Newbie 1676 | Hungarian Nóták | Endgame

[Smudger]

VOTE: hiplop

hi all

[Smudger]

Every time* I've played with a town Smudger, he's subbed out. He hasn't subbed out of this game. Therefore, he's scum. Easy peasy!

VOTE: Smudger

*"Every time" consists of one prior game. This line of small text is size 75, which is approved, but I wouldn't use this size for anything important.

I plan to stick around.....

[Smudger]

1) Have anyone of you played any off-site games? - a few in a private forum, even modded a couple
2)How about on-site games? If so; How Many?- I was active up until about a year or so ago, then RL had me put MS on the backburner, this is my 8th game since coming back. take a look at my wiki
3) How would you describe yourself as an individual? - angry old man... seriously I would say I am fairly balanced but have a slight aggressive nature at times
4) What do you think you will be remembered for this game? - no Idea, having fun and playing a good game hopefully
5) Why are you not scum? (:P) - I didnt get picked?
6) Favourite pizza topping? - Pepperoni
7) Favourite Movie? - dont have one to be honest
8) Favourite Song/band/music genre? - ecliptic taste not centered on one.

[Smudger]

seems every game I am in is stacked with Canadians,

[Smudger]

Hey Witch have you heard of RVS?

[Smudger]

Going VLA until Sunday

N

o

t

e

d

-

-

P

[Smudger]

hmmmmmm

[Smudger]

ok .. I have to claim..... MY GF is Canadian...... I love her......


there are too many Canadians playing MS FFS....


I'm British btw...

VOTE: Witch_Hunter

serious vote

[Smudger]

Who? MrCurlyNoodles? If you're suspicious of him, why are you voting Witch Hunter?

the Gif? its a joke linked to my Canadian jibe.....

to answer you second question. I get a feeling when I read the posts that happened before my vote from the slot that they are contrived, attempting to fit in. after all he is a self confessed noob,

If someone's serious voting on page 2, I want to know why.

who me or the other serious vote on page two?

Before you play the WIFOM card, that kind of shit is really hard to fake as scum, can backfire very easily,

can you give examples of how or where it has back fired?

We couldn't disagree more in our conclusions

who is "We"

That said, overall I like this post a lot better than the ones that piqued my interest and vote as explained above. Witch's later inputs are, and unashamedly sheeping Hiplop here, town in its feel. the fact he looked at both POVs, they make sens and then he qualified why he would think Hiplop town are sound on a first and second read through.

UNVOTE:

but his disregard of you voting him (despite it being on faulty grounds) and his quick, mostly unexplained vote change to Kim seemed a little out of place to me. Kim's logic about unexplained vote changes needing to be called out makes sense to me and applies to Belisarius as much as it did to you. So my vote stays with him for now.

have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?

[Smudger]

EBWOP

they make sen

se

[Smudger]

Shadeed's Law basis, Occam's Razor

you might want to explain those to the uninitiated... just a thought

[Smudger]

scumreads:
Bluebird (overly defensive in rvs mostly, but
Belisarius (if bluebird flips scum)
Kim (havent seen towny things, bu have seen scummy things from this slot. Not the most scummy, but is second behind bluebird)

neutral:
Mrcurlynoodles: (his post seems town, but he needs to be more active before I can for sure call him town)
hiplop: (doesent seem townie or scummy.)
Smudger: (inactive and mosty useless posts. But 64 looks towny

Townreads
witch: (I see nothing scummy and lots of town)
AzoriuSenate (He just came in, but that post looks town. I could see it coming from scum though)

wow all that from three pages....

[Smudger]

Reads right now for those viewers at home
Town
Witch
Kim
Noodles
AzoriiiousSenate

Null
Smudge
Belisarius
(Cmon SE's, get more active )

Scum
Bluebird
Some Random Mafia Player - Seriously, this is not a town mindset

my word the read lists are appearing early this season... why?

[Smudger]

Just a word, I am 4 hours ahead of GMT, and so I beleive that when most of oyu are posting I am getting drunk, making love or sleeping...... so most of my posts are reactive as opposed to proactive...

[Smudger]

so your trying to tell me I shouldent try to find scum because its "not a town mindset?"

where do I say that? I am interested to understand why you would produce a read list so early in the game and from 3 pages of interaction? in addition what is your view on the thought is some minds that early read-lists can also be detrimental to a town player?

[Smudger]

I question how read lists are bad, if we arent sharing our reads, what are we doing?

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

Also, he has 13 useless posts, he made 1 post you agree with and you call him town for the 1 post and ignore the fact he made 13 useless posts?

and you have 14 posts, point out how those posts of mine that have questions in, which Curlynoodles seems to have missed, are useless?

have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?

questions here for you curlynooodles...

What I said was note aimed at you

ok, but based on my comment and that of Azorius above do you understand why I questioned your read list. plus you seem defensive and sating a lot of "if I was scum" "is this scummy" etc... I actually find that scummy. That said you continue to make sense. and you are pushing so I lean town on you.

Your post 101 is hard to follow who you are responding to or questioning, can I ask that you do something along the lines of split each question to an individual into a separate post, and/or quote the post you are responding to then comment. or do as I have done here by linking the post. And finally you could bold the name of the person you are interacting with such as

@ Smudger

... thanks

[Smudger]

EBWOP and everyone else has responded to readlists it seems.... I must remember to complete catch up before posting....


bottom line is I don't usually post full read list until things get going in the game and there is a lot of interaction ,discussion and argument.

[Smudger]

and I would like you to explain how the second part makes any sense. When are showing your thoughts ever bad for town? if your not posting your thoughts, are we rving all day 1? I dont see it

I asked you to give us your view on the subject, now that many have responded to it do you understand what my question was about? I am not saying you should not give opinion, you are of course free to do so and should not be afraid to do so. But you might want to consider how that maybe used in game and whether or not you might want to hold back on your opinion to see how things develop.

[Smudger]

but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

how do you know who is in your team? what is scum's main aim? how do they achieve that aim?

[Smudger]

What's the argument for secrecy? How does town benefit from it?

there is no secrecy in declaring I find this person scummy or that person town, consider what I and others have no stated in thread concerning how you do this..

[Smudger]

like it's harder to change your mind once its set down in writing and not just an idea in your head.

so you cannot change your POV as the game progresses? I see what you are saying but what is this game about?

[Smudger]

Also, I am still unhappy smudge hasent really interacted with anyone. He asked me 2 questions, made a decent post, and thats kinda it. The other 13 have not been helpful. Doesn't change my stance on him much though.

you missed my post about time differences? or are you just becoming tunnel visioned because I questioned you?

[Smudger]

Smudger, why are you complaining about my readslist, but not hiplops? (No, this is not a case on hiplop, this is just pointing out faulty logic in an argument, I dont see him as scummy for a readlist since I did the same.)

ummmmmm

scumreads:
Bluebird (overly defensive in rvs mostly, but
Belisarius (if bluebird flips scum)
Kim (havent seen towny things, bu have seen scummy things from this slot. Not the most scummy, but is second behind bluebird)

neutral:
Mrcurlynoodles: (his post seems town, but he needs to be more active before I can for sure call him town)
hiplop: (doesent seem townie or scummy.)
Smudger: (inactive and mosty useless posts. But 64 looks towny

Townreads
witch: (I see nothing scummy and lots of town)
AzoriuSenate (He just came in, but that post looks town. I could see it coming from scum though)

wow all that from three pages....

Reads right now for those viewers at home
Town
Witch
Kim
Noodles
AzoriiiousSenate

Null
Smudge
Belisarius
(Cmon SE's, get more active )

Scum
Bluebird
Some Random Mafia Player - Seriously, this is not a town mindset

my word the read lists are appearing early this season... why?

