NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)

[Bulbazak]

/confirm

I can already tell it's going to be that kind of game...

[Bulbazak]

Vote Emeraldemon

Saying stuff after game begins that could have easily been said in confirmation stage means it's only for towncred.

[Bulbazak]

Well, that's all I needed.

Unvote

Vote Garmr

Just wanted to make sure that my thoughts on a Garmr/Emo scum team were not unfounded.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: Bulbazak.

I love the sound of chainsaw in the morning.

Well, that's all I needed.

Unvote

Vote Garmr

Just wanted to make sure that my thoughts on a Garmr/Emo scum team were not unfounded.

Bulba the fuck are you on about

A lot of the pregame Emo exchange didn't feel natural, leading me to the conclusion that there was some scum theatre going on. I didn't think all 3 were scum, just Emo and one of her attackers. I just didn't know which one. Garmr's posts have not been at the level I expected to see from him as town. Not only that, but he is focused on the popular wagons, as seen with the Aegor wagon (And let's not even get started with calling a 1v1 but not committing to it.). I actually agree that Garmr's push on Aegor is opportunistic and he's misrepped him several times, but I wanted to make sure about the connection I saw before I voted, and I still didn't want to let go of Emerald, since I was still trying to figure out his alignment (leaning town, btw). Then Emo hard defended Garmr from Aegor, which solidified the connection I had made in pregame (the whole dayvig thing was fake). And guess what happened? If you guessed she chainsawed some more and voted me after I voted Garmr, you just won a new car.

[Bulbazak]

IYO she's that much of a Newb to so obviously connect to her partner D1, out of RVS?

I don't think she saw herself as being obvious.

[Bulbazak]

So you decided to cut off all discussion regarding his actions?

[Bulbazak]

I don't care what he says, it is noise. I care why you are making associations of two unflipped players.

Because that's how I scum hunt. I look for scum motivation and intent in posts, and I also look at connections that can be used later for PoE. Sometimes those connections can make all the difference, and if you are successful in figuring out the scum team early, you can knock them down like dominoes.

QT was open at the time, so seeing that all three of your scum mates are not PR, he goes and attempts to use a day vig as a trap?

Day vig gambits are very common on the site, and as a result, they're fairly well known to be fake a large percentage of the time. That means that such a gambit is not hard to fake as scum. I wouldn't award any sort of towncred for that gambit, especially not when made in pregame, where there is no way a mod would actually accept the actions of a dayvig.

1) Bulba's "accusation" doesn't look at all serious to me, it was the first time in his ISO (3 posts total) that he'd mentioned either one of you.

Actually, it's pretty serious, especially for the early game. I have very good scumreads on the pair, and I plan to pursue them.

[Bulbazak]

So he thought Garmr/Emo scum team might be unfounded, but now he is sure Garmr/emo scum team is not unfounded.

Yes, it's called reading and observing actions. The only thing that made me think there might be a connection between you 2 was my feeling that the pregame back and forth was scum theatre. I needed a lot more to go on to pursue it seriously, and I much preferred pressuring others. Garmr started scumming the place up, and then you started defending him and his actions against all who came. The pieces fell into place, and I pursued my read.

I defend Garmr by stating my town read on him and ask him to explain why Garmr/emo scum team is no longer unfounded. He responds stating that I was chainsawing Garmr.

You were explaining? Funny, when I look in the dictionary, I do not see "the process of attacking a person and voting them" under the definition of explaining.

Now why do I need to wait for Garmr to respond when I want Bulbazak to explain his reads since his attack is on Garmr/Emogirl, not Garmr independently?

The logical course of action would have been to ask me about my read. Instead, you attacked me right out of the gate, and furthermore, you just focused on Garmr, and not yourself or the connection between you 2. But if you feel you have to continue defending this lie since you backed yourself into a corner, go right ahead.

Actually, it's pretty serious, especially for the early game. I have very good scumreads on the pair, and I plan to pursue them.

...yup now you're not making sense.
Do tell.

I feel I've been pretty clear. I had an early inclination of possible scum theatre. I watched Garmr scum it up and wondered if I was right. I then saw Emo defend him against all his accusers. After that I voted and pursued my reads. What are you unclear on?

[Bulbazak]

You misunderstand the point I was trying to make. I don't think Garmr was aware that this game was mountainous. This is likely to be because he is not scum. ISO him for proof.

He may have just not been aware of the actual definition of mountainous. I, for example, thought mountainous games were games where town outnumbered scum by a larger amount than the typical 1:3 ratio.

P-edit: Yes, at the very bottom of the post where you vote and attack me for voting Garmr.

[Bulbazak]

If he had read the opening post he'd know this game has no PRs. I'm saying that what you're trying to use to clear him is something that can easily be faked as scum.

[Bulbazak]

I don't see him admitting that he wasn't aware there were no PRs at the time of my initial post if he was scum.

Yes, because there's absolutely no reason scum would lie.

[Bulbazak]

After his 124, I was ready to attack the first person that dropped an actual case for Garmr.

an actual case for Garmr.

actual case

actual case

[Bulbazak]

So you suggest that every scum push must have no case?

No, I didn't say anything of the kind. What you just said was that you were ready to attack

anybody

who made

an actual case

on Garmr. Not just a case, but an

actual

case. Do you know what the connotation of that is? That means that you prepared yourself to vote for anybody who had a

genuine

reason to find Garmr to be scum and lynch him. A genuine reason. That means that you were preparing yourself to vote town with a case against Garmr, meaning that you

knew

Garmr's alignment. You say that you're not defending him? I call bull crap, because you admitted yourself that you prepared yourself to vote the first town with an actual case. This wasn't a spur of the moment decision. It was a premeditated action to keep a wagon from forming on Garmr.

I didn't say scum wouldn't lie.

That's funny. You seem to be implying it.

I don't see scum lying about knowing there aren't PRs in the game, only to retract later and admit he didn't know.

I absolutely do not find it a null tell. It is incredibly scummy.

I agree that it is a null tell on you for being this.

Words. Learn to use them.

Unvote

Vote Emogirl123

We can argue about Garmr later, but we have guaranteed scum right here.

[Bulbazak]

We can argue about Garmr later, but we have guaranteed scum right here.

I can sort out this right here I'm town so no need for latter.

Why would you being town make Emo town?

[Bulbazak]

If this were not mountainous, I would try everything I could to have both you and Emo annihilated utterly.

What does it being mountainous have to do with anything?

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's harping on the use of the phrase 'actual case' to derive the idea that emogirl has admitted she wants to vote town is just craplogic in extremis.

It's a very odd and unnatural way to phrase things. I could understand if she said she saw a bad case on a townread, or if she said she was watching the development of the Garmr wagon looking for opportunistic scum, but no, she said she was

preparing

, meaning premeditation, to vote whoever provided an

actual

, i.e. genuine (something that scum can't do), case on Garmr. Say it's crap logic all you want to, but that one sentence provided a valuable insight into her thought process and showed scum motivation in her intent.

Maybe he's just bad enough to think that two players derping around in pre-game is an actual indication of a scum link, but the alternative hypothesis, which is more charitable about his ability and less about his motives, seems totally plausible.

Something felt off about the interaction, and it made me wonder if we were looking at scum theatre. And as far as scum theatre goes, pregame is the safest place to pull it off.

also just saw this - the progression from "lol is this scumtheatre?" THEN to "dual scumreads after a possible chainsaw" doesn't really make sense to me, but I might not be understanding correctly

I saw possible scum theatre in pregame. I started getting a slight scumread on Garmr once the game began, but I wanted to figure out Emerald first. Emo starts hard defending Garmr left and right, finally attacking his attacker after Garmr called a 1v1. Everything snapped into place for me, and I pursued my read.

he's being pretty annoyingly unuseful

Hey! I've found scum. What are you doing?

[Bulbazak]

I'm voting the same person you are 2 spots ahead of you but remaining confused about what looks like your general lack of commitment to this supposedly-strong Scumteam-read of yours.

"Susptected Scum theatre" + "was correct???" = *votehope between them* doesn't look like a logical trajectory.

I felt more confident in my Emo read. I still think they're both scum, but after going back and forth with Emo, my scumread on her is a bit stronger.

[Bulbazak]

What part didn't I acknowledge? I thought I touched on everything.

[Bulbazak]

#170 - this is actually the only post from emogirl I don't like. The rest of it is null.

What don't you like about it?

[Bulbazak]

'Actual case' and 'Genuine town motivation' are not two things that a reasonable person acting in good faith would think are the same.

Acting in good faith?

Clearly, 'actual case' is to be contrasted with 'pressure vote' or 'random vote,' not 'fake case.'

And how does that change the interpretation? That just means she was ready to attack any case, or were you thinking she was planning on attacking a different type of case, and how would that not contrast with "fake case"?

Your mindset reads like "Can I find a definition of 'actual case' that would make her sound scummy, then imply that's what she meant even though it clearly wasn't?"

No, that phrasing did not feel natural to me, which was why I noticed it. And even if we were to ignore her particular word choice, the way she has gone about with her attack and her explanations since then point to the mindset that I have outlined. This is not some bit of semantic trickery. The intent behind that sentence was the same regardless of whether you buy the definition of "actual" or not. She meant to attack those that presented a case on Garmr. It was not spur of the moment. She admits to wanting to shut down discussion on him. She says it's to protect her townread, but when pressed, she couldn't give an adequate answer why this should be the case, since she admitted to ignoring most of Garmr's posts. Then when she was called out on defending Garmr, she backtracks and said that she was defending herself by defending Garmr, which is BS. So go ahead and criticize my interpretation of that one sentence. It still doesn't change her actions, which happen to back up that interpretation.

Because, seriously, what scum would actually say 'I want to attack town players?'

Want town says that?

Can you give me any examples of 'scum theater' you've seen in the past?

I've probably seen it, but none readily spring to mind. It's an association thing, and a lot of times it's more subtle than what was done here.

'Pregame is the safest place to pull it off' is just an assertion - seems to me pre-game is the absolute worst time to distance, since it draws attention to/makes people pissed off with both of you, and it doesn't actually work as distancing because you're not really putting your partner at risk.

Not having any risk is why pregame is the safest place to pull off scum theatre. People don't refrain from scumhunting in pregame. In fact, it's a good time to start working on early reads so as to end RVS earlier than usual, perhaps even bypassing it. As such, it is still possible to distance without risk, as town still might award towncred based on certain actions. Seriously, why would the first thought of the 3-way between Emo, Garmr, and Kabooom be that there are scum distancing in the argument? And it's for that reason why distancing can work especially well in pregame: a lot of reward for zero risk. I just thought that there were interactions there that seemed fake, which made me think part of it was planned.

Calling it 'scum theater' just sounds like a cheap excuse to sling some mud to me.

I'm guessing that you just ignored any information that was in pregame then.

Just to add to the above, I doubt it is to play her own meta to her advantage. She linked some games where she did something similar calling a player a VI, then proceed to suggesting a policy lynch. It is the similar situation here. I don't see why scum Maenara would attempt to play her town meta as scum in such a way where the targeted player would never get lynched and she would receive scrutiny from anyone that knows that a policy lynch means.

