Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, who is the third scumbag?

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork
Minor attack on Flameaxe, called inHim Fritz protown
Not feeling UT wagon
vote on Ecto
Fritz, CES, inHim solidly protown
liked CTD
more aggressive defense of UT

As far as not feeling the UT wagon, it is extremely lazy. A bit more lazy than I'd expect from this group of players, once we got out of the random bullshit stage. I have some minor misgivings about UT's behavior since garnering some pressure (in particular, I think CTD's "UT has clammed up" comment is right on the money), but it's not enough to convince me that he needs dead. If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block, with a possible token pile-on at the end of the wagon.

Surprisingly aggressive defense of a townie.
Went after MBL mid-aggressively for coaching Ecto to play better
calls Ythill and inhim protown
Right before deadline, Glork goes aggressively after MBL, setting him up for a possible vig if Ecto comes up town.
Calls DGB protown
Before Ecto claims, tries to keep the wagon on him alive
calls Shanba possible scum
continues to try to set MBL up as scum if Ecto comes up town, hops off Ecto wagon
start of D2, suspects Shanba, Yos, Huck

I'm pretty sure that one of the prior alternate wagons {MBL, inHim, Yos} was scum.

Switches to Shanba.

I still don't think CES is all that likely to be scum. He's not acting like the complete obvtownCES that I saw yesterday, but my D1 read of him trumps what little questionalbe content I have seen.

I would also prefer a Shanba lynch over a UT/CDB lynch, because (and this may sound stupid because of its metagaming nature) I think UT would have stayed around and kept superlurking if he were scum, rather than replacing out. Shanba fits the bill of Lurkerscum much more than UT/CDB.

DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today.

Ether!!

Shanba is definitely scum. You should definitely sheep me. He definitely needs lynched today.

Unvote
Vote: ChannelDelibird

Wagon go go go go go.

Attacks Shanba for defending CDB. REALLY wants Shanba dead instead of CDB.

Either Shanba is trying to earn superduperbrowniepoints by going "see, ITY he wasn't scum" when CDB does die, or he's trying to make sure that the wagon doesn't actually build (at least, not before CDB has a chance to actually participate in the game).

Shanbawagon wasn't going anywhere. I'm willing to put the cart before the horse in this case, if absolutely necessary. I would still strongly prefer a Shanbalynch over a CDBlynch, though.

No objection if I vig CES, then?

Nah, CES is probably town.

I like Gurgi's posting (and not just because he thinks I'm town).

I'm becoming less interested in a CDB lynch. It is more stagnant than the push against Shanba was. That said, he makes a reasonable vig/investigation target.

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian2

One of {Yos/Shanba} needs to be lynched today. The other needs to be vigged. There is no in-between, and I probably won't be moving my vote off of these two players.

(note: completely abandons inclusion of CDB as a lynch target)

[MrBuddyLee]

Every player Glork went after aggressively D1/D2 was town.

Clearly, he made a conscious decision to go against his meta in this game. He didn't bus aggressively.

How do you all see Glork's behavior towards CDB as fitting into that decision of his?

[MrBuddyLee]

Why did Glork absolutely freak out here:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2686869

Also note, Glork made odd reference to why his play makes no sense if he and CDB are scum together:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2687904

[MrBuddyLee]

The question is, how sure are you that one of Poro/CDB is scum? I'm pretty sure. Not positive, but probably willing to risk it. The alternative is that we lynch a second tier suspect (CES, Gurgi, MBL, Ether, Zorblag).

If we allow CDB to vote Poro and there's no quicklynch by scum, then we've narrowed our decision for today to those two.

[MrBuddyLee]

That's fine, so who would you propose as the alternative to lynching one of those two?

[MrBuddyLee]

Porochaz, which two players would you most like to see lynched and why?

[MrBuddyLee]

The one that you did your best to fuck up by having Shanba out himself as vanilla first?

Please explain how it was better to no-lynch quickly than to have Shanba give us his full suspicions. Even if Shanba had claimed/softclaimed vanilla, how would that have affected the day/night's events negatively?

[MrBuddyLee]

So you thought Gurgi or myself was a power role, and you wanted to make sure Shanba died instead, and fast.

Except you thought I was scum. So you weren't worried about me having a role.

You were so confident that Gurgi was a power role, that you thought it was more important to kill Shanba off fast in hopes that Gurgi was a roled player.

What made you so confident that Gurgi was roled?

Personally, I think you're full of shit. Also, you haven't made a case on me. Mush.

[MrBuddyLee]

You've made sure it's impossible to get anything useful out of you.

Also, this is horseshit. You're a propagandist.

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, I read some of your previous play as town and as scum yesterday. Those games don't read anything like this game. You actually made cases in those games, both as town and as scum. In this game, you just pester and nag and try to look good, as opposed to not so much caring how you look while you try to lay out details of cases. Which you did in the other games, except in those you actually listed evidence pro/con about other players and made nuanced cases.

Also, I didn't see obvious evidence of an Ethertown meta or of an Etherscum meta. You played fairly similar on both sides. You sounded competent, unlike in this game.

[MrBuddyLee]

That said Ether is doing a

great

job of making MBL look really scummy.

So what's your reasoning for MBL being scum. Extra points if you use your own analysis!

CTD: I still don't grasp how you can think MBL is scum. Like, even remotely so.

And Gurgi to detail The Saga of What He Thinks of MBL.

Huck, you, and MBL is inching his way down there.

Hi, Gurgi. What the hell are you doing? (I'm also surprised that I'm the one calling you out on this instead of MBL, heh.)

Sigh.

MBL is inching his way down there.

Why, because Ether says so? I don't think my play's changed since D1/D2, so I'm fascinated to find out why you're suddenly finding me scummy.

Ether, take a deep breath, close your eyes, do some yoga, and for a brief moment in time imagine a world in which MBL is NOT scum.

Who are your top two scum candidates in that world?

[MrBuddyLee]

Do we need any more claims or can we get to the lynching stage?

Everyone's claimed. Who do you want lynched and why?

[MrBuddyLee]

Zorblag, if you're scum, you're the kind of scum I like to play against. Please post more.

[MrBuddyLee]

Delibird, your thoughts?

[MrBuddyLee]

random vote phase
UT on Glork
chamber, Porochaz on CDB
CES on Glork
Gurgi, Ether on chamber

D1
Flameaxe, chamber, CES, Glork on CDB

D2/D3
Gurgi-chamber
chamber-CDB
ChannelDelibird (6) -- DrippingGoofball, Glork, chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum, Ythill, Ether

post-counterclaim (ignoring this for subsequent analysis--one or more scum HAD to bus Glork, so they abandoned their no-bus strategy here):
CDB, Porochaz, CES, Gurgi, MBL--Glork
Glork--CES
Ether-Porochaz
chamber-Porochaz

