Mini 1991: Taking Justice Into Our Own Hands (Town Win)

[Luca Blight]

How is not giving someone a chance to claim playing to your win condition, if you're town?

[Luca Blight]

A few reads following my skim through.

Papa Zito - I quite liked his early push on Havo. He can have a town-lean for now.

Cedrick - His opening is generally Ok, but saying he doesn't want to vote Havo but will hammer if he goes to L-1? Perhaps this is just bluster, but I can't really understand that stance.

rb - very surface level posting. Not liking what I'm seeing so far.

Awoo - I liked his push on Q. The 'towniness being shoved down one's face' line really aligned with how I felt while I was reading through.

Havo - I'm just going to dismiss his OP as NAI. In fact, his entire opening seems NAI so far - basically stock responses to suspicions.

NSG - I like her opening. I'm not sure if she's correct regarding the 'off-siter' observation, but it's displaying the right kind of thought-process. An early townread.

Mumble - Scum-lean. He wants to enter aggressively, but I didn't get the impression he was actually trying to sort Lexa during that petty argument.

Q - He looks pretty good on the surface, but a bit LAMIST.

Lexa - didn't like her opening but haven't particularly scumread much else she's posted. Need to ISO again.

[Luca Blight]

but I can't really understand that stance.

I’ve already explained my stance. What’s not to understand?

Well, if you take '

understand

' by it's literal meaning then I do

understand

, I just can't relate to that mindset.

I mean, you don't want to vote him as you don't scumread him, but you'd want to immediately hammer him given the chance to basically teach him a lesson, regardless of what his alignment might be?

It feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Luca Blight]

NSG, your theory relies on Cedrick and Lexa being scum partners. Not only is it way too early to get worked up about potential scumteams, don't you think scum would be mindful of how they communicate with their partners early in the game? I can't imagine a situation where Cedrick and Lexa have a conversation in the scum pt about how they both play on a different site, and then Lexa goes straight in the thread and greets him as a '

fellow off-siter

'. It was an interesting and worthwhile observation, but putting so much stock in it as you have done seems ridiculous to me.

As for Cedrick being too experienced to make the 'pre-game' comment - I agree with rb that, regardless of his experience, there is no way to know if he genuinely intended to deceive with this comment. I'm pretty sure I've had a scum game in the past where the game had started before I even had a chance to post in the pt.

[Luca Blight]

Struggling reading most of this day. Maybe it’s just late but I read and don’t seem to retain any of it. Or maybe it’s just that none of it is sticking out to me yet. But that’s very typical Day 1 for me.

Mumbles seems sketchy but isn’t that always Mumbles?

Luca seems intentionally neutral.

It's quite ironic how you say I'm being

'intentionally neutral

' at the end of a post where you were being pretty neutral yourself.

VOTE: Mumble

So far, mumble, as well as a couple others, have been rubbing me the wrong way reading their posts. Not sure on a lot of things at the moment, but this seems like a better idea than havo at the moment

Care to expand on “a couple others”?

Kinda hard to expand on them when I don't know why.

I just have "this doesn't sit well with me" type reactions on Awoo, Cedric, luca, lexa, and north

Not sure why, but I do

You could at least point out exactly what it is that doesn't sit well with you.

That's not my interpretation. I see it the exact opposite, that Lexa did something suspicious and is trying to put a townie spin on it. Particularly the poorly reasoned hop to Alex felt like scum with bad intentions.

I’m actually surprised you feel that way. I’ve seen way more townies act like that instead of scum. Scum try to remain calm where as townies typically act based on emotions. That seemed like an emotional reaction to me.

I've seen it both ways, scum can get emotional too. What do you think about Lexa's vote on Alex at the end of that argument? I thought it looked like scum jumping off a conversation not going their way, wasn't too impressed with the apparent reasoning of trying to get Alex to post better.

But Mumbles was clearly the one who '

jumped off the the conversation

' before Lexa in 161?

What's everyone's thoughts on Luca Blight?

Apart from being a pretty good villain in Suikoden 2.

Kind of null to me. He's making some relevant observations, but that's pretty much all they are. I'm not seeing any real analysis from his posts. His read on rb in 178 is especially hilarious - he says rb's posting is very surface level, but I haven't seen any better from Luca himself in his 4 posts.

Hilarious you say? My word, you are easily entertained.

Perhaps someone who has posted regularly ought to have more depth to their posting than someone who had merely skimmed the thread up until that point?

NSG, your theory relies on Cedrick and Lexa being scum partners. Not only is it way too early to get worked up about potential scumteams, don't you think scum would be mindful of how they communicate with their partners early in the game? I can't imagine a situation where Cedrick and Lexa have a conversation in the scum pt about how they both play on a different site, and then Lexa goes straight in the thread and greets him as a '

fellow off-siter

'.

It was an interesting and worthwhile observation, but putting so much stock in it as you have done seems ridiculous to me.

As for Cedrick being too experienced to make the 'pre-game' comment - I agree with rb that, regardless of his experience, there is no way to know if he genuinely intended to deceive with this comment. I'm pretty sure I've had a scum game in the past where the game had started before I even had a chance to post in the pt.

Bold part is from me, what makes the observation worthwhile if it's not worth putting stock in? How much stock is the limit before it starts getting ridiculous?

It's worthwhile in the sense it creates an early discussion point and a potential, if unlikely, link between two players that can be referred back to later on. It starts getting ridiculous when you start to tunnel a player based on this on D1 when the theory is mainly conjecture.

Your line of questioning here is ridiculous, incidentally. Please tell me what you were trying to achieve with this.

[Luca Blight]

Havo's disclaimer in 7...hmm. By definition it can't be alignment indicative but could it imply something about his state of mind that he felt the need to post the disclaimer in the first place? Inherently it has to lean town because while both alignments want to notify the game of their intent here, scum can't be as willing to get policy lynched. If future posts hold coherent with a town mindset this slot probably sorts town.

