Star Trek Deep Space Nine Season 1 Mafia(game over!)

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

Narn had me as the weakest of his town reads - how does that even begin to make sense?

[Thor665]

That said, your case is, IMO, pretty awful. When the primary part of a case on Day 6 involves the word "feels", it kinda puts me on edge. I like hard evidence, not got reads, especially almost a week into the game.

Dislike of a playstyle does not actually negatively effect a case.

I note that you avoided the non-gut aspect of my case - which was consideration of a lynch wagon and a stated belief in bussers.
Would you like to comment on that? Or is the word "feels" so vile that it destroys the conversation before it begins?

[Thor665]

Oh, snap, wait, I'll meet you halfway;

"I *THINK* he's the one who looks like a busser"

There, now my case is legit and can be discussed as opposed to dismissed for a non-reason

[Thor665]

No, I claimed I attempted to neighborize you night1 with no success. You said you were not a commuter, that I must have been roleblocked by scum. You also asked who else I neighborized, with the answer as "no one".

[Thor665]

I don't even like the Titus slot, but the Pere slot is worse.

[Thor665]

My attitude towards massclaim is, as it generally always is; 'sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not - and you never know till after the massclaim'. If we massclaim, fine. If we don't, that is also fine. I will work with the gamestate at that point. You can call me a 'Yes' if it makes you happy.

I do know one thing - the way to make it happen is not the way you're going about it.

Why have you not been addressing my issue with your slot? We had like one back and forth and then I felt like you tucked tail and ran - why was that?

[Thor665]

The gamestate is such that I feel a massclaim will help us win the game in the shortest amount of time.

Sure? I'm not debating against the idea, nor am I advocating for it.

I was uncertain enough if you were town, so I wanted to keep pressure on you. If you were town, then scum would leave me alone since I was wrong, hoping to manipulate me in the future.
If you were scum, maybe you'd slip up.
(Slim hope, but you're tough to read.)

Not sure of your issues with my slot, since I'm the only one in it the whole game. I don't need a back and forth to know your town at this point.
Trying to scumhunt me will be a waste of time because I should pretty much be the NK tonight.

Because of that, I want all of the "confirmed town" to focus on the last 4 scum.

Meeeeeeeh.

[Thor665]

If you were town, then scum would leave me alone since I was wrong, hoping to manipulate me in the future.

Why didn't this idea crop up with CDB?

[Thor665]

Yes, and scum Left you alone" right?
So - why didn't that twig him to town for you?

[Thor665]

Could you define "scum leaving you alone" for me, as in how it manifests. You are feeling really wriggly in your answers to things today - I am not fond.

[Thor665]

1. There is nothing stopping you or others from doing this if other people still suspect, or claim to suspect, her.
2. Yes - and that nobody is pushing that should tell you something.

That is all a matter of opinion based on what people think happened with the cop result on her.

[Thor665]

Why did "scum leave you alone" as regards CDB then and why didn't that effect your read on the slot?

[Thor665]

Why did "scum leave you alone" as regards CDB then and why didn't that effect your read on the slot?

Are you asking why they didn't kill me BEFORE CDB?

Maybe rephrase the question....

No - what I am asking is; with them *not* killing you - why did you not appear to consider that CDB was town?

[Thor665]

I corralled the town into a scumlynch yesterday.

You did?

[Thor665]

@Thor, yes. Look at the posts I quoted in the spoiler. They tell the story. After I voted ika, the votes piled on.

They did, eventually, after a day+ and with no clear connection to your vote.
Except maybe Riabli. I'd hand you that one.
None of that construes 'pushing a wagon' though.
I still find you townish for the push, as already stated, but don't spit and tell me it's raining.

[Thor665]

Why won't you answer our questions?

Because he won't - read him from that refusal and move on. It will make for a shorter thread.

[Thor665]

Why won't you answer our questions?

Because he won't - read him from that refusal and move on. It will make for a shorter thread.

You seem upset that Titus asked... why? Do you really care about thread length at this point?

Yes.
I am upset because it is a pointless conversation topic that Pere has already repeatedly answered. Do you really think asking him the same thing for the third time will get a different answer?
I don't.
And I don't need to read twenty posts about it either.

[Thor665]

This conversation feels very circular, and has for a number of pages.

Does anyone town read St. Augustine? The mod missed my vote move to Pere, but I am fine with that and am content enough to be lynching St. Augustine at this point.

(and because mods are fickle and untrustworthy)

Unvote: Pere
Vote: St. Augustine

But, seriously - anyone with a town read there?

Also, if we're going to massclaim we should start that now, or drop it as a conversation snooze fest.
Frankly I'm mildly annoyed at both Pere and Psyche's little "oooh, secrets" play. Look, twists - you either have valid info or you don't. So reveal or zip it. And if you need a massclaim to have the info be valid and interesting - you don't even grok how interesting it is, so I really lean zip it. What is this gak? Start a massclaim or play the game. I am quite done with the game theory discussion going nowehere for 5+ pages. Thanks.

[Thor665]

When I'm not neighborizing, I'm also an Oracle. I can ask game setup related questions, but cannot ask who is mafia and who is town. I could, for example, ask "Is there a town lightning rod in the game?", or "Is there a town conditional tracker in the game?"

Why would you ever neighborize?

[Thor665]

I still think Augustine looks more like a bus than Titus.

[Thor665]

I still think Augustine looks more like a bus than Titus.

If it were a bus, then you would be scum, because you are the only one here voting for me.

I am commenting on your votes on Ika, not the wagons currently on each of you.

It must be an outspoken town + followers vs an outspoken scum + followers.

Why?

[Thor665]

also i've decided that titus is town and will now vigorously her from further condescension and also lynch

Sheep me.

[Thor665]

woo no need to think anymore

When did you stop?

[Thor665]

Psyche. Imagine for a moment that our theory of 4 remaining scum is wrong and there is in fact 5. Now look at the number of players left, 12. If we mislynch today and they kill tonight and there is 5 left instead of 4, they win. So I do not see it impossible that they are placing their hard bets on trying to get a Pere lynch.

On top of that, Titus and Riabi's "scum hunting" comes down to accusing anyone against them as scum for basically no reason. Before today, Titus was buddy buddy with me and now that I am onto her, she is yelling wolf. Do you not think that behaviour is strange?

So what you're suggesting is that, yesterday, with 6 scum in play, and a win within their grasp - that both Titus and Riabi decided to hard bus their buddy and Riabi did so by claiming a sheep of the case that Titus made?

How does that make any sense.
Frankly, it doesn't make much sense with 5 scum - which it pretty much has to be if you think Pere is town, which you seem to be implying, so the 6 is right out regardless, and the 5 still doesn't make much sense as a bus move.

The Titus+Riabi concept makes very little sense to me as a pairing based off that alone.

Yeah, Psyche's scum too. That vote on me is terribad.

Psyche is looking immensely more town to me than you, and I'm townish on you - so what are you smoking?
Frankly, a derp comment like this makes you look worse to me, so, seriously, what are you smoking?

[Thor665]

VOTE: ika

Ika's dodging which is 100% his scum meta.

VOTE: ika

Ika's dodging which is 100% his scum meta.

Yeah, agreed. Anyone who has played with him knows his meta, I'd suspect.

VOTE: ika

Posts made within 3 minutes of each other.
And people are calling that a bus *and both* partners?

C'mon...

I could easily and happily buy one of them as scum, but both? This needs serious explanation.

[Thor665]

Are we not going to have an actual conversation about the merits of the case on titus.

Not from me.

If I say she's Scum then I get accused of being Scum.

If I say she's Town (which I won't) then I get accused of being Scum.

Whining dodge to avid giving reads?
You're sounding like scum

Seriously though - don't do that, it does sound like scum. If you're town, state your beliefs. That's how the game is played.

[Thor665]

@St. Constatine - I have a question for you.

@mod Requesting Replacement.

I discovered larges are too large for me. Sorry, just can't keep up.

Marcrelll (aka - Constantine)
Requests replace out.

lock topic

Night 1 begins.

Night 2 ends
(expired on 2015-06-04 22:42:08)

Night 2 (double Night) ends...

Displaced has replaced Marcrell.

Displaced replace in.

Who submitted the roleblock on Pere Night 1?

[Thor665]

@Titus - claim and then popcorn please. We are doing this, and your resistance at this point seems more stubborn than strategic. Unless you can explain to me how not claiming will help a town wincon at this stage?

@Pere - I would also like to hear your other questions. So far you have revealed two questions and two answers - give me the other questions, you can hold out on the answers if you'd like. But I want/need to see those questions, because I now have some issues.