D4/5
Ether-MBL
Everyone else was on Huck

D6 (not taking this into account yet in subsequent analyses)
CES-CDB
CDB-Poro

CDB-CES-Poro

CES voted CDB(UT) D1

Glork protected CES from vig

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

CDB-CES-Gurgi

CES voted CDB(UT) D1

Glork protected CES from vig

Gurgi protected CDB

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

CDB-CES-Zorblag

CES voted CDB(UT) D1
chamber voted CDB a lot

Glork protected CES from vig

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

CDB-Poro-Zorblag

chamber voted CDB a lot
chamber pushed Porochaz as a Glork alternative

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

CDB-Poro-Gurgi

Flameaxe was on D1 CDB(UT) wagon

Gurgi protected CDB

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

CDB-Zorblag-Gurgi

Gurgi voted chamber a lot
chamber voted CDB a lot

Gurgi protected CDB

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

CES-Poro-Zorblag

chamber pushed Porochaz as a Glork alternative

Glork protected CES from vig

CES-Poro-Gurgi

*** never voted each other ***

Glork protected CES from vig

CES-Zorblag-Gurgi

Gurgi voted chamber a lot

Glork protected CES from vig

Poro-Zorblag-Gurgi

Gurgi voted chamber a lot
chamber pushed Porochaz as a Glork alternative

CDB-CES-Ether

CES voted CDB(UT) D1

Ether protected Glork

Glork protected CES from vig

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

Ether protected CDB, CDB protected Ether

CDB-Poro-Ether

Flameaxe was on D1 CDB(UT) wagon
Ether pushed Poro as Glork alternative

Ether protected Glork

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

Ether protected CDB, CDB protected Ether

CDB-Gurgi-Ether

*** never voted each other, protected each other (Ether and Gurgi (and Glork) protected CDB) ***

Ether protected Glork

Gurgi protected CDB

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

Ether protected CDB, CDB protected Ether

CDB-Zorblag-Ether

chamber pushed CDB a lot

Ether protected Glork

Glork pushed Shanba over CDB, defended CDB

Ether protected CDB, CDB protected Ether

CES-Poro-Ether

Ether pushed Poro as Glork alternative

Ether protected Glork

Glork protected CES from vig

CES-Gurgi-Ether

*** never voted each other ***

Ether protected Glork

Glork protected CES from vig

CES-Zorblag-Ether

*** never voted each other, Ether cast mild aspersions upon both but never voted ***

Ether protected Glork

Glork protected CES from vig

Poro-Gurgi-Ether

Ether pushed Poro as Glork alternative

Ether protected Glork

Poro-Zorblag-Ether

Ether pushed Poro as Glork alternative

Ether protected Glork

Gurgi-Zorblag-Ether

Gurgi voted chamber a lot

Ether protected Glork

Questions to touch upon:
* Was the D1 UT wagon meaningful?
* Was the D2 CDB-wagon meaningful?
* Was Glork's D2 protection of CES and CDB meaningful?
* Was Ether's protection of Glork meaningful?
* Was the push of Poro over Glork D3 meaningful?

* How much busing has there been?

Possible buses are pretty minimal:
At least one scum bused Glork when he counterclaimed, either Poro+CDB early, CES off and on, or Gurgi late.
Wagons on CDB D1/D2 (note--the same

CES-chamber-Glork-Ether

was on both CDB and Shanba D2--

chamber-CES-Glork

were all on UT(CDB) D1 with

stark(Ether)

locked on Ecto all day)
chamber on CDB forever
Gurgi on chamber forever
Ether on Porochaz inconsistently (says due to Huck investigation)

[MrBuddyLee]

Who do you want lynched and why?

Channel/Prozac. I've already said why.

You have? I just read back through December 17th and couldn't find a hint of a case you've made against either. Please indulge me by emptyquoting your old cases/arguments for those two being scum.

I just read that stretch of your posts again. You never made any kind of case on either or stated any facts in support of your belief that they're scum. Not one.

This time, you're not wagoning. Please make your cases, or point us to the previous cases you claim you've made on those two.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether due to failing to be right about anything

and a toss up between CES and CDB, CDB for mainly the same reasons as me. (Except in my view worse) and CES for the

lynch happiness

but when I think back,

what has he actually done this game?

1) Can you please give me some specific examples of living players (Gurgi, CES, CDB, Zorblag, MBL) who have been right about stuff this game?

2) Can you please compare CES's play to Zorblag's, Ether's and Gurgi's and let me know why you think CES has done less this game than those three?

3) Can you please explain CES's "lynch-happiness" and why, specifically, you have a problem with it?

[MrBuddyLee]

So you thought Gurgi or myself was a power role, and you wanted to make sure Shanba died instead, and fast.

Except you thought I was scum. So you weren't worried about me having a role.

You were so confident that Gurgi was a power role, that you thought it was more important to kill Shanba off fast in hopes that Gurgi was a roled player.

What made you so confident that Gurgi was roled?

Also, you haven't made a case on me. Mush.

[MrBuddyLee]

Zorblag:

I don't think Prozac is town.

But other people are much scummier yet.

Re: CDB. I've always had the same problem with his lynch that it's been primarily a lurker lynch, and I feel like lurker lynches are really easy for anyone to get onto without thinking too hard about it. I still think that about the CDB lynch, but

it's a better lynch than Prozac.

I still don't like the CES or Prozac lynch

too much

Please clearly explain your positions on Prozac, CES and CDB.

[MrBuddyLee]

Zorblag, check out the action between DGB and Glork on day two. Glork was defending CDB a bit while going after Shanba. DGB attacked Glork for protecting CDB. Glork briefly went after CDB halfheartedly and made excuses to switch back to Shanba. Glork pushed vigs of Shanba and Yos over a CDB or CES vig when DGB asked him.

The idea of being tied to CDB seemed to freak Glork out, and he seemed to fear CDB getting lynched/vigged and himself looking bad by association. I am not certain about that.

I'm not sure I see the motivation for Glork to protect a townie there, unless it's a great headfake. Kind of fits into the whole "town went after 4 townies D1, so let's not bus each other D2" mentality.

Let me know what you think.

[MrBuddyLee]

If CDB's town, it's game over unless both Poro and CES are scum, right? But after the way CDB quickvoted Porochaz without worrying about the implications, plus all other considerations D1/D2 especially, his township's seriously in question.

Let's look at what the dead have to say:

CrashTextDummie wanted CDB lynched every.single.day.

Ythill was incorrect about HH/MBL but thought the last two were Prozac and CDB/chamber

Yos was null on CDB

Huck said 2 out of (CDB,CES,Poro) are scum and listed CDB as third scummiest player

DGB was on fire about CES, Glork and CDB and was killed for threatening to vig them

:

Also, I'd like to see some rich, dark, chocolatey scum hunting from Glork. He's scoring high on the scumputer, I expect more from him.

UT/CDB player slot is nearly confirmed scum by the shameless lurking and wagoning, at this point. Post #858 is seven different kinds of bad.

I'm so enamored with InHim, that I'm willing to jump the gun and sun the scumputer with him pegged as town.

SCUMPUTER 2.1

140 Glork

133 CES

115 chamber

93 UT/CDB

78 Flameaxe/Poro

SCUMPUTER 2.1.1

Just for fun, this one includes HH & CTD as townies.

193 CES
150 Glork
130 chamber
110 UT/CDB
100 Flameaxe/Poro

Also, I have a town read on chamber, despite his high scumputer ranking. He's super in-our-faces and constantly pushing the envelope and needling me, I may be wrong, but I expect scum to react more like CES.

DGB's analysis is tl;dr for me.

Cliff Notes:

You're scum and CES is your buddy.

@ Glork

Are you always

THIS MUCH

of a bandwagon enthusiast?

After I take care of CES (the time for players to register their protests is NOW), you're next down the scumputer list.

I might actually have to check out some old games of yours.

Don't give me that stagnation bizniss, Glorkster. You say we should waste an investigation him????

WUT

!!! HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND??? Waste an investigation on a useless lurker??? Why not a

VIG SHOT

?????????????????? An

investigation

???????? Instead of a vig shot??????? Are you drunk? High? Passed out? Are you hoping some idiot player is going to investigate CDB who has contributed nothing while maybe I also vig him???????????? Are you CDB's buddy???
</blink>

If CDB fails to show up with the necessary fakeclaim, he'll be considered "given up scum" and will be lynched without further ceremony or gnashing of teeth. If you're sentimental, look away.

-OR-

If for some reason we're not lynching CDB...

We're lynching

Glork

.

ONE OF THESE TWO IS SCUM. MAYBE BOTH. We lynch one, I vig the other.

Which reminds me: DGBEEEE. What do you make of flameaxe/prozac?

I wish I had a nuclear warhead.

CES hasn't done anything significant in a while, he's lurking in plain sight.

He should speak out now, he might not be here tomorrow morning.

Oh, are you officially claiming vig now? I thought you were still just messing around.

That would be one epic messing around, drawing the scum roleblock (if available) and the NK, while letting the real vig do his work unimpeded! I can just imagine the dismay in the QT, "

oh krap, DGB was just a plain old vanilla townie messing with us! Dammit!!! How come the real vig shot one of us in the meantime! How did DGB figure out the real vig would

know

that she's messing around???

