- Postie

believe me, I understand

that's all I'm trying to do, is understand

The phrasing just... ugh. Doesn't feel like a natural response in this situation sorry.

-- Postie

Most damningly, Postie

scumread drealm's reactions

and called them solid:

so when exactly did the read become solid?

Post 29 and everything after it.

-- Postie

These are all relatively early in the game but they were the last things said by Postie about Dreal, and they seem to contradict a lot of what they're saying now. Their read seemed to get more solid as Drealm talked more, not in doubt, but

even if this was played up, the given context of the swap makes no sense.

Going from pushing for a reaction, to scumreading those reactions, to seemingly townreading/nullifying a scumread the fact that dreal typed a wall or two that

Postie didn't even read

makes little sense.

[Prism]

I felt weird about TWC until whicheverheaditwas talked to me about Wraith over the last few pages. Having trouble explaining it but the way they interacted with me felt super town.

-- Postie

I got the exact opposite reaction to this, the original reason I had a scumlean on you (before I went back in reaction to Infinity just now) was two pronged:

1) Your interaction with TWC read subjectively more as two scum to me
2) I didn't like SuperJack's confusion about the makeup of the game/size of the scumteam in that the underlying message is he's not scum, even if it's a valid question as town.

I think these are extremely weak/more just my own perspective than the above post though, which is what I really want more on, because that post on Drealm makes 0 sense to me.

VOTE: Tea and Biscuits

[Prism]

UNVOTE: for now.

Like, my feelings on TWC are vague and I've got to run at a pretty inopportune time, but how I'm feeling reading that page 11+random select posts, I would,

at this immediate moment

, be

really

surprised if that slot flips town, even if I don't know why.

Sorry I thought you missed my question

Is nacho's scumgame this good? When I played with him as scum before he was more nitpicky and less...genuine-looking

Prism, another reason why I townread twc is that so many of nacho's thoughts matched up with mine (although more in depth), and I don't know why he would pick out me to shadow. I think he would come up with more different reads as scum.

345 bothers me. The part about nancy feels fake.

Note: knowing that someone has a good scumgame will definitely affect my read on them.

I've only seen Scumcho once and it was a bit of a snoozefest that I was barely paying attention during.

I don't want to go back and see exactly what the similarities/differences in your thoughts are because that's a lot of work for little payout, but I am 99% sure that any shadowing would be coincidental rather than purposeful. Scumcho is going to make sense, whether he's town is a completely different matter.

P-Edit: The problem is that

even if she overplayed the scumread, Drealm did nothing to change it to begin with

-because Postie didn't read the walls. Postie pushed him for content, but he was giving plenty already, and what he was giving they

didn't like

. It makes no sense to read the first 15 posts, scumread them and the player, then get 5 posts that

you don't read

, and then say that overall you're null on the player.

[Prism]

Re: The nancy stuff I mean it's echoing what I said before. If she wants to win she's got to work with people instead of picking lose/lose scenarios and getting offended over people doubting her.

[Prism]

Like, with regards to Postie, there seem to be two possibilities that include them as town here:

1) They lied in all of those posts and scumread none of it to begin with
2) They townread him for giving more content itself, when he

was doing that before and they didn't like it

Neither of these make sense to me, so perhaps they can submit a third that does.

[Prism]

I scumread him, and then began doubting my scumread (which then turned into a nullread somewhere along the line) but put those feelings to one side and just kept tunneling as a means of trying to sort him. Then our interactions just kinda naturally came to an end, and he was commenting on lots of other things in a way that seemed seriousish and less trolly and therefore readable, so I made a note to read through that stuff later and moved on.
Does that make any more sense?

This makes

no sense

given your statements. Your statements weren't just pressuring, here they are:

This kind of shitty discredit does not come from town.
Vote dreal.

-- Postie

This post feels appeasey as fuck.

-- Postie

Yeah, like I said, it wasn't anything solid; just something that made me want to vote him in early-game. It's his reactions to my scumread of him that are making me want to lynch him now.

-- Postie

believe me, I understand

that's all I'm trying to do, is understand

The phrasing just... ugh. Doesn't feel like a natural response in this situation sorry.

-- Postie

These first few are more than just pressuring but

actual scumreads

. Phrases like "These statements don't come from town" is not just applying pressure. Your last two statements on Drealm especially were awful and

directly contradict your explanation

:

so when exactly did the read become solid?

Post 29 and everything after it.

-- Postie

Crazy tunnels are how I read people.

If you're town I'll probably see it eventually. Right now I don't.

-- Postie

I bolded exactly what is wrong with that last one. By your timeline, this is the point at which you've come out of scumreading him. Nothing in this statement reflects that, instead portraying the opposite, that crazy tunnels are your thing, but

what you've seen you hate

and don't see coming from town.

Your given timeline has a scumread, to doubting the scumread, to finally a null read.

Exactly 0 of this is reflected in your posts

, instead portraying just the opposite of a solidifying scumread. Statements like "These statements don't come from town. Vote Dreal" is more than trying to get content out of dreal, and again

dreal was already giving plenty of content from the get go

, and what he did you demonstrably didn't like.

Not only are you mischaracterizing your own interactions with dreal, you're claiming you straight up lied about how you felt about him. I'm calling bullshit.

[Prism]

I'm going to waste time on these even though I shouldn't.

My earlier post is much more important, this one is practically worthless in comparison.

.

1) Your interaction with TWC read subjectively more as two scum to me

Could you explain this because it seems like an absurd conclusion to me. I think the way we kept speaking past each other and getting frustrated but still somehow managing to cooperate and find points to agree on makes it very very likely to be TvT.

2) I didn't like SuperJack's confusion about the makeup of the game/size of the scumteam in that the underlying message is he's not scum, even if it's a valid question as town.

SuperJack is new to this site. This is NAI unless you think he's lying about being a newbie.

-- Postie

For the second I literally said in post you quoted "It's a valid question as town."

These are both things that were just my subjective gut feeling, that they were

not what I wanted to focus on

because of it, and I explicitly said as much:

I think these are extremely weak/more just my own perspective than the above post though, which is what I really want more on, because that post on Drealm makes 0 sense to me.

The fact that you included them anyway and dedicated just as much space to them, knowing ahead of time that I had already admitted they weren't objectively credible and were only my intuitive feeling, really rubs me the wrong way here.

This goes double when your explanation about your feelings about Drealm are more than inconsistent but a

straightforward lie.

[Prism]

tl;dr: Postie has repeatedly lied about their timeline/feelings on Drealm. I'm not talking about town forgetfulness or run of the mill mental inconsistency. What she's describing is impossible to mistake as town, and she's straightforwardly lying.

Her statements she's making on Drealm directly contradict her treatment and earlier statements on Drealm, and her given timeline is entirely false. I realize the quote walls are a lot to get through but they're worth it. They match up 0 with her description.

[Prism]

I'll let postie respond to that, but I think the narrative of "I doubted my scumread much earlier but pushed it anyway for reactions" makes sense with what I know of postie and fits with her posts imo

We'll talk more once postie explains herself

Slight lean scum but too early to tell

Stop with what you're assuming she said and take some time to

actually

read over what she said.