[Thor665]

@Thor- looking at ika's lynch. Are there any of the green or blue you have a problem with being called town?

I find the Sinsum clear iffy at best. Also you.
Otherwise, no.

PV - Sinsun - Psyche - 1 more at least.

How do you feel about the roleblocker?
My wagon is accepting sheep.

They are all pretty much towing the same line that massclaim would be detrimental to town, when it is obviously the best time to do it. They all think I'm scum for pointing it out and pushing it, and they all have a million reasons why the 6 town CAN'T be town, and are able to ignore all other scummy actions from the ones that need to be figured.
I have no doubt that if ika said "lynch me for towncred" that scum would be all over it.

You are stating a reasonable concept to suspect one of them as scum - I fail to see why two scum would go into hard lockstep - especially on a couple of issues that are game theory based.

I mean, literally what you're describing reads to me more like 'town does derp and scum sheeps or vice versa - and that at least is as worthy a thought as calling both of them scum, so why discount it?

Titus, you said you would claim at L-1, do it.

I am a 2 shot roleblocker. Everyone else claim.

I will admit I don't like this claim for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that there is a theory Doc out there.

Sorry about that, I thought Peregrine asked me if I roleblocked him last night. I don't scan the game like all you fanatics.

Yeah, I think this is a fakeclaim, guys.

Sheep me?

If he is not the roleblocker, he is claiming it to take the lynch away from Titus.

There would be absolutely no reason to do that if Titus were town. He would just let nature take his course, and the mislynch would go through.

I am fully willing to believe he's a roleblocker - what does that have to do with anything?
Nor do I see how his claim shifts the wagon off Titus.

So, scum are in their chat discussing why no one should massclaim, it's very bad. Augustine the Hermit, Rouge Roleblocker and Roustabout, says, "Nay, to the rescue of fair Titus, she must not be lynched for the town will discover her true towniness if that happens."
And despite the rest of his team begging and pleading, he just does it.

Is that your contention?

Aren't Titus' scum reads the one advancing massclaim?
This feels straw-manny.

[Thor665]

@Thor - How does outing a doctor help the town's wincon? It's likely the only PR we have left on balance. Will review what you say and think once I'm done with mod setup for my game.

I would rather have a clear than a protect in the game.

What else do you have?

[Thor665]

Also, are you arguing that scum would still have no idea who the Doc is at this stage?

[Thor665]

@Thor, If scum shoot the doctor, we get the same conftown either way. If scum don't know the doctor, they take a chance on having their kill target be healed. I don't see how getting the conftown now, and just condemning them to die is helpful in the slightest.

I can mildly buy that logic.

Are you voting Constantine with me yet?

[Thor665]

Was voting before you asked the first time. Forgot to quote that for you.

When you spent over half the day pushing Pere for a case I couldn't even explain back to you - I felt obligated to just keep double checking.

[Thor665]

What do you think of PV, Little Gumball and Sinsun all completely ignoring Constantine's behavior or saying that we lynch him after you? Am I crazy to think that's buddies protecting buddies?

I will agree that shows poor play.
I fail to see how it makes them all buddies. Again, could I see buddies doing that? Sure. Do I expect *all* of them to do that? No.

I've got some conspiracy theory here and it's probably wrong but I think if Constantine's a scum fakeclaim then he purposely claimed to save Titus because she's more important than he is. It's a little far-fetched but not entirely impossible.

I asked this question to Pere, I'll ask it to you.
How did the claim save Titus in any way at all?

Marcell sent in the roleblock on D1.

So, after being too stressed to play the game he lurked around and submitted a roleblock on a slot that he had never claimed suspicion of?

Suzune, I think most people would find it more strange if I still had shots on D6.

I find it more strange that, for you to be telling the truth, either scum has a roleblocker *and* town does, or that Suzunne is lying.
Since I also find RBer+Doc to be weird, I am very interested in flipping you.

[Thor665]

not quite sure what thing to do now
pretty sure sinsun is town though if i wasn't before

Where are you at on Titus and Constantine - the players who are up for lynch?

[Thor665]

Also I believe its fair to say the scum team is either on the "for claiming" or "against claiming" bandwagon

[Thor665]

@Sinsun and Thor

THE TREESTUMP ISN'T SCUM.

Cool.

Help me flip Constantine and we'll talk again tomorrow.

[Thor665]

You guys suck, I'm tired of this game

No last reads then?

[Thor665]

Sure.

So you have no last reads?

[Thor665]

If Titus is town, then Peregrine is scum.

Shouldn't you want us to lynch Pere first though?

[Thor665]

I mean, if you're town then Pere is either an utter idiot or scum, yeah?

[Thor665]

Lead the charge on Constantine.

*cough*
You did what in the where now?
I lead that charge - blatantly.
What are you trying to fake sell now? Because you were a townish read for me up until this load.

[Thor665]

Oh and sixth, why didn't you ask what roles town has? That would give scum a death sentence in a massclaim if you were town.

He openly claimed to have done this.

[Thor665]

You were first on. No doubt about that. You could probably be described as a co leader, but I clearly pushed Constantine hard. You could argue survivalism sure, but I wanted constantine dead.

Oh and sixth, why didn't you ask what roles town has? That would give scum a death sentence in a massclaim if you were town.

He openly claimed to have done this.

No he asked verification of Suzune's role in the post I quoted I believe. Can you show me your interpretation?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7108741

[Thor665]

To explain my face in layman's terms.

There is a big difference between being on a wagon, pushing the wagon, and leading the wagon.
And an even more massive difference due to timing of said choices.

[Thor665]

@Klingon - as town and treestump, and as a way to test Pere's info more (since he just did help nail a scum...not that we needed outing for that I would have thought, but still ) would you support lynch of yourself today - that way when you flip town we know for a fact that Pere is scum and can lynch him tomorrow?

Functionally we have the spare lynch at this stage unless you are of the mindset that we started with more than 5 allied scum.

@Perv, Did you deduce what roles were on the scumteam based on a flavor narrative or did the mod specifically tell you something along the lines of

[Scum have the following PR roles: roleblocker, motivator, etc...]

OR

[Scum have the look of angels, the spirit of two men ... blah blah blah]

I support this question.

Also, Titus, remind me which scum you were the counterwagon to?
Because I'm pretty sure the timing of the wagon will say you were the counter to Pere or he was the counter to you (I forget which, and it doesn't really matter as you are both Schrodinger's Mafia right now functionally). You were not a counter to Augustine.
Nor to ika (who had no counterwagon)

Also, if you have an issue with Pere's claim (and the scum it helped lynch...y'know, besides you leading it ...what do you see as his cum plan in that buss? Just to save himself over a non-limited roleblocker? What's his role then?

@Mod - incidentally, I am not a big fan of you posting a truncated vote count at lynch as opposed to a full vote count. The full count would be much more useful, and I can't see any reason to cut out the other wagon info from every lynch post since you must still be tracking votes at that stage.

[Thor665]

I also still wouldn't ind hearing anyone explain the concept of how Augustine's claim was an attempt to save Titus.
I still don't understand that and a couple people said it like they understood and believed it - and I really am lost on that concept.

[Thor665]

@Thor, I was a CW to Augustine.

No, you were not.

I don't define CWs in terms of chronology. That's a semantic and time debate. The fact is that scum had to choose between mislynching me or voting Augustine. That to me is a CW. If you need evidence of my definition, just look at any game where I analyze the vote counts. Speaking of that, I need to do my VCA here.

What votes were added to your wagon as the wagon on Augustine grew?

I saw PereV's plan as to lynch me and Hermit slip was unplanned. They couldn't figure out how to handle it, so they figured it best to try to have people ignore Hermit's slip and try to bolster PV's claim. Yet, the way that Sinsun opened gives me minute doubts about PereV being scum, just due to the way she's treating his claimed as confirmed true.

Why wouldn't a Three Stooges style team just do that also?

Do you like my plan to lynch the treestump as a second Pere test - or do you think that's another scumbuddy he's bussing? (in which case, it's still a good plan)

[Thor665]

What votes were added to your wagon as the wagon on Augustine grew?

@Titus - going back to answer this for myself I looked at all votes that happened after the roleblock claim.
The answer is Sinsum (and Constantine at the 11th hour so that it doesn't matter)

So - you're convinced that Sinsum is scum now, 100%? Because otherwise you're not a counterwagon to scum.

[Thor665]

Fourth, you continue to go down the same argument pushing the same points despite me being a known counterwagon to scum.

And since you're talking to Sinsum here and not throwing that in his face...

[Thor665]

I used the pronouns exactly as English dictates.

'You're" = Titus.
"His" = Sinsum.

