Blitz 12: Double Trouble! (Game Over)

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie

Because I am a non-conformist.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger, while I appreciate it that you are correctly townreading me, it seems a bit too early to throw around so many reads. What makes you think all these people are town?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Firebringer sure is popular. What is going on? Some people seem to know him from other games. Apparently they are afraid to be tricked again. So it seems that they are voting for him "just in case", if they are town. If Firebringer is town, then it is possible that scum are using his rudeness against him. Rude townies make good scapegoats.

Or Firebringer is experienced scum, and knows that being rude means getting voted for early, and then hopes for a sucker like me to question the votes, leading to Firebringer being townread.

[AlwaysInnocent]

It's a little early for all that wine, isn't it AI?

Ranger, can you tell me about your town read on Dwlee?

It is never too early for wine.

Anyway, I am just wondering what is up with all the votes on Firebringer.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Excuse me, she* instead of he, and her* instead of his.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I know that people sometimes have weak reasons to have some ill-informed opinion about someone during this stage, but it seems like he is just throwing around reads for the sake of appearing town. He has not even explained

any

of these reads, as far as I can see.

I am compelled to leave my non-conformist identity behind and join the Ranger wagon.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Im reading things but dont frel like phoneposting. Give me about an hour or so.
PC, i think this behavior is null for ranger, ive seen her make full reads in rvs before.

When town? Which game was that? Is this your meta-read on her?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I did not notice that Ranger was a woman. Since I cannot edit my posts, read "he" as "she" and "him" as "her" when it is about Ranger.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I am currently reading this game, where Ranger was town. Her behavior was somewhat different, though. It seems that she was less inclined to randomly "townread" people without explanation. Not that it tells us that much, since meta-reads are unreliable, but still.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger seems very town Imo. Much like Sudioken and not blitz.

Be bop. Phantom. FB. Always Innocent is my scum pool atm.

Why do you think Ranger is town? You have played with her before, so you must have a meta-read on her or something.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I am currently reading this game, where Ranger was town. Her behavior was somewhat different, though. It seems that she was less inclined to randomly "townread" people without explanation. Not that it tells us that much, since meta-reads are unreliable, but still.

Ranger seems very town Imo. Much like Sudioken and not blitz.

Be bop. Phantom. FB. Always Innocent is my scum pool atm.

Why do you think Ranger is town? You have played with her before, so you must have a meta-read on her or something.

You say meta is shit. Conclude my read must be solely meta.

No comment.

Nope. Those posts are strong town.

Why is throwing around reads without explanation strongly town?

Definitely on the right track with my pool.

Care to address the other reads? Why didn't you ask me my thoughts on you?

You have five people on your list, of which I am one. Why should I be interested in your specific reason for scumreading me? I am more interested in your reason for townreading Ranger, while other people are scumreading her (or at least being suspicious of her).

But you are free to explain why you are scumreading me. You might as well explain the others too.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I know that people sometimes have weak reasons to have some ill-informed opinion about someone during this stage, but it seems like he is just throwing around reads for the sake of appearing town. He has not even explained

any

of these reads, as far as I can see.

I am compelled to leave my non-conformist identity behind and join the Ranger wagon.

She does that. I don't like it and will continue to point it out. Reads don't do much for the rest of us without explanation. But, I have seen her do this as town.

I have read few of her games now (skimmed through it). It was not exhaustive, so I could be missing something, but in the games I have read, she starts out differently. Now she seems to be doing it for the show. So I would nullify the meta-read and instead focus on her throwing around reads without explanation.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Especially the townreading of random people seems odd. I

know

that I am town, but I have not said or done anything yet that could lead to a reliable townread. In fact, some people seem to be suspicious of me, so why does she townread me?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger, while I appreciate it that you are correctly townreading me, it seems a bit too early to throw around so many reads. What makes you think all these people are town?

"Correctly townreading me"
Ugh.

It is probably annoying, since you cannot verify this (yet). But it is the truth. And it matters, because other people are incorrectly scumreading me.

I try and detach myself from meta. What Im saying is having confident early reads is part of ranger's playstyle and should go either town or scum.
I think.

But that

is

meta-reading her.

AlwaysInnocent, do you have anything to add other than asking people to explain their reads? Your questions have a trend of really weakly contributing. Im fine with my vote.

This will get better as the game progresses. It is better than throwing around reads without explanation. You cannot even respond to them properly.

Honestly, I would not consider other people's contributions to be that much better, or "stronger".

[AlwaysInnocent]

I know that people sometimes have weak reasons to have some ill-informed opinion about someone during this stage, but it seems like he is just throwing around reads for the sake of appearing town. He has not even explained

any

of these reads, as far as I can see.

I am compelled to leave my non-conformist identity behind and join the Ranger wagon.

This post is awkward as shit. You suddenly start talking in very distant language. Some people. They. Pings hard.

This is how you scumread people? You must be kidding, right? Or are you intentionally trying to make me look suspicious, setting me up?

If you want to know, I usually talk in a distant language. I do not see how I "changed" that. In addition, I do not see how that post is overly "distant" as to be noteworthy in any way.

Why are you so defensive about Ranger anyway? Are you deflecting?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Word choice is how I start. Second, the word choice in that post is very different than others you have. You use a lot of I and specific names. That post is vague as fuck.

Also, town blocking is good.

How is it vague? The only possibly "distant" part is:

"I know that people sometimes have weak reasons to have some ill-informed opinion about someone during this stage."

This is a general statement. As someone who values generality, I tend to speak in general statements. So when something applies to many people, I say "people". But in order to account for the fact that it does not occur all the time, I say "sometimes" (although I should have said "often" instead, which would have been more accurate). Or is it vague because I may have preferred to leave out "ill-informed", since this could be considered redundant (weak reasons lead to ill-informed opinions)?

Town blocking is good, if you have a good reason to believe that someone is town. You have so far not explained why you think Ranger is town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why are you not similarly attacking my push on you, innocent?
Squirrelly, just because i say im not confident in fire being town doesnt mean i have a scumread. Again, even if i had a weak scumread, i would vote.

You will get your turn. I cannot handle everyone at the same time. But you probably already knew that.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Anyway,

VOTE: Errantparabola

For being sneaky and trying to push a lynch on me (even implicitly inviting Titus to do so), then asking me why I am not immediately responding to him when I have my hands full on Titus, as if he did not know.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@AI, It's good enough for me.

If you're so convinced Ranger is scum, why aren't you voting him?

You said she was strongly town. I thought she was suspicious and openly considered voting for her (I explained why). It seems you are more confident about her alignment than me, so why are you not explaining why you are townreading her?

"Some people", "sometimes" "they". When you provide no reference, it's vague and distancy. :p moon logic ftw

Do you really think that is a scumtell? I think strategies are far more telling.

What do you mean by providing no reference? I thought it was clear that this referred to early-D1.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Anyway,

VOTE: Errantparabola

For being sneaky and trying to push a lynch on me (even implicitly inviting Titus to do so), then asking me why I am not immediately responding to him when I have my hands full on Titus, as if he did not know.

How am i sneakily trying to push a lynch on you?
Im pretty blatantly trying to do it. Because i think you are scum.

Ah. And you are sure that you are not going to regret this lynch, if you are town? It makes little sense to push for a lynch that is so ill-informed, so I am starting to think you are scum.

And i find it odd that i pushed on you first, and then you waited for titus to post a case on you, which you responded to. Like you're picking and choosing what to respond to.

Because she included me on her list of suspects before you pushed for me, and insisted that I questioned her about that, and, more importantly, because we were arguing about Ranger. I still have no answer from Titus about Ranger. Apparently she knows something that others do not, and refuses to share this.

I am indeed picking and choosing what I respond to, since I cannot reply to everyone at the same time with the same amount of focus. I am easily distracted. Like I said, you will get your turn. If you are town, please

honestly

consider that I am limiting my focus. This will tell you absolutely nothing about my alignment. You will find this out eventually.

Now, let me focus on your other posts before you start complaining that I am answering this, but not the other posts.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ah. And you are sure that you are not going to regret this lynch, if you are town? It makes little sense to push for a lynch that is so ill-informed, so I am starting to think you are scum.

You're starting to think I'm scum? And this is after you voted for me?

My vote on you is because I am suspicious of you. Because of the way you are acting towards me, I am becoming more confident that you are scum. That is what I was trying to say. Please don't play this semantics game. It is especially foolish if you are town. You should know better than that.

I have a policy to vote for suspicious players, but not actively push for their lynches until I think they are scum (yes, I actually make a distinction). When I say I am starting to think you are scum, I am saying that I am becoming more confident in my belief that you are scum to the point of actually just assuming you are scum, instead of just considering you suspicious (and voting for you, because there is no-one else that is more suspicious). At that point I will actively push for your lynch.

