Open 588 Pick Your Poison -- Game Over
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Drezi
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Drezi Goon
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In post 16, acryon wrote:What's this about Drezi? Do we know each other?
Why of course, it's a personal vendetta, all board the Acryon Express!-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 24, deathfisaro wrote:Okay someone who is not Drezi, Victor, or croboss give me a good town reason to build a half lynch wagon on the first page.
I can see how scum can benefit from such actions but hard to find a reason for me join in.
What do you all think of this post? It feels like dropping by only to say "hi, im not scum".
In post 35, deathfisaro wrote:usually a quickbuilt wagon lacks a good case with valid reasons attached to the votes, thus not only can scums lynch town but vote analysis post flip would give little clues as to which of them were opportunistic scums
+ taking the chance to contribute to a non-existant case.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: deathfisaro-
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Drezi Goon
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Yeah, I don't have a problem with being wrong since:
In post 56, Riabi wrote:we are in the early game and we don't have a lot to go on, our best bet is to pressure anything that looks remotely scummy, and see how everyone reacts to said pressure.
Also I really don't like this argument:
In post 55, House wrote:When you see scummy shit right off the bat, 9 times out of 10, it's coming from town. Scum are too busy being careful and trying to blend in.
First of all generalisations don't work, and obviously we can't just ignore scummy behavior regardless of alignment, if it's town they had something in mind for acting that way, if it goes ignored forever, what was the point?
In post 54, Riabi wrote:
I don't like this post, I really don't like this post. Someone who has played as many games as you have House should know this
The way this is phrased and the scolding subtly overdramatizes the weight of this case imo.
In post 62, Riabi wrote:Deathfisario I'd say probably leans town.
What made you lean towards town in his posts?
I'm happy with my vote for now-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 97, VictorDeAngelo wrote:I don't like House's vote in 93. Ton's of people have been speculating and I don't see why Lal should be singled out.
That's such a troll vote-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 102, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Are you saying my vote is trollish or House's vote is?
House's.
In post 92, House wrote:She seems to know there is an IC and is trying to push Cyanide based on her knowledge.
If this is supposed to be his reason for voting, that is.
Lalendra voted Cyanide saying:
In post 90, Lalendra wrote:OR this is scum who knows that there is an IC and is trying to rationalize why he might know that so that when the IC is discovered, and it seems like he knew too much, he can just go "well I said right in this post here that I was just assuming based on the completed games!"
Which is wrong, but apparently House did not vote her for making a case against somene with incorrect reasoning (That would be weird btw after defending deathfisaro, saying that scum can't possibly make such a mistake). He voted her saying that she seems to know there is an IC and uses that knowledge, while it's pretty evident that her case was thatIFCyanide is scum and there is an IC, he'd obviously know that, and he's trying to rationalize why he knows that. (CYANIDE already explained why this doesn't really make sense in 91).-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 114, SIR CYANIDE wrote:Hammerer: claim
IC: I'm IC
Hammerer: pm to mods so we know you are IC
Wagonners: yeah go pm the mods
IC: no, I'll do it first thing next day
Hammerer: no, you have to pm the mod or you're getting a hammer
IC: I'll do it the first thing next day, we're not in LyLo, if I don't do it the next day you can still lynch me, blahblahblah
Hammerer&Wagonners: *more discussion ensues*
Wagonners: unvote: IC
Wagonners: vote Player2 (L-1)
Player2: actually I'm IC
...
Player3: no, actually I'm IC
Back to square one.
OR
NL
random townie (not ic claim) found dead.
Lynch IC claim, when he can't confirm.
Repeat.
And imagine this situation when we don't even have an IC. Scum knows if that's the case.
Where's the +value?-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 118, House wrote:You clearly don't know how IC works.
You clearly don't understand what I'm saying.-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 119, SIR CYANIDE wrote:In example one, the IC makes an incorrect play by immediately counterclaiming.
My examples are both the continuations of your example2, which is in the quote. Read it as such, noone is counterclaiming immediately.-
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi Goon
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Guys please.
We try to lynch someone. He claims IC, tells us to spare him, he'll confirm himself the next day.
NOONE COUNTERCLAIMS.
We simply try and lynch the next person.
