Open 698: Stack the Deck (GAME OVER)

[Realeo]

FIRST

[Realeo]

VOTE: CommKnight
This guy was one of the people who sank me hard last time we played.

Are you going to crumb for your traitor?

[Realeo]

Hi guys.

Bunch of new faces! Let's make this a fun game ya?
VOTE: Realeo

Would you be my ThinkBig? I want to push someone so hard in this setup.

---

Does anyone see this post below as an AI post? There is a gut instinct that this is a bleeding town post, but I can't tell if I'm stretching it.

If I ever do roll scum in a game with you I'll have to make sure to pay you back for Micro 725.

Hehe, good luck with that You're going need a long con plan to get me back for that one. Also the last run of this set-up I actually called out the entire scum team rather early but other townies either did something that caught my eye more or I second guessed myself in the reads. So this time around, when I start pegging people, they're going to be ran up the damn wall fully this time. No backing off hard reads this run.

Also this time around if I were mafia, I could just nightkill people rather than pull a "Hey, we got them cornered guys, so they had to put 3 townies up on the block" Hehehe, that was a risky move on my part, but so worth it.

Anyway, I gotta prepare for class. This time around I won't be as talkative as before (maybe) because of classes ongoing. But I feel bad for scum this game, I notice a lot of new faces to this duo. If Alchemist is town this game, you fucked mafia, you completely fucked.

I leave you to figure out why to see if you see what I see.

[Realeo]

Well, bleeding is too strong of a word. Town lean maybe.

[Realeo]

Given that only grapes townread CK, I maybe set my standard too low.

[Realeo]

Given that only grapes townread CK, I maybe set my standard too low.

What compelled you to say this?

I want to retract my town lean.

[Realeo]

Fair enough. But also to be fair, half your reads at that point had no reasoning to them at all which is going to make them easy to disregard.

Uh... Aren't you curious why he have that reads? In another word, why is your instinct is to vote rather to quiz him?

[Realeo]

A poke would be a question.
You know that thing town do when they don't understand a thing.

I assume my CK townread question does not qualify as a poke?

[Realeo]

I asked that question as a sanity checking and to gauge people's tolerance.

Sanity checking is important because sometimes you off your mark and see something and too confident for it, so you need to actively benchmark your parameter once in a while.

Gauge people's tolerance is simply to test people consistency's in future.

You have been consistent with your tolerance with voting me and townleaning CK so I don't really think it's scummy.

The only thing that triggered me was your "If the game ends here" readlist, which I think triggeres Alchemist, but I'm not sure why his action is "Vote this scum bag" instead of "There are lot of unexplained variables. Would you mind to elaborate?" so you're kinda in the waiting list because he have higher priority.

[Realeo]

A.W.K.W.A.R.D.

grapes, can I have your occupation please?

Regarding the situation, I'm not sure what exactly I can do, or how far I can go with my power as the moderator.

First step is to report to list mod. That's how I handled it in the past.

[Realeo]

You obviously don't understand why I'm voting him. And I'm telling him if you want the reads to be taken seriously, then back them up. That's especially true when the game just started.

Ah. I assumed that "half of your reasoning makes no senses" is part of the deal.

[Realeo]

Luca/IceGuy/Commknight/UnaBombaH/Assemblerotws

Realeo/Alchemist/Duckworth/Chip Buddy/ironstove

SmoothBlue/GameNburger/Riddleton

How do you create this player list?

I would buy that you're so into scumhunting that you don't realize there are 14 players (you probably forgot to count yourself), but the divisions, how?

[Realeo]

Oh wait, is grapes' readlist a TOWN/NULL/SCUM read list or "there are 3 groups, 1 scum on each group."

[Realeo]

I also really don't like the way how you vote everybody who attacks you.

I can't tell if this is just a human-error or an scum misrepping given the fact the next thing is a vote.

[Realeo]

Were you being serious here? I took this as RVS. I mean, crumbing mafia by using capitals is paleo. I'm pretty sure nobody does that now.

Assembrelowts did it in Open 696 and CommKnight pwned him real hard.

Previously on Open 696...

For those not seeing it...

S

ince you're taking this route, let me remind you of something.

C

hoosing to lynch someone for simply making what you perceive to be an anti-town move is just as anti-town as the L-1 stunt.

U

nless you don't believe your own logic.

M

aybe you're just scum trying to get a lynch.

B

ut if he's town, lynching him creates the same potential for 4v6 D2 MYLO as his stunt, and I've seen nothing actually scummy from him.
VOTE: CommKnight
While you stew on this, I'm left to wonder what Crush/his replacement are going to do.

You failed utterly dude.

[Realeo]

Iceguy probtown.

You postulated that grapes is town yet Iceguy's substantive material is only about not liking grapes.

Clearly, your townprob at Iceguy is more than "Town thinks alike". Elaborate please.

[Realeo]

Ney, the misrepping is "everybody who attacks you". I don't attack him yet he still vote him.

But sure. I can give you pass for that.

[Realeo]

You said you want to retract your town lean, that implies you think he's scum now.

Uh, no? That implies I null him?

[Realeo]

Okay. Can we agree that two times after somebody said he's something other than town, he responded with a vote on that person?

That is factually correct.

[Realeo]

I'm sorry but do you have an example of you doing this before as town? You're using terms I've never heard of like "sanity check" so this is either a thing you've actively done before or you're pulling an excuse out your bum.

Ongoing game so can't really talk about it, but there is only 1 ongoing game beside this game so you would easily know which one is I am talking about. Feel free to dive.

But what we're talking about is again why your read on commknight itself changed.

I have answered this.

why do your concerns with alchemist have anything to do with me outside the fact that your concerns are centered on his concerns of me?

Pardon? I think I make the division clear between my concern against you and against Alchemist?








I'm gonna toss you another question because your last two lines are also interesting to me; why do your concerns with alchemist have anything to do with me outside the fact that your concerns are centered on his concerns of me?[/quote]

[Realeo]

It really depends. But it's normally
Town/Null/Scum

Is that a qualitative read list or a relative read list?

[Realeo]

Hello, I rolled town this game.

Do you feel the need for love?

[Realeo]

@CommKnight

Are you genuinely indifferent with every shit that happens? The last time you posted was page 5 and in that post it seems you're still in RVS mood?

[Realeo]

I agree that IceGuy is sketchy, but I am considering the chance if both grapes and IceGuy are cases of "awkwardly done transparency under good faith"

[Realeo]

Luca Blight

I noticed that you attacked IceGuy for grapes but never talked about grapes. What's your position on grapes?

[Realeo]

Realeo what are you current reads?

I'm starting to worry that I am townreading people too quickly and not having enough scumread.

I am comfy with Alchemist and grapes.

I am not comfy with ChipButty, IceGuy, and Luca, but it's not exactly "I'm not comfortable with you so you're my scumread" but more to "I'm not comfortable with you so you are under my radar."

[Realeo]

It's a tiny bit weird that Realeo retracted a town lean just because nobody else agreed with him in 48, but I don't know if it's allignment indicative? Maybe a little scummy because I don't see why he would do that *shrug* @Realeo

Are you expecting me to respond? I don't see questions?

[Realeo]

It's a tiny bit weird that Realeo retracted a town lean just because nobody else agreed with him in 48, but I don't know if it's allignment indicative? Maybe a little scummy because I don't see why he would do that *shrug* @Realeo

Are you expecting me to respond? I don't see questions?

Yeah, maybe just explain what's goin' through your brain there if you don't mind

Do you agree that townlean and scumlean is a spectrum?

Imagine that 0 is confscum and 1 is conftown and 0.5 is null.

Now, in an ideal world, we would be able to express our read in a numeric system to express ourself in a great detail, right?

The issue is,we can't. This numeric system is too subjective. What is a 0.5, what is a 0.3?

So we process and express our read in a form of categorical bins. "Scum", "Scum lean", "Null scum", "Null town", "Town lean", "Town" and so on. Some people split this bins in different way.

Now obviously, this bins are still subjective. "How towny is the difference of null town and town lean?" but at least it's more descriptive than 0.5. This binning system can be useful, but when the difference is not cut through, it's kinda confusing where do you put your read on which bin.

When it comes to CK, I don't know which bin should I put my read at.