The more pressing inference is of his playstyle, the severe disagreement with D1 as a concept and the refusal to give reads suggests that Havo either is unconfident with or doesn't believe in independent behaviour as reliably indicating alignment and prefers either role results or flip associations to sort people. If Havo starts attempting to sort people based on behavioural reads that could be a scum indication.

This whole paragraph is just meaningless filler dressed up to look nice.

How can something that is NAI '

inherently lean town

'? That makes no sense.

"

If future posts hold coherent with a town mindset this slot probably sorts town

" - genius. So basically if he looks townie he's probably town. This has nothing to do with Havo's opening post.

Bolded

- Why mention what you believe could be a scum indication in the future instead of just waiting to see if it happens? You've ruined your own theory, as if Havo is scum you've just alerted him as to what he shouldn't do to in order to avoid a scumread on you. I also think this is complete BS - I don't see how not liking day 1 can't align with sorting people based on behavioral reads? I don't see how anyone can go through a game without sorting players based on behaviour at some point.

Riggs at post 26 still feels weird. Yeah it's only page two but to this point the game is already out of RVS with a 3 vote wagon on Havo and two previous votes sitting on mumble, plus a lot of relevant posts related to Havo's principle. Entering by ignoring all of that is...weird...but I'm not certain if it's alignment indicative. Have to imagine it signifies either cautious mafia or busy/unaware town. Could be a relevant marker but it seems more likely that he would have read the 25 posts than not.

Huh then he follows up at 30 by voting Havo after prompting by zito. Seems to support both narratives, either not noticing the wagon or not wanting to join until prompted. Possibly self-conscious? Feeling awkward for not having joined or commented on the existing wagon?

What's with all this over-analysis? It feels like you're trying too hard. 26 is not weird; it's a standard RVS opening. I've seen it happen in pretty much every game that people, myself included, will enter the game late and make a completely unrelated RVS vote before they've even bothered to read anything. It's NAI.

Your point regarding 30 is fair enough.

fitz 55 seems fine on the surface but that's kind of the problem I have with it, very surface level reasoning. Seems more interested in pointing out things to use as ammunition rather than thinking about why that thing exists. Note to check future posts for this degree of thinking.

I don't see why it's surface level - he's questioning your contradictory stance. How can he get a deeper read until you've explained yourself?

Right so Mumble is being a dick while pushing me in 132/135/137, sure fine, whatever. It's posts like 140 that really support the aggro scum theory: it's Mumble who comes up with the idea that I'm voting him (and not alex) for thinking that they're scum. Except that at no point did I suggest he was scummy, my vote and follow up was entirely about getting him to post content. It's Mumble who creates my supposed mindset and it's Mumble who uses that creation as a means to attack me for voting him (and not alex). He's manipulated the situation and filled in gaps with his own ideas in order to put me on the defensive and discredit my vote on him. Like there's some behavioural considerations that he might be town but fuck that, this is scum. Looks a lot less obtuse and a lot more manipulative with a clear head looking at it.
VOTE: Mumble

Wait, you're voting him primarily because he thinks you scumread him based on your vote? This seems like

you're

the one being a bit manipulative here - voting someone for anything other than a pure RVS vote implies some kind of scumread and seems a fair assumption on Mumble's part. I don't particularly like Mumbles myself at this point but your reasoning here is weak.

Note to self, 1v1 Luca. 178 suggests that he's having thoughts and engaging in some way but it's all surface level, need to see the thought process.

These '

notes to self

' are cringeworthy as hell. Can't you invest in a notepad or something to store your notes privately?

My 'surface level' reads were probable due to having only skimmed the thread as I already explained. Why the desire to 1v1 me? This just seems LAMIST.

Riggs is back at 227 with a curious vote on mumble, it's now the second time he shows up and makes a relatively empty post onto one of the main wagons. It does seem to provide some light support for the cautious mafia theory since it's impossible to argue he's unaware here. It's also curious to me because it seems like an awkward way to enter into a wagon on your scumbuddy, very low committal when your justification is "has been rubbing me the wrong way". Comfortable putting riggs in my scum pile but I'm also thinking that riggs isn't scum if mumble is and if mumble is town riggs is scum. Don't think town riggs impacts mumble's alignment yet.

How do you imagine Riggs would have entered the wagon if he was Mumble's scum buddy?

Luca's 244 is a good look. Valid arguments and reasoning in response to NSG's case on Cedrick, but doesn't use it as a segue into a vote or case on NSG.

Another light compliment followed by light shading. Why would I vote or make a case on NSG when I've liked her opening for the most part, as I already said?

Alexcellent is lock town for me. 276 is a really strong thought process, a very natural read devlopment and a coherent mindset justifying their read on me. 278 is even better, a very high level reasoning trying to get at numberq's mindset when posting. Straightforward, rational, no exaggeration or misdirection, I would be shocked if this flipped scum.

They are decent posts from Alex, but lock town already? It doesn't seem to align with your over-analytical style to write someone off as definitely town based on two posts on D1.

[Luca Blight]

Awoo, has your scumread on the Q slot strengthened since Cane entered the game, or is it still based entirely on Q?

[Luca Blight]

I have the benefit of knowing all the scum are currently voting someone, and if I believe in my town leans on Awoo and Zito then that means they are all sitting on the two big wagons. Lexa v Mumble certainly seems like TVS given the competitive wagons that are at a bit of a standoff, although obviously this situation can be manipulated by a competent scum team to make a TVT look like a TVS.

Out of the players sitting on the big wagons, the scummiest/least townie are probably GNR, Cane (owing mainly to Q) and Havo. RB seems town to me. Lexa seems more townie than Mumble. NSG and Fitz I'm both torn on. NSG seemed townie at the start, but I'm suspicious how how her stance hasn't changed at all on Lexa. She seems too content on that wagon. Fitz' ISO'ing and reasoning for voting Lexa again seems weak, but his overall game seems similar to how he played as Town in our previous game together. I do loathe to put too much stock in meta, however.

I'm probably gonna vote Mumble but I need to ISO a bit more first.

[Luca Blight]

Don't give a shot about counterclaim you're just lying

How can you be so sure he's lying?

