Open 790 | Purgatory | Game Over!

[Dannflor]

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

okay but like do we get an unlimited supply of food in purgatory? that sounds like a pretty good deal

[Dannflor]

HEAL: Dannflor
so he can make judgment day decisions and carry us.
HURT: Dannflor
for not teaching me how the setup works last time he modded it so now I think I can do that

I'm getting mixed signals here

hi everyone : )

this seems like an innocent non-demonic person

[Dannflor]

brb changing my name to Floortile

[Dannflor]

she's an angel!

[Dannflor]

He was naughty

Why haven't you voted?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Cthylla

[Dannflor]

i opened it and now feel pocketed

[Dannflor]

I don't want to send Isis anywhere I want her to stay in purgatory so she can share more cat pictures

[Dannflor]

Wait someone gets that reference right

I'm not the only player from the last run of the setup, right?

Um
Dannflor you read unbolded gameplay?

yeah I read the entirety of the games I mod

[Dannflor]

it's a good theory in the sense that it is a towny theory

[Dannflor]

do you expect Green Crayons to know what Isis is usually like? is agreeing with Hayasaka's theory scummy? Voting Isis purely for font reasons seems ever so mildly towny to me too even if I disagree and think bullying Isis should be illegal

I'm unsure which part of his entrance exactly you find scummy

[Dannflor]

gah

I can't focus on mafia with these cats

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Dannflor]

You see it as scummy and not mildly towny now?

I am honestly not sure what I see it as now but I wanted to see what would happen if I voted there

[Dannflor]

Isis did you like word's entrance or did you just find it objectively better than Walter's

because I find that I objectively dislike word's entrance

[Dannflor]

Green Crayons has played with Isis before !
the "happy with my vote" bit i didn't like
don't know why but maybe cuz it feels like he's putting unreasonable confidence in something which doesn't warrant it?

oh and I was going to respond to this but forgot

Is unreasonable confidence for something that doesn't warrant it scummy?

I think Green Crayons had an awkward/uncharismatic entrance (sorry green crayons I'm sure you are very charismatic outside of this particular instance) which might make for bad vibes but I think I'm not seeing the part that is scummy

[Dannflor]

I don't dislike his entrance on isolation but I dislike its placement on page 6 of the game

[Dannflor]

Yes, for sure, once I am elimed I tend to stray to other games.
I do like to read but engagement for me is helped by having an active role and being forced to participate.

Actually so far in terms of reads I tr you and norwee.
So VOTE: unvote
But other reads will have to wait on a reread when I wake up.
Good night.

my gut wanted to town read this post because it seemed pure and is a nice reaction to being asked if they would be a good heaven candidate

but my head says that there was a reason walter started all the heaven talk in the first place?

[Dannflor]

Oh I was talking about word's entrance in #172

my agenda is strictly bully free

[Dannflor]

i dont have anything more to say about this game right now because I am tired and just wrote a paper that sapped the life out of me but I wanted to make a color text post because I thought it would be fun and cute

good night

[Dannflor]

I don't dislike his entrance on isolation but I dislike its placement on page 6 of the game

Can you explain this?

like on its own the post is mostly NAI

I didn't like it because it came after certain slots had already developed reads and there was content to comment on

word opts to ignore most of this in favor of a milque-toast mechanics entrance

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Word

[Dannflor]

@mod V/LA until Saturday afternoon

I would kindly request that neither Isis nor Hayasaka gets damned while I'm absent

[Dannflor]

hello?

I'm back and will catch up over this evening/tonight

[Dannflor]

I'm very surprised to see heaven already

[Dannflor]

VOTE: clidd

I would heaven clidd or Dannflor today.

I'm still reading, but why me here?

[Dannflor]

Actually, I don't really understand why I'm seemingly high on everyone's town list

[Dannflor]

clidd
Hayasaka
Cthylla
Isis
Dannflor
Walter
Norwee
Green Crayons
word321

clidd
Dannflor
Hayasaka
NorwegianboyEE
Walter
Isis
Green Crayons

I'm skimming so I may have missed some of the reasoning why, but I'm unsure how I got above Hayasaka here while having made 0 posts in between.

[Dannflor]

Because you're not trying to look towny and get yourself heavened. It doesn't look like you have an agenda.

I think Isis might be town actually because she's having too much fun this game.

I just haven't been here! Like I understand that argument day 1 but I was literally without service for two nights. It's not towny it just means I went camping

[Dannflor]

Isis/Hayasaka are still my top two town reads after finishing reading D1

I lean towards heavening Isis. I am closer to 100% confidence on Hayasaka than I am on Isis so heavening Isis is slightly better fmpov. I'm also more suspicious of slots that are like "I don't really wanna go to heaven but I guess I will ladada" than Isis who is just like "yeah I wanna go to heaven."

clidd seems vaguely towny maybe? I need to read more of D2 but I think it's better for judgement day if we're sending townies we think want to go and solve from heaven.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: clidd

I would heaven clidd or Dannflor today.

Cool, so either clidd of Dann is scum and I don't think it's possible to work out the WIFOM of it until a flip.

UNVOTE: Dann
VOTE: Hayasaka

I assume this is a scum read on Cthulu? You were town reading me before enough to be voting for me, does your scum read saying this about me completely diminish the reasons you had for town reading me?

[Dannflor]

or to put that another way, GC, is your town read on me literally weakened by that or is this paranoia-esque-thinking talking

[Dannflor]

Isis, tell me your read on Norwee

[Dannflor]

As for Isis, I think walls upon walls is a good scum tactic but recognize that posting style isn't a sure-fire scum tell.

btw yes walls can be a good scum tactic in that a lot of people like to look at walls and lazily assign them as town because *effort* = town or something

but I think timing and motivation count a lot here

specifically Isis coming back in after she had already been posting a lot and the thread had died down early D1 to do a catch up post on things she hadn't responded to leans towny timing and motivation to me. It wasn't an organized reads list or like "hey everyone here is everything I've learned now, I am town and have good make sense progression," it just seemed to be Isis having more thoughts about the game and wanting to get them out there

[Dannflor]

Norwee, do you have a read on Cthulu

[Dannflor]

If it makes you feel better you are in the middle of my list right now. I changed my mind after reviewing my read.

It makes me less paranoid about you being scum yes actually

[Dannflor]

need to see more from Dannflor before voting.