[Smudger]

Thoughts on SRMP?

when I began catching up I said this

That said you continue to make sense. and you are pushing so I lean town on you.

but now as I have reached the end of my catch up and read back, its clear he is skimming and beginning to tunnel me based off of not actually reading my posts.

for example his comment about me questioning him on his read list and not you, then obviously unaware of what being +4 gmt means. the thing is all those posts were one after the other in the thread... so why he would not see them is strange, I retract the town lean on him.

[Smudger]

I did, but that still should not excuse 13 off topic posts and 2 (now more) on topic posts.

they contain questions like the ones you keep missing for example, you pick up on my quoting the read list from Hiplop and asked me why I did not question him on it. Have a look at that quote and my comment after I quote it. Do you see the word "why" followed by a "?". that's a question.

In fact the as I didn't put a "?" after my comment attached to the quote I made of your read list might point you in the direction that it was neither a complaint or a question, merely an observation, some might say a reaction test, which going by your overt defensive of a simple observation, well its a good reaction to gain. why did you think at that moment in the game you were under attack from me?

[Smudger]

oh and btw some of the posts above have questions for you to answer Random Mafia Player, so be a good chap and give me your thoughts

[Smudger]

his and the question at me earlier were what I took, the 2 posts about read lists I thought were just random comments.

really? as stated previously your reaction says otherwise

VOTE: Random Mafia Player

[Smudger]

"read lists give a lot of information. Information is a powerful town weapon, but it can potentially be subverted by scum, so it should be handled with care. How exactly to do that depends on the game-specific circumstances."?

basically what others and I have said already, and so yes I would agree....

[Smudger]

Anyway, if you know of a good article in the wiki or discussion in MD about this topic, please post it. This theory talk shouldn't derail us from what's going on right now, but it's still important.

No I dont know of any wiki page or article on this... maybe Hiplop...and agreed it should not derail us, but it does provide responses to gauge how each of us interacts and reacts to discussions and questions. Therefore we can all start to form opinions on others in the game. and develop those opinions as we move forward, would you not agree?

[Smudger]

his and the question at me earlier were what I took, the 2 posts about read lists I thought were just random comments.

really? as stated previously your reaction says otherwise

VOTE: Random Mafia Player

Your probably scum anyway, but what reaction? I'm curious

the ones you continue to make

so

my vote is good where it is...

[Smudger]

what question?

[Smudger]

ahhh that one, the one missing the "?"

lets put this into a nut shell for you. I was giving you advice on how best to communicate with regard to your posting. why would you even consider that a scum motivated post? IT IS ADVICE!

But lest look at your content so far...on the whole so far your responses are scummy. you are not consistent, you are raging and not actually saying anything that makes sense let alone points to anything of substance. you respond to an observation by saying you believed I was challenging you but then say

he 2 posts about read lists I thought were just random comments.

which is not consistent with your reaction.

then you mention scumslip and townslip in the same rant, could you please define both then show us where you saw these, explain in full how they qualify?

[Smudger]

my word SRMP are you actually reading anything. or are you skimming then reacting? read what I have asked you please and what I have said then comment. rationally and in a way that makes sense..

[Smudger]

to clarify, I mean that by "Raging" you say that my point is invalid and it was a rage post. It wasen't, and if thats all you can defend yourself with then thats a problem.

you are raging, make some sense then maybe people wont see you as scummy. re read what I have said and instead of jumping to misguided and poorly constructed conclusions open your mind to what is being said. then ask constructive questions if you don't understand, as it is clear you don't understand as you are just spamming the thread with huge wall quotes followed by one line rants that have no substance

[Smudger]

I thought that 1 specific action may have been scummy, that doesent mean I think hes scum, the reason 1 action of smudgers makes him scum is because he intentionally did something scummy to benefit himself rather then the town.

where? explain it without quoting a large wall and put down the post number only. then once you have explained it identify why it is scummy?

then go back to each and everyone of your accusations and do the same. Then maybe people might actually understand what it is you are trying to say. and then present a case that substantiates your vote. because right now you have no case

[Smudger]

SRMP is at L1

by the way so please,

do not hammer

(vote) without stating intent

[Smudger]

@ Bluebird I haven't had an argument with SRMP, he has lost his rag at me.

I asked him questions, he over reacted. I explained to him the best way he should construct posts, he stated that advice was scummy?? I then asked him to explain what a scum slip and township were as he used both in a sentence to build this rather poor case against me, he has not done that. I asked him to explain each of the accusations he has made against myself and others, he has not done that. I then asked him to reread what has been said and open his mind to what was being put forward, he has not done that.

On top of this he has referred to my quote on his read list as both a challenge and a random comment. Which I am sure you will agree is a contradiction and he has now given up, without defending himself or claiming. Which he should do at L1. L1 was removed for a short period of time which gave him the chance to respond and his only response was to ask if he could self hammer?

regardless he is not playing to the spirit of the game and if town he is not playing to his win condition or in the interests of town..

[Smudger]

SRMP played terribly, he was given the chance to try to explain himself better. It was hard trying to deal with what he was say as he went OTT with the quote Wall posts. Had he taken to time to actually answer questions posed to him instead of the reactions he gave then things may have been different. But the point that he gave up was for me the clincher. When a player gives up like that you are in two minds as to whether they are scum who cant formulate a good defense or town who are super irritated. The fact that he is a new player also compounds the issue, in my mind at least, as to which he was. I'm not happy at all with his play or the fact we lynched town because of his play, but it happened.

With regard to the question about read lists from Kim, the answer to the quoted posts are his POV with regard to the existence of read lists early in the game, and I would believe his way of putting across his POV, so no I found none of that overtly scummy. But that did not clinch it for me with regard to the topic what was a question in my mind and one that lead me to be suspicious of him was the way he reacted to my comment on read lists in a overly defensive manner. At first he misses the fact that I had in fact only question Hiplop on his read list and merely made an observation about his. He then, after seemingly upset that I had questioned him about his read list post, states that he thought it was just a random comment at the time. If he thought that why was he so defensive was the question in my mind.

I did some reading back and was interested in Bluebirds FOS/scum read on me, for obvious reasons,

@Bluebird

please state the reason for your FOS/scum read.

other things I picked up I will get to shortly and I have a fairly strong feeling for who our scum are

[Smudger]

I just reread that, sorry its early in the morning and my composition abilities seem to be sorely amiss...

[Smudger]

As I have stated earlier, I scumread you because your stats indicate that you subbed out of every game that you were town, one entry notwithstanding. Also, your conversation with SRMP was what convinced us to lynch.

do you know why I subbed out of those games? no you don't. I had a real life issue that required me to sub out of all of them at the same time, go check you will see it all happened basically on the same day.

honestly you think thats a scum read do you?

as for my conversation with SRMP, you didn't vote him, so I didn't convince you did?

[Smudger]

I am curious about why we lynched so early when we could have probably still used the rest of the day? Maybe figured out more about who's scum so we weren't starting D2 not much farther in than we started D1?

don't answer this in detail, but did you learn anything from what there was of D1? have you read back and noted anything that stood out?

[Smudger]

@ Kim,

now that SRMP has flipped town what do you think? considering you didn't consider him scum.....

and if you didn't think he was scum who did you think was scum at the time, or still think is scum? considering you did not have a vote in place and you really only voted twice, once in RVS for me and once for Hiplop?

[Smudger]

I don't really understand why you unvoted. I said I was not going to hammer until there was a claim made.

We were getting nowhere with that day so I hammered. I think it might have been less efficient to hammer that early but I don't think the time we would have used would have been productive at all,.

Which is it?

[Smudger]

Another point to be made is that they really are useless. At this point we should all have people we do and don't want to lynch today. Putting everything on the table for scum to see is unnecessary and could lead to them gaining an advantage. Plus, it's very early in the game so reads should absolutely not be set in stone.

