Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)

[TwoFace]

Sup

[TwoFace]

I want to have fun.

VOTE: gamma

Plus I don't know why

[TwoFace]

VOTE: transcend

Not liking his posts so far. feels fake

[TwoFace]

i have a feeling this is going to be one of those games where majority of the action happens while I am asleep.

[TwoFace]

well that was a useless post

[TwoFace]

BUT I'M OBV TO--

Oh wait, I'm fosed by two people who can't read me for shit

Well I'm right here if you want to engage me.

if you play scummy, you get read as scummy. if you are down I guess stop doing shit like the following

making post 86 and post 87 and then almost immediately make post 89?

plus your post 93 is implying this is scummy, but that basically sums up your play...

not to mention 100 and especially 101 are completely unnecessary and comes off as fake and trying too hard to appear town.

so if you aren't scum, i'd suggest you work on playing better instead of discrediting the people who misread you.

[TwoFace]

I actually feel quite good about this I am going to double down

second

VOTE: transcend

[TwoFace]

your posts may be short and sweet and to the point but they don't really do anything to explain your thought process and the progression on some of your thoughts make no sense which is scummy

[TwoFace]

TwoFace, do you have much experience with Transcend?

we have played before. why?

[TwoFace]

so according to search, this would be our 3rd game playing together and he played in the game I modded.

Something happened in one of our games cause he pm'd me asking if it was ok to sign up in this game with me.

[TwoFace]

@gamma

1. What was i supposed to know with regards to your RVS vote on me?

2. off topic but sort of not. in a game we played, Rask mentioned BigYoshi in a post made to me. I never understood why but you were involved in the conversation. Do you remember what the relevance was? I only ask now because he is in this game and the name sounded familiar.

[TwoFace]

VOTE: MortFeld

Not liking his responses here. It looks like he's just looking for things to attack.

can you walk me through how you see somebody asking questions and translate that into attacking? I don't understand how anyone could make that leap.

[TwoFace]

fishing for something you can incriminate me with

interesting you jump straight to him trying to find something he can incriminate you with. I typically don't see innocent people with that type of paranoia...

why if you are a town, would you assume he is trying to incriminate you instead of trying to understand your thought process?

[TwoFace]

cool seems like Transcend and I are both town again

can you explain what he has done that's townie? I don't see it

[TwoFace]

Mort feels more town to me rn tbh

agree with this btw. mort was trying to figure out things and bym didn't react well to it.

[TwoFace]

Feels like real paranoia.

why would town have paranoia?

if it feels like real paranoia that means he probably has a reason for that. that reason wouldn't be because he was town...

[TwoFace]

Yeah. He wouldn't be worried about me being scum, but that's not present in 45.

45 doesn't imply he is worried you are scum, it implies he is worried you are trying to find things to make him look bad. something if he was town he shouldn't worry about.

[TwoFace]

It's the number, quantity, and lack of depth. Like a machine gun.

meh that's really weak

[TwoFace]

What about Mort/Yoshi?

what about them? I have given my thoughts on both recently, need something else?

[TwoFace]

Right now I still lean town on mort but it is a weak read, some of his later responses I don't like the conclusions he made so I could see the possibility of them being scum together

[TwoFace]

If BYF comes back with what I think he is going to come back with, I will definitely endorse a byf lynch.


@titus, I see transcend hasn't appeared in your iso at all. Thoughts on him please.

[TwoFace]

Him and gamma have the 2 largest posts...

what are your thoughts on Gamma?

[TwoFace]

TwoFace went as far as to say "worry". I'm not worried or paranoid

that post certainly implies you are...

[TwoFace]

Like how much experience? I'll discuss my purpose for asking if I receive an answer.

i've given an answer btw. so can you now discuss your purpose?

[TwoFace]

if you interpret somebody asking you questions as they are trying to incriminate you, then yes in my opinion you are worried about them. If you have nothing to hide you should not be bothered by anyone asking you questions, especially when the point of this game is to ask questions.

[TwoFace]

So, you've called out Transcend for his lacklustered posts. I am trying to determine if your interactions with Transcend are genuine. With Transcend, I don't think posts like he's made so far are out of the ordinary for him. I'm not sure if this is materializing into anything, yet.

why couldn't you have said that before hand? why did you need to know what my experience was?

[TwoFace]

Worried about them being scum, I guess.

That makes no sense

[TwoFace]

So, you've called out Transcend for his lacklustered posts. I am trying to determine if your interactions with Transcend are genuine. With Transcend, I don't think posts like he's made so far are out of the ordinary for him. I'm not sure if this is materializing into anything, yet.

why couldn't you have said that before hand? why did you need to know what my experience was?

I feel like if I told you, you might not have given me an answer and discarded it as nonsense. If you only played, say, 1 game with him, then you probably don't have an accurate sense of their play and would give less validity to how you're interacting with Transcend. You have 3 and thensome though.

Not sure why you would think I would avoid answering a question.

I still don't understand what me playing with him has to do with anything. I don't let meta affect my reads. I encourage others to do the same.

[TwoFace]

Worried about them being scum, I guess.

That makes no sense

So the only logical conclusion to you is that I'm scum and I am worried about him fishing to incriminate me, because I am scum.

I'm not 100% sure you are scum yet but I'm definitely leaning that way.

In a game where the best way to scum hunt is to ask questions, to be suspicious of somebody doing that doesn't really make sense from a town pov.

If you have nothing to hide you should embrace somebody trying to figure your alignment out

[TwoFace]

It didn't feel like scumhunting, it felt like fishing.

To me they looked like questions trying to understand your reasoning. That's absolutely scum hunting. a player should be able to explain their thought process or reasons for doing something. So yeah you being suspicious of somebody for trying to understand your thought process is suspicious, especially when town should be transparent.

[TwoFace]

29 and 35 are clearly direct questions trying to get you to explain yourself. They were good questions because your reasoning wasn't clear.