He claims IC too, telling us to spare him he's the real one, he'll confirm the next day.
NOONE COUNTERCLAIMS.
We try to lynch someone again....
And everyone is a claimed IC, who'll confirm next day, so we're back where we started, only way out of the lynch is to use IC ability for real and get mod confirmed.
OR we have my situation two.
We let the IC claim live and confirm next day and we go NL.
Scum DOES NOT kill the IC claim, kills random townie.
Next day we still don't know shit about the IC claim since he wasn't NK-d, we're in the same place with +1 town dead, IC has to confirm, or get's lynched, just like the day before.-
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi Goon
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In post 153, House wrote:In post 134, Drezi wrote:It makes no difference, if one can be spared because of an IC claim without actually proving it, then why would anyone go down willingly?
Stop posting stupidity or I WILL vote you.
...
In post 133, SIR CYANIDE wrote:I did not necessarily recommend people claiming IC, I just recommended people not counterclaiming IC.
He wanted to make sure, that real IC does not counterclaim. That is correct, noone is arguing that.
What I demonstrated in my examples, is that there's no value to be gain from letting an IC claim pass for a day without proof like Cyanide has shown in his examples,the one and only answer to the IC claim is "prove it right now, or get rekt"so the real IC will have no reed to counterclaim in order to get the lynch through anyway.
You're not as smart as you think you are, so do us all a favor and stop acting like a condescending jerk (or I WILL vote you ), this game is meant to be recreational and fun.-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 175, SIR CYANIDE wrote:sadly you didn't convince anyone because nobody had a contrary opinion.
The hell, it was none other than you that promted my reply, by bringing up a case where we don't lynch the claim right away, and let him live and conf next day for value..
In post 153, House wrote:or I WILL vote you.
The I will vote you part is a sarcastic remark to this.
And my "projection" is a remark to this shit:
In post 55, House wrote:Do you always assume your adversary is an idiot? Because if so, you're simply projecting.
In post 127, House wrote:... resisting... urge... to vote... stupid.
In post 153, House wrote:Stop posting stupidity
In post 154, House wrote:Now you're posting stupidity too?
Who's calling everyone else stupid?...-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 114, SIR CYANIDE wrote:IC: no, I'll do it first thing next day
Hammerer: no, you have to pm the mod or you're getting a hammer
IC: I'll do it the first thing next day, we're not in LyLo, if I don't do it the next day you can still lynch me, blahblahblah
Hammerer&Wagonners: *more discussion ensues*
Wagonners: unvote: IC
~~
IT IS NOW NIGHT 1
IC, who was not actually IC but vanilla town, has been found dead
In post 181, House wrote:What I took from Cyanide's use of the word day was r/l day, not game Day.
:^)-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 201, SIR CYANIDE wrote:In post 187, acryon wrote:Agreed, it's useless at this point. It can only really aid scum in finding who is a PR by the way people approach the topic.
For the love of all that is good, can we stop talking about the setup? If scum hasn't figured out who the PRs are already, then they will if people don't shut up.
No it doesn't. Ask yourself, do you have any idea who the PRs/IC are? You don't, because WIFOM fucks up every reason you may have for it + lurkers who haven't given any input about anything are null reads and they may be power roles as well. I remember analyzing newbie games about scum and doc finding PRs in N1 and the amount of times they succeeded was exactly the amount of times you'd expect them to if their votes were cast completely random. I'm talking exactly the amount, down to the decimal point.
They won't figure out anything.
I think you guys are arguing the two extreme ends of the spectrum, and the truth is somewhere inbetween.
I agree that generally people overestimate the reliability of tells and such, so I don't think we need to get overly paranoid over discussing such topics, if it boosts an otherwise low activity or might be useful in some way.
However it's going to a bit far to say that WIFOM renders every clue useless. It might be so as early as D1 in a void, but later with additional context you can still make a read/guess as to how far you believe the person in question went in the wifom circle, which should be at least a bit better than writing it off as completely random.-
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Drezi Goon
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As for the wagon on Cyanide, I'm against it.