"

I'm probably one of the few people that could pull a gambit like that off, because everyone knows I love a good gambit, and the real vig would know that, too.

This being said, I knew that when I chose to shoot Fritzler, I was totally outing myself.

I've read up to page 51. 1184 was mucho convincing.

Unvote, vote: Yos

You realize that you die tonight, no matter what?

Re:

CES

Textbook: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=950

Note that in this game, CES didn't receive a single vote (certainly not one that I noticed).

He was scum.

No one ever voted him.

So, everyone, please consider this before you declare CES to be town.

Ask yourself, is it the lack of opinions that is "townie," or the shameless bandwagoning on successful wagons?

Also, in case there is a quicklynch, CES is scum. Please remember that and kill him good and dead.

CES

CES is scum

dammit

unvote

Let's get everyone fully on the record here.

I want a CES lynch. When he flips scum, you will all adore me.

I tend to think all 3 are town too.

You should know, thanks for the info, we should lynch you now.

CDB is still scum, too.

CES has made NO EFFORT to convince ME that he's town.

That's because him & his team of mafia henchmen can NK me, or roleblock me.

He's un-phased.

Can we kill him? I'd really like to see him lynch, so I can taste triumph.

Am I intrigued by the prospect of a Glork lynch. Count me in as officially interested.

/salute DGB

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm not sure why I didn't use Glork's alignment, actually. Who was the one that was constantly worrying about a Glork-MBL scumteam?

Ether suspects/suspected Glork-MBL. Have you really not gone over Glork's D1 play to see if Glork-MBL even makes sense as a scumpair? He made a clear attempt to get me lynched/vigged D1, and laid the groundwork for a 1-2 punch if/when Ecto came up town.

I really dislike the quoth the dead thing MBL has going on here. There's no reason why the dead should be right, and they should probably be less right. Most of those dead were killed by the town, too. What are you trying to accomplish here except get voices to agree with you?

1) There's no reason why the dead's individual observations and gut should be any less valid.. they just had less information to work with. Picking out the best evidence brought up by dead townies is a solid way to help narrow down who the scum might be. Shanba had a solid town read on Ether.. are we supposed to ignore that since he's dead and lynched HackerHuck? Ythill said "CTD, Shanba, Ether and Gurgi are town, sheep them" or something like that. It's worth following his logic to see if he made points that can help us.

2) DGB was fairly obviously killed because she was right. DGB had at least 2 scum in the top 5 of her scumputer. If neither you nor Ether are scum, DGB had

ALL FOUR SCUM

in her scumputer top 5. It's stunning that you'd say "don't look closer at why DGB thought these people were scum".

[MrBuddyLee]

The problem with citing the dead is that they can't disagree anymore, or change their opinions in light of new information. This guy who died and is town agreed with me, so we must be right. Townies (sadly) are not in their nature more likely to be correct. If you don't believe that new information helps improve your chances of being right, I don't know what to say. If you do, then you should agree that the dead are fundamentally less likely to be right than the living. I could understand if you had gone with DGB's arguments primarily, but you decided to wide-net this one. I don't like it.

Let's look at what the dead have to say:

CrashTextDummie wanted CDB lynched every.single.day.

Ythill was incorrect about HH/MBL but thought the last two were Prozac and CDB/chamber

Yos was null on CDB

Huck said 2 out of (CDB,CES,Poro) are scum and listed CDB as third scummiest player

DGB was on fire about CES, Glork and CDB and was killed for threatening to vig them

Are you seriously telling me CTD and Huck would have significantly different opinions now than they had when they died? Or Shanba?

By the way, Shanba suspected Prozac most and was meh on CDB. I really wanted to see if his opinion shifted after the Huck lynch, but you guys botched it. Here were his last thoughts:

I'm actually somewhat disturbed by my company on the (Huck)wagon, if I'm totally honest. The three people I trust most are not on the wagon. As such I'm seriously considering swapping over to prozac...

HackerHuck (5) -- Cogito Ergo Sum, ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi, Shanba, Zorblag
ChannelDelibird (2) -- CrashTextDummie, MrBuddyLee
Porochaz (1) -- HackerHuck
MrBuddyLee (1) -- Ether

Not voting: Porochaz

Pretty sure that means Shanba trusted me, CTD and Ether most. I'm pretty sure his suspicions were ordered Poro->CES->CDB/chamber->Gurgi. His vote should count for something, to be honest, especially considering at least two scum voted to quick-lynch so Shanba'd be silenced for good.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether's in prod range. I look forward to her answering my questions--I particularly want to hear why she was so sure Gurgi was roled that she had to kill Shanba before he could speak. I also want to see her case on me--whatever amazing case it is that she switched off "obvscum" Porochaz and wasn't voting Huck for most of the day even though she'd "suspected" him for days.

[MrBuddyLee]

Porochaz:

"How is your play as scum different from your play in this game?"

[MrBuddyLee]

* CES claimed vanilla
* Gurgi did not hint at a role
* Ether wanted Shanba NKed before he had a chance to post that he might be vanilla, because she thought there was a town role still out
* Ether obviously thought CES or Gurgi had a role

Possible conclusions:
1) There was some post by Gurgi that made Ether positive he had a role
2) CES is scum with a role, and Ether screwed up by telling us she's waiting for him to give results today

Ether, you're playing to your scum meta. You've been prodded. Please reply.

[MrBuddyLee]

Zorblag,

assuming that I think that Cogito Ergo Sum and ChannelDelibird are unlikely to be partners (and at this point I do think that's unlikely)

Why is this scumpair unlikely?

[MrBuddyLee]

If Flameaxe(Porochaz) is town, this was the first person to spot Glork as possible scum. If Flameaxe is scum, this http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2645950 was a pretty sloppy post clearing a bunch of townies (

Yos

,

Mert

,

Shanba

,

Gurgi

,

MBL

,

Ecto

,

stark

) and pointing to CES, UT(CDB), HackerHuck and his scumpartner Glork as scum.

7) Glork
-I like some parts, indifferent about others here. His catchup post seems fine on paper, but I'm getting a

weird gut

read about it. Can't really explain it. I'm going to try to work on finding words to explain it. I'm liking his posts since then without any

weird gut

feelings.
-Leaning town

'weird gut'

read?

So what was weird about Glork's catchup post?

Goddamn, there are way

too many people in this game who I would blindly wagon with D1

. What happens if

Yos

,

CES

, and

Fritz

all tell me to vote for different people? Does the world explode?

Mert is protown

. First use of "to be honest" is p much always protown.

Put THAT in your secret tell pipe and smoke it.



I will freely admit, I'm having a hard time generating reads right now, probably due to the nature of the playerlist. I'd say something sappy and mostly full of shit like "I just love you all too much to lynch," but that's entirely untrue. I like lynching you motherfuckers.


The biggest thing I'm getting is that

I don't like Flameaxe

's "I agree with CTD" post. I think CTD is stretching a little bit, and flat agreement makes me groan.
That, and I'm seeing nothing but

Vintage Protown Fritzler

. Dude needs doc protected like every night from here until eternity. Oh, and

inHim looks protown

, too. I like the "we have good info if CTD is scum" post.

@Flameaxe

: Eh, I think you have good points against UT as UT continued to poorly defend himself. I'm still not sold on your initial attack, though, and

feel you could be scum that lucked out with poor responses

, because

I think UT is town that got frustrated when he was misnterpreted

.
---
With

Ecto

's line of reasoning, I can follow him and can see the merits from his perspective.

Ythill

's attack on him is

pro-town in execution and probably even on principle

, but he's not stepping into Ecto's gameview; Ecto's "Wiki 101" criticism was harsh, but not necessarily unfounded.

I am not in favor of a starkwagon

.

Fritzler

is returning to good form. :coo:

:glorksignal:

GODDAMN, YOU ARE ONE PROTOWN SONOFABEEYTOCH.