My philosophy of mafia is mafia is not just a game of pressing your agenda. Mafia is a game of feedback. You're not a genius. You should push your message aggressively, but you should listen to what people say. So I look for opinion.

If the majority says "It's towny", then I would put it in a better bin. If the majority says no, then I put it in a worse bin. Why? Well, wisdom of the crowd. Wisdom of the crowd gives you a good approximate. If the crowd is split like 60/40, you can't really take the crowd's opinion due to the polarization. If the crowd is split like 90/10 and you don't really have a counter argument to sway the crowd, then it's a good advice to take.[*]

Hence, "sanity checking"



[*] Obviously, you should only do this when the number of town outweighs scum. When you're in LYLO/MYLO, you are prety much on your own.

[Realeo]

Don't worry. I don't expect everybody to be clever.

[Realeo]

Realeo what are you current reads?

I'm starting to worry that I am townreading people too quickly and not having enough scumread.

I am comfy with Alchemist and grapes.

I am not comfy with ChipButty, IceGuy, and Luca, but it's not exactly "I'm not comfortable with you so you're my scumread" but more to "I'm not comfortable with you so you are under my radar."

Why are you 'comfy' with Alch, and why aren't you 'comfy' with ChipButty and I?

And is that to say that you townread Grapes and Alch?

I think I have dropped reasons why I am comfy with grapes. With Alchemist, I think I just like his approach. He seems sincere. Can scum fake it? Obviously, but I can't really figure out a reason. I noticed that there is a potential inconsistency with his position against grapes and IceGuy (both is kinda the same in some sort of way, but he only fos grapes), but I think I find his threshold (subject to change?) and given he haven't really cross the threshold, he is simply being himself instead of scum!Alchemist saving scum!Grapes' arse.


IceGuy -- ChipButty, I find your case is a little bit over reachy. I explained why on IceGuy and Mulch on you , but the reason I gave them a pass is simply the condition is multi intepretable and it's simply they happen to pick the less likely intepretation. It could be scum trying to misrep, or it could be simply human being has a different way of brain works. I don't really find reasons for the former, so you're simply under my radar.

ChipButty. I think he is lamist? Multi post aside--Page 4 doesn't impress me and kinda shouting coasting scum.

Take example of this:

Were you being serious here? I took this as RVS. I mean, crumbing mafia by using capitals is paleo. I'm pretty sure nobody does that now.

Assembrelowts did it in Open 696 and CommKnight pwned him real hard.

He went to post 82

Previously on Open 696...

For those not seeing it...

S

ince you're taking this route, let me remind you of something.

C

hoosing to lynch someone for simply making what you perceive to be an anti-town move is just as anti-town as the L-1 stunt.

U

nless you don't believe your own logic.

M

aybe you're just scum trying to get a lynch.

B

ut if he's town, lynching him creates the same potential for 4v6 D2 MYLO as his stunt, and I've seen nothing actually scummy from him.
VOTE: CommKnight
While you stew on this, I'm left to wonder what Crush/his replacement are going to do.

You failed utterly dude.

LOL I stand corrected. I guess he's learned his lesson though.

Then go up Post 83

Iceguy probtown.

You postulated that grapes is town yet Iceguy's substantive material is only about not liking grapes.

Clearly, your townprob at Iceguy is more than "Town thinks alike". Elaborate please.

It's mostly gut at the moment.

But then 81.

I also really don't like the way how you vote everybody who attacks you.

I can't tell if this is just a human-error or an scum misrepping given the fact the next thing is a vote.

This.

And it's a little bit off he go 82 -> 83 -> 81. I considered that he is simply re-reading post and only saw 81 is second skim, but his posts of (83) and (81) are 56 seconds aside so it doesn't really shout "Town find a good post in second read" but "Town noted that he has two posts to responded, but decided one post is more important to respond" which brings the question "Isn't 81 is more important than 83 so you should respond it first?"


For question 2, Townread? Townlean, maybe.

[Realeo]

PEDIT: Iceguy-Luca

[Realeo]

You ain't reading.

[Realeo]

Try again. That text was not talking about you having a read on Luca.

[Realeo]

Anyone have any thoughts on IceGuy's reaction to my vote:

I really don't like Iceguy's start, his vote for Grapes or his subsequent unvote.

So basically, you've decided that you want to start a wagon on me, and then tried to find reasons for it.

He quotes a tiny segment of my post and replies with a generic statement that could used in reply to any vote ever, before melting away into the background again.

I'm waiting for his vote to see if he actually meant it. Given how he read my post, I can no longer predict the sentiment of his text.

[Realeo]

No. I am saying Luca's case on Iceguy is reachy but I gave him a pass for reasons in that post.

[Realeo]

Don't worry. I don't expect everybody to be clever.

Every time I've seen someone wallpost on 'philosophy of mafia', they've been scum.

Every time I hear stupid arguments to say someone is scum, the one making the argument has been scum.

The self-sarcasm is high.

At least the content below it is passable.

[Realeo]

Please bear with me as I am going to intentionally AtE and make excuses for my scummy thing.

I am going to have a hectic life for the next 72 hours. Please bear with me as my below standard reading comprehension will go even low.

[Realeo]

Does me posting mafia philosophy counts?

[Realeo]

*Deos me posting those mafia philosophy link counts?

[Realeo]

although it would be better if CK did it, to prove he wasn't just blowing hot air.

That is my concern.

Quick question, when someone makes an argument, what is you "expected amount of example to back up those argument."

Because if CK can't back up and your conclusion is "CK is stupid," I would be able to understand where you are coming from.

However, if CK can't back up and your conclusion "Maybe CK is scum buddy," which is what you're hinting at, I find that a little bit too defensive.

Like, why "blowing hot air"? why not "town without brain?"

[Realeo]

I'm trying to understand that when someone confronts you, how do you tell the difference that the confronting player is scum or town.

[Realeo]

@ChipButty

Finally, So I checked your mafia-wide activity and looked for keyword such as "theory", "iioa", "philosophy" and I can't find any relevant posts. Since you claim to see mafia posting mafia theory doing it all the time, would you back those up? Clearly, this is the first time you vote someone for "overtheorising"

[Realeo]

His recent play has gotten him in my first TR.

You are referring to this one?

His recent play has gotten him in my first TR.

[Realeo]

EBWOP

But CK is claiming he has seen you do this.

You are referring to this one?

His recent play has gotten him in my first TR.

[Realeo]

It's just that you used "blowing hot air" so it's kinda negative connotation so my mind went "Woah. A scumread just for that?"

Can I get confirmation for 213, please?

[Realeo]

So I think this one?

I know crazy that Realeo actually takes the time to explain out his train of thought and his own philosophy.

So you are saying that he can say that "Realeo actually takes the time" because he has seen me takes my time?

I don't think that read that way, but to satisfy you, I'm pretty sure I haven't play with CommKnight before unless he played with some kind of hydra or alt.

[Realeo]

Here's where i am with this : your philosophy wallpost looks like a kind of iioa to me, and if i can't see where you've done similar as town, or something else poos up, it's gonna continue to look that way.

Quote time then.

I can do more than "mafia philosophy wall"--I can do "mafia philosophy banter"

Micro 729

Because I don't think any analysis made based on RVS time holds any merit.

The reason why I don't like myko's analysis @ Chamber because it was assuming Chamber would act a certain way during RVS which is very assumptive. I mean, if myko is doing such analysis mid-game, I agree. Such action analysis based on Chamber's

first post

? Waaaaay too early.

It's also the reason why I don't felt bothered about Gorkinton's townread at Edo, for instance. For all I know, it can be RVS joke.

RVS is simply too assumptive to analyse at.

Me don't feel need to make something out of nothing.

I don't think you understand.

Every game, I try to make something happen. Please check my wiki.

You don't need to concerned about my capability about independently making analysis

, BTD can vouch for that. He has good sample of me. You only need to be concerned about the quality of my conclusion.

For this game, however, I

genuinely

don't think anything that another players pointed out is noteworthy and I have lost my momentum to make anything note worthy.

People went "Myeah. Edo is weird." Well. So what? Why is it scummy? Why it's not play style?

People went "Chamber is too reactive." Well. So what? Why is it scummy? Why it's not play style?