Explaining the new scumread on me would be helpful because as far as I know you've only mentioned the interactions with nancy. I don't think telling her to stop picking lose/lose is alignment indicative either way since if she's town I need her as much as she needs me, regardless of what I am.

[Prism]

TWC still desperately needs my attention but right now they're a raw fish sitting in the freezer and Postie's already thrown themselves onto the grill.

[Prism]

How you get TvT out of this confuses me, in that the only explanations I can see for getting that conclusion are that you're either the allseeing Oracle of Delphi or aren't reading what I'm saying for what it actually contains at all.

[Prism]

I agree that other spots are getting passes, and I really want more from both Pine and PP and want to engage with TWC, but there's a big reason I'm doing what I'm doing, and handwaving it off as TvT tells me that you either aren't understanding what I'm saying (Which might be my fault for not being concise/efficient) or aren't reading it to begin with.

[Prism]

Re: Almost50: If you don't read what I say, you won't know what to look for. Other players' minds are the biggest asset you have ingame.

VOTE: Prism

Enough of the bullshit. You say it's vague and you'll explain and you've gone on to explain everyone elses shit.

You have bloody time so fucking spill it.

I've got my fish right now and it's not you.

The pretext this time isn't a lack of time but one of focus. Don't act like you don't know the difference.

[Prism]

You can complain that I got distracted from reading you but the self insistence is bullshit. I'm giving

more

than enough for you to read me off of, and you just ignored all of it to whine about how I haven't gotten to you. Address the substance and cut the bullshit vote, it's obvious what I put my time into and why.

[Prism]

Run that theory by Nacho and see how far it gets, in the meantime I'm shaking and quaking at my boots at the sight of two people I didn't even read in camn's because I thought it was a waste of time.

[Prism]

Drealm did a better job of addressing it.

I said I scumread you but also explicitly said

I can't ground it right now, and that it takes a lot of time to do that.

Complain about how I divide the time all you want, but it's clear that I've poured a lot of time in recently, and gone very big with all of it that I've used.

You've gotten more than enough to read me off of in the past 2 pages. Complaining that I've set my focus elsewhere,

especially when I've made such good use of it

, is ridiculous.

"Deflection" is a fucking joke, I'm flat out telling you: You're not worth the time right now.

[Prism]

I want to know Prism's thoughts now. Not later on. I want the raw emotion or thoughts that come out on what Prism thinks of us. What makes the scum read form and what doesn't.

I want that knee jerk reaction. It's really hard to fake spitfire arguments and keep yourself unexposed as scum.

Bullshit. Blatant, blatant bullshit.

You got exactly what you describe looking for multiple times, here's the quotes:

On TWC:

I really,

really

dislike most of Nacho's posting on Page 11 despite having trouble putting my finger on what it is. Some of what I believe are mastina's are also rubbing me the wrong way. There are a lot of vague factors behind this, ranging from the given reads to how the hydra interacts with itself, and I'll try to follow up soon when I can ground why it is I feel this way. I was inclined to see Nacho's push on me as null, being a mix of high expectation and desire for more from me, but some of it really feels as though it's targeted

for

me rather than

at

me, and not just in a "Get them active" way.

UNVOTE: for now.

Like, my feelings on TWC are vague and I've got to run at a pretty inopportune time, but how I'm feeling reading that page 11+random select posts, I would,

at this immediate moment

, be

really

surprised if that slot flips town, even if I don't know why.

I don't get how you can read "I would be very surprised to see TWC flip town even if I can't ground the feeling now", together with preliminary realms where the feelings reside, and think of this as a valueless post.

I gave you that "raw" feeling you were looking for, those "kneejerk reactions", practically word for word, and you called me on it not being satisfactory and you demanded that it be

grounded

and that I give

reason

.

I tell you that that takes time, that I've diverted my energy elsewhere for now, and suddenly that's not what you want, you don't want wellgrounded logical reason, you just want that

kneejerk reaction

, that

raw emotion

that I already gave only for you to whine about it two/three pages back.

Bullshit. Blatant, blatant bullshit.

[Prism]

I give the kneejerk reaction, you want logic because kneejerk reaction isn't good enough. I say sure but that takes time and I've got my sights elsewhere right now, and you don't want the well thought out logic after the fact, and suddenly

flip

you just want the kneejerk reaction. Complete bullshit, give the phone to someone else and take a break.

This isn't even to mention that

I

am the one who first brought up that it needed to be grounded further and not be so vague.

Utter garbage.

[Prism]

Now that you're talking to me and about me, go to page 11 and the other random posts.

You don't even have to say anything, just give me the quotes on which ones hit you.

Now

this

is a fucking deflection.

I'll agree to a trade:

1) Address what I just said
2) Address my case on T&B

And in return:

3) I will go through and sign your fucking death warrant

Raw quotes, just like you asked, coming up despite being on my phone.

[Prism]

Spoiler: Wall of Quotes

The ;> here is playful but completely negates any pressure they might have been trying to place. I question the intent behind even posting here.

Some people early game make playful posts; criticizing the post because of it had a smiley instead of making a post that was clearly intended not to give pressure instead seems like a pretty strong reach to me.

The followup here lacks any sort of clarification as to the intent behind the original vote. The "never change" accompanied by a vote swap implies a town read via meta, but it lacks any kind of teeth. When the original post immediately negates its own pressure, I doubt the usefulness of the 3 posts as adequate to get a grasp on "same old town drealm"

The initial vote on drealmer made it fairly obvious that there wasn't any teeth in the push in the first place; your assertion that the "never change" and a vote swap has to imply town read is not a great one.

So, blah blah, first of all, you haven't yet engaged with my slot in a meaningful way. Your approach here is pure rhetoric. Second of all, you're pushing a narrative that holds only a semblance of truth. Your reads (including the one on me, yes, well selected) sucking have little to do with my vote. Your lack of hesitance in handing out town labels based on a scarcity of info is mainly what drew me away from drealmer. The only way you can argue to the contrary is by flat out calling me a liar from the get-go, which is.. uh.. well, not a position you have any ground to support yourself on, so that's not gonna end well for you. You scumbuds with dreal, bro?

I like this response for the most part.
I disagree in general that handing out town reads early is something that's scummy in any sense of the word; giving out reads early game is in general for the sake of transparency, at least when I do them. I tend to focus on getting things out there, pulling on threads as much as I can early even though I'm generally pretty aware that 90% of those reads won't matter dick five pages later, but generally putting that out there can generate responses that lead to the good stuff (and there is just as much merit in making people comfortable as there is as making them uncomfortable).

Okay, Almost is getting scummier by the second. I have some post flip analysis depending.

This is an absurdly early time to get plugging away on something like this, but I'd appreciate it if you posted it anyways - would help my read on you quite a bit if it looked genuine enough.

it's a a bad idea to lynch a VT claim on D1, and especially so when I claimed w/o any pressure. If I'm "anything but" a Tracker, a Watcher, a Neapolitan, a Role Cop, as well as many other roles can catch me in a lie.

There are plenty of ways to catch you out, but that doesn't make you a bad lynch if you look scummy (it's typically not worth it to out those roles you note in order to confirm you town and only a select few of the roles you can actually confirm you as town). Why did you claim VT, anyways (and if this is a question you'd rather answer later just don't forget about it). I find your original post on us to be pretty obviously disingenuous (maybe mastina knows a ton about you but I certainly don't and from the way you patted Gin on the head you clearly don't respect his ability to read us either), but don't know what you're looking for with that gambit as far as the "reading us" front goes.