But I see that you have a desire to twist my words. If you are actually town, then you are suffering from a heavy confirmation bias. You should know whether this applies to you. I am starting to think that it does not, but at least I am considering the possibility that I could be wrong. You see, I do

not

want to push for your lynch in the case that you are town. I want to be confident enough of you being scum (rather than scummy or suspicious).

Fine

Titus actively trying to interact with squirrelly is towny and reads like trying to form town block, only townread at the moment.

Okay.

Anyway:

Especially the townreading of random people seems odd. I

know

that I am town, but I have not said or done anything yet that could lead to a reliable townread. In fact, some people seem to be suspicious of me, so why does she townread me?

Titus you say you have AI as a scumread. How opposed are you to voting here?

How is this not a sneaky request to call for a vote on me? You are not even asking her to vote for me, you are asking

how opposed she is

to voting for me.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also, i dont see anything explicitly wrong with semantics?
It generates discussion and reads?

Semantics in combination with heavy confirmation bias is dangerous, since you are likely to interpret utterances in favor of your bias, when these utterances often have little to do with someone's alignment. I suppose semantics are not necessarily useless, but great care should be taken when trying to use them to "read" someone. In a way, it is true that I used semantics to establish that your push on me was sneaky, since you pushed for my lynch initially in a disguised way, which was picked up as intended. Only when I called you out on it, did you say that you were actively pushing for my lynch. Now, of course, I could have been getting that all wrong, but it is reason for me to suspect you. Then you continued to harass me for very minor stuff, like not responding to your every post and the semantics of saying "I am starting to think you are scum" after I had voted for you, which really made it seem as if you were trying to set me up (without really wanting to

sincerely

read my alignment).

And not everything that generates discussion necessarily leads to better reads. Sometimes it causes more chaos, more derailment, which makes reading people more difficult.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yakko? What happened to you? I remember you being much more aggressive in other games.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Well, Dwlee, the majority of your posts are indeed troll posts. So how about you start being serious? The time is right.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yakko? What happened to you? I remember you being much more aggressive in other games.

Huh? We only played like in one game together.

Still. You seem so passive.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Because every post is either not serious, laughing at others or just saying crazy stuff.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What about this game? Blitz #5 Why are you not so passionate here as you were back then, Yakko?

Not saying it is a meta-read, but I am questioning the relative lack of dedication from Yakko. This is also one of the games I checked to see how Ranger plays (however, instead of meta-reading her, I used it to nullify meta-reads on her).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Because every post is either not serious, laughing at others or just saying crazy stuff.

I think you might be embellishing a scoch. Is he town or scum because of it?

More importantly: that he should play more seriously, so that we can get a proper read on him.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Omfg I typed a super big post on my phone and then it just deleted it.

We can totally verify that (not).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Because every post is either not serious, laughing at others or just saying crazy stuff.

I think you might be embellishing a scoch. Is he town or scum because of it?

More importantly: that he should play more seriously, so that we can get a proper read on him.

Mist importantly is he town or scum because of it?

We cannot really know until he stops playing as such, so the other becomes more important.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What about this game? Blitz #5 Why are you not so passionate here as you were back then, Yakko?

Not saying it is a meta-read, but I am questioning the relative lack of dedication from Yakko. This is also one of the games I checked to see how Ranger plays (however, instead of meta-reading her, I used it to nullify meta-reads on her).

I think I sound the same? I'm not seeing what you're seeing bro. I'm biased though.

You seem to post much less frequently now, which makes it hard to get a read on you.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You have offered him no incentive to do so. Next time just call him scum and see if he knocks it off.

I did not call him scum. Why should I be offering him an incentive to post more seriously? If he is town, then he should play more seriously, since this is necessitated by the town's win condition. This should be his primary incentive.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@Squirrely can you show me one of my posts that look like I'm faking town?

156

You throw in a green and a couple reds, but who do you follow up with? Titus, who is scum reading you. You're not after scum, you're trying to protect your own hide.

I'm scum reading you, Dom, and Ranger. How is that not scumhunting?

Scumhunting is more about the process than having a list of scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@Squirrely can you show me one of my posts that look like I'm faking town?

156

You throw in a green and a couple reds, but who do you follow up with? Titus, who is scum reading you. You're not after scum, you're trying to protect your own hide.

I'm scum reading you, Dom, and Ranger. How is that not scumhunting?

Scumhunting is more about the process than having a list of scum.

Did you read my wall?

Does not matter, since you used the fact that you have a list of scum to "prove" that you were scumhunting, rather than the work you have supposedly done while scumhunting. You should have used that instead.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So you are voting Dom because he is like "fuck all". This is what you call scumhunting? Your wall of text is more of a hard-to-read list referring to some random posts with some very subjective remarks. It hardly explains anything at all. Not a word about Dom either.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What do people think about TheDominator (ISO)? While I have my doubts about Phantom, I sort of get why he would vote TheDominator. TheDominator's posting behavior is just... odd. Even weirder than Dwlee's posting behavior.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What do people think about TheDominator (ISO)? While I have my doubts about Phantom, I sort of get why he would vote TheDominator. TheDominator's posting behavior is just... odd.

Even weirder than Dwlee's posting behavior.

What is that supposed to mean?

You're just not serious. Can you please be more serious?

[AlwaysInnocent]

What do people think about TheDominator (ISO)? While I have my doubts about Phantom, I sort of get why he would vote TheDominator. TheDominator's posting behavior is just... odd.

Even weirder than Dwlee's posting behavior.

What is that supposed to mean?

You're just not serious. Can you please be more serious?

Personality is not alignment indicative unless different than normal.

Vote Phantom please.

So you are pushing me to vote for Phantom? I have been reading his ISO, but I cannot really tell if he is scum or not. Why should I vote for him? Unless you think I am wrong about Errant too.

[AlwaysInnocent]

BTW. You are right that personality is not alignment indicative, but it would help me to read Dwlee if he would be more serious.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Fine, Titus. But you better have a good case. I am starting to think you are town, but I am well aware that you are quite capable of deceiving people, so I will still be keeping an eye on you. I will be voting for PhantomCobalt for now.

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

[AlwaysInnocent]

Fine, Titus. But you better have a good case. I am starting to think you are town, but I am well aware that you are quite capable of deceiving people, so I will still be keeping an eye on you. I will be voting for PhantomCobalt for now.

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

So how familiar are you with me? I don't recall playing with you. Why are you fear mongerring me and going along in the same post?

Not very. I have been reading some games and "complaints" by people. It is just a general impression.

I am not fearmongering, but given that you are a capable player, we should keep an eye on you nonetheless.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Normally phantom isn't this active.

And I get more serious as the game goes on.

What do you mean by normally? When Phantom is town?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Which games?

I have not remembered them, unfortunately. It is not that important. I would have had that impression of you anyway.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Normally phantom isn't this active.

And I get more serious as the game goes on.

What do you mean by normally? When Phantom is town?

im normally less fucked up, im currently wasted on pain meds

Please don't say that. It is emotional blackmail.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Sorry to say it, and I certainly do not mean any offense, but it seems so easy to say. You do not seem fucked up at all, by the way.

Even if you are being truthful, to other people it sounds something like:

This night a burglar came into our house and stole our cute adorable puppies. Now my children (who are very young) have been crying non-stop since this morning. This is why I am acting all stressed and scummy. So please don't vote for me. Think about the puppies. You don't hate puppies, do you?

Now I feel kind of sorry for voting for you, even though you might as well be scum. I certainly do not want to hold you responsible for what you say you do while on meds, but at the same time people cannot ignore it either, if they think it is a scumtell. So, yeah, I am somewhat conflicted now.

[AlwaysInnocent]

UNVOTE: PhantomCobalt

I do not trust Wanderer-nl. I might re-vote, but I want to see the other voters first.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Dear all.

I will be less active in the coming days (but not V/LA). I really need to do some work that I have been endlessly procrastinating. I am in deep shit if I don't do this (I probably already am). So you will at least know why I am posting less than usual. If everything goes well, I will be active as usual at the end of this weekend. I will try to keep up, though. So maybe you won't even notice.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: wanderer-nl

I

might

respond to your wall later.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Alright then.

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

L-1

[AlwaysInnocent]

No. The vote count was at 6. 9 needed to lynch. Firebringer voted +1, bringing it at 7. My vote brings it at 8. The difference is 1, i.e., L-1.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Pisskop, the vote count is 8, not 7.

You are welcome to post your own vote count for me if you feel this one is wrong, however

I will refer you to Rule 6 of post 1. Please quote the appropriate posts for me in a pm if you disagree.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Somehow I missed #115.

Ranger scum doesn't take strong positions.

Is that all? I wouldn't say that throwing around random reads without explanation is anything like taking a strong position. It is easy to distance yourself from your early-D1 reads:

"It was just a hunch."
"We have more information now."
"I was just checking how people would respond."

[AlwaysInnocent]

Never mind. I was wrong about the vote count. It is indeed L-2. I did not take into account that Titus changed her vote after that, and then voted back to Phantom.