I felt playing "find the player who is psychopath IRL" instead of playing mafia.

Ok. So what's wrong with everybody?

I don't understand why any of your action that you make fuss off is necessarily deceptive. Yes, Gork's townread is out of place, but is there any deception involved? What's wrong with Gork's townread??

For this game, however, I genuinely don't think anything that another players pointed out is noteworthy and I have lost my momentum to make anything note worthy.

do you think there is value in trying to poke people or exaggerate your feelings on something to try to get a further reaction?
are you someone who usually gets bothered for not being meaningfully involved in the earlygame?
because you trying to be a passive player who analyzes things strikes me as something that people would typically find scummy.

1. Not really. You would mistaken a genuine human reaction for something. People can be genuinely pissed off IRL, you know.
2. Usually I would do some "intentionally scummy thing" to get out of RVS, but I lost my opportunity.

@Chamber: How do your scumread develops from "the first post" into active lurking accusation. It feels jumpy so something must happen in the between with me?

[Realeo]

I read it as 'This is something Realio does', so of course my response is 'Show me'.

I have learned to accommodate semantic disagreement, so sure.

[Realeo]

I personally find CK's attack good--

given the context

but the only thing that a little bit bothers me is...

But here's something else, my read on you has been in the red for a while now.

[1]

But this last bit and even Realeo, one of my TL's that have hopped into a TR, has noticed. You've been skipping over stuff. Important stuff.

[2]

That is something that scum do every single game.

1. This last bit that CK nmentioned is a very detail-oriented analysis. If I make a generic statement and CK "I think the same!", I see it possible, but if I make a very detail-oriented analysis and CK "I think the same!" My mind went "really? Great minds think alike but did you go THAT far? Are both of us secretly chess grandmaster?" The thing is, CK is a detailed-oriented person (there is a reason why he caught assembrelowts' crumbing) so it's actually possible.

2. It's a little bit weird that you accuse CB for "lazy reasoning" when this assertion is kinda lazy. I don't think it's necessarily scummy, but just like my request for CB, I wish CommKnight explained why in CB's case, it's scum instead of dumb.

[Realeo]

Oh you skeptics.

This is the Mod PT for Micro 729

roles randomised using random.org

Sane Cop: Quilford

Bellaphant

Insane Cop: Tenshii
Mafia Goon: mykonian
Mafia Goon: Edosurist
Vanilla Townie: Gorkington
Vanilla Townie: Mars Argo

Realeo

Vanilla Townie: Papa Zito
Vanilla Townie: BTD6_Maker
Vanilla Townie: chamber

Role PM's Sent

Mafia PT

Dead Threads

Opening Post

Rules Post

Confirmation Post

Opening Votecount

[Realeo]

*Takes a deep breath*

You ain't reading.

HINT: It maybe behind a strike. Who knows?

[Realeo]

Realeo

YOU ACTUALLY SPELLED MY USERNAME CORRECTLY!

[Realeo]

What's up peeps, someone want to give me a tl;dr over the last 10 pages so I don't have to read through? I'd really appreciate it.

A collection of instances and incidents that demontrates why English is hard.

Seriously.

[Realeo]

I don't formulate my own reads, I'm a dog. I listen to people.

But a dog supposed to bite bad people. How do you know whether you're going to listen or bite the person giving you the advice?

[Realeo]

Fuck, I didn't pay attention that this is 12 days deadline not 14 days deadline.

VOTE: CB

[Realeo]

Do you have any actual thoughts on the game currently?

I looked back through your posts and it's all jokes and pointless posts.

You must have some reads by now, even if they're weak.

This part is the most important one: I'm not one to normally shitpost through the game.
I've been trying a new approach to day 1.

The thing is: I suck at early game reading because I don't "understand" tone.
I mainly read interactions, and this game had very few good ones in the first 5 pages or so.
I already admitted as much: they all felt very weird and instead of AI reads, I felt like some of it almost gave better indications on IQs..

In a game like this that has either a slower start, or interactions I can't read well enough to react, I now tried to pull the focus on my own actions.
Anyone who has been noting my behavior in a negative manner so far has been gaining some minor towncred from me.

The thing about scum is that they want players who aren't "gamesolve-y" to make it to the lategame, and therefore don't always latch onto people who post, but only "keep appearances".
And that is what I have been trying to create: fluff.

Alchemist

is my first townread simply because they took the step to call me out on it.
On the other hand, I DO have one scumlean based on how they put their vote on me.

IceGuy

voted after Alchemist had "bit the bullet" in making a base for a wagon, and instead of following his reasonable argument, IceGuy only said he is willing to vote all lurkers and just happened to choose me from amongst them.
And therefore I shall VOTE: IceGuy.

Slight townlean on

Luca Blight

for calling IceGuy out before I got to it. (and also the Suikoden thing, that actually affects my gameplay..)

So I, representing ChipButty, am going to vote you.

Chip Butty votes UnaBombah

Overtheorising.

[Realeo]

On a serious note, I am having a hard time. I find the degree of scumminess of ChipButty is bolder than IceGuy, but I find IceGuy less likely to be town.

Using mathematical notation, on a spectrum of 0 to 1 for 0 is town, if the probability function of rolling town of both player is Gaussian distribution, median ChipButty < median IceGuy but standard deviation ChipButty > standard deviation Ice Guy.

[Realeo]

[Realeo]

Do you know that mafiascum is the only forum where my joke delivery rate is literally 0%?

[Realeo]

I have to admit that I am reddit/4chan-virgin.

Either for the better or the worse.

[Realeo]

@ChipButty

Would you be my Vedith?

@ChipButty

What you think of IceGuy?

[Realeo]

I don't know what a Vedith is, and I'm not feeling adventurous, so no.

Me and Vedith went into a huge fight at one moment.

Some days after the fight, when Vedith goes to a hiatus, I feel sad because I missed his IDGAF charisma. When he returned back and replaced to a game with me, I can't stand him, but I enjoy playing with him and we worked together in that game--but for God sake he rolled scum--I was trolled--but it was nice. I felt happy when I mod him.

But now he site flaked again.

And I missed him.

Now that we think it, we kinda the same.

We went into the big fight in THAT game.

We kinda hate each other--it should be obvious--but we kinda respected each other? Somehow we do not went into eternal descent.

It's complicated and I don't remember I have this feeling with my girlfriend.

[Realeo]

In case you are wondering, I am 10% serious and 90% trying to make you feel creepy.

[Realeo]

Do you always get your #1 scumread lynched? Don't you see the point in compromising?

Isn't it too early to compromise? I personally would only compromise during deadline or people are starting to tunnel.

[Realeo]

@IceGuy?

Can I have a read list for non-lurkers, please?

[Realeo]

Town: Chip Butty/Alchemist/Realeo
Leaning town: Luca/CK/grapes
Neutral: Mulch/GNB
Leaning scum: ironstove/Duckworth

Scum: Assemble

/UnaBombaH

Wait. What?

Why you never talk about this? Explain your scumread please. I personally forgot about assemble so can use some insight.

[Realeo]

On a serious note, I am having a hard time. I find the degree of scumminess of ChipButty is bolder than IceGuy, but I find IceGuy less likely to be town.

Using mathematical notation, on a spectrum of 0 to 1 for 0 is town, if the probability function of rolling town of both player is Gaussian distribution, median ChipButty < median IceGuy but standard deviation ChipButty > standard deviation Ice Guy.

I have to admit that I am

reddit/4chan-

a virgin.

Either for the better or the worse.

DAAAAMN. Just DAAAAAMN.

I have to admit. It was good...and true.

[Realeo]

I'm in no way defending the lurkers - I am questioning the motivation behind your current stance, that a lynch of any lurker will do. It's such an easy path of no resistance to go down, and it doesn't sit right with me. There would be no issue if you had at least attempted to interact with the lurkers and draw reads out of them, but to just brand them all 'useless' and say any of them can be lynched is at best anti-town, and at worst a very scummy thing to do.

I like this.
And I sort of like you.

I endorse both product. Both of you get my virtual cookie.

[Realeo]

Why you feel shame for townreading me?

[Realeo]

Here is a cute cat to make you feel happy

[Realeo]

I'm more surprised with his Null/Lean Scum/Scum divisions.

I don't see anything manipulation indicative for putting his name on top.