Was there anything in particular you wanted to see from my slot? Specific reads or anything

[Dannflor]

I must go play DnD but I will catch up more and play more in a few hours

[Dannflor]

Norwee, do you have a read on Cthulu

Mixed, i like the way they are detailing their mindset. But some of their reads i don't really understand, like saying it's scummy that i sniped his alt for example. Or his Isis read.
Also that hammer on Word seemed a bit iffy.
Tbh i've been considering if it's best to heaven GC, and if they're town we hell Hectic tommorow.

Do you think it's most likely they are T/S

[Dannflor]

I'm town

I have this small fear there is a team like Isis/Norwee/Walter

and Cythylla vs. GC is actually town versus town

Like a lot of the posts or fallacies they are making that people are calling scummy or problematic aren't necessarily scummy, they're just flawed arguments

and I feel like the game is slightly pushing a narrative of one of those two or both being scum? but that could be a misread

[Dannflor]

should I be more paranoid about Hayasaka than I am? I feel very unparanoid about that slot but I can't point to a specific thing to be like "that's why I'm so confident"

[Dannflor]

the surface level slight doesn't have legs. I think you're scum. I think scum would WIFOM a teammate into their heaven pool. Because I can't figure out who that'd be between clidd and Dann, the safe play is to not have either of them go to heaven. There are other good heaven candidates.

I don't necessarily think heavening scum at this point is the end of the world

I think the last run of this setup started with a D1 town hell and a D2 scum heaven and town ended up winning

But it needs to be a slot that probably isn't getting helled otherwise

This is why I favor Isis but maybe more people scum read her than I realize?

[Dannflor]

should I be more paranoid about Hayasaka than I am? I feel very unparanoid about that slot but I can't point to a specific thing to be like "that's why I'm so confident"

Are you up to date? Was you DND game super short? Did you nat20?

it's starting slightly late and I have a mafia addiction

[Dannflor]

the surface level slight doesn't have legs. I think you're scum. I think scum would WIFOM a teammate into their heaven pool. Because I can't figure out who that'd be between clidd and Dann, the safe play is to not have either of them go to heaven. There are other good heaven candidates.

I don't necessarily think heavening scum at this point is the end of the world

I think the last run of this setup started with a D1 town hell and a D2 scum heaven and town ended up winning

But it needs to be a slot that probably isn't getting helled otherwise

This is why I favor Isis but maybe more people scum read her than I realize?

That's fair.

What do you think about Haya or Norwegian?

Haya, I think is town but I am not sure I want to heaven her as much because I'm *so* confident. But my reasons aren't exactly airtight so I'll revisit that later today. Norwegian, I don't have much of a read on that bothers me. I suppose I liked Isis' post about him

[Dannflor]

Also, are you happy with being heavened?

I think it's +EV if I am not heavened.

I believe my skillset lies in being obv-town and avoiding getting mis-elimed

My individual read accuracy isn't amazing and I think I produce the best results when I have people to bounce off of.

I dunno I don't think it would be the worst thing but I'd rather heaven other people first and I think I'm more useful here?

[Dannflor]

I also feel that scum may want to push clidd out thread if he is town.

Can you expand on this thought? Or why you feel this way about Clidd?

[Dannflor]

Isis, Dannflor are you 2 town? We can play like the dance game again and be an unstoppable force. That was a fun game.

lol I don't know if I'm just attaching to really weird things this game but I want to call this a very town post/reaction

[Dannflor]

I need to read more of D2 to be completely caught up but I'm pretty set on voting Isis at the moment

[Dannflor]

Dannflor when you get back to the thread here is a little wall for you about the strategy for this day phase and how some of the incentives it produces dovetail with your playstyle

Spoiler:

...I was reading and this post exactly coincided with me questioning my town read on you

[Dannflor]

Isis, who are your top one or two picks for heaven that aren't yourself?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Isis

[Dannflor]

I keep thinking Isis might be scum but I think I am never going to make up my mind completely so I should just trust that my original gut on her was correct and that if I'm wrong heavening her is probably better than leaving her to win the game by sending me cat pictures

[Dannflor]

I also think GC is town so

[Dannflor]

I think he's extremely serious this game

[Dannflor]

My other thing on why I am unsure if I can vote Isis is it's basically what everyone's secondary option is.

yeah this is what keeps giving me the heebie jeebies

I also don't think it's the end of the world if we heaven Isis!scum

but maybe she is not the town read I need to check right now

[Dannflor]

Why not Hayasaka?

[Dannflor]

are you particularly against or for your own slot going to heaven this phase, Hayasaka?

[Dannflor]

yourself or Hayasaka?

[Dannflor]

I'm mostly just confused as to why I'm more town than Hayasaka to Cthulu

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Hayasaka

[Dannflor]

I'm just surprised you've seen more from me that seems town than from her. I've posted a lot a lot less than her.

[Dannflor]

Isis you wouldn’t try to pocket me as scum would you

That would be rather bulli

[Dannflor]

I town read too many people.

it's especially scary when you know there's a disproportionate amount of scum to town

[Dannflor]

I'm not an immediate buyer that you actually think you are so damn good at mafia that heavening one of your (infallible) townreads and leaving yourself in the game so you can carry is better EV than heavening yourself if you know you have town PM

I'm confused

my reasoning for not wanting to go to heaven is exactly that i think my reads are generally bad and I shouldn't be in charge of judgement day

[Dannflor]

like my ability to carry is decidedly not one of my strong suits in mafia and I am well aware of that

[Dannflor]

You're doing a lot of townreading people without reasoning

I have exactly three town reads right now

I don't think clidd is necessary for me to expand on

Hayasaka oozes so much sincereness in every post that I don't think I'm ever going to not town read her. Like I could make up some more legitimate sounding reason to town read her slot but that doesn't change the truth of the matter that every time I scroll through her ISO I see a post that either has emotion that strikes me as town or a thought process that consistently strikes me as town. As far as the latter little things like pushing me or Walter or heaven seem very out of left field even if she were partnered with Walter for example

You, I town read for similar reasons to Hayasaka but it's less strong in that you've made no push or stated no read where I'm like "well why would Isis do that as scum." However, I do feel as though you haven't been playing to get town read necessarily. You are open about wanting to go to heaven. The method with which you've posted catchups hasn't been motivated by getting town read as I've perceived it but by being a townie with a mafia addiction who needs to comment on everything

