Micro 1085: Even/Odd Killers [GAME OVER]

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: datisi

you rolled scum again didn't you, i can see it in your eyes

[fireisredsir]

idk whenever i get weird messages i am immediately sus

where do i vote

[fireisredsir]

is this like some hypo theory shit

[fireisredsir]

imagine having a n0

[fireisredsir]

thats one of most brutal lines ive ever heard ngl

[fireisredsir]

ill go ahead and hardclaim dumb, idk what the issue w that is

[fireisredsir]

btw i will be pretty busy for the next week starting tomorrow (more than usual) and then after that will be less busy than usual probably

[fireisredsir]

so probably will be not super active for a bit besides today

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: thestatusquo

real vote

[fireisredsir]

we're in rvs it's just that the r stands for real and not random

[fireisredsir]

Fires vote isn't real he's just gonna be like yadda yadda yadda you said something like that in your garlic bread entrance.

that is the reason yes

more specifically that i think you'd be the kind of person to think it's funny to up the ante on that entrance if you rolled scum again as like a "hehe nobody will suspect me to be so obvious" type of thing

as evidenced by the fact that you are the type of player to in that game say "my scum partner is baltar" in your second post and be telling the truth (and to have gotten away with it lol)

i will think on if it makes me feel better or worse or neutral that you identified the reason

[fireisredsir]

yea i think knowing is neutral, more about the way in which you identified/pointed out the reason

[fireisredsir]

the scum comment was cheekier but "ima lurk this game" -> "im not gonna post at all this game" feels like a direct escalation

[fireisredsir]

that seems a little pre-emptive

im p sure there's only been 2 games and i believe i actually wrongly townread you pretty hard in the second one

[fireisredsir]

oh i did forget one game

first game doesn't count

second game dance game i correctly townread you

third game hollow knight i wrongly townread you

[fireisredsir]

oh. well sorry if i give off that vibe!! i would prefer not to

[fireisredsir]

i think it is like 80% unimportant and 20% not wanting you to dismiss my suspicions as "oh fire always suspects me" when that isn't true

i don't think you're lying about your perception or anything but i do think it isn't accurate or fair to dismiss it in that way

[fireisredsir]

it's not about how you perceive it, it's about you downplaying it to the thread

[fireisredsir]

I don't think Shea putting fire at e-1 makes me think he's aligned one way or the other. I can see reasons for him doing this as scum but that doesn't make him scum

what made you bring this up as a reason?

[fireisredsir]

i don't think appearance is that scummy

the general wagon kinda feels like a jumping on a slight awkwardness of phrasing things that imo is nai

[fireisredsir]

thats true but i think your vote is also kinda silly

[fireisredsir]

im fairly sure appearance isn't hiding the fact that he's an alt

[fireisredsir]

thats true but i think your vote is also kinda silly

I think your face is kind of silly!

[fireisredsir]

im fairly sure appearance isn't hiding the fact that he's an alt

Okay, I'll wait to hear, what game are you referring to appearance?

what exactly about this makes you think appearance is scum and what will this question accomplish

do you think he just made up meta that doesn't exist and hoped nobody would notice?

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: donempire

thought his posts were iffy so far

[fireisredsir]

sheep
datisi appearance roden
fire??
donempire merlyn
black tsq

pretty close to agree if you swap us which is neat

[fireisredsir]

let's wagon donempire imo

[fireisredsir]

datisi locktown!!!!

[fireisredsir]

shea distracting the conversation away from our new glorious wagon on his scumbuddy donempire smh smh

[fireisredsir]

i am having trouble feeling alignment related thoughts from much of anything here recently tbh

i will try to read closer later today ig

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: deltabreedy

[fireisredsir]

i also think that while not directly calling him noobscum your case is a really semantic one that doesn't really feel like good faith sorting

i think that there's no way to believe that was a legit slip without believing that datisi is incompetent bc lol

i also think this is more like the points you push when you're scum

[fireisredsir]

the e-1 was also on me not sheep

[fireisredsir]

I mean I can put a full-on case together on you but at present it's a central pillar yeah.

Nothing you've said is really convincing me that I need more to be honest.

this post is probably the worst one

[fireisredsir]

i think that reading it in the manner that you did requires deliberately ignoring a more likely explanation

[fireisredsir]

i also think that while not directly calling him noobscum your case is a really semantic one that doesn't really feel like good faith sorting

i think that there's no way to believe that was a legit slip without believing that datisi is incompetent bc lol

i also think this is more like the points you push when you're scum

i was actually thinking this is townie for him

i'd need to actually check his scum games, but i don't get the vibe he's a "purposefully push hella bad arguments at a relatively townread person for townpoints"

i went and read/skimmed a town and a scum game and i definitely did lol

more that his arguments as scum just seemed really kinda bad whereas as town they were sometimes bad but he was more likely to continue trying to sort and solve and reassess rather than doubling down on them

[fireisredsir]

Spoiler: 4 posts of datisi's initial reaction being trying to explain why you're wrong in a very reasonable manner

Datisi's #59 disregards by omission the possibility of hitting scum or SK with a powerlim on Sheep.

what? i specifically said in the post that i don't think it's be a good move even if we hit scum with a quick yeet there

*Snip*
we lose a full day, then tomorrow we yeet that person and either they're scum (which like, meh) or it's a townie who wanted to be funny and then we lose TWO days and no
*Snip*

No, you didn't.

You said we lose a full day today, then everything after that point refers to the D2 lim. I've highlighted it below:

*Snip*
we lose a full day,
*Snip*

No mention of scumhood here
And then

*Snip*
then tomorrow we yeet that person and either they're scum (which like, meh) or it's a townie who wanted to be funny

and then we lose TWO days

and no
*Snip*

You completely disregarded the possibility of the lim hitting scum by virtue of saying that 2 days would be wasted which struck me as scummy.