Yes, I can't understand why scum would choose to play like they are town.

The irony is, Maenara can be our default policy lynch. I don't see the reason for multiple people to point out her posts are bad.

We're not lynching scum based on who is the most annoying.

Pray tell what are the criteria for lynching scum?

[Bulbazak]

Yup. IE, trying to actually ascertain her alignment, rather than just deciding to try to paint her as scummy. If I can't see a reason a

reasonable

person acting in good faith (ie, town) would interpret a post in a certain way, that usually leaves three options: you're unreasonable, you're pursuing a personal vendetta, and you're scum. I don't like calling people stupid when there are alternative hypotheses, and I don't have any meta suggesting personal animosity.

You're one of those players who try to see the good in every player, believes innocent until proven guilty, and ends up doing very little as a result, aren't you?

Other players, please note Bulbazak baselessly asserting that his interpretation of her 'intent' is the same thing as her actual intent. Actually, I think they speak far more to the mindset that

I've

outlined.

Read back over her posts. The intent you outlined doesn't fit in with her actions.

Never seen town try to lay a 'trap' before?

Never seen scum flail before?

She admits to wanting to shut down discussion on him. She says it's to protect her townread, but when pressed, she couldn't give an adequate answer why this should be the case, since she admitted to ignoring most of Garmr's posts. Then when she was called out on defending Garmr, she backtracks and said that she was defending herself by defending Garmr, which is BS. So go ahead and criticize my interpretation of that one sentence. It still doesn't change her actions, which happen to back up that interpretation.

This is a hugely uncharitable interpretation of what she said and did.

It's an accurate interpretation. Get out of your fluffy clouds of sunshine and rainbows and join us down here in reality.

This would be valid, if

her having said that

was mutually accepted information. Since the argument is precisely about

whether that is a reasonable interpretation of what she said

, it's just crap. My argument isn't town say that. My argument is that Emogirl didn't say that, and you're deliberately twisting her words.

She did say that! I can't help it if you want to sit there in your own little world and imagine there aren't people who kick kittens just for fun, but she did freaking say that!

We're not lynching scum based on who is the most annoying.

Pray tell what are the criteria for lynching scum?

I see it, but I really can't believe you

actually asked

this.

Sometimes I just like poking things with sticks and seeing what happens.

Prediction: Sotty and emogirl are scumpals.

my prediction was that Sotty and Bulbazak are scumpals. More reasons to lynch him.

Where did the Sotty scumread come from?

I agree that I have been town telling awfully hard and in turn this makes me suspicious.

Why hasn't MS created a *twitch* emoticon yet?

I also find it unlikely that emogirl is scum, becasue I have never seen a mafia post over 25% of the threads total posts. So either emogirl is an incompetent scum who is completely unable to blend, or her wagon is being driven by scum. I think the latter is more likely

I realize the post count argument is subjective and based entirely on my experience, but i have never seen that many posts from scum this early in dp1.

See Nine Plus Plus - Varsoon
Fire Emblem: Awakening - Saki

[Bulbazak]

I feel that Sotty is scum coaching emogirl.

I know where your scumread comes from. I was asking Emo.

Bulbazak's latest post is so bad he completely ignored all of Tebow's points. If he has any hint of being a decent player, it earns him a lynch.

I saw his points and disagreed with them. I feel I have sufficiently gotten my point across, but that it would be a waste of time arguing over something so pointless as to what the correct way to scum hunt is.

[Bulbazak]

You actually didn't address any of the issues Tebow presented.

You mean that he thinks you're town? I've addressed it. I think he's wrong. Anything further than that and we're getting into playstyle issues.

I refuse to talk about my association read of Sotty and Bulbazak until I am no longer in danger of being hammered. I don't need Sotty hammering me on the basis that my reads are toxic for the town.

No. You do not get to hold the game hostage to ward off your lynch.

You actually didn't address any of the issues Tebow presented.

You don't even justify your viewpoint. You just assert them as fact.

I've explained my position, and Tebow has disagreed with me. I disagree with his view on playing, but that is not alignment indicative, so I'd rather not bog the thread down with a useless debate.

That's called confirmation bias, dearie, and you not voting me is

STILL

inconsistent what that. If you wanna, go ahead. I won't mind.

Just to clarify: Do you have a scumread on Emo or a townread?

[Bulbazak]

Bulba can you give me your read of all players not named emo or garmr?

I have scumreads of various strengths on Aegor and Sotty (although I'm starting to become more unsure of my Sotty read). I have townreads on Goodfather, Maenara, Maestro, Tebow, Slandaar, Emeraldemon, and Nobody Special. Everybody else I'm still trying to sort.

P-edit: @NS: Shun the non-believer!

[Bulbazak]

Since I'm attacking you, HARD, that seems like an odd thing to say.

You were attacking me hard? I'm sorry, I wasn't paying much attention to you.

Also, people who are not bulbazak should note that this is another bare assertion on his part.

Excuse me, I've been going toe to toe with Emo for the majority of the game, meaning I was around when those posts were made. My views concerning all of this are well documented. Therefore, I can make as many bare assertions about her play as I want.

Never seen accusations of being 'flailing scum' made toward town before? It's an incredibly common scumtactic to accuse people of 'flailing.'

Town do it just as much. It's a null argument in determining the attacker's alignment.

It's a BULLSHIT interpretation. For it to be true, she'd have to be the stupidest scum who ever lived.

Or scum so full of herself that she thinks she can get away with it.

LIAR! SHE DID NOT SAY THAT! YOU MISREPRESENTED HER AS SAYING THAT!

After his 124, I was ready to attack the first person that dropped an actual case for Garmr.

Looks like it to me, especially in conjunction with everything else she's said.

BTW... I suggest people familiarise themselves with the mafia-playing norms of 2p2.net. From what I remember, the average player there posts far more frequently than here, and has a much spammier kind of playstyle. The sort of annoying, pretending to do antitown things kind of way emogirl started this game is, from what I remember, the standard way games get started over there.

No, you don't give scum an excuse by letting them say "That's how we play it over there...".

Yet I did not unvote until I had a defensible excuse

Amirite?

Now who's misrepping?

I'm utterly perplexed that Chevre isn't even really pretending to scumhunt with his life on the line.

Are you even reading the same game I am?

[Bulbazak]

I, for example, thought mountainous games were games where town outnumbered scum by a larger amount than the typical 1:3 ratio.

Oh, is it common for mountainous games to have more townies than usual?[/spoiler]

I assumed they did due to the word "mountainous". It seemed that way in the other mountainous game I played, but maybe I was under the wrong impression.

[Bulbazak]

I haven't really followed the last 2 pages and am feeling distant from this game, I don't know why I can't get invested. Chevre's posts are scummy and I'm fine with his lynch. Hopefully we strike gold here and I'll get more motivated.

This is not a good reason to put someone at L-1. In your own words, how are Chevre's posts scummy?

[Bulbazak]

What exactly constitutes a "good" reason to put someone at L-1 then? And with so little content from Chevre in the first place I wouldn't be surprised if anyone found it difficult to come up with something novel and new about him. That ground has already been covered. Asking for how he's scummy "in your own words" is a trap. Basically there is no good answer to Bulba's query, it seems plain to me that he'll now have a scumread on ABR based on whatever answer he could come up, or his lack of an answer.

ABR has been a nonentity for most of the game. He is putting the Chevre wagon at L-1 with absolutely zero reasoning, other than "let's just lynch somebody", and it just feels like he is willing to sheep whoever as long as he doesn't have to add his own thought process or scumhunt whatsoever. It's an easy, lazy vote. If he really thinks Chevre is scummy, which he has given no indication, than I want to know why, especially if he is putting her this close to death.

Chevre is a good day 1 lynch. You can't just run up everybody to L-3 and then freak out when someone places that player in danger of a lynch, then choose to disintegrate that wagon and bandwagon the new player. This is mountainous, we're not going to get a game-changing claim. Instead of getting caught in a circular suspicion loop, I say we lynch Chevre.

Yes, but why is she scummy?

[Bulbazak]

If emogirl flips scum, we will know bulbazak is full of shit.

You're going to have to explain this one, because me being full of crap after having been proved right doesn't make sense to me.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, doesn't it surprise you that I'm town reading you?

A little bit. You always tend to read me as scum.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's opening vote on emeraldemon is very fishy given how emeraldemon had just claimed he was new and I don't completely understand what he said that could've been said in confirmation.

Emerald's intro of "Oh hey, I'm new!" could have been said during pregame. It's not like we had limited time during that phase of the game. Instead, he avoided the pregame and prefaced his first actual post with that, which I felt was to set a standard by which we would lower our guard in regards to him. However, I later got a townread from him, so I no longer feel this is a valid point.

Bulbazak seems to disregard his altercation with Tebow as an attack when really they were back-and-forthing for pages?

Because I realized it was simply a difference in play style, and since I believe that Fonz is town, although terribly wrong and misguided, I didn't see the point in dragging out an argument that would come to nothing and distract from scumhunting.

[Bulbazak]

I later got a townread from him, so I no longer feel this is a valid point.

From what?

His later posts had the appearance of newbie town, rather than scum. He was eager and actually doing his best to scumhunt. I didn't think he'd be able to fake that as scum with his level of experience.

the swarm of people already trying to lay blame for a chevre mislynch at the feet of ABR et. al. Somebody who *knows* he's town is feeding that fire.

Bulbazak and Yessiree? Any others?

You don't think ABR's vote on Chevre was strange, especially when he avoided giving any reason for why Chevre was scum when asked? I'm not blaming him for the whole wagon, I think that's a misrepresentation of my stance on him, but I do find his vote to be scummy.

[Bulbazak]

Did you look at his completed game?

No, I don't have the time to read games outside the ones I'm playing in.

[Bulbazak]

It's good enough for now.

[Bulbazak]

If you weren't voting emogirl, who would you be voting?

Either Garmr or ABR.

[Bulbazak]

People who need to post:
Brian
Kabsy
Maestro
ABR

People who are scum:
Brian
Kabsy
Maestro
ABR

I see a correlation here.

Yes, I think it means to rethink your list.

[Bulbazak]

@bulbazak

What is your read on Chevre? Are you against the wagon?

I'm leaning town on him. I'm not a big fan of the wagon, especially as of late.

[Bulbazak]

emo's wagon shouldn't be so difficult given how her posts are desperate and grasping, there's definitely some buddies pulling the strings here.

If that's the case, why aren't you voting Emo?

[Bulbazak]

Slandaar

This surprises me.

Why?

[Bulbazak]

I just felt like you would have commented on something, but you never did. And now he's just sitting in your town pile.

I like the feel of a lot of his posts. It reminds me of Maniacal. It's really not thought out beyond that.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Slandaar

Compromation lynch go!

[Bulbazak]

I'm some pages behind being fully read up but just skimming is enough to see that Yessiree dies tomorrow if Slandaar flips scum, and Slandaar is going to flip scum.