[Realeo]

Apparently IceGuy's last game was two years ago.

@IceGuy

Do you play in other mafia sites interim?

[Realeo]

@LucaBlight

Would you stop attacking him for a moment, please? I'm trying to figure out where his play style is coming from.

[Realeo]

Can I invite non-lifer to meta dive him, please? I notice that his game play in the past is awkward at best (but not exactly awkward for his time) and perhaps non-compatible for a '17 play and I concluded that maybe we need a different way to sort him.

Plus, a striking majority of his game play is Micro and the dynamic that he put here kinda makes here if he come from a Micro game.

[Realeo]

@Luca Blight

Can I invite you to meta dive Luca Blight? Some of his play is simply fascinating.

[Realeo]

I don't want to sound rude and say IceGuy is old and his play is archaic...but he is old and his play is archaic.

[Realeo]

Like, he is the type of guy who just analyze, analyze, rarely ask (There is a game where he virtually ask zero "alignment sorting" questions. He's like an introvert who suddenly come to a conclusion...so naturally he (pretty much) get lynched all the time as both alignment.

So I think attacking him for his "sorting method" would not be useful, but asking why he townread Chip Butty is a good question to ask.

[Realeo]

I don't know if this is too much to ask for IceGuy, but since IceGuy is not the type of guy who is thinking out loud,

I would like to request Iceguy to make CommKnight's style of read list + kinda detailed explanation.

Your assembrelowts explanation is at the right ball park.

If IceGuy is town and unable to play proactively, we kinda have to proactively force him to be active.

[Realeo]

Define "constructive"

[Realeo]

Define "constructive"

I mean, you only make two remarks about ChipButty and both of them are negative. Surely, it's not constructive.

[Realeo]

I mean, you only make two remarks about ChipButty and both of them are negative. Surely, it's not constructive.

As stated many times: Doing something wrong != being scum.

No, I agree with you. Doing something wrong != being scum.

The issue is that I am not sure what is your definition of constructive

[Realeo]

VOTE: Assembrelowts

[Realeo]

GRAMMAR DISASTER INCOMING!

I think any player who still make no output even after reading up to 305 is a sign of bad faith.

I mean, sure, he could be having IRL issue, but I would like to assume he's mature enough that he would declare busyness when he is, so when he doesn't signal, I feel wronged.

[Realeo]

The vibe i get from Realio is he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room, but that isn't AI.

Really? I must be such a charismatic player.

[Realeo]

I was refering to Alchemist's question

[Realeo]

So you just typed a paragraph to say you think he is lurking?

I don't think it's just lurking

per se

because if it's the case, I would be IceGuy.

It's just something like this...

@CommKnight

Are you genuinely indifferent with every shit that happens? The last time you posted was page 5 and in that post it seems you're still in RVS mood?

...but the severity of it becomes worse as time progress.

[Realeo]

No sorry. It's a site i haven't played at in over a year. I really don't have the time to go digging rhere. Lynch me for it if you want.

Can I have the site name and the user name please. The no lifer can do the meta digging if you don't want.

[Realeo]

He haven't being online on any games so site flake?

[Realeo]

@Realeo

How do you feel about Unabombah?

I'd be willing to move over to Assemble with Iceguy, but still prefer the unabombah vote and if you're willing to move over here I'd rather do that. Either way I think having all of us on the same wagon will make it a lot stronger.

Conflicted, cases against unabombah cases pretty much like Assembler, plus the "intentional fluffy" thing.

Need more input from both player, but for this case perhaps I should not coach them.

[Realeo]

Realeo, what are your thoughts on IceGuy's read-change of me that I highlighted above?

Do you believe it's a genuine/credible reason to justify a change from town-lean to scum-lean?

I have seen it done by both alignment, frankly.

I just wish that you choose other IceGuy's read beside ChipButty. At this point, it maybe done no justice. Personally, I'm interested at his DuckWorth's read but waiting for you to end the assault before I quiz him.

[Realeo]

You've seen what done by both alignments?

The town-lean to scum-lean for non-responsiveness thingy.

[Realeo]

@IceGuy

Help me a little bit with your DuckWorth. You said that DuckWorth vote is OMGUSy and therefore scummy...

I tr Commtown, his reads list is solid and I agree with it for the most part.

I also tr Realeo based on his posts in Page 8/9 about mafia analysis and his general tone when stating his philosophy on the game.

Chip's vote in 171 is strange and has little basis to it, especially so as we are out of RVS now. Many of his votes are reactionary and trigger-happy at mild issues and therefore they give me a scumvibe.

I still dislike the amount of reads that grapes good so early in the game.

VOTE: ChipButty

But chronologically speaking, isn't the one who omgus is Chip Butty?

Duckworth is clearly just parrotting opinions already expressed by others on CK, Realeo, me, and grapes. In other words, he is trying to look like he is scumhunting without doing any real scumhunting. There was absolutely no original thought there whatsoever.

VOTE: Duckworth

[Realeo]

I am having a hard time taking CB's 374 seriously. 2 of the refutations are semantic based (even 1 semantic refutation is not even passable), 1 refutation is fallacy fallacy and 1 is kinda a misrepresentation (although DuckWorth does owe some explanation)

But it's grapes' vote that worries the most.

@DuckWorth

Do you buy UnaBoombah's "intentional fluffing" explanation?

@Grapes

Y ?

[Realeo]

I realize it's annoying how stickler I am for details but can you put into words why you didn't think alch and I was scum/scum.

I don't think my action at that time implies that I consider that it's impossible for scum/scum--for all it's worth it could be a bus--I simply find two sketchy things and the sketchier one deserves more attention.

[Realeo]

My readlist is pretty much IceGuys's readlist unless I say otherwise.

[Realeo]

I am ashamed that I just realize that I don't know IceGuy's fos reasoning for UnaBoombah.

My readlist is pretty much IceGuys's readlist unless I say otherwise.

Please don't go down that route...

It's just that I have covered a lot of player that I don't feel the need to re-state every single of them.

Obviously, I haven't talk about Mulch and ironstove, but I am at agreement with Ice Guy.

[Realeo]

UnaBombah, I just realized I don't know where you are coming from.

This is your read list previously:

Alchemist / Luca Blight
Mulch / Realeo / grapes / commknight
Assembrelowts / ironstove
CB / GNB/ DW
IG

but earlier ago....

I guess a really rough readslist (it's so early, although it is an open game) would be:

Mulch/Assemble/Grapes
Alch
Comm/ (maybe Chip?)
Iron/Duck/Una
Realeo/Luca
Game
Ice

I'm comfortable with this, maybe put me one slot higher in your next list?

I know that you said you're comfortable with this, so it's not exactly mirrors your read, but some of the difference is too starking that makes me think "Really, the difference is still small enough that you are comfortable?"

[*] Your reasoning of why IceGuy is scum came from post 247, but Mulch made this post 158. You already scumread IceGuy before IceGuy made that post. Surely, there is extra reasoning.
[*] CB and Duck is quite a strong townlean while your is a scum lean. I know it's just gut, but from my experience, if you have a gut read quite late, it's usually a product of prolonged weak scum read so I'm kinda skeptical that you're comfortable with Mulcy's read.

[Realeo]

I would be open to lynching IceGuy, Assembrelowts, UnaBoombah (and maybe CB?). I don't think Assembrelowts would gain any traction so UNVOTE:

I am not willing to vote yet. I think UnaBoombah and IceGuy still have questionable spots which can be filled if given the opportunity.

[Realeo]

1. Assemblerotws. <- You know how I feel about this spot
2. Realeo. <-
3. Chip Butty<- I have been considering should this is a play style issue. Still can't shake it off, sorry.
4. GameNBurger <- I JUST REALIZED I NEVER TALK ABOUT THIS. I literally skipped him. Sorry.

I don't really like this guy.

I'm on phone and really don't have time for a proper long response so IOU

But I'm short yes I ultimatley read you as town, I think your behavior is being perceived as low hanging fruit for scum to poke at. Pun intended.