No, I'm not townreading him, and you are holding some valid points against him that make me wary too, however I believe that lynching him D1 would not be beneficial for the town gameplan. Regardless of his alignment Cyanide generates a lot of activity and responses with content (as NJAC pointed out too), and not just fluff talk. Letting him do that a bit more (that doesn't mean giving him a free pass due to this infinitely) is better, than lynching him right off the bat, while we could lynch someone else with a similar chance of being scum, but without the upsides.
In post 219, Count Dooku wrote:In post 177, croboss wrote:you guys post wayyy too much i can hardly catch up
You should be happy when the town makes content (if you are town). The more content we do, the more chance we have to lynch correctly. scum<-- In itself, what he said is only fluff, null
In post 177, croboss wrote:Who actually claimed IC? I can't find it where someone actually claimed?
It is obvious that nobody claimed IC. A town player would read through the thread. scum<-- scummy yes, but we're talking about a new player here so I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt for now.
In post 177, croboss wrote:haha I guess I'm pretty bad at mafia
See the end of post 185. scum<-- end of 185 is true, but croboss saying that is not alignment indicative, it could semijustify a vote more like for PL reasons.
In post 177, croboss wrote:VOTE: Sir Cyanide
This is ridiculous. Jump on the biggest wagon, without saying anything 'why'? scum<-- I don't like croboss' vote either, but the case against him still feels weak.
In post 215, croboss wrote:I must confess that my reason for the vote on Sir Cyanide was to generate discussion
First of all: why would we believe you? You can just be scum, who tried to jump on the biggest wagon, and after you realised, you try to get away with (a bad) excuse. To make it clear: Neither I am scumreading you nor townreading based on this post. It isnull.
Second: you want more content? You said that we post way too much... and you wnat more content? I won't buy it. Nice contradiction btw. scum<-- That's a legit point, however.
Comparing this to Dooku's original post, he depicted every quote from croboss as red ->scumwhich is way too forced and other than these, he's only asked questions and commented on minor things here and there so far.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Count Dooku-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 249, Count Dooku wrote:In post 228, Drezi wrote:<-- In itself, what he said is only fluff, null
What do you mean? What I said is fluff, or what crobosss said?
what croboss said
In post 228, Drezi wrote:<-- scummy yes, but we're talking about a new player here so I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt for now.
This is a very bad tactic. You cannot read someone less scummy, only because he is a newbie... First, why are you sure that he has never played a mafia game? Second, reading through the game is actually something, that has nothing to do with experience. What you did here is pretty much defending him with no valid reason.
You can't read someone's actions in their first game the same way, as someone who's played several games. I'm more likely to believe that getting lost "wait guys what's going on" is sincere in his case.
In post 228, Drezi wrote:however when it comes to Dooku, in post 185 addressing me, and his question in post 186 it appears that he himself only skimmed the thread at best, and he's not a new player.
Haha . That is all I can say. Could you tell me why do you think that I didn't read the thread? I can help: you don't really think it. You just wanted to throw more and more shit at me.
Oh really? You try to contribute saying that my threat to House "or I WILL vote you" is nonsense, I can't vote someone for being a jerk, when 1) it's obviously sarcasm if you look at the whole context 2) I even EXPLICITLY clarified that it was sarcasm in 178. As for your post 186 we have THREE PAGES discussing the whole IC case, with several detailed explanations and rundowns, reading it would answer every question..
In post 228, Drezi wrote:<-- end of 185 is true, but croboss saying that is not alignment indicative, it could semijustify a vote more like for PL reasons.
That is clearly not PL reason. Even you said that you think that the end of 185 is true. It is not PL anymore. That is a legit scumread.
I agreed that you shouldn't call yourself bad, because it makes you useless, hard to take seriously or read properly, and lynching such players is PL. New player saying sorry I'm bad, can come from either alignment.
Okay. Since everything you didn't find legit is legit actually (your reasons against my case were "it is fluff" "it is scummy, but he is a newbie" "I agree with you, but I still think that would be a PL", + there is this last comment where even you stated that it is legit. And you still think that my case is weak?In post 228, Drezi wrote:<-- That's a legit point, however.
Yes, you're preying on the easiest target, you compiled a plenty of weak or wrong arguments, and made them all definitive indicators of being scum, while you are guilty of one of those things yourself, and now your defense/plain denying of certain parts, plus automatically attacking me for my observatios, hasn't really convinced me.-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 259, Count Dooku wrote:newbie=/= stupid. He can fake everything. I used this newbie/bad play/low experience card in my first game. I was scum.
