Newbie 1817 - Bolo (Game Over)

[FancyPants]

VOTE: adilm29h
None of us want to remember this name for the rest of the game.

[FancyPants]

Am I the only one who wants to see all the cute animals (and whatever GreyIce posted).

[FancyPants]

Aster and GreyIce scum team, God I'm good.

VOTE: Aster

[FancyPants]

You know, I've made up my mind. ^^
I'll compromise.

UNVOTE: Gorny
VOTE: FrozenMagpie

Stop folding, you're making the game too easy.

[FancyPants]

Explanation for new players:

An example of a possible scumtell that just surfaced: why did Gorny take the posts seemingly seriously? Is he just unfamiliar with the process, or did him feeling threatened because he actually was Mafia form a contributing factor?

That scum tell sucks, but you seeing scum tells in pedestrian behaviour gets you paranoid town points.

VOTE: Gorny

[FancyPants]

@32 the aster post.
Point1: I wasn't trying to suppress discussion, but fair point I probably could of let it run a bit.
Point 2: Town-points mean just that, meaning I found your behaviour to be town - if wrong.
Point 3: The Gorny vote was to rustle his jimmies a bit, I didn't like his defensiveness in 23, of course if I say I'm making the vote to get under his skin a bit it loses all meaning, in a way your under-mined me like I under-mined you in point 1.

Also with regards to the personal attack, it wasn't meant as such I was just being blunt, perhaps too much so.

[FancyPants]

I also have a question, on why it says peoples roles underneath their name?
Is this a bug?

Is this the most adorable town tell ever or fiendishly clever .

@Gorny, early thoughts?

[FancyPants]

Hopefully people are just busy on the weekend, what are your thoughts since you're about?

[FancyPants]

Hopefully people are just busy on the weekend, what are your thoughts since you're about?

Uh, I'm not really thinking much. You and Aster have a small thing going but I don't feel like it's really indicative of anything. You could both be town or you could both be scum or you could be 1town and 1scum. If what you said earlier had been worded differently, there might not even have been a debate at all.

Pretty non-committal, how do you feel about Asters 3 point case on me?
@Gormy, just seemed eager to appease Aster, any scum leanings thus far?

[FancyPants]

Just a heads up I'm generally pretty inactive on weekends, I'll get a chance to catch up a bit more tomorrow night Sunday (GMT +2).
I saw a question about experience while skimming - I have a lot of experience on a different site, played Town of Salem and play in real life occasionally. On this site I have a few games (less than 10), I'd say I'm an intermediate.

[FancyPants]

Back at work - time to get paid to play mafia.

[FancyPants]

I'm inclined to think adlim's "role under our name" comment as town, it could be a nefarious scum post but it's pretty ballsy if that's the case.

Aster I still have the same opinion of, they strike me as the kind of eager town who uses point by point analysis and confirmation bias to confirm suspicions. Paranoid town behaviour is exactly how I would describe it, I'm a little concerned about how much GreyIce gushed about their play, makes me think it might be a buddying attempt but niceness isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I kinda like Mothergothel's OMGUS of GreyIce, I'd generally consider OMGUS to be more town behaviour coming from Newbs based on "The people attacking me must be scum since I know I'm town" kind of logic. Rather than a "Whelp there are people attacking me and I'm scum, they must be on to me." kind of response which I don't feel we got.

Aster:
The Paranoid Townie.
Noting the Aster vs. Fancypants interaction, the OMGUS comment
in 11 how he "would love" to OMGUS (I think?) FancyPants, then
he flip votes to FrozenMagpie. Also noting his 17 where he has
it out for FancyPants before the Aster vs. FancyPants line. Then

there's his 22 where he scum leans me. His 30 is his push on
FancyPants. Then his 61 diretcted at adlim.
Seems this guy really is paraniod and is all over the place. I
can't yet get a read on him really.

He "seems" town but Eh...is he?

Aster is null, possible scum. Maybe not screaming scum but
possible scum. Though, I have no experience with Aster, while I
have a slight scum ping for the Aster v. Fancypants thing, not
sue if Aster is scum so I'm going with null with a side of town
lean.

@Gorny, in the below post you headline Aster with the "paranoid town" tag, but then come to the conclusion of null to possible scum, how do you reconcile this?

Early scum subset would be scum in {Gorny/GreyIce/lurkers and non-contributors}

[FancyPants]

Oh and Greyice, said I might be an alt, I'm not I'm just someone who's interest in mafia waxes and waynes over the years, but you can operate under whatever assumption you like. I've played a lot of mafia off site and with friends over facebook/other chat applications.

[FancyPants]

Can everyone who hasn't provided scum reads do so please?

[FancyPants]

@FancyPants, you seem to have conveniently forgotten about Aster being paranoid, he said it himself, and it was in a post directed at you. Here, let me refresh your memory:

@FancyPants: I, Aster, the highly paranoid and absolutely insufferable townie, demand an explanation as to why you just voted Gorny.

I haven't, I was referring to you calling him/her a paranoid townie, and then finishing your synopsis by saying he was null or scum-leaning.

[FancyPants]

Townie being the operative word.

[FancyPants]

Are you all American, or do you just have good work ethic?

[FancyPants]

Are you all American, or do you just have good work ethic?

What is that supposed to mean?

BTW I am American, and at work on a beak.

I won't be contributing much until late tonight, around 12 hours from the timestamp of this post.

Meaning I'm GMT +2 and my activity hours tend to clash with Americans.

[FancyPants]

Why did you specifically ask gorny for thoughts? Also why did you vote Gorny in 25?

I prefer narrow focus in mafia, but I did ask everyone for their scum reads. Of the active player's I find Gorny to be one of the least town hence why I'd like more thoughts from him.

My exact reason was that he seemed to unvote Aster when he was pushed a little, and he hasn't done anything to convince me he isn't scum, his read list featured mostly null tells which I find pretty scummy as well.

[FancyPants]

I was about to suggest that if adilm were scum then he could've asked this in the pregame mafia PT, but I realised I dunno if their PT was open during pregame.

@Mod

May I ask if the mafia pair's PT was open during pregame, ie. the period between role PM's going out and the game officially beginning?