I was town reading GC very strongly for a brief moment and I'm trying to remember what sparked that but I do not and I cannot find it right now

[Dannflor]

That doesn't make any sense, there would be people to sheep in the game thread.

like
there is putting yourself into roles that are optimal for you
and then there is risking heavening scum, which is akin to helling town
I think town!you knows that the latter is an overbearing consideration but scum!you likes having a colorable argument that lets you lamist around a bit

putting infallible in quotes wasn't meant to suggest your own strength you're extolling is read accuracy, it's to point out that all of it is so uncertain it's just really bad

yeah

I think you are right and I am wrong

I was putting too much weight on judgement day needing to have super solver pants mc solver there because I compare the heaven thread to the dead thread in Vengeful Ghosts and the judgements that happened in that thread required triple digit pages

but I don't think anyone here was in that game so that means nothing to anyone

anyway I was wrong

[Dannflor]

maybe I'm just crankyjealous cause everyone is talking about their new puberty xmen power at show and tell and I am just like "actually I kind of think the longer I survive in mafia games the more I throw them, oh- oh."

i was just thinking like oh if I'm with everyone else I can get talked out of my bad reads but if I'm in heaven I can conf bias to hell and back (no pun intended)

[Dannflor]

I just thought of something, what if Cthylla and GC is scum theatre.
After all, this game mode is all about anti-associations between scum.

this post has stuck in my brain for a long time but I decided it's probably not SvS

at least, I don't see it making sense unless a consensus town read like Hayasaka or clidd is scum, which I find unlikely

[Dannflor]

if it's T-T that means the team is exactly walter and norwegian and one of my three town reads and that hurts my feelings and my brain

[Dannflor]

I think shit like Dann wanting to stay behind is bad because I don't really see him being some glue that is holding us together in the thread. And I think the logic of someone having 5% better reads then average and should stay is actually kinda bad, since you can use your reads in heaven anyway.

Content generation on an average player is far more useful to the town then an above average player. Not to mention he can act as glue pretty well. A player who can generate the content needed to make the game a lot more solvable or hold the group together are the most valuable asset to win a game. Clidd does both of those things and just getting rid of him to get a 98% town read over a 93% town read is just a horrid mistake to me.

my logic for wanting to stay was not because I think I have better reads than average

I also now see why my logic is bad and I'm less attached to staying here

[Dannflor]

at least, I don't see it making sense unless a consensus town read like Hayasaka or clidd is scum, which I find unlikely

Why would it make sense only if that scenario?

because I think a great risk of their spat is that one gets heavened and the other gets helled

Especially if people keep pushing that they are SvT, and scum need to get at least two in heaven or win judgement day. If their third member is like walter it doesn't really make sense. Unless they think they're gonna both get town read for the 1v1

[Dannflor]

actually thinking about it, they might hope one of them getting heavened and flipping scum leads to the other one getting heavened but ehhhh

I'm not sold this is faked

[Dannflor]

I think pre-flip trolls are often more frustrating than they are useful, so thank you for that

[Dannflor]

I think I'm slowly coming around to a town read on both sides of the Cthulu/GC conflict, which I fear means Isis has to be scum

[Dannflor]

i think she's been towny but there's one thing that she's been doing that could mean she's demonic
gonna keep that reason to myself for now and reveal it later ; )

Cyhtutjldulu did you ever reveal this?

[Dannflor]

yikes

[Dannflor]

that bothers me less than the timing of Isis dropping me in her reads does, although there could be some element of OMGUS here

I also think her reasons for scum reading me are... somewhat forced and contradictory to earlier comments. Like early in the game she advocated for stronger players going to heaven because they needed to solve from there. And based off that, I basically decided well I don't think I'm a very strong player so I probably should not be going. and then she accuses me of thinking so highly of myself that I want to stay. Which has a second issue of I think she knows me well enough to know that I have very low-confidence in my own ability.

I also don't really understand why she didn't ask me for further explanation on some of my town reads rather than just call me out on "not explaining them," particularly when she's witnessed me be a player who throws out a lot of reads in a somewhat erratic fashion because my mind jumps all over the place

I dunno I just can't shake the feeling that I am being pushed as scummier because I have to be and the pool of people that could possibly be mis-elimed is shrinking

[Dannflor]

I don't know how to read Norweegian

[Dannflor]

why do you assume I'm being manipulative/malicious over misunderstanding

Norwee said stronger players staying behind is good

You said no, that's wrong

as far as I understand

[Dannflor]

It's not a surefire indicator of your alignment but I am running out of people who can be scum too.

What are your GC/Cthulu thoughts?

[Dannflor]

This isn't hard.

I mean you literally said norwegian's "good town strategy" of not wanting good town players to go to heaven was backwards? I interpreted that to mean that strong town players should go to heaven.

Instead you actually just meant that solving occurs both in thread and heaven and the strength of players shouldn't be a factor? sorry if I seem obtuse I think my brain is just stuck on this or something

[Dannflor]

And I assume it's malicious over misunderstanding because it seems like so much effort to reach a gotcha, when I have consistently presented my philosophy on heavening over and over this phase. It's not clear. I don't think you'd think my philosophy was different and would reread it more times to reconcile it with my other posts and dismiss this rather basic "I disagree with A && B =/= I disagree with A".
Narset's progression on the topic has been much fairer

You've been pushing clidd all phase I don't think that's inconsistent with thinking our stronger town players should go to heaven

[Dannflor]

What about GC's posts do you find as scummy? You can wait to hell phase to explain if you want but I'm curious to know a more detailed read on that slot

[Dannflor]

ok i understand now

[Dannflor]

It is hell phase, Narset confirmed her flip by not hammering when there was a real possibility of unvotes. There's no reason not to discuss like we are in hell phase.

I know but we don't know when the thread gets locked and there's something to be said for continuity/flow of discussion

[Dannflor]

I am still skeeved by you saying me not wanting to go to heaven is because I think so highly of myself

[Dannflor]

[2] Isis: NorwegianboyEE, WaltertheDunce10

I think the idea I was floating in my brain of Isis/Norwee/Walter might be wrong for a few reasons but one of them is that this would be really weird

[Dannflor]

I keep throwing Norwee/Walter together in all my solves and that feels lazy but I am having a hard time imagining that two out of GC/Isis/Cthylla are mafia

[Dannflor]

I think for scum it would be hard to fight a wagon on clidd or Hayasaka even if they wanted to?