So i've reread D1 and looking at hiplops post coming from confirmed town and I think he might have been killed because he was the only one scumreading Belisarius.

this doesn't sit right either?

[Smudger]

Hope your mum recovers quickly Kim.

[Smudger]

after my last game this one is a comparative nursing home for activity..... yawn

so to liven it up I think that scum sits somewhere here Bluebird/Kim/Azorious

[Smudger]

@

Kim

Hope your mom will get better

I'd like to ask why everyone is suspicious of me. I'm reading my name at the top of everyone's lists, but nobody's giving any reasons.

I'm still looking at Belisarius, Kim, Azorius, and Smudger. I'm completely convinced Smudger is scum, but I'm still reasoning out the others.

your whole case on me being scum is poop. did you read my response to you?

[Smudger]

I don't really understand why you unvoted. I said I was not going to hammer until there was a claim made.

We were getting nowhere with that day so I hammered. I think it might have been less efficient to hammer that early but I don't think the time we would have used would have been productive at all,.

Which is it?

He claimed vanilla town.

Another point to be made is that they really are useless. At this point we should all have people we do and don't want to lynch today. Putting everything on the table for scum to see is unnecessary and could lead to them gaining an advantage. Plus, it's very early in the game so reads should absolutely not be set in stone.

So i've reread D1 and looking at hiplops post coming from confirmed town and I think he might have been killed because he was the only one scumreading Belisarius.

this doesn't sit right either?

You townread Bel? I'd like to hear your evaluation of my logic other than "it doesn't sit right".

currently yes I do read him town, but that is not my point. My point is you state that read lists should not be set in stone, which I read to mean you don't read into the much then you vote Bel because he was on an early read list list. Is that your only case?


as for the Hammer before claim question, I retract, I didn't connect "villy" to town and it had gone from my mind...

[Smudger]

@Bluebird

what is there to reason, there is not a lot to look at, only 11 pages. are you in other games or just trying avoid conflict?

[Smudger]

some things that just don't fit, you know?

please point them out, I'm intrigued to know considering the posting has been light from that slot

[Smudger]

I'm still looking at Belisarius, Kim, Azorius, and Smudger.

this is interesting when you consider this

I'm completely convinced Smudger is scum,

if you are convinced why are you not voting for me now? and why consider me, still?

VOTE: Bluebird

[Smudger]

MrCurlyNoddles, do you ask questions?

[Smudger]

Hello........



Is it me you're looking for.......


'cause I wonder where you are




And I wonder what you do




Are you somewhere feeling lonely?



or are scum?




come on this is dire lets go guys and play the game????

[Smudger]

I've noticed you've got a second completed town game in your stats. Haven't checked it out yet, but it's making me think. I thought that since you had pulled out of all your town games except one, you are likely to be scum

OMG.. did you read this>~~~?

As I have stated earlier, I scumread you because your stats indicate that you subbed out of every game that you were town, one entry notwithstanding. Also, your conversation with SRMP was what convinced us to lynch.

do you know why I subbed out of those games? no you don't. I had a real life issue that required me to sub out of all of them at the same time, go check you will see it all happened basically on the same day.

honestly you think thats a scum read do you?

as for my conversation with SRMP, you didn't vote him, so I didn't convince you did?

[Smudger]

agreed....

[Smudger]

UNVOTE:

[Smudger]

There'll be bluebirds over..
the white cliffs of dover...
just you wait and see...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FawMg0NXpg

hung from a large tree....

[Smudger]

MrCurlyNoodles, what's your opinion about the players you didn't mention - Belisarius, Kim, Smudger? Any one particularly towny or scummy? And concerning Bluebird and AzoriusSenate, would you join a wagon on either of them right now?

MrCurlyNoddles, do you ask questions?

[Smudger]

AzoriusSenate, what's your take of the Bluebird situation?

I think this needs to go to all...

[Smudger]

Kim what would you think of two players who appear to use the same terms of phrase or mention a particular observation? Almost as if one is parroting the other?

[Smudger]

Kim what would you think of two players who appear to use the same terms of phrase or mention a particular observation? Almost as if one is parroting the other?

I found this quote on the wiki when searching to see if parroting might have a more technical Mafia definition than the normal English usage: "Parroting is not a scumtell; it's more of a 'I-just-read-the-thread-tell.'" It was on the user page of dopog, so it's not official or consensus thought or anything like that, but I think it's true. If you want something in my own words that'd be longer and harder to understand (coincidentally, that's a good reason to use other people's phrasing), I could probably oblige.

oh Ok. you never asked me why I asked that question? anyway I did because of this ....

Every time* I've played with a town Smudger, he's subbed out. He hasn't subbed out of this game. Therefore, he's scum. Easy peasy!

As I have stated earlier, I scumread you because your stats indicate that you subbed out of every game that you were town, one entry notwithstanding. Also,

your

conversation with SRMP was what convinced us to lynch.

Short version: I'm not convinced SRMP is scum.

I am not convinced SRMP is mafia

[Smudger]

If someone's serious voting on page 2, I want to know why.

who me or the other serious vote on page two?

Bluebird you never chased this, or responded to my question, why?

[Smudger]

1) Have anyone of you played any off-site games? - a few in a private forum, even modded a couple
2)How about on-site games? If so; How Many?- I was active up until about a year or so ago, then RL had me put MS on the backburner, this is my 8th game since coming back. take a look at my wiki
3) How would you describe yourself as an individual? -

angry old man... seriously I would say I am fairly balanced but have a slight aggressive nature at times

4) What do you think you will be remembered for this game? - no Idea, having fun and playing a good game hopefully
5) Why are you not scum? (:P) - I didnt get picked?
6) Favourite pizza topping? - Pepperoni
7) Favourite Movie? - dont have one to be honest
8) Favourite Song/band/music genre? - ecliptic taste not centered on one.

yes I am grumpy and Old

[Smudger]

Liking Curlynoodles right now.

Azorious what have you got to read Bel on. His posts are rather null in my mind but you sound convinced so convince us what it is you are seeing .

[Smudger]

Witch I don't think there is a Bel-Azorious scum team. Azorious' post above looks emotive and due to frustration... it doesn't yet strike me as something scum would do. Even as a bus...

[Smudger]

Interesting. Azorious you really have nothing as I read it Bel has negated your argument. So one question if Bel was not a lynch today who would it be in your opinion?

Witch I think that Scum is somewhere here Azorious/Kim/Bluebird, in no particular order I might add

[Smudger]

Bluebird who are your top three lynch candidates and why?

Kim who are your top three lynch candidates and why?


Witch as to what to do, theres not much I can do until Bluebird and Kim rejoin us. lest watch and wait.. i want to see the reaction from all three Azorious/Bluebird and Kim, to the questions I have asked them ...

[Smudger]

and my brain's still being an asshole about letting me remember what it was that made me so sure Kim's scum.

any clarity Bel?

[Smudger]

Off topic: btw I took that test I'm a "LOGISTICIAN ISTJ-T"

[Smudger]

@ Kim: Thank you for the post - seriously - but we have some miscommunication here. I meant, "would you post one of your logical analyses on this game?"
Then again, ignore it for now. I'll ask again later, when the game really gets going. Just from reading other games, I hadn't realized that takes a while to happen.

did this happen?

[Smudger]

Just reading back, I think 55 got Hiplop killed along with 58 .

Azorious did you read 58 . In particular the trust part?

[Smudger]

my links seem to be broken on the post above?

let me quote into spoilers

Post 55

Spoiler:

@

Kim

: We couldn't disagree more in our conclusions. Hiplop's my strongest townread so far. Sure, that's not very strong, more like 60%, but it's still something. So I'm wary of posts like:

I think that hiplop's actions are worthy of pressure.