At the moment your votes were on people criticizing you, which I could see as plausible votes given how fast some people pushed you but at the moment you reeked of previous players I've played with before, but I'd like to apologize since after diving into your meta I get the sense of a completely different person than what I've been perceiving this game. Which is disconcerting in a completely different way, but ultimately I couldn't find a game where you were pushed so hard at the beginning in your meta anyways. Really when I start directly engaging with you in the posts (yes the irony of the conclusions of the first post is not lost on me) is when I started to buy you were more of a town lean.

[SNIP]

I don't buy that you don't have time for long explanation but have time for meta dive.

If Una and IceGuy become townier at last second, I can flash wagon him.

5. ironstove <- Vig this. Thx
6. IceGuy <- I kinda town lean this guy, until UnaBombaH reminded me of his fos at him is not justified
7. Luca Blight <- I need more sample than his read @IceGuy. However, unlike Allomancer, I would be generous and give him town lean
8. Duckworth <- I don't necessarily think his vote at CB is a bad vote. There are some questions to answer (for instance, why CB's attempt to recoup it is not enough?)
9. Mulch SmoothBlue <- Sorry. No clues.
10. Alchemist21 <- I am a little bit surprised how he did not question about IceGuy's fos at UnaBombah as well. I think his vote for UnaBombah makes senses.
11. grapes / <- I am comfy with this guy
12. CommKnight <- You know how I feel this spot
13. UnaBombaH <- You know how I feel this spot.

[Realeo]

So you agree with my reads, but would lynch me? I do not see how this makes sense.

I have said "unless otherwise" and I explained that the only thing I haven't "unless otherwise" was Mulch and ironstove.

[Realeo]

Let us dissect this one by one.

Re UnaBombaH:

L

I'm comfortable with this, maybe put me one slot higher in your next list?

Begging for town reads is not towny behavior, being useful to town and getting read as town is.

I'm pretty sure this is NAI. I mean, I think the smile gives away that he is saying that as a joke?

His first reads in #269 are lazy: he townreads a player pretty much everybody townreads, calls me scum for voting him (after two other people have also called me scum), and has a "slight townlean" on the guy that started the wagon on me. There's not a single original thought in that post except for "I was doing it ON PURPOSE!" which isn't really believable.He then continues to post fluff until two hours ago, where he posts a read list. However, those reads are mostly useless. The three reads from before carry over, except that Chip Butty is now town instead of a "slight townlean", but the justification is the same. Five players are read "mainly on gut", two players are neutral as lurkers (which I understand, they really lurk). The Mulch read is useless fluff ("for the catch-up", yeah we know he caught up, but WHY?) and the Realeo read is the only useful read, except many have said essentially the same thing.

The read on me is based on posts from way back and basically parrots Luca a few days ago. Considering I'm his only scum read, I'd think he post something about my reads or the "first place on the townie list" thing, but he doesn't.

tl;dr: There is not a single original thought in any of his posts, but he keeps up appearances of contributing.

Ugh. I think the single original concern is a valid one, but I am having a hard time trying to proof it's "paniking scum" instead of "great town thinks alike". I do agree that Mulch may use extra elaboration

@Una

[Realeo]

The thing is: I suck at early game reading because I don't "understand" tone.
I mainly read interactions, and this game had very few good ones in the first 5 pages or so.
I already admitted as much: they all felt very weird and instead of AI reads, I felt like some of it almost gave better indications on IQs..

@UnaBombaH

When someone have a play style change, something happen that motivates the play style change. What happened?

[Realeo]

On this site, my playstyle has always been about provoking others to commit/disengage and force interactions.
I like to fuel conversations, and pretend to be even more paranoid than I actually am (I mean I am, but not to the extent I seem to be)
Some players have therefore called me "mislynchable" or even "lynchbaity", but my gutreads have often been correct.

I only give this a skim and this seems to check out.

In the games where I join as replacement, I often get guiltied into changing my reads by more experienced players, because they devalue my logic or reads, but I have turned out to be correct multiple times now (even if I have failed in presenting the case).

Ah. Good time. I remember in my first Newbie game, I go head-to-head with a SE which is a confirmed-town in a MYLO with me choosing the right mafia. Did not back down, fortunately.

[Realeo]

I think UnaBombah haven't roll scum in this site, so maybe UnaBombah felt under pressure for first time rolling scum but just found the pefect alibi--but I am willing to give UnaBombaH the benefit of the doubt. Given that waffle is the only case against him (someone remind me if one), I don't see really any case against him.

Speaking of Iceguy, I can understand his logic of "Voting the one who talked the most out of the lurkers"--naturally, if you don't talk enough, you may deserve some credit of the benefit of the doubt and since Una talked, he get "less benefit of the doubt" which naturally puts him in worse position. Been there, done there. I think Iceguy is being consistent with disliking 161. I mean, IceGuy said that he didn't like what he see before voting him so it kinda make senses. But I can't really scratch off IceGuy of the list.

I am skipping UnaBombah. Inclining to vote Assembrelowts given IceGuy's consistency of disliking 161.

[Realeo]

Help me a little bit with fact checking but I'm not sure this is entirely correct or correct but I came with different interpretation.

Like in this particular game you can go and read IceGuys progression on me: he starts with a vote for "no content"

[Realeo]

I'm pretty sure this is NAI. I mean, I think the smile gives away that he is saying that as a joke?

NAI?

Not Alignment Indicative.

Also, there are no jokes in Mafia, just as there are no facts. Every word can be analyzed.

Oh, good luck with that.

[Realeo]

This is your town captain speaking. A quick reminder that we are playing Mafia, not the Apprentice. Thank you!

[Realeo]

@Iceguy

What do you think of this info?

@UnaBombaH When someone have a play style change, something happen that motivates the play style change. What happened?

I'm very good at face-to-face Mafia.
I only joined this site this summer, and I have since won two games and lost six. (although, the six losses have all been replacements in, I think.. )
I tried to figure what I'm doing wrong/correct before this game started, and I also realized that this game has only two(?) players I have played with previously, so I thought now is a good time to test things out.

On this site, my playstyle has always been about provoking others to commit/disengage and force interactions.
I like to fuel conversations, and pretend to be even more paranoid than I actually am (I mean I am, but not to the extent I seem to be)
Some players have therefore called me "mislynchable" or even "lynchbaity", but my gutreads have often been correct.
I base most of my reads on interactions between other players, less on singular posts, but I can do that too.
This is why D1 is always hard for me: the start is often slow, and people are trying NOT to seem scummy at all.
So I decided to go a different route with my newer games: I try to draw attention to myself early game without being outright scummy, and try to gather as much reads before N1 as possible.
Then depending on the NK, I believe I can have a very solid vision on who might be scum.

In the games where I join as replacement, I often get guiltied into changing my reads by more experienced players, because they devalue my logic or reads, but I have turned out to be correct multiple times now (even if I have failed in presenting the case).
So now I have also decided to stick to my reads if I'm feeling confident on them, and then just face the consequences if I miss.
I feel confident in IceGuy being scum.

[Realeo]

I don't even think he is saying that his behavior is making him town, IceGuy.

My question is that given this info, does this info change the way the variable works?

Try again, please.

[Realeo]

Did you see any times where Una fluffed until called on it and then claim it was his plan all along?

Either he didn't do it before or I didn't saw it. A quick ctrl-f shows this is the first time to use the word "fluff" in the context.

[Realeo]

GameNBurger's recent two posts are bad imo. Willing to change wagons to him.

YOU and me can start gameNBurger's wagon together!

FOR WORLD PEACE!

[Realeo]

VOTE: Gamenburger

[Realeo]

Is GameNBurger genuinely read at a speed of 1 page every 48 hours?

[Realeo]

Damn! Forgot grapes again. Sorry, grapes. Second tier.

Something inside my brain keep pinging that ChipButty is scum with grapes.

[Realeo]

Why the change on grapes?

It's not really a change. It's just what my inner vulnerable paranoid soul who is encaged in layers of ego is saying to me.

[Realeo]

I guess anything could fall into reactionary if you argue it far enough

FINALLY! SOME ONE SAID IT!

[Realeo]

You're playing GOTCHA by forcing people to talk about you, or not necesarily GOTCHA, but something to get the game going? Its still stupid because its scummy behavior.

But it's how I play almost all the time!

Did you just call me stupid?

*Realeo cries*

[Realeo]

I take it you're joking with the most recent post Raeleo, I'm really bad at reading jokes and you like joking a lot which isnt a bad thing so I apologize if I misread things

I was being serious..except the crying part.