Explain.

Lurkers and newer players are low hanging fruit

This is Brians definition.

Therefore his ONLY scumread from his POV;
#1 is low hanging fruit
#2 he holds a grudge against

Obviously he is scum. You can't make the argument he did with his reads.

Definitions tend to be separate from actual reads. Sometimes it seems hypocritical, but it's not scummy. Is that all you've got, or do you have some more misreps to spout?

I like Aegor's #887.

Emerald is a harder lynch.

Actually, given the way the votes piled on him, I'd say he's the easier lynch. Besides, the kind of conclusion you're trying to lead the town to is generally false. How quickly, or how easy, it is to build a wagon has nothing to do with the wagoned player's alignment.

[Bulbazak]

Is that all you've got, or do you have some more misreps to spout?

Yes actually check a few pages ago.

I didn't misrep him he said low hanging fruit are lurkers; I was lurking ergo I am low hanging fruit and he is being mosntrously hypocritical.

Perhaps you can point the misrep out?

I even said in that quote that you clipped out that personal understanding of definitions and personal game theory does not always equate with personal play. Brian explained his definition, but it was obvious from his posts that he didn't put that level of thought into his vote for you. He wasn't thinking "I'm voting Slandaar for lurking, ergo I'm going after low-hanging fruit.". He was thinking "Slandaar is doing something I find scummy for whatever reason, so I'm going to vote him.". The definition he gave from a theory perspective and his actual gameplay, which may not be as logically thought out, are two very different things, which you sought to unreasonably consolidate in order to push his lynch. They were never meant to coexist at the level you are presenting them.

That

is the misrep.

[Bulbazak]

He thinks X is done in theory. He doesn't realize he's doing X.

Conclusion: Town.

Player takes advantage of attacker doing X. Player misreps attacker at every turn during their back and forth. Player keeps on getting bested in arguments, so he cuts it off as an attempt to appear town.

Conclusion: Scum.

[Bulbazak]

Read the deadmen's ISOs.

First, NKs are a big mess of WIFOM, so I'm not going to use 1 kill to justify lynching anyone. Second, Slandaar self-hammered. Any credibility he might have had is gone after that (and I didn't feel he had much in the first place), since he essentially played against his own wincon.

Unvote, vote Slandaar

regardless you still voted against town

Vote: ABR

The crap? What kind of reasoning is this?

Vote Emogirl123

This is still scum. I'll examine the rest of the ABR wagon later.

[Bulbazak]

You're not making any sense.

[Bulbazak]

I know what FoS is. I just don't know what this:

good plan has to be town

has to do with anything.

[Bulbazak]

Was he on the Emo wagon? I'd kind of like to vote someone who was on the Emo wagon.

Why?

[Bulbazak]

I think Emo is scum. The wagon dissipated very quickly once an alternate target was found, that being the Chevre wagon.

[Bulbazak]

I think Emo is scum. The wagon dissipated very quickly once an alternate target was found, that being the Chevre wagon.

What's the scum case on her besides wagon dissipation? Or is that the case?

I thought I saw evidence of an associative tell between her and Garmr in pregame. I pushed Garmr on this, and Emo essentially freaks out and votes me. Later she said that she was trying to understand my reasoning, but there was no hint of that whatsoever in her first mention of me, where she happened to vote me for voting Garmr. She then said that she was defending herself, but at no point did she ever argue in defense of herself, only Garmr. She then later said that she had been waiting to vote any reasonable case on Garmr, which again pointed to the fact that she was preparing to either chainsaw defend Garmr or WK him. She also contradicted herself several times, and was overly concerned about how she looked, or how she "towntold". After the wagon on her dissipated, she stopped posting as often, and she failed to deliver cases she promised, since no one was pushing her.

Unvote, vote Slandaar

regardless you still voted against town

Vote: ABR

You think he's scum because he voted for town?

that is one reason however i need more information to confirm my suspicions

A post on the end-of-day votecount:

For reference, here it is:

Vote Count 1.19

Slandaar (10) - Chevre, OhGodMyLife, Aegor, Brian Skies, Bulbazak, Zdenek, Matias, yessiree, Albert B. Rampage, Slandaar

Brian Skies (4) - Garmr, Sotty7, emeraldemon, emogirl123
Chevre (2) - Zekrom25, The Fonz
emeraldemon (1) - inHimshallibe
emogirl123 (1) - kabooooom

Not voting (1) - Nobody Special

With nineteen players alive, it takes ten votes to lynch.

Deadline for Day One has been extended due to the replacements and is now Wednesday, 5th February 20.00 GMT, (in (expired on 2014-02-05 20:00:00)).

Let's go over the votes on Slandaar's lynch first. Obviously mine is the first vote; I think at the time of casting it was a weak vote based primarily on a sort of active lurking but Slandaar's poor reactions to the vote strengthened my opinions on it. I'm going to affirm here that I don't think the Slandaar lynch was poorly conceptualized, but in this review I do want to look at those whose votes seem opportune or of little reason. OGML's vote is second and I think it's actually a little bit prophetic with the line "In conclusion, let's try to disingenuously dismiss all criticism out of hand", so I don't take issue with this vote either. ABR's first vote on Slandaar (he unvotes later and then revotes) is just because he is "scummy" without explanation but that's to be expected of ABR at this point isn't it? He does switch to emeraldemon quite quickly afterward but that wagon hasn't really taken off yet so I don't think it's a scummy hop. I'm not sure of Sotty's reasoning for his vote on Slandaar, but it is not permanent I see. It does agree with OGML again which is so very strange and I think Zdenek is right to question it. Aegor, though initially I thought it scummy since he considers lynching Slandaar earlier in 607, actually has decent reasons in this post and 668, especially determining why Slandaar is the best choice out of the suspects. Despite walls on the same page, Brian Skies' vote is pretty reasonless; he notes how Slandaar is "pure evil" but I don't know if that necessarily indicates scum? The Bulbazak vote is reasonless within the post but in 634 he notes Slandaar's poor list construction (the one where he lists people he believes need to post and declares them as scum). I think Brian Skies' reasonless vote is at least in part remedied by transactions between the two on pages 31 and 32. ABR switches back for a second time to Slandaar and this is still not the last; what's even more disconcerting is that he says in this post that his reads are "usually right on the money" but his earlier switch from Slandaar to emeraldemon seemed quite fickle. Zdenek's vote feels right, especially since now Slandaar is all over the place and peaked with that vote switch to emeraldemon; Matias pretty much echoes these sentiments. Zekrom places a vote which I guess changes later, and it's literally reasoned by everyone else's reasons, but given what I've seen on Day 2 I'm not expecting much more. yessiree's vote is kind of pointless to include in this analysis, but for completion's sake, it actually doesn't do much in the way of reasoning, though at this point it is nearing deadline and much of the reasons have been stated and re-stated. I feel this differs from Zekrom's vote because yessiree's feels legitimate whereas Zekrom's feels like he's latching on, though these ideas are admittedly gut feels since there is so little wordage in the vote posts. I don't feel it's worth linking, but ABR switches back to make it L-1 in 929 and then Slandaar self hammers.

From the votes that were left at lynch, I think ABR's wishy-washy voting is the scummiest, but I do think most of the votes off the wagon are more fishy. I never really found Sotty7's vote reasoning for Slandaar very in-depth, and then he switches off the wagon. Zekrom's vote and switch to me before the lynch is also very scummy. emogirl also putting her vote on Brian feels scummy as well. Also Garmr barely touches the Slandaar wagon at all. As for the others, emeraldemon truly does reek of newness, and I am of mixed opinion on his vote on Brian Skies. I could totally see it as scum knowing Slandaar is not scum and thus trying to avoid flak on Day 2 but it really sort of matches emeraldemon's tone from the rest of the day. Despite it being on me, Fonz's vote wasn't really out-of-place and he declared intent to hammer. inHim, kabooooom, and Nobody Special's votes don't really bother me because they were either reading up / away, which could be scum excuses but I doubt it.

So for a concise list ( ) The end-of-day vote count makes me think Sotty7, ABR, emogirl123, Zekrom25, and Garmr are suspicious, in that order.

Wow that was a horrible,horrible, horrible post. So your scum reads list is who ever wasn't voting sland except ABR who is the flavor of the day. Are you just being lazy or even trying at all. Also you seem to be scum reading the brian skies wagon when he had done nothing nothing deserving of a town read.

I will note your passive defense of brian skies with your silent chainsawing

I actually thought it was a good post. You seem to have purposely overlooked all of the analysis that Chevre did. What specifically about her reasoning did you not like?

Also Side note Bulba has lost his town read

I was never aware I had gained a town read from you.

Bulbazak tends to read Emo's wagon falling apart as indicating scum on her part. I read it the other way: it fell apart because it was scummy and indefensible, so people ran from it as soon as it was attacked.

No, people ran when the slightest appearance of something scummy contradictory to the Emo wagon appeared, i.e. Chevre starting to question his read. Nobody ever recanted the reasons for being on the Emo wagon. Chevre was essentially everything anti-Emo, the perfect counter-wagon.

Bulbazak and Zekrom currently gut level scums.

What gave you that gut read?

I didn't like his Zekrom vote too much, so that is why I picked Bulba first, in case it turns out Aegor is indeed scum.

Um...what? "I didn't like Aegor's Zekrom vote, so I'm voting Bulba in case Aegor is scum."? What kind of crap reasoning is this?

What's the difference between Zdenek and Zekrom25?

Zdenek goes
Wa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pow!
Wa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pow!
Wa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pow!

and the other fits in a pokeball

P-edit: Playing over your skill level? The crap?

[Bulbazak]

It's a legit tell that I want this site getting into there system me and mollie are going to try and get it running. So think of it as advertising .

Explain it to me.

[Bulbazak]

I don't see how that would be the case, because that would be assuming that scum are doing a lot of bussing. Chances are, their pushes are going to be as incorrect as town's. I can see where you're coming from in huge leap in skill level, but I still can't see that being the case. Newer players like Zekrom end up looking similar as scum, and maybe even more obvious. There are rarely any great leaps in skill level, and even if there was, it would be noticeable. This theory seems primed to take out evolving players, i.e. players that are developing their game in a way to be effective. It seems primed more to discourage improvement, rather than find scum.

[Bulbazak]

What gave you that gut read?

[Bulbazak]

So you agree with the assertion that the NK points to ABR being scum? Or that it points definitively to anyone being scum at this point?

[Bulbazak]

So you agree with the assertion that the NK points to ABR being scum? Or that it points definitively to anyone being scum at this point?

I never said anything about the nightkills. I just know scum have agenda when they engage in discourse, and it pinged me that you did not want NK analysis done (on a suggestive level), thus scum.

I don't put as much faith in NKA as others do. I especially don't think it's possible to do NKA based off of only 1 kill. You need multiple kills in order to establish a pattern. So yeah, I think the NK point against ABR was crappy.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak what do you my alignment is?

No clue.

What do you think of Zdenek's assertions?