I feel like I've seen this episode a hundred times

This is something that could be happening because he feels apathetic in general, but I don't like how he didn't make even a cursory effort to engage Postie on her read when he's seen people making a similar mistake many times before. As scum, it's a very going through the motions type of post - he weighs in on the situation but there's nothing more than that.

I also thought that I included nancy in that readslist, but apparently didn't - she's just below Infinity on the townlist; I've liked her pushback against our slot in particular, but her engagement with pretty much all of the slots that posted things she didn't like seem fairly genuine to me. I'd like to talk to mastina about her a little bit since apparently there's history here, but I think Gin and I are at least on the same page with that read.

[Prism]

*squeals like a little school girl*

That wall of quotes is all I'm getting until I have my 1) and 2), and that I like what I get from it.

[Prism]

I'm giving/you're getting, whichever you prefer.

[Prism]

No, the bullshit is that you exclaimed earlier to want the exact opposite, telling me to

not even post it

if it wasn't well thought out, that you need the hard logic. Immediately after I gave a shitton on T&B you again demanded wellgrounded logic, but right after that you flopped to demanding kneejerk/raw

right the fuck now

shortly afterwards and accused me of purposely dodging it, even when it's apparent I was using my time on something

incredibly

productive in its own right, and had

already given exactly what you were asking for

.

You went all over the place with your goalposts, from the middle, to one side, to the other endzone, then back to the other, then

finally

back to the middle.

[Prism]

Welcome, RC and Shephard.

Apologies for my absence but I've been traveling all day and will be tomorrow as well. I'll try to remember to save the game as a PDF to read on the plane.

[Prism]

Phone posting to proddodge, I'll be home later tonight.

[Prism]

I'm up to page 30 and so far reading 20-30 is one of the bigger regrets in my life.

[Prism]

I really dislike A50's #734

I get that a lot of the overly assertive diction choice is purposeful but some pushes too far for my taste.

SEE THIS THING I DO?! IT'S A GAMBIT! YA!

gambitfail

just no

no

nonono

NO

6- This is unnecessary shading after the fact. The gambit has been explained, dismatled, evaluated and judged already by the intended party (as well as Infinity), so if you're going to reject the explanation you had better offer one of your own.

P.S. I'm also going to disregard my dilike of your interference between TWC & Prism to ask what “they” thought about “his” talk about “her” (Her being Postie). It doesn't bode well with me to interfere in the first place and to ask someone about someone else's cae on a third someone doesn't feel genuine either, but I'm disregrading for fear of being conf!biasing already.

This #6 in particular hits upon what I mean with regards to the tone, reading more accusatory than investigative. Probably a playstyle difference but still a negative factor.

7- HOWEVER, 408 is starting to border on ridiculousness. As you are starting to answer on behalf of Prism too. It's as if you KNOW his alignment AND his INTENTIONS too.

I don't agree with a lot of drealm's posting and despite knowing he's lynchbait ahead of time, I still lean scum on him. I think buddying me is something he could try to do. That said, chiming in to state that TWC was being way too insistent/egocentric, and needed to cool it when me/TWC had already been going on for like a page or two at that point was pretty necessary.If you actually read 408, it's pretty valid and actually shows drealm trying to evaluate my alignment:

if prism is scum, what do you think their mindset is with all of this??? "let me toss out a SR to a trio of strong players and then go pick on some weak-ass towny's case I think I can push a lynch on" ?????

I do get that Prism himself said that will get back to TWC's concern, but your phrasing gives unnatural assertion, so I'll only ask you this once: Are you guys Masons?!

Yes.

Imagine typing this sentence as town. I don't see why you ever would, except to artificially bolster your own rhetoric.

pine, and other players, please

GET IN THE GAME

cause I think the scumteam is:

Tea&Biscuits
TheWoodCutters
AlmostChara

so unless that is right and they want to surrender (just put a @mod bolded "/bow & surrender to almighty townies") , we need more ppl giving views and content

8- I am still amazed at your attentive perception. You must be REALLY good to have found all 3 of them.. erm.. us... on D1

Word of advise: Hydrae are bound to give you mixed vibes. There are different people with different playstyles talking from the same slot. The only hydra you didn't SR was Thinkmomo and that's because momo has been carrying it mostly so far.

~A50

Other people, myself included, have done similar. The dismissive attitude here, along with the condescending advice, again really rubs me the wrong way.

[Prism]

Elaborating more on the drealm read real fast before I keep pushing through-Drealm takes a lot of effort to read, his content has seemed pretty null to me so far but buddying me is something I can 100% see being his move as scum here. Taking advantage of my hesitancy to save him twice, once in Evoker and once in camn's, is definitely something I can see happening.

[Prism]

alright! i'm now actually caught up, 100%.

drealmerz, Tea and Biscuits, ThinkMomo, and Wraith are my best scumreads. i know Almost is TRing T&B, but at least we agree on dreal. i'm least confident in the Wraith scumread.
Bork was one, until Shepard replaced in. Shepard is town and i will not be lynching them today.

i'll still argue that Tea and Biscuits didn't scumslip. but i'm not going to let this weak scumslip issue stop them from being pushed, because i think they're scum.
it's unimaginably simple to accidentally mix up town and scum when typing a post. i do it a lot. it doesn't mean anything. knowing that, Postie's reaction to the post looked genuine. i don't think that means anything for their alignment, because anyone would react that way in my opinion.

dreal, i won't pretend to have a lot of meta on you, but what i have makes me believe you're scum here.

i've left plenty of notes in the hydra PT, but dumping them all here doesn't seem especially useful.
~Chara

I agree for the most part on Shepherd and T&B here. From what I can see (up to page 31) the Shepherd/T&B back and forth was basically useless. I don't find the scumslip convincing, and I think Shepherd has shot us in the foot here by pushing the weak point. The way Shepherd has approached a lot of this has been pretty aggravating, which is something I've historically tended to townread, but I don't trust it at all here. That attitude and the fact it happens to be T&B is really all I see going for them.

[Prism]

Prism, you're pushing an uncomfortable amount of people as potential scum. Tell me about your townreads please.

P-edit - I semi-spectated that game and remembered something about fake guilties so I just went with what nancy said. I didn't go back and re-read the game, no. Trying to parse the rest of what you're saying now. Also anyone scumreading AC at this point is terrible or scum.

-- Postie

I don't really get why you wouldn't wait for the full update as my last substantial posts were on page 20, but I'll skip ahead: I have no strong townreads, with only my Wraith and Infinity townleans staying.

[Prism]

Actually I take that back I really like Empking this game, I still have to ground that but it's apparent to me from my glance over that he's playing much differently than he did in Sakura Wars, where he played really poorly as scum. Whenever I read his posts I actually agree, whereas in Sakura Wars they left me scratching my head wondering why he'd go for that angle (as we were scum together)

Posts like #385 and #702 read very genuinely to me.

[Prism]

Picking up the prod for when I get home.

[Prism]

Pages 30-40 were even worse than 20-30.

Link to Sakura Wars?