For what it's worth I like this kind of thinking, I'm not sure it will amount to anything but paranoia is a town tell for me.

[FancyPants]

So that makes Aster/Draynth/Adlim as early town reads, game is going to be easy.

Sorry about all the double posts, it's just stream of consciousness.

[FancyPants]

I also have a question, on why it says peoples roles underneath their name?
Is this a bug?

Is this the most adorable town tell ever or fiendishly clever .

So this is the sole reason for your town read?

Pretty much, in adilm's very first post he fails to vote properly, a few posts later he points out the bug, a few posts later he asks what a scum read is a scum tell and what scum are in general,

Now it could all be a fiendish plot, but for me the simplest solution here is that he is just a newb and a newb town at that.

No reads are set in stone, but I'm doubtful that a brand new player comes on to the site and decides (without any knowledge of how anything works) he's going to attempt a scum gambit with no guarantee that such a gambit will even be town read.

Occam's razor says newb town.

[FancyPants]

Meh I don't know if it's a time zone issue but I'm just getting into this game and it seems quiet.

@Xa ligha, if you were absolutely forced to kill one of the players in the game right now, who would it be and what would your justification be?

[FancyPants]

@Xa ligha, if you were absolutely forced to kill one of the players in the game right now, who would it be and what would your justification be?

...what?

What's up with you questioning my probes before the person I direct it to even answers.

[FancyPants]

Because the question feels like a scummy one to ask

In what sense?

[FancyPants]

Hey, I just got out of school a bit ago. I'm working on my reads right now. I was wondering if a reads list or bracket reads are usually preferred in this site?

However you prefer.

[FancyPants]

Because the question feels like a scummy one to ask

In what sense?

Seems like a potential WIFOM setup

I don't see how, I'm just trying to get him to commit to a read, if I ask him who's scum he could just hedge and say "IDK too early to tell lel".

[FancyPants]

Also I forgot you were the other SE (draynth) so less town points for you, just by virtue of being experienced.

[FancyPants]

I don't see the difference and still think he should answer, just pretend I asked:
@Xa ligha, if you were absolutely forced to lynch one of the players in the game right now, who would it be and what would your justification be?

If it makes you feel better. It's just a way to force him into committing on a scum read. I understand that Draynth thought I meant who would he NK but that's not what I meant for the record.
I don't see how knowing his scummiest read, can affect the NK at all.

[FancyPants]

I don't see the difference and still think he should answer, just pretend I asked:
@Xa ligha, if you were absolutely forced to lynch one of the players in the game right now, who would it be and what would your justification be?

If it makes you feel better. It's just a way to force him into committing on a scum read. I understand that Draynth thought I meant who would he NK but that's not what I meant for the record.
I don't see how knowing his scummiest read, can affect the NK at all.

You seem to misunderstand. Consider the following scenario: Xa ligha answers and says he would kill Alice (I'm not going to use a real player name there for soon to be obvious reasons.) The next night, Alice gets NK'ed.

Clearly Xa isn't stupid enough to kill the person he said he wanted dead, so of course the mafia is framing him. Unless Xa is mafia himself and is trying to make it look as if the mafia framed him to make him appear town. Unless... [WIFOM unfolds]

By using the word "kill" you are drawing more attention upon Xa's answer than when you'd have merely asked about "scumread", because there would be many "best scumreads". By having one clearly marked "kill X" target instead of many "I think X is scum" targets, you are giving the mafia a single unique target they can kill to generate significant amounts of WIFOM while leaking very little other information; in fact, if Alice were to get killed in the above situation, we may as well write the kill up as "Mafia killed Alice to generate WIFOM. Alice wasn't mafia. We know nothing else." And we'd be robbed of our opportunity to learn from the nightkill.

Also, now I have written this out, even not killing Alice would induce the question why the mafia passed up the opportunity.

And these questions aren't going to help us hunt scum, they will only distract us from it.

I know what WIFOM is, I just find this whole argument utterly ridiculous, scum are always going to know who the townie's scum reads are if (assuming xa light is town) and more importantly ARE DIRECTLY DIS INCENTIVISED to kill people who the town find scummy.

I think this whole further WIFOM set-up is a huge stretch.

In any case I would rather not argue this further since I don't believe it's getting us anywhere, and Xa Light has already answered my question super poorly because he was allowed to hedge.

[FancyPants]

Because the question feels like a scummy one to ask

In what sense?

Seems like a potential WIFOM setup

I don't see how, I'm just trying to get him to commit to a read, if I ask him who's scum he could just hedge and say "IDK too early to tell lel".

IMO, bad way to get someone to commit to a read.

If you ask someone who they think is scummy they can:
- Claim they don't know.
- Claim there isn't enough information.
- Hedge the shit out of their answer in general.

As opposed to putting them in the position of a day vig, where they absolutely have to commit, I couldn't disagree more strongly that this is a bad question. I believe I've used it before (as town ofc) and never gotten this kind of weird response.

In any case I'll drop it.

[FancyPants]

@Gorny, what are your best bets for scum at the moment?

[FancyPants]

Hey, I just got out of school a bit ago. I'm working on my reads right now. I was wondering if a reads list or bracket reads are usually preferred in this site?

FrozenMagpie where is the follow up?

For what it's worth I consider inactivity to be a scum tell. Scum have a harder time manufacturing posts and therefore are less incentivised to be active. It's not 100% active but as you get inactive town and active scum, but I do believe there is a general bias, particularly in Newbie games.

[FancyPants]

I'm with Aster here, brevity can sometimes be important but I don't see how posting a lot of content can ever be scummy, even if some of it is fluff.

Draynth since you're around who's scum and why?

[FancyPants]

I agree with you both, but in Aster's 178 it seemed to me like what adilm said was being interpreted differently, now I see that's not the case so fair enough

Haven't a clue FancyPants, I understand that's probably frustrating given the fact that I kicked up a fuss for you asking something similar to this to try avoid the answer I'm giving, but I really don't have any scum inklings at the moment. I'll reread and see if anything in particular stands out.

Please do, we're lacking some serious hustle at the moment, and we can't even just gang up on the lurkers since it's the majority of the player base.