I think it's incredibly lazy play to base an entire read off of a dead man's read list, especially when that player went against his win condition in the manner that he did, and especially since he was the one stretching to make his points for most of his arguments, which was what got him lynched in the first place.

although I'm starting to become more unsure of my Sotty read

Could you explain this please?

I had an early Sotty gut scumread. I started to doubt that read given his reactions during my back and forth with Emo and Garmr. I'm not sure what to make of him now, as the current game state feels a lot more muddled than yesterday.

Bulbazak, why did you ignore this?

Chevre becomes moderately more town simply because I'm still alive.

Was there a reason you expected me to comment on it?

[Bulbazak]

Garmr, are you voting me because Emo is leaving?

Was there a reason you expected me to comment on it?

Yes, and it should only take you a moment to figure it out.

I'm assuming it has to do with his comment on Chevre being town, because he wasn't NK'd. I don't think I paid it much attention, because Fonz has shown a propensity for bad theory in regards to this game. I wouldn't expect much more from the guy who tried to make a scum case out of me not being generous in understanding (all rainbows and unicorns) when reading a game.

[Bulbazak]

I don't think he's either, but I do think he's relying on a bad argument.

[Bulbazak]

What do you think of ABR's cases?

They've been pretty weak, but I'm also reading him as a player who is just recently getting into this game. His case on you is essentially a knee jerk reaction to you voting him for bad reasoning. I still think he came out stronger in his back and forth with Slandaar.

[Bulbazak]

I'm liking Chevre's analysis here. ABR is probably scum, to the point where I can:

Where do you go from "ABR is overconfident and committing a logical fallacy (7for7 tends to be town)" to "ABR is scum"?

[Bulbazak]

I've explained why the NK is WIFOM, and you have yet to explain why his particular brand of bad logic is scummy, and Zdenek's is not.

[Bulbazak]

Second, Bulb, what do you think of ABR's vote on me now.

I'm thinking it's OMGUS.

and why are you even insinuating that my logic is scummy?

I'm insinuating your logic is bad, not scummy.

[Bulbazak]

I thought that ABR came out stronger than Slandaar in their back and forth. And like I've said, ABR is essentially having a knee jerk reaction towards you. It's an OMGUS case. Of course it probably has BS reasons.

[Bulbazak]

I thought that ABR came out stronger than Slandaar in their back and forth. And like I've said, ABR is essentially having a knee jerk reaction towards you. It's an OMGUS case. Of course it probably has BS reasons.

What argument of ABR's against Slaandar do you think is convincing?

I said that he came out

stronger

than Slandaar. Slandaar was really stretching in his cases on Brian and ABR. That was what made me think that he was the most likely scum of the argument.

ABR is essentially having a knee jerk reaction towards you. It's an OMGUS case. Of course it probably has BS reasons.

Good, so you don't think that he's trying to get scum lynched.

You should probably be voting him about now.

I don't think he's trying to get town lynched either. I think he is reacting emotionally to you. Bad case does not equal scum, or else I'd be wanting to lynch you as well.

[Bulbazak]

I said that he came out stronger than Slandaar.

What the fuck does this even mean?

Slandaar was reaching for reasons to find Brian and ABR scummy. I know that for Brian, he was actually misrepping his posts. He carried that same mindset over to ABR. As a result, I felt that ABR came out better in terms of their back and forth. You are asking me to quantify an impression that I got while initially reading their arguments, and you're doing so as a way to try to discredit that impression.

Run me through your case on Emogirl again.

Emo attacked me when I voted Garmr and stated that I saw a possible connection between her and Garmr. She then said she wanted to open up a line of discussion with me, but this is false, because she had been voting me and flat out attacking me instead of asking me questions. She then said that she was trying to defend herself, but this is false, because she was only defending Garmr the entire time. She then admits that she had been prepared to vote anyone who brought up "an actual case" on Garmr. She also talked several times about how she was trying to "town tell". Finally, when the wagon on her dissipated, so did her activity. During this time, she kept on promising a case on me, but would then fall silent and fail to deliver when not questioned on it.

Why did you want me to state this again? So that you can find a way to discredit it all?

P-edit: The point which you seem to be missing, Zdenek, is that I don't think bad cases are indicative of scum. Slandaar made bad cases, ABR has made bad cases, Fonz has made bad cases, and you are making bad cases. A case being bad does not mean it's scummy. If you want me to believe that the case is scummy, and not just bad, then you need to provide evidence of it, and using the reads of a dead man who couldn't play to his wincon and had bad cases of his own is not the way to do so.

[Bulbazak]

Why did you defend ABR with that?

I just stated my opinion. I think both of your cases are bad, but I don't think either are scummy. You've been the one driving this entire conversation beyond that.

[Bulbazak]

Well, okay, but you should know that your case on Emogirl is more of a case for her being town than one for her being scum.

Why's that?

If that was directed to me, I don't what you are asking.

do you have any reads on ABR, Brian & Slandaar ?

[Bulbazak]

First, it should be apparent what his read of ABR is. Second, Slandaar is dead.

[Bulbazak]

I honestly think we should just decide now which players we still want alive when there are, say, 8 players alive and then just systematically lynch everyone else.

Unvote

Vote Aegor

[Bulbazak]

Everyone: Top three scumreads. Go.

TonyPF
Garmr
Aegor

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote TonyPF

[Bulbazak]

I know. I forgot the space.

[Bulbazak]

I know. I forgot the space.

No, not that. It's that they're BOTH on my scum list, and if ABR isn't going to the noose then we still need to lynch someone.

I'd rather it not be me.

You're a scum read for me, too. Much better than Aegor in any case.

OK, on inHim, I'm leaning town. Has gut reads and strong town reads, which aren't that common among scum.

You need to get out more.

Maestro twice attacked people voting the wagon he was on.

I sense there's a point here, but I'm not quite sure what it is.

[Bulbazak]

I'm game.

Unvote

Vote Aegor

Thor, where's your vote?

[Bulbazak]

Those on it should be scrutinized, especially because not a single one has bothered to actually explain why I am scum.

For me, it's the emphasis on lynching based on who we want in endgame, instead of scumhunting, which is a scum attitude, not a town one, not to mention the heap loads of WIFOM you keep dumping into the thread.

[Bulbazak]

I'm not answering that.

Why not?

[Bulbazak]

I'm not answering that.

Why not?

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Thor

Because I'm changing my vote.

Why are you changing your vote? Because you can't answer a question posed to you regarding Aegor?

I pray that you are always town when I am scum, and never town when I am town then.

You should probably wait until we both flip to make that prayer.

Something's wrong with this statement, but I can't figure out what.

[Bulbazak]

My reads are in my ISO. As I said, this game is 55 pages with maybe 1 page of usable content.

Are we reading the same game?

[Bulbazak]

Zekrom, why are you voting for someone that's replacing out?

[Bulbazak]

Zekrom, why are you voting for someone that's replacing out?

for 2 reasons

1.

I'm leaving the site, don't trust Zekrom, people.

and

2. giving up is bad

[Bulbazak]

What's even more suss is

Everyone: Top three scumreads. Go.

TonyPF
Garmr
Aegor

After I called him out on this post and challenged him

I've been calling you scum since d1. Nice try.

Everyone: Top three scumreads. Go.

TonyPF

Garmr

Aegor

I think you should push for my lynch over the other 2 if your scum reading me. You start pushing hard now and we will have our little back and forth town see's your scum and i'm town you get lynched we have a scum flip then I get night killed.

He hasn't replied to it since and he has posted 10 posts since then.

Replying to it would be a waste of time and a distraction, since nothing would come of it. Also, did you have a problem with what I posted?

The quality in bulb posts have dropped to and the actual hunting seems absent.

Examples please.

It just seems he is riding his town read from day 1 to end game.

What town read am I supposedly riding?

If he was interested in me and emo he would actually been pushing harder instead of just strolling about.

I must have imagined d1 then, as well as those votes on Tony.

P-edit: The point which you seem to be missing, Zdenek, is that I don't think bad cases are indicative of scum. Slandaar made bad cases, ABR has made bad cases, Fonz has made bad cases, and you are making bad cases. A case being bad does not mean it's scummy. If you want me to believe that the case is scummy, and not just bad, then you need to provide evidence of it, and using the reads of a dead man who couldn't play to his wincon and had bad cases of his own is not the way to do so.

How the hell is this town. He just wants to discredit everyone. By his own theroy his cases should be bad cases. The fact I know I'm town makes his day 1 case bad. You know how he will respond if I do ever flip. It was garmr's fault and my case wasn't terribad when it fact it just sucks dick.

Why would my saying certain cases are bad be indicative of scum? That means that I don't think said cases have any merit, and I've explained why on several of them. I do like how you're trying to misrepresent my statement here and are trying to use it as a means to get me lynched.

That's not really arguing with a real player waynegg is retarded and shouldn't really be playing on this site as he is anti town as fuck.
(His the only wanka I don't like on the site at a personal level.)

I'd say Waynegg is more skillful of a player than Emo. Why are you trying to discount my argument with Waynegg in another game and trying to avoid the comparison it was meant for?

I would really like it if we could swing an Aegor lynch.

[Bulbazak]

But where is your day 2 pushing. You done nothing nothing at all to pressure day 2 and I feel you been trying to avoid me directly.

To be honest, I spent some time reevaluating my read on you. I didn't like what I saw, so the scumread returned near the later half of the day.

Starting up conversation with one of your scum reads is never a waste of time. Your just fucking avoiding me because you don't want to lose your clutch

Except you didn't want to startup a conversation, you wanted me to vote you when you weren't a viable wagon. That would have distracted from a scumread I would have been more likely to lynch. Not to mention that the argument that you were prepping to start would have clogged up the thread, distracting from actual scumhunting. The point of you calling me out wasn't to find scum, it was to create a distraction, and I wasn't going to buy into that.

And if you think I'm afraid of taking someone on, because I think I might lose my composure, you really need to read some scum games of mine. Go to my wiki page, there are plenty.

Somewhat wrong misdirected but town but when day 2 you became more a reactionary player instead of proactive one.

I've heard this said about me before. I lost a bit of the handle I had on the game going into d2, not to mention I've been dealing with RL issues that have been limiting my time. I just didn't want to say anything unless it was important.

Why did you drop the pressure on me then and why haven't you been able to actually pull a case out on me since day 1?

Because I've been focusing on lynching other people.

You been stuck in that emo thing for ages you can't get past or even gather new evidence your incompetent bulb.

There's been nothing new to present, since that slot has been unimpressive today. The case is an oldie, but a goodie.

Are you trying to defend yourself with that fake shield made of waaghh snivel snivel his misrepping me.

Are you trying to use my calling certain cases bad as evidence that I'm scum?

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Nobody Special

[Bulbazak]

bulb, what are your reads on thor, Zekrom, sotty, inhim and highshroomish.

Thor - Town
Zekrom - Town read on Maestro. Not sure what to make of Zek's time in the slot. I'll probably reevaluate after I see the new replacement.
Sotty - Null/Scum. I need to review this one.
Inhim - No clue.
Highshroomish - Again, no clue. I originally had a townread on OGML, but that started to degrade due to some of the posts he was making.