I like Ythill's posting

... namely, his town/null/scum categorization. I don't agree with all of it, but I like that he put it out there. I don't like his interaction with CTD, though, as I also have been fine with

CTD

's level of scumhunting.

I'm not feeling the UT wagon

.

I would like to see more pressure on Ecto, especially in light of MBL's post

(*cringe*).

Unvote, Vote: Ecto

Aaaaand

UT

's vote on

Fritzler

is :badposting:. OMGUS to the max.
EDIT: And

Fritz

pointed this out.
EDITEDIT: And

inHim

pointed out

Fritz

's pointing this out.


All things considered, I'm

on the fence re: UT

.
I like

MBL

's questioning of Ecto.

Fritz

,

CES

, and

inHim

are looking solidly protown.

Vote stays on

Ecto

for now, but I would probably be willing to coax a claim out of

UT

.

Summary:
* Glork liked that inHim was cutting UT(CDB slack) and attacking Flameaxe (but Glork also said UT's Fritz vote was terrible)
* Glork encouraged MBL to go after Ecto (but lauded inHim's defense of Ecto)
* Glork gave townie points to

Yos, inHim, Mert(jokingly), Fritzler, Ythill, CTD, MBL

,

CES

Why did Glork vote Ecto despite finding Flameaxe's post the worst thing he'd seen?
Did Glork really clear 8 townies in one post, or is CES scum?
What did Flameaxe find "weird gut"?

Subsequent comments from Glork:

As far as not feeling the UT wagon, it is extremely lazy. A bit more lazy than I'd expect from this group of players, once we got out of the random bullshit stage. I have some minor misgivings about UT's behavior since garnering some pressure (in particular, I think CTD's "UT has clammed up" comment is right on the money), but it's not enough to convince me that he needs dead. If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block, with a possible token pile-on at the end of the wagon.

and this was Glork's next comment on Flameaxe/Porochaz,

Porochaz is a better kill than CES. CES is pretty easy to figure out once you make him post (and I'm still leaning slightly protown on him anyway).

Yos is guaranteed scum. Porochaz is only decently likely to be scum.

CDB and Porochaz are still decent scum candidates

Ugh, I don't really see what Flameaxe saw as "weird gut" about Glork. Glork didn't talk about possible scumpartners Ether, Gurgi or chamber at all, so it's unlikely Flameaxe was referring to the absence of two of them from the post. Glork defended CES as obvTown, put CDB(UT) in his middle category but shirked the wagon, and listed Flameaxe as most sketchy but didn't vote him, and didn't comment on him for another month. If Flameaxe is Glork's scumpartner, the best I can come up with is that Flameaxe was commenting on Glork's approach towards scumpartner UT as weird? Weird gut could also come from seeing scumpartner CES in the obvTown category. Or it could be sloppy, overreactive distancing in response to Glork's weak Flameaxe attack.

Or, Flameaxe was town and just has a really good gut and likely nailed 2-3 scum in his initial read ("CES, UT(CDB), HackerHuck and his scumpartner Glork").

I'm tempted to conclude his gut's not THAT good, and that he's probably scum with Glork and got a little freaked at the weak bus and overreacted, calling out Glork as a town "weird gut" read. (That was Flameaxe's only invocation of "gut" in this game besides an "odd vibes" about inHim.)

[MrBuddyLee]

CDB said two posts were tl;dr for him and kept him from reading on. Let's take a look:

DGB's analysis is tl;dr for me. tl;dr is also the main reason why I keep putting off serious rereads.

I got stuck at page 41 when CTD posted a huge tl;dr.

Wading back in now.

Here's the relevant part of CTD's "tl;dr":

I'm getting annoyed with people who treat suspicion of CDB as just "lurkerhunting" (Lord Gurgi, I'm looking at you). Reasons to suspect CDB:

UT reacted badly to getting accused (this is the whole joke/no joke business, which in the context of his posts is

not

null or even town), tried to substantiate his bandwagon vote on me by retroactively outfitting it with terrible reasoning, did

zero

scumhunting, clammed up ultra-tightly once he came under pressure, came back with a weak, lazy vote and ultimately selectively replaced out of the game. His predecessor CDB has contributed a pretty insubstantial initial analysis and his vote to the Mert-wagon and

nothing else

in the 2+ weeks he's been here. Scumhunting effort = zero. Even if for some reason you don't find any of this the least bit suspicious, I can't believe you are completely okay with letting him slide like this. Lord knows most wagons that have been actively pursued in this game so far have been worse than your typical lurker wagon.

And here are snippets of DGB's 's "tl;dr":

SCUMPUTER 2.1.1

193 CES
150 Glork
130 chamber
110 UT/CDB
100 Flameaxe/Poro

NOTE: Finally, Fabio found his cojones. Given that Glork looked opportunistic before, and CES already pinged, I'm disappointed with your InHim vote.

NOTE: Glork & CES are pining again. The Inhim vote is even more worrisome.

NOTE: Here, Glork pings your scumdar, so ONCE AGAIN your InHim vote is a bee in my bonnet.

NOTE: ONCE AGAIN, CES pings the scumdar. You're picking up CES all over the place. And Glork. On both of these points, we agree. I'm worried about you, Ythill. I need some intense re-assuring to peg you as town. Wanna revise your analysis perhaps? Were you tired when you made it?[/b]

Also, I'd like to see some rich, dark, chocolatey scum hunting from Glork. He's scoring high on the scumputer, I expect more from him.

UT/CDB player slot is nearly confirmed scum by the shameless lurking and wagoning, at this point. Post #858 is seven different kinds of bad.

Glorky!

We need to prioritize.
We've got CES-scum to kill.
Also, Mr. UT/CDB, the token lurkerscum.
And Shanba has got to die.

Glork has 7 days to deliver that rich, dark, chocolatey analysis. If he fails, he will need to die.
But CES needs to die real bad.

@CDB

I see you active elsewhere on the site, get your ass in here.

Being scum leaves him speechless.

Finally, DGB comments on CDB's "tl;dr" excuses:

DGB's analysis is tl;dr for me.

Cliff Notes:

You're scum and CES is your buddy.

Also relevant in that stretch:

Why aren't more people voting CDB? This is like textbook CDB scum.

CES defying DGB's bandwagon analysis feels like insulted scum.

Thank you! I think so, too.

I don't see the Shanba lynch. CES lynch seems like a meta lynch. I don't see him as less likely to do what he has as town.

(Huck's suspect list is: stark, chamber, Glork, Shanba, Gurgi)

@CDB

I see you active elsewhere on the site, get your ass in here.

Read page 10, HH, stark is just town. There's a particular way he acts when he's scum in terms of his niceness, but this is town niceness. I don't really have a terribly good way to explain it. It's not the authenticity, he's just a nice guy, but there's something about the way that he's congenial about scumhunting that is town.

I'll give you the cliffnotes:
CDB is still scum.
Porochaz's entry into the game was underwhelming, but the case against him is probably not strong enough to maintain my vote.
Glork remains highly suspect.
Disliked chamber's refusal to hammer Mert.

VOTE: CES seems appropriate.

(chamber posts that 5 people have suspected inHim today, 5 CDB, 4.5 Yos, 4 Shanba, 3 CES, 2.5 Glork, etc. and recommends that people wagon.)

mafia = cdb, yos, inhim, shanba

I'm intrigued by Glork's Shanbavote even though I don't want to sheep on him on principle because he's a bum.

Porochaz (1) -- CrashTextDummie
Yosarian2 (2) -- Cogito Ergo Sum, Shanba
inHimshallibe (3) -- Lord Gurgi, chamber, ChannelDelibird
chamber (1) -- Yosarian2
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) -- DrippingGoofball, Ythill
Ythill (1) -- Porochaz
Shanba (1) -- Glork
Ether (1) -- HackerHuck

Ether!!
Shanba is definitely scum. You should definitely sheep me. He definitely needs lynched today.
Don't think just gogogo!

vote: Shanba

Unvote, vote: Shanba

The Shanba wagon is based exclusively on him saying he didn't find value in Mertwagon analysis. That's... not much to lynch Shabs.