Still waiting for people like Gorny and Frozenmagpie to weigh in.

Drayth

[FancyPants]

Catching up now, I'll do a read list, give me an hour or two.

[FancyPants]

First addressing some of the questions that have been directed my way.

Firstly asking someone to commit to a read simply means I actually want you to give me a scum read without bullshit hedging. Saying things like: "I don't find anyone scummy." , "I'm not sure really sure about anything but maybe..." and "He could be scum but I'm really not sure.".

All of these things don't help at all, because without your opinion there is no way to analyse someone, now town players sometimes hedge as well because they are unsure which is fine, but NOT giving an opinion because you are unsure is very anti-town. When I say commit I just want you to give me a firm read and reasons. I understand people change their minds throughout the day, I'm not asking you to never change your mind.

Now as to my questions about who he would shoot, all I am trying to do here is get him to commit to a scum read. It's as simple as that, in fact I have used this question as town before, examples:
viewtopic.php?p=8498613#p8498613
and
viewtopic.php?p=8389655#p8389655

The phrasing might be slightly different but it's the same theme. In both cases I asked those question to players who actually were scum (you can check) and the conversation that followed help get them lynched so it makes sense I would use it again.

That said I understand how Gorny took it incorrectly as me wanting his opinion on a scum NK, I will phrase the question better in future.

-----

As for Gorny, I do see some scum hunting but I'm not completely convinced it's genuine, I don't like the fact that he's unwilling to vote, and I don't like his reasoning for his suspects. For now I'm still very much figuring Gorny out. On that note:

@Gorny here you say:

Im reading your last post as fancy pants was asking me who I would kill if I were scum. Is this an inaccurate representation of what you Said?.

Yes.
He did not say if you were scum in his post, but that's the way I interpreted it, I get the feeling that he was asking you that if you were scum but left that part out.

If he is scum, it's pretty ballsy.

I've bolded the part I want to talk about.
Then you say:

Why misrepresent what he said? 144 said he was asking for my scum reads. If you think he's lying Say that instead.

I do think he's lying.

FP care to explain yourself?

So you think it's a ballsy scum play but you still think I'm lying? Why are you so convinced something is scummy but by your own words you think that's a "pretty ballsy" thing for scum to do. I'm with Xa Light here it it feels like you're mis-repping me a bit. Whether you are stretching the evidence to fit your theory or doing it for scummy reasons remains to be seen.

----
As for Mothergothel I somewhat see the case on her based on lack of any real content, but I'm not sure I agree with being defensive as scummy behaviour, it's pretty natural to want to address suspicion on yourself from both alignments. I'm happy with the pressure on her, but not willing to vote her just yet.

----
Drayth, need more from him, I feel like he's just popping in and posting the bare minimum, I had an initial town read on him for what looked like some early scum hunting, but he's an SE and it was a weak town-tell. I think it's fair to say that my townie feelings for him have dried up.

----
GreyIce - Said a few sensible things, but also a few game related comments I disagree with, null need to develop this read more.

----
Aster - town.

----
Adilm - town

----
Xa Light - town (probably)

----
FrozenMagpie - probably lurking scum.


I'm happy with my vote on Gorny for now.

[FancyPants]

After a quick ISO on Mothergothel I think I'm being unfair on her, I can see a genuine attempt to figure out the game from her.

I like adilm's interaction with her in terms of - it feels like it's being done by a townie, but I think adilm is wrong in this instance.

Scum are probably in [Gorny, GreyIce, Draynth, FrozenMagpie}.

[FancyPants]

As for Gorny, I do see some scum hunting but I'm not completely convinced it's genuine, I don't like the fact that he's unwilling to vote, and I don't like his reasoning for his suspects. For now I'm still very much figuring Gorny out. On that note:

@Gorny here you say:

Im reading your last post as fancy pants was asking me who I would kill if I were scum. Is this an inaccurate representation of what you Said?.

Yes.
He did not say if you were scum in his post, but that's the way I interpreted it, I get the feeling that he was asking you that if you were scum but left that part out.

If he is scum, it's pretty ballsy.

I've bolded the part I want to talk about.
Then you say:

Why misrepresent what he said? 144 said he was asking for my scum reads. If you think he's lying Say that instead.

I do think he's lying.

FP care to explain yourself?

So you think it's a ballsy scum play but you still think I'm lying? Why are you so convinced something is scummy but by your own words you think that's a "pretty ballsy" thing for scum to do. I'm with Xa Light here it it feels like you're mis-repping me a bit. Whether you are stretching the evidence to fit your theory or doing it for scummy reasons remains to be seen.

Can you reconcile the bolded part for me Gorny?
Also did you read my defense, did you follow the links and see that I've used that phrase before?

[FancyPants]

Also Gorny committed a personal scum tell of mine which I will call scumulate. Where you emulate the person who is on to you because you know they are a good towny.
I'm referring to when he used the word "ballsy", like I did earlier about adlim.

[FancyPants]

Fancy Pants, How did I answer your question super poorly other then add that I think aster is also scummy just less so then draynth?

At the time you just said your strongest read was aster without elaborating.

[FancyPants]

So FancyPants, by giving you a chance to explain you self makes me unwilling to vote?

Ok.

VOTE: Fancypants

There you go.

I could agree with this vote.

Based on what?

In fact what is Gorny basing his vote on? Are you all just mad because you're in my suspect list?

[FancyPants]

I don't think it's weird to be worried that the IC is buddying the most active player (at the time).
I also don't think getting involved in every single discussion (especially when you disagree with the case) is productive, but I was happy to see where it went, at least it was activity and interaction (with regards to you and mothergorthel).

This feel like your issue with me stems from two things:
You're annoyed that I disagree with you.
I happen to be defending the person you're wagoning.

While not entirely unreasonable from your perspective, I think you really need to consider that you are wrong in both cases. MotherGothel could be scum but I'm not sold.
If you want a full breakdown about why I think the case is wrong I'd be happy to do so, I'm going out to dinner but will be back later.

Or you're scum ofc.