[Dannflor]

I’m thinking the GC/Hectic 1v1 is the most likely TvS conflict here so i’d rather vote in here than just Walter. Walter could be scum with anyone imo, so if they maf i’m still unsure where to look.

on the other hand if we get it wrong today Hayasaka immediately has to make a judgement

which is not the worst thing probably but something to consider

[Dannflor]

Dannflor has paranoia over my slot which seems towny, but nothing else stands out to me yet.

Hey walter, has your read on my slot progressed since here?

[Dannflor]

^

like four people have me as "town, but not like super sold and could be wrong oh well" and it's creeping me out a bit more than Isis' read was

[Dannflor]

^ was supposed to go to Isis requesting Walter give a bit more detail

[Dannflor]

apocalypse D1 was disgusting

tbh I attribute that more to Ank than myself

[Dannflor]

I also want to have emo-dark-text

[Dannflor]

Didn't we agree angels were bad and demons get a bad rep

[Dannflor]

I'd rather be a misunderstood demon than a good-two-shoes angel

[Dannflor]

going to reread the word lynch, probably tonight

this took me a moment to parse

what are you hoping to glean from that phase?

[Dannflor]

I am adding a clarification to the setup rules in this post. Mafia aligned players do not gain access to Hell and Heaven PTs after being sent away, they remain in their Mafia PT. This is how the setup intends for the private threads to function.

Apologies for any confusion!

Oh, I think Morning Tweet is running this setup more correctly than I did

[Dannflor]

Why is Isis town for you?

[Dannflor]

clidd's scum game is better than I assumed it was based off people locking him as town with such ease. but regardless all recent examples I've found, namely here and here don't match up with his play here. Although the latter game I linked especially contains some of the same style of careful analysis that clidd has displayed here, it never reaches the same amount of volume or WIM that clidd has displayed for this game. Coupled with the fact that he has about +100 posts from the next most active poster in this game (a level of activity I've seen very few scum players able to replicate without resorting to shit posts) and the point Hectic put out here a while ago about clidd getting exhausted as scum seems to put this game outside of his scum range.

Spoiler: irrelevant tbh

Isis, Dannflor are you 2 town? We can play like the dance game again and be an unstoppable force. That was a fun game.

I don't know why you aren't worried about GC trolling in heaven. He's out of his mind in my opinion.

Green Crayons doesn't troll as town, clidd. He's a fairly serious player.

Any "trolling" you're detecting is scuminess, ya know, because he's a demon. You don't need to make excuses for him.

Hum.

clidd has a few of these types of posts where he pulls at something and posts to show he's thinking about it or had some reaction to it

I feel a little bit stupid to be saying this but for some reason I town read them quite a bit. It's not that they aren't fakeable, it's incredibly easy to fake, but it's also the type of posting that scum doesn't really think to make

it gives me a little window into clidd's town mind and shows me that he's genuinely pondering a lot of the (even inconsequential) parts of the game. he also doesn't make a big show of it he just sort of marks the posts with his brain and then leaves it. It feels transparent in a towny way but not transparent in a LAMIST way

anyway I had momentary doubts about clidd because everyone had locked town him and I wasn't exactly 100% sure why but now here's the town case on clidd no one asked for

[Dannflor]

What is WIM?

Want It More

desire to play the game

specifically to win

[Dannflor]

Hectic I have only ever witnessed be gimmicky and try to play through that gimmick

I don't know what to make of it that his gimmick seems secondary to trying to in this game

it's plus towniness?

[Dannflor]

clidd is town
walter's reads are uncomfortably lukewarm and surface level
I want to reread Hectic but I'm not bored of HS for the evening this rogue deck is so nutty

i am like uncomfortable with walter's so strong town read of you

norwegian's as well to an extent

but then I realize like that's probably the only reason I have to be uncomfortable with you, and that doesn't make sense when both those slots also have empty town leans on me

besides like you not being Lady 3, but I am not Lady 6 so that would also be hypocritical

essentially I am reaching to find reasons to paranoia-scum read you and maybe that should be a sign that I should just stop and go with my initial read which was that you are towny town

[Dannflor]

it's just that if you and clidd are both town I am at a loss as to what scum's game plan is?

but I went down this road in the dance too and that's how I ended up thinking G5 and L1 were scum so maybe it is just as simple as like GC/Norwee/Walter

[Dannflor]

scumsman does not mean anything to me

[Dannflor]

I am uncomfortable putting Norwee as scum as I have no reason to do so other than everyone else is town

[Dannflor]

I want this game to be hard too badly

[Dannflor]

Looking at walter's completed games doesn't really change my mind on his slot

he seems much more proactive than this as town. He seems like he's waiting for something and I don't really understand why he's not pushing anywhere given he's like the defacto choice to hell today. He's shaded Cthulua and says GC vs. Cthulu isn't SvT. He's also shaded norwee, but there's no attempt to actually pressure these slots or sort them. Which he seems to be capable as a town player even if he's new.

[Dannflor]

My "alignment" was "different" as L3 because of the weird jestery thing, I went over that during the game, I really think it is like a 140% town alignment, because of the weird erosion of survivor tells.
An element of that I didn't add on at the time is playing in a rigged faction because I still think FakeGod dance is disgustingly busted for town, unless town does grotesquely suboptimal leaving behaviors to throw, and since that's out of my control it creates a different kind of mindset/framework. So that made me even more carefree
so like i feel like you won't see me play like that again this year unless I roll doublevengeful or something
It's not your only game if I'm not as comfy as magical girls or AvP there's your metric those would be p similar to this setup, especially MG because I think my role felt very VT

You feel most like Magical Girls to me here. AvP I thought you were blindingly town almost to L3 level, but I was also scum and there is a sort of bias that comes with that.

to be clear I'm not looking for you to be L3. I know my own gameplay in that game was an anomaly I was just thinking out loud and realizing that my baseline for you is a little more uncertain

[Dannflor]

Looking at walter's completed games doesn't really change my mind on his slot

he seems much more proactive than this as town. He seems like he's waiting for something and I don't really understand why he's not pushing anywhere given he's like the defacto choice to hell today. He's shaded Cthulua and says GC vs. Cthulu isn't SvT. He's also shaded norwee, but there's no attempt to actually pressure these slots or sort them. Which he seems to be capable as a town player even if he's new.

maybe he's been instructed to leave as few associations as possible?

but then I think it would be wisest to just stop posting completely and eat the bullet if that's the scum strategy.