If you are town and you honestly find that suspicious, I'm confused because I see no reason why anyone could/would be suspicious of that. (Boy that was hard. The old me would insert an insult here).

I mean I purposely leave off reasons to force people to ask me follow up questions so I can see who's interested in scum hunting and who isn't. You think follow ups are suspicious.

Very strange

[TwoFace]

I encourage others to avoid the pitfall of failing to note that there can be a large variety of playsyles and perspectives

Writing off somebody as town because "that's how they play as town" or "that's just their playstyle" are very bad habits that people really need to stop. Mimicking town play as scum has to be the easiest thing in the world to do.

If a person does something scummy you should find them scummy. If they do enough scummy things you can move that to a scum read. Ignoring scummy behavior because of meta is one of the reasons why town loses more than wins imo.

[TwoFace]

Hiraki unfortunately I have an aversion to wall posts so if there's something in that for me I won't see it.

[TwoFace]

Yes judge me based on my play. Not my ability to double vote. That's how all players should be treated.

[TwoFace]

I see. But it can be scum?

Any role can be scum

[TwoFace]

That said the last mafia double voter in a mini normal was in 2009.

[TwoFace]

I'm not sure how much that changes my GE read. It definitely changes it somewhat.

Nah. He should tr me for my play not my role.

[TwoFace]

153 is a bad ass post. I'm surprised that didn't generate more transcend votes tbh

[TwoFace]

why do people think transcend is scum?

I explained why earlier.

[TwoFace]

That said, could you guys please tell me why you refuse to read wall posts?

Mainly because I have ADD, second cause I'm on my phone most of the time and it's harder to read big walls of texts. It's easier to break them up into separate posts so I can skip the things I don't care about and focus on the stuff directed at me.

[TwoFace]

Town have extremely legitimate reasons to worry about looking suspicious. People can and are misinterpreted and mislynched.

Town shouldn't care how people perceive them. Town shouldn't worry about being mislynched. Especially if you don't do scummy things. Every townie who's been mislynched has been guilty of doing things that they shouldn't have done. Lying, lurking, contradictions, whatever.

Be transparent, honest, and active and don't worry about how you are perceived. That's how I always play. Go look at all my games. I give zero fucks what people think of me. I tell the truth, I stay active, and I call things as I see it.

(See this is why I don't like reading wall posts. This post does nothing to help the game, it's a mafia theory discussion )

[TwoFace]

disagree but whatever

[TwoFace]

which circles back to my opinion that if town players do what they are supposed to do, people wouldn't think they are scummy. but whatever like I said this is mafia theory discussion.


Read my 153. If this is town transcend then he is playing poorly. I don't think it is town transcend though.

[TwoFace]

Examples of these random potshots? Cause I see nothing like that.

[TwoFace]

VOTE: MMM

Probably the best wagon so far.

Why?

[TwoFace]

Examples of these random potshots? Cause I see nothing like that.

His entire ISO looks like that to me. :/ I don't see follow through or analysis. Just a random question out in left field I cannot find out why he's asking.

Interesting. I'll have to look over your iso again but I definitely think I've seen more scum hunting type posts from him than I've seen from you.

I can tell you from my own personal experience that just because somebody doesn't follow through right away or post analysis, they aren't doing any.

[TwoFace]

VOTE: MortFeld

Not liking his responses here. It looks like he's just looking for things to attack.

See this is a bad vote imo. Mort looked to be legitimately scum hunting and you attack him for it. Asking questions =/= looking for things to attack especially if he hasn't attacked anything yet. Which he hadn't.

[TwoFace]

Btw your " looking into transcend " per my request comes off as fake since it took you a minute to respond with your thoughts.

You are scummier than mort right now imo.

[TwoFace]

@mod, since you have my votes for transcend on a different line as others, wouldn't it be easier to combine them on to a single line?

fixed

by my count Transcend and Gamma are at L-3.

can't tell if that Gamma wagon is left over from the rvs wagon or are those serious.

Right now i'd like either transcend or yoshi lynches but could go for a titus lynch.

[TwoFace]

why? right now I have a a bunch of people that could be scum and none of them are doing anything to make me think otherwise.

p.edit - probably not

[TwoFace]

I've already bolded a request to the mod to fix the vc

[TwoFace]

For real? What's so scummy about it?

I feel like this has been discussed already

[TwoFace]

Contradicting one's self is a horrible thing to lynch people off of. And, the way you are perceived IS important--no one listens to the person they think is scum.

Scummy != scum. We all mistakes and we all do stupid stuff. Furthermore, town is more likely to make mistakes and more likely to own up to them.

Nobody would lynch anyone off contradicting themselves but if they have a body of work full of scummy things (cough transcend cough) they should definitely be in the lynch pool.

And sorry I play with an I don't care how people perceive me attitude and I'm able to convince people to lynch who I want usually. If you play honest, you can't be scummy. When people try to do things to make themselves look town or do things (or in some cases don't do things) because they are afraid of how they will be perceived, that's scummy.

Take transcend's "I'm going to obv town " statement. There is literally no reason a townie should have to say something like that. His entire iso is basically LAMIST (look at me I'm so town). It's forced and unnatural (not to mention scummy) and because of that I can't trust him. I can't see town motivation for it.

[TwoFace]

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

Blame others for your mistakes. LofuckingL

[TwoFace]

I don't like his progression through the game

I don't like his pre flip associations

Pretty sure he responded to that accusation earlier and explained why his reads weren't pre flip associations and his explanation sounds reasonable to me. So why are you still claiming this when it doesn't seem to be true?

Even if it were true. Who cares? I've named entire scum teams based off pre-flip associations before. Nothing wrong with that as long as the reads change post flip if wrong.

[TwoFace]

But you also haven't read me correct in a single game we've been in and maybe you just have a play style issue with me.