And it is a bit weird how you stated your role as if it was poof he's scum.

[Luca Blight]

I have the benefit of knowing all the scum are currently voting someone, and if I believe in my town leans on Awoo and Zito then that means they are all sitting on the two big wagons. Lexa v Mumble certainly seems like TVS given the competitive wagons that are at a bit of a standoff, although obviously this situation can be manipulated by a competent scum team to make a TVT look like a TVS.

Out of the players sitting on the big wagons, the scummiest/least townie are probably GNR, Cane (owing mainly to Q) and Havo. RB seems town to me. Lexa seems more townie than Mumble. NSG and Fitz I'm both torn on. NSG seemed townie at the start, but I'm suspicious how how her stance hasn't changed at all on Lexa. She seems too content on that wagon. Fitz' ISO'ing and reasoning for voting Lexa again seems weak, but his overall game seems similar to how he played as Town in our previous game together. I do loathe to put too much stock in meta, however.

I'm probably gonna vote Mumble but I need to ISO a bit more first.

this is a weird ass angle. i take it at this point you're the only one not voting... and that's useful information how? knowing scum placed votes means quite literally nothing. and, using your town conclusion on awoo and zito you deduce scum are all on the 2 big wagons... which, again, means absolutely nothing?_? i don't get it, please explain the relevance because your post is a glorified reads list. hell, you said the wagons are TvS (probable because Lexa is probably S) and then used absolutely no interaction reason (what actually creates the situations where TvS is valid) and instead used bad wagonomics. granted this is under a blanked, but the speed a wagon grows is not relevant just like this isn't. the wagons being at a standoff doesn't mean TvS, if anything it implies SvS or TvT with scum on both sides of it? Not that it does imply that, it implies nothing because its a bad train of thought unless you explain why I'm wrong / misunderstanding.

I see you're carrying on your slot's tradition of asking stupid questions.

I was stating my thought process. It's likely all the scum are on the two big wagons - how is that not useful information?

Glorified reads list? How is it '

glorified

' exactly? It was just a rough summation of my thoughts on the current situation.

The two competitive wagon at a standoff implies SvT to me because a) as we've established all the scum are likely to be on the wagons and b) neither is giving much ground - both sides have staunch support. The likelihood of this being scum trying to prevent a mislynch seems decent. As I mentioned, it could be scum manipulating the situation so it appears that way, when in reality it is TvT, hence why I'm not putting too much stock in this on D1.

As for the interactions bit you wanted, I did say I would be ISO'ing first before committing a vote for this very reason.

[Luca Blight]

1. It's useful for analytical reasons, especially later in the game when Mumble/Lexa flip. Although I'm becoming less sure on my Zito read - he's become a lot more passive after a promising opening.

2. Well I certainly didn't intend for it to be glorified. If I wanted to make a reads list then I would have made a reads list. On this occasion I wanted to share exactly what was in my mind at that given time.

3. I'm not arguing scum are supporting both wagons. It could easily be scum trying to save a partner as I already said. It wouldn't even surprise me if all three scum are on the same wagon - I've seen this happen a good few times in the past even on D1.

Both sides have support, but that doesn't necessarily mean all the support is from scum, of course. I'm not sure why you're making that assumption.

[Luca Blight]

I think it's fair to say Mumble and Lexa aren't both scum - otherwise that would be some fine play acting.

Mumble's claim certainly felt more believable than Lexa's; His confident tone when replying to Lexa's claim, and his assuredness he wouldn't be counter-claimed. Also the way he gave the reads after didn't feel like scum merely playing for time before being lynched, although why he's waited until now to start openly sorting players I don't know.

Lexa's immediately felt like BS with apparent bravado of her claim, which doesn't even directly affect Mumble's claim. Her reasoning in 536 that she believes Mumble's role should also have a modifier seems a rash assumption on her part, yet strangely genuine. I'm in agreement with Cedrick that both are best left alone for the time being.

VOTE: Guy_Named_Riggs

He's done very little, to the point it feels like he's just trying to coast through the day unnoticed. I don't like the appeasement of 30, nor do I like the vagueness of his Mumble vote or his shading of certain players in 257. In 328 He says he's '

going through things now

', yet all he subsequently manages is a passive question at Zito as to why he suspects Cedrick over others. Cedrick was also one of the ones Riggs shaded earlier, so presumably he should have been able to relate somewhat to Zito's scumread on Cedrick.

[Luca Blight]

I'm starting to get scummy vibes from Fitz - he is straying very far from how he played in the other game we were in as Town. He was a lot more standoffish in that, certainly never pushing as hard as he is here.

Just as I was skeptical over Lexa's sureness that Mumble was lying, I'm also not buying Fitz' conviction that Cedrick and Lexa are a scumteam - it feels like he's too far down the tunnel to back out so he's going all guns blazing.

[Luca Blight]

I think Cedrick is scum. I just cannot see town hard defending someone on D1 and hard as he has...even before Lexa's fakeclaim.

In that case why are you townreading Cane when he's been doing the same for Mumble?

[Luca Blight]

I'm becoming skeptical as to Awoo's position in this game. He seems to have inexplicably downed tools since Cane replaced into this game. I can understand wanting this slot lynched, but he hasn't given any read on Cane independant from Q, and while I agree with some of his Q case it isn't strong enough for a lockscum read.

Especially now, given what's just occurred, we're at a point where a decent Cane push could pick up momentum, as there is no clear alternative to the PR claims.

[Luca Blight]

I didn't say he wasn't a good alternative; I said there is no 'clear' alternative, as in a lot of players are currently undecided on what to do next.

I'm generally fine with a Fitz lynch; I disagree with his stance and think he's a decent bet for scum, although I'm not convinced he would be quite so brash as scum on D1. This is what's giving me pause on Fitz.

[Luca Blight]

i'll post a read list, but it aint in 2 mins

It's been an hour. Are you still working on it?