[Dannflor]

Okay but is going for the “deep wolves” the best idea right now

Do you think Walter is town?

[Dannflor]

You had Isis as super strong town enough to be heavenened last phase.

Can you talk about that read

[Dannflor]

Looking back on it, i also think Isis’s responses to me wanting to heaven them was weird. So i’m denouncing that read.
Don’t agree with their current Cht push either.

can you go into this? feels like an interesting thing to make you denounce a read of that strength completely

[Dannflor]

Looking at walter's completed games doesn't really change my mind on his slot

he seems much more proactive than this as town. He seems like he's waiting for something and I don't really understand why he's not pushing anywhere given he's like the defacto choice to hell today. He's shaded Cthulua and says GC vs. Cthulu isn't SvT. He's also shaded norwee, but there's no attempt to actually pressure these slots or sort them. Which he seems to be capable as a town player even if he's new.

not sure where you are coming from on that Dann.
I am saying it us a svt .
Please point to where I have shaded someone.
I was saying I had suspicions of Norwee.
What is this waiting for,
There went my tr and now I suspect the team
when you do send me to be cth Dann plus one.
pedit
Clidd, You are being manipulated or scum and I don't know what to tell you.

Okay, who do you most want to vote today?

[Dannflor]

Looking at walter's completed games doesn't really change my mind on his slot

he seems much more proactive than this as town. He seems like he's waiting for something and I don't really understand why he's not pushing anywhere given he's like the defacto choice to hell today. He's shaded Cthulua and says GC vs. Cthulu isn't SvT. He's also shaded norwee, but there's no attempt to actually pressure these slots or sort them. Which he seems to be capable as a town player even if he's new.

not sure where you are coming from on that Dann.
I am saying it us a svt .
Please point to where I have shaded someone.
I was saying I had suspicions of Norwee.
What is this waiting for,
There went my tr and now I suspect the team
when you do send me to be cth Dann plus one.
pedit
Clidd, You are being manipulated or scum and I don't know what to tell you.

Okay, who do you most want to vote today?

[Dannflor]

Norwee, there's one thing that doesn't completely make sense to me from your perspective

If Walter is low-hanging fruit and there is 3 scum in the block of [clidd/Isis/Dannflor/GC/Cthulu] then what exactly happened during the heaven phase. At various times there was moderate support for me, Isis, GC, or clidd to go to heaven, and yet Hayasaka ended up getting pushed there. What was scum doing from your pov? Because you and walter were both off wagon for Hayasaka

[Dannflor]

@ Dann
I would likely vote for Cth, Norwee.
Somewhere within those two with an outside/miniscule chance of GC.

Why aren't you voting one of these yet? This is why I said it seemed like you were waiting for something, I get that you have lean scum reads on a couple slots, but I don't get the sense that you have any conviction about which slot should go today.

Which is fair, because I don't really have that conviction either, but I'm not sure you're really doing anything to remedy that either?

[Dannflor]

Do you think Walter is town?

Smells like low-hanging fruit to me. I wanna vote in GC/Hectic and i’m TR’ing Hectic more than GC right now.

You had Isis as super strong town enough to be heavenened last phase.

Can you talk about that read

I stand by my read at the time. But i don’t see any teams possible where Walter is just sticking out like a sore thumb. Which has made me paranoid of most of my TR’s. There has to be at least 1/2 scum in Isis/Clidd/GC/Dann from my POV and i think GC is the most sus.

Let's have a chat, why you are acting like "omg, everyone is a suspect, there is a major plot going on"

I don’t buy that all of You/Dann/Isis/GC are town and correctly TR’ing each other while scum is in somewhere like Hectic/Walter. Even if say Walter is scum that makes 2 mafia in the aforementioned group. And you’re saying it’s unnatural for me to recognize this fact?

Norwee, what is your actual read on Walter? I don't buy the that the extent you're going to go to solve him is shelve him as LHF because you're concerned about wolves in "the town core." like obviously yes, from a town!you perspective there has to be scum within isis/clidd/gc/dann, but why is this what you're gunning for? And why does Walter seem to be simultaneously town and maybe-scum in your hypothetical worlds. If he's scum, why is he not the best elimination today so we can deal with the "deep wolves" later? If he's town, why is he town?

[Dannflor]

Clidd, if you don’t see that scum are in the towncore then i can only assume you are working for the scum in that group.

this is a bad post

[Dannflor]

I am not waiting any longer but lack of conviction could apply to anyone not voting currently.
Agreed on gc
VOTE: norwee

Why norwee over Cthlyua?

[Dannflor]

Dannflor if Norwee and Walter had three stacks of Loved today who would you vote

walter probably, it's both a safer elimination in the sense that I think it's likelier to flip red and also a slot that has less of a chance of showing me that they're town if I'm wrong

although I do think Norwee has made some very bad posts recently

[Dannflor]

Did you mix up loved with hated? Thank you though

no

I interpreted it as who would I be voting right now if I didn't have to worry about the day ending early

I suppose if this was D1 of a mini I would be voting Norwee because I think he deserves pressure and is more urgent to sort. But Walter is who I want to eliminate. Maybe norwee is the real answer to your question then.

[Dannflor]

I'm leaning GC but that is pending a Hectic reread

[Dannflor]

I would guess the heavening discussion is more likely to be alignment indicative

[Dannflor]

Dann, if we hit scum today, do you see as a good move sending GC to heaven ? (In you opinion)

Uhhh I'm not sure

I think it kinda depends on how my read evolves on him / what he shows between now and then.

If I think there's a good chance he's scum then probably not, I would lean towards you or Isis or myself. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if he heaven'd him and he flipped scum, considering we would be at 4:1 with you still around as our towny town. But I'd rather be able to heaven town reads and have those be corrected by the flip than to heaven scum reads.

