Newbie 1677 (Game Over)

[Witch_Hunter]

Sorry I haven't been talking much, things have been picking up with work and school.

The thing I am trying to work out is how the mafia knew PC was a power role. Was it really random chance that they hit our one power role, or in the case of the column, our best power role? The way I see it, PC was a poor night kill target because he was looking like he was going to get himself lynched soon anyways. He was making enemies with a lot of people over little stuff, I guess to apply pressure. It's actually kind of funny to think of how Mocha or Tojam would react to him coming out with a Jailerkeeper claim and calling someone out.

During Day 1, I kind of assumed that mykonian was a power role, which I alluded to in a couple other posts. I didn't want to spell it out, but I definitely didn't want to lynch him Day 1 because of two majors reasons:

1. He is the IC, and I believe this makes him an HVT. The mafia would benefit to get rid of the more experienced players. Therefore, I wanted to see if he would be a lightning rod for a night kill, which would be impossible if we lynched him.
2. I thought he was a power role.

The reason I thought he was a power role is this:
He was working himself up to be one of the scummiest players in the game during Day 1. Sure, Jachawk and hawkleader were lurking, PC was mouthing off one-liners at people, Tojam was being Tojam, and I don't know what Lia was doing, but it somehow got her rallied against. But I felt like mykonian was drawing a lot of heat for the purpose of making himself a scum-read, which would give him the time he needed to use a PR ability.

Needless to say, I'm still quite surprised by PC's flip. It still makes sense why PC acted that way, for the very reason I outlined above. But it makes me more suspicious about mykonian.

But still, how did they know about PC?

I'm going to post here what my next steps are: I'm going to try and look at another game from mykonian, and I'm going to look at PC's iso again to see if I missed anything.

A question I would like to ask to everyone, who was your prediction on the nightkill after Lia flipped green?
I thought it was going to be either me, ruku, or mykonian.

Something about this post seems insincere. I can't put my finger on it though.
Phantom was the most blatant about being scummy, and if you look through his past games, he was at least a bit more involved and a little more subtle than this one.

I thought that either Phantom, Ruku, or Myko would die during the night. Natsu, and I were possible, but less probable, and Jachawk, tojam2 and hawkleader3 had no chance in dying that night.

The fellow I'm replacing had already noticed pretty much the same thing...

[Witch_Hunter]

@Mochaman the answer to this question is irrelevant because I'm not voting for you because of that reason, and me telling you this reason does not help the scum hunting anymore, so I chose to ignore it until you forgot about it and moved on to more important tasks. Which you had for a period of time. I was wondering if light suspicion casted on you would affect your scum hunting in any way if I ignored you.

This is a ridiculously scummy reply.

It sure is.

[Witch_Hunter]

Sorry if I appear to be lurking, not so sure if I am the biggest lurker though .....
Here are a few points I had noted earlier ....

Some of hawkleader3's recent posts,

@ratsu I think applying pressure for the sake of applying it is only effective during a very inactive scum game or the beginning of eveey scum game

@Mochaman your two scum subjects are at L-2. Are you still deciding which one to vote on or are you waiting on purpose for a claim?

THIS PUTS TOJAM2 AT L-1

After his defense in Day 1, his posts seem to fall in the category of "need to show that he is active". Even though he provides a readslist, there is no reasoning in it and does not do much to bring out scum. Also, he has not reacted to some of the points made against him which contradicts what he held against tojam2 earlier.

This just seems weird and kind of suggests that he is content with deflecting the blame off of him without doing much to find scum, hence my vote.

I read through mykon and jachawks ISO and they never give reads on each other, have never thrown suspicion on each other barely even mentioned each other. Which I believe to be sketchy as hell.

Looking at mykonian's posts, I dont really find any of them scummy and as of now, I am fairly convinced he is town. I am not sure what you find so sketchy about this ...

This is good. I don't think scum-jachawk would defend mykonian, and the bolded comment about hawkleader matches what I was thinking.

[Witch_Hunter]

hawkleader3

@Mochaman the answer to this question is irrelevant because I'm not voting for you because of that reason, and me telling you this reason does not help the scum hunting anymore, so I chose to ignore it until you forgot about it and moved on to more important tasks. Which you had for a period of time. I was wondering if light suspicion casted on you would affect your scum hunting in any way if I ignored you.