Perhaps take a look at the players who are better at reading me and acknowledge that I'm town.

Maybe if you're town stop doing scummy things?

[TwoFace]

If you play honest, you can't be scummy.

I agree with all of your wall but for this conclusion.

Well I've yet to see you play honest and you say I can't read you for shit so...

[TwoFace]

If you play honest, you can't be scummy.

I agree with all of your wall but for this conclusion.

Well I've yet to see you play honest and you say I can't read you for shit so...

Sorry thought transcend posted that lol

[TwoFace]

I should've just /outed when TF joined this game

But he said he was "new and improved" so i figure I'd give him a second chance.

I'm seconds away from subbing out because I'm not going to be in a game where he's double voter.

I am new and improved. I'm not insulting anyone, I'm not stopping other discussions from happening, nor am I demanding people lynch who I want or else.

That's 3 big changes.

I can't stop tunneling if nobody is going to put forth a decent case in somebody (which nobody has yet)

[TwoFace]

Transcend if you're scum I'm very unhappy with you.

Regardless of his alignment I'm unhappy.

[TwoFace]

Replacement requests aren't AI. A read on him shouldn't change based on him replacing out

[TwoFace]

You may think it shouldn't, but it does for me.

Well I think you are scum so that just bolsters my suspicion

[TwoFace]

He realized TF was not a person he liked and left

And I call BS cause I'm nothing like the other games we've played for reasons I've already explained.

he replaced out cause more people are growing suspicious of him.

[TwoFace]

Ugh, I guess we'll just disagree.

What are your thoughts on MMM currently? I'm kinda agreeing w/ Transcend's sentiment there.

I already said I didn't like transcend hanging on to the fact that mmm made pre associative reads even after explaining why his reads weren't pre associative.

what points do you agree with?

[TwoFace]

I've seen how toxic you can get. I don't blame him at all.

Right and I'm not doing that this game which makes his frustration towards me come off as fake.

Like if I was doing all the things that people say they hated about me, I'd get it but I'm literally not.

[TwoFace]

@twoFace
The face that MMM vote was bad and MMM's progression so far this game.

Mmm has voted my 2 biggest scum reads. So see nothing wrong with the vote.

I don't really understand the progression part. Explain what you think transcend menat

[TwoFace]

@ ircher if you compare transcend vs mmm. I feel hands down transcend has played scummier

[TwoFace]

I'm not trying to insult you, but I've really got to disagree. You're not being super toxic, but a few of your attitudes could be perceived as toxic and could absolutely drive somebody away.

You are basically saying anyone who pushes on a scum read is toxic. That's terrible logic

[TwoFace]

Your apparent unwillingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's feelings about the game.

I have no clue what you are even referring to with this one.

[TwoFace]

1. When people scum read you the natural reaction is to defend yourself and explain why those people were wrong. Not get mad and quit.

Town motivation for that - 0
Scum motivation - get people to feel sorry for you and hopefully town read you.

2. Yes they are examples.

[TwoFace]

No, I'm saying that your policies are poor because they don't allow for context whatsoever. You seem to act as though everything happens in a vacuum, when it does not. Some of the things Transcend did could certainly be considered scummy, but you don't seem to consider the larger perspective of why a townie might be motivated to do them

Geese this is like every game I play.

I can't control what I find scummy. I do try to look for town motivation but I don't see any. I also don't see anyone explaining it to me either.

Like why would town feel the need to force people to townread them by doing stupid things instead of just letting happen natural by doing the towniest thing you could do, scum hunt?

Transcend didn't bother to explain to me why he did what he did. Neither did anyone else.

[TwoFace]

I'm referring to your comments about townies being worried about looking scummy.

So I because I think townies should play care free, I'm disregarding people's feelings? Meh that's a stretch.

People don't like losing - I agree so they should scum hunt. They shouldn't decided to make a bunch of BS posts and say "look I'm obvtowning" because you aren't going to find scum that way and you're going to draw negative attention on you instead.

Being mislynched feels like losing - i get that so do everything in your power to prevent that. Scum hunt, ask questions, make good arguments and respond appropriately when people disagree with you. If you still get lynched you at least left behind a good body of work. If you don't do these things you have hurt town, not helped.

Some townies avoid being incriminated - I don't understand this one. Maybe this is a skill level thing? If you give out your honest opinions and somebody disagrees with you and you can intelligently defend yourself, then you've done nothing to incriminate yourself. If you lie, or are dishonest, or do things to force people to read you a certain way than yes you deserve being incriminated.

My game philosophy is quite simple. It's very old school but still works.

The main problem is townies who decide to degrade their town game because they know they can't play well as scum. They have to muddy the waters.

I can't tell the difference between scummy town and scummy scum. Just like I can't tell the difference between townie town and townie scum.

If my opinions of how people should play is toxic to anyone I suggest you stop talking about them.

[TwoFace]

There's pretty much no chance my scum read on transcend is going to go away based on how he's played.

I don't see any town motivation for his actions and I don't see anyone explaining town motivation for it nor did transcend explain his motivations.

What I HAVE seen is people giving him a town read based purely on meta which I am against.

[TwoFace]

His current attitudes have a strong chance of leading to mislynches,

This again also?

Granted this game I get 2 votes, but how would my attitude lead to mislynches?

I am not responsible for the free will of every other person in the game. Let's assume transcend is town and assume we have 3 mafia voting him also (very rare)

That's still only 5 votes. 2 other townies would also have to vote.

How would that be my fault?

What about the townies not on the wagon?

Do you realie that up until this point in the game I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument as to why

1. Transcend is town (this is how he plays isn't compelling)
or
2. Why somebody else is more likely to be scum.

If transcend isn't scum, make a convincing case. Outline a bunch of posts or reasons so I can read and evaluate them to see if I agree.

That's what town should do.

It's really that simple.