Sorry about that.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Hey guys I actually don't have any time to post this weekend but I will on Monday. Can someone give me a quick recap? Has anyone claimed yet?

Farside Always Innocent and I are confirmed town.

VOTE: Wanderer

You are confirmed town? I guess I missed something.

1. You pushed the lynch on Phantom.
2. You thought Ranger was strongly town, when she didn't do anything but throwing around random reads apparently for the sake of appearing town.
3. You were attacking me because I criticized Ranger, and then even went as far as to attack me on my use of language, as if that is somehow indicative of my alignment.

If you somehow had a very good reason to believe Ranger was town at that point, like if you were Masons, then she would have returned the favor. Instead, she thought you could be scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So squirrely are you still going to call me a liar on jailing you?

Hm. Ok then. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming that your PR claim is truthful.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So, could you explain why you were townreading Ranger, when she scumread you?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Anyway.

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

For lurking.

Might change my vote to Wanderer later, but I do not feel like joining another wagon too soon, given that it ended up being a mislynch last time. I don't trust her, though.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Having re-read some of Wanderer's posts, it seems indeed likely that she is scum. However, the fact that Albert B. is lurking should not be forgotten.

UNVOTE: Albert B.

VOTE: Wanderer-nl

[AlwaysInnocent]

Read List D2 V1

Squirrelly

: seems genuine and actively scumhunting

Ranger

: throws around random reads, without explanation, and then disappeared

Yakko

: might be deflecting from Wanderer if he is her scum buddy

Firebringer

: lurking

Flubbernugget

: null

Titus

: PR claim + specific claim to have jailed Squirrelly

Errantparabola

: seemed like he was actively scumhunting after all, so leans town

AlwaysInnocent

: very smart guy, obviously town

Albert B. Rampage

: heavily lurking

ZZZX

: null (lurking? dunno)

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie

: apparently PR claim (need to read more to be sure)

wanderer-nl

: attacks me for no reason, writes a hard-to-read wall of comments and keeps going with it, even though she was proven wrong about Phantom

TheDominator37

: lurking?

Texcat

: no particular reason to suspect her yet, so null

Note that I have 6 people as scum. This does not seem unlikely to be true. It is a multi-ball game after all, and in these games the

scum : town ratio

is higher than usual (4:16).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Sorry, I meant the usual ratio is 4:12 (with a total of 16 players).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why Errant?

[AlwaysInnocent]

B's question dodge in 409 is ew.

Squirly not catching on to Titus's claim comes off as playing dumb

Bebop:

I still have squirrely as town stronger than anyone else in this thread.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Bebop is pretty much confirmed town (or else he is in some deep shit later because scum gambits are generally sub-optimal).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Considering this game is multiball (I missed where that came from but it's being stated and unchallenged so I'm going with it) Titus's play right out of the gate makes sense. I missed the crumb as well so I'm not huge on saying Titus fakeclaimed rn.

VOTE: Yakko

The discussion between the two was right to the point. It wasn't ate Laden and pedantic like most 1v1 is. Waffling on it comes off as scum fearing a potential for two conftown and not knowing what to do with it.

Yes. Multi-ball is confirmed by the mod (see rules).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Flubber, why not Wanderer?

[AlwaysInnocent]

The case against

Wanderer

Did my first read-through (implying there will be another.. There will be but later, not this phase anymore)
Early townreads on

Squirrelly

and

Yakko

, scumleans on

Always

and

Dom

. I agree Dom is an easy target so with this many people around I'm ok to give him the blind eye for now.
My biggest scumread right now is

Phantom

. The reasons have already been mentioned, he seems to be more focussed on defending himself than actually scumhunting. For some players that actually can be a way to find scum, because the only alignment you can (usually and as town mostly) be sure of is your own, and having others explain their scumreads on you while you are town (or vice versa in multiball) can actually help one find out how full of bleep someone is. But he also started that bw on Firebringer while the guy hadn't even posted yet, and that's fine because those early wagons can be a nest of good info. Except Phantom didn't do anything with it. He didn't comment on anyone who voted, his reads that came after the wagon were nowhere based on the wagon he started except maybe his scumread on Firebringer, which he already seems to have forgotten about (which could be due to the meds @Phantom: maybe some clarity in how the meds affected your play would help us read you if it's not too forward for me to ask this.)

Imagine a vote on Phantom here. I'm going to bed soon and will actually put the format down after I wake up.

This was still on D1, when the wagon on Phantom was just starting to roll.

She was basically lurking until that point. Then she suddenly came up with that post, with really little evidence. But it gives the impression that she is actively scumhunting. Why was she townreading Yakko? Or Squirrelly? On what basis? Yakko hardly posted anything until that point. It just seems so random. Why was she scumreading me and Dom? Not sure, but what she says about Dom is telling: she admitted that Dom was an easy target and that she was OK with giving him a blind eye. Weird. Why was he an easy target anyway? He was not really a target at all at that point. It almost seems like she is accusing and defending him at the same time.

The reasons she gave for

Phantom

, who we know was a VT, were weak.

Then she came up with this "analysis" of my posts on D1 (my replies are in bold):

As promised, AlwaysInnocent:
81 'correctly townreading me' rubs me the wrong way.

Annoying perhaps, but not alignment indicative.

82 and 84 feel like he's trying to find out if it's a good idea to jump the wagon, but if he really wanted to find out the motivations behind the votes on Firebringer he could have directed his questions more directly instead of keeping it general. I'm hoping that thing about the wine was just a joke (in that case, I agree)
The next posts don't really look bad to me, he seems to be really trying to find out Ranger's motivation.

So she thinks I was being too general with my questioning of the Firebringer wagon. Entirely meaningless. It makes sense to ask general questions when you are not sure who to ask specifically. And yes, I was trying to find out Ranger's motivation, but she didn't give any.

117 the way he calls himself town in this one doesn't feel nearly as bad as 81,

I am town, though.

127 but I get annoyed at the reminders to it. And if people are incorrectly scumreading you it's your job to do something about that.

Unless it is their own fault for (deliberately?) misinterpreting my posts.

145 this vote comes so out of nowhere for me. His posts after this vote make it clear to me that it's OMGUS.

In a way, it was an OMGUS, with the emphasis on what I perceived as a sneaky push for my lynch. With Titus' nagging going on at the same time, I felt that I was being set up.

197 I think Always completely missed Yakko's point here and for me that indicates that he's not looking at this game with a town mindset.

I think you and Yakko were both missing my point. Anyway, missing a point is not necessarily alignment indicative.

208 Another point that flew right past Always.

Or not. And yet, my hypothetical incapability to grasp points is not alignment indicative. You are just trying to make your post longer, expecting that no-one will look too deeply into it.

Always vs Phantom is SvS from different teams.

Considering that he flipped town, we are both on the same team. I cannot say the same thing about you.

234 Or maybe not?

Maybe.

251 So he's not town now then? I get what you mean, it's just that it sounds so much like you know he's not town. A townie would ask 'as either alignment?' imo.

No, it does not sound like that all. It seems as if you are deliberately misinterpreting every post that I make.

257 This post screams wondering to get off his buddies wagon after that AtE Phantom made.

I was actually making a case against AtE.

263 But then I somehow came up with a scummy enough post for him to be able to unvote, ugh. Also wants to wait for the others first, how about making up your own mind instead? You might be waiting around for scum :/

You are making it seem as if "waiting for other voters" and "making up your own mind" are somehow mutually exclusive. I do make up my own mind, although I will always be influenced by other players, either directly (because of arguments/appeals/etc.) or indirectly (because of their actions). This is not a game that you play solo.

304 And here he's less active, ok stuff happens I don't blame you for that. It's just that it's so convenient to not be around for deadline while your buddy is being lynched and you just found an acceptable reason to unvote.

I cannot be active all the time. A really shitty reason to make me look bad, considering that I am more active than most players.

So, if we had more time I'd have voted here but I'm just as good with a Phantom-lynch.

Which we know was a mislynch. My lynch would be a mislynch as well. Voting for me at this stage is equivalent to scumclaiming.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also 2 scum reads and even with PC town she still going after the same person, please, she's scum and should be lynched

And

this

.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Odd kill. Hmmm

Why?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yakko might very well be scum, but he is harder to read, so I would not prioritize him over Wanderer.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Expressing "surprise" at NKs is often a scumtell, especially when it is completely without substance. Ending your sentence with "hmm" makes it seem like you are deeply thinking about it, but in the end you say nothing worthwhile. Phantom was right to suspect you.