A little earlier I said that this reply was 'ridiculously scummy', I'll expand on that now. By this point in post#280, I had already brought up this question 5 times. I initially thought that you had missed it, but choosing to withhold your thoughts under the reason that 'it's irrelevant' doesn't come from the mindset of a town. hawkleader3 also said that he scumread me because

Mochaman and tojam are scum and they easily flipped you guys into believing that asking for a claim too early is scummy in every way and mocha turned me into easy lynch bait whole tojam waited until the wagon was at L-2 before he jumped on. Perfect timing.

But since that isn't reason he's scumreading me, he has yet to provide any explanation for any of his reads. He's clearly more more inclined to ask people for their thoughts over sharing his own. I would be very surprised if he flipped town.

jachawk
I think I share thoughts with mykonian in that I don't see his lurking too be too scummy. He's a bit more nit picky, but he's pointing out things that I haven't seen before and doesn't seem to be afraid to post his thoughts every now and then. His 353 is pretty scummy (as Ruku has pointed out). But it also seems like something I would say even as a town.

This game'd be a completely different beast if people had listened to MM's reads. A team of hawkleader* + {Natsu,Ruku}** is a definite possibility.
* Unless his replacement somehow manages to completely reverse that impression.
** Both were important to mykonian's mislynch, from what I've read so far, so that's not helping me decide.

[Witch_Hunter]

Man I love this, you've managed to waste a whole day of time talking about about useless stuff. I don't feel like I have time to convince Mocha + 1, thus hawkleader will get lynched. Who is in my scum circle but eeeh, he hasn't even posted 4 days 12 hours.

I'm starting to like mocha less for town, he's been following mykon all game which seems kinda weird but I guess if they were both mafia they'd try to stay away a bit.

@Mykon, You COMPLETELY twisted my point. It doesn't matter what I think about jachawk because i've said multiple times now. You and Him are scum together. I posted my reasons a few posts back, no need to re-hash them.

There IS scum somewhere in Mykon, Jachawk, Hawkleader and I'm so sure it's mykon at this point.

I guess I might as well post the whole argument.

What makes that natsu is so convinced ruku is town that he's convinced he knows ruku's entire thoughts that he can talk for him? It's because there's not that lingering bit of doubt that ruku could be scum. Pointing to the wiki as an autority after that is just icing on the cake, I'm worried about natsu's actions, not the wiki's.

Taken together, Ruku's disposition to lynch hawkleader if the mykonian wagon goes nowhere and mykonian's case on Natsu do make Natsu scummier than Ruku.

[Witch_Hunter]

2 scum in Ruku, hawkleader3 and Natsu in my opinion.

Is there a word for "that uncomfortable feeling the unlkeliest person agrees with you"?

[Maestro]

I think I'll take a moment to mention I despise this method of "catching up" on a game. We don't want to know your thoughts on the gamestate as of 2 Day phases ago, Witch_Hunter. We want to kow your thoughts about the gamestate as it stands now. I replaced hawkleader. If you have concerns, don't address them to a ghost, as it were. I am here. Address me. Talking about the gamestate prior to when you or somebody else replaced in is only valuable if it heavily impacts your read on a slot.

You especially don't need to go through your own predecessor's posts going "man what a good post" "oh boy something else I agree with" etc. ad infinitum. You have no reason to confirm your predecessor was Town in your own eyes - you've seen your Role PM. As for us, you can talk about your predecessor's posts if you like, but only in a way that adds value or expands on them. Not as a cheerleader. Tread your predecessor as you. Stop patting yourself on the back. It's fucking annoying for one. And for another, that kindof thing is a form of mindset acclimatization I seen much more often in Scum replacements.

[Maestro]

Not to mention we don't need two whole pages of "WITCH_HUNTER'S THOUGHTS ON DAY 2" filling up the thread. Respond in one post and do us a favor: take up 1/25th of the posts on a page.

[Witch_Hunter]

UH I MAY HAVE JUST INADVERTENTLY HAMMERED MYKO

That doesn't improve my impression of your slot.

[Maestro]

That's wonderful. Let us know when you're up-to-date.