Suggesting by omission that they aren't scum suggested to me a level of knowledge about the game. Can't be an SK with that level of knowledge about the game so has to be scum IMO.

oh, i see what you mean now. i was responding to shea's 57 there, which says that

If someone lol hammers it would probably be way more informative than what usually happens on page 2 of a game

it would be informative - i figured the assumption was made that the person getting lolhammered would flip green (because if they were red, then any sort of information about the lolhammerer kind of pales in comparison to actually having a red flip), and the "it would be informative" surely wasn't talking about the person potentially getting hammered because we'd know their alignment soon enough

also, i've never seen scum getting lolhammered on page 2, but i have seen town getting lolhammered on page two. so i would be making the assumption that, if anyone does get hammered on page 2, it's going to be a townie

and, technically speaking: even if i were scum, i still cannot have the level of knowledge to know whether the quickhammer on day 1 is going to flip town or not, so ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

and, technically speaking: even if i were scum, i still cannot have the level of knowledge to know whether the quickhammer on day 1 is going to flip town or not, so ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

This is a non-sequitur - you would know whether or not it would flip scum which is the key distinction.

Would it flip town? Maybe. Would it flip SK? Maybe. But the thing that you avoided was that chance of it flipping scum, that's where the omission occurs and that's why I think its scummy.

i know it's a non-sequitur, i'm poking fun at your 277, which claimed:
"Datisi's #59 disregards by omission the possibility of hitting scum or SK with a powerlim on Sheep."
which implies that i am informed in two ways, which. you know. you get why it's false.

then, when i say "scum" i'm generally referring to any non-town. with 284 being an exception because i was responding to you there.

finally, omission: yes, i was assuming a quickhammer wouldn't flip scum. this is because (1) the conversation was going in that direction, (2) i have never seen a p2 quickhammer flip not-town.

[fireisredsir]

You've done this by feigning outrage, by appealing to the playerbase, insinuating that my line of reasoning comes from a position of attacking your character and you've failed to actually engage with anything that I said outside of the vote on you.

like this is so blatantly untrue that my immediate reaction is to think like datisi did of "scum wouldn't double down on just completely misrepresenting things this hard, would they?"

but i think he is the type of scum player who might

[fireisredsir]

there was no ducking and diving he literally directly addressed your point and explained his thought process behind the post and you pretended he didn't and are still pretending he didn't

[fireisredsir]

there was no ducking and diving he literally directly addressed your point and explained his thought process behind the post and you pretended he didn't and are still pretending he didn't

Nope, he categorically didn't. I've explained why.

just because you said that 283 isn't a valid response doesn't mean that it isn't

that is very directly addressing your point and explaining why he made the post in the way that he did

and that explanation seems way more reasonable and likely than yours, being that he scumslipped lol

[fireisredsir]

This is the post I am referring to by the way Fire. Please - prove me wrong.

literally the entire post, what are you talking about lol

he makes two points which address it:
1) shea was assuming a townflip, bc he said the lolhammer would be good for information. he was continuing this line of conversation
2) he's never seen a page 2 lolhammer be on scum, so he also thought it was a reasonable assumption to make

i think he pretty clearly thought that everyone in this game was reasonable enough that he didn't need to put the obvious implied disclaimer of "(or fire flips scum)" bc duh. i also think if anything he'd be more careful to put that in if he's scum. i think the chance that he forgot to consider the possibility that i could be scum is literally 0% even if he is scum

[fireisredsir]

sheep is probably either town or im gonna let him pocket me

[fireisredsir]

i guess sk is believably someone who could have scumhunting opinions but not care deeply about pushing them into thread

idk how to sk hunt

[fireisredsir]

honestly not sure what town!fires motivation for trying to chop down me down there is though.

doesn't really serve any purpose for actually expressing a read on sheep or for actually discerning either of our alignments. Seems only designed to express a town read that can be pointed back to later tbh.

uhh sorry?

sheep posted some stuff and i had a reaction to it and i posted my thoughts

it didn't really have anything to do with you

[fireisredsir]

i thought your initial poke was fine and reasonable and didn't have anything to say about it

then i think sheep's response made me think he was town, i already kinda was lightly leaning in that direction but not that much

[fireisredsir]

I dont struggle to produce good thoughts as wolf

funnily that was basically the early push on me last game

I just find it harder soooometimes as villager to find the motivation to type up for u guys what im thinking lmaoo like screw u all

I don't really feel like this is true. I've played with town you a lot and while your thoughts are short and not in depth they're always there and I always am able to follow your thought process.

Here, not even a little bit.

like here i just have a different reaction

i feel like i can see where his thoughts are coming from and i can follow his thought process

and yeah they kinda align with things other people including me have said but i don't think that's an inherently scummy thing unless he's trying to pocket me which was my follow up thought but i don't think he really has to try lol

[fireisredsir]

idk you can read the posts yourself and if you think they're lacking then me repeating what is in them is not gonna do anything for you or satisfy you so i can already tell this interaction is going to suck but whatever

- finding you scummy but not really feeling like the reasons are very good and so not particularly wanting to push on them
- feeling like the game is lacking in things that are needing to be talked about and just generally not being motivated to talk to people here or force content out
- going back and forth on delta

it just feels like he's looking at the game from more or less similar perspective as i am

[fireisredsir]

i did explain the read

[fireisredsir]

yeah

thats the explanation

you can be unsatisfied by it if you want but it is what it is

[fireisredsir]

i don't think that most people in this game have done very much that is readable so currently the bar for what gives me a read on someone is fairly low

[fireisredsir]

don and maybe shea

appearance i think some of the reasons that he was pushed over were bad and probably scummy which kinda makes me lean town but independent of that i don't particularly townread him. so.... eh

merlyn i guess i should read closer

you/sheep/datisi i wouldn't vote rn

[fireisredsir]

yea that didn't help

i don't really know how to read merlyn bc from bits and pieces that ive seen of her play, i don't really understand her process or mindset as town and that makes it so i struggle to figure out if her thoughts are real or not

[fireisredsir]

i did like her readlist actually

[fireisredsir]

if it makes it feel better i don't townread those posts at all

[fireisredsir]

i meant to say makes you feel better but im sleepy

i think it kinda makes sense either way tho

[fireisredsir]

which points of delta's do you agree with?