Allow me to explain. Either hiplop saw Belisarius' first vote or he didn't.
If he did, and he's scum, he's accusing Belisarius on terribly shaky grounds. Even I had noticed it was odd, and it's my freaking first game!
If he did, and he's town, he's still making a weak accusation, but with some purpose. Possibly to see if scum would get on that shitty bandwagon, then call them out later.

If he didn't, he's been skim reading. I can see a veteran town player being slightly careless on day 1, especially in a newbie game. I have a hard time seeing scum-hiplop doing the same, since it's a much greater risk for him.

So, either hiplop's town, and at most guilty of not noticing one post, or he's terrible scum.

Later, the same process is at play. Belisarius changes his vote to you and hiplop does the same at once.
Town-hiplop reason: finally noticed Belisarius was actually taking part in RVS. Therefore, no more reason to suspect him for the moment. And he's also applying pressure on someone. Why not help him and get a read on this Kim guy?
Scum-hiplop reason: uh oh, my case on Belisarius just went offrails. What if he suspects me? I know, I'll sheep his vote and cunningly move attention away from me. <evil laugh>

Again, either hiplop's town or stupid. And I'd rather bet our IC is not stupid.

Post 58

Spoiler:

ok .. I have to claim..... MY GF is Canadian...... I love her......


there are too many Canadians playing MS FFS....

We're taking over.

I'm aware Belsarius voted now, I just thought he'd do more except complain about RQS. FWIW (for what its worth), initially I did miss the vote, oops. I got all excited typing my IC-post, I forgot there was game before that. Once I noticed I tried to do what I could to get something going to spur activity. When he started to do more, I moved my vote~

Belisarius and hiplop, do you think Kim was trying to buddy?

Basically, yeah. I also liked Belisarius' reaction to me, and therefore had a small degree of trust.

@

Kim

: We couldn't disagree more in our conclusions. Hiplop's my strongest townread so far. Sure, that's not very strong, more like 60%, but it's still something. So I'm wary of posts like:

I think that hiplop's actions are worthy of pressure.

So, either hiplop's town, and at most guilty of not noticing one post, or he's terrible scum.

Later, the same process is at play. Belisarius changes his vote to you and hiplop does the same at once.
Town-hiplop reason: finally noticed Belisarius was actually taking part in RVS. Therefore, no more reason to suspect him for the moment. And he's also applying pressure on someone. Why not help him and get a read on this Kim guy?
Scum-hiplop reason: uh oh, my case on Belisarius just went offrails. What if he suspects me? I know, I'll sheep his vote and cunningly move attention away from me. <evil laugh>

Again, either hiplop's town or stupid. And I'd rather bet our IC is not stupid.

WitchHunter seems town, tbh. Kim's point is the best one raised thus far, and witch was able to think from my POV quite well; in a way that would in no way benefit scum. For the most part this post makes me think he is town (and quite flattering *bats eyelashes*), but that first line I have bolded is a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle strange. Town question eachother all the time, I don't think Kim's push on me seems particularly scummy.

Before you play the WIFOM card, that kind of shit is really hard to fake as scum, can backfire very easily, and the only potential gain for scum-hiplop would be for someone to draw the same reasoning I just did. It is not reasonable to assume that scum is prescient enough to have predicted this sort of reaction, except possibly with a player they know really, really well. Given that I've been away from Mafia since the summer, I doubt even my former scumbuddies and hydra partners could forecast my thought processes so accurately.

another defense would be that actions like that are especially regarded as scummy by new players. The biggest thing new players do wrong is they forget that doing something wrong doesn't necessarily mean scum motivation. Me being a goofball and not seeing a vote is

bad

but it more comes from the fact that I am a goofball than I'm trying to assassinate y'all.

(Sidenote, I've been wrestling with how to increase activity in the game, and figured doing a bombastic push would maybe help that. It sorta worked, woo!~) Now lets get these new-newbies in here so we actually have 9 players

I think that hiplop's actions are worthy of pressure. I'm still not sure how loose/tight I should be with my vote early in day stages -- I've gotten criticism for not voting in a couple of my earlier games. Chances are that hiplop isn't scum, but I could really say the same for literally everyone at this point.

Aye, that is a interesting problem that even I struggle with. I hold my vote early game to be pretty weak, poking and prodding at things in an attempt to see varying reactions. The trick is finding balance and it does take quite a long time to figure out! (I've been playing 7 years, and still am not ideal in that regard!)

Something like this is probably what happened, but people need to be called out on changing their vote without comment. I think that not doing so makes the game too easy for scum.

Here is where I will UNVOTE: . I'm satisfied with this response. You're absolutely right.

@ hiplop, Thanks, I'll also have to check the INTP thread out

I just went looking for it and noticed it was pretty hard to find, if anyone is still interested I found it quite interesting! Here it is

Really sort of an awkward spot as we're essentially missing 1/3 of the game right now (smudge, two replacements).

None, outside of a little bit in real life I'm a complete mafia noobie so any help or advice is welcome and probably needed. I'm also new to forum type sites for the most part so any advice on how to navigate/use this site would also be great. Thanks!

I recommend you look at those guides I posted on the first page! (Little bit boring, super helpful!) I know some people find it helpful to use the "view your posts" option in the top left portion of the page (I don't), as it helps them keep track of all their games in one nice little spot. I personally think Mafsepia is much cooler than Mafblack as a theme for the site, and you can change that by going User Control Panel -> Board Preferences -> My Board Style. In fact, there are lots of interesting options in there such as Site Chat (a chatroom) etc. This is an awesome site and you guys/gals should totally explore the neat features it has. For the snazzy quotes like the ones here, if you highlight a portion of a post and then press "quote" it will automatically quote just that section, which is pretty neat. If you have any other questions, ask~

However, I am going to VOTE: mrcurlynoodles as I'm interested in your thoughts on the circumstances in this particular game. What are you feeling, currently?

Just reading back, I think 55 got Hiplop killed along with 58 .

Azorious did you read 58 . In particular the trust part?

[Smudger]

so Az if we lynch Bel and he flips scum then ok, but if he flips town what then?

[Smudger]

Interesting. Azorious you really have nothing as I read it Bel has negated your argument. So one question if Bel was not a lynch today who would it be in your opinion?

you never answered this either

[Smudger]

Just reading back, I think 55 got Hiplop killed along with 58 .

Azorious did you read 58 . In particular the trust part?

or this Az???

[Smudger]

Kim what would you think of two players who appear to use the same terms of phrase or mention a particular observation? Almost as if one is parroting the other?

I found this quote on the wiki when searching to see if parroting might have a more technical Mafia definition than the normal English usage: "Parroting is not a scumtell; it's more of a 'I-just-read-the-thread-tell.'" It was on the user page of dopog, so it's not official or consensus thought or anything like that, but I think it's true. If you want something in my own words that'd be longer and harder to understand (coincidentally, that's a good reason to use other people's phrasing), I could probably oblige.

oh Ok. you never asked me why I asked that question? anyway I did because of this ....

Every time* I've played with a town Smudger, he's subbed out. He hasn't subbed out of this game. Therefore, he's scum. Easy peasy!

As I have stated earlier, I scumread you because your stats indicate that you subbed out of every game that you were town, one entry notwithstanding. Also,

your

conversation with SRMP was what convinced us to lynch.

Short version: I'm not convinced SRMP is scum.

I am not convinced SRMP is mafia

Kim any response to this?

[Smudger]

As far as other lynch candidates if Bel was dead, I'm looking at Witch and I'm looking at Smudger.

I retract ......you did.

[Smudger]

#348 in response to my #345

[Smudger]

you know what... I'm going to do this

VOTE: Belisarius

[Smudger]

@ Smudger

: What's with the change of mind? Is there a method to AzoriusSenate's madness after all, or do you just want to see where this goes?