[Thor665]

That is the pronoun which confused me.

Reference the previous post 'that' = the awareness that Sinsum would have been the only scum to try to counterwagon you.

Lynching PerV is better than Klingon. PerV confirmed Klingon as scum if he's town and gathers much more information about the setup if we are wrong. Lynching Klingon and being wrong just nets us PerV scum. Lynching PerV and getting scum shows that PerV was trying to buddy/sneak through a buddy. Lynching Klingon and getting scum doesn't confirm PerV's information as true, as you said he could be bussing.

So, basically, you're saying that if a cop claimed a guilty on someone in non-lylo/mylo you'd lynch the cop claim first?
Because that seems to be what you're saying to me.

None. Scum were already on my wagon PerV. Town wouldn't vote me, because of Hermit's slip. CW's are about the choices town and scum making, not chronology of specific votes.

To be a counterwagon you need to...y'know, "counter" something.
Even if they're all scum - you still wouldn't be a counterwagon to Constantine - you'd be a counterwagon to Pere.

I don't know what you mean by a "Three Stooges Team". I'm familiar with who the three stooges are, but I don't how that applies to mafia.

You're basically describing them as having some atrocious play, so I'm wondering why you wouldn't suppose the possibility of further atrocious play.

[Thor665]

Lynching PerV is better than Klingon. PerV confirmed Klingon as scum if he's town and gathers much more information about the setup if we are wrong. Lynching Klingon and being wrong just nets us PerV scum. Lynching PerV and getting scum shows that PerV was trying to buddy/sneak through a buddy. Lynching Klingon and getting scum doesn't confirm PerV's information as true, as you said he could be bussing.

Like, the more I read this the weirder it gets to me.

You are arguing that there is 'getting Pere and learning that he was trying to buddy/sneak through a buddy' but at the same time argue that if Klingon flips town (which would result in getting Pere) then we *only* get Pere...why wouldn't we also learn about this buddy/sneak buddy.

Also, even if it is a buss on Pere's point, I still fail to see the logic to lynch Pere first of the two scum. Does it really matter which scum we lynch first at that stage? Because you seem to think it does.

[Thor665]

Like, isn't it worth it to lynch a town Treestump in non mylo/lylo to net an assured scum lynch the next day?
If I'm wrong clue me in to how I'm wrong - I can be wrong, I'm just not grokking.

[Thor665]

My mind isn't

set

on there being 5+ Scum, but I just don't know... and at this point in the game I'm nervous about lynching a Townie to catch a Scum.

Let me think about it.

Well, for starters, we had a 21 player start.
There are 10 alive now.
Scum have lost 2.
Yesterday scum didn't win with 12 alive, so they had, at most, 5 alive at that point. So, maximum 4 alive today.
If you think they have 4 and a 6 start, you should oppose the plan.
Otherwise there are only 3 scum (or less) alive right now, and your lynch will net us Pere and you can still help scumhunt.

So, frankly, number of scum left alive is your only debate point.

Here we have a setup, where if PV is right, his lynch settles the game. Klingon is confscum. Then we mass claim. If PV is scum, then we save ourselves a huge headache.

So you would support massclaim after a Pere town flip but not prior?

If we lynchKlingon, we don't know if PV was bussing or honest if scum. If Klingon flips town, we gave scum a free setup mislynched based on something full of swiss cheese holes and get PV scum.

If PV flips town we give scum the same thing - I fail to spot the difference.

TLDR: Klingon flip doesn't confirm anything about PV's setup claims.

That does bring us back to the concept that, to a degree, he's a cop who has handed us a correct guilty (albeit sloppily and late, so I can understand you issue...slightly)
But you don't think it's worth it to test a second one just to see?
Because I will agree it doesn't "prove" but, frankly, a double bus would be pretty ballsy, and I'd be willing to keep sheeping till he's proven wrong.

[Thor665]

My mind isn't set on there being 5+ Scum, but I just don't know... and at this point in the game I'm nervous about lynching a Townie to catch a Scum.

Let me think about it.

How about you discuss with me who you think is basically assured 'not scum' at this stage?

[Thor665]

Yes, if Pere is town and Oracle, I would support a massclaim. I just think he's full of Smurf.

How did scum him come up with that color coded post?

[Thor665]

So you think he is an Oracle and did indeed ask what PRs were in the game, and then knew ahead of time to set up a claim for a potential bus on one of his scumbuddies?

[Thor665]

PV didn't orchestrate any bus Thor. He was off ika and Hermit. #confused

Vote: St Constantine the Hermit

He is scum.

Dave, if PV was deliberately bussing, he would have said.. Ooh roleblocker claim and voted it. He also would have made sure we knew in no uncertain terms that Hermit was scum. Instead, getting him to talk about Hermit was like pulling teeth. That's not consistent with a bus.

Vote: St Constantine the Hermit

He is scum.

As for lynching PV, I think he's scum (but not as likely as Sinsun). If PV is telling the truth, lynching him gets us a confscum, and a mass claim breaking strategy similar to Playing With Elements. Provided there is one PR remaining and two vts, scum create two definite pools based on their fake claim. I would presume Klingon wouldn't bother with a fakeclaim.

I'm still asking you to explain his breadcrumb post to me in the context of him being scum.
I will agree Simsun makes more sense as scum with that you're saying you believe, but am also still asking you to explain why it took you so long to vote her.
I am willing to buy that Klingon is a treestump (Pere claims this also) I fail to really see how that confirms him as town.

[Thor665]

@Thor, These VCs need work. I just looked and I didn't see PV on Hermit.

I will agree that the mod's votecounts require more effort than some other mods to get a clear understanding of what's going on from them.

Still that was a forced hand vote at best. The Hermit slip did not appear planned, nor was it advantageous. If it was planed, as you are proposing, then it only would have happened if they though scum was going to be lynched anyway. If they thought I was going to be a mislynched, there is zero reason for a coordinated slip.

I am not arguing that the slip was coordinated.
Frankly, I don't even really consider it a 'slip' and have missed how other people decided it was - unless we're just talking the 'knew he blocked Pere but isn't sure who he blocked' thing or the 'not RBing on the lightning rod night' thing, but I thought he looked scummy as hell long before that.
If Pere's vote was a forced hand, couldn't the same be said about you and everyone not voting him prior to his claim?

I am explaining his crumb. He's setting up a narrative. I do this all the time as scum. If you know your fake claim is X, then you can crumb accordingly.

That's still a pretty intense crumb, and also worked in a bus on a player who hadn't 'slipped' yet - that seems...unlikely, yeah?

PereV gives more information if I am wrong, Sinsun got a vote, Klingon's case was at least valid, and his behavior is scummier. All things being equal, I would vote Pere.

So you are stating that Klingon looks scummy? Okay, didn't now you thought that.
I'm still not following your desire to lynch Pere, really, he has a really clever confluence of happy coincidence and insightful pre-play to be scum at this stage, doesn't he?
Did he set it all up in reaction to the cop? Or was it just random derp brilliance, or what?

You're accussing Pere of kind of floating around in his story and being hard to pin down about thoughts on Hermit.
I very much am feeling the same way about you - I feel like I'm having to pull teeth to get you to explain the logic of how you reached your thoughts, and the answers usually seem really wispy and ghostish.

[Thor665]

Also, there's exit hatches. Crumb, set it up. If he townreads Hermit, you'd bet your Smurf we would be hearing about the distinction between 2 shot roleblocker and roleblocker.

I can sort of get behind this, but the scum didn't flip 2-shot. If he had I would be down to lynch Pere right now. But he didn't.

I am not sure how I am being wispy or ghostish at all. I think this is another case of town (you) not wanting to follow the better EV play because it disagrees with your worldview. I just finished the same situation in Dating game. Persivul used the same rationale you did here despite me being clear open and honest about the better play.

I'm not sure you're showing it as a better play. Currently your argument against lynching the Treestump first (he might be town) applies equally to lynching Pere first (he might be town), so I am at a loss as to why one is "better" in your opinion outside of actual town.scum reads of the two slots.

That's a debate of read - not a debate of strategy.
What am I missing?

Lynching PV guarantees us a scum lynch within two days.

So does a Klingon lynch, unless you're saying they can both be town...is that what you're saying?

I meant Sinsun's behavior was scummier in my last post. Misplaced modifier.

My only issue with the slot is the smarminess of it currently, but I could see that coming from town. Is there anything else?
I am not counting the 'counterwagon' on you as particularly scummy at this stage since I don't have your role PM.

[Thor665]

@Thor, You mean other than the absolute tunnel on my slot, melodrama, her "withholding" the use of her priest ability on me, her complaint about her team not having any mislynched plus the tunnel on me, her wking of Pere.