[Luca Blight]

eddie i'm not power towning for 14 day cycles lol

Now that the dust has settled and you've had a chance to cool down, how are you feeling? Still convinced Mumble is scum?

[Luca Blight]

@Zito

- you gave two decent reasons why Cedrick might be town, so it begs the question why exactly does he remain your top scumspect? I don't believe you've ever properly explained this read.

[Luca Blight]

We could really do with hearing less from Fitz and Cedrick and more from Lexa and Mumble themselves; both have been eerily quiet since revealing their supposed power roles.

And let's not forget Riggs - he needed more than 2 minutes for his reads list which I guess is fair enough, but 12+ hours is taking the piss.

[Luca Blight]

To be fair Cedrick, you haven't exactly wavered on your read of Lexa.

[Luca Blight]

He's also not the only one who would rather lynch one of the PR claims, so you can't say that is hugely AI.

This is a closed setup and there is a definite argument to lynching one of the PR claims at this point.

[Luca Blight]

@Mod

- prod on NSG, if you don't mind?

[Luca Blight]

zito
alex, eddie
cedrick, luca
awoo, havo. rb
nsg, fitz
riggs
mumble

Does this mean you've become less certain of your Alex read, given he was locktown to you earlier?

[Luca Blight]

Should I vote Riggs, Eddie? Cuz you and Lexa are both on the wagon...

This is a pretty weird question to ask for two reasons:

1) Why seek someone else's permission to hammer someone, especially when we're still far from deadline and you're apparently unable to catch-up properly due to being on your phone.

2) If Eddie said yes then he would deny Riggs the chance to claim, even though Mumble himself had earlier complained about not being able to trust people on this site to allow him to claim before hammering?

So Awoo why did you stop tunneling eddie cane?

See i actually liked awoo as town but now i'm beginning to doubt

But I'm pretty sure papa zito and alexcellent are town so i can live with this tradeoff

... not tunnelling me makes you doubt he's town?

I said almost the same thing in 631 (not quite as bluntly) which you didn't have a problem with, so I don't get your stance here, and in your following back and forth with rb. You imply here that 'tunnelling' isn't a townie thing to do, which obviously isn't the case. If it's done with conviction then it is more of a town trait, but given Awoo abandoned his tunnel so easily, particularly when it could have easily gained momentum following the pr claims, it does seem dubious.

[Luca Blight]

Havo, you town.

What is this based on?

[Luca Blight]

I don't find Lexa's readlist particularly impressive; very wishy washy. Her comments on Zito seem way OTT to me.

[Luca Blight]

and where in the fuck do I imply "tunnelling isn't a townie thing to do"?

So Awoo why did you stop tunneling eddie cane?

See i actually liked awoo as town but now i'm beginning to doubt

But I'm pretty sure papa zito and alexcellent are town so i can live with this tradeoff

... not tunnelling me makes you doubt he's town?

[Luca Blight]

That's obviously what you're implying there. You even threw in the '...' for added effect.

[Luca Blight]

Yes, breaking off tunnelling in of itself can't be deemed scummy, but the circumstances that surround it (not choosing to push your wagon when the chance was there following the pr claims as I said) kind of make it so, as it no longer feels like a genuine scumread. I thought this was so obvious it basically went without saying, but you seemed to deliberately miss rb's point.

[Luca Blight]

Try reading the bit in between the brackets.

[Luca Blight]

Yes, breaking off tunnelling in of itself can't be deemed scummy, but the circumstances that surround it

(not choosing to push your wagon when the chance was there following the pr claims as I said)

kind of make it so, as it no longer feels like a genuine scumread. I thought this was so obvious it basically went without saying, but you seemed to deliberately miss rb's point.

And you have the nerve to call others stupid...

[Luca Blight]

Especially now, given what's just occurred, we're at a point where a decent Cane push could pick up momentum, as there is no clear alternative to the PR claims.

What implies a cane push could pick up momentum? Not a single other slot has voted me. At the time, maybe Derrick but not you and RB iirc had expressed any fos on me, so it was a losing battle. Knowing I'm town, I really don't get how it's scummy he didn't try to double down and push me when he had the "opportunity". And btw, that "opportunity" was there, existing wagons doesn't mean you don't push someone.

No-one had voted Riggs until I did, yet it gained momentum. The question ought to be why

shouldn't

a Cane push be able to pick up momentum? Particularly given how convinced he is you're scum.

[Luca Blight]

Yes, breaking off tunnelling in of itself can't be deemed scummy, but the circumstances that surround it

(not choosing to push your wagon when the chance was there following the pr claims as I said)

kind of make it so, as it no longer feels like a genuine scumread. I thought this was so obvious it basically went without saying, but you seemed to deliberately miss rb's point.

And you have the nerve to call others stupid...

I was looking in 631 and rbs posts since, yknow, that's what we were talking about.

And to follow up the below post, I still don't get how addressing other slots and voting outside of me and not doubling down is scummy. at all.

You're moving the goalposts here - that is not what's being called scummy.

Maintaining his scumread on you while not pushing or engaging you in any way, shape or form since you entered the game and despite the circumstances I mentioned is dubious at best.

[Luca Blight]

Especially now, given what's just occurred, we're at a point where a decent Cane push could pick up momentum, as there is no clear alternative to the PR claims.

What implies a cane push could pick up momentum? Not a single other slot has voted me. At the time, maybe Derrick but not you and RB iirc had expressed any fos on me, so it was a losing battle. Knowing I'm town, I really don't get how it's scummy he didn't try to double down and push me when he had the "opportunity". And btw, that "opportunity" was there, existing wagons doesn't mean you don't push someone.

No-one had voted Riggs until I did, yet it gained momentum. The question ought to be why

shouldn't

a Cane push be able to pick up momentum? Particularly given how convinced he is you're scum.

Because Riggs is a lurker who's done nothing since the game started. I can't answer for Awoo for why he didn't still push me.

Does him not pushing me still look bad for you if I reveal as ic? Guess we should clear that up first

.

Why would that affect anything?

[Luca Blight]

it is a fancy way of saying does me being town change anything for you

I repeat: why would that affect anything?