[TwoFace]

Hikari Link is super duper town

Not really because he's arguing about mafia theory. He's not scum hunting yet

[TwoFace]

ia that what he's doing? Cause tbh he falsely accusing me of "sort of being toxic" which has this resulted in unnecessary back and forth arguing with him and in the process pissing me off and derailing the game. Which makes this game more difficult to read and actually benefits scum and hurts town cause nobody wants to read pages of back and forth over mafia theory

[TwoFace]

I'm heading to bed. Any comments directed toward me that somehow put blame on me for transcend replacing out or that somehow my play is toxic should not be posted cause 1. It ain't true and 2. It serves no purpose to solving the game and finding scum.

Good night

[TwoFace]

so you think he was mad his mafia partner was lurking and he was mad about that?

[TwoFace]

Transcend and MMM for now

so you think they are scum together? interesting

[TwoFace]

Grey replaces NotTheRealPaul effective immediatly. Please welcome him

damn, now I may have to replace out. Mod is there anyway you can reject this and get a new one?

[TwoFace]

TwoFace is conftown how??? Like I read him as obvtown but conf???

people think because I am confirmed double voter I am confirmed town. while I don't disagree with that because I am actually town, a mafia double voter is technically possible.

that said if I am not nk'd I should probably be lynched before lylo/mylo (which actually will be much earlier with me alive)

[TwoFace]

I'm not paying attention to his posts anymore at this point unless I have to.

Me neither, I stopped after he called me an asshole.

[TwoFace]

we are lynching transcend

[TwoFace]

Doesn't seem like it in this game given he wasn't modconfirmed and only has a single vote in this count:

I had not placed my 2nd vote yet so that's why it was not shown in that VC

[TwoFace]

Transcend is at L-3

[TwoFace]

unfortunately transcend is the only one who has done anything

[TwoFace]

oh god what have you done to make 3 pages while I am sleeping already
I wanted to RVS

Feels fake.

Why? When I woke up to 6 pages I basically thought the same

[TwoFace]

Could also lynch transcend

So could I.

You're at L-1, right?

No he isn't

[TwoFace]

mod the VC is wrong cause it is missing my 2nd vote

See PM

[TwoFace]

How do you know this?

I'm not doubting you, just wondering how people find this shit out.

in the normal game que, towards the bottom of one of the earlier posts there is a link to archived games and it takes you to numbers 1400 - present. There is a link that takes you to games older than 1400.

I search the page for double and found all the double voter roles.

[TwoFace]

so you think he was mad his mafia partner was lurking and he was mad about that?

hmm, now I wonder if this is true. copping grey probably would be a good idea...

[TwoFace]

how is that a lie?

[TwoFace]

388 was will after the to examples he posted in 381, where he said he provided no examples.

the issue is mmm explained his reads were not pre associative, they were just his top scum reads so transcend's accusation that came AFTER mmm already explained that was a false accusation.

mmm didn't lie imo, transcend did.

[TwoFace]

You're really not one to talk, considering your post about me when I hadn't even said anything yet.

For a guy that wants to be evaluated with a clean slate, you don't extend the same courtesy to others.

1. I did not insult you at all. I don't like you as a player and I want to avoid playing with you. that said, I haven't treated you with any disrespect and i have responded to you in a civil manner. as a player already in the game though I should have the right to object to a replacement if I know it's going to negatively impact my enjoyment and possibly the game itself. I have seen that happen before where a replacement was kicked out because an existing player objected

2. I never asked anyone to treat me with a clean slate. not sure where you got that.

[TwoFace]

How do you know this?

I'm not doubting you, just wondering how people find this shit out.

in the normal game que, towards the bottom of one of the earlier posts there is a link to archived games and it takes you to numbers 1400 - present. There is a link that takes you to games older than 1400.

I search the page for double and found all the double voter roles.

Thanks for this.

[TwoFace]

This is you campaigning for a clean slate.

no it isn't. He falsely accused me of not being new and improved and I was showing why he was wrong.

a clean slate requires caring what people think about me. I don't. A clean slate is basically apologizing for my past behaviour and looking for forgiveness. I am not doing that either.

[TwoFace]

damn, so they theory actually could be a reality...

[TwoFace]

No town slip happened.

[TwoFace]

Transcend and MMM for now

so you think they are scum together? interesting

Not anymore

But why did you?

[TwoFace]

Transcend and MMM for now

so you think they are scum together? interesting

Not anymore

But why did you?

I didn't have any associations, I just suspected both of them
Do you see anything that is an anti-partner tell?

Well I mean hard bussing could be possible but don't think that here.

[TwoFace]

Well, with reason of course. You put those people in a group for a reason, right? Their interactions, more likely than not, with each other. Isn't that associative?

Why make the assumption that the people in the scum list are there based on their interactions with each other?

In this case he said they weren't.

You can believe him or not but if you don't believe him you can't accuse him of doing it because you have nothing to support the claim. Aka it becomes a baseless accusation

[TwoFace]

It just didn't make sense in my head to propose a scumteam just based on each individual's actions alone.

Really?

[TwoFace]

Noticed nobody has explained the town motivation for any of transcend's actions.

[TwoFace]

@MOD: -Grey- has been banned and needs replacement

Alt of a previously banned user.

Wonder who...

[TwoFace]

Per the ban thread he's an alt of a banned user.

I have no clue really

[TwoFace]

I'm not seeing either of these two wagons here. Still comfortable with my MMM vote because his explanation on his Transcend mini-tunnel just doesn't make sense to me.

But that's a stupid reason to want to lynch somebody. Just cause it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it wrong/scummy/ or even alignment indicative.

What else do you have in mmm?

[TwoFace]

It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything

Nah it really isn't.

[TwoFace]

Transcend is town because if he's scum I respect him less

So it's acceptable to take your ball and go home when things don't go your way only as town?