Being intentionally scummy is a really good tactic to sort people out especially if done right off the gate of RVS. My normal tactic would be something like grapes did--do something a little bit overblown, get scumread, then just be confindent and let my future action speak for itself. Sometimes you have to make sure that you don't get blown up on your own trick. I have a good batting average with being intentionally scummy, my self.

[Realeo]

That is a passable catch up.

UNVOTE:

Can we wagon Asesembrelowts?

[Realeo]

I think my biggest issues with both Una and IceGuy is that there are both argument for and against each other--and it boils down to each player threshold, how much proof is enough or not enough--and it's kinda very easy for scum to fake the threshold and assuming there 1 scum in {Una, IceGuy}, it's easy for scum to mislynch instead of bussing.

The entire case on Una on basically boils down "Given the meta check, do you believe his narrative?" Some people say (like me) "His meta makes senses" and I found it fulfills the burden of proof. Other may say "It kinda helps but not really enough" and it's really easy for scum to tweak this their "level of proof needed to convince me otherwise" to their liking.

The entire case on IceGuy basically boils down "Do you believe his read progression?" Some people say it's too sketchy--a scum paniking--and find his void of action is unaccaptable while some people think IceGuy has done town enough and find the void of action is tolerable and it's really easy for scum to tweak their "level of toleratable lack of action"

[Realeo]

I don't understand why when I present meta, people are like "Uh ok, he checks out,"

so easily

but when I present meta for Una and IceGuy, people went "Uh no, it's not enough. You are going straight to thy kingdom come."

[Realeo]

Any reason you prefer an Assemble lynch to any of the other lurkers, Realeo?

You want to lynch ironstove?

[Realeo]

So Assembrelowts is posting in other games.

It feels like just taking a stab in the dark, which obviously suits scum more as they're not the ones in the dark.

It's kinda like taking a stab in the dark, to be frank. It's something along the line of Assembrelowts has less benefit of the doubt than ironstove. I have talked about this verbosely *cough* CB *cough* in the past.

[Realeo]

I personally think any meta has to be taken with a pinch of salt - it's the first thing scum will take into account.

I will take your justification, but you are not the only one who is being "inconsistent"! There are also ChipButty, GUB, IceGuy, UNH. 5 people!

The only person who seems sane enough is Alchemist (you can see he is trying to make sure I get enough meta) and Mulch.

When there are 5 people being that, you can be sure that a mafia is being opportunistic.

[Realeo]

I don't really understand what you're getting at.

Are you calling us 'inconsistent' for not taking meta into account, or are we being inconsistent because we're not in-keeping with our own meta?

I'm calling people 'incosistent' for clearing me easily when I used meta to defend the 'overtheorising' accusation, but not updating their read other than "It's not enough" when I present meta defending IceGuy or Unh. It feels double standard for me.

For the sake of thought experiment and 502,

@Cb @Luca @UNh @ICeguy @GameNBurger

, so you have your own vote, who do you think is the scum partner? Keep in mind that it's possible that your partner is in the hard lurker bunch.

[Realeo]

Ok, I would give you a pass then.

Would you still participate in the thought experiment, please? Think this as a way to persuade me to vote IceGuy.

[Realeo]

I was expecting someone to do POE analysis.

[Realeo]

Meanwhile I'm bumping each of you down a notch while i try to decide if all this verbosity might be scum-motivated.

I can quote my entire history to show that I am a verbose player.

[Realeo]

As a protest for being scumread for "being verbose", I'm using a picture because..it's zero word?



The more left you are, the townier I read you.
The wider the bar, the more uncertain I am.

Not to be read in an absolute scale (conf town to conf scum) but as a relative scale (the townies of all to the scummies of all)

[Realeo]

@CB

Have you play with Not_Mafia before?

[Realeo]

Well, you get my point.

[Realeo]

But what i am thinking is maybe it is a consciously designed meta so when you are scum you can post walls and people go oh that's just Realeo Realeoing...

Excellent deduction. There is a reason why I am rarely lynched.

It's not exactly "consciously designed" because that implies I specifically choose this attribute and that attribute, but more to "consciously consistently inconsistent"

For more on this, you can refer to that Micro that I used as a defense against "overtheorising"

But for the verbose thingy, it is simply me being an ESL and tired of clarifying what I say on next post. When you're on a wacky timezone (UTC + 7), you would have a long response time ("You say good morning....when it's good night") so you don't want to waste time from people saying "sorry, what do you mean?" and waste those time in the process of waiting for me to wake up.

[Realeo]

My point is that there are some ballsy player that would act like ironstove whose mafia modus operandi is doing exactly nothing.

Let's say that Not mafia is anti-Realeo, if you know what I mean.

[Realeo]

I have pwned someone purely on meta, to be fair. His meta is that if he is scum, he posts Xp more often.

[Realeo]

Like a poker tell. Yeah i could see something like that happening. I imagine in must be rare in typed formed though, as typing is such a conscious act.

Exactly the point. Sometimes you are trying so hard to hide one, you create one. I personally have one. It's just people haven't caught on it.

[Realeo]

Before I answer your question, why am I relegated from your read list? You don't townread me because I make long posts, you townread me because my heart is in the right place--therefore the premise why I am town stays. The only reason it may relegate me is if you scumread my long posts which may discount your townread at me--but you just said you did not.

[Realeo]

VOTE: IceGuy

[Realeo]

I prefer unabombah.

[Realeo]

Ok. That's just wrong.

UNVOTE:

[Realeo]

I don't want to vote Una so I will vote iceguy instead

Y una is better than iceguy?

[Realeo]

Speaking of this.

Mulch, what do you rate the chances of Una-Ice being TvT?

I think the rate is quite high, if your definition of TvT is either {Town v Town} or {Town v Traitor} Given the lack of resistance of the fos between these two people, if I have to assume at least one of them is anti-town, I think it's more likely to be traitor than mafia (or I would be expecting more people defending Una or IceGuy than just me) so my compromise vote is basically me asking my self "Which one is more likely to be a traitor?"

[Realeo]

It really depends on the definition of resistance, to be honest.

When I made 599, my parameter of lack of resistance was lack of polarization.

[Realeo]

Surely the presence of another wagon itself could be a sign of 'resistance'?

When most of the people are lynching one because "one is scummier than other" instead of "I lynch him because I townread the other," not really.

[Realeo]

Saying "always" is an overkill.

But in this context, I think scum is more likely to townread or at lease defend their team mate.

1. If there is a traitor, then traitor will try to townread their mate to telegraph the message "It's me! I am the traitor!"
2. If there is a day talk, since this game is low-activity, assuming neither of the mafia is hard lurkers, this game is easy to be dominated.
3. If there are 3 scums, there is a tendency to do so.

[Realeo]

I just think, if there was a serious risk of their teammate being lynched (which is currently the case with both Una and IceGuy) why would they put themselves at risk by directly defending their partner when they could simply push the opposing wagon?

Because if your partner lynch goes through and you push the opposing wagon, you seems bad?

[Realeo]

Realeo unvoting IceGuy COULD be susp. actually: if he is scum with IceGuy, he might want to keep an appearence of joining the IceGuy-wagon, but wouldn't want to go all the way to a lynch?
Dislike the idea, but it's possible.
Same with Duck: dislike his straight away vote

You couldn't dislike both my unvote and his vote. That is contradiction.

[Realeo]

I'm cool with DK's lynch given that vote.

[Realeo]

I guess this means CB, grapes, Iceguy is cleared by association and UNH is scummier by association?

[Realeo]

<= Insert random rant

[Realeo]

My biggest issue of solving the wagon coming into the day was the fact that IceGuy is town.

When I saw DuckWorth flipped town, in my night tinkering, my mind went "Hold on a second." A major part of the DuckWorth wagon are people who are tunneling into UNA for a long time, but somehow they easily give up their wagon? I would understand that people of IceGuy's wagon decided to give up since they are 3 votes short, but it's kinda hard for me to relate to any of the people on UNA's wagon to fold at the final hour when they can expect people on IceGuy's wagon (ie. me) to fold instead. My conclusion was "One. UNA's wagon reached more attraction--but lose its power easier--because he was the mislynch."