I think we should go with it

[Smudger]

I was anticipating being all but confirmed town, so I'll need a little time to figure out how best to act. (Also, I'll need sleep, which I'll try to get after this post.)[/quote]

how? its clear and was clear to me what Azorious was after his post that promoted me to go with his case on Bel, its clear from his statement here

As far as other lynch candidates if Bel was dead, I'm looking at Witch and I'm looking at Smudger.

That he was either the cop or tracker and had something on Bel.

so your thought process is a little lacking in its completion.

plus this

I'm a VT.

Scumteam stands as Kim and Bluebird. Curly's play today is town.

does not exonerate you in my mind


VOTE: Kim

[Smudger]

need to correct that the tags are wrong

Azorius was a

tracker

? I was like 99% sure he was a cop who investigated me, got a Town result, and switched from me to Bel based on Bel's case on me. That was all I could think of that explained both his Day 1 and Day 2 posts.

how? its clear and was clear to me what Azorious was after his post that promoted me to go with his case on Bel, its clear from his statement here

As far as other lynch candidates if Bel was dead, I'm looking at Witch and I'm looking at Smudger.

That he was either the cop or tracker and had something on Bel.

so your thought process is a little lacking in its completion.

plus this

I'm a VT.

Scumteam stands as Kim and Bluebird. Curly's play today is town.

does not exonerate you in my mind


VOTE: Kim

[/quote]

[Smudger]

So i've reread D1 and looking at hiplops post coming from confirmed town and I think he might have been killed because he was the only one scumreading Belisarius.

this also would, in hindsight, direct you to think what? Its clear to me it directed Az to look at Bel N1... he didn't change his view on Kim at all, he just focused on Bel probably because Bel was tracked to Hiplops door by Az.

so for me today its Kim...

[Smudger]

thats a good question Curly and its all to do with perception of how things have transpired. I really didn't have much of a case on Kim other than gut and possibly a subconscious lean based on my misguided belief that Bel was town, until of course I grabbed hold of what Az was in fact saying end of D2.

so let us go back in time, after the RVS D1 the first vote Bel threw out was on Kim and he in fact stated it was serious vote, remember this?

Spoiler:

Bel (can I call you Bel?) shouldn't need my help defending himself

No, I don't

UNVOTE: bluebird

VOTE: Kim

Serious vote.

now commonly scum will attempt to distance themselves from each other early in a game, and Bel is an experienced player, so when I put all the pieces together this begins to stand out. You could argue it was just a vote but then this sticks out. Its Bels reason to vote Kim,

Spoiler:

I'm not voting Kim for white knighting, per se. I'm voting him for saying that he thought something might come from hiplop's vote on me, while trying to interfere with it by pooh-poohing it.

I'm also not happy about Kim pointing out "factually incorrect grounds", but that's mainly because I wanted to see how long it would take hiplop to realise it on his own.

it's pretty weak

and then this, this is a post to throw us all off Kim,

Spoiler:

I'm not getting a Kim lynch today, am I?

I find the Smudger/SRMP interaction intriguing, but I'm not prepared to commit a vote at this time.

I'd like to hear more from Azorious and Noodles. You two are big fat question marks for me, and that makes me nervous.

now you remember the line about there was something about Kim that made Bel think he was scum, but he couldn't put his finger on it? he stated it early D1 then again here

Spoiler:

FMPOV, nothing has changed since Yesterday. I can't pull any useful information from the SRMP lynch since it was basically unanimous.

I still want to lynch either Kim or Bluebird, and my brain's still being an asshole about letting me remember what it was that made me so sure Kim's scum.

well I pushed him on it and he still couldn't remember, do you know what I now think the answer to that question from Bel was? (if you cant I will get back to it later).

anyway, there was something else about Kim that bugged me and it was to do with his view on SRMP. he didn't vote SRMP and even stated that he felt he was town, now why would that be a scum tell. Well, Kim has a few games under his belt and I think he realizes the value as scum to throw people off his scent by scoring town points. whats the best way of doing that? Stating someone who is town, because as Scum you would know that, is town even when their play is scummy and erratic enough to have the majority of players voting them, in fact he didnt even have a vote in place at the time, I questioned him on it, here

Spoiler:

@ Kim,

now that SRMP has flipped town what do you think? considering you didn't consider him scum.....

and if you didn't think he was scum who did you think was scum at the time, or still think is scum? considering you did not have a vote in place and you really only voted twice, once in RVS for me and once for Hiplop?

look at his votes he has stayed away from the main candidates and has voted town players, Hiplop who is dead and me, yes I am town and yes I know you have no way of knowing that, but I am. His argument may well be that he hammered Bel, so? thats called a bus and he did it to attempt to ensure his survival today. he never even questioned me as to why he just went ahead and hammered.

then there is this from AzoriusSenate

Spoiler:

(I get pulled away from the computer often when I'm at work. I started this post before Belisarius' 181, but it's likely moot now.)

But just from reading the thread when he arrived, he must have noticed that's not the way we're playing. It could be culture shock, but even if this explains his posts' disorganization, I don't think it also explains his inconsistent, defensive playstyle.

Agreed with the last part -- the defensiveness seems more like a newbie thing, but if he's* got experience in chat mafia, it doesn't seem like that would be an issue.

*Is SRMP a "he"? I might have overlooked where they said that; anyway, I'm going to assume they are for the rest of this post, at any rate.

However, it's possible that he's just trying to play in the way that seems natural to him. I know some people have viewed my posts as too calculated and viewed that as scummy in pretty much every game I've played so far.

What I got from the SRMP-Smudger fight boils down to "Smudger pressures SRMP to get a reaction, SRMP freaks and makes a very unconvincing case on Smudger". Not damning by itself, but part of an overall behavior that is, at least, anti-town.

I need to start hydra-ing so I can talk with other people about stuff like that. For now, suffice it to say that I disagree with some of that.

While Bluebird and AzoriuSenate don't show up: let's suppose you stay unconvinced. Who do you want lynched today? Belisarius (who isn't convinced either) wants either you or Bluebird. What do you suggest?

I will say that SMRP is the scummiest player to me, but I'd only put the probability that he's scum at around 40 or 45 percent. I guess that's about 20 or 27 on your scum meter. If Plotinus secretly PM'd me and said SMRP was town, I'm not sure where my vote would go. Assuming nothing else of note happened until the deadline (

at which time I'll be unavailable, BTW

), I'd be okay with voting for whichever null player has the most votes -- I would try to be as open as possible about the fact that that was what I was doing, so hopefully I wouldn't be viewed as scummy for doing so.

@AzoriusSenate

: Are you really going to FOS me for not being convinced a theoretical town!SRMP is scum? That seems backwards. I'd assume you would FOS me (or worse) if he flipped scum, so you could save some time and just FOS me now if 188 is accurate. (I'm leaving out the case where we don't lynch SMRP, but I don't see that happening now.)

The reason I would FOS you if he flips town is very simple and i'm starting to fos you more for not really thinking about it. More than likely SMRP is going to be lynched today so at this point it would be a good time for scum to "townread" SMRP if he actually is town. This gives scum towncred when he flips town. I don't think an actual townie would speak up to randomly defend someone who is likely to be lynched unless they are CERTAIN they are town.

and that brings us full circle to this

Spoiler:

I'm a VT.

Scumteam stands as Kim and Bluebird. Curly's play today is town.

what do you get when reading this? bearing in mind everything else I have outlined? and then of course there is his opening post here D3

Spoiler:

Azorius was a

tracker

? I was like 99% sure he was a cop who investigated me, got a Town result, and switched from me to Bel based on Bel's case on me. That was all I could think of that explained both his Day 1 and Day 2 posts.