So

TheDominator

becomes red.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Read List D2 V2

Squirrelly

: seems genuine and actively scumhunting

Ranger

: throws around random reads, without explanation, and then disappears

Yakko

: might be deflecting from Wanderer

Firebringer

: lurking, but the early wagon on her does speak in her favor, so null for now

Flubbernugget

: dunno, hard to read this guy

Titus

: PR claim + specific claim to have jailed Squirrelly

Errantparabola

: seems like he was actively scumhunting (when looking back at it now), so fence town

AlwaysInnocent

: very smart guy, obviously town

Albert B. Rampage

: heavily lurking

ZZZX

: does not contribute anything; semi-lurking

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie

: PR claim + claim to have used power

wanderer-nl

: attacks me for no reason, writes a hard-to-read wall of comments and keeps going with it, even though she was proven wrong about Phantom

TheDominator37

: weird start, lurking, and expresses "surprise" at an "odd NK" without saying anything relevant or backing it up

Texcat

: nothing interesting so far, so I am placing her at fence town for now

[AlwaysInnocent]

After having re-read Ranger's posts, I am making

Ranger

red as well. I still do not know why

Titus

townreads her. An explanation would be nice.

Titus's posting just seems calculated. It feels like how she would go about hunting scum in a multiball game when being scum herself: manipulative and controlled, easily compromising and changing, lacking in stubbornness because stubbornness draws attention to yourself and drawing attention to yourself when scum in multiball is suicide.

Dominator's posting simply hasn't bothered me at all, which instantly puts him above half the players in the game. I'd have to get back to you on what specifically I actually liked, I just remember reading what Dominator said and thinking, "This doesn't look like scum."

I don't like this post at all. If something seems calculated, it is this post by Ranger. Furthermore, without an explanation, any defense of TheDominator is just not credible.

Wasnt that a huge tell we missed in blitz one that scum was hard defending each other?

Actually, we soft-distanced from each other for the majority of the game. It wasn't until the last two day phases post-mason-claim that we got all buddy-buddy.

Dwlee is doing a lot of joking even past the rvs stage while throwing shade at errant.

And that's part of the reason I have the townread.

Titus continues to send off many alarm bells on page six. I may explain after getting caught up. (Probably not, bit busy tonight.)

Always Innocent is much stronger town by now, naturally.

Ranger's now disappeared.

I post once a day.
Sometimes twice. (More if I'm obsessing over a game, but average of 1/2 times a day.)

That's not disappearing, that's called

having life

.

PC is still scum, btw.

Townreading me again, without explaining why.

Then insisting on

Phantom

being scum, and acting all-defensive when her post behavior gets analyzed by him.

@Ranger this have to be weak reads right? We just got of RVS.

Nope, except for those that were. (I noted the weak and strong ones.)

People on this site have

no

clue how obvious they make their alignments in the RVS.

How accurate do these reads end up being? How often do they change?

About 66% (may be dwindling down to 50% slowly), and not very often.

What makes you think all these people are town?

Because I'm pretty sure, even in THIS game, there are more town than scum. (I see at absolute most, six scum possible.)

Ranger, can you tell me about your town read on Dwlee?

Dwlee's posting was very, very strongly town scumhunting naturally rather than scum awkwardly scumhunting. (This is multiball, so everyone can legitimately scumhunt a little, but town scumhunt blindly and scum scumhunt strategically; Dwlee is the former.)

Sure would be nice to have reasons.

Reasons are a luxury, not a necessity.

She does that. I don't like it and will continue to point it out. Reads don't do much for the rest of us without explanation. But, I have seen her do this as town.

Ah. Didn't know you were a hydra. This explains things.

VOTE: BeBop.

"Reasons are luxury, not a necessity."

Well, I think the opposite is more likely to be true: providing lists of reads is a luxury; reasons are a necessity.

Then there is the vote on

Bebop

, who is practically confirmed town.

{Dwlee, AlwaysInnocent}
{Yakko, Dominator}
{Errant, Firebringer, Flubbernugget, Squirrelly}
{gimick, ZZZX}
{texcat, Wanderer}
{Titus, Bebop}
{Phantom Cobalt}
For clarity: this is Wanderer and Phantom Cobalt moving down, not tecat/Titus/Bebop moving up.

She had

Dwlee

at the top of her townreads with me. It would make sense if Ranger killed Dwlee with her faction. Indeed, not very odd at all.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So, as far as I am concerned,

Wanderer

,

Ranger

and

TheDominator

are practically confirmed scum. We also need to keep an eye on

Albert B.

,

Yakko

, and

ZZZX

. Finally, we should not forget about

Firebringer

and

Flubber

.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If we can combine our efforts, I am sure we can crack this puzzle. It is highly likely that some revisions are necessary, but if we can keep this up, we

can

win. Town I mean.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger being scum in Hardcore mafia means that Ranger isn't necessarily town for any of her early game strong positions
I think Titus early townread ranger due to something of that sort?

Anyway, I'm gonna grab some lunch. Gimme like, idk, 20 minutes?

Very interested to hear your other thoughts.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why not Flubber, Yakko?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh, sorry, you meant Flubber's vote on you. Is that really so impressive?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I was commenting on the fact that he might be scum.

Why might Flubber be scum? I have a null read on him atm.

[AlwaysInnocent]

UNVOTE: Wanderer

VOTE: Ranger

Anyone opposed to voting Ranger?

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI, where are you getting the whole Bebop pr claim?

Hang on.

AI, I'll respond to your question with: are you opposed to voting flubber?

For now, yes. Since I have a null read on him, there are 6 people that I find more suspicious (three likely scum and three scum leaning). But you are free to convince me to vote for Flubber.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Also, Squirrelly, Titus isn't scum.

Also, Squirrelly, Titus isn't scum.

I can't imagine this is town Titus.
No way. That women knows I don't fake claim early as scum.

That's a claim from me. Not a read.

This is an implicit PR claim. It probably means that Bebop is a cop.

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI never mind. found it.

I could've seen Titus and Ranger as a team, especially with the Dwlee kill.
But the jailkeeper reaction on D2 start confirms titus as town?

I voted you because you needed resolution and the facts needed to come out.

That doesn't imply a town read at all or even hey maybe I protected a town read.
It's you pushing it as stopping a scum kill when I'm not scum.

I lost my townread on you when we lynched town.

Titus, can you explain this?

Squirrelly, can you explain why you said Titus is lying scum but you were voting wanderer?

I feel behind.

Forget about Squirrelly for now. Focus on other people. I suspected Titus, too. You cannot vote for everyone at the same time, heh.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What are your reasons, Errant?

[AlwaysInnocent]

If Bebop is scum gambiting, I agree with you, AI, on that being really suboptimal. But the claim seems so off to me.

On Ranger:
1. Titus townreads Ranger.
2. Dwlee kill.
3. Early play similar to Hardcore Mafia play.
4. Attitude is of faux confidence, i feel

1. Yeah, I find that strange, too. Since Ranger did not return the favor. It seems unlikely that Titus would fakeclaim this early, however. If she did, then she will be screwed in the endgame.
2. What about it?
3. Hardcore Mafia? I do not know what you are talking about.
4. Agreed.

[AlwaysInnocent]

2. Oh, right. The same thing I said about Ranger. Never mind.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I am inclined to believe Titus for now, but there is just one thing that keeps bugging me: her early and highly confident (and uncalled for) townread of Ranger. This conflicts with my belief that Ranger is scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

"Reasons are luxury, not a necessity."

And this is one of the statements from ranger that I don't like.
The whole faux-confidence thing.

Ranger

likes to throw around lists of reads without explanation, it seems. Even as scum. This does not surprise me at all.

This makes me more confident that you are town. Thanks for the info.

Errant

becomes green instead of light-green. What an honor! No, but our clash before seems genuine (two townies suspecting each other), now that we are talking like this.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yakko also moves from being

orange

to being

red

. Now I may have to introduce a hierarchy within the red zone to differentiate between likely scum candidates.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger or Wanderer is fine. For now.

[AlwaysInnocent]

And please at least do

some

reading. Walls aren't necessarily indicative of good play, but we should step away from the one-liners whenever possible. At least make some contributions that aren't one-liners. Besides, it makes it a lot easier to read people.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger, you don't get to metaread yourself, as that is entirely meaningless. I merely used your scum game to demonstrate that this should not lead to a town read. I don't care much about meta. It is too manipulable and encourages bad play for town (to appear town in another game when scum). I look at the game at hand. If you are playing scummy, then I will call you out on it. Your highly defensive attitude is telling.

Your list of reads is also wrong. Yakko should not be at the top.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I tend to agree with Errant here. Why is he your primary suspect and not someone more obviously scummy. Obviously you cannot suspect yourself, so why not Wanderer instead?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger, you don't get to metaread yourself, as that is entirely meaningless.

Exactly my point? Errantparabola asked me to metaread myself, but the task is impossible.

Obviously.

This is not even remotely highly defensive?

The only things I have been defensive about are pet peeves of mine: lists instead of reasons being called scummy (not),

But they are. Especially so early on D1. It simply does not seem genuine. No experienced townie would think it makes sense to compile a list that quickly. You know you are going to have to revise it anyway, which you seem to be hesitant about, even though a lot has happened in the meantime.