But this IceGuy flip dumbfound me.

[Realeo]

Living:

Assemblerotws
Realeo
Chip Butty
ironstove
Luca Blight
Mulch
Alchemist21
grapes
CommKnight
UnaBombaH

[Realeo]

Which brings me to a question: Realeo, why didn't you vote for anyone?

One does not simply hammer someone without a claim.

[Realeo]

I do agree ChipButty's post is bad. It feels forced IIOA and surprisingly too linear coming from a ChipButty, but it's more to yellow flag given it's early and IIOA is pretty much NAI early.

[Realeo]

WAIT. WAIT. WAIT.

Why ChipButty is fosing (too strong of a word, but you get my point) Alchemist for starting the DuckWorth wagon...when DuckWorth is the guy that ChipButty want?

That's like accusing the drug-dealer for making you OD for delivering the cocaine to you when you are the one who requested the cocaine.

[Realeo]

Which brings me to a question: Realeo, why didn't you vote for anyone?

One does not simply hammer someone without a claim.

I interpret that to mean that if you were going to vote for anyone, it would have been Duckworth. Thanks.

Sure. I'm pretty sure I have said somewhere that I don't like both IceGuy and UNA for mafia, so an alternative lynch is welcomed.

[Realeo]

I don't see analysis at all.

Mulch pushed for IceGuy...that is factual, but so what?
I am not on the wagon...well that is fact of life.
Alchemist seems bad for starting the wagon...well..you don't say.

Something that I would consider as analysis would be something like "Why do I think that Mulch is scum who is afraid to bus instead of stupid town" or "Why do I think Realeo is non-commital mafia having a good alibi instead of town genuinely waiting for claim."

Mentioning the obvious is not analysis. However, I don't think it's scummy because early in game, someone has to mention the obvious soon or later.

[Realeo]

I said Alch only looked bad if Una is scum, which we don't know yet. And even then i didn't say he was scum, only that he didn't look as good as before. I certainly wanted to lynch Duckworth but it wasn't until that Alch post that i actually thought it could happen.

So you are just saying it for the sake of saying it?

[Realeo]

Also the drug dealer could have given me purer shit than usual and not told me, so it could be partly his fault. He has a duty of care to his customers, you know.

Obviously, you are not a Russian.

[Realeo]

If mentioning the obvious is analysis, what is information?

[Realeo]

Wait ChipButty. We have to wait for CommKnight to properly start this semantic disagreement. Semantic disagreement is more fun when someone is scumreading you for it.

[Realeo]

725 pretty much explains why I think CB's post is too linear.

[Realeo]

Wait. Why is it omgus? ChipButty haven't even vote anyone? He is just....shade-throwing?

[Realeo]

@Mulch

Aren't you voting too quickly? Like, the way of you voting CB gave me

de ja vu

of the way you voting IceGuy?

[Realeo]

But you know how i work: i prod people hard and see how they react. I can't say your reaction has been reassuring. Or Realeo's. You both seem a little excited.

What kind of action "reassures" you?

Because if me saying "ChipButty is NAI" is "a little excited" then I don't what is "not excited".

Are you saying I'm supposed to act like ironstove, who is obvious not excited at all?

[Realeo]

Aren't you the person who pushed hard DuckWorth and he flipped town

as well

?

[Realeo]

You are signalling me out and creating fake reasoning, and if you want to convince me otherwise you can go through my 3 points and explain why they are wrong

But you know how i work: i prod people hard and see how they react. I can't say your reaction has been reassuring. Or Realeo's. You both seem a little excited..

So here's what I am seeing here.

You think that I am triggered by you and I am

attacking

you

with

Mulch because we get defensive and a little bit too excited, right?

Wrong.

What you don't understand is that I am not attacking you, I am

defending

you

from

Mulch.

Don't you notice how I downplay your post? Don't you notice how I gave Mulch a prod of not voting too quickly.

Just because someone confronts you, does not mean he attack you. He's probably just want to correct you.

Because mafia...is a feedback process.

#PhilosophyWall
#GodIAmSoTemptedToMakeTrumpWallJoke

[Realeo]

Aren't you the person who pushed hard DuckWorth and he flipped town

as well

?

Sure. That's a strike against me.

But you saw how easily the DW wagon went. There's only 3 scum and i doubt all would be on tbe wagon so that means there was a lot of town enthusiasm there.

Mulch stands out to me a bit for having two strikes. But more for his excited reaction given i didn't even vote him.[/size] This is scum.Mulch behaviour i think.

Elaborate on this. You're skipping way too many insights and just jump on conclusion.

Help me get on the same page with you.

I understand the premise of "DW's wagon is quick" but Is "wagon speed" a reliable parameter in this case? We're talking of a deadline lynch. A quick wagon in the middle of deadline may do shout town ethusiasm, but in a deadline wagon--how do you seperate paniking town and opportunistic mafia?

[Realeo]

VOTE: Una
That theory about Game being killed for his reads? Una was his strongest scumread, and my own reread also left me feeling Una is scum.
Also, the reason I was willing to join the flashwagon against Duckworth was to see how his flip would look for the people who started the flashwagon. Didn't get much out of it, though.

Stop. When you voted Una, you said you're willing to compromise--not because of fishing4reaction. If you compromise, then you have original target. Who was it?

[Realeo]

There is some premise that I disagree but for the sake of the discourse [like counting Mulch as unofficial member. That's just nit-picking.] but let us pretend that I agree with you for the sake of discourse. FTR, I do agree on you with the ease of the wagon. Some of the vote seems sketchy non-commital.

What do you think of Luca? I personally think he pushes harder (literally IceGuy is his fetish) and he's also on the wagon. There are two strikers as well.

[Realeo]

EBWOP

There is some premise that I disagree [like counting Mulch as unofficial member. That's just nit-picking.] but let us pretend that I agree with you for the sake of discourse. FTR, I do agree on you with the ease of the wagon. Some of the vote seems sketchy non-commital.

What do you think of Luca? I personally think he pushes harder (literally IceGuy is his fetish) and he's also on the wagon. There are two strikers as well.

[Realeo]

So what do you mean by "I am a little excited" and me "not reassuring"?

[Realeo]

Wait. Wrong post. I'm just too tired. Deactivating.

[Realeo]

lynch una then maybe chip n butts.

Does this mean you implicitly like Mulch?

[Realeo]

Speaking of UNA's night kill--I have a question: Why am I not dead? Am I not towntelling enough?

[Realeo]

Ok, I’m 99% sure that chip is scum. Those who have played with me before know I’m right when I say this.

You said that to IceGuy.

[Realeo]

I object to Una's lynch.

Well, it's not really object. It's more to

delay

it.

Can we talk about other scum? I want more people talk about Mulch and Assembrelowts.

[Realeo]

For fucking sake, we still have 8 days in the deadline. No need to rush the adrenaline. If you feel the need for adrenaline, porn is there for you.

[Realeo]

Is that an official accusation of "CK is scum with Realeo or Mulch" or just saying it for the sake of saying it?

Let's avoid semantic fight again.

[Realeo]

NO I didn't. I was confident, not this confident. Although, I'm less confident now, I kinda unfortuantely like his last responses

Let's talk about Assembrelowts, shall we? Do you buy his "testing for reaction"?

[Realeo]

It is something to consider.

So you are saying for the sake of saying it, then.

NO I didn't. I was confident, not this confident. Although, I'm less confident now, I kinda unfortuantely like his last responses

Let's talk about Assembrelowts, shall we? Do you buy his "testing for reaction"?

Where

Here.

VOTE: Una
That theory about Game being killed for his reads? Una was his strongest scumread, and my own reread also left me feeling Una is scum.

Also, the reason I was willing to join the flashwagon against Duckworth was to see how his flip would look for the people who started the flashwagon. Didn't get much out of it, though.

[Realeo]

It means i said it because i want people to think about it

So you are fishing for a conclusion from other players. When someone fish a conclusion, they usually want to compare others conclusion with theirs. Just like me,

sanity checking

.

So that's why I asked "Do you officially accuse him?" to see if that's the conclusion. I don't reach that conclusion, so I want to know how you reach if there is one.

You say no, so I don't know your conclusion.

[Realeo]

To follow ChipButty's productive action, I am going to do the same.