You having done the same thing would explain why you think this is the case now aswell. I'm not saying he's stupid or that he can't be scum. I think I made it clear that I believe it's simply not alignment indicative. That means what you're saying is possible, but not the only explanation, like you seem to think.
^
And this is the exactly my problem.
In post 259, Count Dooku wrote:And you have a problem with my weak reasons
NOT that they are weak, but the fact that you're portraying everything as definite evidence, and not looking at the problem from every perspective.-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 368, acryon wrote:In post 366, pisskop wrote:I thought it was a relatively town thing for Dooku to do.
I picture young Dooku getting ready for high school, and it seems like a pro-town thing to say.
Doesn't town lose a lot of edge by saying that before the catch-up posts even come? Because now any scum doing catch-up posts will simply post with that statement from Dooku in mind.
Actually I'm seconding Dooku's statement.
Also what can scum do about it? Write a non-towny catchup post? It's only a reminder for town, not to be overwhelmed feeling "omg so town" while reading a catchup post, but read it carefully and judge it for what it is instead. He probably remembered to say this after reading Rachmarie's post, thus the timing.
UNVOTE: Count Dooku
This makes one less thing going against the possibility of scum!croboss.-
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In post 375, acryon wrote:I think it also actively discourages actual townies from making longer more solid catch-up posts in fear of them being written off as scum/disingenuous.
Absolutely not, making a solid pro-town post is not something to fear regardless, simply we need to stay open minded, and not consider some people town for granted because of that.
Btw if it came down to a lynch between croboss and House which would you prefer?-
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In post 379, pisskop wrote:In post 355, acryon wrote:In post 354, Count Dooku wrote:In post 347, RachMarie wrote:I will try to catch up all
Nice.
@everyone
I want you guys to keep in mind while you read these catch-up posts that it is easier to make catch-up posts/reads look towny.
What is this? Some kind of weird disclaimer on Rach's catch-up posts?to paint them black before people even read
He made no comment about Rach specifically. I'm positive you knew the difference between the two statements; the one CD made, and what you rephrased it as.
Well this is weird. I disagreed with acryon regarding the red part.
On the other hand, you seem to argue that it wasn't about Rach and it's not logical to draw a connection there etc., while it obviously IS a disclaimer on Rach's post,as well as the other catch-ups too. And I did not think there was a problem with that.-
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In post 383, SIR CYANIDE wrote:but he's voting for dooku without much of an argument and seemingly very little thought behind it. He's just observing the debate and then casually injecting some fluff/random comments about how the game is going and someone's thoughts and then BAM, croboss did this and that in post X and he is scum vote croboss.
I'm sorry, come again?-
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In post 387, pisskop wrote:I could as easily claim you wanted to me to picture the arguement in its 'Hitler Loved Dogs' form.
That's the exact opposite of this case.-
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Ok, I'll be honest it might be due to cognitive dissonance, since I've just unvoted him, but I don't really get all the heat Dooku is getting now.
In post 474, Riabi wrote:I think it's possible that you're mad because someone called you on your scum slip.
I mean that's quite a reach really.
This whole case revolves around his intentions behind that post about catch-ups, and how he lost his temper trying to explain it over and over, since everyone seems to think it's super scummy or even a scumslip.
So where's your vote? Last time you did not have a problem with changing votes even within an hour.
What I found scummy about Dooku was how he painted everything croboss was doing as definite evidence of being scum, while the case wasn't that black/white imo, but after he explained how he did the very same things as newbscum, I can see how it would draw his judgement towards that strong scumread.
Also what he said about catch up posts is something I lost a game to once, when everyone went crazy and unvoted the wagon I wanted to get lynched, because of the omg so-town catchup posts after a replace on the slot, so yeah I can see town intentions aswell behind that post.-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 495, Riabi wrote:I didn't like that he's warning us about Rach's (or anyone else's) potential catch up before the post is even there.
What that's kind of the point though.
Would you prefer the situation as:
Rach: hi guys, catching up, my reads are as follows...
Dooku: guys it's easy to make catchup posts look towny!