[Luca Blight]

it is a fancy way of saying does me being town change anything for you

I repeat: why would that affect anything?

that's why I asked if it does for you. me being conf town to you means awoo had two cases on a townie people were saying were genuine, and a perfect opportunity to continue tunnelling me and be townread for it but didn't. what's the scum motivation there? little, basically just wouldn't believe they could get a mislynch on me. opportunism works at first glance but they look hella worse from a riggs flip than they do low-key pushing me.

There could be plenty of scum motivation - he stopped tunnelling soon after you replaced in, despite his read not changing. Perhaps he saw Q as an easier target? Perhaps he didn't want to get drawn into a potential 1v1? Perhaps he simply lacked the energy to continue faking his scumread to such a level? I believe a fair few said his case was poor, incidentally.

Where is the town motivation in not pushing your main scumread when there was a clear window to do so?

[Luca Blight]

@Mod

- prod on Riggs please. I've got the feeling he might have flaked, given the timing of his disappearance.

NSG is also pushing it a bit - the only thing she's posted in four days has been a prod dodge.

[Luca Blight]

To which page have you caught up so far?

[Luca Blight]

page 35, mumble hesitating on joining the wagon is towny.

Joining the wagon? Riggs is L-1 at this point - it would be a hammer.

Scum wouldn't be hesitant in hammering someone half way through D1?

[Luca Blight]

oh, you're right, hadn't fully comprehended that he was l-1.

is gnr your top scumread, luca?

So how does that affect your view of Mumble's hesitancy? Is it still townie?

Riggs is my best best to flip scum. I think it's likely one of the pr claims are scum, but I'm not entirely sure which one.

[Luca Blight]

best bet*

[Luca Blight]

Any particular reason you don't townread me any more for that? And what is your read on me anyway?

[Luca Blight]

You've completely skipped over the whole Lexa v Mumble role claim business. What are your thoughts on that?

[Luca Blight]

Thoughts on Cedrick and Fitz would be good as well.

You had Fitz as 'confidently Town' earlier, has that view changed after that back and forth?

[Luca Blight]

oh yeah, i had read that but never actually posted about it. this is mostly just a reflection of my reads before that event but i think mumble's claim makes a lot more sense from a town perspective whereas lexa's counterclaim and the way he went about that seemed more just trying to get mumble killed and the confidence that he had that mumble was lying didn't make a lot of sense, although obviously just waiting should resolve this (granted, i did just lose an open to a fakeclaiming scum where i wanted to lynch him but everyone else said that it would resolve itself – it never did).

So what makes you think the situation will resolve itself, given you just had a game where this didn't happen?

Your tone reads really indifferent here, like '

meh, I'll just go along with the popular opinion

'.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Guy_Named_Riggs

He's done very little, to the point it feels like he's just trying to coast through the day unnoticed. I don't like the appeasement of 30, nor do I like the vagueness of his Mumble vote or his shading of certain players in 257. In 328 He says he's '

going through things now

', yet all he subsequently manages is a passive question at Zito as to why he suspects Cedrick over others. Cedrick was also one of the ones Riggs shaded earlier, so presumably he should have been able to relate somewhat to Zito's scumread on Cedrick.

This was the basis behind my initial scumread, but most damning has been his reaction to Awoo's questioning - not only failing to give any 'live' thoughts on anyone, but seemingly flaking from the game as a result.

I feel town in this situation would at least throw out some thoughts, no matter how basic they might be.

[Luca Blight]

I've never understood the strong townreads on Alex personally. His posts have generally been Ok, but they do seem on the careful side.

And this is weird:

I also challenge the people who town read mumble to explain what he’s done that’s protown. Cause I don’t see anything in his iso.

He hasn't done anything protown, he hasn't done anything that I view as scummy either. Town read on him is gut and I can see his aggression being town aggression. To be fair I can see his play coming from both alignments. Except for his claim. His claim makes no sense from any alignment.

This post is so awkwardly on the fence it's painful to read.

[Luca Blight]

Yeah, it was just worded awkwardly and needlessly so imo.

I'm actually scumreading Lexa more based on her confidence that Alex is Town - he made a couple of decent posts and Lexa was so quick to hard townread it as if she wanted the credit for it or something.

[Luca Blight]

That's kinda bullshit mate, I don't think his posts were "just decent"

I

think they're decent, I realise you seem to think they're amazing but I disagree.

[Luca Blight]

I'm also curious as to why you never responded to Alex's points against you?

To locktown him in part for making good points as to why you're scummy, while not actually addressing his points, seems off to me.

[Luca Blight]

I still don't see why you couldn't have addressed his points in your giant wall post while you were locking him as town.

[Luca Blight]

"

276 is a really strong thought process, a very natural read devlopment and a coherent mindset justifying their read on me.

"

I mean, someone you are confident is Town has made coherent and justified reasons your behaviour is scummy, and yet you don't feel the need to address them?

[Luca Blight]

Like I don't really give a shit if someone scum reads me or cases me of that post gives me an indication of what alignment they are. If I can sort them as town I don't need to think about the post beyond that, if I call them out on it something is catching my eye or needs to be clarified

So you're basically saying you never respond to anyone's suspicion/points made against you?

It just seems peculiar to praise a strong townread's reasoning for suspecting you without any sort of explanation on your part.

Cane seems to know your meta like the back of his hand so I guess he can answer if this is normal for you.

[Luca Blight]

@Mod

- I trust Alex will be getting a prod soon? (I hate to keep pointing these things out but this inactivity really sets the game back)

You're all good. I regularly check the activity overview for obvious prods, so it's a little unnecessary, but I'm not bothered by you pointing this out.

[Luca Blight]

Thoughts on Alex's Cedrick vote?

[Luca Blight]

NSG - can you post a reads list so we can see where you're at.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Guy_Named_Riggs

He's done very little, to the point it feels like he's just trying to coast through the day unnoticed. I don't like the appeasement of 30, nor do I like the vagueness of his Mumble vote or his shading of certain players in 257. In 328 He says he's '

going through things now

', yet all he subsequently manages is a passive question at Zito as to why he suspects Cedrick over others. Cedrick was also one of the ones Riggs shaded earlier, so presumably he should have been able to relate somewhat to Zito's scumread on Cedrick.