[TwoFace]

Transcend is town because if he's scum I respect him less

So it's acceptable to take your ball and go home when things don't go your way only as town?

I wouldn't say so but I would never believe his explicit reason was genuine if he's scum and that's not acceptable to me.

I don't think you're gonna get far with TwoFace.

Why do you say that?

[TwoFace]

damn, so they theory actually could be a reality...

What were you referring to here?

The theory they could be scum together

[TwoFace]

I've played with TF before in a game where he was very nearly PLd as town. I think he is incredibly stubborn but not unreasonable so when he asks me about my reasoning I see no reason not to present it.

I was almost pl'd? What game?

I'm very simple. My scum read trump somebody else. If I'm wrong and should be looking elsewhere make a convincing case.

Nobody has said anything other than meta or gut why I'm wrong about transcend. Nobody from what I remember has made a case on anyone else.

If I've missed a case link it but I don't know why people are scum reading Titus

[TwoFace]

If that was me and I was fed up to hell with the game I'd leave without explaining anything regardless of alignment honestly. Might just be me though.

I don't really see why Titus was fed up with the game though. I clearly missed something

[TwoFace]

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

Both replace outs though were unusual and both while under pressure

[TwoFace]

I still don't get the titus wagon ftr

Yeah I'm still waiting for somebody to explain it

[TwoFace]

Am I the only one bothered that I'm at the top of that list? Even above TwoFace.

I was about to ask why you were top.

[TwoFace]

UNVOTE:
UNVOTE:

Just until I can get a grasp on this game. The next few weekends are super busy and I just ran a half today and am exhausted

[TwoFace]

second

UNVOTE:

[TwoFace]

That's a good post.

[TwoFace]

Sorry mod that was meant for mort

What do you mean? Our posts weren't good?

[TwoFace]

Titus

Why Titus

[TwoFace]

Titus

Why Titus

Kinda weird you asked for Titus, which is the only person listed that I explained my scumread for.

You said that was your preference so why is that weird?

That first post you originally explained why never made sense to me and it still doesn't. I somehow missed the 2nd post and my first thought was why would it be weird for Titus to be convinced by my post when my post as previously stated by me was fucking awesome.

The things I pointed out that transcend did are still undisputed scummy. Nobody including you has explained how any of transcends actions could come from town.

People town reading transcend basically cause of meta or "bad feeling " worry me. But being wrong also worries me.

I'm still waiting for a convincing argument and the closest I've seen to one has been from mort. His post was really good. Why can't you make a good post? Make me change my read on you? You still look like scum pushing bad reasons.

[TwoFace]

Ok, this looks like weak town Transcend. I can't really do much with naked reasons, but that generally is how he likes to play town. So I'll put him as town for now and hope he gives more later.

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

>calling everyone lynching him idiots

I don't like his progression through the game

I don't like his pre flip associations

>not a single example

Titus+Mort/BYF+GE for early scum team imo

Not associating anyone that's just who I think is scummiest atm

Titus for reactions on me
Mort/BYF gives me TvS vibes
GE just feels scummy to me

This is junk

This is junk too

Mort help get the votes off of me lol

>does ate

I'm bad at defending myself unless i ate/wifom which i don't like doing

>talks about ateing next post

I'm sorry is this mafia or is this a fucking popularity contest?

Baaah.

Willing to vote Trans based on this and TwoFace.

These don't coincide well with me, especially if it's TwoFace's 153 post that you're referring to.

Mmm and I both made good points. You find it odd he was convinced by others is weird.

I'll respond to the rest of your posts but most likely I'll be replacing out

[TwoFace]

havingfitz replaces Titus,

This is why.

[TwoFace]

Are you confused on how Titus is scummy for what I've pointed out?

Titus abandoned a meta read for game related reasons. Yes I'm very confused why anyone would find that scummy. Can you explain why somebody doing something pro town is scummy to you?

[TwoFace]

Before you replace out, can we have some discussion over this?
I'll admit, I'm pretty stubborn with reads, and if you legitimately believe my reads and reasoning are likely incorrect, I want to at least understand why.

Sure. I'll be home soon.

[TwoFace]

If I'm replacing out why do you want my opinions so bad?

Cause tbh I'd really need to reread those pages to see the progression of what happened.

Plus my opinions are usually shit according everyone else.

[TwoFace]

Alright, whatever you want. You seemed really... concerned about my reads.

Cause I was trying to see if my scum read on you was wrong, but your reason for scum reading Titus seems weak.

I'm waiting to see what the mod says to my PM but if he wouldn't do anything for grey, I doubt he'll do anything for fitz.

I'll answer whatever you want while I'm here tho

[TwoFace]

Only way I stay is if we PL fitz.

[TwoFace]

Only way I stay is if we PL fitz.

Oh, so you're cool lynching that slot anyway? XD

only cause he is a toxic player and last game with me his play basically was the equivalent of game throwing. I can't remember what my read of the titus slot is anymore (though your push on her makes me think town) I absolutely refuse to play another game with fitz ever again so the options are

1. we use WOTC to reject him as a replacement
2. I replace out
3. we lynch him asap so i don't have to interact or even read his posts (which are usually more useless than helpful because his preference to wall post and rarely directly intracts with people)

I will say that him in this game will ultimately make this game 10x more toxic than it already is.

[TwoFace]

and 882 is proof of how bad he is as a person. me saying I want to PL him is not insulting him yet he is implying it somehow is.

technically you can say 885 is me insulting him, however since it actually the truth I don't consider that an insult.

[TwoFace]

Hey TF just out of curiosity, why don't you replace out of games with Titus? Just lesser degree?

for the most part I forget things that happened in past games. I actually forgot I had Black listed titus.

The game where fitz basically just game threw has recently finished.

I won't say anything else about fitz. I will just say that him and I in this game will not end well.