"inactivity" being "called out" (I'm not inactive), and similar BS.

Forgive me for luring you out.

Quite explicitly I'm not defending myself against many of the points I actually could be defending myself from.

So you mean you are only defending yourself against things you cannot defend yourself from, but not the things you should be defending yourself from?

Because the game of mafia would not be even remotely challenging if all the "obviously scummy" players were actually scum? You're looking at things awfully superficially. Surface-level scumhunting is something I haven't done in four years. I focus on motivations behind posting. And through it, "obviously scummy" players are very rarely actually obviously scummy.

You don't think I look for motivations? This is why reasons are a necessity, not a luxury. If I cannot see any reasons, I am going to assume you don't have any. Without reasons, it is harder to read your motivation. This is why I am pressuring you to give your reasons, since you will be helping town if you do.

Wanderer is, explicitly, a scumread, just not as strong one as Errant.

So explain why.

I'd switch to there if I didn't feel like pursuing Errant (there's a nice wagon), but I do.

Okay. Go ahead. If you have reasons, you can pursue him.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Are town villager and town citizen different somehow? *Is confused*

Hello scumslip.

VOTE: Bebop.

You call my analysis superficial, but calling this a scumslip is even worse.

[AlwaysInnocent]

you may not have explicitly painted my listing as a scum indicator, but you implicitly were, running contrary to the proof it's null.

There is no proof that it is a null-read. Meta-reads are manipulable and therefore inherently unreliable.

If we look at the game at hand (and ignoring your meta, which is the rational thing to do), we can see someone throwing around random reads in a situation that does not allow for these reads (not in a meaningful sense for the town anyway). You refused to explain your reads. You even called reasons a luxury, which they are not from the town POV.

Then you only slightly revise these reads to accommodate for new information. It seems as if your list of reads serves primarily as an overview for yourself so you can appear relatively consistent to the town. However, as we know, being overly consistent is a scumtell. It suggests that there is a

hidden agenda

that must be executed. Belief revision is necessary for the town to win. Therefore rational town players will revise their beliefs all the time. I assume that you are rational, therefore you are most likely scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Sorry, didn't know it had been so long already. Had a weird weekend, just got home from work and reading up.

I feel scum would be aware of this being multiball by now so Dom's 524 feels like a towntell. It does very much annoy me though because this has already been discussed. Twice. (iirc)

@Errant: I sort of hid why I was townreading Yakko in my case on Always. I liked the points he was trying to make and besides that it's mostly gut. And I trust my gut.

I missed where Always became conftown, if someone could point that out to me I may be willing to adjust my read and vote.
I also don't see why I should reconsider a scumread I had for the most part individually and when someone else flipped town, especially in a multiball. Always was an equal, if not stronger, scumread of mine than Phantom was, Phantom just happened to have the bigger wagon and I didn't want to risk a no-lynch. I sometimes forget this is Blitz and a rl day left in the phase is relatively a lot more here than a game with 2 week phases.

I followed the Titus vs Squirrelly and while I think Titus was aggressive by voting so soon I do believe her thoughts and attack came from a town mindset. Squirrelly has dropped from townread to townlean by their reaction to Titus.

I'll do a more thorough reread when I wake up.

Wanderer too has strange interactions with Yakko and Dom.

I just thought that Dwlee came out really scummy d1 and didn't make sense that the Mafia would kill him.

According to Wanderer, this is a towntell. I don't know why, though. Being "surprised" at a NK is more of a scumtell.

Yakko is town and so is Dominator; Wanderer

may

be scum.

Post #77. Consider how early this is in the game. It is not just that Wanderer

may

be scum, it is that Wanderer

is

scum. Again, what's up with Yakko and Dom?

One of the first people to suspect Ranger was Phantom. It is most likely no coincidence that both Ranger and Wanderer jumped on that wagon.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: bebop

How do you know he is gonna flip town?

Since this is multi-ball, being scum doesn't mean that you know that someone is going to flip town. It may very well be scum from another faction.

But you probably already knew this.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I see dominator as scummier than both of them, but others have commented that he always plays like this, and there doesn't seem to be much interest in it.

"Always plays like this" is not a reason to not vote for someone. Meta is inherently unreliable. Focus on

this

game. In this game, Dom is acting scummy. But having more information on him would be nice. So that is the main reason that I am not voting for him... yet.

[AlwaysInnocent]

But they are.

Something I do every game cannot, by definition, be scummy.

You are basing yourself on meta again. I don't bother with meta.

You know you are going to have to revise it anyway, which you seem to be hesitant about, even though a lot has happened in the meantime.

What.

Seriously, what.

You said the game would not be challenging if every scum was obviously scum from the start. This is true, which is why we have to revise our beliefs all the time. You, however, stick to uninformed reads from the beginning, like Yakko being town and Errant being scum.

You cannot lure out someone whose posting times are unaffected by your mafia time and are instead affected

by their own real life

.

Apparently it is affected by it. I have to admit that it was somewhat of a jerk move, but it seems to be working.

No, I'm defending myself against the things which are explicitly BS. You know the things of yours I haven't defended?

You should have. You look scummy now.

So, what

have

I defended myself against?

...Oh yeah. Exactly what I said I have! BS about my activity (null and also verifiable by

searching my posts site-wide

), and BS about listing.

Except that the listing was not BS.

I've zero intent of defending myself on other fronts.

Makes sense if you are scum.

You don't think I look for motivations?

Clearly you don't.

If you did you wouldn't be voting me.

Haha. Good one.

Motivations are an intricate part of listing. If you can't see motive behind lists, then you can't see motive at all, mate. Pure and simple.

Crapping out lists is too easy. The only motivation I can see is that you are trying to appear town when you aren't.

If I cannot see any reasons, I am going to assume you don't have any.

And you think a person who has played mafia for over five years can't fake reasons as scum? I choose not to give reasons. That does not mean none exist.

Duh. Of course experienced scum will offer reasons, but doing so will put them in danger of contradicting themselves (without it being reasonable belief revision). It becomes harder and harder, the more reasons you give. This is why I insist that people offer reasons. If you are scum, better get ready to get scrutinized.

So explain why.

You haven't been listening. I've been pushing Errant. I've been explaining my read on Errant.

That is why Errant is a stronger scumread

. You harp on me for not giving reasons, yet when I do, you pass over them as if they're nonexistent!

You should be voting for Wanderer, though.

You call my analysis superficial, but calling this a scumslip is even worse.

Scumslips are not superficial. They are driven by simple thought processes. If anything, scumslips are deeper than motivation.You just need to know where to look. BeBop did legitimately slip not-VT. This should be evident because someone with an actual VT role PM would, by virtue of looking at their own role PM, know what the VT role for the game is. (As I already explained.) I called it a scumslip because I made the assumption that BeBop was not a VT, but would be scum faking VT. BeBop being a power role, however, also explained the slip, rendering it a strong confirmation of BeBop's claim. Very, very useful information to have.

Deeper than motivation? I thought motivation was the most important.

So you're saying something I do literally every game is NOT in fact null, that it IS in fact alignment indicative, in spite of the fact that I do it literally every single game?

Dude.

Meta is manipulable. Unreliable. I look at the game at hand. Makes it impossible for you to hide behind your meta. No-one plays exactly the same as previous games.

There's meta that's "stuff you do as town, and stuff you do as scum".
Then there's meta that's

this is my freakin playstyle you douche

.

"Well, it is my playstyle that I always act like scum, even when I am town. Why are you holding me responsible for that?!"

Also, I am not a douche.

Not mine. Reasons have always been optional. Reads are fundamental. The game does not work without reads (you'd literally be random lynching if not for getting reads); the game works without reasons. I rest my case.

Except that reasons give rise to reads. If I offer 3 reasons why you are scum, then I am implicitly scumreading you. However, I cannot derive reasons from your reads alone. Therefore reasons are superior to reads.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Again, what's up with Yakko and Dom?

I come from a site with a

really

heavy focus on the RVS.
When in doubt, return to the RVS.
We do it every game.

It works pretty well, and we've got the art of RVS down to practically a science.

A science, eh? Well, if it is a

science

, then you should know the reasons.

When you see a post, you see: "oh, it's the RVS, probably doesn't mean much". When I see a post, I see: "Nice!" Because on this site, players tend to not know how to RVS properly. They reveal their alignments surprisingly often, and nobody even realizes it. I'm not always right, not even close, but I use the technique with confidence. Just ask former victims of it like Errant. (Oh, wait! Errant isn't acknowledging that!)

I do not really believe in RVS tells, but I guess I do not know the science.

[AlwaysInnocent]

A science, eh? Well, if it is a science, then you should know the reasons.

Of course I do. You think I make these things up?

Yes.