MBL is town and was the only one to point out anything I found even remotely convincing Re: Ectowagon. He's said a lot of very protown things and not much that's scummy in any real capacity. Generally he will say things that are just sensible and does not single-mindedly push his own agenda. Strikes me that he actually reconsiders his lynch choices fairly regularly. Also his avatar is nice.

CTD hasn't done that much since having a crap wagon on him earlier in the day. He's not done anything exceptionally town, mind you. But he's better than Glork and CES who aren't scum either. I just don't think he's scum because of how the wagon folded out.

Vote:Shanba

I forgot to

unvote: Ether

and

vote: Shanba

in my last post.

I don't think Shanba's stance on the Mertwagon is suspicious, though I'd have to actually read the damn thing to know if I agreed. (I am still voting him.)

Tentative

unvote

.
That all sounds reasonable. How come you've gotten yourself caught up in a fight with Yosarian? (This is not a fight I want to restart. Attacker-defender spats are hella boring to read.)

Guys, CES hasn't done anything thats actually scummy this game. I think there are 3 people that are alive that I would say that about. Terrible wagon.

First order of business:
I strongly dislike the building Shanba-wagon. It feels scum-fueled to me.

CTD, please stop being terrible at this game.

Dammit. We all want this. We can kill CES later.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

I will probably endorse the CDB hate. He's V/LA, though.

Dammit. We all want this. We can kill CES later.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

Pretty sure you mean Shanba, not CES.

Unvote
Vote: ChannelDelibird

Wagon go go go go go.

Unvote
Vote: ChannelDelibird

About damn time.

Unvote, vote: Channel

, I have faith in chamber and my Shanbavote didn't seem to draw any reactions. Boo.

Im really open to a Shanba vote.
Other news, I havent seen the reason to vote CDB beyond a lurker vote. Ill reread him but as I dont see the point now, I think this will be a wagon Ill miss.

I think gurgi not being under my name was actually a transcription error, he got put under CDB instead, which he later pointed out he shouldn't have been. I was trying to figure out where I messed up.

I am aware of the CDB wagon. I continue to think it would be fine if he were actually

here

, but is a waste of time as it stands. Hmm hmm.

@

DGB

: How's Glork doing so far, five days later? Right now his vote's on CDB, a lurker he doesn't think is scum based on a meta:

I would also prefer a Shanba lynch over a UT/CDB lynch, because (and this may sound stupid because of its metagaming nature) I think UT would have stayed around and kept superlurking if he were scum, rather than replacing out. Shanba fits the bill of Lurkerscum much more than UT/CDB.

@DGB: How's Glork doing so far, five days later? Right now his vote's on CDB, a lurker he doesn't think is scum based on a meta:

Again, you're using outdated information here. Shanba's defense of the nonexistent CDB-wagon (literally, there wasn't a single vote on CDB, and Shanba was blasting the lurkerhunt nature of the "wagon") is an extremely strong connection. Either Shanba is trying to earn superduperbrowniepoints by going "see, ITY he wasn't scum" when CDB does die, or he's trying to make sure that the wagon doesn't actually build (at least, not before CDB has a chance to actually participate in the game).

I would still strongly prefer a Shanbalynch over a CDBlynch, though.

Again, UT/CDB is the perfect storm of timely bandwagoning and lurking.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

CDB is at L-2.

I did want to work off of this, because I think it's likely that one of the mafia was bussing at this stage.
The wagons at the time of Ecto's claim looked like:

ChannelDelibird (1) -- Flameaxe

That leaves CTD/DGB and Flameaxe/CDB as possible scumpairs.

ChannelDelibird (6) -- Glork, chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum, Ether, DrippingGoofball, CrashTextDummie

I'm becoming less interested in a CDB lynch. It is more stagnant than the push against Shanba was. That said, he makes a reasonable vig/investigation target.

One of {Yos/Shanba} needs to be lynched today. The other needs to be vigged. There is no in-between, and I probably won't be moving my vote off of these two players.

I *might* be willing to go back to CDB. It really depends on what he does when he finally gets around to posting.

That's enough for now.

tl;dr summary for CDB

:
* Ether hopped off the Shanba wagon with cause before CTD called it "scum-fueled"
* chamber and Gurgi seemed to show genuine interest in figuring out who scum were and what each others' suspicions were
* Glork really wanted Shanba lynched over CDB and found a billion bad excuses to do it
* Glork, Ether, CES, chamber were the first four on Shanba. Pretty unlikely that's the scumteam, but who knows.
* chamber made efforts on multiple fronts (votecount summary, meta callout, lurking callout) to draw attention to CDB

My conclusions:
CDB is most likely scum. If he isn't, scum really mastered setting him up here, without knowing that Glork would fall before CDB.
Ether, chamber and Gurgi look like they were making real efforts to figure shit out.
CES, CDB and Porochaz were not.

[MrBuddyLee]

Note, I was here.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't think CDB and Prozac go together.

Why not?

[MrBuddyLee]

You do realize that this notion that I'm scum is absolute bullshit, right?

Why are you choosing not to answer my two questions?

[MrBuddyLee]

So what you're saying is that you were confident CES had a role, even though he had posted that he was vanilla. So you killed off Shanba. Correct?

I'm not going to answer any further questions from you unless you pledge to answer my questions in return. (1) Go into detail on why you were confident CES had a role. (2) Explain your case on me. Pledge to answer both of those and I'll take a look at the scintillating debate on p.102.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: Ether

[MrBuddyLee]

unvote

[MrBuddyLee]

Make your case.

[MrBuddyLee]

Is this what you're talking about on page 102?

Link me to your last scum game and your last two town games? Let's try to be

rational

about this, MBL.

So what is the deal with you and town reads? What do you think of Gurgi?

(Because I told you where to find my most recent games, and I answered you about Gurgi, so that can't be it. If it is, clarify your further questions.)

or is it this:

Here's a secret, MBL. I'm voting you. You're free to think what you want about my alignment (as if you're actually thinking), but if I gave a shit, I'd stop beating around the bush and just reiterate why I'm town. I don't care that you're asking me now; I want to know why you didn't do it weeks ago.

(You're asking why I didn't delve into your self-meta weeks earlier when you posted it? Because the world doesn't revolve around you, and your meta was largely useless, because it was primarily about posting quantity. You claimed to be town because you rambled about game-irrelevant crap for much of D2? If you were scum you wouldn't have rambled? I actually wasted a fraction of my life reading some of your previous games, and I didn't really see it. You posted less irrelevant crap in those games, and were more to the point with your accusations and cases. As scum AND as town. As far as I'm concerned, you're totally off meta in this game and I'd like to know why. If you clarify your meta, I can give you a more detailed answer on this question.)
or

I hope you're scum.

Could you articulate why? You keep calling my reads off the rail, but the only one you seem to actually dispute at all is your own. You've never stated

why

, exactly, you think it's unreasonable to draw the conclusions I did.

0) I hope you're scum because that would mean you've played well and fooled just about everyone. If you're town, my personal opinion, which means squat, is that you didn't contribute much and in fact were distractive from town's goals.
1) Pretty much everyone in this game has at one point or another realized I'm obvious or near-obvious town. Including some of the scum, who've found it expedient to treat me with kid gloves. CES, Poro, Gurgi, Glork, CDB, CTD, Huck, Shanba, Ythill. Probably others. Glork backed off me because he realized it was suicide to fight that wave any longer than he did.
2) Your "read" of Glork was obtuse. There's no other way to describe it. Either you're scum, or you abandoned rationality and reasonable doubt to stick to a terrible read for weeks, without particularly pursuing further information to question/clarify your beliefs.
3) You came into this game and stated you had a suppressed desire to lynch me based on factors outside this game.
4) You've never posted a case on me, or anything resembling a case, yet you've voted me above your top two suspects.
5) You don't seem to have read relevant parts of the game at all. You certainly haven't commented on them. You haven't made a SINGLE remark about my interactions with Glork and how they do/don't make me more likely or less likely to be scum. It's stunning, frankly.