Gut says Sotty and HS are probably the same alignment.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: Garmr

I'm town but I feel like now my lynch is the only thing hat will make you guys take me seriously.

Don't even try this play, scum.

[Bulbazak]

. I, for example, thought mountainous games were games where town outnumbered scum by a larger amount than the typical 1:3 ratio.

^^^^^^
this has me worrying about Bulb 'cause I think its fairly common knowledge that mountainous=no power but for someone that HAS played in a mountainous game this seems fairly obtuse.

And I thought town largely outnumbered scum in that game past expected levels. In fact, I joined the game hoping to draw scum because of the challenge. I'll need to go back and look at that game and see if the ratio was off at all.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D3)

Town

Zdenek
Thor665
Chevre
Emeraldemon

Null

Albert B. Rampage
Rainbowdash
InHimshallibe
HighShroomish

Null/Scum

Kabooooom
Matias
Sotty7

Scum

Nero Cain
Aegor
Garmr

[Bulbazak]

Well, I think that the kill means that Sotty is town, so that's something.

How's that?

Vote Garmr

Not only is he scum, but I don't want to play with him anymore.

[Bulbazak]

So your list is



top >>>>>>>>>>>>bottom
lowest>>>>>>>>>>highest?

I don't get what you're saying.

Well, I think that the kill means that Sotty is town, so that's something.

How's that?

Scum Sotty probably leaves town Fonz alive to split the paranoia over not being NK'd as the game goes on.

Do you have much experience with Sotty as scum?

Yes your really good at reading my scum game lol.

If you weren't scum, I'd still be trying to lynch you on policy alone.

[Bulbazak]

Do you have much experience with Sotty as scum?

No.

Then why do you feel your NK theory holds merit?

you have me as a scumread but you are voting Garmer so he's your #1 scum read right?

Correct.

Is ZD or Demon your #1 town read?

Zdenek.

[Bulbazak]

Then why do you feel your NK theory holds merit?

I said something about this already. Unless you're planning to try to lynch Sotty I see no need to keep arguing about this.

But your theory revolves around what Sotty-scum would do, knowledge of which you don't have. I just don't see how you could really push the Fonz NK as clearing Sotty if you don't have decent Sotty-scum meta.

[Bulbazak]

Then why do you feel your NK theory holds merit?

I said something about this already. Unless you're planning to try to lynch Sotty I see no need to keep arguing about this.

But your theory revolves around what Sotty-scum would do, knowledge of which you don't have. I just don't see how you could really push the Fonz NK as clearing Sotty if you don't have decent Sotty-scum meta.

I don't think this is meta dependent.

I just don't understand how you can say a Fonz kill clears Sotty if you have no idea what Sotty would or would not do as scum.

[Bulbazak]

and Bulba acting as though non-meta dependent arguments don't exist.

[Bulbazak]

which since NC and Garmr are town doesn't leave many but meh

How are NC and Garmr town?

[Bulbazak]

How was Emo town?

[Bulbazak]

RBD, you never answered this:

How was Emo town?

[Bulbazak]

Wouldn't be all that surprised if Rainbowshit was scum, didn't really like Zek much and Kab is p much low hanging fruit.

Did you ever read any of Maestro's posts? If so, what did you think of them?

[Bulbazak]

RBD, you never answered this:

How was Emo town?

[Bulbazak]

This is going to be Baltimorons all over again, isn't it...

[Bulbazak]

You mean where you catch one scum based on a role, are unable to get any form of a wagon going without a claim, proceed to full out defend every other scum in the game, make role choices that a third grader would realize are foalish, and finally getting dragged kicking and screaming across the finish line by the rest of the town?

I mean where I catch scum and try to get them lynched while you hard defend them up to, and even after, they're lynched. And since there are no neighbors in this game, you don't have to worry about me being duped so hard.

[Bulbazak]

@Rainbowdash
The last two times we lynchee some one who was lurking, we got town. kabooooom is playing anti-town, yes, but not scummy, and I'm not about to lynch another lurker just to have them flip town. Our numbers are dwindling. We have 16 slots left in game, and 14 that are usable. Tomorrow, it's more than likely we'll be at 14. And if we still haven't caught any scum and we mislynch tomorrow, if there are six, which seems highly likely for a big game, the games over.

To people saying not to lynch the ABR slot- if I think it's scummy I'm gonna try to. And I do.

VOTE: ABR-SLOT

Says we should not lynch a lurker. Votes a lurker slot that is being replaced.

Unvote

Vote HighShroomish

[Bulbazak]

I was voting kab earlier in the game. ABR is at L-1. Forgive me for thinking that he is the easiest lynch at this point. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than lynching kab tomorrow.

Are you looking for the easiest lynch or a lynch on scum?

[Bulbazak]

I was voting kab earlier in the game. ABR is at L-1. Forgive me for thinking that he is the easiest lynch at this point. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than lynching kab tomorrow.

Are you looking for the easiest lynch or a lynch on scum?

Both? Either?

[Bulbazak]

Oh, I forgot to mention it before. Shroomish towntold big in that post. Scum will have to NK him.

I didn't see a towntell. I saw a contradictory stance and opportunistic behavior.

[Bulbazak]

Oh, I forgot to mention it before. Shroomish towntold big in that post. Scum will have to NK him.

I didn't see a towntell. I saw a contradictory stance and opportunistic behavior.

Getting the number of scum oh so very wrong.

I agree that there is most likely 4 scum, but I don't see how saying there are 6 completely clears him.

I was voting kab earlier in the game. ABR is at L-1. Forgive me for thinking that he is the easiest lynch at this point. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than lynching kab tomorrow.

Are you looking for the easiest lynch or a lynch on scum?

Both? Either?

Bulba, vote Aegor, this is scummier than Highshroomish by a mile.

I might, but I want to do some analysis first regarding the ABR wagon.

[Bulbazak]

We *know* that there are 3 scum from the Role PMs in the first post.

Oh. I was using the standard 1:3 ratio.

[Bulbazak]

Aegor, why do you want to lynch ABR?

Because there is irrational resistance to his lynch without a strong defense.

*Looks at the opening of d2*
*Looks at current state of the wagon*
*Looks at Aegor's post again*

[Bulbazak]

We *know* that there are 3 scum from the Role PMs in the first post.

Oh. I was using the standard 1:3 ratio.

I do not like ZD's post here like at all 'cause this is the EXACT same silliness we had from Slan on d1. Could ZD be scum shadowing confirmed town? Maybe.

Its Bulb's post that makes me want Bulb blood. Here he says that he was following the 1:3 ratio and yet...

. I, for example, thought mountainous games were games where

town outnumbered scum by a larger amount than the typical 1:3 ratio

.

^^^^^^
this has me worrying about Bulb 'cause I think its fairly common knowledge that mountainous=no power but for someone that HAS played in a mountainous game this seems fairly obtuse.

yet he did not think that earlier.

vote:Bulb

Except the term "mountainous" was never used in the advertising of this game. This game was advertised as "all vanilla". If you remember, Voided only advertised his game as "nightless mountainous", and he also talked about how badly the scum were outnumbered, which was why I wanted to play (I really wanted to draw scum that game.). At no point was the exact definition of mountainous explained, and I correlated the word with Voided's explanation of the scumteam being radically outnumbered. It wasn't until d1 of this game that the term was explained to mean "all vanilla", and of course, I expressed my confusion over the term. At no point in this game was I assuming anything other than a 1:3 ratio.

[Bulbazak]

I am not opposed to scumhunting. It is just that before this case, Bulba is the only freakin' player who has actually attempted to construct a case or probe anyone in any significant way. This game suffers from massive lethargy, and I do not have the energy to resurrect it by myself. It is ridiculous to claim that I am suppressing scumhunting when in fact I am just proposing a rational procedure given a game with no scumhunting in it.

I wouldn't say that nobody is scumhunting. In fact, we've had a lot go on in this game. Why aren't you scumhunting?

3)

The only wagon he hasn't hopped on was emogirl's.

That wagon was terrible.

Why was it terrible?

[Bulbazak]

The d2 ABR speed wagon:

Emogirl123

Nero Cain,

Thor665

,

Nobody Special

,

Zdenek

, Matias,

Aegor

,

Zekrom25

Rainbowdash
The current ABR wagon:

Thor665

, Sotty7, Inhimshallibe,

Aegor

, HighShroomish,

Zdenek

Those who joined the wagon AFTER ABR asked for replacement: Inhimshallibe,

Aegor

, HighShroomish,

Zdenek

*Players who are no longer in the game have been struck out. If they have been replaced, the current occupier of the slot has been listed beside them.
*Those who were on both the speedwagon and d2 wagon have been italicized.
*Those who are on all 3 lists have been bolded.
*It should be noted that Aegor and Zdenek were both on the ABR wagon before he requested replacement. However, where Aegor left the wagon immediately, and then rejoined when it started gaining momentum again, Zdenek left to pursue another option and then returned to it. Out of the 2, Zdenek's vote shows more conviction.

Unvote

Vote Aegor

[Bulbazak]

Baseless wagons can be fun and informative, either intentionally or not. The wagon on Emo was portrayed as legitimate even though it made no sense from the beginning. My problem was with the votes accompanied by statements that they were somehow reasonable or justified based on emo's play. I am happy to provide more detail, but will probably not bother doing so if I am about to be lynched. Just being realistic.

So you're spouting fluff and intentionally saying nothing. Gotcha.

[Bulbazak]

Thor, what more do you need? An invitation? Get your butt over here!

[Bulbazak]

HighShroomish's case just feels so slimy to me.

[Bulbazak]

3) ABR is replacing out, if he is replaced by an active player will that still be your #1 lynch priority?

His posts are bad. A decent replacement will move me to kab.

If that is the case, why aren't you waiting for a replacement. Odds are that any replacement will allow us to get an actual read on the slot.

[Bulbazak]

How is the conviction that I am showing behind my vote boundary between scummy and not scummy?

I was looking at those who had unvoted ABR and then revoted after he had asked for replacement. With you, you had a case on the slot, which made your moving back make sense. However, Aegor jumped ship and only came back on when the wagon started gaining momentum again. That's a lot scummier.

[Bulbazak]

How is the conviction that I am showing behind my vote boundary between scummy and not scummy?

I was looking at those who had unvoted ABR and then revoted after he had asked for replacement. With you, you had a case on the slot, which made your moving back make sense. However, Aegor jumped ship and only came back on when the wagon started gaining momentum again. That's a lot scummier.

Why do you think it's scummy?

He gets off to look town, and then when it looks like the lynch is still on, he's like "Let's get rid of this slot that can't defend itself!". That's like prime easy mislynch served to him on a silver platter.

[Bulbazak]

That only makes sense if ABR is town.

I'm actually starting to lean that way, because I haven't liked any of the wagon build up from the past 2 days.

[Bulbazak]

That only makes sense if ABR is town.

I'm actually starting to lean that way, because I haven't liked any of the wagon build up from the past 2 days.