Sakura Wars

The reply to Nacho I'm about to give isn't worth paying attention to unless your name is Nacho, but note that the one in a future post will be:

You are probably misunderstanding the statement I made about your play there - scum players who dislike sticking their neck out are very much utility first, artistry second players (they are less likely to take risks that don't have a bright shiny reward sitting at the end of the tunnel whereas artistry first, utility second players are more willing to take high risk high reward moves), and

being unwilling to stick your neck out has absolutely nothing to do with a willingness to die.

What did you think I was saying here?

Bolded the problem here. While I may have been reticent to stick my neck out in Sakura Wars, the other game you've seen with me as scum, and the one I was by far more energetic in, had the exact opposite case. I was extremely vocal, brash, and stuck my neck out on numerous occasions to the extent people were largely convinced I couldn't be scum until I was ruined by real life circumstances. You have a case where I was

this way

with the endgoal of myself carrying the team, and a stated preference to be this way with the endgoal of someone else doing so. I believe the mistake here but the followup/extrapolation on it strikes me as odd. If I was

forced

to hazard a guess, I suspect that

you know

there's a lot that you don't know about my scumplay-how that plays into your alignment here, I'm not quite sure, which is why it's a puzzle.

I expected you to be expectant of me, but elements of these interactions are a puzzle to me in the sense that a range of them are overblown, but only a certain fraction of them seem purposely so rather than all, and discerning which ones those are is difficult.

Is there a characterization of you that was inaccurate that you didn't cover in this spurt of posting?
The "I didn't expect people to believe my case" isn't something that's immediately obvious; you posted a sizeable wall, you went in depth, you sold the read.
The using activity as a point against you was a bad interpretation yes, but I don't think that it's a particularly unreasonable one unless you expect me to be aware of your schedule.
The "sticking your neck out" point is a point where you're either completely confused as to what I'm saying or I'm completely confused as to what you're rebuttal is saying.

I think your treatment of me in general with those posts, both with activity and with purported scum tendencies, were nuanced and odd. The not realizing my intent with the post about AC wasn't much of an issue to me, though I remember the force or energy with which you took to it to again be strange.

As a side note, relating to the scheduling comment, I don't think is really very relevant but I think you know pretty well by now how mightily I struggle just to have time to

play

, let alone well. This isn't the podoboq game, and I've said I have more time and I do, but the idea that you wouldn't be aware of this is again puzzling given that you had to deal with it in the course of a hydra with me.

This continued "nacho will scumread this" posting kind of bothers me

The "Nacho will scumread this" posting is probably the posting I've liked the most, oddly enough.

Intended.

[Prism]

Not a big fan of the Chara vote.

Almost has been rough at times but I've really, really liked the conclusions Chara has come to for the most part. This may come back to bite me for not delving deeper but everything I've seen on the surface tells me Chara looks great and that I have little reason to do so.

[Prism]

I just realized I haven't voted nor responded to T&B's last exchange with me.

VOTE: T&B

I bolded exactly what is wrong with that last one. By your timeline, this is the point at which you've come out of scumreading him. Nothing in this statement reflects that, instead portraying the opposite, that crazy tunnels are your thing, but

what you've seen you hate

and don't see coming from town.

I didn't intend for the statement to reflect what I thought. I intended for it to apply pressure and get dreal to convince me I was wrong.

Your given timeline has a scumread, to doubting the scumread, to finally a null read.

Exactly 0 of this is reflected in your posts

,

Have you considered that maybe this was intentional?

These are both unsatisfactory and scum behavior, the first in particular. Pressure is fine, but I want to emphasize this goes beyond pressure to whole fabrication. If you want to shift gears and explain what you found town in posts that you

made a case for being scummy on

, by all means go for it, but I have a hard time believing that you consider extended fabrication of entire thought processes, reads, and reactions to others to be town play with the goal of success in mind.

These are both things that were just my subjective gut feeling, that they were

not what I wanted to focus on

because of it, and I explicitly said as much:

I think these are extremely weak/more just my own perspective than the above post though, which is what I really want more on, because that post on Drealm makes 0 sense to me.

The fact that you included them anyway and dedicated just as much space to them, knowing ahead of time that I had already admitted they weren't objectively credible and were only my intuitive feeling, really rubs me the wrong way here.

There shouldn't be anything surprising about me wanting to address everything that's put to me. You're reaching.

-- Postie

Again minor and subjective in comparison to the above.

[Prism]

Another placeholder until I get home.

[Prism]

Still not a fan of voting AC, I have to doublecheck on Wraith since I haven't paid that much attention to him when reading since the start.

Can't find the post right now but I remember Nacho asking me what I thought about his case on Wraith. The tl;dr is I thought it was hot garbage.

[Prism]

I see posts upset about me lurking/not catching up when promised.

Someone should review my ISO-I've been consistently behind, but only twice did I fail to immediately followup when promised. I've had repeated flurries of activity, typically on cue. Hardly constantly lurking.

Only thing I remember bothering you earlier was my post to nancy. What's changed since?

[Prism]

Prism, do you have a read on farside?
Infinity: i'd rather not. i like the slot and their progression on us. i do want them to comment more on what they weren't present in the thread for.

Replaced nancy who I had as likely town after their final response in our early debate. Skimming farside during catchup it is apparent they take more effort to read.

[Prism]

For the people who seem to think I am likely to active lurk as scum, here's a quick link for you:

Scum PT for my first game onsite

I pretty meticulously documented exactly what I was doing and why, skip to the last posts in the PT for my thoughts on activity.

If I had all day to play mafia I would gladly sit here for all eternity. That's not even a joke nor exaggeration.

[Prism]

Hot garbage.

From an objective standpoint I shouldn't have made those-as I'm confident you'll scumread them-but you'll have to excuse a bit of selfindulgence.

This continued "nacho will scumread this" posting kind of bothers me

Directed specifically for Nacho, whose meta with me has led him to think it town. This is the most valid of the three.

By the way I also don't like how prism is mainly going for "objective tells" instead of trying to get into people's heads, it could be playstyle but I'm expecting a little bit more than "postie lied she's scum!!!"

Really? A lot of people were blasting me early on for my scumreads on AC and I believe nancy, which were

too subjective

and I've gotten more than enough flak since for my TWC read.

The only time I've done this is with Postie, and I've made it clear it's a lot more than that she lied period, but that I think an entire read change+reasoning is bullshit. My TWC read I made it clear that I was looking for something I could verbalize, not something objective, and again I've given

plenty

of subjective reads since. Original AC read, nancy, Wraith, TWC, original on you, Empking, new AC read. Several I have again gotten a ton of flak for and are not easily missable.

Nothing else to say except that prism's case on AC is continuing to feel like a stretch, and possibly a scummy one. He seems to be picking on weird stuff that is just not AI.

Not only do you not explain this,

at all

, you're making no mention of my evolution of the read whatsoever-even when it's apparent in my own ISO over time, with one of then being before this post.

Edited to fix quote thing.
Simple mess to clean up

[Prism]

Prism, can you talk more about the T&B read? I've continued to push scumreads that I no longer believed as town in the past to get reactions. Why wouldn't town do this in this scenario?