Right now my read on GC is pretty stale and I need to both reread him and him to hopefully have the chance to post more

[Dannflor]

dear god

[Dannflor]

his post 1148 is real conspiracy theory stuff. like, what i would consider to be a bastard mod territory theory. at best this is anti-town, at worst pro-scum, to invite convo to get paranoid about a heavening a town.

hmmm

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: my contribution

[Dannflor]

Isis I'm confused on the rules of this puzzle game

[Dannflor]

CTh seems to look more town recently

Are there specific posts that made you think this?

[Dannflor]

Beyond Cyth's hammer D1, do you have other reasons for scum reading that slot? Or is it mainly down to PoE / town reading everyone else?

[Dannflor]

Cyth, why do you suddenly want to kill Walter over GC

[Dannflor]

Could everyone start putting their votes down? I didn't learn VCA from Titus for nothing.

i have something to post when i get home later

then i will vote

[Dannflor]

I've been less focused on Green Crayons because Hayasaka was convinced he was town, and also I was waiting for him to post this phase

What do you think after he has posted?

[Dannflor]

because of the way Norwee established us as a SvT and started pushing Green Crayons.

you don't think distancing would be likely there?

[Dannflor]

Dann and cth have high scum equity due to high how of a read cth had on him earlier in the game and wanting to heaven him.

hmmmm this is actually an indicator two people aren't aligned imo

[Dannflor]

I think there are elements of his posts that are towny. I've felt this since like his entrance to the game. My first impression of him was that he was maybe town. There will be like one line every 5 posts that I think is mildly towny. But taken all together, there is no solid defining reason to town read the slot, not like I feel with you or Isis. I haven't read an entire post and been like, "oh that was a towny post."

I also know the more he posts, the more I'm gonna find potentially towny things in his ISO. taking the slot altogether though I don't find him town.

[Dannflor]

Dann and cth have high scum equity due to high how of a read cth had on him earlier in the game and wanting to heaven him.

hmmmm this is actually an indicator two people aren't aligned imo

Really, ok I guess scratch that part of that statement then.
I did not know that.

I mean it's not a fact

I would just guess that scum are trying to distance more than usual in this setup

[Dannflor]

I have a theory about that

[Dannflor]

I don't think the lack of votes on Walter this day phase is necessarily indicative of his alignment. Personally, I've withheld my vote thus far despite my resolve staying mostly the same (Norwee has tempted me) because I wanted time for both Walter to post/spew and GC to catch up without worry that the day will end via quickhammer. I think Isis expressed a similar sentiment. While there could be other reasons for the relatively slow momentum on Walter, I think what I stated at least partially explains that.

There's a possibility that Walter is town and scum is hesitant to "dirty their hands" so to speak on a wagon that could be viewed as LHF. But, I'm rather skeptical of that given I'd expect at least one TMI town read half-way defending Walter for cred if that were truly the case. Instead, every player in the game has shaded or pushed Walter to some degree (Norwee being somewhat of an exception but also not really).

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Walter e-1

[Dannflor]

That is okay, I hope my flip is helpful and haya makes the correct decision on a scum.

Walter straight up has no desire to survive. Usually, both town and scum have different flavors of survivalism. However, Walter has none of that here. Rather, it's scum-flavored survivalism disguised as non-survivalism. Take the above post, Walter has the nice "oh I hope my flip helps town" and "i hope town makes the right decision" going on, but he doesn't actually put anything forward to help Haya make the correct decision or his flip more helpful. Essentially, he's got the LAMIST parts of being okay with dying, without any of the dying desperation townies who know they're about to get miselimed almost always have. He's not trying to make sure his most confident reads get heard. There's no dying "investigate/kill these slots next."

Walter has previously said that clidd is either "being manipulated or is scum" yet is now saying that it's okay that he's dying. There's just so much dissonance in Walter's posts that I don't think is town. He's trying to act like a townie would face death but I think he's missing the desperation that townies actually have when faced with death.

Is it possible Walter is just a really chill dude and isn't confident enough in anything to really push for his flip to mean to something beyond whatever we passively glean from it? Maybeee? But I think that would be an exception.

and I'm sorry if I'm wrong Walter because you seem really cool and I hope you sign up for more mafia games

[Dannflor]

It’s hard for me to make sense of the events on this day with the current info given. Ironically i almost would have preferred a scum in heaven today because then i’d know what to look for. Now it’s 3v4 and i’m kinda clueless with how everyone seemed ok with voting anyone. I’m thinking the GC/Hectic 1v1 is the most likely TvS conflict here so i’d rather vote in here than just Walter. Walter could be scum with anyone imo, so if they maf i’m still unsure where to look.

VOTE: Green Crayon
I would prefer this over Walter. There’s deepwolves somewhere. Only way to explain this "Everyone is so town omg this hard ;(" mood.

Do you think Walter is town?

Smells like low-hanging fruit to me. I wanna vote in GC/Hectic and i’m TR’ing Hectic more than GC right now.

You had Isis as super strong town enough to be heavenened last phase.

Can you talk about that read

I stand by my read at the time. But i don’t see any teams possible where Walter is just sticking out like a sore thumb. Which has made me paranoid of most of my TR’s. There has to be at least 1/2 scum in Isis/Clidd/GC/Dann from my POV and i think GC is the most sus.

I strongly dislike Norwee actively avoiding taking a stance on Walter. He simultaneously "could be scum" but is also brushed off as "LHF." I don't get the sense that Norwee actually town reads Walter, yet eliminating him is apparently a bad idea. The avoidance of defending Walter outright versus just shading everyone else reads like someone who knows Walter is likely dying but wants to take on this paranoid deep-wolves-everywhere stance in the hopes that gets town read. I don't think Norwegian has any real reason to town read Walter except for the fact he feels there are several masterminds at play here. It reads fake versus considering Walter as scum along with potential partners in the Isis/clidd/GC/Dann group. Instead, his purpose here doesn't really seem to be to solve for a team but to sow paranoia.

[Dannflor]

Clidd, if you don’t see that scum are in the towncore then i can only assume you are working for the scum in that group.

I commented on how bad this was but Norwegian, this is so bad. I don't understand your thought process here at all if you are somehow town.

Clidd is obv-town imo. At the very least, he's done a lot of towny things and produced a lot of content. From the perfectly *reasonable* stance of scum reading in the pool of you/Walter, you basically say that you're assuming he might be scum. This is a very shallow 1 dimensional take and I'm not sure how you're trying to sort clidd at all.