Tunneling is not scummy.
Melodrama is not scummy.
I don't get how the priest thing is scummy - clarify?
I don't get how the mislynch thing is scummy and don't even recall that conversation - clarify?
White Knighting falls under the smarminess for me, yes, I'm aware of that - but could easily see town doing the same.

I do agree that both PV and Kligon are unlikely to be town. Yet, lynching Klingon and she flips scum doesn't confirm Pere as telling the truth. He could be bussing Klingon. That would allow Pere to slip through the cracks because he told us the role of his scumbuddies. We would still have the "was Pere bussing debate".

So you then agree that, functionally, it doesn't matter what order we lynch them in? Your only issue is a desire to lynch Pere.
Want to lynch Klingon today?

As a practical matter, a changing number of shots is a policy scumread to me since InuYasha. You pulled the same stunt in Aero's game and I immediate ly voted you. If Pere is town, scum are unlikely to shoot Pere because it confirms Pere as telling the truth.

In Aero's game you voted me for refusal to claim number of shots - not for having my shot number change. Do you consider those two things identical? I don't.

[Thor665]

@Thor, You mean other than the absolute tunnel on my slot, melodrama, her "withholding" the use of her priest ability on me, her complaint about her team not having any mislynched plus the tunnel on me, her wking of Pere.

Tunneling is not scummy.
Melodrama is not scummy.
I don't get how the priest thing is scummy - clarify?
I don't get how the mislynch thing is scummy and don't even recall that conversation - clarify?
White Knighting falls under the smarminess for me, yes, I'm aware of that - but could easily see town doing the same.

I do agree that both PV and Kligon are unlikely to be town. Yet, lynching Klingon and she flips scum doesn't confirm Pere as telling the truth. He could be bussing Klingon. That would allow Pere to slip through the cracks because he told us the role of his scumbuddies. We would still have the "was Pere bussing debate".

So you then agree that, functionally, it doesn't matter what order we lynch them in? Your only issue is a desire to lynch Pere.
Want to lynch Klingon today?

As a practical matter, a changing number of shots is a policy scumread to me since InuYasha. You pulled the same stunt in Aero's game and I immediate ly voted you. If Pere is town, scum are unlikely to shoot Pere because it confirms Pere as telling the truth.

In Aero's game you voted me for refusal to claim number of shots - not for having my shot number change. Do you consider those two things identical? I don't.

[Thor665]

Sinsun said she couldn't be scum because scum couldn't have a role that lacked hammer power. Yet, she thinks Klingon, a role that can remove its own vote power, cannot be town. That doesn't make sense.
Sinsun has been pushing an agenda that scum only have so many mislynches left. It seems to reflect more of her mindset that she only has so many players she can safely push on.
Town Whiteknight when we have a reason to believe the player is town. Yet, I don't see that investigation and then reaching a conclusion from Sinsun.

I see some sloppy play that might be scummy, but must admit I am not remotely getting the strength of read you're getting off it.

I disagree on the order, which I have said a lot. In terms of long term game strategy, Pere is the better flip.

And I have directly challenged this concept, pointed out that your biggest reason for not lynching Klingon first is illogical.
What if I promise to support your idea of lynching Pere tomorrow if we lynch Klingon first - I mean, do you actually think Klingon is town?

I do consider your action, the actions by Y n B in InuYasha, and your actions in the game we referenced as the same. YnB technically supplemented after implying it was full shot for days. Here, PV waits forever to say oh by the way I'm two shot.

He claimed it in the same phase - if it was a different day I'd be more enraged by it, but a slow trickle of a claim made at non L-1 seems reasonable to me. Like, if he was town and had the info he claims to have - would it not have made sense to slowly reveal his info? I would have - you wouldn't?

[Thor665]

@Titus;

For my stance.

I am not of a mind to lynch Pere today.
Nor Sinsum.
I am also against lynching Suzune, Gumball, and Dave.
To my mind they are currently, if not confirmed, not viable lynch options.

So, that leaves Nero, Riabi, Klingon, and you.
Of that grouping I find Klingon by a solid margin the most suspect.
Probably you are next, with the other two lingering in the back edge.

So talk to me about lynched from that lynch pool - since you seem aware that I am basically confirmed town (or relatively close to it) as both a Cop and Pere have tried to protect me and probably at least one of them has PR info on that, not to mention my role, and my play.

So talk to me from that set - since you'll rule yourself out it gives you 3 people to find 1-2 partners to Sinsum and Pere, yeah?

[Thor665]

@Klingon - does your self stump end the day? I would presume not, if you are town, as then there is no purpose to having that ability, but I'd like you to confirm that since if I ask the Mod I'll be told it's a theory question and he'll refuse to answer.

[Thor665]

Except you haven't. Klingon lynch =/= PerV as town, even if she is scum. I'm not townreading Klingon. The Klingon push is the same recycled push on me for the same ZOMG so many town reasons. I don't see any reason to lynch Klingon other than to prove the theory. Yet, if that's why we're lynching PerV is a better lynch.

The theory is well worth testing, because your theory for how scum Pere can exist becomes thinner and thinner with every scum lynch he hands us.
And I see no reason to lynch Pere other than your oddly paranoid belief that he is gaming us by hard bussing buddies.

Like, even if there's a 50/50 for Pere to be town (which you seem to believe, and is less of a chance than random) that is still a substantially higher chance for Klingon to be scum than Pere.

I wouldn't have slowrolled the information. We had a huge debate about massclaim. No reveal. If his goal was to catch scum, then he'd be much better of stating I know all the roles in the game. We are massclaiming. Scum would be just as "caught" either way. They claim their real role, then they are busted. By pretending to not know anything and pushing for massclaim to find the doctor, it looks disingenous, like he's explaining why he was caught rolefishing for the doctor. The scum know all the scum roles, it's the nature of being scum. If massclaim didn't happen (as it shouldn't because only people who know Pere's town and have Pere's info should push for massclaim), then he should be aware that resistance to his plan is townie. I would have sat on the information until I had a roleblocker or a tracker claim and voted it, as PereV was in no danger of death.

Doesn't justify the paranoia required to believe that the breadcrumb was faked ahead of time with the intention of bussing if needed, and a buss that just so happened to land on the biggest goof of a partner who slipped.

Your inability to Ockham is starting to concern me.

Great, you want to lynch town. *eyeroll* I don't want a me, Klingon, Riabli, you, Suzune or Dave lynch.\
I want to lynch Sinsun, PerV, Gumball, or if I stretched and there wasn't a shot in hell Nero (just because of his utter silence lately).

So you see Gumball and/or Nero as scumbuddy to Sinsum+Pere?

What happened to your theory possible town read of Pere after Sinsum's push on him? How do those two make sense as a team?

[Thor665]

There is one more town PR.
It's not a doctor.
Town also enjoys 2 scoops of

Vanilla

ice cream.
If Gumball is not the last PR, then the last PR can claim, and the rest can be safely lynched.

If there is a town doctor then this is a lie and PV is scum.

If no town doctor, then the scum doc saved Suzune (perhaps inadvertently) and PV is telling the truth. If he's telling the truth and is scum then it's a really ballsy truth, to have outed multiple scum roles. So I think town is much more likely.

Pedit: Thor, I have a yes/no question for you as well. Do you have a role with actions?

@Dave - I see no value in trying to rob me of that info, Pere has called me town, I'd focus on the Titus, Riabi, Nero question if I was you, myself.

@Titus - also wanted to quote this. Like, if we had a town Doc, they would know Pere was scum at this point. And they sat back and let a lynch he helped push and voted on go through on a claimed town PR. That was really terrible play for theory Doc.

How about we lynch Klingon, and if a town Doc claims or dies anytime in the near future then we can debate lynching Pere?

[Thor665]

Occam's Razor says you get the facts and not assumptions. The assumptions PereV wants are convinent, but they are assumptions, just like Walking Dead.

Ockham's razor is about assessing assumptions.

Yours require vastly more contrivance than mine, and are thus ruled less likely.
Then you sit around with a paranoid theory and act like I'm playing badly because I don't want to test it first over the more likely reality with a razor thin debate as to why it would even be better in any case.

[Thor665]

@Thor, you see that you don't like Dave fishing you for info. Nor do I. Yet, PerV's claim (gee all the PRs that have claimed are town) seems structured to get the last PR to claim and get information out that way. Claiming is bad. Let's not help scum anymore than we already have.

I am not pushing for further claims - I'm pushing for further lynches or stumpings.