You've got to be joking if

this

is the read you want more on. I've typed it to death plenty already, and reframing the case yet again in an attempt to get you to understand is both way too much to do on my phone (as was my last post) and just keeps me from reading the rest of the game, 0 new knowledge contributed or acquired. Go ISO if you want it.

[Prism]

@Ari-I messed up the quote tags a bit, it's supposed to be three quotes from Infinity with my responses in between. Do you mind correcting this?

Edited to fix Bolding

so the mod doesn't miss it!

[Prism]

Fuck it I give up who needs bold tags anyway?

[Prism]

get that a lot of the overly assertive diction choice is purposeful but some pushes too far for my taste.

Why does that make it scummy?

This #6 in particular hits upon what I mean with regards to the tone, reading more accusatory than investigative. Probably a playstyle difference but still a negative factor.

ok...

Imagine typing this sentence as town. I don't see why you ever would, except to artificially bolster your own rhetoric.

Why wouldn't town artificially bolster their own rhetoric?

The dismissive attitude here, along with the condescending advice, again really rubs me the wrong way.

Why wouldn't town be dismissive/condescending?

While I recognize that these are valid questions (and that I prompted you to explain more about it) this highlights a bit of what I mean. All of these things quoted are things that I subjectively find scummy and think that town

wouldn't do

or think that they have ill intent, and you're asking me now to base that more in objectivity.

First of all, why do I see the most emotion from you when you're defending yourself?

Simply because I'm a lot more sure on my alignment than on others. I actually am pretty aware of this-my "Nacho will scumread this" actually originates in the fact that he's seen me defend myself extensively in two games as scum, and less so the game he saw me as town.
I was signalling that I was cognizant of the sample he's seen, but that I was willfully opting to do this anyway.

Second of all, why do you spend so much effort proving all my points wrong when even I admitted they may not be AI?

Probably because you called for a flashwagon on me?

[Prism]

It's possible that I'm expecting you to try to get into people's heads more given the effort you're putting in when you're here. That's more the problem, not as much objective tells. Your new AC read and your TWC read are definitely not objective, but they're vague and I don't see evidence of you considering the world where they're town vs one where they're scum.

Also:
Early nancy read-- "question that leads nowhere" seems pretty objective to me
Original AC read-- 108 pointed out posts that lead nowhere and an unexplained read change. Again, seems pretty objective.
Original read on me-- You said you liked the miller claim and liked that I was "prodding outside the observation realm". Again, seems pretty objective.

Etcetera. Most of your early game reads seemed to be based on objective tells. I'm not 100% sure this is AI, but I'm 100% sure it's there.

Gonna go into 965 more in my next post but the read progression doesn't affect my view on it at all.

These are all pushing the envelope, in that spoiler: objective tells don't actually exist outside of mechanics. "Prodding outside the observation realm" is definitely not objectively a towntell, questions that lead nowhere arguably the same.

I don't see evidence of you considering the world where they're [TWC/AC] town vs one where they're scum.

This part especially again has to be a joke to anyone who has bothered seeing my interaction with Nacho.

Starters: #313, #1084

Not even to mention my townread on the Chara head.

Quote tag fixed.
You're welcome!

[Prism]

@Ari I keep messing up the quotes so my apologies, the quote tag should end not where it currently is but at the second one that's just hanging.

ISOing HF there's incredibly little there and I want more, the townreads are fine for the most part even though I don't get the T&B one.

Working on reading the Think slot+Wraith now.

Quick update about TWC, Gin's condescending tone+interactions with Shephard have been awful for the most part, and Nacho's original posts were the ones I originally scumread.
In particular I actually think he best summed up how I felt when talking about Wraith:

Wraith seems to be looking for something to nitpick for nitpicking's sake

This was mostly how I felt about his page 11 especially in regards to me.

Nacho's stepped his game up x10 since even if I think I've kind of laid the path for him. Gin's townread on Shephard I don't townread Gin for but I agree on and think it works against him if he's scum. I'm fine leaving them to focus on other slots for now.

Can you please quote where you explained exactly why you didn't think town would do that? I looked through your ISO and couldn't find it.

Again an annoyance more than anything else. It is

ridiculous

to be inquisitioned on how, of all things, extensive fabrication of reads/reactions with

no legitimate investigative intention

is not town behavior. Doubly so when you're harping on about me trying so hard to find objectivity.

[Prism]

Alright sorry I'm tapping out before I get to Wraith, I'm really tired and that one looks like I have to read a lot of people's arguments (@Nacho: I think you asked earlier about what I thought of yours-I remember finding the case you presented at the time really unconvincing but I believe you've added to it since)

HF is the Think slot okay, ThinkMomo seemed fine to me for the most part other than the fact that they flaked. Really weak but I liked momo's last post: #745. The only thing I didn't like about HF is his opening post. I want more but also currently inclined to vote elsewhere.

Not a big fan of the people on the HF wagon. Infinity's case and attitude towards me has been bullshit, inconsistent, and unnecessarily nitpicking, both literally excessive and in another that a half to three fourths of it is nonsensical in their characterization of my content. I like the miller claim but it still doesn't exactly fit and I'd be fine voting them. Nacho gets a freebie for now. AC has 2 people I presently like and 1 I waffle on (drealm). I'll review Chara again at another point to make sure they're not just giving accurate reads as scum but my inclination is still no for now.

Next project when I'm awake is Wraith, current lynch preference is in order probably T&B, Infinity, TWC/Wraith/Think, with the first two being a pretty big frontrunners. Doubt there's only 2 scum so current ordering is problematic.

[Prism]

Reviewing in a few hours, either way I'll have my likely final vote for the day up by 3 AM EST (~13 hours to deadline)

[Prism]

I've got an emergency meeting in 20 minutes that is likely going to push my vote which we can't afford. I'm trying to nail it down as fast as possible. I scumread most of A50 but I really want to focus on reading Chara because I think this is an issue of playstyle difference.

HF's case is unconvincing, but I don't scumread the HF slot at all (liked something momo said earlier+HF has been fine).

My gut feeling reading the Nacho townread on AC is that Nacho is scum but that's a big assumption, especially to try and make implications with.

Current inclination right now is vote AC if I have to but I really want T&B/Infinity because I think both of these votes are godawful. (Not Nacho because huge asset if town and I'm still a stalling piece of shit)

[Prism]

VOTE: Chara

Reads are fine but look less legit to me than on first pass, better vote than HF. That's L-1.

L-1 for Chara

Risky with the roleclaims but I think both of these wagons are dogshit.

[Prism]

Fucking christ the last 40 pages are a trainwreck even if this somehow flips scum (which I strongly doubt)

VOTE: Fitz

[Prism]

Fucking christ the last 40 pages are a trainwreck even if this somehow flips scum (which I strongly doubt)

VOTE: Fitz

Ugh wtf Prism

Flashwagoning scjm is a THINg

I'm in the middle of a meeting and just saw the "30 minutes people" without reading the flashwagon AC part until after, ie. thought you had voted and needed another

Either way I don't regret hammering the last 40 pages are a trainwreck and Infinity is either scum or horrifically wrong and for some reason thinks that advocating against TvT wagons is a scumtell.

[Prism]

All the wagons are town I think

Scum is in {dreal, prism, wraith} and maybe empking or someone

Solid 0/4 to 1/4 at best.