So what I'm interested in knowing is why your "read" is so drastically different from people who have played the entire game. I want to know WHY you think I'm scum. That's how the game is played. You post WHY you think I'm scum, and we assess. You post WHY you thought CES was roled, and we assess. You have been slippery as an eel this game, and despite a few minor town tells from you (Shanba, for example), you really, really smell like scum.

Your turn.

[MrBuddyLee]

@Zorblag, with the current votes, all we really know is that the following scumteams are unlikely:

* Gurgi, MBL, CES
* Gurgi, MBL, Zorblag
* Gurgi, MBL, Ether
* Ether, MBL, CES
* Ether, MBL, Zorblag
* Gurgi, Ether, CES
* Gurgi, Ether, Zorblag

and to a lesser extent we've eliminated: (tougher to get 3 scum coordinated to quicklynch?)
* Ether, MBL, Porochaz
* Gurgi, MBL, Porochaz
* Gurgi, Ether, Porochaz

CDB, xxx, yyy could obviously still be the scumteam.
Zorblag, CES, Porochaz (all voting or being voted) could still be the scumteam.

Other possibilities:

Zorblag, CES, Ether
Zorblag, CES, Gurgi
Gurgi, CES, Ether
Gurgi, CES, Porochaz
Gurgi, Zorblag, Porochaz
CES, Ether, Porochaz
Ether, Zorblag, Porochaz

MBL, CES, Zorblag

MBL, CES, Porochaz

[MrBuddyLee]

We've had enough activity today that I'm pretty comfortable saying that ChannelDelibird shouldn't be scum.

?

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether, what do you think of inHim, Shanba and Yos?

Ether did not respond.

Ether, need some original thought from you on inHim, not sheeping.

Ether did not respond.

An MBL lynch is a compromise I am willing to make.

Details, please.

Ether responded with this:

Ythill thinks you're scum because he thinks you're scum with Glork. I think Glork is probably an insane cop, and got an innocent on you because you're scum.

So you have no play-based reasons for wanting me lynched, Ether?

Ether responded:

Something like that. My plan was always to put you off until I could see a few interactions and shit; Ythill's stance on Glork forced my hand there.

you've stated flatly that Huck is scum while giving absolutely no evidence to support it. So please elaborate upon why you feel he's scum.

Ether responded:

I think he's scummy for reasons other people have already given (even if I was thinking them first). He flew way too far under the radar for my comfort on Days 1 and 2, and is still coasting on his list without actually looking for or making the slightest effort to get scum lynched.

Wait, Ether. You suspect CDB less because you think his wagon that you were on (and you were the last person to get OFF of) was sketchy? Going to need some explanation from you re: why the CDB wagon(s) have been suspect.

Ether's response:

I didn't actually check who was on it; I was running from memory. But, um, yeah, I do think CES and chamber are both pretty likely to be scum.

You're really not answering the question, Ether. What specifically about that CDB wagon you were on looks sketchy to you?

You're going to answer me first.

Why are you pretending to suspect me when I'm the investigated innocent of the cop you are confident is town?

I'm frustrated.

Ether, I just read your entire post history and I believe you've given two reasons why Glork is town:

1) Because he sucks this game too much to be scum.
2) Just because.

I would like some more specifics from you, please.

At this point my position is less that Glork is a shining beacon of towniness and more that we don't lynch the uncounterclaimed cop. I'm sick of Glork--as a player, as a human being, as a topic of discussion, as some fucking lurker I need to defend--and it's kind of been wearing down my resolve. He's literally haunted my dreams, you know.

Based on the death (again), CES is town (again).

Ether, why is CES town based on the last two deaths?

unvote; vote: MrBuddyLee

For the first bit, not the question. (I think CES would have killed Crash instead of Ythill.)

Why?

On second thoughts, I don't want to give my full answer yet. Sorry--feel free to call me on this later.

You said you picked up a bit from your previous games with Glork, so please share. What did you learn from your previous games with Glork in which you accurately read him as scum?

I picked up that Glork could go either way when he's competent, but when he sucks, he's probably town? I was wrong, MBL, and the one time I read him correctly as scum, the game mechanics basically forced him not to bus. I think he probably did a more flexible form of that here--intentionally setting up innocents on his scumbuddies one by one and hoping to make it to LyLo that way.

Ether, did you read D1? Do you really think Glork was trying to bus me all day?

Also, can you please be clear about why you believe CDB isn't a good lynch today? Is it just that I'm on him, or is it more that you don't like the CDB wagons?

while I have read the full game, I barely remember any of it. (For example, I only remember the fact that Glork was attacking you based on Ythill's conspiracy theory from Day 3, right before Glork claimed cop. For what it's worth, I don't think said theory is likely at all.) I probably should go back over the early parts of the game for other reasons: not necessarily for your sake.

I think you brought up a fair point on the CDBwagon the last time you drew it to my attention, and it's still perfectly fair. I dunno. There are active reasons why I dislike Huck and Porochaz, while CDB is just absent.

You seem to have gone from "Porochaz is obvscum" to "Huck is obvscum and he's voting Porochaz so Poro might not be scum". What gives?

When I was trying to lynch Porochaz yesterday, I believed Huck had an innocent result from a confirmed sane cop.

Ether, why did you hop off Huck and stay off all day?

Ether did not answer.

Please make your case, Ether. Explicitly. I have been very patient with your nonsense, but I'd like to hear your FULL case. That's how the game is played. All day yesterday you spouted "Huck + MBL" "Huck + MBL" with a side dose of Porochaz. Huck is dead. You were wrong.

Ether did not respond.

Also, Ether, from all accounts you appear to heavily suspect Porochaz. Please explain your case on Porochaz.

Ether did not respond, but mentioned this:

I'm still in a position where I...kind of think Porochaz is town

Please explain how it was better to no-lynch quickly than to have Shanba give us his full suspicions. Even if Shanba had claimed/softclaimed vanilla, how would that have affected the day/night's events negatively?

Ether did not respond.

Please post WHY you thought CES was roled.

Ether has not answered.


I have so many problems with your play after reading all this over again.

* You dodged two questions about inHim D2
* You didn't give any play-based reasons for suspecting me (only your GlorkInsaneCop debacle)
* You claimed to be waiting to judge me based on interactions, but you haven't looked at or commented on any of my interactions with ANYONE.
* You defended Glork blindly without analyzing his play other than to say "he sucks this game"--how did you know he sucked before he died?
* You switched from Porochaz to Huck after the Glork lynch, for no good reason other than that Huck no longer had an innocent on him.
* You stayed off the Huck wagon all day, only hammering with some weird reasoning about "Poro and Huck not being scum together"
* Jan 16, you said the CDB wagon you were on in December was "sketchy" and thus you thought CDB was town
* You said CES was likely scum on Jan 16 but you are currently claiming you have thought for some time that he was roled town and that's why you killed Shanba fast.
* You held back answers regarding why you thought CES was town to start D4
* You recently said Porochaz is town and that you won't vote CDB, which makes it look like you don't have three scum suspects.

And possibly the biggest one:
* You seem oddly confident for someone who's been wrong over and over.

If I'm wrong, big whoop. I'm posting all this because I think your play has been sketchy, and if by some miracle scum finish me off tonight, this info's important to have front and center. If you're town, you're fully capable of defending yourself.

[MrBuddyLee]

scum in this environment can afford to wait. When I'm scum I'm not the impatient sort at all.

Does it bother you that CES is so impatient?

[MrBuddyLee]

To get the annoyance out of my system.

[MrBuddyLee]

*yawn* looking better and better at this point. Or else it's Zorblag-CES-Porochaz.

[MrBuddyLee]

Cdb, your thoughts?

[MrBuddyLee]

Ok, Gurgi and Ether, we find ourselves somewhat on the same team right now. We face two choices:

1) vote CDB
2) the scumteam is CES+Zorblag+Porochaz and we need to all vote Porochaz alongside CDB.

One and only one of those two propositions is correct. One is guaranteed to be correct. The three of us need to decide which and act in the next 24 hours or so.