[Witch_Hunter]

I won't be able to post for the next while.
I think Natsu and Maestro are scum together (even before Mykonian had voted Natsu.)
Back in day 2 I figured it was either Hawkleader & Natsu, or Ruku and Jachawk. Leaving tojam2 and Mykonian. (For reasons I'm too tired and lazy to explain, but will in a few days. Take a look at their ISOs and hopefully you'll see where I'm getting at.)
Neither tojam2 nor Mykonian had been particularly towny nor scummy in my eyes. tojams vote is a bit of a dangerous wildcard I think.
Part of the reasoning for my read on Natsu is that many of his posts don't seem to be coming from a town mindset and have been sheeping many arguments.
I think Maestro is scum because he took over hawkleader3s spot and his hammer on Mykonian doesn't particularity help him.

Ruku and Jachawk have just been much less scummy than Maestro(hawkleader) and Natsu.

ruku : Looking at his posts in ISO, I am not sure if these are of aggressive town or scum trying to deflect attention away. But the points in 464 still remain and as of now he is leaning scum for me.

maestro : I liked his posts towards the end of Day 2, but his more recent posts seem to lack purpose, not what I would expect from town trying to find scum. It is weird that this is the same issue I had with hawkleader as I said in 336. But perhaps, maestro can explain better regarding this.

natsu : He does seem to be going along with the arguments made, but I am not sure what this is indicative of.

tojam2 : Looking at his posts, I cannot really see them as being scum-motivated. Also, I find it hard to believe that this is because of some devious plan to avoid getting lynched.

Agree with most of this. Maestro's hammer and his posts today are as scummy as hawkleader3's general lack of useful activity and scumhunting.

Jachawk, despite not posting much, is making an effort to figure things out and find scum, often notes things others hadn't noticed, and I really like his way of thinking. Strong townread.

tojam2 is something of a wildcard, really. I'm slightly townreading him because his playstyle is very dangerous for scum. Calls too much attention to him, yet he's not taken seriously. That said, he should have been the day 1 lynch, but now it's too late for that.

That leaves Ruku and Natsu. I still don't like that D1 hammer, but aside from that Ruku's been pro-town. And, for some reason, MM seriously townread him, and since I agree with most of his reads, agreeing with this one as well makes sense.
Now, Natsu... he plays a lot like I played scum. Making a serious effort to be seen as the towniest town who ever towned. Friendly on D1, seldom aggressive unless someone else's on the wagon - watch his interaction with mykonian on D2, where he only began to pressure mykonian when Ruku was doing the same. I'm not completely convinced here, but he's still a better lynch than Ruku.

I'm for beginning with the strongest scumread, so:
VOTE: maestro

[Witch_Hunter]

I think I'll take a moment to mention I despise this method of "catching up" on a game. We don't want to know your thoughts on the gamestate as of 2 Day phases ago, Witch_Hunter.

Nice meeting you too. Do you speak for everyone else here?

We want to kow your thoughts about the gamestate as it stands now. I replaced hawkleader. If you have concerns, don't address them to a ghost, as it were. I am here. Address me. Talking about the gamestate prior to when you or somebody else replaced in is only valuable if it heavily impacts your read on a slot.

The game has a history. Your predecessor was scummy, so are you. Putting two and two together is hardly useless.

You especially don't need to go through your own predecessor's posts going "man what a good post" "oh boy something else I agree with" etc. ad infinitum. You have no reason to confirm your predecessor was Town in your own eyes - you've seen your Role PM. As for us, you can talk about your predecessor's posts if you like, but only in a way that adds value or expands on them. Not as a cheerleader. Tread your predecessor as you. Stop patting yourself on the back. It's fucking annoying for one. And for another, that kindof thing is a form of mindset acclimatization I seen much more often in Scum replacements.

I'm looking at what went on so far from an outsider perspective - thus, I may not notice obvious things everyone else saw, but I might see something you didn't. That's what I've just done. Some posts seemed worthy of attention, I commented on them, a general pattern arose.

Besides, you are aware this slot is confirmed town, right?

Anyway, my reading is done. You are scum, your partner's most likely Natsu, and I want to see you two hang. Is that clear enough for you?

[Witch_Hunter]

Also, being condescending to a new player who is visibly scumhunting, while you're not doing anything of the sort? There's no way in hell this is pro-town.

Face the facts, maestro - this was reaction test 101, and you fell for it. Who'd have thought my #1 suspect would try to dismiss my scumhunting, eh?

@ everyone else

: seriously, folks, sorry about the quotewalls, but that + maestro and his predecessor's pattern of trying to seem active while not actually doing much scumhunting + his reaction to my posts leads to only one conclusion. He's scummier than Judas and if we don't lynch him today, we deserve to lose.