[FancyPants]

Sorry, let me correct myself, you never actually committed to calling me town, you just "aren't sold" on me being scum. Fence sitting is something that mafia most frequently do.

Only scum KNOW who's town, honestly my worry now is that if you flip scum I'm going to get auto attacked. Truth is it seems like everybody and their dog thinks you're scum.

For what it's worth I don't - but I could be wrong it would be hypocritical of me to ask GreyIce to have an open mind without having one myself, but hint: if you aren't in my scum list of four:

Scum are probably in [Gorny, GreyIce, Draynth, FrozenMagpie}.

I don't think you're very scummy.

[FancyPants]

@GreyIce, if you're going to come at me come at me, this town needs more interaction, we only have 7 days to orchestrate a lynch and weekends are always bad for activity so it's more like 4 day. The rugby championship is this weekend so I won't be active myself.
I haven't said anything I'm not willing to defend so go.

[FancyPants]

For what it's worth I kind of like that GreyIce is annoyed that I'm defending Mothergothel, it's a natural reaction for town GreyIce that thinks mothergothel is scumto be suspicious of anyone who defends her. I can see the thought process here that Greyice thinks I'm chainsaw defending my buddy.

Big call for the the sake of the end game - FrozenMagpie and Gorny for the scum team. Just so I can quote this and gloat when the game is over.

[FancyPants]

@GreyIce If you want to decorate the walls with my blood please feel free, I have nothing to hide.

Do you think it's unreasonable for me to be scared you might be buddying?

Your case on mothergothel (and I don't want to mis-rep you so feel free to correct me) is is based on two major points.
1. Her lack of actual participation, in terms of she has made posts but you don't feel like she is contributing in a meaningful way.
2. Post 101 where you say she is 100% scum for saying the meat of the game just started.


Firstly in terms of point 1, what differentiates her "non contributing" from the other players in the game, specifically taking into account post 99 here I''m talking about people like Draynth, and frozenmagpie (even xa light).

With regards to point 2 do you think it's completely impossible that her comment was referring to the actual content of the game, I personally dread the RVS myself.
Don't get me wrong I completely get your logic here, as scum I just skim the thread and only really focus when someone is accusing me, this is one of your stronger points,

That said I don't think its unrealistic that mothergothel is just happy the real content of the game has started, what makes you so sure this makes her "100% scum". I don't feel like scum mothergothel reacts this way.

Real scum may just skim the thread and then suddenly burst into action when they get accused, but are they excited about it?
Mothergothel just seems eager that something is happening in game, does scum mothergothel see that she is being accused and get excited? For me scum mothergothel replies to the pressure but isn't happy about it.

Everything about her response is town to me. If you disagree explain why. Honestly I'm starting to think this exchange is town vs town. Vote Gorny.

[FancyPants]

.

Interesting comment, are you saying I have a point in my Gorny + magpie scumteam?

Otherwise please explain explicitly.

[FancyPants]

Hmmm.

I'll entertain your rabbit hole. I always like diving into them to see what people are thinking. And... oooh, this one is not terrible at all. This post is all sorts of weird and you didn't seem to have noted it, meaning it's not you latching on to a specific mistake. Namely, well, I'll just highlight it.

Frozen Magpie:

Initially (up to post 49) null. With 53 he pokes a bit at
FancyPants 50.

Another null but slight town read.

FancyPants (Leaning Town)
Aster (Null/town)
Xa ligha (Null)
adlim (Null)
Draynth (Null - like dead center null even)
GreyIce (Null)

FrozenMagpie (Null/possible scum lean)

MotherGothel28 (Null/possible scum lean)

This is the same post. One person and ONLY one person in the town changes their read between Gorny's explanation thing and Gorny's summary - indicating Gorny had initially listed one thing as a read but at some point revised it without changing the read in both places. And you just called them out as a scumteam together.

This is the sort of rabbit hole that might have rabbits.

I meant to quote this.

[FancyPants]

Omit it where?
Please address post 226

[FancyPants]

Oh omit it in post 245 I was just quoting Greyice in 242.

[FancyPants]

But GreyIce (I think that's the point he's making) does have a good point, your read changed from town lean to scum lean without much encouragement (with regards to magpie).

[FancyPants]

@Aster, you might be onto something with regards to GreyIce, but I don't believe any IC on this forum comes into a Newbie game and spreads mis-information to further their win condition.
He may be scum but I that just doesn't happen on Mafia Scum, I actually agree with you that OMGUS isn't a scum tell and may even be a town tell in newbies, but that doesn't mean someone can't have a differing opinion. You can disagree with GreyIce but that doesn't mean he's generating bad information for scummy purposes.

@Mothergothel can I get an update on your scum reads?

@CD, hi welcome to the game, please share your scum reads when you are ready.

@Xa Light, Can you elaborate on post 262 specifically why you believe his behaviour is more likely to be scum motivated?

[FancyPants]

I would like to change my vote
UNVOTE: MotherGothel28
VOTE: GreyIce
GreyIce's profanity and irrational behaviour must tell me that he is some power role. For if it was something helping the town, I feel like he would have spoken differently. But I feel like he is Mafia, for a townie would have no reason to add swearing and be hostile.

Hmmmm.

Usually I find this kind of thing to be a pretty big scum tell, I don't feel like townies are too concerned with who may or may not be a power role, but scum are constantly looking out for it.

CD makes a few good points about adlim as well.

As a general side note, the most terrifying thing for scum is a unified town, let's all try to be less toxic and try and see each others points of view more (myself included).
As townies it can be hard since we don't know who to trust but try to remember that 75% of the player base is on your team.

[FancyPants]

@Adlim, what's your experience with the game, meaning what site did you play mafia at before and was it forum mafia, or are you a town of salem convert?

[FancyPants]

Going to do a fresh reread and see if anything pops for me.

@GreyIce, sorry you're sick! If you're struggling consider replacing out. There is no shame and none of us will think less of you. I know IC's are generally hard to replace but I believe there is a decent queue at the moment with Newbies bottle-necking new games.

[FancyPants]

I haven't gotten to my reread everyone and I apologise, without rereading I still like the Gorny wagon, CD has come in hot and said some sensible things so I know longer think that slot is scummy.