[fireisredsir]

I think they solving and honestly the fact that everyone keeps saying they think we're partnered even further reinforces my read that they're town.

Doesn't seem very likely that scum would push a narrative of me having a scum buddy when I'm town.

are you saying roden is scum? who else said this

[fireisredsir]

i forgot to respond when you asked about it but i also don't have that much to say about it

they just seemed like reasonable takes to me, didn't really feel like she was reaching for anything or pushing agenda

[fireisredsir]

501 is a question that i would like specifically shea to answer

[fireisredsir]

501 is a question that i would like specifically shea to answer

didn't shea mention delta prior to that?
the way u phrased things felt like u weren't reading all of shea's posts or else chose to focus on roden specifically when both delta and don had mentioned the strat.
something i want to ask u is why u chose to ask shea only on roden. did u not care about his opinion on the others (e.g. don)?

he's ignoring me anyway so whatever okay

where did shea mention delta? and where did don say shea/merlyn were teamed?

i mentioned roden bc he was the main one to bring up the idea. delta expressed interest in it at least. i disagree that datisi expressed a belief in the theory. i was wondering who shea thought the scum was that was pushing the theory bc his stated reason for townreading merlyn in that post relies on him thinking that someone pushing the theory is scum

[fireisredsir]

i didn't really like appearance's latest posts

[fireisredsir]

felt more like talking/arguing for the sake of it rather than genuine attempts to solve

[fireisredsir]

501 is a question that i would like specifically shea to answer

didn't shea mention delta prior to that?
the way u phrased things felt like u weren't reading all of shea's posts or else chose to focus on roden specifically when both delta and don had mentioned the strat.
something i want to ask u is why u chose to ask shea only on roden. did u not care about his opinion on the others (e.g. don)?

he's ignoring me anyway so whatever okay

where did shea mention delta? and where did don say shea/merlyn were teamed?

i mentioned roden bc he was the main one to bring up the idea. delta expressed interest in it at least. i disagree that datisi expressed a belief in the theory. i was wondering who shea thought the scum was that was pushing the theory bc his stated reason for townreading merlyn in that post relies on him thinking that someone pushing the theory is scum

don didn't say shea/merlyn were aligned but he did mention the 'aim for maf' strat.
and i'm pretty sure shea mentioned delta in 483.

ok and neither of those things are relevant to what i was talking about so why are you bringing them up?

[fireisredsir]

for context

477 - shea said that "everyone" was pushing the idea that him and merlyn were partnered, so he townreads merlyn bc scum wouldn't push that he was partnered with their buddy

501 - i think this sounds like a made up thought, because i only saw one maybe two people agreeing with that idea. so i ask shea to clarify who exactly he is talking about, bringing up roden as the main example

508 - you for some reason decide to answer on behalf of shea and say that you're "pretty sure other people have implied this", saying that you think datisi questioning shea on merlyn "could be interpreted" as him pushing that idea. which, no, not really, but also if shea believes that then he can tell me that himself

519 - you follow that up by saying that 501 makes it seems like im not paying attention to the game (lol??)

520 - i let you know that 501 was a question for shea

521 - you ask me why i focused on roden instead of delta/don who also mentioned "the strat"?? idk why you are talking about hunting for sk when this conversation wasn't about that at all

528 - i clarify that im talking about people pushing shea/merlyn as partners, and am generally confused at what you are talking about and why

and now we're here

[fireisredsir]

idk its kinda ironic that you're saying im not paying attention to the game when your responses here are not really paying any attention to what im saying

but beyond that it's like, idk what the point of you involving yourself was at all especially when you're arguing about things that were never said or are completely irrelevant

thats what feels like not solving to me, it feels like you're just picking something to talk about bc you know you need some content

[fireisredsir]

roden
sheep
datisi

merlyn

shea
appearance

don
delta

[fireisredsir]

idk how to find sk but i think they could easily be in the top half of my reads since they are uninformed so it's not very hard for them to fake looking towny i would think?

i think don's theory of appearance being sk is kinda dumb bc part of the issue w him (at least my issue) is lack of genuine looking scum hunting which shouldn't be difficult for sk to fake since it wouldn't even be fake

and i don't really like don's overconfidence in it, it feels kinda like he just decided a narrative to push bc then he doesn't have to fake any nuance or solving thought

that said appearance is kinda scummy regardless

[fireisredsir]

idk how to find sk but i think they could easily be in the top half of my reads since they are uninformed so it's not very hard for them to fake looking towny i would think?

i think don's theory of appearance being sk is kinda dumb bc part of the issue w him (at least my issue) is lack of genuine looking scum hunting which shouldn't be difficult for sk to fake since it wouldn't even be fake

and i don't really like don's overconfidence in it, it feels kinda like he just decided a narrative to push bc then he doesn't have to fake any nuance or solving thought

that said appearance is kinda scummy regardless

Interesting. It's a very shallow disertation of what i've said so far. As for your point of contestion, Sk would not want to be overtly doing scumhunting because they wouldn't want to be targeted by scum.