I think it's possible for Assemblerotws to be scum
I think it's possible for Chip Butty to be scum
I think it's possible for ironstove to be scum
I think it's possible for Luca Blight to be scum
I think it's possible for Mulch to be scum
I think it's posible for Alchemist21 to be scum
I think it's possible for grapes to be scum
I think it's possible for CommKnight to be scum
I think it's possible UnaBombaH to be scum.

This is not an accusation of any of them is scum. This is not saying it for the sake of saying it. I wish to get people's opinion on what you think I said on it.
This is not an information, this is an analysis since it has no philosophy on it.

[Realeo]

Can you just address the actual points I raised, now that we have had the inevitable semantic discussion?

My issue is I don't know what you are telling me to think about.

Like, you tell me to consider CK+Realeo/Mulch. Ok, why do I have to think it's more likely? Is CK+Realeo/Mulch is a very probably scum partner that I have to give more attention? If yes, why are you voting Una instead.

So you say we should shoot people outside of the lynch zone..which is CK. Do you think CK is likely to be scum? Why? Who is scummier, CK or Una?

[Realeo]

I mean, assume that I am the vig. I'm devastated that I shot a town. I need input.

CB: You should consider CK.

Interesting input, CB. Why should I shoot CK?

CB: Just consider it.

Ok. How do I consider it? Is there "a strike against" CK like there are 2 strikes against Mulch and Luca.

CB: Not really

So why are you telling me to?

CB: Because you have to?

Do you think I can't think? Thank you for telling to.

[Realeo]

So why CK should be shot?

[Realeo]

@Realeo: It's a possibility that could be overlooked. Pointing to it as a possibility to consider is a PSA. Why are you resisting it so hard?

I'm not resisting.

I simply have no opinion on your statement.

As an act of good faith, instead of just saying "I don't know," I try to be proactive and look if you may have some insight so I can make opinion on your insight.

So why CK should be shot?

Not as strong as that but i think he should be in the pool. I am suspicious of his attempt to define the pool in such a way as to exclude himself from it, even though I acknowledge there is some justification for it.

Now we're talking. Thank you.

I don't think excluding himself is scummy. I find that equal to people making a readlist and put him in a conf town because "I know my role pm"

It's cringeworthy, indeed.

[Realeo]

To make my stand clear.

I don't buy Una as mafia. I accept the possibility that he is a traitor. The fact that no one is rescuing him--even when there is no counterwagon--implies that he has no partner. The only case against him was "flufy meta" so I don't think it deserves the conviction the current wagon show. It may invite some vote, but not an L-1 wagon in 2 days.

I think GameNBurger's kill is not a sign pointing to Una is mafia. I think it's just point that mafia thinks GameNBurger is power role. It's possible for Una to pull that WIFOM--it matches his meta--but it's easier to treat WIFOM as NAi instead of gambling.

I don't buy Assembrelowts "looking for reaction" alibi

Also, the reason I was willing to join the flashwagon against Duckworth was to see how his flip would look for the people who started the flashwagon. Didn't get much out of it, though.

My issue is not with the reaction test.

My issue is "Didn't get much out of it."

A lot of thing happens, the speedy UNA wagon; CK play the vig pool plan; Mulch v CommKnight. All of this happened because of the flip. Yet, "I didn't get much out of it?"

I just realized I haven't cast a vote. May as well

VOTE: Assemblerowts

Theoretically if Chip and Una were scum together, do you think they would bus here?

I don't think he would bus.

This is Chip's vote.

Spoiler: Chip's vote at Unabombah

My assessment of IceGuy has changed a bit since going over his ISO again. I...kinda find IceGuy's readlists to be fairly good. My main point of disagreement is with the Luca scumread here. While i think those two are squabbling over trivia, i think the fact that he keeps picking fight with someone who seems widely townread is more towny than scummy. Okay a lot of this stuff isn't wildly original but it's d1 in a slow game, so there's not huge amounts of material yet. He's being combative with both Luca and Una and, while this is something scum can do, again it pushes him toward town for me. He's not hesitating to get clear reads on the record too. So nothing conclusive but i can't find a whole lot to hate. I'm going to move him to townlean, second tier.

I'm largely in agreement with Luca's division into lynchable and u lynchable with now the exception of Ice and noting Mulch as a norderline case. I still think Duckworth is scum but i don't particularly want to lynch a lurker d1, so i think i am going to

UNVOTE: VOTE: UnabombaH

In addition to reasons already stated, his lynch might shed light on his association with Ice at some point. Not supwrscummy, but probably our best option.

[/quote]

ChipButty played the entire game pushing DuckWorth. The transition from "Lynch Duckworth" into "Lynch Unabombah" is too sudden and too forced.

Notice his reasoning at why IceGuy is good therefore Una is the lynch.

...IceGuy does not afraid to get the record straight.
...Combative

Imagine that instead of IceGuy doing that, it's me who is doing that. I wouldn't be labeled as "town" like what he did to IceGuy, I would be labeled as "verbose scummy excited player"

That post either shows he is town with serious tunnel at me or mafia really panicking

I don't think CB would panic THAT BAD.

Implicitly, I think CB is kinda towny. He's just not making it easy for me to townread him.

[Realeo]

EBWOP

That post either shows he is town with serious bias against me or mafia really panicking

[Realeo]

Why IceGuy defending himself is towny but me and Mulch "defending ourself" is "excited scum"?

[Realeo]

Ice sermed calm

How is IceGuy is being calm when being poked by Luca Blight? Like, the entire Luca Blight's case at IceGuy is for IceGuy's exaggeration.

I'm pretty sure calm is the antonym of exaggeration, not the synonym for it.

[Realeo]

Don't dodge the question.

[Realeo]

stfu and stop cluttering the thread with your atyempts to appear cleverer than you are

There is only 1 player who complained that I am full of shit.

There are 4 players who complained that you are full of shit.

[Realeo]

Don't dodge the question.

Show me where you think Ice isn't calm...

The reason why I meta dive him was exactly to defend him from the exaggeration accusation. Why do you think I persuaded Luca to consider his meta?

[Realeo]

There are 4 scummy idiots who complained that you are full of shit.

Get your math right. One of those scummy idiot was GameNBurger. He is not a scummy idiot, he is conf town.

[Realeo]

Stahp! You're giving me a migraine, and i don't even get migraines. You still are dodging the question of what you meant by serious bias...

I AM ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION.

You ask me "What is serious bias?"

I asked "Why do you think of IceGuy and Mulch/Realeo."

You said "Ice is calm. You/Mulch/Comm exaggerated."

I said. "Ice is not calm. The fact that I meta dived is to defend him from exaggeration accusation." That's your bias.

I know that we see words differently--self evident-so I try to find your definition and see you in the middle. By starting from your definition, I can match my definition to yours to avoid more talk.

You are the one who treated this as an ego battle.

[Realeo]

WE have been doing this all the time.

1. When you scumread CK for blowing "hot air",

I asked you

how do you tell the difference between mafia confronting and town confronting

2. You say "ironstove is town for being idle". Instead of just rebuting you,

I asked you

to see if you know Not_Mafia to understand you.

3. You said consider CK. I don't know what you mean so

I asked you

if you have an implicit point.

4. You said you are not biased,

I asked you

about your different treatment so it would be easier to pinpoint it.

If you notice, every time there is a confusion between us, I never start by making my case, I try to understand you.

I'm not trying to challenge your ego. I'm trying to challenge your train of thought.

It's just I learned with the fact that you would not bother to understand me, so I have to live with it and learn to understand you instead.

[Realeo]

@Realeo, if there was something to learn from Duck's wagon, it would most likely come when I also have a lot of other confirmed information. I work a lot better with 10 data points than 1. You didn't see it, but that's why I got nightkilled in Large Normal 204: I replaced in N2, then used all the data available in the thread to locate three scum in two and a half days.

Let's say that I give you the benefit of the doubt and trust you that you are looking for information.

My questions is, what kind of data points are you looking for?

[Realeo]

Where is ironstove when I'm hoping for him to grill una?

[Realeo]

Nah. That is different context.

He got insta town there because the chance of bussing is virtually zero.

Making vig pool is basically an elaborate way of expressing read list.

[Realeo]

^