[Thor665]

Your way requires that Pere, as scum, breadcrumbed multiple town roles, and a single scum role and called them all scum, knowing that the scum would not kill those town PRs but would end up bussing that scum PR.

Hint: that's actually a pretty big assumption and you have not justified that belief beyond paranoia - I would love to hear more concrete theories about his gameplan going into that one.

[Thor665]

Your way requires that Pere, as scum, breadcrumbed multiple town roles, and a single scum role and called them all scum, knowing that the scum would not kill those town PRs but would end up bussing that scum PR.

And also he did it as a way to arrange a single mislynch (for the cost of two scum) and theory out a Doc to boot...maybe (presuming they hadn't already killed the Doc, which he had called scum in the post)

[Thor665]

Ok so Klingon is confirmed mafia. So we confirmed that PerV gave a few accurate flips. Boo hoo.

My thoughts though, why would Klingon knowingly activate her treestump knowing that confirms her as mafia to the group? The only reason to do that is to make PerV look good FMPoV. Scum Klingon can just be lynched, caused more disruption in the town and die.

I agree, that is odd on some level - though I did have him positioned in a logic corner it would have been more pro-scum to obligate us to do the lynch.
It might also explain why Hermit was so pissy about his team at the end.

Would you support a Doc claiming?
If a Doc claims, there is pretty much assured at least 1 scum between them and Pere - I would support a Doc claim, would you? Especially in the situation of our now assured scum free lynch thanks to that stumping.

[Thor665]

I am not sure, but I am leaning towards it. The odds of two doc saves a minimal at best but I just don't like the thought of handing scum free reign on who they kill. Yet with this many people getting two doc saves is difficult.

We would hand them the Doc, who *already* isn't amongst a reasonable town bloc that exists - even by your own admission.
In exchange we would get an assured scum lynch in 1 (if PV is scum, as you claim) or 2 - after already losing a scum.

Why wouldn't you be behind this? Seems like a good plan to me.
I already netted you one scum using my method - why are you against it this time?

[Thor665]

Pv needs to reveal the town role.

Meh, I am fine with the situation as stands - what are your thoughts on obligatory Doc claim?

[Thor665]

@Thor, I'm not even sure what your method is.

Getting scum dead.
Note the last two scum deaths.
Thank you.

A doctor is the most powerful town role and someone who I usually feel should be protected at all costs.

You are wrong.
Doc is a chump role.

Selling a doctor up the river in exchange for one scum isn't exactly something I want to do lightly. I'm starting to think no one is going to claim doctor though anyway so :S

I would trade 1 town PR for 1 scum all day, everyday, in all my town games and would count myself a good player.

If no one would claim Doctor, then that confirms Pere as town, yeah? Or scum bussing...3 scum?

[Thor665]

No doctor would only be possible if the lightning rod is bulletproof, or no kills were submitted.

Or the lightning rod is scum, which I am finding increasingly unlikely but it's still possible.

I will agree that a lack of a doctor claim either cements Pere more as town or requires you to start considering the Rod as scum, yes.

[Thor665]

Of course that would then make Sinsum town - yeah, Titus?

[Thor665]

All I am saying is your Pere/Sinsum team kind of makes no sense now unless we get a Doc claim. Agree?

[Thor665]

A lack of Doc claim supports PV town in my head - so you really need to explain why it doesn't if you want my help lynching him.

[Thor665]

A Doc claim would have me wanting to lynch PV so you should also explain why that makes him town in your mind.

[Thor665]

PV scum likely knows there's no doctor. So he claims scum have one. Then, he can put a buddy in the town section while town try to find the doctor that doesn't exist.

But that would require Suzunne to be scum or for scum to have no killed, yeah?

PV is claiming a full doctor for scum versus a 2 shot vig...

Yeah - I'm not arguing that Doc would be a powerful role for scum, but I've assuredly seen Scum Docs versus questionable killing capabilities on Town's side.

@Pere - you're describing Suzune's role as simply a lightning rod, yeah?

@Suzune - after he confirms that, would you be willing to talk about this other power you had - and/or at least confirm exactly what your rolename is?

[Thor665]

It's just Nero and Riabi left to claim 'not Doc', yes?

[Thor665]

PV scum likely knows there's no doctor. So he claims scum have one. Then, he can put a buddy in the town section while town try to find the doctor that doesn't exist.

But that would require Suzunne to be scum or for scum to have no killed, yeah?

Also, wasn't your case on Pere that he was scum hunting to out the Doc?
What's your case on him with no town Doc at all?

[Thor665]

@Pere - you're describing Suzune's role as simply a lightning rod, yeah?

I'm the town lightning rod and post restriction enabler.

She can give out 2 of them, but I've seen no indication that she has.

Thanks I'd forgotten that part.

@Suzune - could you explain the post restriction part of your role?

[Thor665]

A Doc claim would have me wanting to lynch PV so you should also explain why that makes him town in your mind.

The lack of a doctor claim suggests that he made up the results, no? Perhaps he (PV) is the doctor?

This doesn't make sense to me.
Clarify?

@Suzune - could you explain the post restriction part of your role?

Yes I have a two shot post restriction. That I actually thought was a day ability until I tried to use. However, for the love of all things sane, I cannot see the value of it. All it says is I am issue any reasonable restriction. I have never seen anyone use this ability before ever, and I cannot think of what is the ideal way to use it. What's the point? I hoped if I sat on it for a long time it would come to me, but alas, I have no ideas. If someone would be open to suggest some ways to do it, I would be more then appreciative.

Maybe post restrict Klingon to be unable to post?

What was the power that was roleblocked from you on the night you lighning rodded?

[Thor665]

Meh. I'm not planning to look over a "reads wall" from a flipped scum.
You do whatever you wish with Klingon's reads though, I guess.

PV scum likely knows there's no doctor. So he claims scum have one. Then, he can put a buddy in the town section while town try to find the doctor that doesn't exist.

But that would require Suzunne to be scum or for scum to have no killed, yeah?

[Thor665]

@Thor... Do you not find it interesting Titus is placing so much weight to Kling's "reads" when we know she is scum and can just make random Smurf up?

If by "interesting" you mean "makes no sense" then - yes.

I'd rather sort out some thoughts between Riabi and Nero today than lynch Titus.
I basically want a Doc claim or a clear lack of Doc claim.
I'd also like to see some pretty Christmas tree VCA. I may do that myself, but probably not till Wednesday/Thursday so if anyone wants to earn some town points in my eyes they can do it and spare me the effort.

[Thor665]

@Titus - Looking at KC's iso - not really feeling a Simsun buddy there.

[Thor665]

LicketyQuickety[12] - Narninian, ChannelDelibird

,

Sinsun1

,

HostileIntent, Saint,

Titus,

KlingonCelt

, Riabi,

PeaceBringer,

davesaz,

LicketyQuickety, Senator

[Lynch!]
Riabi[4] -

Little Gumball, Suzune

, Nero Cain,

RIP

,

millar13

[1] -

Marcrell

Nero Cain[1] - PerigrineV
Not Voting(3):

Millar13

,

Thor

,

MaxwellPuckett

Made myself Green for my own purposes.
Made the theory cop clears blue.
Currently lean town on Dave.
Optimal lynch today really kind of says Titus, Riabi, or Sinsun on paranoia to me.
Looking at Riabi's wagon is pretty much a good way to explain to Sinsun why we should sort the Riabi/Nero question - as that really screams 'missing scum' if you buy into the cop and Pere.

[Thor665]

So you agree, vote Titus. I'm now just going to do what you did with CDB, annoy everyone with this until we vote scum off because I have made my points, I know they're valid and I know I have scum.

I agree Titus is in the running for today, yes. I never said otherwise unless we get a Doc claim.

Anyway, Riabi/Nero, going by that we can also see PereV voting Nero Day 1. So let's say Titus somehow magically flips town and PereV ends up being scum, that'd lead me to a townish read on Nero unless that was a bus as well all the way back on Day 1

You mean like how scum Marcell was voting scum Millar13?

We both town read Daves so it does come down to Nero/Riabi, but with 2 mislynches now available to us, we can sort that out easily.

Why not sort it now before scum shoot any of the more thoughtful town amongst us, as they surely will?

[Thor665]

Knowing enough of the roles in this game gives one power. The power to claim anything. So if you remember back when I thought that Sinsun might be a sensor, Titus said something about anyone claiming to be a sensor because there was no way to prove the claim. This got to me thinking about the Oracle claim. One does not need to actually be one to claim one. If PV knew there was a doctor, maybe because they were a doctor, it is easy enough to write yourself into your own prediction. Since no one is claiming it either means that no one actually has the doctor role, read as PV has the doctor role, or that actual doctor is one of the people who has not claimed.