[Prism]

Quotes are a bit messed up due to multitasking but the original is all that mattered

[Prism]

Ok then who is scum prism? I have pretty solid town reasoning for AC, TWC, farside and shaddow

In the event you are town you likely have all 3 scum in there so congratulations.

[Prism]

Forgot T&B but top 4 for me are TWC, T&B, AC, and shaddow. I've mostly only had time to read during walks or meetings, latter of which is rude to type up a frenzy during but I'm doing it anyway now.

[Prism]

AC is actually #5 behind you to be more explicit

[Prism]

It's okay I need to play the game at some point, wasn't a complaint but more an explanation of why my posting at the moment is rather haphazard and poorly edited.

[Prism]

It's okay I need to play the game at some point, wasn't a complaint but more an explanation of why my posting at the moment is rather haphazard and poorly edited.

P-Edit: Infinity lists 3 of my top 4 scumreads (excluding Infinity himself) in his townreads. What do you mean how do they fit together? I forgot T&B's existence until the second post so you can edit it to be 2 or 2.5 if you want.

[Prism]

That double post with the preview edit lmao

[Prism]

Prism, how do we manage to become a scumread for you? earlier you said you were confident both fitz and us were town.
~Chara

Do you know what the number 5 is? Do you think this game has 5 scum?

[Prism]

Yes, I expected to be in a haphazard, horribly edited posting frenzy in the middle of a meeting.

[Prism]

Anyone who thinks Shephard is scum though I'm not sure if anyone thinks that at this point should slap themselves

[Prism]

What a whirlwind of joy this has been.

Don't know whether to be sad about the Nacho death or happy that a scumread died. Probably more the former.

Tendency I've seen on MS is people going for more straightforward kills but I don't know how well that holds and have to think on it some more.

I'm pretty sure Empking is town.

[Prism]

Town doesn't want a mislynch on town; wants to lynch top scumread instead

More breaking news coming at 11

[Prism]

This is beyond silly.

Give me back Nacho.

I'll take Wraith's claim for now even though the purposely scummy bit is sketchy. I'll doublecheck on flavor when I have time.

Drealm needs to play mafia even more than I do.

[Prism]

Someone's going to need to explain that flavor claim to me. Arguably makes sense using WW2 but he appeared to have watched a lot of the British Empire slip away, and personal backstory seems more indicative of a backup role.

[Prism]

Wraith if you can quote the early game attacking between me/drealm that'd be nice, I remember drealm buddying me more than anything but I believe I still defended him early on.

[Prism]

Well Wraith I guess I'm mafia.

I also think Infinity is scum and have for the past ~25/30 pages now.

[Prism]

Drealm I love you but I'm not who you should be addressing right now.

[Prism]

Drealm is imploding but I still doubt he's scum, even if contradictinf himself (Crucify me for the differing stances on T&B and Drealm if you want but I still maintain T&B's early game was bullshit)

@Infinity: Which push? Inebriated and can't look right now.

[Prism]

Scratch that sober me can look later that's a stupid question.

[Prism]

The push to have drealm replace out if he can't play a certain way/up to your standard is shameful.

I'm still deciding on where my vote goes today because I expected this to be the day I basically gladiate TWC. It'll probably go on T&B but some people are still stuck in their dumb TR there so I should have a second (likely Infinity but need to look at CK+shaddow)

Eh it can go there for now I guess.

VOTE: T&B

[Prism]

The crux of T&B's case on me is still that I didn't want to be on a town mislynch until the timer forced me too (or else throw away my vote) which is still hilarious.

[Prism]

Cut out the conditional and you didn't, nope, never happened, what on earth is Prism talking about?

Leave the conditional instead of snipping it for 0 apparent reason and it's fucking obvious where it happened if you read your own last 2/3 posts.

[Prism]

@Ari: I am not voting myself, but instead T&B

Reading the last 10 pages just makes me more and more exasperated and I think it's just time to start a fresh approach rather than relying on people coming to correct conclusions from past input independently.

Can someone walk me through exactly why they townread T&B, for starters?

[Prism]

This is all pretty in line with town drealm. I don't want to offend him, but I get why you would describe it as heavily incompetent, and he can definitely speak without thinking through what he's saying or sorting it out in his own mind first.

As far as the T&B townreads go, we've got one person giving T&B a townread for playing, and one person giving a meta read that I can probably disprove if I check, so that's the next step here.

[Prism]

He actually is pretty close to being neck deep in calls to policy lynch him, he gets me as a freebie mainly due to me having fallen for that trap twice already.

[Prism]

You saw my attitude toward dreal early in the game. He was extremely jittery and gave off emotion that came off to many as fake. I know this as typical drealmerz play.

But to so badly "misread" my comments, and then to change his story several times with equal lack of comprehension, breaks my limit. As I've been saying, I can't help but interpret it as malicious rather than innocent incompetence.

It'd be some awfully pointless malice with a timebomb attached to it. My argument that he's not always the most well thought out works both ways but you're suggesting more willful intent than I think would be present even if he were scum.

I still think your reads are really off, in particular townreading T&B for

playing mafia

. This goes double when the other head has essentially flaked and is too afraid to post out of fear of messing it up.

[Prism]

Prism's push against T&B is flawed. The main thrust of the initial argument seems to be that T&B's posts didn't reflect them backing off Drealmerz and that Drealmerz didn't really give them a reason to back off like they claimed. For one, I don't think that you need to make posts reflecting the strength of your read against someone and be 100% truthful about it. Secondly, the posts he outlined as 100% not coming from someone who was just pressuring were empty rhetoric, and, as I've talked about before, empty rhetoric is a fairly common way to pressure someone for pressure's sake. Finally, he makes the claim that "drealmer giving content was never an issue" which, to some extent is true, but pretending there's no difference between Drealmer's 80 and before and the content he produced after that is borderline insane.

However, I would be interested in hearing Postie's response to this post here - why didn't you let Superjack know that you were feeling doubts to your drealmer read?

Still the best thing Nacho posted all game even if he got elements of my argument a bit wrong. (In particular, empty rhetoric isn't exclusively scum play, but I think it was scum play here.) Postie's reaction to drealm reads nonsensically from a town perspective. It's not impossible or horrible for town to fake a read or use empty rhetoric depending on the case, but I

strongly doubt

that this was one of those.

T&B still blatantly bullshit that interaction with drealm through and through, in particular that they never really scumread him.

[Prism]

Call me a broken record, but Postie's interaction on Drealm is still something I consider damning, and their push on me is just the nail in the coffin on that.

The core of their thrust is that I "didn't want to be seen wagoning town" when I literally wound up voting both wagons despite thinking they were TvT-forced to by looming deadline, pushing my strongest scumread through the entire time.

I'm not saying I'm town for it, but the idea that me not wanting to vote two likely towns unless I had to is a scumtell is

ridiculous

.

[Prism]

hey look, prism makes the partial scumread case on T&B for me

you're tops, prism, tops! LIKE ROYALTY!!!

Ok, I love Prism's tone but this buddying and over the top tone is ridiculous.

VOTE: Prism

Please explain how this drealm post justifies a vote

on me

, I'm begging you.

[Prism]

There you go, okay.

[Prism]

I'm actually going to make the judgment call of defending drealm more here.