[TwoFace]

Can we just let fitz have an opportunity to present himself in a civil manner?

you can do whatever you want

[TwoFace]

well that's why I'd rather wotc him or replace out myself. I don't actually like to policy lynch people.

[TwoFace]

the only real issue I had with titus was her bad vote on mort and badly interpreting what mort was doing but I don't really think that was lynch worthy.
Yoshi's reasons isn't that great either.

has anyone else made a good case for titus?

[TwoFace]

your reasons are all meta based and since I hate meta that makes your case a bad case.

show me scum intent behind titus posts. don't relay on how titus plays as a certain alignment in other games

[TwoFace]

I don't fully scum read that slot so I am definitely going to put him at L-1.
I don't even town read the people pushing that slot.

[TwoFace]

you replaced my top scum read. literally no chance I sheep you.

[TwoFace]

mmm and mort

[TwoFace]

my top 2 scum reads are you and transcend. I am not really a fan of Gamma either though. Ircher hanging onto meta reasons don't really look townie to me either. I feel like at this stage he could point to game related reasons.

[TwoFace]

btw it is basically taking every ounce of energy in my body to ignore responding to post 899. The fact that he actually thinks me wanting to PL him is a personal insult just shows what this game is going to turn into...

[TwoFace]

heading to bed. for those who aren't familiar with fitz be prepared for a bunch of these kinds of posts

viewtopic.php?p=9067960#p9067960

I personally hate them for the click/read/back button and then repeat 20/30 more times and would rather direct interactions or at least quoting the entire post instead of providing links but maybe you guys like them. (probably why he and I don't get along. these posts I find incredibly anti town and is usually why I scum read him)

[TwoFace]

you replaced my top scum read. literally no chance I sheep you.

Well I can be your town read cause I'm town

no you aren't. you can say it a bazillion times but you aren't and you will probably be the lynch today if I have anything to say about it.

[TwoFace]

Ok well consider my 2 votes on fitz. So in theory he's at l-1.

Can't put up with those anti town wall posts and lack of player interaction.

Wheme you get a break today I guess.

[TwoFace]

I don't think so.
TwoFace have you seen fitz violate his team tell?

No idea what team tell you are talking about

[TwoFace]

Well since he hasn't provided any reasons for anyone or voted anyone how can anyone answer that question?

For the sake of everyone else I'm letting fitz post today. Tonight before bed I'm casting both of my votes on him. I won't be responding to anything he says to me. I don't have the patience to deal with him.

[TwoFace]

I have no idea if he's broken it before. My memory is terrible

[TwoFace]

Can you please just posts without taking shots at me. Thanks

[TwoFace]

I'm actually making an official request that you don't even talk to me or mention any thoughts you have about me or anything I've said. Just pretend I don't exsist in this game.

[TwoFace]

I'm actually making an official request that you don't even talk to me or mention any thoughts you have about me or anything I've said. Just pretend I don't exsist in this game.

Is that necessary? I mean, I get if you don't want to read what he says and everything, but I know I'd like the opportunity, in case he does flip town.

Do you want 40 pages of him and I arguing back and forth? because as soon as he says something that isn't true or I disagree with I am going to respond to it. He will in turn respond back and it will be 40 pages of us arguing.

I have this inability to ignore things. I still am forcing myself not to respond to all of the posts he has made thus far and I know as soon as he makes those wall posts and mentions my name all hell is going to break loose.


I really don't understand why he replaced into this game. When I replace into a game i look at the playerlist and if I see somebody that I know is going to create issues, I refrain and move on. He knows that we don't get along together. A reasonable person would recognize that it probably would be a good idea to avoid joining not only for the sake of the game but for the sake on himself being able to enjoy the game. I am vain enough to think he actually joined because he wants to make my life miserable. i can't see any other reason why he would join.

[TwoFace]

Inb4 TwoFace is giving his scummate a reason to ignore him

trust me, he won't listen to my request.

buckle in for at least 15 pages before i leave work.

I tried to warn everyone. All hell is about to break loose as soon as he makes his first wall post.

[TwoFace]

2 people have hiraki as their top town read. seriously wtf am I missing about hiraki?

[TwoFace]

Am I the only one bothered that I'm at the top of that list? Even above TwoFace.

I was about to ask why you were top.

And in case my tone wasn't clear, MMM, I'm looking for an explanation.

@ mmm, I noticed you have not posted since Sunday but have logged in this morning.

I would very like an explanation as to why hiraki is your top town read.

[TwoFace]

Yes I'm aware of the other player. Only thing I remember from you is the wall post which certainly isn't a reason to town read you.

[TwoFace]

but making a good post isn't AI

[TwoFace]

That's basically how I feel about myself lol

[TwoFace]

Can somebody else ask fitz to explain his town reads. The last game we played he refused to do so and the person he refused to explain ended up being scum.

Somebody's said they care about his opinions in case fitz flips town so it may be helpful to have his thoughts.

[TwoFace]

Sure, but he's given us the options of forcing a replace or lynching fitz, and said he'll L1 him tonight. Sounds like a PL to me? I get that there are people on the wagon who scumread titus, but it seems like this fitz lynch is looming for the wrong reason

Let's not call it a policy lych. Let's call it a a consolation lynch instead.. It is clear my top scum read is not going to be lynched. Nobody else is making a solid case for anyone else. Time is running out so I will consolidate my votes on the next biggest wagon.

better? consolation lynches happen all the time.

[TwoFace]

Sure, but he's given us the options of forcing a replace or lynching fitz, and said he'll L1 him tonight. Sounds like a PL to me? I get that there are people on the wagon who scumread titus, but it seems like this fitz lynch is looming for the wrong reason

he had 5 votes on him for the "right reasons" (I am assuming since I don't see you really questioning those voters)

why would him at L-1 make a difference? L-1 isn't a death sentence. It isn't even a guarantee he will be lynched.