Okay, so the working theory would be that he was scum and faked role awareness? The real question then becomes one of timing.

I'm

motivated

to find

scum

, but the

doctor

has been doing a shit job, and I think the "

tracker

" is also

scum

, and if he doesn't get lynched, he'll probably be

roleblocked

anyway. It would be nice if I could just

tree stump

myself like that one game, (but I waited too long). Oh well.

So here's his thing.

He knew about a Tracker, a Doc, a Motivator, a Roleblocker, and a Tree Stump
At the time he made this claim we had a claimed...Tracker, right?
Since then the Motivator, the Roleblocker, and the Tree Stump have all flipped confirmed scum.
The Tracker has flipped confirmed town but is a restricted Tracker and Pere argues that there is a non restricted scum Tracker.
We have also had zero Doc claim.

I, personally, see no reason for a scum Pere to basically just call out most of his team's PRs in a hidden way and then to also push a massclaim after the fact.
I am of the opinion that even if Pere is scum, he is also an Oracle.
His callout also seems to be almost entirely scum even if you think it was an intentional attempt to stab the town Tracker in the back somehow and maybe out a Doc...who doesn't appear to exist if he's town (an elaborate multi-scum bus attempt that they gave up on in favor of just shooting him instead)

Ockham's, yeah?

Basically here are my thoughts

I know that Gumball is cop "cleared" and PV says there is no GF but I dont trust either of them. I think Sin is wrong as Smurf on Titus and Gummy blindly sheeping Sin makes me edgy.

One thing that still really bothers me about Suzune is that she said she thought Thor was scum b/c he had a pr and she makes prs and didn't think their roles could coexsist but as soon as I asked about it she didn't respond (or atleast I don't remember it) and dropped it.

town

Nero
Titus
Sinsun
Thor
Dave
Rabi
Suzune
Gumball
pv

scum

So you think Sinsun is hard pushing town (Titus) and also can see that I just helped nail two scum back to back and even in a way that didn't even cost a lynch - but you have Sinsun as more likely town than me...

Shall I also presume you are claiming 'not Doc'?
Since you think Pere is scum, and if you're the town Doc, a claim of 'Doc' would definitely help get Pere lynched, y'know - so I'm taking it you're not a Doc, yes?

[Thor665]

Would it make you feel better to know he already has to me, and I've already spotted the player with the role and have reasonable belief in its backtrackability at this point insomuch as if it's a fake - then scum arranged it very much in a convoluted and pre-planned method?

Because if the answer is 'no' then what's the need to have the role discussed?

And if the answer is 'yes' then where are your reads at the new moment?

[Thor665]

Does the amount of information that goes on behind the scenes in this game drive anyone else crazy?

Not really - after three scum 'lynches' in a row I'm actually feeling pretty good about it.

While it is true Thor that he revealed the roles early. On his initial reveal of them they were not all listed as scum just that they existed it was not until later that they became scum.

I would suggest that is not actually true thanks to his color coding. You disagree about that?

I apologize I just feel so skeptical about this oracle thing. I feel like it breaks the idea of the game if it is just revealed I mean, why bother playing if we can just go down the list and lynch everyone on it. I guess I just feel put out that it would be so easy and I want there to be a trick somewhere. Some way to prove the town is being played because I just have a bad feeling about it.

I think if Pere is vanilla that the mod didn't really think through potential implications of the role properly.
That said, I've assuredly been in games before and "broke" them - it is not a sign or poor play on town's part when that happens, nor do I see a need to outguess reality beyond what is in front of me. When we get to lylo/mylo or a Doc claim I will be happy to embrace some paranoia with you - but as currently stands I'm not really seeing the point. Your issues with balance are a matter to discuss with the mod post game, not during the game other than to present incredulity and then move on with assessing what we can assess.

[Thor665]

Would it make you feel better to know he already has to me, and I've already spotted the player with the role and have reasonable belief in its backtrackability at this point insomuch as if it's a fake - then scum arranged it very much in a convoluted and pre-planned method?

Because if the answer is 'no' then what's the need to have the role discussed?

And if the answer is 'yes' then where are your reads at the new moment?

@Titus

[Thor665]

Would it make you feel better to know he already has to me, and I've already spotted the player with the role and have reasonable belief in its backtrackability at this point insomuch as if it's a fake - then scum arranged it very much in a convoluted and pre-planned method?

Because if the answer is 'no' then what's the need to have the role discussed?

And if the answer is 'yes' then where are your reads at the new moment?

@Titus

Thor, just because you've spotted something, doesn't mean scum have. There's a faulty premise there.

No it isn't - what I'm asking is how that reacts with your apparent demand to have Pere claim the role. If we establish that he has and it has been "confirmed" what does that accomplish for your read of Pere?

[Thor665]

Riabi has been prodded.

Can we get a prod on the mod also

[Thor665]

There haven't been any votes from my recollection, I'll do a vote count tonight though.

Mostly I'm curious about the player who hasn't posted in almost two weeks.

[Thor665]

Very Little. It just eliminates fake claiming. He could be scum real claiming. Yet, if we are going the setup spec route, eliminating possibilities for his play is best.

So...then there's no real need for you to ask then.
Okay.

@Sinsun - I don't really buy into Riabi/Titus myself. So either learn to sell your case better, or be more relaxed that some people want to look things over and dig for info.

[Thor665]

So you think Sinsun is hard pushing town (Titus) and also can see that I just helped nail two scum back to back and even in a way that didn't even cost a lynch - but you have Sinsun as more likely town than me...

fair point. I'm just pretty wary of Gumball and her instantly sheeping him on Titus made me think he's town if she's scum. But does it really matter?

It matters because your reads feel off and your presence is nonexistent and consequently you feel scummy to me so I'm trying to understand you better/engage you rather then letting you lurk through another phase.

Why not? Riabi's vote is very often next to Titus', plus Zabing probably would have followed her scum team if she was newbie scum.

Why not would be - scum usually don't dogpile on 3 at a time unless the other major wagon is scum.
I was the other major wagon - so if you think scum did that, why would they to protect me? They wouldn't - so why do that at all then? What was so massively important to them to hard push a Boon lynch like that at that time? It seems unlikely.

[Thor665]

@Nero - we have three flipped scum. You literally never voted any of them. You did to a hammer intent/case on Ika at the 11th hour, but that was about it.

I am looking askance at you - feel free to explode with townishness now.

@Titus - ...okay?

As scum I sweat Vigs over BPs who have been run to L-1, but maybe that's just me. Sure, you might - now the question is did the two buddies who voted after you have that skill and inclination? I don;'t even understand what your skill set has to do with anything at that stage - why are you saying it does, and what point are you trying to prove/disprove to me?

[Thor665]

meh, I'm town this game. I have very little desire to lynch either of you so I'm I'm still not all that sure on what it matters who I think is more town. If push came to shove I'd lynch Sinsun over you though but again, very little desire to do so.

Since neither Sinsun nor myself has a credible wagon on them - no worries.

Do you think I'd avoid bussing my buddies and not scramble to bus them for the town cred?

Arguably you did exactly that with Ika.
Were you even posting when Hermit's wagon happened?
There was no wagon to bus Kling on.

I'd love to see more from you.
I feel like town Nero would have been discussing his thoughts on the claims, and the setup, and doing...y'know...anything at all.
Instead I have a drifting lump of a player.
I like to lynch lumps.

[Thor665]

If we're assuming scum have day chat, then we should assume that if one is capable, they all are. Second, I tend to be the face of any scum team I would be on pulling puppet strings. Third, I have taught Klingon a lot ( well I have shockingly never rolled group scum in a game she's in) so expect some wild maneuvers from her is not far off.

Do you have any example scum QTs to show you suggesting or advocating an action like that - or, better yet (and theoretically easier to show) a scum QT with you educating Klingon on anything of the sort?

I highlight that the VCA doesn't clear me for the same reason that I highlight that most everyone that has been labeled conftown is merely prob town and if we remove faulty logic, then we get the right answer.

I never claimed the VCA cleared you.
So we're on the same page there.

[Thor665]

So 'no' on the education thing? Okay.

@Thor, the vca also would clear Titus plus Riabli unless you thought the mass jumping scenario occurred.

I agree that it would suggest that.
Bit of a difference between me thinking that and me claiming it clears you, but if that's all you wanted me to believe and understand - mission accomplished.

[Thor665]

Would you support a Riabi lynch today?

[Thor665]

Do you mind helping me out here? Why is she obvscum? If you have oulined the case before, I'd be ok with a link to that.