I was anticipating being all but confirmed town, so I'll need a little time to figure out how best to act. (Also, I'll need sleep, which I'll try to get after this post.)

that just screams scum

Oh and unless you haven't figured out this

Spoiler:

There's also something else right on the tip of my tongue, but I've been trying to draw it out for days and it's being a stubborn git.

It's because they share day talk

[Smudger]

Azorius was trying not draw attention to the fact he was the tracker and I would put it down the fact he was not sure that the Doctor is in the game, which I will come back to. Trouble is when he made the post that opened my eyes to why he was pushing Bel's lynch it was seen by Bel. So Bel's last action in the scum thread was probably to leave instructions on killing Az.

It is always a challenge in this setup to claim, in particular D1 when you, as a cop or tracker, have information that will secure a scum lynch but don't know if there is a doctor in the game etc.

So Az played how he felt best and it may well be down to his experience that he seemed "lunatic" as you put it, but remember of course that I suggested it as "frustrated town" when we discussed this D2. The thing is Az ensured the lynch and put us in a better position. Do not forget that he wanted to obviously follow you or I, and I can see why.

now if there is a Doc in the game, and please if there is do not out!! its a pity that Az was missed by "you".. but its all to do with learning and if there is one, next time look for things that point you in the direction of other PRs, basically what are called crumbs, and judge your night actions on those.

[Smudger]

sheesh

EBWOP

D1 should read D2

[Smudger]

P-edit: Smudger, you seem to be against a doctor coming out. What about a 1SBP?

what good is there for a doc to out now? I don't see any reason for Doc to out, why would you want him to out?

But in the context of my thoughts on Az the subject of a doctor is relevant a 1SBP is not..... are you claiming that role?

[Smudger]

t the end of D1, AS wanted me lynched and presumably had a "heavy FOS" on me. He never mentioned me on D2 until 320, "I'd like to add that [Belisarius'] interaction with Kim leads me to believe Kim is pretty solid town." That switch with no in-depth explanation plus his PR claim (of sorts) led me to think he had gotten a town read on me and was just being aggressive against Bel. Obviously, he didn't and wasn't.

already discounted this, he had a real confirmed target, Bel... you remained his FOS unless of course you can point to where he dropped that FOS on you

[Smudger]

sorry pushed send before finishing typing

[Smudger]

that is as he was mislead by his findings, I remain convinced that what I state in my post 369 remains extant, Bel was distancing from you hard

[Smudger]

based on the lack of protection of some pretty obvious targets. Why shouldn't we get them to claim to get a confirmed town?

which obvious targets this does not make sense

[Smudger]

If we have a doctor they should not out and continue to protect who they feel is town if we go into another night, but thats not going to be required, the game will end today with a town win.

[Smudger]

I am done for the day as it is 1945hrs here and I have things to do tonight. Kim is todays lynch. I will try to check back here when I can tonight...

[Smudger]

lynch Kim please

[Smudger]

no seriously lynch Kim.. now

[Smudger]

please just lynch Kim, stop pussy footing around and lynch him..

[Smudger]

@ Bluebird:

Sorry about that. I thought it was the right thing to do, and it had nothing to do with neglecting your participation in the game.

On topic: What do you think about what's going on today?

@ Kim:

If you believed Azorius had townread you, instead of scumreading Belisarius, why did you join yesterday's wagon?

why are you asking these questions?

[Smudger]

.... why is Kim still alive?......

[Smudger]

really/ LYNCH

[Smudger]

come on .... I want to sit back and relax...

[Smudger]

Kim. All parts create the whole, the interconnecting pieces I have highlighted complete the case on you. Your rebuttals don't convince me you are town at all. You have already claimed so it's up to bluebird or curly to hammer

[Smudger]

Kim in your post 402 you basically claim... you state you are not any PR then you state you are town. If that is not a claim, what is?

[Smudger]

Kim. I know you said you will neither confirm or deny. This meant to me that you were claiming VT and that's how I read your post. As the last scum that's what is the best fake claim for the last scum to make in a game where you are unsure of what they remaining town PR is.

Curly as for hammering. Hold let's get Bluebirds take on it....

[Smudger]

Sorry my grammar is poor there .... but I think you get what I am saying

[Smudger]

Kim. Because you are the last scum.

Therefore your aim is to stay alive

To do that you have to claim then convince everyone you are not scum

The claim has to be believable

Thus it would be suicidal for the last scum. One who has a case against him which makes sense. To claim anything other that VT. Especially in an open game.

Thus you make a statement such as you did, which is in fact another attempt to look town by stating "I will neither confirm or deny". I read between the lines, you were lining up a VT claim. So don't try to say you were not, you were, because you did.

Does anyone believe Bluebird us actually going to play? Honestly if I did not feel strongly about Kim being scum, Bluebird's game to date is completely useless and deserves to be lynched. Bluebird please don't take this personally but you are not playing very well at all.

[Smudger]

I will re read again I have been very busy and on my phone posting these last few days so I'm not getting things straight in my head For now

UNVOTE:

[Smudger]

Give me 24hrs

[Smudger]

OK now reading through as I want to be sure my case has foundation and as a lot has now appeared in thread I need to address it. As I stated for the last few days I have been phone posting and therefore reading has been a challenge. I also want to apologize for drunk posting. the series of posts where I continually state "Lynch Kim" or words to that effect I was drunk. Its not acceptable to do that in these games and I will not do it again.

anyway moving on:

Spoiler:

MCN and WH are both town reads, so let's see where this goes." *votes for Bel*

WH is a town read... noted

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

Witch_Hunter didn't seem to share your view that Bel's post threw everyone else off of me. His next post had a p-edit directed at Bel asking him to explain his desire to lynch me. Bel's next post had him right back on my wagon:

Yes WH questioned Bel, and Bel made a statement regarding his potential vote on you straight after, as he continually did up until he was lynched. But my statement is that the post by Bel "was designed to throw us off of the weak case he had on you". The way it was perceived by those in the game at the time it was posted is another matter, the fact someone questioned him, well it was going to happen, he then responded as he did. What if he had just changed his POV on being questioned, it would have generated more questions would it not? why would he continually point to you as scum, Ok you maybe town but you could also equally be scum, my case surrounds the premise that the collection of points I highlighted leads me to believe I have scum, you.

You see my case is the general strategy being employed, be it direct or indirect by Bel. In my mind he was attempting to discard you as he did not want too much attention on his buddy, But he also wanted to hide you should he get lynched, which is what happened, that's the point I am trying to make.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

(I moved the answer up here.) As a whole, I obviously can't say why Bel posted what he did. I will say that it doesn't fit the distancing I've seen in my other newbie games.

That post has irked me all game. its the strangest thing I have seen to date in a game of Mafia, and the more I ponder it the more I return to Occam's Razor, remember that Bel himself said as much. The Simplest answer must be the truth, and to me the simplest answer is, because he shared day-talk with you, ergo you are scum.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

You did ask me. I had already answered in post 189, as you quote below. Is there some better way for me to answer if Player X directly asks me if I think Player Y is scum, assuming that I don't think Y is scum?