You're making sense as demon to me, Norwergian.

That’s cool.
It’s natural to go for easy bait if you TR scum. Makes sense as both alignments for you to suspect me here.

I also don't get that post when combined with this one, where you admit it makes sense for him as town to suspect you. And yet you're attacking him essentially for scum reading you / not looking at a certain pool enough. Again, this seems more focused on getting scum reads concentrated in "the town core" than it does in actually sorting or considering lower slots like walter *along with* potential deep wolves

[Dannflor]

can i interest anyone in VOTE: Cth

i'm being lazy rn, but because of all the things i've said before

I think,

this is also bad.

My first reaction was that this is towny and woo hoo go GC for sticking with your gut blah blah. But after posting two large paragraphs about how meh and somewhat scummy both Norwegian and Walter are, GC reverts back to this vote. Yes, it's GC's original scum read. but with pressure mounting on both Norwegian and Walter, it just seems like a way to either avoid taking responsibility or to shift the topic away from those two. There's no argument for why Cth should be voted over Norwegian or Walter, just readjusting of a tunnel that's lasted since early Heaven Phase and hasn't rest. It doesn't seem like GC is really absorbing the game in that case? There's no taking into account other people's reads or talking about why people find Walter and Norwee so much scummier. It's the position of "those eliminations are fine" but going after what is essentially a vanity wagon instead.

I liked Cthylla's response this Hell phase in contrast to this. I don't think Cythlla has dropped the scum read on GC either, but he has spent some time reevaluating based on Hayasaka's read on him. He's also put GC on hold to sort / eliminate in Norwegian/Walter, which is honestly a much more pressing duty. Cthylla's also doing more than just dropping a paragraph about why each of the slots aren't all that great. He's actively sorting them and asking them questions. In contrast, GC's catchup today looking like the lower limit of what he needed to do to keep getting town read, and then he just slipped back into his tunnel because it let's him avoid seriously consider Norwegian and Walter while still saying that they are "adequate hells."

[Dannflor]

Random thought but I'd feel so bad for Norwee if he rolled scum again. I want to believe he didn't roll it for once

random thought but I thought this post was pretty towny

[Dannflor]

I don't know I think GC/Norwee/Walter is exactly my solve and I don't exactly agree with Cthylla that GC doesn't fit in there.

Although scum are more apt to distance due to associations being high value in this game, there is also encouragement not to heavily bus. This game is basically White Flag in some respects, which means scum truly bussing as a self-propelled strategy is basically to self-destruct. Scum has to hit a precarious balance between the two in this setup. Tbh, I think this team is managing it. Walter knows he has a good chance of dying and is pushing Norwegian heaviest with some light shade at GC. Norwegian knows he's in a not great position and is pushing GC directly. GC is shading both of Norwegian and Walter but avoiding truly pushing either. I mean, I think the scum team is exactly going to be doing things that'll make you not want to put them together as a team, Cythlla, while still keeping each other alive as much as possible. I think that's what is happening with these three

[Dannflor]

anyway walter scum, norwee is just scum his posts are very bad today.

And I think the reasons for townreading GC are a little bunk

Like some of Hayasaka's reasoning consisted of GC holding opinions that don't really benefit scum, but I disagree. The fact that GC goes against consensus a lot by putting clidd as null or whatever else is probably one of the only paths that a scum team that has Norwee/Walter would win. If say, Dann/Isis/clidd/Cythlla is all town, then scum isn't in great shape. They HAVE to break up that block and holding "against the norm" reads like clidd scum is one of the only ways to do that.

[Dannflor]

anyway clidd is in my top tier of town reads

Isis and Cythlla are in the next tier but still basically at the point where I'm not reconsidering until I'm forced to. I have fairly strong town reads on both that keep getting stronger the more I think about them.

And the more I think about the more I think it really is just Walter/Norwegian/GC, but maybe that's the 2am confbias talking. I hope walter does not flip town and make me look stupid

[Dannflor]

I had the brief thought that GC was on the right track with saying that Cythlla's interactions with Walter were bad. I was thinking that maybe Cythlla was intentionally drawing out these long engagements with Walter so that when Walter inevitably died Cythlla would look all the better for it. But rereading the interactions I don't get that sense. Especially with Cythlla pushing both Norwegian and Walter simultaneously, I don't think they can be his team at the same time as a bus like that. also doing the thing where Cthylla's like "walter randomly gives me townpings maybe we should go Norwegian instead" in #1292 doesn't really make sense if he's trying to bus either, unless Cythlla thinks he can save walter.

Regardless, I think in general Cthylla's questions have erred on the side of genuine sorting and reconsideration rather than just trying to be right or improve his image. His trajectory seems a little too fluid for that

[Dannflor]

Dann isn’t right on me being scum with Walter though, and if i was i’d probably just buss them today.

idk if you're on a team with walter though and you bus

do your think your slot ever goes to heaven? don't you think it's still helled eventually? I don't think that's a very convincing argument because bussing essentially would just lose you the game faster

[Dannflor]

basically my conclusions are as such

[Dannflor]

idk if Isis or Cthylla or clidd is scum I think I just want Hayasaka to have to deal with that

also Norwegian idk why you say GC not pushing walter implicates him but you not pushing walter doesn't implicate you?

[Dannflor]

Dann isn’t right on me being scum with Walter though, and if i was i’d probably just buss them today.

idk if you're on a team with walter though and you bus

do your think your slot ever goes to heaven? don't you think it's still helled eventually? I don't think that's a very convincing argument because bussing essentially would just lose you the game faster

Or i could just buss and then go for judgement day? Getting heavened isn’t necesarilly the goal, have you thought about that?

I mean yes. but in order to do that you would have hell someone else first and then also have another townie get helled in judgement day over you

[Dannflor]

yikes

[Dannflor]

I am sad

[Dannflor]

don't see how walter/norwegian is more pressing that cth/gc

really?

I feel like a decent amount of people find towniness about both your slots

whereas walter and norwegian have definitely had more consensus scum reads directed towards them.