This was the basis behind my initial scumread, but most damning has been his reaction to Awoo's questioning - not only failing to give any 'live' thoughts on anyone, but seemingly flaking from the game as a result.

I feel town in this situation would at least throw out some thoughts, no matter how basic they might be.

This is a horrendous post and probably scummy

Let’s lynch this slot

VOTE: luca Blight

Explain how it's a '

horrendous post and probably scummy

'.

Going for the easy way out and hoping a lurker slot flips scum

Nice

Is this referring to me?

@Luca, can I get some reads from you?

Tons of questions and stuff in your ISO appears townie but I'm having a hard time figuring you out

Off the top of my head:

Town: Zito, rb
Town lean: Cedrick, Cane, Fitz
Null: Alex, Havo
Scum lean: NSG, Mumble, Lexa, Awoo
Scum: Riggs/Fissure/Mulch

[Luca Blight]

“Town in this spot would give reaosns”

Horrible posting

I believe the quote was:

"

I feel town in this situation would at least throw out some thoughts, no matter how basic they might be.

"

[Luca Blight]

Going for the easy way out and hoping a lurker slot flips scum

Nice

This seems like a scum slip to me - he's scumreading me, yet says here I'm

'hoping

' his slot flips town?

He's talking as if he knows I'm town, yet he's scumreading me.

[Luca Blight]

flips scum*

[Luca Blight]

I’m basing my read on Luca solely on the fact he was nightkilled night 1 in an MU game so I’m making the assumption he’s somewhat decent and not the kind of player to post trash like that

Eddie help me with this

No I wasn't, and we've played together at least twice before on here from what I can remember.

You also misquoted me to make it look like 'trash', when really it was nothing of the sort.

[Luca Blight]

A few reads following my skim through.

Papa Zito - I quite liked his early push on Havo. He can have a town-lean for now.

Cedrick - His opening is generally Ok, but saying he doesn't want to vote Havo but will hammer if he goes to L-1? Perhaps this is just bluster, but I can't really understand that stance.

rb - very surface level posting. Not liking what I'm seeing so far.

Awoo - I liked his push on Q. The 'towniness being shoved down one's face' line really aligned with how I felt while I was reading through.

Havo - I'm just going to dismiss his OP as NAI. In fact, his entire opening seems NAI so far - basically stock responses to suspicions.

NSG - I like her opening. I'm not sure if she's correct regarding the 'off-siter' observation, but it's displaying the right kind of thought-process. An early townread.

Mumble - Scum-lean. He wants to enter aggressively, but I didn't get the impression he was actually trying to sort Lexa during that petty argument.

Q - He looks pretty good on the surface, but a bit LAMIST.

Lexa - didn't like her opening but haven't particularly scumread much else she's posted. Need to ISO again.

So bad

Calling things 'bad' with no explanation isn't going to help your cause in any way.

I’m basing my read on Luca solely on the fact he was nightkilled night 1 in an MU game so I’m making the assumption he’s somewhat decent and not the kind of player to post trash like that

Eddie help me with this

No I wasn't, and we've played together at least twice before on here from what I can remember.

You also misquoted me to make it look like 'trash', when really it was nothing of the sort.

Wait were you my scum partner once

Yes, and in another game you played like shit and got mislynched D1.

[Luca Blight]

“Town in this spot would give reaosns”

Horrible posting

I believe the quote was:

"

I feel town in this situation would at least throw out some thoughts, no matter how basic they might be.

"

[Luca Blight]

What the did I mis quote

Luca if your town help me here

Why do you not scumread lexa or havo

I do have Lexa as a scumlean. Havo hasn't done much that I consider AI.

[Luca Blight]

“Town in this spot would give reaosns”

Horrible posting

I believe the quote was:

"

I feel town in this situation would at least throw out some thoughts, no matter how basic they might be.

"

Yes I understand what you said
I heavily disagree and it’s bad logic

Why

wouldn't

town throw out some thoughts in that situation? Even if their thoughts are shit and undeveloped, they have nothing to hide.

Scum on the other hand want their story straight before committing their hand.

[Luca Blight]

What the did I mis quote

Luca if your town help me here

Why do you not scumread lexa or havo

I do have Lexa as a scumlean. Havo hasn't done much that I consider AI.

What if I told you he’s much more aggressive as town

Havo? He said he doesn't play like that on D1 which I'll take at face value. I expect more from D2 onwards.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca, with Fissure's replacement, do you find their slot more scummy, less scummy or about the same?

I didn't find his catch-up particularly impressive; he's throwing shit around without any consideration and jumping to conclusions, and his attack on me was terrible.

I do find players like Mulch difficult to read as they're scatty as either alignment, but my read on this slot has not yet changed.

[Luca Blight]

I don't really want a Cedrick lynch today; as annoying as he is to read, I feel the hard stances he's taken make him more likely town.

My lynch pool is something like: Fissure, Awoo, maybe NSG.

If we're taking a punt on the PR's I'd probably side with lynching Lexa.

[Luca Blight]

Alex, I've already talked a fair bit about Awoo. NSG is more of a gut feeling - I liked her opening but I've felt nothing from her recent posts.

I'm willing to give Mulch a pass for today to give him a fair chance.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lexa

I can see this flipping red.

[Luca Blight]

I've become very confident Zito is Town based on his recent posts - his thought process is pretty much the same as mine.

The only thing that's kept me from voting Mumble has been the fact he seemed fairly assured with his claim (he could always be Mafia Doctor though, which would explain this) and the fact Cane, who I'm town leaning, meta defends him while meta attacking Lexa. However, Cane says Mumble essentially prodges as scum, and apart from his argument with Lexa that is what he's essentially done this game.