Can you expand on your shea and merlyn reads?

shea idk i think he's been kinda scummy but i also think he might try harder to not look scummy if he's actually scum lol

like ignoring me just kinda makes me think that he doesn't want to talk to me but doesn't think the point is important which he's probably more likely to feel as town bc he knows he's town. if he knows he's scum he may feel more obligated to defend himself. im aware this is an awful reason to lessen a scumread on someone but shrug

merlyn i don't have anything to elaborate on beyond what i already said which isn't very much. i don't have a strong read on her and im not really sure how to

[fireisredsir]

I think it's quirky that Fire jumped in to defend Datisi super-hard, it looked more like someone looking to curry favour on what was being universally called a bad read for credit, and didnt read as genuine.

Why would Town!Fire jump in to defend Datisi? Meh I dont think they're town

i mean the point wasn't about datisi really

your arguments just seemed really bad and scummy to me and i was attacking them bc i think you're scum, and trying to show why i didn't think they were believable thoughts for town to have

call it a chainsaw if you want lol, that would at least be more accurate

[fireisredsir]

looked more like someone looking to curry favour on what was being universally called a bad read for credit

this is also just made up

i was the first one besides datisi to call it out as a bad read. nobody else had criticized it at all. it was nowhere close to "what was universally called a bad read"

even if you're talking about afterwards (which makes no sense -- how would i know in advance it would be universally called a bad read?) it def was not universal, don and appearance liked your points

[fireisredsir]

i don't think doing that is ever going to get me favor from anyone

the only reason i cared is bc i think you're scum

[fireisredsir]

hello its me datisi

VOTE: appearance

[fireisredsir]

huh okay neat

should have trusted my initial instinct i guess

[fireisredsir]

i am surprised scum shea ignores me there

i feel like if anything it could be intentional to try to set up some sort of false association? idk with who though

[fireisredsir]

Actually now that I think about it more, the SK would have another motive in killing Shea. If they took Cop immunity, they're set up to be in an amazing position if they manage to kill off the scum team ASAP and take full control of the NK. So if they actually did scum read Shea, it isn't a bad for them to kill him.

But I guess hitting scum that isn't Shea is still a better play. At least IMO, since aiming to kill Shea's partner last night and then voting out Shea today would've been optimal.

this requires a somewhat surprising amount of confidence that shea would be a main target for the lim today

idk if i would necessarily expect that to be the case

[fireisredsir]

the flips make me feel like my worldview has been very good. it has been reinforced.

I would say the last mafia is almost always in delta/don

still no clue how to find an SK

i am also pretty much here

[fireisredsir]

ms still so slow ill look at stuff later

my initial thought is i think if we can then flipping the sk is probably better bc finding the mafia is probably easier due to having associatives

and people can be cleared as non maf or guiltied whereas sk may be immune

[fireisredsir]

that said im not really sure how to hunt sk and i kinda have a feeling they may be in the people that im otherwise townreading which i don't really think i could bring myself to want to flip today so ehh

[fireisredsir]

I do feel like either way our main sources are gonna have to be the appearance lim. Only sk knew that appearance was, at the very least not sk if possibly scummy, and if we go off the possibility that they thought appearance was vt we can find sk from there.

im not sure why sk would think appearance was vt rather than scum or possibly just not caring what he was

i thought he was more likely to be scum than sk personally so i could imagine sk thinking he could be scum

[fireisredsir]

this is kinda what i talked about earlier when i was saying it's hard for me to read merlyn

especially the like... focus on her own votes. i think i naturally read it as scummy. maybe it's just a phrasing thing but when she says stuff like "this reason isn't enough to deserve a vote" or "this deserves a vote" or saying how her vote was only a pressure vote

she does it as town and it stood out to me then, but it's hard for me to really wrap my head around the mindset that produces those kind of thoughts. it feels like, a step removed from natural scumhunting

i think she probably is just town though

[fireisredsir]

i guess i think it probably still just is delta as maf

i think the initial burst of overconfidence and hard pushing ideas without much nuance, seeming like he just picked a place to push and went for it, followed by not really seeming to bring that energy of caring about solving the game to anything else, is pretty scummy

i would expect if that's just How He Is as town, he would be fighting to get people to see things the way he does and pushing his ideas more proactively into the thread

ik he was vla for a couple days in there but outside of that as well

[fireisredsir]

it's kinda annoying because i wanna look for the SK with the nightkill, but also i don't know if shea was killed because SK thought shea was gonna push them to die, because they thought shea was scum and wanted to start getting rid of mafia, or because they got cop vibes or something?

kinda curious what made you decide to post this

[fireisredsir]

do you still think there's no difference between flipping sk vs flipping maf today?

[fireisredsir]

nurse only got to post 60 so i think he should probably just read the game

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: deltabreedy

[fireisredsir]

sheep do you think there's merit to trying to find the sk first or is it better to just yeet the most likely to be scum regardless of what team they're on

[fireisredsir]

i kinda think don has a higher chance of being sk than delta does

but i think delta has a higher chance of being scum overall

[fireisredsir]

i guess i want to flip in don/delta either way but im probably more worried about the chance of sk being outside those than maf being outside those

[fireisredsir]

that said the one time i tried to find sk on forum i was pretty confident on it and i was very wrong lol so idk

[fireisredsir]

like after the shea flip i was immediately like much more concerned about the sk being someone i townread

something about the sk role just makes me think they're some evil mastermind type fooling everyone and controlling the game, not having much trouble looking like town bc they're uninformed

but that's probably an unreasonable bias and they could just be one of the normally scummy people i guess

[fireisredsir]

i think roden is town

[fireisredsir]

im still not sure i really agree with the logic of "sk must have been afraid of getting limmed by shea" though

i think it's possible that if they chose cop immune, they could have just been hunting scum, and shea is probably easier to shoot than to lim since he can be pretty loud

i agree with pretty much the rest of the post though

[fireisredsir]

hm

[fireisredsir]

maybe you could explain why you think im scum

[fireisredsir]

maybe scarface is just a really long movie

[fireisredsir]

I think it's Fire. I don't see why anyone would feel the need to defend Datisi with the ferocity that they did unless they were motivated by the need to have friends come endgame.