I called him out for buddying me and finding it scummy earlier on, multiple times. I don't think he'd continue doing it like this. This reads legitimately to me.

I'm reasonably sure he's town. I'm again not going on this. Almost/Wraith/T&B/Infinity all moaning "What happened to your scumread?", incoming. Eat your heart out.

[Prism]

To rephrase, Drealm scum requires three things here:

1. Drealm consciously decided to buddy me early on
2. Drealm saw that I was scumreading it
3. Drealm decided to floor it off the cliff, getting scumread by everyone else in the process, in the hopes that not only would

I not scumread it

, but that I would

kick it fully into reverse to save him

He

has

to know that buddying me isn't helping his case at this point. He's had to know that for so long if he's mafia.

The only way I can see this being possible is if he'd be trying to incriminate me going down. I don't see drealm playing this way to begin with, and even if he was I think he'd realize he's going over the top with it.

99% sure this is town.

[Prism]

I'm actually going to make the judgment call of defending drealm more here.

I called him out for buddying me and finding it scummy earlier on, multiple times. I don't think he'd continue doing it like this. This reads legitimately to me.

I'm reasonably sure he's town. I'm again not going on this. Almost/Wraith/T&B/Infinity all moaning "What happened to your scumread?", incoming. Eat your heart out.

The thing is, he attempted to pick and knaw at me all game in Memory and he's started to do the same thing here. Do I think there's a chance he's town, but the caring about that theoretical possibility knowing he's driving everyone else insane is just making me not want to care.

Twice he's done the picking and gnawing at me, twice he flipped town and I regretted not saving him.

This is more legitimate, organic, and clearly less thought out than both of those attempts combined.

I'm not making the same mistake again. I'm not liking this opportunistic push that appears to be rolling with Wraith and CS, the latter of which is almost certainly town.

[Prism]

I really wish either drealm or Zombiecho could just give me a 3 shot dayvig, because Infinity/T&B/Titus all need to go.

[Prism]

The godworship of TWC is nauseating and makes me want to vomit on my computer.

I'd throw up the organs, too, if I could.

[Prism]

Current thoughts:

Town: Drealm, Shephard, Empking
Probably Town: AC, Wraith (?)
No idea: Shaddowez
Kill With Fire: T&B, Infinity, Titus

[Prism]

I'm scum with him I don't need to list him.

(He's the third name in the town list)

[Prism]

I cannot wait until T&B quotes me not wanting to be on another town mislynch as a scumtell, I really can't.

A50's posting undoes every step forward Chara makes.

[Prism]

Hey, Prism. How about you provide us your lynch pool with reasoning? T&B is a no go. AT one point -today- we had 7 voters on 6 different wagons. That's a 1.167 vote per wagon. We need to consolidate.

By the time I decided to give in you had 2 votes on you and dreal had 3. Would you have rathered I voted you?? If that's the case just say so and I will gladly comply. Right now I think dreal is more likely to flip scum than you, but if you tell me the opposite I will trust you on it.

~A50

Ignoring subjective evaluations about our skill value, voting drealm is exactly equivalent to voting myself. He's town. They are equally horrible. Feel free to move it to me if you desire, it makes no difference.

T&B should not be a no go, period. If I recall correctly your slot also scumreads the CK slot, and no explanation on that front should be further necessary from

your

perspective beyond curiosity.

[Prism]

Titus saves the day and replaces CloudKicker!!

Not sure if I should be happy or sad here. I always like playing with Titus, but this is a SCUM SLOT, and Titus will just win this for Scum.

However, just in case we're both wrong (myself and Chara that is), along with the three heads of TWC, I'm going to give Titus a chance here. If she can drive a lynch on a scumster today I will probably drop the scum read on the slot and call it bad play from her predecessors. Can you do that, you majesty?

P.S. Inb4 someone says I know Titus' role: Titus is a female herself. I also have it on my notes that the slot's flavour is Queen Victoria, but O can't remember if it was explicitly claimed or if I deduced it from a crumb.

~A50

I am correct in my memory. I already gave you a palatable alternative, together with Infinity though I can't recall your stance on him.

[Prism]

And I spent all day voting there all alone. CK is now Titus. That's obviously a no go either.

Call me crazy, but if a player is in a scum slot, they should be lynched.

Not sure if I should be happy or sad here. I always like playing with Titus, but this is a SCUM SLOT, and Titus will just win this for Scum.

Like I'm just confused, do people on MafiaScum just throw in the towel when they think a player is better than them or what? You think they're a hardcarry scumslot but your reaction is to just let them roll? Between this and the TWC worship we might as well just hold an annual sacrificial festival in their honor.

[Prism]

I actually am looking at the game Infinity played with a scum Postie prior to her replace out and at first glance it does seem significantly different. I doubt it holds over multiple games but I'll find out and reconsider accordingly if so.

[Prism]

I do get that Prism himself said that will get back to TWC's concern, but your phrasing gives unnatural assertion, so I'll only ask you this once: Are you guys Masons?!

Yes.

Ignoring subjective evaluations about our skill value,

voting drealm is exactly equivalent to voting myself.

He's town. They are equally horrible. Feel free to move it to me if you desire, it makes no difference.

This is a fucking horrible last 7 pages and I'll deal with it later.

[Prism]

To clarify, 734 was directed at Drealm, not at me/TWC.

Wraith needs to take a goddamn timeout along with Infinity because both have been either scum or solid deadweight tunneling two town practically the entire game.

[Prism]

I'm not going to have time until later tomorrow but I'm in no rush to end the day and speedlynch Titus. I don't get many shots before I die, I've been hasty before, I want this to go right.

If CS is town I want to make damn sure they are before I bet on it.

If T&B is town I want to know.

And I want to sink my teeth into Infinity.

[Prism]

@T&B:

Why on earth would you

ever

want a mason recruiter to claim as such over a regular mason?

Seriously, walk me through that one. Scum is going to claim no shots 100%, in the event I was a recruiter we'd have just lost our shot at a third for

no reason whatsoever

by having me claim.

As far as everyone asking why I confirmed the mason claim, as Titus pointed out it's really,

really

obvious to anyone who's paid attention who the second was. Even if you didn't pick it up the first time, if you look for it it's clear, especially to the scumteam.

On the other hand, some townspeople are

still doubtful of the claim

from us even after all this garbage. I think it was a clear play for the best.

[Prism]

My favorite part of this is T&B deducing that I claimed recently, yet the answer was apparently to flail in confusion instead of just reading for it.

[Prism]

Titus pointed out that by PoE it had to be me if I recall correctly, regardless the point is moreso that anyone who bothered looking would find me easily. Not claiming directly only wastes time and leads town in wrong directions.

Scum trying to get me to claim, perhaps but I really don't think it would have taken much effort on their end.

[Prism]

Bleh. I'm gonna go meta Prism and hopefully that'll make me feel better.

-- Postie

Wow that didn't make me feel better at all. I'm just... I'm just gonna put this out of my mind until we get or don't get a mason flip because there's really nothing I can do right now with this.

-- Postie

Elaborate.

[Prism]

Prism, it would be very helpful if you did that meta check on postie so I know I'm not crazy.

I concurred on the one game sample that Postie's play was different, have yet to go over more.

[Prism]

I am again not in any rush to end the day. I see 0 point in rushing it.