If anythingthatcould look more like trying to discredit the post right away, without regard to the actual content.
Doing it beforehand is more of neutral course of action, since we don't have an actual post to judge at that point, it's a reminder not to be town-biased with reads due to the nature of catchups.-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 500, House wrote:In post 497, Drezi wrote:In post 495, Riabi wrote:about Rach's (or anyone else's) potential catch upI didn't like that he's warning usbefore the post is even there.
What that's kind of the point though.
Would you prefer the situation as:
Rach: hi guys, catching up, my reads are as follows...
Dooku: guys it's easy to make catchup posts look towny!
If anythingthatcould look more like trying to discredit the post right away, without regard to the actual content.
Doing it beforehand is more of neutral course of action, since we don't have an actual post to judge at that point, it's a reminder not to be town-biased with reads due to the nature of catchups.
That's complete bs.
As he is scum, he knows whether Rach is town or not and preempting her catch up post is just as scummy as posting it after.
And as a response to the red parts, I elaborated how that timing is not worse at the very least, than doing it afterwards. If you find that scummy regardless of the timing, it's a different matter, I don't hold that against you.
That being said, if I wanted to scumread him for that statement, it would be wifomy reasons - him wanting to look townie by warning us (even at the cost of possibly appearing scummy to some,which normally scum would avoid!), and not the warning itself being the main case againt him.-
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In post 580, Metalcyanide wrote:Hey, I'm done reading. There is a ton of useless information in the last 24 pages
I'm not going to make reads on everyone. I left my notes at home and really a lot of you are null reads anyways.
Really the only thing I want to jump on right now is Dooku wagon, he was very defensive and took up a lot of pages being angry about people asking him about the disclaimer thing. In addition I feel like the Croboss vote early on seemed like he knew he was after an easy target. Also, while his exit from this game was less than graceful I'm trying not to hold RL stuff against him.
VOTE: Count Dooku
Feel free to question me on anything
Hey there, in your last post you mentioned:
In post 564, Metalcyanide wrote:As of where I am Sir Cyanide is on my radar as is Death.
But it ended up as "lots of useless information in the last 24 pages, everyone is null"?
People removed votes from you due to croboss replacing out, and now that everyone seems to have forgotten about that, you just chill out and join the largest wagon repeating the reasons others have given?
Well that doesn't quite work for me.
VOTE: Metalcyanide-
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for pisskop bringing up soft
In post 637, Sakura Hana wrote:I don't see why any town would bring forth asoft-claim when such person hasn't died yetpossible
It's scum's job to hunt for PRs, it's town's job to hunt for scum.
Unvote
Vote: pisskop
while
In post 523, SIR CYANIDE wrote:248 and 241 together in such quick succession is softclaiming IC to me.
no mention of this and townread?
Also there was no mention of croboss in your reads before, can you share your thoughts now wrt that whole debate around him?-
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Ugh all these replacements...
Anyway this instahammer after getting in and "will read tonight" like seriously? did he just replace into a scum slot, saw that he was the other wagon, hammer away and will try to play the "too scummy to be actually scum" card? why would town in their right mind hammer someone without reading the thread, DL isn't even close..-
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In post 867, House wrote:Stop trying to distract town with associative hunting preflip, Drezi.
If you want to scumread someone, you need to be able to form scumteams around them. If you have a hard time seeing him as a team with most of the other players, chances are higher that your read might be wrong. Yes we have distancing and bussing, but it's something to consider with all of this taken into account.
Also if you just keep telling people what they're doing is bad, useless etc. it just starts making them apathetic, and they'll be less and less likely to bring forth possible clues and cases, which might have been useful. I hope you can see how anti-town that is on your part. If you think something isn't productive explain why you think so, and offer a better course of action etc.-
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In post 790, Nachomamma8 wrote:Ok, gonna have time to work with this game tomorrow, would very much appreciate if Metal wasn't lynched before then
In post 877, Nachomamma8 wrote:The wagon building on Ika because quick hammer is dumb as shit because it is being formed because quick hammer and no other reason except "quick hammer".
Oh hold your horses, it's a quickhammer by someone who just replaced in, also you specifically asked not to lynch Metal before you have to chance to contribute, he did it anyway and now you're here saying how stupid it is to vote him?