[TwoFace]

lol at fitz thinking titus replaced out because of me yet I was the one trying to find out why people were voting her

clearly titus pulled a transcend. both replaced out while under pressure. At least transcend was put the blame on somebody. titus left without anyone really knowing who she was mad at.

if anything that is probably more suspicious than transcend's replace out.

[TwoFace]

maybe you should just request a rule where no mods are able to start a game or allow replacements unless players have been vetted through you? smh...

A friend of mine replaced into a game and was kicked out a couple hours later because 1 player objected.

I do think there should be a rule that prevents people from replacing into games with players they know they don't get along with.

Like when I'm forced replaced 20 or 30 pages from now it's going to be your fault. You replacing in is intentionally provoking me.

[TwoFace]

I'm going off memory here but didn't you replace out of this finished game you are referring to because of Titus? Yet you forgot you black listed him?

And to say I threw a game where the last two people I was voting were scum...before I was mislynched in large part due to you...and in which town won before even getting to LYLO (iirc) is a misrep/lie. Hard to throw a game that town wins. smh

I'm just looking for a friendly game of mafia. I'm hitting the hay so if I'm still in the game tomorrow I'll finish my read through and give my reads/vote.

1. Yes I forgot I blacklisted him
2. You were voting kop for a single incident that happened Day 1. EARLY day 1 at that (your issue with him was voting without reading everything first). You came in day 3 AFTER a scum lynch and dropped a vote without reading (see the issue I had with your vote? See the similarities between you and kop?) you had no legit reasons for your scum read on kop. So yay you found scum based purely on luck.
3. You ONLY voted the one of the scum because he was the alternative to you. This other scum just so happened to be the person you were hard town reading almost the entire game and refused to explain to anyone why. You did a 180 out of the blue. Your other vote of scum was purely omgus and people were town reading that slot.

You refused to answer direct questions, your pushes lacked any reasoning, your more serious votes only came after you were under pressure of being lynched, and you basically did nothing to help town. Multiple people thought your play was terrible. I'd say hand down it's the worst performance I've ever seen from anyone.

4. If you were truly looking for a friendly game of mafia there is zero chance you would pick this game. A friendly game of mafia doesn't consist of joining a game you almost always have a fight with. Unless you enjoy fighting with me which means you've proved my point of having bad motives. No sane person imo would play a game with somebody they don't get along with.

[TwoFace]

OK...so my morning greeting to the game is more unfounded animosity from TwoFace

This is the biggest load of crap. You knew before you even replaced in that you would receive animosity from me.

[TwoFace]

HOLY SHIT STOP IT

Sorry. If I am forced to play with him, I'm playing with him.

Y'all had your chance to wotc him with me. Nobody did.

[TwoFace]

I post long walls with links to comments typically only when I am catching up from several pages (ex. after weekends or when replacing in)

You make these kinds of posts more often than that. Mainly cause you avoid posting daily. The problem with these posts is it is impossible to read and respond to on a mobile device cause you have to keep going back and forth in your browser. You can't easily quote specific information without losing the hyperlink to the post number and by the time you reach the bottom you've gone back and forth 30 times. Hell its difficult to respond on a computer also for essentially the same reasons.

Im willing to bet most people would prefer you quote a post, say what you have an issue with, and move to the next post. Plus not everything you include in these posts need to be included. You throw things in that have either been answered already or are now irrelevant.

I can understand doing it after catching up from a replacement. But doing it after a weekend or any other time after the catch-up is completely unnecessary. You actually hurt town by not allowing them to directly interact with you. Which is something you don't really do unless it's a back and forth argument.

[TwoFace]

Your behavior since I joined has been reprehensible. If you stop whinging about me there's no reason things can't be completely civil...smh.

1. If it's so bad maybe you should leave. You want to enjoy a friendly game of mafia and you knew before you joined you weren't going to get that with me.

2. I can't be civil with somebody who I hate and who I just mislynched because of you intentionally played terrible. That's why I consider it game throwing cause your play wasn't like any other town havingfitz game I've ever seen and I've seen plenty.

[TwoFace]

So we're chaining replace outs now...?

no. Not sure why that quote made you think that since we were talking about why I was replacing out...

[TwoFace]

I actually think you make solid points but what IS shit about you is your attitude.

My attitude was fine until the person who knows we are like oil and water decided to replace in. It's like a guy walking into a room filled with explosive gas and lighting a match. The outcome is known before he does it but does it anyway.

I wanted to play a game without any drama and first I get accused of being toxic when I wasn't and now a player intentionally replaces in this game knowing that we can't be civil with each other because historically we've never been able to be civil and he acts like he has no idea that I'd be mad about it.

[TwoFace]

2 people have hiraki as their top town read. seriously wtf am I missing about hiraki?

The fact that one-size-doesn't-fit-all.

Huh?

[TwoFace]

That's a good post. I had forgotten he was also on mort's case for asking questions.

[TwoFace]

VOTE: fitz

second

VOTE: fitz

He's at L-2.

[TwoFace]

Ha... Grey notices the same BYF unvote delay on Transcend as I point our earlier.

this is hilarious. Hilariously bad.

Fitz is actually trying to take credit for noticing something that somebody else already noticed first.

[TwoFace]

Ok so ask somebody who said it was scummy

[TwoFace]

Yes I said it's bad cause it is. Although it's actually something fitz is narcissistic enough to do as either alignment but something he could easily do as scum.

In the end it's not AI.

I'm just kind of poking fun at his post. He's posting things that nobody cares about for the sake of looking busy. It's just Information without any real analysis (which used to be considered a scum tell until people started doing them as town. I assume because they were terrible at playing scum and had to dumb down their town play)

[TwoFace]

Welcome to my world.

Oh you knew what you were getting yourself into, yet still decided to join...

Why would somebody who's "just looking for a friendly game of mafia" join a game with somebody they always fight with?