What are you talking about?

The speed of the wagon at the start of d2 and the wagon growing so quickly after ABR requested replacement suggests a scum driven wagon to me.

[Bulbazak]

Well then vote Kaboom because we aren't lynching Aegor.

Why don't you want Aegor lynched?

Frankly I don't know where this speed of wagon argument comes from. I mean I see it around, but I don't think there is any evidence that it's correct.

I know something seems off if a wagon just spontaneously starts growing super fast. It's at least worth investigating.

[Bulbazak]

Zdenek, do you have a scumread on Kaboooom?

[Bulbazak]

So you won't lynch Aegor because he's null, but you'll lynch Kaboooom because he's null? Why should I vote a null read over a scumread of mine?

[Bulbazak]

Aegor is potentially readable, but Kaboom isn't.

Okay, but I'm reading Aegor as scum. Why should I lynch Kabooom then, who I have no read on? You're essentially asking me to trade a scum read for a null read.

[Bulbazak]

ABR people: Please switch to kab, or explain why ABR is especially scummy.

This is strange coming from somebody pushing the ABR wagon pretty hard only a little while ago.

[Bulbazak]

There was an attack on Slaandar for reasons that I think weren't all that good.

Compare that to Slandaar's reasoning. Is it any better?

ABR voted him, adding reasons that were false.

Were they? How accurate are you expecting some meta reads when viewed through the lens of memory? Have you ever had a moment in a game where you stated X happened, only to be told that you're wrong, and it ended up being your impression of the game, not what was in black and white?

The reason that it's scummy is that he wanted his vote to look more legitimate than it actually was.

Town sometimes do this as well. Why is it scummy in this instance?

I think I may be confusing ABR and Brian Skies. Regardless, ISO'd ABR and found nothing spectacularly awful regarding Slandaar. I would still be happy to lynch ABR.

Says he finds nothing scummy about ABR. Just finished railing on Kabooom. Then talks about lurkers. Switches vote off of lurker onto person in need of replacement (who could actually be an active poster upon replacing in, i.e. we could get an actual read from them) once momentum starts shifting that way. Further down, switches vote back once momentum is deflated.

Also, scum do try to fake town-slips: Amrun did it in Flash Mafia 4, but that vanished in the crash, CooLDog tried to do it is Good vs. Evil mafia (by faking a lack of awareness of the setup). So it certainly happens, it's just not all that common.

Fuzzybutternut also did it in Jungle Republic. This does happen enough to be a valid concern.

[Bulbazak]

Mafia's not a fucking logic contest

[Bulbazak]

bulba, you keep falling back on how I am scum and you have multiple people tell you that I am town. let's solve this first, why am I scum?

Day 1 reasons + multiple slot replacements + Appeal to Majority + commenting on the NK

Good on you, Thor.

vote: Bulbazak

This one dies Today imo.

I also do not like this. His appeal to Thor makes me uncomfortable.

Aegor, I've shown in multiple games that I do not like lynching a slot that is getting replaced, especially when I can lynch a scumread instead. ABR was a policy lynch, and I felt at the time that it was a bad lynch. Given the same circumstances, I'd resist the wagon again. It's disturbing to me that you are looking only at people who opposed the wagon when ABR flaked, and not associations between people when ABR was active.

Vote Emogirl123

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba - can you walk me through your Emogirl thoughts? As far as that slot's relation to ABR goes...I pretty strongly read town right now, so I'm curious what you see that I'm missing.

A lot of it is connected with my read of the Garmr-slot. I felt their interactions in pregame felt extremely fake. Later, when I voted Garmr, Emo flipped out, voted me, and defended him like crazy. Later, she lied and said that she wasn't defending him, when she really was. I continued to push her, and her wagon grew, but it eventually disintegrated when people started attacking Chevre. Emo's posts have continued to resonate as scummy with me, as well as those of her successors. It's true that she was the first vote on ABR, but that is a safe place on a scum buddy's wagon to distance. When Tony replaced in, he played around with the wagon for awhile before finding other avenues to push. When Nero replaced in, he also avoided the ABR wagon. Nero also was playing extremely subpar and not in the way that I'd expect him to play as town. Emo's recent play is more of the same, including using Appeal to Majority to dismiss any scumreads of her. Personally, I can't see why so many people are townreading her.

Also, if INHim's appeal to me (which was pretty blatant) makes you uncomfortable, I'd love to also hear why Emo is scummier than him.

Because my scumread on the Garmr-slot, in conjunction with her slot, is stronger.

Seems like a scum strategy to scum read emogirl the whole game.

Why would this be a valid scum strategy for the entire team, like you're suggesting?

Even by that time you have multiple people telling you that emogirl is their town read.

Again, this is Appeal to Majority and not a valid point. How does you being townread by a majority of people equal you being town?

[Bulbazak]

But still significantly (in the statistical sense) less scummy than Rainbow, whom I want to die ASAP.

Why is RBD scum? So far this looks like standard RBD play to me.

That bulb vote is a terrible coast and his pressure on your slot has been for the longest time.

And yet every time I've been asked to explain my read, I have. I've seen no serious rebuttals, other than "Emo is town" (or "townread by everyone". I still don't see how that is an acceptable defense.) or "Nuh-uh". As for my pressuring that slot for a long time, is there something wrong with continuously pressuring a slot you think is scum? Did that spontaneously become something that is unacceptable? Perhaps that explains a game full of "heck if I know" reads or players we'd rather see dead because they are contributing diddly squat, but yeah, I can see how pressuring a scumread is such a great sin.

It's true that she was the first vote on ABR, but that is a safe place on a scum buddy's wagon to distance.

Nice misrep. All I did was throw a simple bus on ABR right? Since you have been tunneling my slot this whole game, you should know best that this was not what happened. I'm going to bed.

What's the misrep again? That you were the first one on ABR, or that first spot on a buddy's wagon is a good place to sit if your aim is distancing? I don't see how either of these is disputable. For the record, I don't think you anticipated the ABR wagon taking off the way it did. It is also not indisputable that your successor, Tony, found his way off the wagon. Nor is it disputable that your slot stayed away from that wagon like it was the plague. And yet, with your slot having spent a majority of its time off the ABR wagon, you are now trying to take credit for said wagon now that it has gone through?

random thought: appealing for abr's replacement to join before lynching the slot instead of addressing why everyone is voting abr is the most incriminating of everything that had to do with abr/kaboooom.

Why is that the most incriminating?

there is little to no adaptation from him - see his vote back on that slot despite the ABR flip.

Is there some reason to think that Emo couldn't be scum with ABR? Heck, by extension, is there any reason to think that Garmr couldn't be scum with ABR? You remember Garmr, right? He was the guy who kept trying to derail building wagons d2.

Another thing that is grating on me is that Bulb also has an interaction with Fonz/Tebow that feels off to me. The biggest thing is that half way though bulb tries to brush of Fonz by claiming he wasn't paying any attention to him when all he was doing was responding to Fonz. It was just out of place and looked like he was trying to belittle fonz and I don't really get the reasoning as to why he would go out of his way to do that.

I think I've been clear on this every single time you've asked me about it. Fonz was a townread who I felt was approaching the game from a different perspective, one which I happened to disagree with. Beyond explaining a few points, I was trying not to exert myself in what I felt was a futile argument over playstyle.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulb: Post 1880.

Oh, and by the way, anyone even discussing my wagon hopping yesterday while ignoring Rainbow's clear attempt to make a kab lynch occur instead of an ABR lynch should either read the thread more carefully or just be honest with us and claim scum.

I've played with RBD before. He likes to policy lynch players that he feels will be a detriment. Of course it will make sense that he will push a slot that has consistently been useless instead of one being replaced. So again, why is RBD scum?

I've seen no serious rebuttals, other than "Emo is town" (or "townread by everyone". I still don't see how that is an acceptable defense.) or "Nuh-uh".

yawn

. Notice that Bulba keeps asking questions along the lines of "how is emo/garmr town". Click that link and read Bulba/Rainbow exchange. He asks a question, Rainbow answers vaguely and Bulba doesn't ask for clarification but changes the subject. Now he is crying about how no one is giving him a serious response.

Bulba, I know your tactic. Have everyone babysit you for the whole game thinking "aww, it's only bulba acting up again, don't worry about it!". Pro strat for scum.

RBD's answer reminded me of a previous game I played with him. He was hard headed in that game and opposed the person I was pushing as scum, who just so happened to be scum (I ended up tracking him to a kill.). I recognized that pushing further than that with him would do no good. And I don't see how asking people to explain their reads is such a bad thing.

[Bulbazak]

And I don't see how asking people to explain their reads is such a bad thing.

Except that wasn't what you were doing, it's what you want your image to be, there is a difference. If you truly cared about an answer instead of acting like you care, you would have made an attempt to discuss my slot. Instead you just ask empty questions acting like you care while parking your vote on my slot the entire game.

Asking people why they're reading you as town is not asking people to explain their reads? Did the English language change while I was not looking? And I have discussed your slot and why I'm reading it the way I am. That was a lot of d1. It's not my fault that d2 began and everybody decided you got a buy for some reason. And everytime someone asks me about my read, do you know what I do? I explain it. So saying that I'm not attempting to explain or discuss my read on you is utter BS.

[Bulbazak]

Because she felt Garmr was a poor player who scum wouldn't be able to resist attacking, therefore the first person who tried to actually build a wagon on him was likely to be scum.

Garmr is not that poor of a player, btw.

Bulba, I recall that you commented on my scum theatre act with Garmr. How about you comment now on my scum theatre act with ABR. The latter is way harder to pull off fyi.

Scum theatre? I've already said that your vote on the wagon is the perfect position for distancing and that I don't think you anticpated it growing like it did. Your replacements' actions afterwards tell the story: They stayed away from that wagon.

[Bulbazak]

@Aegor: So with the exception of defending ABR, he's doing exactly what you've been doing, only he's taking it one day at a time instead of lining them up like you did.

[Bulbazak]

Did anybody ask him about any other lurker lynch besides Kab (and no, person about to be replaced does not count as a lurker)?

[Bulbazak]

So I question your reasoning, and you decide the next step is attacking me? Also, point out where I'm chainsaw defending ABR, because I didn't know it was possible to subtly defend and chainsaw defend at the same time.

[Bulbazak]

Your replacements' actions afterwards tell the story: They stayed away from that wagon.

What story? In QT land where ABR and I conspired to mutually bus each other then all of a sudden my replacements decide to dismiss that and stay away from ABR? Was I ever quoted for my posts with ABR after I was replaced? I recall only recently where Zdenek quoted something I said where I commented on ABR's post about Slandaar's meta and a chain of Slandaar v ABR posts. What if everyone forgot why ABR was scummy except for Chevre, who ended up not even voting ABR because "yessiree dying is neon signs with scum on it hung to ABR".

I'm fairly sure there's a strawman in here somewhere. I just can't place it.

So I question your reasoning, and you decide the next step is attacking me?

If that is your summary of what has happened, my vote is well-placed.