You mean besides the fact she wanted to kill CDB the second he claimed without discussion?

Liar.

@Titus - also, *really* not getting into thinking that Sinsun is scum.

[Thor665]

I don't care whether Sinsun is playing "good" I care whether he is playing scummy or not.
Don't waste my time with alignment neutral debate unless you can show that, as town, Sinsun doesn't play like this.

Are you saying I need to do VCA to get you to want to lynch Riabi?
I fail to follow.

[Thor665]

So, Riabi is in 50% of your scumteams.

To repeat myself - would you support a Riabi lynch today, especially with the awareness that no one besides you appears to support the Pere/Sinsun lynch concept.

[Thor665]

So basically you're wanting me to use garbage meta? That's a wifom waste of time. If she did tunnel as town, she could emulate it as scum, particularly if PV artificially narrows the pool. Meta is Smurf.

I agree - your case is not one I will follow - a meta case without meta is also Smurf.

I am saying you might be capable of doing a decent VCA and if you do it, most everyone would believe it was town motivated. If I did it, it would be treated as garbage, even with the same results.

I'm lazy, and have already color coded three things.

[Thor665]

If you're playing percentages, you could argue LG is on all my scum teams.

Riabi has vote support - LG doesn't.

Is this just a "no" from you in a convoluted manner? You are allowed to say "no" it's a yes/no question, after all.

[Thor665]

So basically, what do I need to do to show they are scum? Die and flip town? I would rather not.

Yes, you flipping town would certainly go a long way towards me thinking you are town.
To show that they are scum - for starters, if you think that a meta case on Sinsun is not good...why do you expect me to think that a case of 'he's not scumhunting' remotely looks like a good case? If meta is stopped because he can play like his town self then 'not scumhunting' becomes what he does as town - derp. Also, even if you prove he's not scumhunting that doesn't make him scum though - it just makes him anti-town.
As for Pere - your case on him has changed repeatedly - he was the scum bussing a bit to oust a Doc, now he is scum who double bussed to get town cred. Yeah, your case there is not very impressive, and if you think it is then I don't think we're on the same page about what good scumhunting is.

My answer is clear. The only lynches I support are PV and Sinsun. No one has provided a decent argument for PV being town beyond his claim, which you seem reluctant to prove.

How am I reluctant to prove his claim? I have no power over that beyond maybe that thing about the other town PR - but you've already admitted that if he is scum he basically needs to be aware of the setup in any case, so what would that really prove even if he did explicitly state the role? You are very confusing to me.

Vote: Riabi

@Mod - also, maybe a Riabi replacment or a clarification that he avoided the third prod that he theoretically should have received would be kind of sexy.

[Thor665]

@Titus - unless you're claiming a PR. Are you claiming a PR?

I assure you my vote will end up on Pere (or you) if you are. I'm all ears.

[Thor665]

Me reminding everyone of what I have already claimed (at least I think I have), does nothing to further the point I am making about PV outing the PR first.

As far as I'm aware you've claimed nothing/VT.
If you have any role besides VT we are WAY past you being cute about it.
I will treat this as a VT claim until told otherwise by you - a claim other than VT on any later day phase than this one will be treated as a scum claim in this situation.

This is sort of the point I am at. I sometimes feel like we are going around and around. We need to figure out one of the main players today, I fear that lynching Raibi will not clear our problem.

You are still voting no one - is voting no one going to clear our problem?
If not, we're at 6 days till deadline - you should probably vote for whichever play you think the lynch of will clear our problem, yeah?

[Thor665]

@Mod - V/LA August 15-30

I expect to still make posts/read for a chunk of that time except for the 5 days in Tunisia when I probably will have no internet at all, but since there is a decent chance for lags in play it's safer to claim it all.

[Thor665]

@Dave - you have no vote in play. You are a thief of my joy now too Do you have some thoughts of where your vote is likely to go? We are down to less than a week at this stage.

[Thor665]

One it says "we have two mislynched", what townie thinks like this?

I think about our number of available mislynches v. suspect pool all the time - you don't?

To top it off, she says we're going to get one.

What do you think is being said there? I am not following you.

[Thor665]

She's stating we are going to mislynch. Townies don't sound happy about mislynching.

She's arguing we're going to mislynched here all the while voting it and making no plausible alternative or scumhunting.

I am not reading those thoughts the same way you are.
I see it as 'let's get it done, no need to be scared if we're wrong because we have mislynches available - but I think we're right and you seem to, so why lollygag?"
At least that's how I'm parsing it.

[Thor665]

@Titus - way less than yours though...so...?

@Nero - how does Suzune's claim, backed by Pere and with a cop in play not confirm her? You would need both Suzune and Pere to be scum in that instance and also have a way to gawk with cop results...on a lightning rod. So...pretty much she would need to be a GF and scum would have to have someone who can assign as a lightning rod, and they would have had to role block the Tracker.

What is your theory for how she isn't cleared? Is the above it?

[Thor665]

We have three days.

Should I just not bother the mod with finding a replacement who will likely be lynched and hammer?

Dunno, do you think the slot is scum or no?

[Thor665]

@Nero - how does Suzune's claim, backed by Pere and with a cop in play not confirm her? You would need both Suzune and Pere to be scum in that instance and also have a way to gawk with cop results...on a lightning rod. So...pretty much she would need to be a GF and scum would have to have someone who can assign as a lightning rod, and they would have had to role block the Tracker.

In my defense I had forgotten about the cop inno on her but that aside, she was a claimed lightning rod that had used her power so PV (as scum) would have to be pretty horrible to not know this. Why do you think PV, as scum, would not be able to know she was a rod?

but I guess part of it is just being paranoid that all of Suzune, Sin, Titus, and Gumball are keeping me at arms length and keeping me around as a potential mislynch.

So no, it makes sense to have a FEW good PRs when the bad ones outnumber the good.

town has two full investigative roles, a vig and a gladiator, 2 limited investigation roles, an op roleblocker (light rod) and 4 WIFOMish town roles.

vs.

a useless treestump, a roleblocker, and a motivator and (according to PV) a tracker and a doctor.

Do you think this is balanced? *shrugz* IDK, just looks like alot of town power to me.

I fail to follow your Suzune discussion...you are agreeing with me that she is both a lightning rod and that if she is scum then scum would need a tool to mess with the cop that doesn't involve targeting? That doesn't work though. So she herself has to be a GF and they have to have a create-a-rod power for her to. Be scum, yeah? Could you tell me your current theory on her alignment?

Gladiator is a pure anti-town role.

[Thor665]

Someone just hammer this.

+1

[Thor665]

Why does anyone keep talking to ailing? Stop that please.

[Thor665]

Ailing = Kling.

[Thor665]

I am mostly appalled by the Mafia kill choice.

Seriously?

[Thor665]

I almost want to clear Titus on the basis that she shouldn't be this bad.

[Thor665]

I want the claims to go in a;

Nero
Titus
Dave order.
Scum midst to least, top to bottom.


I also want to do some VCA, but will not manage that till after my VLA ends. If someone else could do it I would not complain.

Also, Titus - is Pere still scum?

[Thor665]

@titus - claim again, since you have already claimed. Thanks!

[Thor665]

@Titus - if it was a reading issue a lot of people missed it or forgot it, so it bore repeating. I could not cntrl+F you as I am on an iPad and am limited due to travel. Do not act like he request was a big deal, nor a time waste,we both know it was not.

I am, currently, of the mind that the last scum is in you and Nero, what are your thoughts? You did not answer me about your current Pere read in a clear fashion. How many scum do you think are left and who do you think they are? I might buy one amongst the clears, and would listen to your theories about that, but you need to communicate if you want much support. You are being oddly fights and standoffish for a town player who is winning the game currently.

[Thor665]

Of important note in that quote - Narn put himself in one group, and me in a different one, and other people in the same group as him, including Suzune whom we know he investigated due to the Rod effect.

[Thor665]

And since I am bleeding obv. Town unless I am a bus happy Smurfhead - we are looking at scum in Pere (who would also be a Smurfhead) Nero, Titus and/or a GF.

Now is a good time for Nero and Titus to sell me on them being town. I am not really sold on either. Currently my best town read on Titus is she keeps shooting her defenders, which is dumb scum play, but maybe it is a gambit...eh, but I would like to think she wouldn't gambit that dumb. I don't even have that much of a town case on Nero (which...seriously Nero, the hell? Even as scum you should be managing better than what I have on Titus, have you no pride?)

I still want to do some VCA.

Currently I think I slightly lean for a Nero lynch, but that is a slight as heck preference.
I have not read dead scum Riabi-slot for relations yet.
Do not buy Titus as GF either without a very well put together case of sexy.
Your move Nero and Titus.