Granted the reasons aren't rock-solid, but RVS content contains readable material. One reason I don't often share though is that I like keeping the secret: it seems to work, yet if I shared it with everyone, it probably wouldn't. At least not nearly as blatantly.

Which is why meta sucks ass.

There's many reasons not to share reasons for reads: the effort involved, the information I gain by

not

sharing (for instance, by seeing how

other people treat my reads

), keeping the trade secret, intimidating the scum if I'm even remotely accurate, refining my reads if it turns out I'm not (yes, giving no reasons on my lists can help me refine my reads!), and many more.

Let's discuss your reasons for not sharing one by one:

1.

The effort involved.

Giving a reason for someone requires less effort and is more valuable than giving reads on everyone, especially that early in the game.
2.

Keeping the trade secret.

I am highly opposed to this. It frustrates scumhunting, since anything can be potential giveaway to scum. Furthermore, it emphasizes the meta-game over the game itself. I treat every game as if it were my last game. If people learn from it, it will only make future games more fun and challenging.
3.

Intimidating the scum if accurate.

Scum generally aren't intimidated by reads without reasons. Scum are intimidated by rational townies, even when they are initially incorrect. Especially if they rationally revise their beliefs to accommodate for new facts and information. A rational townie will eventually close in on the scum.
4.

Refining reads

. Refining reads isn't harder when you have given reasons before, unless your reads are based on nothing.
5.

Many more

. Let's hear about it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Your style of play is not mine. That does not make yours superior. If you can't recognize that, in fact, it makes yours by definition inferior.

It has nothing to do with my play style. It is just a factual statement. I base my play style on facts.

[AlwaysInnocent]

My experience says otherwise. I can quote past scum topics if you don't believe me.

I am talking about rational scum.

And I do this. Subtly, but I do this. It does not go unnoticed.

So, hesitant.

Do you remember that 66% figure I quoted at the beginning of the game? There's a reason I said that. I do exactly that: close in on scum. Yes. With lists. You do not need reasons to do this. You simply need to be rational.

Rational play implies having reasons, even when you do not share them. However, not sharing them is objectively bad play.

But it's not easier, either.
In contrast, refining reads when you list is easier. There's a reason I do it, after all.

I would rather have that you provide reasons for lists than providing reasons for not giving reasons.

What time zone are you in?

GMT+1

I'll tell you where I live: inside America. Let me give you a hint: I woke up, by my local time, at 6:00 AM in the morning. How good are you at math? I won't give you which of the four continental timezones I live in, but I don't need to. Eastern, it's 7 AM. Central, 6 AM. Mountain, 5 AM. Pacific, 4 AM. Again, that is me getting up at 6 AM, and it being somewhere between 4-8 AM now. Somewhere either near, at, or exceeding 24 hours awake.

Most of it spent on this game.

I'm in no mood to elaborate. I'm far overdue for bed.

You are not required to spend most of your time on this game. It would have been easier if you had just provided reasons from the start. We could have avoided all this talk about the meta-game.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yakko might very well be scum, but he is harder to read, so I would not prioritize him over Wanderer.

You wouldn't prioritize the harder to read that would probably take. more time to lynch?

What?

Expressing "surprise" at NKs is often a scumtell, especially when it is completely without substance. Ending your sentence with "hmm" makes it seem like you are deeply thinking about it, but in the end you say nothing worthwhile. Phantom was right to suspect you.

So

TheDominator

becomes red.

There's something off about making a huge case on someone and then scumreading someone else in the same breath over something like this. But that would probably need flips to really dig here

If I had more information to work with, the case would probably have been bigger. Like I said earlier, I need some way to differentiate between different colors of red. I would prioritize {Wanderer, Ranger} over {Dom}. Then comes {Yakko}.

Also town reads are easier to fake than scum reads so that's an interesting question you have there

True.

Yakko
Wanderer
Dwlee

For now everyone else can be town by poe

Dwlee is dead. Confirmed town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Are town villager and town citizen different somehow? *Is confused*

Hello scumslip.

VOTE: Bebop.

I don't do crumbs.

Yes you do.
Titus is scum, too.

VOTE: Titus.

This is not how you scumhunt when you think you've found a slip

I agree.

I am inclined to believe Titus for now, but there is just one thing that keeps bugging me: her early and highly confident (and uncalled for) townread of Ranger. This conflicts with my belief that Ranger is scum.

Let some flips sort that out

Hence my vote on Ranger.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If Albert B. keeps lurking, I will interpret it as a scumclaim from Albert B.

[AlwaysInnocent]

So are you saying he is scumclaiming, Titus? I have to admit: it does seem odd. Exactly 3 scum, as if he knows about his own scum faction, but not the other. From the town POV, assuming it is not multi-ball, a better estimate would be 4:12 scum. My own prediction of the true proportions is 3:3:9, or 4:3:8, or 3:4:8.

But it seems too silly to be true.

[AlwaysInnocent]

My biggest scum reads are Errant and Ranger. I'm guessing they must be of different scum factions.

Why Errant?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Not sure. He does seem to make up his own mind. Have you ISO'ed him yet?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I agree that we have to sort this out, but I am not sure if you got the order right. I townread Titus much later in the game (because of PR claim), but #265 happened before this.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Or do you mean Titus townreading me? I am not sure if she did before D2, but I may just be overlooking it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Is this a good summary of Ranger v. AI?

AI: your reads are bad. You are scum

Ranger:that's just how I play

AI: your play is bad. You are scum

Ranger: my play isn't bad tho

AI: yes it is

Ranger: no it's not

Etc.

I laughed.

I guess I overdid it a bit. Regardless of Ranger's alignment, I sincerely hope I did not ruin the game for her. Sometimes I do not realize that I am being a dick.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: flubber

Mod confirmed multiball. Can't PoE to 3 ppl.

Have you never seen an incomplete reads list before

You can't have a PoE to three people and then say it's incomplete. That's what happens if your PoE is too big not too small.

Good point. PoE is useless without completeness. This is logic 101.

[AlwaysInnocent]

@ai I highly doubt it because it wasn't inflammatory

But in all seriousness, I can only half see your argument. Like the reads list is dissonant, but the argument is more about that there's no reasons? A good scum can cover that up just like a bad town can flail over it.

The point is that providing reasons forces you to expose yourself. Yes, experienced scum are quite capable of making up reasons, but at the same time they are taking a risk by doing that. So it is only rational to make sure that people give reasons for whatever they do (once the RVS ends). It makes it easier to read them. How people read other people, on the basis of these provided reasons, is also important, and this is also decided by underlying reasons, which could be made explicit.

Self meta is bad but people have vanity issues. It's what they do. I see it from a lot of either alignment and you just have to say it's null and void. But 9/10 times you can't really make a case with it

Nothing is ever exactly the same. Therefore look at the game at hand.

[AlwaysInnocent]

You're arguing theory a lot more than you think

What's wrong with that?

I'm pretty bad a posting reasons and in the past few months ms has had no problem correctly town reading me

You could do better.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Okay but why am I less scummy than ranger then?

Because Ranger is more obviously scummy. I am not saying you have been cleared.

And arguing theory should be left to the mafia discussion forum. You're normally best just stating your stances and leaving it at that. It's easy for scum to argue theory and is a good red herring from a lack of scumhunting

So you don't want people to use theory to find scum?

Interesting.

*takes note*

[AlwaysInnocent]

I want them to

use

theory, just not argue their theory is right

Well, arguing about theory is sometimes part of the game, and can lead to scum trapping themselves.

Some people think that a lack of reasoning is scummy on its own. Some don't.

Depends on the context, but it is generally more scummy than townish.

There's not enough time in this game's day phases combined to get everyone onto one side

Well, I guess mass-sheeping is much better.

Also x is obviously more scummy than y isn't much of a reason

Well, it is not like there are several pages dedicated to Ranger.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Anyway, could you answer Titus' question why you are wrongly applying PoE to three scum, knowing there should be more?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Prodge

Are you actually going to contribute...

anything

this game?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why Flubber?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Albert B. confirms that he is scum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't have a solid grasp on this game because I hae no idea what's going on with Titus and Squirely. They are both PRs, and Titus is a JK, Squirely is some kind of PR that doesn't get mod feedback. Is this the gist of it? Because I don't really understand.

People say AI solely because of his play? Or did I miss something?

I post a lot.

Anyway, could you answer Titus' question why you are wrongly applying PoE to three scum, knowing there should be more?

You could answer 658 as well

You first. Then I will answer.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Flubber your 3-pool POE sucks donkey balls.

Now you are just copying me. And I was basically repeating Titus' question.

[AlwaysInnocent]

If I'm not town, whats your read on titus?

I can't answer that question until someone answers my question about Titus.

Why? So you can NK him?

[AlwaysInnocent]

her*

[AlwaysInnocent]

Flubber your 3-pool POE sucks donkey balls.