I was hoping to wait a bit and see if CDB reacted to the current situation, but frankly, we don't have the time.

I am interested to see your thought on the current vote situation, and your thoughts on the likelihood of CES+Zorblag+Porochaz. I'm about to reread the entire game right now from that perspective to see if it makes consistent sense. Whether or not you have time to do that, please post your thoughts on which is the better of our two choices right now.

[MrBuddyLee]

So what if we lynch Prozac and he turns up scum, but you're wrong about the team?

Also who's your team with CDB?

It's possible that Prozac and CDB are scum together.

But the utterly fabulous thing right now is that we can guarantee that at least one is. And possibly both.

My instinct is CES-Prozac-CDB, with Zorblag/Ether possibly subbing in for one. Ordinarily, I'd be hesitant to give scum info on my suspects so they can decide who to nightkill and who to leave around, but my suspicions are fairly fluid right now. We have two lurkers who haven't given us a lot, CES who has gone for low hanging fruit and minimal verbiage all game, and Ether, who has played the prototypical scum game and the only arguments against are 1) most dead town have found her townish and 2) scum wouldn't dare risk playing THAT wrong. My Gurgitown read is more tone-based than anything, and if it comes down to a final three with you in it, I hope whoever's left definitely takes the time to read your play critically to see how it matches up with the rest of caught scum.

I only made it 10 pages before heading to brunch, but if CES-Zorblag-Porochaz is the scumteam, CES and chamber buddied early, which would be odd.

Fuck alliances. (unless its me and CES).

Hey ces, can we vote ythill or yos instead of ctd?

[MrBuddyLee]

The correct scumteam is one of these:

CDB-Gurgi-Porochaz
CDB-Ether-Porochaz
CDB-CES-Porochaz
CDB-Zorblag-Porochaz

CDB-Gurgi-Ether
CDB-Gurgi-CES
CDB-Gurgi-Zorblag
CDB-Ether-CES
CDB-Ether-Zorblag
CDB-CES-Zorblag

Zorblag-CES-Porochaz

Any other scumteam could have quicklynched by now for victory.

So either Zorblag-CES-Porochaz is the scumteam, trying to goad one town into voting CDB,

or CDB is scum.

that kind of very early game budding/alliance forming like he was doing with ces in that vote is cool in scumchat games, but seems at least somewhat scummy this early in a forum game.

You're just a buzzkill.

Chamber wanted:

More UT votes!!

when UT was L-3.

Glork specifically protected UT, even though he still finds UT suspicious:
Untrod Tripod (7) -- CrashTextDummie,

Flameaxe

,

chamber

, Mert,

Cogito Ergo Sum

, Fritzler,

Glork

I'm not feeling the UT wagon. I would like to see more pressure on Ecto, especially in light of MBL's post (*cringe*).
Unvote, Vote: Ecto

If scumteam is chamber, Glork, CES, Flameaxe, note that ALL FOUR were on the UT wagon, which would explain why Glork hopped off. Because he wouldn't want the entire scumteam to get caught on a mislynch.

[MrBuddyLee]

chamber oddly posted:
C0mr4ad3 (11:45:57 PM): Chamber, go make a post in our game
blargerer (11:47:13 PM): prod me in thread not out, if I'm reading I'll get the message.
C0mr4ad3 (11:49:11 PM): Well, I just posted, and I don't want to doublepost

which is a really odd thing to post if they're scum together. 1) possible modkill of scumpartner 2) possible drawing of association between scumpartners

Strongly tempted to eliminate the CDB-Ether-Zorblag scumteam from our remaining possibilities.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm trying to figure out whether CES-Zorblag-Porochaz is a more realistic possibility than "CDB = scum".

You do realize you could just vote CDB if you're confident he's scum. What are you waiting for?

[MrBuddyLee]

Gurgi, Zorblag's voted. We have to choose now between CDB and Porochaz, or try to do some quick persuading about an alternate candidate. With Ether not around, our options may be limited.

So the problem I'm having at the moment is that you guys are posting faster than I can catch up. I requested replacement in a couple of games yesterday for the purpose of making sure I can stick with this one. I promised Patrick I wouldn't flake and so I am determined not to.

The wagon on me appears to be receding so I feel like claiming now would be a bit counter-productive (

and I don't see any reason why it would affect DGB's view of me anyway

). If I am wrong and more than, say, the four people still voting for me want me to, then I will.

How much have you read?

I got stuck at page 41 when CTD posted a huge tl;dr. Wading back in now.

Heh, I think the research may have finally paid off.

In the bolded part of the quoted post above, CDB appears to be concerned with the possibility of being vigged by DGB.

But if CDB only checked votecounts and stopped reading at page 41, how did he know that DGB was the "vig"? Crash's "tl;dr" post was Dec 16th 6:55pm. DGB's first major vig hint was two days later:

@ MBL

Shall I vig Glork?

Or, I could vig CES.

Hypothesis 1: CDB's scumteam filled him in behind the scenes (quicktopic) about DGB being a possible vig
Hypothesis 2: CDB lied about not staying current with the game and is scum
Hypothesis 3: CDB lied about not staying current with the game and is terrible town

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm here and utterly fascinated.

[MrBuddyLee]

Gurgi, Ether, can you please post if you're interesting in discussing gamestate at all?

[MrBuddyLee]

Ok, here's the case for Glork-CES-chamber/Zorblag-Porochaz being the scumteam.

* They NEVER voted each other D1, other than CES's random vote stage vote on Glork
* They NEVER voted each other D2
* Glork made a point of calling out his meta--a chronic buser--but he never bused a scumpartner until CES right before lynch.

DGB: Why wouldn't I want to bus hard? I have a long and storied history of busing hard, which I'd be more than glad to show you if you want. Heck, the one thing I don't do is stick my neck out for my scumbuddies when they've got a noose around their neck. Meta completely, 100% disagrees with what you're insinuating here.

* They were on lots of wagons together:

Nov 19: CrashTextDummie (6) -- Fritzler, Shanba, Untrod Tripod,

Cogito Ergo Sum

, IH,

chamber

Nov 23: Untrod Tripod (7) -- CrashTextDummie,

Flameaxe, chamber

, Mert,

Cogito Ergo Sum

, Fritzler,

Glork

* Nov 24, Glork hopped off the CDB wagon "still on the fence about CDB" possibly because ALL FOUR SCUM were on the wagon (note, Glork only got on CDB because he was skimming the game and Fritzler told him to get on CDB the previous day)

Dec 4: Ectomancer (8) -- stark, MrBuddyLee,

Glork, Cogito Ergo Sum

, Mert, Fritzler, Yosarian2, DrippingGoofball
Dec 16: Shanba (5) --

Glork

, Ether,

Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber

, HackerHuck
Dec 17: ChannelDelibird (4) -- DrippingGoofball,

Glork, chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum

Dec 23: Yosarian2 (7) -- Shanba, MrBuddyLee, Ythill,

Glork

, CrashTextDummie,

chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum

(poro on Ythill)
Jan 3: inHimshallibe (7) -- ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi,

Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber

, HackerHuck, Yosarian2,

Porochaz

Jan 10: Shanba (2) --

Glork, Cogito Ergo Sum

*

Jan 10, Glork claims cop and is counterclaimed. Plan changes:

Jan 11-Jan 16:

Glork

(3) -- Ythill, CrashTextDummie,

Cogito Ergo Sum

Glork

(3) -- CrashTextDummie, ChannelDelibird,

Porochaz

Glork

(3) -- CrashTextDummie, ChannelDelibird,

Porochaz

Glork

(4) -- CrashTextDummie, ChannelDelibird,

Porochaz, Cogito Ergo Sum

Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- Glork

* CES, Prozac jumped on and off Glork while Huck, Ether, Gurgi, MBL wavered

Right before Glorklynch:

Porochaz

(5) -- Shanba, Ether, Ythill, HackerHuck,

chamber

*

Hypothesis: scumteam temporarily abandoned no-busing behavior to deal with Glorkwagon

Day 4:
HackerHuck (5) --

Cogito Ergo Sum

, ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi, Shanba,

Zorblag

Porochaz

did not place a vote all D4
CES was his #1 suspect after Glork D3
But he weakened his stance and never placed a vote D4 despite finding Huck null:

I'm up for a Porochaz lynch now. Looking back at his scum-hunting, it seems that he had made his decisions prior to actually using that point system (much like he accused DGB of doing). If you take away Ythill due to the claim, his top suspect CES had a -10 and Glork was at a -7. Gurgi and I were null reads (-4.5, -5) and DGB was town at a -1. I'm not sure where the line was drawn, but it looks like it was fitted to his suspect list.