Will hopefully have time for my reread tomorrow.

[FancyPants]

Can everyone please weigh in on the Gorny wagon who hasn't already.

Just what you think of Gorny and why you think that, not doing so is very anti-town and I will treat anyone who avoids this issue with great suspicion.

[FancyPants]

Are you still rereading everyone over?

Planning on it but I've been procrastinating. I think I need a flip to revitalise me.

[FancyPants]

I haven't particularly liked Gorny's response to the pressure though, where is the outrage I expect from a falsely accused townie?
It's not concrete though, I'm equally unemotional most of the time, but I do still think he's scum.

Getting everyone's read on the wagon can only benefit us. Regardless of the outcome, even if Gorny doesn't end up being the eventual candidate.

My reread at this stage may be pointless with my favoured candidate already on the chopping block.

I've already said I'm not a fan of post by post analysis, that road leads to confirmation bias. Over analysis can get one in trouble.

[FancyPants]

Drayth announced that he was at L-1.
I agree with him though just because I want to see someone flip, doesn't mean we shouldn't use the opportunity to gain information on the wagon. (I still want everyone who hasn't weighed in on the Gorny wagon to do so).

[FancyPants]

Out of the remaining players:
adilm29h - I could see it being adilm, yes he hammered Gorny, but as mothergothel says in that kind of situation I do think scum bussing is not that unlikely.
The vote did kind of come from no-where as well since his suspects during the day had previously been mothergothel and greyice, I can see him wanting to hammer to get some credit on the wagon.

I also specifically said I wanted everyone to weigh in on the Gorny wagon, the whole reason for this is to make it easy to track down his buddy the next day, something that I'm not convinced adilm had much interest in.
I feel like he wanted to hammer while he could still get credit for his scum buddies flip.

That said it's the same argument we've had all game about adilm, is he just a newbie who has acted carelessly or a more sinister scum villain.

Xa ligha - My gut call is Xa light being scum, he also somewhat opportunistically jumped on the Gorny wagon when it was gathering some momentum. I feel like scum do this a lot when they see their buddy going down, again it was a bit of 180 in reads as I don't believe he'd said anything about Gorny being scum until that point.

MotherGothel28 - One of Gorny's primary scum reads for most of the day, I also already had a town read on her. My guess would be town but I could be wrong.

cd, rep. FrozenMagpie - Probably town, while a hard bus from day 1 is possible, I was the only one on the Gorny wagon before he arrived so it's not exactly ideal strategy to come out of no-where and get your buddy lynched. The possibility of scum is there but I doubt it. The Draynth kill doesn't suit scum cd either, as he was kind of setting up Draynth as his lynch candidate for today.

Aster - Probably town, don't see much reason to change my read.

GreyICE (IC) - Hasn't really said much of note so by default has to be a scum candidate, that said I have a feeling he is town. Just the way he's gone about his business doesn't scream scum, agreeing with Gorny that voting me is a good idea doesn't strike me as premium scum play. My gut says town.



On the NK it seems like a newb kill to me, Draynth had pretty bad interactions with Gorny so I can see him being lynchable from scum perspective. I think the scum was trying to be too clever here rather than just killing a more obvious towny like CD or Me, which adds credence to Xa Light or Adlim for the last scum.

tl:dr
It's probably Xa Light or Adlim.

@Xa Light, who's scum and why?
@Adlim, I assume you read I wanted everyone to comment on the Gorny wagon before the hammer, so why did you hammer?

[FancyPants]

scumulate

Also Scumulate claims another victim.

[FancyPants]

@xa light, you're just being lazy now. Please ISO gorny and me and justify me being scum.

In any case explain in detail why I'm scum.

As for me Ive reread the thread (mostly to look at old Gorny interactions) I summarised my thoughts in my first post of day 2. I'll be happy to go into detail if someone wants that.

[FancyPants]

GreyIce is town, she doesn't even realize Draynth is dead, 354.

Also getting emotional unfortunately is not a scum tell, it's actually a pretty human reaction.

While I understand CD wanted an explanation for his (GreyIce's) town reads the way he went about it could be considered badgering, GreyIce has already proven extremely sensitive to such things (like when he threatened to rip my throat out for something pretty innocuous). I think it's entirely possible (even probable) that CD poked GreyIce, GreyIce got emotional, and that the argument is town v town.

The whole narrative of the argument that GreyIce just went completely mental is also wrong in my opinion. If you read page 15 again it reads as you asking GreyIce questions, he attempted to answer them, you weren't satisfied with what he was saying so you continued to question him. He made the "fucking time traveller" comment and from then it went tits up. I do think he was interacting with you in the beginning and basically got annoyed with you badgering him for an answer.



I don't think there is that much scum motivation for not wanting to justify town reads anyway, specifically (which has been touched on) in the case of only one scum remaining.

@CD, you're going to have to explain why GreyIce acting the way he has is specifically scum motivated rather than emotionally motivated before I agree with you. At this stage I'm pretty sure GreyIce is town.

@Xa Light, Yeah you're right your interaction with Gorny is better than I thought upon closer inspection. I still think you might be scum but it's all process of elimination from town reads at this point. Any chance you'll give us a read list?

@Adlim, whether or not Gorny was scum, it was still worth getting people's thoughts on the wagon. If Gorny flips town we can still analyze those thoughts the next day. I kind of agree with GreyIce that you're lying about knowing it was a hammer. Unfortunately lying isn't necessarily a scum tell either, even though it probably should be, I'm still trying to come to terms with what kind of player you are. Scummy or careless.

@Aster, who's scum?

[FancyPants]

Im going to have to back CD up here and say, GreyIce acted way aggressive over someone questioning him, there's a difference between being defensive and completely avoiding the question by using swear words, all this could have been avoided if GreyIce just replied normally, however he tried to add more commotion,

which in my opinion is scum like behaviour due to them Creating a side diversion as to letting out scum tells

Can you please explain the bolded bit more clearly?
Basically why you think GreyIce's behaviour is scum motivated.

[FancyPants]

Firstly I would like to address that how can I not know that I have the hammer if you guys all said that he is at L1 etc. Darynth stated that he is at L1 couple posts right before I hammered in. So no I am not lying.