It was truly bizarre and now their vote is parked on me for... I guess reasons? I've not seen anything substantial to suggest why but for they disagree with my points. The fact that they aren't really looking for anything else suggests to me the very thing that they're accusing me of - an apathy towards finding scum that doesn't translate into a town-aligned mindset for me.

Read their ISO. It's a lot of jabs and remarks, without really much of substance behind what they say. Questions aren't followed up on when they're answered or not held accountable, they're picking fairly easy arguments to go for and as I say, if they were really scumhunting - their vote wouldn't be on me, someone who's inactive through V/LA for reasons that feel at best, contrived.

if i wanted to make friends with datisi as scum that would absolutely not be the way that i would do it. he's very capable of defending himself

i cared about the argument because i found your points to be scummy and i wanted to see if you would stand by them

idk how you are both saying that i have no reasons and i have apathy and also saying that my "ferocity" towards the person that i think is scum is "bizarre"

scum don't stop being scum when they go inactive

[fireisredsir]

i don't think you're taking in new information or trying to solve the game at all, you're just repeating old points and positions. i don't get any feeling that the flip of shea being scum told you anything about the game

i don't think town would have nurse as their 3rd preferred lim here

[fireisredsir]

this game takes like. 30 minutes to read, max. it's not that much of a time commitment

[fireisredsir]

They also critique my play, suggesting that 'Town!Me would be more fervent in pushing their case' (paraphrased).

Can we talk about how they end Day one by talking about me, their primary scumread, then hammer Appearance?

Nah this isn't town. Lets get this done.

yeah okay let's talk about it

what exactly is your issue with that?

[fireisredsir]

i don't think appearance is that scummy

the general wagon kinda feels like a jumping on a slight awkwardness of phrasing things that imo is nai

don and maybe shea

appearance i think some of the reasons that he was pushed over were bad and probably scummy which kinda makes me lean town but independent of that i don't particularly townread him. so.... eh

merlyn i guess i should read closer

you/sheep/datisi i wouldn't vote rn

After this you quote a few posts of Appearances but you never developed it any further than 'I think Appearance is scummy'. You point out a few things where you disagree with them but they were never really framed as scummy. You threw around the idea that they weren't solving, but weren't voting them. You would rather it were either Don or I but you never cased either of us really. Indeed, Appearance was 3rd in your list of lim targets behind Don and I.

This is why I find it weird why with some time remaining in the day, you wouldn't look to turn the wagon to a more solid scumread? Your hammer on Appearance was pretty vague, and came immediately after talking about me. To not really explore the appetite for it to any great extent feels to me like you settled for appearance because it's a lim and it's not you.

most people didn't really seem very interested in voting for the people that i was most suspicious of, and i did find appearance to be pretty scummy. there isn't really a solid convincing and accurate case that you can make on someone on like page 20 of a d1 micro (although as scum id probably be more likely to try to make one, not less). it's mostly just try to townblock and lim in the poe and hope you get it right

also, datisi had expressed intent to hammer in 12 hours and it had been like 16 hours since then

[fireisredsir]

i don't think you're taking in new information or trying to solve the game at all, you're just repeating old points and positions. i don't get any feeling that the flip of shea being scum told you anything about the game

i don't think town would have nurse as their 3rd preferred lim here

Yeah it told me Shea was scum. They also did a fairly good job at distancing from everyone bar the Merlyn/Nurse slot.

Onto not solving the game and not taking in new info - why are you voting me again?

you said that shea was one of your top townreads. him flipping scum didn't change your perception of the game at all? who are your top townreads now?

the post that you are quoting is literally taking in new info and explaining why i find it scummy

[fireisredsir]

So, safe in the knowledge that Datisi had indicated intent, why did you hammer for them?

because it was past his bedtime so he probably fell asleep without hammering and i thought we had reached the point of the day where we weren't getting much more useful out of it without a flip

[fireisredsir]

Also fire, am I being a dick by asking Nurse to catch up? I dont feel like I am

i mean kinda yeah

i think that in the time he's spent talking about how he has no time, he could have read half the game by now, and that is a little annoying, but it's a pointless argument that i don't think has anything to do with his alignment nor is continuing to fight about it likely to change what he's doing

[fireisredsir]

Also, @Fire - Do you understand how logically inconsistent it is for your vote to be on me for 'not solving the game' and yet you're now defending this behaviour from Nurse, almost refusing to play the game.

Can you rehash your argument against me again?