I don't trust Fissure's urgency to have Lexa lynched at all - I hoped cutting him some lack would give him a chance to calm down and lay out his thoughts properly, but I was wrong so I'm back here again.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Fissure

[Luca Blight]

Fissure, explain to me why Mumble can't possibly be scum here?

[Luca Blight]

Fissure, explain to me why Mumble can't possibly be scum here?

I've played an entire scumgame with them as partners, and their play here is drastically different

unless they changed how they played in a couple months, there is no way they are scum here

You're not explaining why their play is different.

[Luca Blight]

Also you said earlier my play was different when we were partners, yet you still scumread me...

[Luca Blight]

Fissure, explain to me why Mumble can't possibly be scum here?

I've played an entire scumgame with them as partners, and their play here is drastically different

unless they changed how they played in a couple months, there is no way they are scum here

You're not explaining why their play is different.

They did not take any stances as scum; they did not do any OMGUS; they tried to pocket, not be aggresive; they lurked even more than this, believe it or not; they had no passion; they tried to pocket, not scumhunt.

Is this based off one game? How long ago was it?

Apart from Mumble's argument with Lexa (anyone can get drawn into an argument) Mumble has pretty much played as you described. I don't believe the case is clear cut enough to rule him out of being scum.

I also hate players being entirely judged by meta, and I just lost a game where a scum member survived the entire game solely on being meta defended by both sides.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lexa

L-1

[Luca Blight]

Final thoughts on everyone, Lexa?

[Luca Blight]

Charming.

[Luca Blight]

Based on what?

[Luca Blight]

NSG made this comment when Lexa was under fire and the leading wagon:

Awoo, explain your read on me? You haven't really talked about that and that placement seems to me to run contrary to what's been said when we've interacted.

No mention of Lexa, who she apparently scumread, and trying to subtly divert attention elsewhere.

VOTE: NSG

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: northsidegal

For the sake of the vote counter.

[Luca Blight]

are you also making the point that my earlier interactions with lexa were scum/scum or distancing? because otherwise that seems like kind of an (and i mean no offense by this) ignorant vote – like you're focusing on something relatively minute and ignoring the rest of the context. that's not something i expect from you luca, so it's a little surprising.

Why could your early play not be scum v scum distancing? I often open my scum games by going in hard on my partners - it's a good way to look aggressive without the risk of being scumread back by that player.

Actions speak louder than words; you had the chance to vote for Lexa at a time when her lynch was viable and you didn't, despite scumreading her.

[Luca Blight]

Why should I make the point that your argument with Lexa was s/s when that was irrelevant to the evidence I provided? Your argument in itself could be s/s or s/t - it neither incriminates you nor proves your innocence.

I also remember your reason and indifferent tone to why you unvoted Lexa. You clearly didn't believe Lexa's claim and still scumread Lexa, so why not mention Lexa in or around 1274 when he was a viable lynch and under fire? If you truly didn't want a PR claim lynch you should have made that point, or if you supported a Lexa lynch you should have voted him. Instead, you completely ignored the issue and tried to divert attention onto Awoo.

[Luca Blight]

EBWOP:

1189 is the post that should have been linked.

[Luca Blight]

You don't have a leg to stand on there, Alex - if I don't switch the momentum back to Lexa in 1158 then I'm pretty sure Lexa doesn't get lynched; she was under hardly any pressure at the time, and most people agreed with leaving the pr claims for D1. You yourself had an hour before said she should be '

revisited tomorrow

' in 1153 which reflects worse on you than any of this does on me.

My L-1 vote came because Mumble's final posts actually seemed seemed pretty town (bad town, but town).

[Luca Blight]

Why should I make the point that your argument with Lexa was s/s when that was irrelevant to the evidence I provided? Your argument in itself could be s/s or s/t - it neither incriminates you nor proves your innocence.

By necessity if you're calling me scum then that argument was s/s. If, however, you think that that argument was s/t, then that would by definition make me town. I'm saying that to have a logically coherent and meaningful point as to me being scum, that argument earlier in the game must also be s/s, and thus any argument for me being scum that doesn't take that into account isn't really worth considering.

You are talking out of your rear end.

Obviously if I'm scumreading you that makes the argument with Lexa and you s/s, but why does that have to be part of my evidence against you? Why can't I make a primary point as to why you're scum without bringing up every possible reason? I haven't even started looking over that argument yet, but in of itself an argument with someone doesn't mean you can't be partners with that player. Actions speak louder than words as I said; you had a chance to vote her when her lynch was viable, and you ignored the matter completely.

I also remember your reason and indifferent tone to why you unvoted Lexa. You clearly didn't believe Lexa's claim and still scumread Lexa, so why not mention Lexa in or around 1274 when he was a viable lynch and under fire? If you truly didn't want a PR claim lynch you should have made that point, or if you supported a Lexa lynch you should have voted him. Instead, you completely ignored the issue and tried to divert attention onto Awoo.

honestly? i don't remember. i

can

tell you with confidence just based off the timing and composition that those posts were made when i was busy so i probably just noticed awoo's read on me and wanted to question that.

i think you're being massively disingenuous to say that i tried to "divert attention" onto awoo by asking him that one line question.

That's the way it seemed to me, but whether or not you were trying to divert attention, the fact remains that you ignored the whole Lexa issue which looks terrible on you now.

[Luca Blight]

The vote count was this:

Fissure (4): Luca Blight, Awoo, Lexa, Cedrick
Cedrick (4): rb, Alexcellent, Papa Zito, Mumble
Lexa (2): havingfitz, Fissure

Fitz wasn't applying any pressure, the only pressure came from Fissure who had zero credibility and was himself fighting off being lynched.

Most people seemed content to leave the pr's; hence all the unvoting following the claims.

Why is that convenient?

[Luca Blight]

I'm not ignoring anything - The argument doesn't prove your innocence, hence why I'm not letting that affect my scumread on you until I've seen something in it that suggests otherwise.

Your reasons are pretty shit to be honest and don't change anything.

[Luca Blight]

Is that more or less suspicious than NSG ignoring the Lexa issue in her 1189 and 1192 posts, despite scumreading Lexa herself?