Second Firstly I think there is utterly no reason for someone to get angry and throw in profanity and purely insult the other player, as it does not get any results, and is not a proper defence. It's just someone screaming and throwing in bad words, so he can have a strong voice, so people can side with him.
Also it seems as though he uses those swear words to create a commotion instead of just answering the questions and co-operating.
Why would I townie try and cause more commotion instead of trying to get to the problem and solving it. <---- My read on CD vs GreyIce.
Cd- Trying to solve the problem and move forward.
GreyIce- Swearing and trying to create more problem.

And FANCYPANTS... as an IC, being experienced, he should have read the posts and see who was killed and who was lynched. How could he not even know Darynth was killed...
1. He is a HORRIBLE IC with the way he is playing using swear words, and not knowing who even got killed. (I don't think IC's are supposed to be like that)
2. He is smart and uses this as a leverage to making people thinking he is town.

Result:GreyIce definitely Scum.

While it might be logical that getting upset and causing a commotion doesn't help town. I don't see how it helps scum Greyice either, if anything it just draws attention to yourself.
People get emotional for all sorts of reasons, and while scum can get emotional, I don't see why getting emotional is inherently townie.

Also I don't see how the person who killed Draynth could forget they were dead, how does scum GreyIce literally forget the name he sends in to the mod. Now I know it's fakable which is why I didn't make a big deal out of it, but if you believe he's being genuine than you can't think he's scum.
You say he is a horrible IC and then in the next sentence say he is smart. Classic scumulate .

[FancyPants]

*Inherently scummy.

[FancyPants]

Ah yes, missed that.
@Xa light, do you think the NK was a good one? I know it's WIFOM but please humour me.

[FancyPants]

The thing is, town reads are often quite hard to justify specifically. It can be as simple as tone or effort.

While it may be logical for a townie to just produce reads acting illogically isn't equal to being scummy. Unfortunately townie's make imperfect plays all the time, especially when it's informed by emotion.

Now I'm not completely convinced that GreyIce is town but I'm even less convinced he's scum. I've played enough mafia to see plenty of people have big emotional blow-outs, I think scum GreyIce just gives you reasons for the "town" reads to appease you rather than blowing up.

It probably doesn't help that I agree with GreyIce about Aster for basically the same reason, tone and thought process basically led me to town read him early. Sometimes it's important to revisit these early reads but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head why I feel that way.
In the end it's your job to convince GreyIce - Aster is scum rather than his job to convince you he isn't.


In short while I don't wholly approve or agree with GreyIce, I'm not seeing serious scum motivation in what he's done.
For me - being emotional and attacking people isn't scummy, scum tend to prefer appeasement and laying low to making a scene. He could be scum, I could very easily be wrong, but I'm not seeing the current case. I think it's possible you want him to be scum, but just because someone rubs you the wrong way doesn't make them scum.

I still think scum are in adlim/xa light, mothergothel would be my outside shot.

[FancyPants]

You're saying that basically scum are more likely to get frustrated quicker, and I'm not sure I disagree, one of the most frustrating things in mafia is to be falsely accused.
In my experience scum tend to either give up/post less when someone is on to them, or expend a lot of effort trying to talk their way out of it.

[FancyPants]

As for what motive scum have to not check who got NK'ed, it is an interesting one, and I would like GreyIce to explain.
It's such a dumb gambit though I'm not sure scum-GreyIce would try it.

Our unconfirmed Newbie Adlim already "tried a similar gambit" earlier in the game with regards to the tags under people's names. Very few people bought that, including GreyIce. So he decides now he's going to do something similar in the hopes that we magically forgive him...

Look it's possible but I think the simplest answer here is that GreyIce was careless and misread who was killed. The best scum answer that I can think of is he got drunk and changed his kill and then forgot about it (something I would probably do).

[FancyPants]

You're saying that basically scum are more likely to get frustrated quicker, and I'm not sure I disagree, one of the most frustrating things in mafia is to be falsely accused.
In my experience scum tend to either give up/post less when someone is on to them, or expend a lot of effort trying to talk their way out of it.

"Not sure I agree

[FancyPants]

In the end it's your job to convince GreyIce - Aster is scum rather than his job to convince you he isn't.

This is a huge misconception though. I voted Aster early in this day in an attempt to pressure him, not because I thought he was scum. I wasn't trying to convice GreyICE of anything, I was just trying to get his explanation behind his reads.

As for what motive scum have to not check who got NK'ed, it is an interesting one, and I would like GreyIce to explain.
It's such a dumb gambit though I'm not sure scum-GreyIce would try it.

Our unconfirmed Newbie Adlim already "tried a similar gambit" earlier in the game with regards to the tags under people's names. Very few people bought that, including GreyIce. So he decides now he's going to do something similar in the hopes that we magically forgive him...

Look it's possible but I think the simplest answer here is that GreyIce was careless and misread who was killed. The best scum answer that I can think of is he got drunk and changed his kill and then forgot about it (something I would probably do).

Here's the thing with this though:

The first thing I would look at during a new day as town is the NK because if I'm going to read back and ISO people, I'd like to know who's dead so I don't waste my time reading them to figure out if they're scum or town. There is no benefit for town to not look at the NK. It's free information that's sitting right there.

It is possible that adilm did a gambit with the tags under people's name things, but it's also just as likely that it was just a newb-play.

GreyICE could easily be scum here, pretending he didn't know who died and saying "Draynth is town" in the hopes that someone like you comes up with "GreyICE didn't even know who died, he can't be scum!". It makes a lot more sense than him being town and just "missing" the NK.

Yeah I know you weren't really big on the Aster case, but my impression of the interaction is that you asked GreyIce for his reason for the read, which he did give you here 356, the posts from 359 are basically just a slight misunderstanding of what each other are saying, once the first vaguely threatening post happens soon after your entire interaction is tainted. After that point it became personal.

As to the bolded part about the "gambit" I absolutely agree that that is the first thing I look at, but carelessness isn't a scum tell. GreyIce is in multiple games, and has been somewhat distracted this whole game.
I think it's entirely possible it was a careless mistake RATHER than a scum-gambit when such gambit's usually don't work and one such gambit has already been viewed with scepticism.