[Witch_Hunter]

jachawk

lacks commitment to anything in this game so far - but I don't know yet if that points Scum or Town.
The recent vote-hop on and off...with no clear difference as far as my slot is concerned...makes no sense.

mykonian

is not Scum with

Ruku

; if either flips red the other is as good as conf in my eyes. But right now his early pages (while he was being run up) ping the shit out of me. Most of the thread after that I've had to skim, because you guys got really listless for a few pages; the Lia lynch was not particularly well thought-out and today's wagon on hawk seems to be mainly one of desperation getting closer to the deadline - a situation

myko

hasn

Ruku

makes the most basic sense to me, as far as playstyle goes. When I replace into a game, I mainly look for people who match my mindset.

Ruku

is that player here. Willing to sheep the vote on

myko

just based on my own reading and you can start the day tomorrow with me having had a better read of the thread.

VOTE: myko

tojam2

has a very disconnected playstyle. He apparently got to L-1 but I didn't see a claim on my skim-through. Why is he not being more closely scrutinized?

I think we've established that most partnerships discussed by my half of the group involve Ruku.

Why are you so focused on partner-speculation when we haven't had a Scumflip yet?
Why aren't you trying to convince people to vote

Ruku

?

Also, somebody mentioned questions posed to hawk that he didn't answer. What (specifically) were these questions?

Tojam is playing way too loose and aggressive to be scum to me, in addition to other details already covered.

Speak in your own words - don't reference other peoples'.

How do you justify the words of one Scumread eliminating your faith in another Scumread? (e.g. in this case,

myko's

words encouraging / convincing you that

tojam

isn't Scum). I personally don't think he (

tojam

) is playing aggressively at all. He's playing analytically, which is dangerous when it's not coupled with the passion or fire I'd expect to reside behind the analysis of a Town mindset -

Ruku

is a good example of that from what I read closely.

tojam

definitely doesn't seem to care a whole lot about who gets lynched, if that's what you mean by "loose". He's just looking to continue fiddling with his little partner lists - that analytical aspect that is painting him null. It's kindof slimy in the same way stereotypical accountants are thought of as slimy. They think they know so much, or they want to. Hard to explain. If anything, I'd say he and

myko

are Scum together, if he (

tojam

) is Scum at all. But I'm not really sold on that, for different reasons than you've cited. I'll go into that tomorrow. When we see

myko's

flip I'll look more closely, but I really dislike his interactions with

Mocha

- or lack thereof.

In the beginning, he (

myko

) does a lot of answering

Mocha

's questions to appear helpful and offer something close to interaction as substance, but worse than IIoA (Information Instead of Analysis) this is Information Instead of Interaction. After that he switches to talking ABOUT

Mocha

, almost never directly addressing him unless he's answering another question

Mocha

aimed directly at him - and

Mocha

doesn't do that often. They seem to be actively avoiding eachother unless the other one breaks the unspoken rule first. At least that's the feeling I get in ISO. Also of real interest, an excerpt from

myko's

post 386:

I have a townread on mocha. Even if I agree with him, I'm not going to argue his arguments for him. Hell, it's just a townread, I could be mistaken.

An EXTREMELY non-committed read on

Mocha

, coupled with an out-in-case-of-flip for either of them. This is exactly how I might sometimes expect to see Scum label their partner.

As I think through all this, I notice how ironic it is that I just asked

tojam

why he's so concerned with partner speculation. He goes about it the wrong way - you shouldn't be making a long list of every possibility, you should be digging in each ISO until you find a concrete reason why somebody would not be partnered with somebody else. There's a lot more Town than Scum in this game; lists where 80% of you "potential Scum" are actually Town do nothing. Post about one person you think is Scum with one other person you think could easily be Scum with them (in this case, I think

myko

is Scum with somebody who's leaning-Null for me and who has very little meaningful interaction with Scumread numero uno). There's some handy unwarranted advice from an SE.

Now, I'm going to bed. I better see a lynch in the morning. Something is better than nothing...ALMOST always.

PEDIT:

tojam

is not playing recklessly. The rest is null, if that. I've done crazier shit as Scum to either get ignored or play off the over-aggressive style, usually to great success.

Maestro's readlist, divided in 2 posts, and practically the only time he posted anything of substance. Let's leave aside his noncompromising stance, weakly scum- or nullreading just about everyone but Ruku (I see that as buddying up to an active town player), in a way that conveniently lets him vote for whoever he needs to later. I have bolded every time he references another player who was living at the time. Do you see something missing there?