[Thor665]

@Thor, I do think Pere is scum. This isn't about attacking my defenders. It's about following the evidence. Suzune was starting to actually look at that and she died.

I think Pere and Suinsun are the last scum. But if we are supposing a mod broken game, it's Nero.

Frankly if I was on the scumteam and PereV is telling the truth, I would've pissed and resign already. There's zero way of them winning and its going through motions.

Can you explain what he hell he two of the are doin in the concept of "trying to win as scum"?

I can't.

Also, looking at Kling I quoted some lines he shared with Sinsun that do not look likely forscum scum - can you discuss that beyond the simple "he learned from me" which, Gus far, appears to be shorthand for "I taught him to play. Scum badly".

[Thor665]

If they are both scum then why bus back to back to back when they were at lylo and you had multiple votes on you that were not scum?

[Thor665]

Also, why make that hidden post and list off every single scum PR besides his, and then toss in a Tracker also? Like, what was Pere's reason for doing that. It literally makes no sense.

[Thor665]

Vote Count 6.03- Up to post 3922

Titus[5]: PergrineV, LittleGumball, Suzune, Psyche, St Augustine the Hermit

[L-2]

PeregrineV[4]: NeroCain, Riabi,Titus, davesez

[L-3]

St Augustine the Hermit[1]: Thor665
Sinsun1[1]: KlingonCelt

Not Voting[1]: Sinsun1

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Day ends Sunday, August 9th, at 9 AM USA Mountain Time or when a lynch occurs

[/area]

Like here. Three scum are not voting you at lylo in your theory.

[Thor665]

My theory does not have you as assured town, nor has two scum still alive at this stage, so...no, there is no issue there.

[Thor665]

Titus has apparently given up on trying to look town as she is singing the same song as yesterday and ignoring two flips which apparently do not affect her case at all.

Maybe Nero will impress me with his next post by claiming and then scum hunting.

[Thor665]

Titus has apparently given up on trying to look town as she is singing the same song as yesterday and ignoring two flips which apparently do not affect her case at all.

Maybe Nero will impress me with his next post by claiming and then scum hunting.

I didn't realize looking town meant agreeing with you. :/ If I take your premise that PV is town, then Nero has to be scum at this point. There's no hunting from my PoV or Nero's.

I just don't.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me if there seems to be logic in what you are selling.
Your case STRONGLY makes multiple logic leaps. What the Smurf, over?

[Thor665]

@nero - top two scumspect said - I would say "now" but you're so far past that stage that it would be comical to bother.

[Thor665]

Titus has apparently given up on trying to look town as she is singing the same song as yesterday and ignoring two flips which apparently do not affect her case at all.

Maybe Nero will impress me with his next post by claiming and then scum hunting.

I didn't realize looking town meant agreeing with you. :/ If I take your premise that PV is town, then Nero has to be scum at this point. There's no hunting from my PoV or Nero's.

I just don't.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me if there seems to be logic in what you are selling.
Your case STRONGLY makes multiple logic leaps. What the Smurf, over?

I mean, yesterday multiple people wanted to lynch you first and others did not want to lynch Riabi, including you, I am not calling any of you scum for that.

Stop straw manning and playing the fool. Seriously.

[Thor665]

I am not strawmanning. You are just by stating there's logical holes. The number of scum is solely dependent on PereV's word. We throw that out and PerV being scum is easy and makes sense.

Well, that then brings you back to "explain what the hell he was doing choosing to bus three scum buddies for no reason" to which your only answer has been "Sinsun is also scum, cop clears are wrong, and the 'plan' was to garner two mislynches after pushing three scum deaths instead of doing a plan that involved one mislynch...with multiple chances at it."

So you would think you would grok why my credulity is strained and you would THINK you would bother trying to explain the "plan" a bit better when I keep asking you about it.

Why aren't you?

I am clearly TRYING to listen and understand...do you grok how town play the game?

[Thor665]

I am not strawmanning. You are just by stating there's logical holes. The number of scum is solely dependent on PereV's word. We throw that out and PerV being scum is easy and makes sense.

Well, that then brings you back to "explain what the hell he was doing choosing to bus three scum buddies for no reason" to which your only answer has been "Sinsun is also scum, cop clears are wrong, and the 'plan' was to garner two mislynches after pushing three scum deaths instead of doing a plan that involved one mislynch...with multiple chances at it."

So you would think you would grok why my credulity is strained and you would THINK you would bother trying to explain the "plan" a bit better when I keep asking you about it.

Why aren't you?

I am clearly TRYING to listen and understand...do you grok how town play the game?

If you were, you would have realized Suzune got it and that's why she died. Your total obliviousness is why you are living.

Bussing a few buddies is how PerV proves himself. *shrug*

If Nero flips town, we lose anyway because you aren't willing to think.

Suzune steeped my play - if she 'got it' then I was at least very close.

Bussing store buddies when he had no need to? And, functionally, bussing four or lying about the town tracker - I am not sure which you believe at this stage.

What proof of my lack of thinking do you have? I see three dead scum, that certainly at least looks like I'm at least idiot saga ting into good calls - why so whiny about it?

[Thor665]

He didn't need to sell out the scum team for that though.
So why did he?

[Thor665]

That is not true at all - he immediately voted him after he claimed role locker. I have quoted that to you before.
What does that do to your theory?

My prediction is it changes nothing..as usual.

[Thor665]

How did he avoid talking about Hermit?

[Thor665]

I mean, he assuredly voted him and called him scum - what other conversation was there that he ducked out on?

[Thor665]

@Titus - what relation is there between Hermit bussing Klingon by word, and Pere bussing at least three members of his team by claim?

[Thor665]

town was stacked man

Town was probably more powerful than the Mafia, but I'm not sure I see it as a 'stacked' level of better.
There was a lot of negative utility town power, and only one negative utility scum power (who, oddly, decided to go negative utility for the scum for some reason)
I also think that a less well played Oracle would have very much shifted the dynamics of the setup - that said, Oracle is a role built to be abused by any intelligent player that gets it. The only saving grace for scum was that the rather powerful Hider was not played optimally.
But I do agree that the setup was townsided.

[Thor665]

gosh titus i can't believe you are so paranoid

town was stacked man

These two together.

Yeah, but there's paranoid and then there's PARANOID.
You slipped into the second half - you should have realized you were hard tunneling when your evidence kept changing but your conclusion of Pere scum never shifted. I didn't have you sold as scum to me, but your answers were getting nuttier and nuttier and it was very confusing to me.

[Thor665]

The Senator lynch was a pretty bad lynch though.

[Thor665]

Wow, that day went fast. Glad I found scum-Nero early on. Not so glad it took 6 more days to get him lynched.

Better hope no one reads the neighborhood if you're claiming that

[Thor665]

I do think the mafia were hurt more by their flakeouts and replacements then by the setup.

[Thor665]

I had to Treestrump because I was the only one in the Scum thread. Nero raged off briefly and I had no idea if he'd be back or not. A replace-in that late in the game would be absolutely lost on his or her own. I was going to be lynched, no question. Treestumping was the only way I could stay in Scumchat.

I really disagree with this position - you had the only negative utility scum role, and chose to use it in the most pro-town manner possible. I respect that you think your advice would help your scumbuddies, but regardless, the correct play was to obligate town to have to lynch you rather than allowing town to see your flip and then having a lynch without scum getting a kill attempt. I really believe that you were probably the most pro-scum player on your team except for that single value call, which was one of the worst things the scum team coul have had happen. There's a reason I kept advocating for a stumping - and it wasn't because it would harm town.

The question that was failed to be answered though, in all arguments. Is that PereV outted his role a day or two before he outted the town roles. He outted only which roles were mafia and mafia had a chance to kill him then and there after Hermit's lynch. He outted it that day and did not out all the town roles. That mistake cost mafia their chance at fake claiming. So why kill a conditional tracker that night whom forgot to even track the night before and not the Oracle who outted every mafia role in the day? Was it completely missed by the entire scum team?

This is a grossly unfair call and contains a lot of 20/20 awareness.

An Oracle is an extremely strong town role - and I would not be shocked at all if the scum thought he was a one shot, and if he was a one shot Oracle than ABSOLUTELY the Tracker kill was the best play, bar none. In fact, at that point, an Oracle kill would have been bad play for the scum. The only way the Oracle kill was the right call at that point was if they had known there was additional info Pere had and was holding onto. They didn't, they gambled, they chose wrong. But it wasn't inherently bad play, it was simply a bad decision.

[Thor665]

Agreed, the removal of y/n language really boosted the power of that role.