[TwoFace]

And I noticed that after I call out your first wall post as iioa you quickly abandoned the format.

[TwoFace]

Go f**k yourself

[TwoFace]

Like what is he even talking about. What multiple excuse post?

[TwoFace]

I'm just posting this to show the read through was in work

Wow look how townie you are...

[TwoFace]

Doesn't like mort making excuses yet...

Late...going to bed.

[TwoFace]

And I noticed that after I call out your first wall post as iioa you quickly abandoned the format.

Is that scummy or...

Yeah that one is because he's deviated from something he always does. Most likely to appease me since he knows he has to kiss my ass

[TwoFace]

/confirm

I'm going to read and catch up on the 33 pages of nonsense this thread is likely to be and then throw my hands up in exasperation before claiming I've got no results. Gimme a day or two.

Unvote

until further notice

He is

[TwoFace]

What happened to the night crew?

[TwoFace]

oh I thought he was at L-1. I will be civil and leave him at least at l-2

unvote

[TwoFace]

VOTE: fitz

fuck civility

[TwoFace]

I don't think we have a watcher in this setup...

[TwoFace]

I mean it's possible with mod fuckery, but odds are probably not

[TwoFace]

@TwoFace, Why not?
UNVOTE: fitz

reasons...

[TwoFace]

I have reasons to think the likelihood of a watcher in this setup is very small percentage based on historical data

[TwoFace]

@fitz

Spoiler:

Your play in this game (and others) goes beyond unacceptable.

why is my play acceptable? because I don't want to play with you?

My play has been find until you replaced into this game. I asked the mod to reject your replacement and was told no. I am not going to be forced out of this game because you decided to join to intentioanlly troll me.

YOUR replacement in this game was completely unacceptable.

In this game alone you have had major issues with four players

This is an outright lie. I have only had an issue with one player. YOU. I was here first. GTFO and the issues are resolved.

you weren't quite as bad as you have been in this "new improved" version of you.

Interesting that before you replaced into this game I wasn't bad at all. After you replaced in I became bad. What does that mean?

YOU have pissed me off by joining this game and my only options are to lynch you or replace out and since I was here first I am not replacing out. The fact that you say you were looking for a "friendly" game of mafia is clearly bullshit because you know that you and I butt heads every game we have ever played so there was no ideas in your head of a "friendly" game when you chose to join.

You are obviously socially challenged.

Go f yourself. I do not appreciate this kind of insult. The fact is in real life I am completely different than I am when i play mafia.

And to say you hate someone on this website who is just trying to play a game is psychotic. Someone who your primary objections to are related to post formatting!?

that is a 2nd insult which is completely unnecessary, and your post formatting isn't the only issue I have with you actually and I gave a bunch of reasons already. glad to see you are actually reading...

I will not avoid playing in games you are in

Actually yes you will. This is an official request to please avoid me in the future. If you refuse I will have to escalate the matter. There is no reason why you can't act like a responsible person and agree to my request.

[TwoFace]

Alright
What happened to not voting claimed PRs D1?

When I have information that suggest the claim is probably fake, that doesn't apply

[TwoFace]

As for this game...I'm not scum. I can't defend anything Titus did but those scum reading her are wrong (or scum). Assuming someone else doesn't lay a vote on me in the meantime...I'll give a little more details on my reads shortly as promised.

See this post is bad for multiple reasons. (The spoiler also)

1. Nobody asked you to defend her actions yet I think it's the second time you've said something similar
2. Why instead of making a post towards me, didn't you take that time to explain your reads? If my behavior is bad, fueling thst fire by giving me more things to get mad about makes your behavior equally bad.
3. Why do you even need to explain your reads in general? If somebody asks for an explanation give it but if nobody is asking you should just be scum hunting and pushing your scum reads.
4. You have yet to do any scum hinting or pushing scum reads. If you are town you should show it by acting like it.

[TwoFace]

Alright
What happened to not voting claimed PRs D1?

When I have information that suggest the claim is probably fake, that doesn't apply

Aka confbias against someone you have a personal problem with. Same old same old.

Can't find a double voter and watcher in the same game? Must be a fakeclaim then

Does your historical research show that PR make up is exactly the same in all games with a double voter? They're all exactly the same?! Wow!

Or...just more of you trying to get rid of the slot you weren't even scum reading before I replaced in instead of your actual scum reads. I see.

Figures you think it's conf bias.

Double voter/watcher isn't what I'm checking for but nice try.

The historical data shows that watcher appeared once in 10+ games with the information I have at my disposal and another role or variant of it pretty much every other time.

[TwoFace]

My reasons for not believing his claim has absolutely nothing to do with my personal dislike of him. I don't game throw

[TwoFace]

VOTE: wheme

second

VOTE: wheme

Just going on record that I'm fairly sure the claim is fake so I'll just vote my other scum read and try to ignore fitz.

@fitz regardless of your alignment you've crossed the line already with those 2 recent insults. I'm going to ask you keep my name out of your posts unles it has something to do with the game. Any more discussion about my attitude, behavior, past games, etc should not be posted anymore. Please respect my wishes and I'll try to do the same.

Thanks

[TwoFace]

For the sake of the game I'll just not respond to that. If anyone else wants me to respond I will but eliminating all discussion between us is probably least toxic.

[TwoFace]

I will say that question 3 is an answer I'd actually like answered though
I'll ignore #4

[TwoFace]

Anyone familiar with Titus know if she crumbs?

[TwoFace]

Thanks fitz. I find it odd you are willing to explain stuff so easily

[TwoFace]

Not a shade. I earlier said in my past history with you, you refuse to explain things so I just find your attitude change odd.

[TwoFace]

Wheme has done nothing since replacing in. His predecessor was scummy.

Can we please lynch him? If fitz is lying we'll know soon enough

P.edit. Thank you