Additionally, I find it odd that you're not holding Datisi to account for not hammering when they said they would.

i think nurse is town and his current play is annoying but doesn't affect my read on his alignment

i don't think that datisi not hammering when he said he would is meaningful at all. if it's a point that you're interested in then you are welcome to ask him about it yourself rather than ask me ???

like if datisi is your second highest scumread and this is a significant point to you (significant enough to ask me why i didn't care about it) then why haven't you cared about it until now?

that's what i mean about not feeling like you're trying to solve the game. it seems like this thought just occurred to you as a gotcha that you could use against me. your behavior isn't consistent with a town mindset because you're not proactively using these ideas and points to try to push towards solving the game, you're just finding things to argue about

[fireisredsir]

Im still yet to see a coherent case on anyone come from you that carries any weight?

bestie same

[fireisredsir]

im ok with doing don instead

[fireisredsir]

maybe we can just do that

i think there's like some potential towniness in delta's energy here

[fireisredsir]

You explain why you dont find his third point plausible, none for his first and second which are his strongest. Especially 330 is straight up buddying levels, and nothing for that? Why would town fire be so adamsnt about chainsawing you? If he thinks the case is bad, then he could show that by pointing out the flaws instead of regurgitating your points.

this is ignoring the context of the fact that 330 is literally me pointing out the flaws in the case

here is the exact quote that i am refuting:

All you've done over the last page and a half is attempt to discredit rather than attempt to explain where it's wrong.

You've done this by feigning outrage, by appealing to the playerbase, insinuating that my line of reasoning comes from a position of attacking your character and you've failed to actually engage with anything that I said outside of the vote on you.

how exactly do you expect me to point out the flaws in this case except by quoting the posts that prove this is a misrepresentation? im not regurgitating datisi's points and i don't think you actually read the back and forth very closely if you think that's the case. my argument didn't have anything to do with datisi's points. it was that delta was misrepresenting and pushing a flawed case

[fireisredsir]

I think that my status read has been fairly consistent up until post 461, which has been to scumread him constantly, so i assume you're asking about 461. And 461 is more about fire and appearance rather than shea. See, i had little time in d1 to make a case on shea, fire and push my appearance is sk therefore no lim strategy. I wanted to reduce the number of fronts i'd be fighting essentially. My read on shea hadn't actually changed, but i wanted him to be a non factor and maybe even back me up when i would push fire. If i were to antagonize him further i feared it would be harder to get a fire wagon up and running. You might think this is nonsensical, but check my previous town games where i constantly do this.

in 700 you use 461 to claim that you were townreading shea and therefore you wouldn't have shot him lmao

[fireisredsir]

I explain in #332 and #333, for context.

and those are still misrepresentations imo but whatever i don't care to argue that rn

[fireisredsir]

UNVOTE:

[fireisredsir]

hello sorry haven't thought about this at all and may be online less than usual for a bit

i thought roden was cop who got a clear on merlyn yesterday so oops

i kinda like delta's entrance to the day. i guess it could come from scum who thinks they found the other scum but it feels towny to me

[fireisredsir]

i guess to be more specific i sort of doubt delta shot roden? the reaction makes sense i think. so that makes me think probably not maf, possibly still sk

[fireisredsir]

i kinda like delta's entrance to the day. i guess it could come from scum who thinks they found the other scum but it feels towny to me

why does this delta make you feel townie when the older days didn't

maybe because he backed off of me lmao

only town does that right??

idk it just kinda felt more like he was assessing things and solving the game rather than picking positions and forcing them

and i also sort of believe the world where it feels like he's set up to be the default lim. i don't think that necessarily implies you're scum (i don't really think you're maf, actually? so you wouldn't have been the one who shot roden i think), im pretty sure that same logic could apply to almost anyone

but it is sort of harder for me to see delta shooting roden when if he's maf he needs to be sk hunting probably? right? idk lol

[fireisredsir]

im lost in all the new posts tbh and my brain isn't really here right now ill be back again later

[fireisredsir]

ah i see. my issue is that there's a bunch of other reasons that roden could've gotten shot, many much more intuitive than "datisi got this master plan to yeet delta while also not being on his wagon". same with his thoughts on me seeing things about don. it's taking the conclusion that i'm mafia and then trying to fit all facts into that mold. and i was interested in what you thought about that @fire

i guess yeah

[fireisredsir]

So I just got here 30 minutes ago so just quick observations/comments/questions.

1) The Cop needs to be smart with posting in case they get killed—just saying, say no more.

2) The SK is either Investigation immune or one-shot bulletproof. If they're investigation immune what result does the Cop get if they target the SK? @JasonWazza

3) Were the any major highlights/interactions during this game I should know?

[countdown][/countdown]

Nurse do you know the setup

I just looked at it a little while ago.

[fireisredsir]

ok uhh

im curious if anyone else was reading into the roden confidence + readflip on merlyn or if other people legit did just think the slot was town off being unpaired

[fireisredsir]

i think i should probably reread, im pretty sure my reasons for writing off datisi early on were not great

[fireisredsir]

honestly i think like at least 50% of my reason was that he didn't seem dead inside enough to have rolled scum in a plist with a bunch of people who know him again

[fireisredsir]

merlyn did have her slightly awkward reaction to my real vote on shea

i think its slightly higher chance for scum to find that vote to be more significant

[fireisredsir]

i should stop saying scum in this setup lol, in this case i mean maf partnered with shea

[fireisredsir]

i think sheep is very not partnered with shea

[fireisredsir]

ik sheep asked at some point why im not more paranoid of him after last game and im reading more and idk

the vibe is just not the same at all

its kind of an "oh. i thought that sheep game was towny, until i eventually realized it actually looked like how scum would try to look towny (and then later flipped my read again, ignore that part). but this is what REAL towny looks like. now i know"

it doesn't feel performative at all, he isn't really interested in pushing his own towniness or how people are reading him. we also have basically had similar takes to his for most of the game, and i feel like a lot of that solving has gone on under the hood which makes it extra significant that we are mostly on the same page on things. its possible that he could be sk who just has been hunting maf and we've gone in the same directions on that?? but i still feel like he was kind of right when he said he'd play sk similar to how he played scum last game

i dunno

i think if i were scum this game i would 100% use that last game to build up a fun trajectory and interactions of being paranoid and unsure and all that bc it's good content and it would be expected, but i just. don't really feel it at all

[fireisredsir]

Votecount 1.5

Appearance (E-1) - sheepsaysmeep, Thestatusquo, Black, Merlyn
Thestatusquo (2) - fireisredsir, Donempire
Merlyn (2) - Datisi, Roden
fireisredsir (1) - Appearance

Not voting (0) -

(expired on 2023-07-05 18:05:27) remain until day end

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to reach a majority.