[Prism]

You do all realize we have 8 days and that close to every single one of you admit to having know earthly idea what's going on?

Why on earth do you refuse to take this time to catch up for the sole reason of having a Titus flip 6-7 days earlier when a mislynch takes us to MyLo?

[Prism]

Not mad at all, was very confident Titus was/is scum.

Just wanted time to read CS/T&B, which I haven't had the past two days. I will now that night has shifted the extra two days back.

[Prism]

Pretty sure Empking is real.

Pretty sure Infinity is fake.

See Titus is godmother, scum knows there's likely to be a cop, town has no idea. Claiming miller leaves only one scum vulnerable.

[Prism]

Godfather AND Miller for a 1-shot cop doesn't make much sense either

You're right, it doesn't, not just because I doubt Empking is one shot but because I doubt you're miller.

[Prism]

Say, Infinity, you sure you're King Edward?

[Prism]

I was/am lazy and didn't review. Any grilling for that is deserved.

[Prism]

@A50:

Wraith was roleblocked by town, farside flipped it and scumread Wraith iirc. Either way it's more likely than strongman. We also had a claimed bodyguard making any hit elsewhere inherently risky.

VOTE: Infinity

[Prism]

Infinity, the person who knows there is both a godfather and a miller in the game, votes the only cop.

[Prism]

@A50:

Wraith was roleblocked by town, farside flipped it and scumread Wraith iirc. Either way it's more likely than strongman. We also had a claimed bodyguard making any hit elsewhere inherently risky.

VOTE: Infinity

What do you mean by risky?? They would've either killed one of you Masons OR ended up killing the BG anyway. They did NOT target you. They targeted the BG claim directly. That doesn't make much sense.

I always try to solve the game by putting myself in a scum mindset. If I was Scum why would I shoot the BG over 2 Masons and a claimed Cop whom I BELIEVED to be a Cop? And I explained why the 1-shot part didn't make sense with his play, so he's either multi-shot or he is lying. If he's lying then he is Scum. If not then he is multi-dhot and Scum would have shot him over the Masons, and certainly over the BG claim.

~A50

Bodyguard is different from my understanding of it so my apologies, but I still don't think it makes much of a difference, especially given the new definition. This explains why he fakeclaimed, at least. It doesn't make sense to shoot suboptimally if he's a bodyguard, but I have a hard time imagining that no one has figured out that optimal play is to do as Wraith did.

Double that his flavor claim made no sense and several people pointed this out.

[Prism]

You can claim that it's possible to have no cop, but to pretend that both's existence doesn't make it

significantly

more likely that there's a cop is ridiculous and you need to be killed with fire.

[Prism]

Neither do I at this point, the last scum is in one of you/shaddowez/AC but god only knows why no one wants to lynch Infinity.

P-Edit: Sorry, to anyone not named Infinity. 2 of those are also not like the other.

[Prism]

Infinity:

Hunt in my and TWC's ISO if you want it.

In fact, it might be time to lynch a Mason. We are currently 8 (presumably 6 vs 2) so with a mislynch and a NK we are in MyLo. Mason claims should generally be tested BEFORE MyLo/LyLo.

But why was Titus pushing Dreal???

~A50

You don't "test" mason claims. They're not something you "test", except maybe if there is or will be like 5.

Especially

with only two. LyLo is the

only

time lynching one is on the table. Lynching one of us leaves the other to just get nightkilled next.

This is beyond stupid. It's 10x worse to mislynch a mason before LyLo than it is to mislynch a VT.

[Prism]

Okay, this just got even dumber. You absolutely lynch mason claims in LyLo if you think they're scum.

[Prism]

Where's Chara?

Chara?

CHARA?

[Prism]

...No, it's not, and it's demonstrably suboptimal, numerically.

[Prism]

I'm glad your idea of a witty reply is to piledrive the town chance of winning into the ground if we're town, ignoring that it is

an equivalent chance of a town win

to lynch us tomorrow if we're scum, with a significantly higher degree of confidence, just for the sake of saying something you think is cool.

I mentioned this to drealm already but I'm so done and over with this game and that's part of why I'm lazy. Deep down, there is a part of me that wants to get lynched and get it over with. Scumread the AtE all you want.

[Prism]

Most optimal play arguments

at least

can say something is optimal if someone does turn out to be scum.

This isn't even the case here. It would literally be equivalent

even if we were mafia

.

It is a

de facto, guaranteed dominate

strategy to not lynch me/drealm today.

[Prism]

I'm more just annoyed that I have to explain that if these are the possible payouts for two different strategies:

If town If mafia
#1. .5 1
#2. .25 1

That they should take strategy #2 in both cases.

[Prism]

Spacing is a bit messed up due to typing on my phone but you get the idea

[Prism]

Realized I meant strategy #1 not #2 but regardless I should just stop complaining and wait for Chara

[Prism]

Brazen proddodge

[Prism]

I've got time on my hands so I can review Empking and Shaddowez for a bit.

I really, truly can't read A50.

I'm not sure if I've posted this before but I confirm CS as fruit vendor, going more in depth I got an image as a "gift" as follows:

The backdrop is a world map with India emphasized by having its flag overlayed.

It features the text "Malta is free from the Reapers...We will get all of Britain free!" at top and bottom.

Written over India is "N1 Infinity India" and to the right is a picture of a crossed out reaper from Mass Effect. I speculated for awhile as to whether the play on "Sovereign" being the name of a reaper was intentional or not on Aristo's end.

I interpreted this as a result that Infinity was from India and is anti-sovereign, rather than that he was given India, hence why I asked if he was sure he was King Edward earlier in the day.

[Prism]

I just realized India was pasted over Italy rather than in its natural place, boy am I slow on the uptake.

[Prism]

Really ambivalent on Shaddowez.

Most of his reads have been extremely on point, his reactions and evolution of thought processes seem pretty organic.

#1253, #1257 are one example. Correctly refused to touch the drealm vote with a 10 foot pole, correctly townread me even if it wasn't really followed up upon. He also scumread TWC and Wraith going into both nights, the first of which I agreed with and the second of which he explained well, and it seems unusual to have

both

die. His read on the Titus/CK slot was solid.

On the other hand some of the interactions bother me, some examples include CK's #1725 and his clueing of Titus with #2377. #2959 isn't an interaction but is really, really lacking.

[Prism]

I'm very confident you're town. I'm almost as confident Drealm is town, if that tells you anything.

I'm at the crossroads of figuring out the four in Empking/Infinity/AC/Shaddowez.

I think Empking is town right now, having trouble reading AC+Shaddowez, I currently want Infinity to hang.

[Prism]

Also T&B, whoops.

[Prism]

If I had to pick right this second, I'd probably pick Infinity and T&B.

Third place goes to AC.

[Prism]

What do you make of AC tunneling me when you and I share similar reads and thoughts?

A50 clearly scumreads me as well is the issue, and is basically being told that I'm a no go.

Bluntly, A50 has never made sense to me this game, at any point in time.

I have no problem acknowledging what I don't know, and I have no idea how to read this person.

Chara has bothered me repeatedly but has played a clean game at minimum and is mostly intelligible.

[Prism]

Massclaim is something I was pondering the other day and am strongly in favor of.