You say Rainbow is scum for reasoning that is essentially the same as your own. I question you on it. You vote me. What am I missing?

Also, point out where I'm chainsaw defending ABR, because I didn't know it was possible to subtly defend and chainsaw defend at the same time.

Chainsaw defense is a subset of what I would call subtle defense. If you prefer "indirect" to "subtle," substitute that instead.

Chainsaw defenses are not subtle. They're pretty aggressive. Also, "indirect" and "subtle" do not mean the same thing.

Post 1634 includes a misrep of HS' ABR vote. HS voted because she found ABR scummy, and you strawmanned by stating that ABR is lurking and that is the basis for HS' vote.

I was calling him out on his hypocrisy. I never said that was the reason for his vote. Btw, what you just did actually

was

a misrep.

Post 1672 states he will examine ABR wagon (why, exactly?). Post 1719 involves as an assumption ABR's flipping town. Otherwise, it would make no sense to vote the people who want to lynch ABR at all costs. That assumption is not acknowledged and has been demonstrated to be false. The reasoning also implies that the ABR wagon is opportunistic.

The wagon on ABR built up extremely fast, and I found that to be odd and unnatural. My first instinct was that the wagon was scumdriven, which would imply ABR-town. Given that, of course I was going to analyze it. Wouldn't you?

This very post should clear me i.a., since there is clearly no motive for scum to push at all costs the wagon of a scumbuddy who has asked for replacement.

Technically it should. However, your behavior around the wagon yesterday, coupled with your behavior today is making me think something is off.

Your only real contribution to the ABR/kab wagons was persistent insistence that ABR should not be voted because he was being replaced, as if the only reason anyone was voting him was that he was a lurker.

That was the reason I was seeing pushed a lot for why he was being lynched, especially by you. I thought the other reasons were bad too, btw.

This both misrepresents some of the votes on his wagon and makes no sense in the first place: why should a scummy player who replaces out not be lynched?

I dislike voting or lynching slots that are looking for replacements. It seems rather cheap and an easy way for scum to score a mislynch. I'd rather wait for a replacement who, if town, could be a boon to the game. Saying the slot is scummy is one thing, but if there are still multiple scumreads in the game, I don't see why that slot should go first.

You furthermore chastise me for looking only at his wagon while ignoring associative tells while he was alive. If those are so important to you, why do you not provide an analysis of those tells yourself? There is no reason to outright dismiss the information provided by the flip, especially when no one else (even the ones accusing me of cursory research) has increased the knowledge bank. I provided something I thought was worth considering about ABR's potential scumbuddies. What have you done in that regard?

Saying I'm not looking at possible associatives is vastly ignoring my most recent play.

[Bulbazak]

You say Rainbow is scum for reasoning that is essentially the same as your own. I question you on it. You vote me. What am I missing?

The post in which I explained exactly how our reasoning differs substantially.

You mean that your reasoning is essentially "He voted Kaboom while I voted ABR.". That reasoning? If the votes were reversed, would you be scum?

I consider chainsaw defenses both subtle and indirect. Your semantic distinctions are a smokescreen, so let us move on plz. You now know exactly what I meant.

A chainsaw defense is by definition attacking someone because they attacked your scumbuddy. That doesn't sound very subtle or indirect. This isn't an argument over semantics if that's the freaking definition of the term you're misusing!

I was calling him out on his hypocrisy. I never said that was the reason for his vote. Btw, what you just did actually

was

a misrep.

Not at all, and your misrep persists because HS did not categorize ABR as a lurker; you did. HS explicitly stated that ABR was scummy and never even suggested that ABR is a lurker. It is not unreasonable for someone to believe that ABR's posting passed the threshold of lurker/active. Even if you did not in any way suggest that HS used lurking as justification for the vote, your point is still undermined by HS' earlier statements that lynching lurkers qua lurkers is bad policy. The vote on ABR was prepared and anticipated by this framework. You are categorizing ABR yourself and then claiming that HS was categorizing him in the same way.

At no point did I say that HS was calling ABR a lurker. I was voting him based on his hypocrisy, which is readily apparent in my very post. You saying otherwise is a blatant misrep.

The wagon on ABR built up extremely fast, and I found that to be odd and unnatural. My first instinct was that the wagon was scumdriven, which would imply ABR-town. Given that, of course I was going to analyze it. Wouldn't you?

Not until the flip.

So...Post Hoc.

Technically it should. However, your behavior around the wagon yesterday, coupled with your behavior today is making me think something is off.

I will push for my own lynch at some point if I am worried that scum are preparing my endgame mislynch by creating trajectories that defy reason and are based on unverifiable feelings.

Um...What?

Saying I'm not looking at possible associatives is vastly ignoring my most recent play.

I am seeing very little in that respect. Perhaps you could point out the pre-wagon associatives.

Well you're not exactly looking for pre-wagon associatives either. The most I've done is a quick look over the VCs. Other than that, I doubt that we'll be able to find any reliable associative tells. But congrats on changing the subject.

[Bulbazak]

You mean that your reasoning is essentially "He voted Kaboom while I voted ABR.". That reasoning? If the votes were reversed, would you be scum?

That is not at all what I said ever at any time in any way in any post at any point.

Then explain it to me, because all I see is you attacking him for wanting to policy lynch Kabooom yet no one else, when no one but Kabooom and ABR were viable.

The chainsaw defense by definition does not involve an explicit defense. It involves an attack on someone voting the buddy. Thus it can in no way be direct.

It's only a chainsaw defense if the reason for attacking you is that you're attacking their buddy. It's a strong defense of their buddy, much like a WK is a strong defense of a town player. Thus, it is a direct attack, and thus, it is in no way subtle. Don't argue definitions with me when I've actually caught scum off this.

He is not being a hypocrite, ergo your vote based on his hypocrisy is bad. In order for your original vote to make sense, HS would have to consider ABR merely a lurker about whom no substantial information exists. HS clearly did not feel that way, so his vote on ABR was not a vote on a lurker qua lurker, which he opposed. Consequently he is not a hypocrite.

HS said that voting lurkers was scummy. He then proceeds to vote a lurker slot. How is that not hypocrisy?

So...Post Hoc.

Good; you know Latin. You seem to be engaging in some paralepsis with the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but surely you know that it does not apply to my statement in any way.

You're saying that my finding the quick buildup of the ABR wagon d2 unusual is scummy or of no consequence based on data that I did not have at the time. You are using information we know now and imposing it on a place and time where that information was not available to invalidate my thought process then. How is that not Post Hoc?

The difference is that I did not attack you for not looking at pre-wagon associatives.

Point out where I've done this. All I've done so far is inquire into your reasoning for RBD-scum.

And your basis for suspecting me is, according to you, partially based on my reactions to the ABR wagon yesterday, so...

I've actually said that your vote yesterday is the only thing making me unsure on you being scum.

I will 1-1 Bulba, just in case anyone is wondering how many eggs I am putting in this basket.

So you're pitching a hissy fit, because I'm asking you to explain your logic?

@Bulba - Can you explain to me why you think ABR's push on Tony(/Nero/Emo) was a bus? Because I don't really follow that logic either. His push there and the Nero/ABR interactions as well don't really look buddy/buddy to me.

I've only looked over the VCs so far, and I'll admit that d1 in terms of ABR confuses me. I'll admit that I don't remember much about his play, other than so-so reasoning. It wouldn't surprise me that he bussed Emo, because he jumped on when it seemed the lynch was going through and for some generally poor reasoning (overconfidence?). However, he also jumped on Chevre pretty late too, so that may just be a null point. Analyzing his actions via VC opens up the possibility that all the leading wagons d1 may have been on town. However, examining it from the Emo-slot perspective offers a different story in connection with ABR. And again, I don't like how the Emo wagon disintegrated immediately when Chevre started getting wagoned. Was there something specific you saw that makes ABR/Emo unlikely?

Is anyone townreading Chevre?

I am.

On what basis?

Because he's actually trying to figure things out.

Why oppose a vote on Chevre?

Because he's town.

Bulbazak voicing displeasure for ABR's vote (better) and yet never follows up on it (bad). ((Bulba later puts Albert on the high side of his null reads (D3) - even worse))

Voicing displeasure or disagreement with a vote or reasoning does not mean that I automatically think that person is scum. Heck, look at how many times I disagreed with Zdenek.

[Bulbazak]

Then explain it to me, because all I see is you attacking him for wanting to policy lynch Kabooom yet no one else, when no one but Kabooom and ABR were viable.

This statement justifies my attack.

On who? RBD or me? Because I don't think it does in either case.

It's only a chainsaw defense if the reason for attacking you is that you're attacking their buddy.

Not true, by definition. You are more than welcome to consult the wiki in order to correct your error.

I have consulted the wiki. In fact, that's where I came across the term. Heck, during my first 6 months on the site, I practically lived on the wiki. I know what the term means and how it's used. Plus, the very image of chainsaw does not equate to a subtle and indirect attack. If you're chainsawing somebody, you're doing it on purpose.

Because

post hoc

is a fallacy of equating temporal succession with cause-effect. That does not characterize either of our arguments in this case.

You asked me to explain my reasoing d3. You then proceeded to discredit my reasoning using recent information that I had no way of knowing at the time. Maybe it's not post hoc, but it is fallacious reasoning.

Which you asked after my explanation had already been provided more than once. An ISO my my posts will confirm this.

Obviously it's not a good explanation if I have to keep asking about it.

Because he's town.

Are you admitting that you know he is town? Or would you like to rephrase that in a way that properly conveys your uncertainty?

Talk to Thor about how to best present your scum and town reads.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Aegor

[Bulbazak]

These are all super-shitty votes. Kab's in particular is unimaginably awful. The fact that a wagon happened in one page on me while it took over two weeks to get one locked down on ABR is telling.

First, it really shouldn't be a surprise that I'm voting you. Second, ABR's wagon grew quickly several times during d2 and d3, d2 especially. It's funny that you just got done trying to discredit yesterday's analysis of the d2 ABR wagon, yet now you're calling the quickness of your own wagon out.

You have a scum read on

RBD for being adamant about wanting to lynch kab before ABR. Keyword is before, there

. You were jumping around, but RBD wasn't.

I do not remember RBD actually signing off or advocating an ABR lynch at all, hence my previous comments.

He said that an ABR wagon would provide a lot of information, but he felt there were better lynches out there. I think he even said at one point that it was "an ok lynch".

[Bulbazak]

Approving of a lynch on a theoretical level is a great way to cover unwillingness to accept it in practice. His push on kab was disproportionate if he was really ok with an ABR lynch. After saying that early on, he never reviewed the ABR lynch or mentioned it at all. Which is my point.

I didn't find his push on Kab disproportionate at all. It's also false that he never mentioned the ABR lynch again. RBD was constantly inquiring into why it was a better lynch, and he even tackled what he thought was bad reasoning.

I can see how pressuring a scumread is such a great sin.