Now you are just copying me. And I was basically repeating Titus' question.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, some noobie that joined november 2015 can be right on occasion.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I see, texcat. But it not impossible to think that Errant lost interest in me for the same reasons that Titus did. And I am pretty sure that Titus is town.

Not saying that Errant cannot be scum. I am open to new ideas and different perspectives. So if you have a good case, then please try to convince me.

[AlwaysInnocent]

UNVOTE: Ranger

VOTE: Albert B.

[AlwaysInnocent]

To be honest, the discussion with Ranger has kind of made me doubt her being scum. If she is scum anyway, then she did extraordinary well. For now, she will not be my main focus.

This is why I am switching my vote to Albert B. Of course, there are many more candidates that I find highly suspicious, but Albert B. sticks out at the moment. I want to see what he is up to.

[AlwaysInnocent]

UNVOTE: Ranger

VOTE: Wanderer

I like Albert's recent posts, and were getting close to the deadline. Lets lynch wanderer and look at albert again when we have some more info.

What do you like about it specifically?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I am not even sure what he contributed...

[AlwaysInnocent]

I don't have a solid grasp on this game because I hae no idea what's going on with Titus and Squirely. They are both PRs, and Titus is a JK, Squirely is some kind of PR that doesn't get mod feedback. Is this the gist of it? Because I don't really understand.

People say AI solely because of his play? Or did I miss something?

I post a lot.

Anyway, could you answer Titus' question why you are wrongly applying PoE to three scum, knowing there should be more?

You could answer 658 as well

You first. Then I will answer.

wow really are you reading

At the time, I had 3 scum reads. The wanderer case makes sense and yakko's play is bullshit. I had a slight scum read on dw and didn't see any additional posting from him so that stuck. Everyone else is town by poe. Yes, I'm wrong, because two/three scum in a game this size isn't probable. But are all your reads right all the time?

No. My reads need constant revision. But I do not base my reads on false premises, e.g., that there are three scum, when it is pretty much certain that there are more.

[AlwaysInnocent]

abr always plays like this. perpetual null all the time. meh

Defending Albert B.?

*takes note*

Also, meta-reads are very misleading. I do not rely on them and neither should you.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Link me to your newbie game I want to make fun of you.

While it is true that I am new to this site, I have been playing this game since 2008. But whatever, right?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I feel that you are taking it too personal.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Hey Titus, nice vote.

You should join.

AI you too.

I am not saying that Flubber cannot be scum, but I would rather prevent another Phantom-like mislynch.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Wanderer

I guess we don't have much time left.

Dom admits he is lurking and does nothing about it. I don't like that one bit.

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI where have you played forum mafia?

Some Dutch site and later my own, with an automated mod, standardized voting (with a dropdown box), standardized use of powers (also with a dropdown box), etc.

None of these sites exist anymore, however. Yeah, that means I cannot prove that I have been playing the game, but I do not feel that I need to do that. It should be obvious that I didn't just start playing this game since November 2015. You are free to believe I am just an arrogant newbie, though. Maybe I am just making stuff up, who knows.

It can be argued that the level on this site is higher than any other forum that plays this game, but you should not underestimate other sites either. Even though we didn't have nice words for everything, we were talking about the same things. For example, we didn't have "bussing", but we did have "opofferen van een wolvenvriendje" (sacrificing a scum buddy). All that kind of stuff.

[AlwaysInnocent]

But, to tell you the truth, before I joined MafiaScum, I had not been playing the game for two years ago. My own site died because of a lack of interest. I eventually wanted to re-code everything, make it more interesting, etc. But I never finished the project, probably because I expected people to not care about it anymore.

Then not too long ago I wrote a paper about Mafia for a course on epistemic logic and game theory. This made me interested in the game again, and made me look for some place to play the game again. First, I tried Town of Salem, then became quickly disappointed with the poor quality game play. Then I discovered MafiaScum.

[AlwaysInnocent]

for two years or so*

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Wanderer

I guess we don't have much time left.

Dom admits he is lurking and does nothing about it. I don't like that one bit.

Weak vote and reasoning.
We doing another just end of day "welp we gotta lynch someone"
I am getting over that shtick.

Not feeling townie or scummy on Wanderer but nobody has convinced me Titus is town. Would rather unpeal that bandage now.

Weak reading on your part. I had already made my case on Wanderer before.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Then I discovered MafiaScum.

Welcome to disappointment central.
Next stop lurker city.

So far this site has not disappointed me. I have seen some pretty incredible players here.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Not feeling townie or scummy on Wanderer but nobody has convinced me Titus is town. Would rather unpeal that bandage now.

Just go with it for now. She claimed jailkeeper.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Wanderer is currently at L-4.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Deadline is 15DEC15, 0 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes

[AlwaysInnocent]

Come on, people. A no-lynch is really bad for town. We only have 9 hours left.

[AlwaysInnocent]

*bats eyelashes* wanderer is null for me. Prefer flubber

You need to convince me more then.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Or perhaps we should just lynch TheDominator. Look at his ISO.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why not Wanderer, texcat?

[AlwaysInnocent]

If we reach the deadline, and there is still no majority for a lynch, then does this mean that the lynch defaults to no-lynch? I assume this, but is it true? I cannot find this anywhere.

should an adequate majority not be reached, a No-Lynch will occur

[AlwaysInnocent]

An "adequate majority" is at least 50%+1 right? Not just the player with most votes.

Correct

[AlwaysInnocent]

Albert B., what do you think about TheDominator?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus's posting just seems calculated. It feels like how she would go about hunting scum in a multiball game when being scum herself: manipulative and controlled, easily compromising and changing, lacking in stubbornness because stubbornness draws attention to yourself and drawing attention to yourself when scum in multiball is suicide.

Dominator's posting simply hasn't bothered me at all, which instantly puts him above half the players in the game. I'd have to get back to you on what specifically I actually liked, I just remember reading what Dominator said and thinking, "This doesn't look like scum."

TheDominator's posts were not bothering to Ranger. This seems really strange given TheDominator's ISO.

Titus, what do you think about this?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger, you almost had me.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I really have trouble making up my mind. But then again, there are more scum than usual, so it is hard to pick.

Ranger of Wanderer. Tough choice. Ranger basically scumclaimed in that post. I would really like the town's feedback on this (not Ranger's).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Ranger or Wanderer*

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yakko, what is your opinion on #762?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Wanderer is at L-1 now.

I will re-vote after some questions have been answered.

UNVOTE: Wanderer

[AlwaysInnocent]

Albert B., what do you think about TheDominator?

I've seen him make exactly one post today. He needs to come out and play.

And what is your opinion on post #762?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Albert B., what do you think about TheDominator?

I've seen him make exactly one post today. He needs to come out and play.

And what is your opinion on post #762?

It reflects poorly on Ranger.

How does this inform your read on Ranger?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I would rather vote for Ranger now, but the deadline probably won't admit it.

Deadline is 15DEC15, 0 days, 4 hours, 4 minutes

[AlwaysInnocent]

How does this inform your read on Ranger?

I was already suspicious of Ranger.

Not true.

I'm caught up after skimming through all the pages.

AI looked like scum early on, with every post he made almost, now he looks town on D2. So I guess he's town.

wanderer I've no idea.

Squirely is town.

I don't know why people say Bebop is town, I don't see it.

Errant is town.

Ranger is town.

Texcat could be scum.

VOTE: Flubber

[AlwaysInnocent]

Could you explain why you were already suspicious of Ranger? When did this happen? Before you thought she was town.

[AlwaysInnocent]

What is your interpretation of those two posts?

[AlwaysInnocent]

I cannot hammer. Wanderer is currently at L-2.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Stating intent to hammer. Will follow with a real hammer within seconds. The justification can be found here.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Wanderer

The hammer.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why do you put all that text in spoilers?

Thats odd.

And of course Titus was killed >.>

Why?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Albert B is showing as "Not Town".

I don't trust him either.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Oh. Wait. A claim. Wow.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Albert B.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Then Flubber might be his buddy.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I'm a town VT.

You do know that a VT claim is a really safe fakeclaim, right?

If your claim is real, then you were redirected.

The probability of being redirected is extremely low.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Well then he's lying, lynch Bebop after I flip.

Thanks for admitting.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I feel no need to be on the lynch of confscum, so might as well make a statement with my vote.

If someone is confirmed scum, then why not vote for them?

[AlwaysInnocent]

If someone is confirmed scum, then why not vote for them?

So...

do we want to discuss anything today

or just speedlynch ABR?

Confscum is confscum is guaranteed lynch.
That doesn't require one vote after another.
ABR's getting lynched today, without question, without doubt.

So I want to have my suspicion on Errant stated in vote form, because I can.

So nobody can accuse you of opportunism, right?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Albert B. hammered himself.

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Hello scum buddy of Albert B.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Considering interactions, Ranger is pretty clearly town.
Going to reread now.

No. I don't think Ranger is pretty clearly town. However, she will not give herself away so easily.