[Dannflor]

I don't think Cthllya and GC is SvS, like almost ever

and I still think GC is scum

which means I'm wrong in Isis/Clidd

[Dannflor]

I guess we don't necessarily have to find the third if we can hell the first two

it's just a matter of making sure we're right in GC/Norwegian

I still think Cthylla's progression is a lot more natural and townier than GC's trajectory last phase / this phase. I also think the two bussing is a really weird strategy if Norwegian is their third.

[Dannflor]

By Cythlla? The player you think is scum?

[Dannflor]

I don't know I feel like Cythlla has faced similar levels of being ignored on his tunnel and he still has a desire to sort the game in other respects

[Dannflor]

A lot of trying to compare Cyth and Dannflor keeps coming up "I believe in my heart that Dannflor has more range" and I feel bad for having trouble getting any deeper than that

now I have to decide if you actually think I'm still in my range

[Dannflor]

you don't think it's possible clidd is scum instead of norwegian or something, GC?

I feel like you don't have super mega confident town reads on everyone else enough to justify that take

idk maybe that inconsistency is actually towny but it doesn't connect with you thinking about the game in a way where you're constantly evaluating

[Dannflor]

I still think GC is town.

you would as his partner

DUN DUN DUN

[Dannflor]

I actually don't know if I think clidd has a chance of being scum but I also think I would not be more surprised than if Isis or Cthylaadlasal were scum

[Dannflor]

it skeeves me out

[Dannflor]

oh no

[Dannflor]

norwegian's posts to clidd last phase were really gross

like really really gross

like he wasn't even trying to be towny or look like he was sorting clidd or anything

[Dannflor]

it reminds me vaguely of when I pushed Iconeum randomly in alisae vs. pine

[Dannflor]

I'm suddenly paranoi-ing myself into a Norwee + Green Crayons + clidd world, it would fit the way you kept trying to explain off Crayon's scuminess as "trolling".

I'm doing the same

particularly I'm finding myself very skeeved about the clidd/Norwee interactions

[Dannflor]

it reminds me vaguely of when I pushed Iconeum randomly in alisae vs. pine

this is me saying that it looks like it could be scum theatre

[Dannflor]

I'm struggling to see the town mindset of

let's start with clidd, who will remain my wildcard.

leading into

judgment norwegian
heaven dann
hell cth


win

i've sorted the game. norwegian/cth scum. done.

it doesn't necessarily implicate clidd but I don't understand why GC isn't demonstrating the same level of paranoia / thoroughness about other slots that he has on previous phases

especially considering this is judgement day

[Dannflor]

after that, next level suspicions are clidd and isis. im putting them on the same level because i don't really want to expend the mental energy to sort them. because i don't need to. we only need to judgment 1 scum and hell 1 scum. that's done via norwegian and cth.


so it isn't a matter of swapping clid instead of norwegian. i think it's cth + norwegian + . dann and gc are town in my book.

okayyy

I just did not get the sense you were this confident on scum!norwegian before now

[Dannflor]

I hope norwegian isn't town because I don't feel he's really tried to show it

[Dannflor]

I'm really confbiased at this point, but yeah, Green Crayon's bravado reads as really fake.

What do you mean in 1444, Isis?

I'm sympathetic to a SvS interpretation

references to AvP should come with trigger warnings though

I apologize

[Dannflor]

perhaps clidd/isis/norwegian makes some sense

by my heart of hearts feels bad when I try putting isis in scum teams

I feel like my mind is just wandering there because the recent posts from GC are just yucky in a way that make scum reading him less fun

pedit; isis can you clarify whether that vote is just a "I suspect this person" or a "I think Hayasaka should judge this person?"

[Dannflor]

perhaps clidd/isis/norwegian makes some sense

by my heart of hearts feels bad when I try putting isis in scum teams

I feel like my mind is just wandering there because the recent posts from GC are just yucky in a way that make scum reading him less fun

pedit; isis can you clarify whether that vote is just a "I suspect this person" or a "I think Hayasaka should judge this person?"

Hmm, I don't think so. clidd could very easily follow the flow of GC-scum and then get a victory with Norwee and Green Crayon hells. There's no reason to white knight GC here.

mmm yeah that's a good point

[Dannflor]

green crayons what do you think of clidd having you as town so confidently

[Dannflor]

idk if hayasaka goes for a spicy take I think isis/cthylla are both much worse choices than gc/clidd

if it is exactly isis/cthylla well then yikes

[Dannflor]

I want to win this game for Walter I feel bad about his elimination

[Dannflor]

I think GC has been very clear that he's been Very Serious this game

[Dannflor]

Hum

[Dannflor]

his clash seems to be more with his personal stress of playing, which seems less alignment indicative to me

but I also do not want to think about the third

[Dannflor]

the number of emotions I just went through

[Dannflor]

good shit Hayasaka

[Dannflor]

thinking Norwe just ends the game

[Dannflor]

I think the Heaven phase implicates Isis/Norwegian a lot but someone might wanna check me on that

[Dannflor]

I don't think clidd/Isis are aligned

And taken altogether the clidd slot is still net towny despite my last minute tin foil hatting

also hi DrDoLittle

[Dannflor]

Norwee + Green Crayons + Isis is the page 5 power solve <: )

Isis you just ignored my question in favour of talking about cards. WHY is your text Purply?

this looks like a fake interaction

which makes the third either Green Crayons or Cthylla. I hope it's GC because that means this post is awesome and because I think Cthylla is really towny.

But in the end I don't think it really matters and I don't have to worry about it because we can just kill Norwegian

[Dannflor]

I don't think it's super likely that clidd and GC have that little spat if they are teammates, do you?

[Dannflor]

I also will say despite distancing being somewhat encouraged in this setup I highly doubt there's a universe where GC and Cthylla are both aligned as scum

[Dannflor]

I think Isis has periodically tried to shade me this game and I've always been skeeved out by it but also just kinda assumed maybe I wasn't actually being towny enough

some of her posts make a lot more sense now

[Dannflor]

I guess the only thing I really have to make sure of is that you and clidd/DDL isn't somehow a team

but I town read you both individually so

[Dannflor]

guess I'll wait for Norwegian to post out of courtesy

[Dannflor]

I'm curious which team he tries to push for

[Dannflor]

we're probably sending norwegian to hell

unless you have a spicy take that he is actually town you'd like to convince us of

[Dannflor]

uh if we hell one more scum we win, if we hell a towny here then Hayasaka up in heaven gets to decide our fate