But it's really lazy pressure. You're not going out of your way to get anyone to vote with you, you just fall back on that vote when you don't seem to have anything else to do. It's like you don't believe it, the pressure feels extremely empty. And now your new point on Emo is that she was distancing her buddy, your taking the new info of an ABR flip and instead of using it to look at your positions again, you are stuffing it to fit your emo is scum view.

I've just got tired of screaming and railing at everybody. Emo is still a strong scumread, and I don't know how you can't get that from reading my ISO or looking over my posts. However, I'm tired of having to repeatedly give the case against her, because everybody has decided to give her a pass for some reason, and they keep on forgetting why she's scum.

You remember Garmr, right? He was the guy who kept trying to derail building wagons d2.

Wagons on who?

Every single wagon d2.

Oh, and can someone tell me why there are several people saying that emeraldemon is likely town? I don't get that at all, but I swear I saw some people saying that.

His posts feel very genuine, and he's actually trying to figure things out. His thought process is so clear, I'm surprised people are still scumreading him.

[Bulbazak]

and they keep on forgetting why she's scum.

No one besides you and Chevre scum read me. What are you talking about? The only reason why I haven't voted you yet is because if I don't mention Chevre, he will coast to end game.

I must have imagined your wagon d1 then.

[Bulbazak]

This, combined with the other shit Bulba has been saying this game, I'm going to

reward his bad play

by assuming that he isn't capable of any better play until Chevre hangs.

I feel as if I'm being set up, but I'm not sure how.

Bulbazak is a tricky one for me, some of his stuff I really like, but I do think his reads have been strangely unwavering, his top two scumreads still seem to be emogirl and garmr [discode], which hasn't changed since page 6 or something. That kind of stickiness can be a pretty strong scumtell.

I haven't seen anything that makes me doubt my scumread on them.

@Bulba - battle me with words, I want your thoughts on the gamestate.

There are too many people I want to kill, and not all of them are scum.

Does anyone have thoughts on High Shroomish?

He's town based on the ABR flip.

That's not the only thing. There is a reason why Chevre was placed at L-1 on Day 1 which was lost. Everything about Chevre is scum.

So, are you scum as well, since you were placed at L-1 on d1 too?

If I think someone is impossible to read, then I usually just try to make them dead to spare me the headache.

This actually explains why you've gone on a Bulba voting spree as of late.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba - talk me through these waves of scum whom you must lynch. Just names with maybe a one liner for why they're scum would be a great starting point for me.

Emo is scum for reasons I've repeatedly mentioned. I'm thinking you're beginning to see it too, but you keep disregarding your instincts and keep calling her town for some reason.
Thesp (aka the Garmr-slot) has a residual scumread from his predecessor. I have not been too impressed by his posts so far. I want to give him time, though. I'd rather not lynch him today.
Aegor I don't know anymore. Part of me wants to say town due to his association with the ABR wagon, but nothing he's done today makes sense from a town perspective, and now I just want him dead so that he'll stop clogging up the thread.
Kabooom is a policy lynch, plain and simple. He's not contributing, and I'd rather he not make it to endgame.
Inhimishallbe I keep flipflopping on. He's not as strong of a read as Emo/Thesp, but everything he posts just feels so slimy, and nothing he says seems to make sense. Null/scum instead of full on scum.

Also, though this toes the line of ongoing, it's not like I'm trying to lynch you everywhere.

I guess it just feels like it given the concentration. The same thing happened with me and Nacho shortly after Maniacal. It seemed that no matter the game, he was scumreading me for months. It got so bad that I actually went off on him at one point for taking his hurt pride out on me.

is it helping you with me? I always hope someone will someday prove capable of doing so because I'd just love to have the conversation - but I apparently remain pretty opaque for the most part...albeit, I'll admit I strive quite diligently to be so, but that's really a lot of the fun for the game when scum...the only fun, really.

I guess we'll see in the long run. I'm still not comfortable handing out a townread on you right away, similar to other players, like Nacho, Cabd, or Ffery. I tend to take my time in developing a read, as I know you're more complicated to read than most.

To emeraldemon, Bulbazak, and kabooooom (the current Aegor voters):

What would your second vote choice be?

Emo.

I give him more credit for being able to play this as a bussing scum, just based on his reputation as a good player.

So, Thor might be scum due to Burden of Proficiency? Your analysis seems kinda shallow.

Someone remind me why emerald is town. Or was it emogirl that everyone thought was town, in which case carry on.

Emerald is town, because his reactions are genuine, and he's actually trying to figure the game out instead of faking it. Emo is scum, but everybody seems to be handing her a townread for some reason.

Eh, emerald can be town, especially if Bulba's scum.

Okay, this dichotomy makes no sense. Explain.

I do not think that Thor is a particularly good lynch for today. The associative info will be minimal (he has basically voted me/ABR all game).

You do know that associative tells are more than just who a person voted for? It's also how that person interacted with others, and how others interacted with them.

Chevre seems to be on the scummy side of most players' lists. Lynching Chevre also has the benefit of compelling emogirl to do something other than call for Chevre's lynch. I happen to have a strong townread on emogirl, so this possibility is appealing to me.

So you want to lynch Chevre just to keep Emo from tunneling, even though she will likely tunnel on someone else? You seem to purposely avoid giving a read of Chevre here. Why? If she's a townread to you, or even null, why sacrifice her just to keep Emo happy? Why is that a good trade off when it's not for the purpose of finding scum?

Why am I not being rewarded for being the person who stopped your bait wagon to go through and immediately calling the person who started the wagon scum?

The crap?

I do not think that Thor is a particularly good lynch for today. The associative info will be minimal (he has basically voted me/ABR all game).

Chevre seems to be on the scummy side of most players' lists. Lynching Chevre also has the benefit of compelling emogirl to do something other than call for Chevre's lynch. I happen to have a strong townread on emogirl, so this possibility is appealing to me.

Kab would also be a great lynch because he is both scummy and useless.

This is my favorite post of the last several pages.

Why? There's enough eye twitchiness here to send my Buttercup gif into spasms.

If you think he is scum that is a spectacular reason to vote him. Thor flipping town would mean you are town, which would probably save a mislynch. Realistically though we shouldn't be lynching for information today, we should be lynching for a scum flip.

And I happen to think that other players (Chevre, kab) are more likely to flip scum than Thor, not to say that he is a townread.

[Bulbazak]

But seriously, I had no intention of hammering. Stating intent to hammer doesn't mean I had any intention to do so. In fact, if you look through my meta, I have never stated intent to hammer before hammering ever. I feel it is unnecessary.

Why hasn't this been lynched yet?

Why is that a good trade off when it's not for the purpose of finding scum?

It is for the purpose of finding scum, as I have stated more than once.

It looks like it's more for the purpose of placating Emo to me.

Emo is scum for reasons I've repeatedly mentioned.

What reasons??

Have you really not been paying attention? I've been asked this question multiple times per day, and I have to run through my reasons every single time. And what's more, you try to discredit me every single day! There's no way you don't know why I'm scumreading you at this point.

I'm bugged that a number of your reads appear policy minded over scum-motive minded.

2 out of 5 were. Inhim is a null/scum read, and the rest are scum reads. I'm also surprised that you cut out Emo and focused on the rest when you said this.

Could you re-read Rainbowdash and me? I really think she comes across as scum in those interactions, I'd like your thoughts on it whether you agree or disagree (especially since you apparently town vibe both of us.

In exchange I'll look at Thesp again - I'll admit to not a strong read on the slot in any direction.
Deal?

I'll look at the conversation again and give my thoughts later tonight. When you look at Thesp's slot, make sure you pay attention to Garmr as well.

[Bulbazak]

Why is that a good trade off when it's not for the purpose of finding scum?

It is for the purpose of finding scum, as I have stated more than once.

It looks like it's more for the purpose of placating Emo to me.

Get your eyesight checked, then.

How is wanting to vote Chevre so that Emo will stop tunneling her not placating Emo?

[Bulbazak]

That would certainly be placating Emo. That is also in no way the reason that I want to lynch Chevre.

Chevre seems to be on the scummy side of most players' lists. Lynching Chevre also has the benefit of compelling emogirl to do something other than call for Chevre's lynch. I happen to have a strong townread on emogirl, so this possibility is appealing to me.

Okay, so I'm thinking Aegor is scum with either Thor or emo. RBD, Bulba, what do you guys think?

Part of me wants to say Emo, because I'm scumreading her, but I don't think an Aegor/Emo team makes sense if Aegor is trying to get on Emo's good side. A Thor/Aegor team makes even less sense.

[Bulbazak]

Oh, and less I forget: Aegor talks about compromise lynching and then proceeds to vote the person with the smallest wagon. Because, you know, he's not trying to placate Emo or anything...

[Bulbazak]

So you've gone from "I'm not placating Emo." to "That would be placating if I said that." finally to "Yes, I'm placating Emo, but that's not my main reasons for the lynch."?

And I never once mentioned a compromise lynch.

Well, we have four days. So we should decide on a lynch soon.

[Bulbazak]

Die in a fire, Bulbazak. At no point did I state that I wanted to lynch Chevre simply because it would placate emo. At no point did I state that placating emo was a necessary condition for my vote. At no point did I state that placating emo was a sufficient condition for my vote. At no point did I deny that a Chevre lynch would placate Emo.

You have yet to point out where I am calling for a compromise lynch. Or are all lynches compromise lynches to you? If not, how can you claim that a desire to avoid a deadline speechwagon is the same as calling for a compromise lynch?

Oh, you want to get into a semantics argument? Sure, you didn't

technically

say compromise lynch, but when you point out that deadline is coming up and that we need to lynch somebody, you're essentially saying "We need to compromise on a lynch guys!". Just because you didn't say those specific words doesn't mean that you were not using the concept when you posted.

[Bulbazak]

I really hate Emo's self-consciousness, and I don't see why more people aren't scumreading her.

True. I'm a little more open to ThorScum after his backing off over Aegor today and now basically calling him town. That's kinda strange to me and I'm trying to sort it in my mind how that works. It looks like I help defuse the Aegor wagon and then he doesn't bother to fight that, which could mean he didn't really believe in the vote in the first place.

Basically I'm not buying the ABR bus.

So you say that you more open to Thor-scum, but then you say that you're not buying a bus? I don't see how those two thoughts work together at all.

Eh...I dunno, for me it's the case, I just don't think a town Rainbow would push this sort of case on me,a nd I do think a scumRainbow would be willing to toss me into a scumspect pool regardless of the amount of support that was there, and functionally I was the one who pushed the scumread into 1 v 1 territory.

So you think RBD is scum, because she's reading you as scum? That logic seems a little backwards to me.

[Bulbazak]

So it's essentially because RBD is experienced/has played with you and is reading you as scum?

[Bulbazak]

Scum QT

[Bulbazak]

It stood in stark contrast to Bulbazak, who reacted significantly differently to the possibility of his impending lynch.

I was behind and apathetic at the end, so there's that.

Also, the push that got Garmr to replace was a policy lynch based on his actions in Fire and Ice, where he threw the game for his team and played against his wincon. There's no way I want to play with such a player in any game, so I made it my mission to prioritize his lynch (which I had to go for anyway).