In fact in general when people "town-slip" like this it is viewed with massive amounts of distrust but for me tends to be genuine.

In short I agree it's fakable I don't really see scum-GreyIce thinking such a gambit would work. It also doesn't read fake, it reads as GreyIce genuinely concerned with Draynth scummyness.

...GreyICE could easily be scum here pretending he...

Correction: removed comma.

Also: Calling him scum for refusing to explain his reads and for what-I-see-as faked frustration isn't "falsely accusing" him. He did refuse to explain his reads with his "no thanks" and he did completely dodge my request for explanation for 3 pages and even called me hypocrite for not answering one of his question. I even answered it after that, and he still couldn't explain his 2 other reads.

He was very obviously trying to redirect the pressure onto me since he didn't have a reason behind the other 2 "obvious town" reads.

I'm not saying you're falsely accusing him, but from a town-GreyIce perspective you are, which can lead to frustration. Before that when you were just asking for reads things got super heated, and GreyIce got emotional, I've already stated why I don't think that's scummy.

[FancyPants]

From his POV, I still shouldn't be "falsely accusing" him since he knows he didn't explain his reads to me. He specifically said "no thanks", but this conversation is pointless either way.

Even that, do you think scum say "no thanks" when asked a question?
Correct play - probably not, scum play - I'm doubtful. At that stage he was obviously already done with the interaction.

[FancyPants]

Considering he's solo scum and obviously frustrated - yes. I think I called him out on bullshit reads and he just didn't have an answer.

Counter-question: Do you think town would say "no thanks" when you asked a question?

I wouldn't but I'm unflappable, I wouldn't say it as scum either.

I just think a scum who is fearing for his life, is less likely to say it than then a frustrated townie, it's a comment that is almost designed to get your hackles up.

As I said you

could

be right, I'm not always right (just mostly always ).

What do you think of adlim and xa light btw? I'm still willing to talk about GreyIce but we might as well cover our bases.

[FancyPants]

Ok well at this stage I think I need more input from some of the other players (Aster/MG/Xa Light)

[FancyPants]

It truly takes a higher intellect to make a 4 person scumpool out of a possible 6 players.

Regardless, Aster as usual is dead on here.

Can we all agree to take the high road from now on, please?
If you are both town consider how happy your bickering is making the final scum.

GreyIce I've given you the benefit of the doubt, but if you continue to be antagonistic I'm going to believe cd that you're stirring deliberately. It has crossed my mind that you're experienced enough to do this.

@Aster, here is my view on adlim.
We live in one of two worlds.

In one adlim is quite a sneaky cunning guy, laying false trails, trying gambits, and in general being as sneaky scum possible, playing the fool and playing us all false.
In the other world adlim is just a careless newb townie, not quite sure how the game works or the ground rules for good play. Also, adlim isn't necessarily acting like I'd expect newb scum to react to pressure.

I just can't let go of the second world, I've seen newb townies make these kinds of mistakes before.

Anyway, I'd really like some more input from Xa Light and Mothergothel. My town read on mothergothel is eroding.

[FancyPants]

once again you guys are stating that im a careless person etc. But please state a mistake made?

Well the biggest careless thing you did was hammer before Gorny had a chance to claim and people had a chance to comment on the wagon. You got away with it because Gorny was scum but it was still a sub-optimal move.

Other than that general behaviour like being suspicious of people who post too much (Aster and I in the early game) accusing GreyIce of being a PR because he got emotional and that kind of thing.

Maybe not care less but certainly unorthodox.

[FancyPants]

Sorry Guys I was out the whole day. I would like to say that I I too have been convinced after Gorny Has been brought into the light, Or shall I say dark.
But anyways, He seems very wishy washy with his reads, where he says one thing and then says the opposite for the same person, which shows that he doesn’t really have any reads on the players, and is just making up some BS as he goes and getting mixed up in his own mind.
UNVOTE: GreyIce
VOTE: Gorny
FancyPants please give your views on the recent Gorny? You have been 're-reading' since yesterday.
My top two suspects at the moment are Gorny, And GreyIce

The reason we say you are lying about knowing about hammering is this ^.

At this stage I'd asked everyone to comment on the Gorny wagon.
Then you hammer.
While hammering you ask me a question - how I feel about Gorny and ask for my reread analysis.

How can these two things logically go together if you knew you were hammering. I can't answer your question if you are ending the day, this doesn't make it seem like you knew you were hammering.

The next day you double down and say you did intend to hammer, in which case why bother asking me a question?

@Adlim, could you please speculate on the night kill. Meaning do you think killing Draynth was a good move?

[FancyPants]

And yes I know I'm WIFOMing with this NK talk but I am going somewhere with this so just leave it kthxbye.

[FancyPants]

I asked you for your reads because Even though I knew I had the Hammer. I thought Gorny would have a "Staage of defense, where he gets some time to explain why he is not scum". And then a revote would occur and then someone would be lynched. If it is someone different, They also get a stage of defense and repeat. I thought this because that's how it is in real mafia, I knew I had the Hammer, But I thought Gorny would go into a stage of defense.

OK well here is the fundamental misunderstanding.

On this forum it's explicit that hammer means not only a vote majority - but also that the day ends immediately.

[FancyPants]

So when we asked if you knew you hammered - you saying "Yes I did." tell us that you intentionally cut the day short. Where as for you it just meant running Gorny up to a majority.

I'm kind of feeling the adlim lynch more, but I'd like some input from XL and Mothergothel.

[FancyPants]

yea i thought he would go into a stage of defence and then get voted out depending on the circumstance.
So based on that you believe I am scum?
Clever of you to not, respond to anything else I said...

If you want to ask me something go ahead.

I'm not convinced of anything yet, I'm still trying to figure out today. I don't think you intentionally cut the day short because that doesn't make any sense, but I think you might be scum independent of that; mostly because of the fact that you've shown quite a lot of interest in almost every single wagon that hasn't been your own, and I don't think much of your reasoning for your votes have been good.