I think you miss my point here. Your voting history is pretty patchy to say the least, you voted as I have highlighted and yet its more to do with your POV on SRMP. this is where I see an issue. As I stated I feel your motives at the time for that post was to acquire Town-cred based off the back of not voting for a player you knew was town. You may point at the fact that others were not voting for him and that BlueBird had made a similar statement, but it goes back to the collective facts not this fact in isolation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

1) I didn't hammer Bel. That was WH.
2) I didn't question you because I was able to figure out that you thought AS had a good reason for voting for Bel. (I didn't think about exactly what your reason was, though. That could have saved me all this typing.)

yes you are right and I retract the comment concerning the hammer, but that does not take away from my thoughts the fact that you did not even question me, you just went ahead and did it. But as a footnote I see your explanation regarding why and I can see some merit in it. however, I have looked at the other games you have been in. In one of them you hammered for the lose. But before you hammered you were making sure that it was the right choice you were asking questions and interacting with the other players, you even asked for time to consider the move. You were town in that game and a lot more involved than you have been here, your questions are more indepth and seem to be well thought out. I don't get the same feel here, it may wel be confirmation bias, but not with everything else I have considered.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

He might still think I was suspicious for what I did -- he never replied to my second response -- but he did also say I'm behind you and WH in his lynch list in 337.

that wasn't his lynch list, thats was his soft claim, that made me lynch Bel......

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

1) If he were town,

he's shown that he's smart enough to realize that Bel and his scumbuddy would have already had their great farewell discussion in daytalk (or maybe a soliloquy from Bel, depending on if the other person was around at the time) before Bel claimed.

That early hammer deprived us of getting reactions from MCN and Blue. It was scum-motivated.

you do realise you are parroting me? I said that

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

He really really wanted us to know that WH and Smudger were unimpeachably town. Why would he do that? I think Smudger's early support of what AS was doing practically clears him; that leaves WH

this has merit with regard to WH, and yes I had considered the probability that WH is a very smart player and is pulling the wool over our eyes, if he is he has played extremely well and needs recognition for it. But I don't think so I don't seen anything that rings alarm bells. I see Bel trying to ensure that the two of the strongest town players stay off his scent. You must consider that at the time in the game he did not know which power roles were in town's possession, he just had an idea based on the scum roles he obviously knew. therefore he wanted to keep us sweet, and he did right up to AS starting the wagon on him and AS's claim.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

How did you interpret the fact that I would neither confirm nor deny VT? Also, I've already said that a fake PR claim by scum toDay would be a guaranteed loss once the real PR counterclaims, regardless of whether the scum guess the role we actually have correctly.

Yes, but it remains extant, you have confirmed you know the best course of action as scum in this type of game is not to CC if caught out but claim VT. I read between the lines, it was clear to me what you were saying in that post.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

WH said in 389 that Smudger's 353 was what convinced him to vote for Bel. WH also says that he reread AS and the latest posts. I guess it's possible that WH had other things to do that, along with the rereading, kept him from voting before he did, but WH posted something in this thread between 07:06 and 11:58 nine out of the 13 prior weekdays, including on both Mondays.

this is your case on WH, site mechanics?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and now I have caught up.

I see that Kim has woken up and posted more but I remain unconvinced.


I still believe Kim is the last Scum, he is currently at L2.

I intend to vote for him later today

Fixed quote tags. -m

[Smudger]

Plot can you please fix the tags inside those spoilers? I have no Idea what happened ... many thanks

[Smudger]

Fixed quote tags. -m

Thanks Marquis

[Smudger]

Spoiler:

The absence of any Halifax bands on Kim's list offends me.

1. why is Bel so fixated on Kim, even with one of his first posts?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

4) Logical posts that lead to a mislynch.

Isn't that

precisely

what scum would say? "Look, I may look really scummy, but I'm a townie. No, really!"
It could be just your personality, but it sounds suspicious.

5. I'm always scum, even when I'm town. That much hasn't changed

For the same reasons above, I don't like this much either.

2. is this the earliest catch of the game?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler:

Welcome, new people!

While I'm up (most of the time I can sleep through my phone vibrating when it gets this thread's subscription email, but not tonight, apparently)...

UNVOTE: hiplop for the reasons mentioned by Belisarius, Witch_Doctor, and him. Nobody else seems worthy of a vote at this hour.

EBWOP (edit by way of post): "deserves," not "seems worthy of."

why Kim did you think it necessary to change your wording?

[Smudger]

Sorry for this wall of text I'm sure once I start posting more/get used to this format and how to quote things my posts will either be shorter or snazzier. But those are my thoughts for now.

do you think you achieved this?

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my quoting is going astray, my post above, the quote is of something MCN posted?

PEdit _ ahhh its because I quoted from a quote of Hiplop...

it should be this one

Sorry for this wall of text I'm sure once I start posting more/get used to this format and how to quote things my posts will either be shorter or snazzier. But those are my thoughts for now.

[Smudger]

I have a question for everyone,

what is your take on MCN?

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I intend to vote for him later today

retracting this for now...... if you missed it please look at my post 447

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I'm not willing to vote Bluebird today, I want to wait until I get answers from everyone on my question about MCN. I will though be mightily pissed if Bluebird continues to lurk and Kim, you need to get back in here and play thank you.

WH you seem to be a little perplexed?

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Bluebird there were three players not mentioned in that post? what relevance is it that WH was not mentioned.

you of course know that Post is full of WIFOM and the actual meaning of it is clearly a debatable subject considering who are listed and what it may or may not tell us?

[Smudger]

ok, MrCurlyNoodles to me can be summarized up as:

nice long posts full of agreeable content, which on the whole gives me and probably everyone else a lovely warm feeling of a nice townie type person. I even said so myself here:

Spoiler:

Liking Curlynoodles right now.

So while I was waiting for Kim to come back and respond, which he has done in a way that makes me feel he has given up, I went and had a read, you can see some of the things I picked up on here

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

The absence of any Halifax bands on Kim's list offends me.

1. why is Bel so fixated on Kim, even with one of his first posts?

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4) Logical posts that lead to a mislynch.

Isn't that

precisely

what scum would say? "Look, I may look really scummy, but I'm a townie. No, really!"
It could be just your personality, but it sounds suspicious.

5. I'm always scum, even when I'm town. That much hasn't changed

For the same reasons above, I don't like this much either.

2. is this the earliest catch of the game?

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Welcome, new people!

While I'm up (most of the time I can sleep through my phone vibrating when it gets this thread's subscription email, but not tonight, apparently)...

UNVOTE: hiplop for the reasons mentioned by Belisarius, Witch_Doctor, and him. Nobody else seems worthy of a vote at this hour.

EBWOP (edit by way of post): "deserves," not "seems worthy of."

why Kim did you think it necessary to change your wording?

would love some response to that btw.

Anyway

I started to notice a few things in MCNs ISO. for example as I have already said he seems very agreeable, yes on occasion he pushes from time to time, but not too much, not enough to bring him to the attention of all. Then there was something that I totally forgot about because of the SRMP D1 wagon and eventual lynch. you may recall this post:

Spoiler:

However, I am going to VOTE: mrcurlynoodles as I'm interested in your thoughts on the circumstances in this particular game. What are you feeling, currently?

Thanks for the advice about the quote thing this is pretty cool. And I actually did read/partially skim the guide and abbreviation page you posted and they were super helpful! The abbreviation page is probably the only way I'm still following along

Sorry for not posting that much I've been kind of busy but mostly I just haven't really known what to say. I think the whole discussion between Kim and Witch_Hunter seems like two people looking a little too much into things/reacting very strongly to each other but Kim's defensiveness is a little sketchy, though not sketchy enough for me to think he's scum. Also (thanks to the guide you posted) I realize that if he is town he should probably be just as defensive and his logic, for the most part, seemed fairly sound. Witch_Hunter's logic also seemed fairly rational, though perhaps a tad overzealous, and I found myself more on his side in terms of whether or not what you've done so far has been scummy (which your most recent post also helped with). Honestly even in real life I find it hard to judge anyone so early in the game (which I guess is the point of this RVS) but thanks to the discussion so far I feel as if you, Witch_Hunter and Kim are the most towny, though not enough for me to think any of you are confirmed town.