Moderators note: This is a friendly reminder not to mention ongoing games, that said no warning will be issued at this time for this as i believe the game being referenced isn't ongoing (the title just hasn't been accurately updated)

i thought it was mildly unaligning that black and merlyn both felt like they kinda followed shea right away

but either shea's maf partner followed him onto appearance pretty shortly after (or he followed sheep very shortly ig, that seems least likely to me)

or it's datisi

[fireisredsir]

i feel like datisi and shea would have both had more fun this game if they were maf together

is that an awful reason

it is but i kinda believe it

[fireisredsir]

was legit about to say "sheep ik you're awake come talk to me" lol

[fireisredsir]

oh yea i forgot you're vla

well same tbh

[fireisredsir]

what do you think about delta lately

[fireisredsir]

that wasn't very convincing at all tbh

which somewhat ironically still makes me think you're probably town lol since you're not really trying to convince me of anything or support your position despite, if you are scum, me basically just telling you that you successfully have me pocketed

[fireisredsir]

i have played a lot of games with scum datisi and i felt pretty good about the early game but ive also felt a little nervous since the shea shot

but idk on my current reread im still not sure that im seeing it. the d1 feels pretty towny to me

[fireisredsir]

i think shea is pretty good at faking emotion and stuff like that with partners

honestly if w/w with datisi id expect more of that than there is, not less

[fireisredsir]

What do u think of merlyn responding to donempire push like ok let’s rhunderdome

i don't know what to think

im pretty sure i thought it was confusing/bad but towny at the time

[fireisredsir]

i also... don't really think shea would care about his appearance push being thwarted so im not sure about that take

appearance can and will get pushed by others easily

[fireisredsir]

I think datisi might be scum.

Why not vote here? I'm down for a Datisi wagon but I can't help but worry that 176 might apply here...

This is actually super slimy. Or at least you're completely misunderstanding me, whether thats intentional or not I don't know.

I think that it should be pretty clear that "I think x might be scum" is not "subtly framing things with words to create a narrative on someone" I am literally expressing a read here.

Like I don't see how black actually sees my comment about how the way you describes things can shape narratives and think "this applies to someone expressing a read concretely."

They're so clearly not the same thing that its a ridiculous comment on face.

that said my immediate read of this is possibly anti-partnery

despite being a similar thing lol

maybe the distinction is arbitrary and im just vibe reading here idk

[fireisredsir]

i think maybe it's that the datisi one feels more towards the thread and has like a "wahhh this is so unfair datisi is being mean" vibe whereas the one to black is more personally directed and has a "no sit down shut up don't talk to me" vibe

which the first feels more like something he could do with a partner while the second sounds more like talking to a villager

[fireisredsir]

how closely did you read the mini normal you modded

[fireisredsir]

this has high potential to be the worst game ive played in years

it could well be like fire mafia and ive just hard wolfsided

i was just confused how you went from this to that so quickly

i don't think ive done anything i couldn't do as scum here

[fireisredsir]

I think your mindset seemed different enough from what I felt your towngame was like that I felt like I could sort of read you

idk how to describe

more calculated more making cases type of player eh

thats probably accurate although i think it depends on the situation

[fireisredsir]

okay fair enough i guess

my brain's shutting down gn

i think this is probably solvable

[fireisredsir]

I also just did the random nurse ISO and I think it is just fairly wolfy

i think that's where im leaning rn yea

[fireisredsir]

oh sorry im around. hey there's posts now

one sec ill read them more closely

[fireisredsir]

I really ought to self-hammer to punish this Town, for refusing to listen and work with me, but then that would be going against my win condition.

This particular Town *does* deserve to lose, though.

i don't think this stance makes any sense at all

[fireisredsir]

I am fairly locked into this vote I think

just assessing everyone's approaches to the game, I think that this is just a

correct

lim today. from a very mechanical way of looking at the game

nurse play is lacking in too many expected aspects like engaging / conversing / reflecting

this notion of "this is correct" makes me extremely nervous ngl

[fireisredsir]

im very bad with words

basically my gut alone views datisi/delta/nurse with like 66/66/66 of being scum but I think from an objective point: if merlyn-nurse is town it's like welp I dont think it was findable and if nurse is scum and we dont beat him I very much need to be blaming myself

I think the other two slots have simply both looked vaguely villagery enough to support this

i guess this is right but aaaahhh

it's leaning too far into "i wouldn't feel bad about this flipping town" territory and i think in my past experience whenever it gets to that point it ends up being the wrong move

but also literally every time i can't bring myself to do anything else bc like you say. what if he really is just obvscum who decided he didn't want to try

[fireisredsir]

actually wait there was once i think. looker in frenemies i almost talked myself out of bc they were barely trying

[fireisredsir]

i dunno im probably just gonna vote nurse but i don't want to do it right now

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: nurse

[fireisredsir]

oh

[fireisredsir]

i was so sure datisi was sk lmao

[fireisredsir]

uhhh i think i have to reread again

but i was also pretty sure delta was maf and was specifically not sk

[fireisredsir]

[fireisredsir]

i don't really think delta shoots shea n1?