[AlwaysInnocent]

This game is weird :S

If you are not interested in the game, or do not have enough time, then please request a replacement. There is nothing wrong with not having enough time, but this is not very fair to other players.

Or, alternatively, you could show more activity.

[AlwaysInnocent]

The same goes for ZZZX.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Squirrelly is probably town.
Ranger is definitely town.
AI is probably town.

Why is Ranger more definitely town than the rest of us? I thought you said that I was super town?

Also here's why Ranger is town

1. Not voting ABR draws spotlight attention to her on interaction with ABR. I don't think a werewolf would risk that.
2. Pushing on vampires right now (I think that the texcat case is very believable) is not something a vampire would do.
3. Ranger's play right now is MUCH MORE SIMILAR to BPS.
4. Seems like actual scumhunting going on in her recent posts.

1. Ever heard of reverse psychology? It made no sense

not

to vote for ABR. If she was really making a statement with her vote on you, then why vote for texcat the next day?
2. Unless she knows that texcat is not a vampire.
4. Yeah, seems like it.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus has flipped JK. Late yesterday Titus wanted to lynch

flubbernugget

. So, Titus probably jailed flubber. There are two known scum factions, but there was only one kill. Ergo, flubber is scum.

- pers

But then again there was only 1 scum again last night O_o

What are your thoughts about that?

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: Errant
This is the third day I've voted him.

Can you give us a read list (preferably with reasons)? I am interested to see your thoughts.

And how did Ranger suddenly turn into conftown?

She didn't.

Errant was voting for her and suddenly overnight she has turned into conftown. Am I missing something again?

Nope, just Errant townreading Ranger.

I was still thinking that Ranger and Errant are on opposing scum teams.

Perhaps. Or not.

And it wouldn't surprise me to find another one of Wanderer's team on the tail endish of his wagon. Yakko and Dom.

Probably.

[AlwaysInnocent]

1. Ever heard of reverse psychology? It made no sense not to vote for ABR. If she was really making a statement with her vote on you, then why vote for texcat the next day?
2. Unless she knows that texcat is not a vampire.
4. Yeah, seems like it.

You're right on 1. but it's one of the pieces of a puzzle that paints ranger as town. And in terms of 2 I think it's a lot more likely for texcat to be a vampire than for ranger to be a vampire.

Why does Ranger think you're scum and you think she is definitely town? How do you explain this?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Errant, can you give a read list as well including reasons?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yakko, can you also give a read list?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Behind them are Always Innocent, who has one of the longer isos in the game. He's been scumhunting plenty, and is definitely not a vampire. His play is largely focused on certain players at a time, meaning there isn't exactly one spot you can look at and go, "so that's what his thoughts on the players are", but he's not leaving himself with suspiciously few interactions. He is also very doubtfully a werewolf, given his relatively-early callout of ABR being scum. (This is not quite as absolute as his Wanderer callout, but it's close enough.)

I don't think bussing abr in any sort of manner is unlikely but I do agree that he is not scum

Catching up soon

Right. Any competent scum would have recognized that Albert B. was doomed, and voted for him, if they had the chance.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus has flipped JK. Late yesterday Titus wanted to lynch

flubbernugget

. So, Titus probably jailed flubber. There are two known scum factions, but there was only one kill. Ergo, flubber is scum.

- pers

But then again there was only 1 scum again last night O_o

What are your thoughts about that?

I don't know. I'm just super confuzzled

At least give us a read list with reasons.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Yakko, can you also give a read list?

Anyone in particular I ask because I have been focused on other games more deeply. I am reading just not actively reading. I'll focus on those you want, but I'll give a read for everyone is what I'm saying. Words are hard.

Off the top of my head I remember having squirrel as town and ranger as well. I don't mind follwing them.

Why is Ranger town?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus has flipped JK. Late yesterday Titus wanted to lynch

flubbernugget

. So, Titus probably jailed flubber. There are two known scum factions, but there was only one kill. Ergo, flubber is scum.

- pers

But then again there was only 1 scum again last night O_o

What are your thoughts about that?

I don't know. I'm just super confuzzled

At least give us a read list with reasons.

Everyone = scum

That's not helping at all. If you are town, please help us at least a little. This is only making you look suspicious.

[AlwaysInnocent]

I think ranger might be scum in all honesty. I don't get his town read on me. Posts don't "feel" town or scummy.

That's already something really useful. Please go on. Read other people. It tells me more than you think.

[AlwaysInnocent]

The role speculation is stupid; we have solid play evidence that suggests texcat is a vampire, so we should lynch there and worry about potential werewolves tomorrow.

What do we have on Texcat, though?

• She seemed to deflect from Wanderer.
  
• An insincere sounding congratulatory post.
  
• Emphasizing consistency, for voting Errant again. Not sure why we need to know.

But how is this a solid case?

[AlwaysInnocent]

You think Errant is scum vampire then?

No, Errant's my best guess for werewolf.
texcat's the vampire, and probably a smaller faction at that, so could potentially be eliminating a faction with that lynch.

What do we have on Texcat, though?

She seemed to deflect from Wanderer.
An insincere sounding congratulatory post.
Emphasizing consistency, for voting Errant again. Not sure why we need to know.

But how is this a solid case?

Yes, we have these incriminating interactions in addition to texcat fitting the same posting profile as ABR and Wanderer: focusing only on specific players and not providing much reason behind their pushes, with a low post count.

I suppose you're right about that, but often there is one active scum member guiding the game, and that could be you.

If that isn't enough for you, then I'm sorry, you need to seriously rethink how you play; it's rock-solid evidence.

I don't need to rethink anything. This is my playstyle. Back off!

[AlwaysInnocent]

Hey Always Innocent, why you thinking Ranger is not town?
Which seems to be where you have been going recently.

Her early reads keep bugging me. There is something insincere about them.

Yakko is town and so is Dominator; Wanderer

may

be scum.

This is her second post in the game. Somehow she was already speculating about Wanderer being scum. For no good reason, she townread TheDominator, whose posting style did not bother her at all. Any reasonable player would find TheDominator's posting bothering, though.

When Wanderer was in danger of being lynched, I told her to vote for Wanderer. She said: "My weaker scumread? No. Only when I am desperate."

When Albert B. got lynched, she did not feel the need to vote for him, since he would be "lynched anyway". She preferred to make a "statement" with her vote. It seems like she cared more about appearances than just getting confirmed scum lynched. Perhaps she thought that jumping on the wagon would make her suspicious?

[AlwaysInnocent]

Those all seem like things that actually make her town though.
Like the phrasing used by her doesn't suggest she knows alignments.

Why?

What scum would say they wouldn't lynch a scum buddy if desperate? Its just horribly incriminating if they get lynched...

Dunno. Maybe because she didn't want me or another asshole to criticize her jumping on a bandwagon. Except that I wouldn't be able to do anything, because voting for Albert B. was the

best

thing for any alignment.

Unless diff scum teams obviously.

Perhaps.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Dunno. Maybe because she didn't want me or another asshole to criticize her jumping on a bandwagon. Except that I wouldn't be able to do anything, because voting for Albert B. was the best thing for any alignment.

I mean if you are scum, you know town is going to ISO you eventually. You can't just sneak in weird comments about players without it catching your eyes, right?

Like you will hide affiliations. That isn't hiding that is openly saying "I am not voting this person unless i have to" which on the surface looks incredibly bad.

Now would Ranger do that so openly as scum? Yes or No.

If you think yes, don't you think she would also push harder against the wagon forming?

At least thats what I would do. Which I kinda did, but I really didn't see wanderer as scummy.

You can get away with a lot. People often overlook the most simple things. Most people do not have the patience to keep ISO'ing everyone. Single suspicious posts disappear in a sea of posts.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Why? I was pointing out some general thoughts about the game and what kind of things are generally overlooked.

Regardless of my alignment

, it is true.

But it doesn't matter much, because no-one would consider me scum at this point, simply because:

1. I voted for Wanderer before it was cool. So I am not a vampire.
2. I voted for Albert B. before it was cool. So I am not a werewolf.

[AlwaysInnocent]

1. I voted for Wanderer before it was cool. So I am not a vampire.
2. I voted for Albert B. before it was cool. So I am not a werewolf.

Neither of these were cool.

I don't see how being at the front of the train makes you confirmed town.

It doesn't, but it makes it more likely. I am confirmed town, though.

We also had a town cop with a guilty on ABR so that was kind of a no brainer.

True, but I voted even before that and called out Albert B, causing him to be annoyed with me (it is hard to fake this).

[AlwaysInnocent]

Flubber your 3-pool POE sucks donkey balls.

Now you are just copying me. And I was basically repeating Titus' question.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, some noobie that joined november 2015 can be right on occasion.

Link me to your newbie game I want to make fun of you.

Titus AI is one of your people?

Why don't I like any of them?

You can't fake this shit.