I can see you being scum or newb town, for now, I'd like to explore a world where neither adlim or GreyIce are scum for a bit, but we need the missing players for that.

[FancyPants]

Also what I think about the nk isn't relevant at all. It's just a bunch of guessing and second guessing, so pretend I humored you and explain your line of thought please.

Please humour me anyway, NK information is bad information, but it isn't unusable. I've seen games where NK information has helped with the lynching of scum.

@Adlim, I meant the wagons who have been on in the past, not your current wagon (although also your current wagon).
Adlim you've already said yourself that GreyIce is either a bad IC or scum (in your eyes) why is it more obvious to you that she is scum?

[FancyPants]

Adlim is on L-3 btw.

No hammer please.

[FancyPants]

GreyIce, I've considered such things as well since we won my last Newbie with a mass claim but what if Gorny submitted the kill?
Then the jailkeeper and the tracker tell us nothing.

[FancyPants]

Fine, I'll humor as much to say I think the draynth kill was good for town in that he wasn't the most vocal town. It also makes me suspect a newer player because he was an SE, but I'm not giving that a lot of weight.

Pretty much my thoughts.

I generally find scum will defend their validity of their kills even when, people say it's bad.

Which is why adlim's response about why the NK was a good one was weird.

Perhaps just getting rid of adlim is the move here. Mothergothel thoughts?

[FancyPants]

And yes, I realise that I'm sitting on the fence with the post above, but considering that I don't see the lynch going on anybody else today, I figured I'd give it a re-read and give back my input. It is what it is.

@FancyPants; did your scumread on XL change at all with his recent posts?

XL makes sense more from a process of elimination point of view.

That said he talks sense. Sadly talking sense doesn't make you town but it certainly makes it hard to build a case on someone, if adlim flips town my biggest suspects would be xl and mothergothel, then probably greyice and aster who are close, I haven't given much thought to aster scum, but they have gotten quieter as the game has progressed which I find pretty suspicious in a game when town are winning quite handily.

[FancyPants]

I mean as long as we don't lynch a PR and the scum doesn't hit our investigative PR we probably mathematically win anyway with a mass claim (GreyIce is right in that most of our investigative roles have been upgraded to cops).

[FancyPants]

We definitely can't hammer.
We need MG to post and more importantly adlim to claim, we significantly affect our win rate if we lynch a PR.

[FancyPants]

Easy game, wp all will talk more after the flip.

[FancyPants]

Fine, I'll humor as much to say I think the draynth kill was good for town in that he wasn't the most vocal town. It also makes me suspect a newer player because he was an SE, but I'm not giving that a lot of weight.

Pretty much my thoughts.

I generally find scum will defend their validity of their kills even when, people say it's bad.

Which is why adlim's response about why the NK was a good one was weird.

Perhaps just getting rid of adlim is the move here. Mothergothel thoughts?

this makes no sense bro?
You ask me if Darynth was a good kill? I am going to put my self in the shoes of scum and answer that question, as if I killed Darynth. It seems like you are just trying to put the blame on me

You "put youtself" into scum shoes and justified the kill as a good one, when it's clearly a bad kill.
As I said I feel scum will tend to justify their own NK as a good one.

Anyway happy to wait for the flip, It's still possible adlim is fake-claiming like a idiot .

[FancyPants]

I'd like to hope that's not the case.

I'm sure it isn't but it's easy to wait for the flip.

[FancyPants]

You were positive enough about it. My points still stand.
Anyway you're lynched just give up.

[FancyPants]

Thanks Xalxe you did an outstanding job moderating!

Perfect game y'all. I'll comment more after work.

[FancyPants]

Yeah WP CD you did a good job of steering the town in the right direction. I was suspicious of Gorny myself but didn't really force my case enough to have convinced anybody.

GreyIce - you are a good player and your IC posts were really good, I'm not sure getting so emotional was necessary but I suppose it happens to us all from time to time. I hope your home life is OK.

MotherGothel - I thought you were pretty sensible and level headed and made some good contributions. Try and contribute a little more in future.

Adlim - In general gambits and sneaky behaviour like the alignment under the name thing, and killing Draynth always backfire. You might have been able to get Draynth lynched if you hadn't killed him. It's far better to just kill somebody universally town read and active like cd/aster/myself. Anyway good luck in future games, I hope you stick around.

Aster - You have all the attributes of a great player, well played but be careful of that old bastard confirmation bias, it's important to be willing to be wrong.

Gorny - I think you played well but just not carefully enough, it's important to keep your story straight and reads consistent at all times, smart townies will always notice when your "mind" changes and will want to know why. I also think that while it's tempting to remain silent when people are braying for your blood, it almost never saves you. Better to kick and scream and get mad than give up too easily.

Draynth - You seemed like a nice bloke, was keen to play more with you (and ready to defend you on day 2) but alas.

Xa Light - Mellow and logical, a great combination, I hope you play more in the future.


Anyway WP all, it was a bit of a team effort in the end, some of the prickly nature of the game sucked but it happens. I think it's important to stay objective and realize both townies and scum can behave badly. Try to leave emotions out of your analysis.

[FancyPants]

@FP, I did not give mad or give up, I wasn't able to be online at the time.

Well played town.

Will comment more after work

I only meant the post where you said that if you talked any more you would get lynched. It felt defeatist.

[FancyPants]

I would like to change my vote
UNVOTE: MotherGothel28
VOTE: GreyIce
GreyIce's profanity and irrational behaviour must tell me that he is some power role. For if it was something helping the town, I feel like he would have spoken differently. But I feel like he is Mafia, for a townie would have no reason to add swearing and be hostile.

Hmmmm.

Usually I find this kind of thing to be a pretty big scum tell, I don't feel like townies are too concerned with who may or may not be a power role, but scum are constantly looking out for it.

CD makes a few good points about adlim as well.

As a general side note, the most terrifying thing for scum is a unified town, let's all try to be less toxic and try and see each others points of view more (myself included).
As townies it can be hard since we don't know who to trust but try to remember that 75% of the player base is on your team.

InterestING to note and I should I trusted this instinct, people who look like they are PR hunting (especially newbs) are trouble.