[fireisredsir]

and sheep 100% could have

[fireisredsir]

I dont struggle to produce good thoughts as wolf

funnily that was basically the early push on me last game

I just find it harder soooometimes as villager to find the motivation to type up for u guys what im thinking lmaoo like screw u all

i found this mindset (and surrounding posts) to be pretty towny but i think it could also come from sk who is genuinely solving under the hood and finding maf (and shooting both of them) but not having really any incentive or motivation to push those reads into the thread or even to defend town

[fireisredsir]

comparing that to delta just full force hardpushing who he thinks is scum (correctly apparently. whoops. sorry delta) which just really feels more like a town approach to things?

idk i kinda get the feeling that sk would be content to play the sort of game where they sit back a little and quietly solve and don't need to influence things too much

i felt like delta played like maf but i don't think he played like so? i just don't think he really needs to be so demanding in his pushes if he can just shoot people

[fireisredsir]

i guess if he chose bulletproof actually

[fireisredsir]

ah wait that actually could be a plausible reason for shooting shea n1, is if he was bulletproof and scumsiding

[fireisredsir]

i don't know, elo sucks bc i need someone to talk to and bounce ideas off in order to ever feel confident in anything and i am fully aware that in this situation that will probably end up being sheep but if he is scum then talking things through with me is probably literally his wincon since i will probably find it hard to suspect him through that

delta be active pls i would like to talk to both of you

[fireisredsir]

I don't think SK was Cop hunting, this was very likely a fear kill. Shea was basically set up to take center stage today, and I don't think it makes any sense for the SK to disrupt that unless they were afraid that a town!Shea could thrive and turn the attention back onto them.

VOTE: Sheep

Merlyn is hard cleared from being Shea's scum buddy IMO. And the Shea kills makes no sense from her position if she were SK since he was defending her all game.

don’t think it’s a kill I make there

shea is someone I would’ve tried to wagon today + I would not really have been scared of getting limmed today

I agree merlyn is town. almost never w/w with shea, the w/w theories were goofy

i don't really believe this and i kinda think town sheep would recognize that he would actually likely shoot shea there

[fireisredsir]

honestly the biggest thing im seeing on my reread is i really should have seen datisi scum sooner lol

the main reason i started suspecting him tbh was the shea shot. but looking back now i think there were a lot of things that i was overly willing to look past

although i am still really surprised him and shea both had pretty lackluster day 1s when i would expect them to be excited to scum together

maybe they were more like "oh god not again" after team mafia idk

[fireisredsir]

i feel like hunting is suddenly so much easier now that there isn't that weird ambiguous vagueness of "ehh they kinda could be sk or they kinda could be maf so they're probably scum" when looking at slots

like knowing exactly what you're looking for makes reading back so much clearer

we should have done this sooner. who knew killing maf would be such a good idea

[fireisredsir]

okay well i currently think it is probably sheep and i am probably a fool once again

it just. feels like it matches a lot better with their respective approaches to the game if the sk is sheep than if the sk is delta

it is admittedly possible that some amount of this is from the leftover high of my confidence on daisies being this crafty sk nudging himself into the townblock and controlling the game quietly while also staying just the right amount of suspected so that he can not get shot while also allowing him to just shoot mafia. and then seeing that theory disproven and just shuffling that read onto the next player who fits the description and is the villain mastermind that i expect sk to be

and also feeling some amount of just. knowing that i was probably expected to come into this elo pushing for delta over sheep? and that sheep has i think arguably done a lot of work over the course of the last game day or two to set up for this specific 3p? it just feels like i can see how there could easily be a plan here and how that could easily come from sk sheep

but i don't think there's any reason to rush this since we have that sudden burst of clarity from having mafia removed from the picture entirely and i only made it through part of the game so that part about sheep having done work to set this up is mostly from memory. im not sure how well it checks out yet

its late goodnight

[fireisredsir]

oh hi delta

[fireisredsir]

hmm okay

that is a little surprising to me honestly, can you elaborate on your thought process?

[fireisredsir]

my phone autocorrects datisi to daisies lmao

you'd think it would have learned the word by now

[fireisredsir]

Vibes.

They're non-committal, #605 feels fishy and the whole 'I don't see it' RE: Datisi!Scum from like idk #985 or so onwards feels like deflection from the upcoming kill.

looking back at eod yesterday the whole "this is the correct lim" and accelerating the push near the end of the day does sort of feel like in the game i just played with him where he kinda ramped up onto aureal when she was flailing and punishing her for that

but also i don't really see why he's motivated to do that here? he shouldn't really care who gets limmed between nurse and delta i would think

[fireisredsir]

i guess if he thinks he can more easily push delta as sk than nurse

id think he'd want to keep nurse alive tho since he would probably just instant vote town in elo

[fireisredsir]

idk brain mushy

[fireisredsir]

that uh scares me tbh? i don't see why you wouldn't even want to give him a chance to talk

[fireisredsir]

i feel like your goal with those posts is to make an appeal to me and that is kinda what i expect sk to do here bc i kinda expect to be the swing voter

i think it's probably sheep but that sets off alarm bells for me idk

[fireisredsir]

i think you're probably right im just nervous

but making sure he doesn't have time to talk things down is a good point

VOTE: sheep

[fireisredsir]

gg!!! that was fun

[fireisredsir]

i really wanted to play elo with sheep since like the end of d1 and he didn't even get to post :<

but ill take it

[fireisredsir]

i honestly did think datisi was town and you were scum at the time

[fireisredsir]

i appreciate how plentiful the vcs were in this game ty jason