Why, he never said anything about Natsu. He talked to him, never about him. He never gave us his reads on his scumbuddy. As if he didn't want people thinking too much about Natsu's alignment.

Now come out and play, people. There's a lynching to be made. Apathetic town is just what scum wants!

[jachawk]

Hi witch_hunter,
Welcome to the game

But seeing that you replaced in about 2 pages ago, I might be a bit late

[jachawk]

You especially don't need to go through your own predecessor's posts going "man what a good post" "oh boy something else I agree with" etc. ad infinitum. You have no reason to confirm your predecessor was Town in your own eyes - you've seen your Role PM. As for us, you can talk about your predecessor's posts if you like, but only in a way that adds value or expands on them. Not as a cheerleader. Tread your predecessor as you. Stop patting yourself on the back. It's fucking annoying for one. And for another, that kindof thing is a form of mindset acclimatization I seen much more often in Scum replacements.

I dont agree with what this post says, witch_hunter's way of posting provides two separate perspectives on the same topic. Considering that this is a conf town slot, revisiting the posts earlier makes a lot of sense. I believe you should have been able to see this if you had been seeing things from a pro-town mindset.

Also, it appears you have spent more words criticizing witch_hunter rather than trying to hunt scum. Your reaction does not provide anything meaningful to town and seems to say 'Shit, I am outed as scum'.

VOTE: Maestro

[tojam2]

I'm happy with that lynch, welcome Witch_Hunter. VOTE: Maestro

About my playstyle, atm my playstyle is naturally scummy, you've seen Natsu's earlier posts about my previous games I hope, although I have only been lynched on the last day or not at all, so it's working somehow.

[Natsu]

You make a good case Witchhunter, even though I'm suspect number two.

VOTE: Maestro

[Maestro]

You all might as well take time today to discuss what happens when I flip Town. I can only phone post so it's not like I can stop this.

[Witch_Hunter]

Good to meet you all, people!

In case I'm not alive to post this later: Natsu, you're a pretty good player. But you're scum, and you should hang tomorrow.

[Witch_Hunter]

You all might as well take time today to discuss what happens when I flip Town. I can only phone post so it's not like I can stop this.

That one's easy: in such an unlikely event, the game would end, we'd all congratulate the scumteam for the victory, and personally, I'd share a part of the blame for the town's loss. There's not much to discuss about it.

But you know what? I really don't think that's happening today. We will have a D4 and you know it.

[Zaicon]

Final Vote Count - Day 3

Maestro (4):

Witch_Hunter, jachawk, tojam2, Natsu

tojam2 (1):

Maestro

jachawk (1):

Ruku

No Vote (0)

Maestro,

Vanilla Townie

, has been lynched!

Ruku,

Vanilla Townie

, has been endgamed!
tojam2,

Vanilla Townie

, has been endgamed!
Witch_Hunter,

Town 1-Shot Bulletproof

, has been endgamed!

jachawk,

Mafia Roleblocker

, wins the game!
Natsu,

Mafia Goon

, wins the game!

Night 1 Actions

PhantomCobalt jails MochaMan.
Natsu kills PhantomCobalt.
jachawk roleblocks mykonian

Night 2 Actions

Natsu kills MochaMan.

Mafia Thread
Dead Thread

[Maestro]

You were saying...?

You didn't even have to lynch me yet. Jesus.
I've had to phoneposting for days and you just couldn't let it go.

[Witch_Hunter]

Well, I AM sorry about that. But you did act scummy.

Scumteam, congratulations. You both played well, and jachawk completely pulled the wool over my eyes.

Fellow townies, sorry about misreading at a crucial moment.

[Natsu]

I was sweating bullets at your catch-up posts Witch Hunter. You were so unbelievably close on a few of them, particularly the active + inactive scum team thing. I thought for sure I was getting lynched next, but Maestro got super antagonistic towards you for some reason, and made himself look very scummy for seemingly forgetting that you were confirmed town.
I also was really hoping people would forget about my early post about acting "super town." Even at the time, I was acting like it and said the opposite in order to divert attention, but the polarization was plainly there. You were really the first to pick up on that.

If Mochaman stayed, I think we might have still won. I think town was leaning towards a Tojam lynch anyways.
Great game guys.
~ Sincerely Natsu, The towniest town to have ever towned.