Out of the people who are actually talking so far the person that feels the scummiest is Belisarius and that's still only like 2% scum. At first I voted him as a joke because he said he was always scum, even when he was town (I'm not sure how to quote more things after having already quoted something without quoting the whole post), but his disregard of you voting him (despite it being on faulty grounds) and his quick, mostly unexplained vote change to Kim seemed a little out of place to me. Kim's logic about unexplained vote changes needing to be called out makes sense to me and applies to Belisarius as much as it did to you. So my vote stays with him for now.

Sorry for this wall of text I'm sure once I start posting more/get used to this format and how to quote things my posts will either be shorter or snazzier. But those are my thoughts for now.

and my question, based off the back of his comments on Belisarius

Spoiler:

have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?

well I was going to pursue his answer a little more but didn't, its here (you may recall I had to prod him to answer)

Spoiler:

Sorry I totally meant to respond to these and then got sidetracked by the new players and then the whole read list discussion. I didn't question him, which was probably a mistake, but too late now. Mostly it was just a gut reaction to his first couple posts, as I've said before. I feel like the fact that it was a more serious accusation when we were still in RVS meant it warranted a response, even if said accusation was on faulty grounds. And then changing from his initial slight scum read on bluebird (the one you are all jumping on now) to Kim for no explained reason also feels wrong. No solid ground had been laid for Kim to be scum at the time, it was just a random vote, which then deferred the attention from Belisarius and Bluebird (the two people with actual scum accusations at the time) to Kim. While this may have actually been the right play since Bluebird has been mostly silent since then, to me it felt a little scummy. That being said, since then Belisarius has been fairly town all around since (though I still have my suspicions) and scummier acting players have come up, I let it drop.

The thing is it doesn't sit right with me and thats why I withdrew my intent to vote Kim. Well not so much that in isolation but the fact that he is agreeable and interacting without actually pushing people then there is this:

he was under suspicion on a few occasions

Spoiler:

This is a good, well thought out post. I still have some minor reservations on this slot overall, in particular the awkward read on Belisarius.

and

Spoiler:

I agree that no real town play is happening from Bel and that everyone is, and would be, still reevaluating their reads, as they should be; but my/our point about hiplop changing his read was less about him actually changing his read and more about why he changed his read. He realized he didn't have any evidence. His original point about Bel not RVSing was inaccurate as he did actually vote, hiplop just missed it, and realizing this he retracted his vote and moved on to greener pastures. This doesn't mean Bel isn't scum, he very well could be, but it's why we're all discounting your argument a bit and finding you scummy for pushing it so much. Even in this latest post you're pushing us very hard to vote for him without any real evidence and relying on an argument that was dropped for a solid reason. It's how much you're pushing that's scummy to me.

That being said

@Belisarius

any response to any of this?

That's a whole load of BS. Everyone knows that scumgame revolves around LURKING. I don't care if you write this off as WIFOM but everyone knows that if I'm mafia I'm dumb to tunnel on someone. This is a legitimate scumread and it isn't based on hiplop alone! It's based on my reads of that situation AND my reads on today. You're really pushing the narrative that my FOS on Bel is somehow unfounded and are discrediting it. At least, that's how I'm reading into this situation.

then there is my observation here,

Spoiler:

MrCurlyNoddles, do you ask questions?

which was written because, as I now recall, at the time it struck me he doesn't ask questions

The thing is he seems to avoid getting too caught up with Bel, maybe its just me. The times he has been pushed have been with regard to his indirect interaction or indeed lack of interaction with Bel. Then theres the end of D2, please go and look and let me know what you think? But then this

Spoiler:

That being said @Belisarius any response to any of this?

why is that important, well I can see why it might be by reading forward from that post. Therefore looking back it could possibly be ventured that Bel was not talking to Curly in Daytalk and Curly was trying to reach out to see if he was at least reading the thread?

then there's the defense:

Spoiler:

Let me make something very clear guys. The lynch IS going to be Bel today. Whether you guys accept that now is on you. If you accept it now it's going to be a lot easier on you later.

What is this?

As far as other lynch candidates if Bel was dead, I'm looking at Witch and I'm looking at Smudger.

What is THIS?

Now I'm even more confused. I absolutely saw the potential in Bel to be scum and Azorius to just be angry town, though I wasn't convinced it was true, but what is this^^^? I can't decide whether to just be astonished or amazed at the audacity/arrogance in that first statement or a little peeved or laughing or what. That's a lot of certainty that we're gonna vote for someone with no backing so far. And more than that what's your case on Witch of all people? Smudger many people have tried (and mostly failed) to make cases against, but no one in the game has thrown an actual accusation at Witch. If you have one I'd love to hear it but I'm honestly completely baffled that it's even in your mind.

"it's going to be easier on you later" what does that even meeeeaaaan?

I'm sorry this post is so rambly and not well put together but I'm literally that guy in the mind blown gif right now. If you have some legit arguments please tell us. Idk if this even changes my opinion on you. I'm just confused. You confuse me

now I was going to point out that he did not have a vote on Bel D2 for the lynch, but to be fair the wagon did not get going until after he had last posted in thread D2.

So my thought and confusion now is that its either Kim or MCN, I think its MCN. but like I said go have a read give me your thoughts, in particular his D3 openner....

[Smudger]

here is an interesting fact, the second highest number of posts in this game is by a player who was lynched D1..... SRMP.

[Smudger]

lol that should read third.. not second

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It's not Bluebird, its between Kim and Curly

[Smudger]

How do you know I live in a Library?

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Moral of the story is I don't see it. 1) you're argument has no grounds besides you being suspicious about liking people and 2) if I was scum I could've had the easiest game and I didn't take it. If you have any other questions throw them my way.

thank you, I wanted to gauge reactions to my thoughts so I could either include or secluded you from them, your response seems balanced and I accept it, plus of course this good point here:

Counterargument about Noodles: if he's scum, why didn't he lynch Kim earlier when he had the chance?

very good catch, missed that...unless scum was already there of course


[/quote]

[Smudger]

VOTE: Kim

[Smudger]

L1

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secluded

that should read exclude..... soz.. unless you want to be private and sheltered?

[Smudger]

Hey Kim. I'm about to start drinking as I am out with friends. So before I do Start I will say my gut and head tell me it's you. I am not changing my vote if I'm wrong then my head then says Blue, my gut then says MCN... And that little voice that sometimes haunts me keeps whispering it could be WH.... So that's where I am at..., you are scum my case is good. I will not be posting again until my A M which is in about 12 hours

[Smudger]

I am not changing my vote

[Smudger]

Well played Witch Hunter, you had me fooled until my read back the night you killed me, when alarm bells did begin to chime a little, but all too late. I really liked your play style it suited this game very well. You did make a few mistakes which the other more experienced players picked up on in the dead thread, so you should go read them. I will openly admitted I had you pegged as town early in the game. however I was always wondering thus my post about that voice that kept saying WH.. maybe I will listen to it more next time.

Noodles, you had a great game too, you really did explain yourself well and I had you pegged as town after your defence of my case against you, well played and bad luck on the end game, but good luck in your future games.

BlueBird you played ok, but you need to be more assertive. I know its not easy and you are looking at the experienced players to guide you, but remember they may actually be playing against you, please don't take to heart my comments in game about your play, and I apologise if it was too strong. Its a frustrating game and generally when someone is not playing well others push the slot to see what falls out and also who else attacks on the back of the push.

Bel, Azor and Kim, thanks for the game guys, looking forward to playing with or against you all again in the future....

SRMP sorry for D1, but you really confused me and your posting style and way of responding was not helping me see the wood for the trees.

Plotinus thank you for hosting a great game and see you around soon I hope, Marquis, thanks for backing Plot up.

ok I will go read the Mafia Thread etc...

[Smudger]

Thank you, and playing with you was a good learning experience -you're a capable town leader, and freaking EXCELLENT at pushing people.

... well thanks I try...