[Luca Blight]

I guess he gets a bit of towncred due to the timing of his vote, enough to give him a pass for today anyway.

I don't really get why he specifically wanted to see if Mulch was right, though? That was a bit of a weird comment.

[Luca Blight]

So you've been townreading me all game, yet because I attacked you I'm now bottom of your scum pile along with Awoo? Brilliant.

[Luca Blight]

I might as well just come out and say this now. I am a one-shot Gunsmith and last night I used my ability on Awoo and was told he does not have a gun.

Now either he is a Mafia Doctor, which appears unlikely given there was no vig kill, or a Traitor (which I guess is possible?) or he's Town. The reason I haven't been going for him today is because he simply has less chance of being scum based on this result.

[Luca Blight]

The remaining scum are

probably

in NSG, Havo, Cedrick and Alex.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Alex

[Luca Blight]

Yeah soz PZ VOTE: Cedrick
Cedrick's ISO is a mixed bag, but given his hard defense of Lexa I think his flip will be pretty informative. And the GNR wagon just feels a little too... convenient at the moment?

VOTE: guy_named_riggs hi )

Awoo, you seemed pretty keen on Eddie's slot dying, why the change to GNR?

I don't like this post - I disagree that the GNR wagon was '

convenient

' - it was perfectly plausible at the time, and it feels like Alex wants to distance himself here from that potential mislynch, while also highlighting Awoo's part in it. I feel a townie would have been naturally more suspicious of GNR's sudden disappearance.

He scumreads Lexa but doesn't want to lynch a pr, so instead votes Cedrick because he's defending Lexa - if Cedrick flips green then that puts Lexa in a better light.

Alex seems like really careful scum - he wants to make sure all his posts can be looked back on favourably in the future.

[Luca Blight]

getting townie feelings from awoo, havo and cedrick.

I think Mumble is probs town based on the 1v1 with Lexa feeling like TvS, and I think Lexa is the scum in that interaction.

scummy feelings from Lexa and Q.

Still looking into others.

I'm like, somewhere here today

{Fissure; RB; Eddie Cane; HavingFitz}
{Luca Blight; NSG; Papa Zito}
{

Cedrick; Awoo; Havo

}

Can you explain this complete reversal?

[Luca Blight]

The flips shouldn't influence it that heavily as he was already scumreading Lexa and townreading Mumble.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Eddie Cane

[Luca Blight]

That was some fine distancing. Really thought Cane was Town.

[Luca Blight]

Hammer now imo; the longer the day goes on the more potential for wifom to cloud things.

[Luca Blight]

Got a feeling Mulch is the last scum.

[Luca Blight]

I probably want to lynch either Fissure or Zito today, but I haven't had time to fully look over things.

I agree that the vig should claim today if he's one-shot, as having a conf town among the disputed slots would be worth its weight in gold.

[Luca Blight]

That being said I think Awoo is a very strong candidate for the third mafia. I think that in these setups there are bound to be something liek a mafia doctor, and a mafia doctor fits in perfectly because we have a vig as well. So I woulden't give the gunsmith clear any weight. That's also why I think the gunsmith was left alive, because the clear means nothing.

Right, Awoo

could

be Mafia Doctor, but so could most of the players left in this game?

You seem to be scumreading him

because

he was cleared of having a gun, which is warped logic.

[Luca Blight]

I would agree with it if the vig is Ok with claiming.

[Luca Blight]

I'm just waiting for rb to chip in and see if we get a vig claim from anyone.

I would be ok with a Zito lynch.

[Luca Blight]

If you guys want to lynch me today that's fine, it'll save me the trouble of doing a ton of work on this. Please make plans for tomorrow before you do though.

What happened to your puzzle-solving enthusiasm?

[Luca Blight]

I'm at a conference. See that vla thingy? Don't tell me you missed the vla thingy.

I don't know how you kids phonepost all the time this sucks.

Yeah, I've been V/LA before but I never said

'yeah, it's fine if you lynch me, it'll save me work'

.

Presumably you'll have time to play properly at some point during this day phase, in which case you should do so. I'm not clear cut on who to lynch at all today.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE:

fissure <-- last mafia

Please unvote Fissure.

D1 vca suggests Fissure is town.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Luca Blight]

I'm not convinced; Fissure replaced into a slot which had a real chance of being lynched. I think if he is scum then pushing Lexa was the optimal move in that position; Cane was already bussing (although not in vote form at the time) and it meant whoever of them survives looks better for it. I got the feeling Lexa was basically accepting of being lynched as well - there was no fight from him to save himself. Not to mention the fact there was no guarantee Fissure's bussing of Lexa would actually see him lynched.

Perhaps enough to give Fissure the benefit of the doubt for now, but not much more than that. I was sure of Fissure being Town after the Lexa flip, but now we know how Cane played v Lexa it would not surprise me at all if the other scum bussed similarly.

[Luca Blight]

Cane came in and immediately started bussing Lexa as well...

[Luca Blight]

Yep, although I'm still open to lynching someone else if Zito can provide something decent.

[Luca Blight]

What about a replacement for rb?

[Luca Blight]

Welcome.

Are you a 1-shot Vig?

[Luca Blight]

Why are you voting me?

[Luca Blight]

Right now I think the last scum is most likely either Havo, Papa Zito or Maki. A vig claim from any of you would be greatly useful at this point.

Feeling Zito is the most likely town out of the three, but not sure why he's reluctant to claim when he suggested mass-claiming earlier. Let's not write Fissure off yet, either.

[Luca Blight]

That was correct, but I'm starting to feel he is more likely Town than a couple of others.

Think I'll be voting Maki today unless she does something decent.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Maki

[Luca Blight]

L-2

[Luca Blight]

rb was on fitz if that helps

This is a lie.

I watched Fitz last night and he was targeted by nobody.

I am a Town JOAT.

[Luca Blight]

< JOAT (watch, vig, track)

Sorry nsg...

I had a feeling this was the case.

Good game, guys.