If nothing more it's a good shot at seeing who'll jump on the easy wagon as it happened indeed. He's still yet to explain his vote btw.
The thing that makes me hesitant about scumreading the slot (even though my last read of Dooku was town) is that the scumpartners I could see him with are [nacho, pisskop and maybe sakura] and 2-3 out of 9 is too few for the odds to look good for such a team.
Seeing your entry though I wonder..-
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In post 897, Nachomamma8 wrote:Or, to be more explicit, why was Ika so afraid of getting mislynched where he decided to bring himself into the spotlight he did? Do you think he just didn't know it would bring him attention? You thought maybe he went "yep no one is gonna question this whatsoever"...?
Quite the contrary, it's a very controversial move, and everyone is gonna be talking about that, overshadowing the prior case against him which earned him all the votes up until that point. And he can get away with it easier since "why would scum bring himself into the spotlight, it was a dumb non alignment indicative move nothing more, let's move on guys".-
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Drezi Goon
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In post 904, Nachomamma8 wrote:"Pay no attention to me guys, I'm just an idiot!"
Drezi, do you truly believe that's a defense scum would come up with?
In post 906, Nachomamma8 wrote:As in look in your heart of hearts and tell me you believe that so either you open your eyes a little bit or I get a good hearty laugh out of this whole situation.
But the first one is a strawman, and why the AtE?-
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi Goon
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In post 884, Nachomamma8 wrote:and I don't really feel this playerlist is the type to kick you into doing that.
Based on your attitude, right now I think that you believe you can just save your scumbuddy easy peasy here.-
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi Goon
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In post 913, Nachomamma8 wrote:Please explain the functional difference between what you said and what I said.
What you said doesn't describe the situation like at all. I feel like I'm repeating myself but anyway. It's not a situation where a scum comes up with a defense in the first place. It's a situation where he grabs the opportunity to seal the deal and make sure the other wagon gets lynched, and it has no real drawbacks for him since:
1) the attention from the original case against him will shift towards his questionable hammer - he was already in the center of attention (along with metal) with his 4 votes and still will be, but with a different topic
2) some people are bound to take the stance you took, where you think it's stupid to vote him for that, and when others push for a lynch it'll look like a weaker case, since we overlook the original stuff he had going against him, and will just be like "hey we can't lynch him for a QH that's stupid'"
so for scum it could be a quick decision: town lynched over him for sure - attention shifted to a wifomy debate of hammer.
as town, what makes this play less likely is the fact that a townie normally wouldn't just go and get someone lynched without establishing a read (he just replaced in, wasn't in the game before) and deducing that there's a better than average chance of lynching scum. for scum it makes no difference obviously.
now you ask if there's a significant difference or not between the scum and town motivation here. well of course it could be stupid/yolo play from either alignment, but it doesn't really matter if the difference is slight or significant, the fact itself that he chose to act like this alone is worth voting him for, as regardless of his alignment it gets people to jump on the wagon with various excuses and reasons, and others to defend him, and as I said, even your vote is a result of this, so yeah a multipurpose wagon is not dumb any way I look at it.-
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi Goon
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In post 703, NJAC wrote:Dooku/Remin's wagon is the wrong wagon. If I have to pick some scummy names from that wagon I'd say Victor, Metal and maybe Riabi.
Anyway Hana/fisaro is scum for sure.
@pisskop: stop playing silly and get your vote back to Hana.
In post 930, NJAC wrote:Sakura is also town.
what made you change your mind about her?
I don't have too strong feeling against the NJAC wagon (definitely no lynch before ika posts though!) but you haven't really mentioned him before other than being less contentful, and now you're just placing a vote, explain?
In post 848, pisskop wrote:I fully believe that at least 2 out of the 3 scums are new(er) insofar as they killed SC.
also I don't get this thought process, looks like you believe experienced scum wouldn't choose SC for the NK, so you think there are 2 newer scum at least. Wouldn't the non-new scum dissuade them from the "bad" NK anyway by that logic?-
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi Goon
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that's a relief though, sorry Sakura, I got paranoid when you started questioning me about not approaching you
we'll be 9 after an NK, so an ika PL would mean LyLo the next day.-
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi
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Drezi Goon
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Drezi Goon
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