I voted Glork over CES purely because the claim I don't feel is believable and things change like the claim therefore I have to adhust my vote accordingly.

Porochaz, what do you think of HackerHuck, CDB, CES, Gurgi and chamber?

H.H. - same opinion as my summary of him in my reread
CDB - Chronic Lurker, same as me, pretty much, except from my point of view, I think that Im being more accessable than him. Looking at the game more as a whole, he seems to have made a load of excuses

CES

- I didnt like CES in my reread, I havent really noticed him since. Im going to look through his posts at a later date
Gurgi - Flying very much under the radar

Chamber

- Not much of an opinion, need to iso him as well

* Repeat, Poro did not vote anyone all day D4

D5
No Lynch (5) --

Cogito Ergo Sum

, Lord Gurgi,

Porochaz

, Ether,

Zorblag

D6
ChannelDelibird (3) --

Cogito Ergo Sum, Zorblag, Porochaz

=========================================================================
Caveats:
1) CDB was on a few of those bad wagons, and was the target of a few of those wagons and could have been busing
2) CDB also bused Glork quickly without much hesitation
3) CDB appears to have lied about whether or not he read the game past page 41--he knew about DGB's vig claim that happened a few pages later
4) The "scum decided not to bus" theory is just that--a theory. We have to decide whether that makes more sense or if "CDB is scum and was occasionally bused" makes more sense.

Still thinking. I am not yet ready to vote CDB, as so much evidence fits if Glork-CES-Chamber-Poro are the scumteam. However, if we don't discuss/vote soon, we are in imminent danger of nolynch. Need thoughts from everyone, including thoughts from Zorblag/CES/Poro on why they DON'T fit as a sucmteam.

[MrBuddyLee]

Note, CDB and Porochaz can still potentially be scumpartners, but the thing that matters right now is figuring out whether the reason CDB is not dead yet is because:
1) He's town, CES-Zorblag-Poro are scum, and only town are still deliberating
or
2) CDB is scum and 1-3 town are still thinking it over

We either lynch Porochaz or CDB. One or both have to be scum. Gurgi and Ether, which is more likely?

[MrBuddyLee]

Pretty sure deadline's in 1 1/2 hrs.

[MrBuddyLee]

I agree that CDB has not played a particularly protown game, that's why this sucks.

[MrBuddyLee]

Deadline hits 10 pm GMT on the 28th.

Current GMT: 8:52 PM

[MrBuddyLee]

Fuck alliances. (unless its me and CES).

Hey ces, can we vote ythill or yos instead of ctd?

Guys, CES hasn't done anything thats actually scummy this game. I think there are 3 people that are alive that I would say that about. Terrible wagon.

CES hasn't done anything significant in a while, he's lurking in plain sight.

He should speak out now, he might not be here tomorrow morning.

CES is on V/LA

DGB: CES isn't happening, push for someone that might actually die.

And never mentioned CES after that.

I think at this point I like ChannelDelibird best as a scum candidate. If I'm wrong about that then Cogito Ergo Sum probably goes up some on my list

Actually, if you're wrong, the game's over.

@MrBuddyLee, my feeling that ChannelDelibird and Cogito Ergo Sum aren't partners was based on gut reaction to how they were interacting when I was doing my readthroughs.

Possible coaching:

@Porochaz, is there any particular reason that you're not voting for ChannelDelibird at this point if you think that he's likely scum? It seems that of your three suspects he's the one that's likely to get lynched today (and, as I've argued, if he's town the scum team really almost has to be Cogito Ergo Sum, you and I at this point.) That he's left a vote on you for as long as he has and town hasn't lost the game should be all the convincing that you need that he's scum assuming that you're town.

I see what you mean Zorb, I held off because I wanted to chat with Ether a bit more. Especially as she is my top suspect at the moment. At the very least I want her to answer MBL's case. However she can still answer either way.

vote CDB

Reasons for voting CDB:

Havent I stated my opinion on CDB before? I find him scummy, because I dont think he's even trying anymore. He's accepted the inevitable and is waiting for his lynch rather than try and change peoples minds...

Yeah, that's an argument that fails to convince me.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

If that loses the game I suppose I'm sorry on principle, but only barely given the way we're limping along right now.

Who do you want lynched and why?

Channel/Prozac. I've already said why.

You have? I just read back through December 17th and couldn't find a hint of a case you've made against either. Please indulge me by emptyquoting your old cases/arguments for those two being scum.

I just read that stretch of your posts again. You never made any kind of case on either or stated any facts in support of your belief that they're scum. Not one.

This time, you're not wagoning. Please make your cases, or point us to the previous cases you claim you've made on those two.

Huh. I guess I assumed that had come up at some point previous. The answer is pretty boring anyway: lurking (in the case of Porochaz), gut (mostly Channel on this one), process of elimination, Glrok protecting Channel. I think my suspicion of HH blinded me to Channelscum a bit previously, because Channel proposing HH-Prozac-me looked like a losing proposition.

Not super convincing. But neither is the proposition that CDB is town.

Paging Gurgi and Ether to a white courtesy phone.

[MrBuddyLee]

Note, if Flameaxe is scum with chamber-Glork-CES, he nails two of the three in this post--he technically calls Glork town but says there's something nonspecifically "weird" about him. And he gives a null on chamber.

1) Yosarian2
-Not getting any huge scummy vibes here. Trying to figure out all this chamber-hate, maybe I'm not seeing something. Could you give me an in your own words explanation for why he's scum?
-Leaning town
2) Mert
- I agree with your opinions on the CTD wagon, pretty much agree with everything mert says about the UT situation too. Not much else to really get to.
-Leaning town.
3) IH
- HI IH. Nothing really to get a solid read here. Or anything close to solid for that matter. Glad you have computer access again, hopefully we'll hear more from you soon.
-No read
4) Shanba
-Shanba's recent lack of sleep posts feel very protown to me. Can't really think of anything else meaningful to say here.
-Leaning Town
5) Flameaxe
-Really needs to start participating and posting more in this game.
6) CrashTextDummie
-Nothing bad jumps out at me here. Nothing super jumps out at me either.
-Null read.

7) Glork
-I like some parts, indifferent about others here. His catchup post seems fine on paper, but I'm getting a weird gut read about it. Can't really explain it. I'm going to try to work on finding words to explain it. I'm liking his posts since then without any weird gut feelings.
-Leaning town 'weird gut' read?

8) Cogito Ergo Sum
- Yarr. Again, not a ton to go off of. Not a huge fan of his wagon jumping, considering most of it has nothing else to go with it from what I can see. Also noting that CES has been on three (what I consider to be) major wagons in CTD, UT, and now Ecto (ecto's jump did have some opinion with it).
-Leaning slightly scum.

9) Lord Gurgi
- Not really getting any strong read on Flimsy either. If anything, I like some of his points throughout the game.
-Slightly town

10) Untrod Tripod
- Nothing has changed from the reasons I voted him in the first place. Not liking how he plays off a vote (that in my mind) came off as a serious vote as a joke vote. Not liking his essential vanishing from the thread after that point up until a few hours ago.
- Still Feeling scum.

11) Ythill
- Without going into terrible details for time reasons, some parts of my read gave me town vibes, but my read started shuffling back down as the thread went on. Mainly the whole ShanbaSlip business that rubs me the wrong way. I'm really not seeing it and it feels like grasping at straws a bit. However, I don't really see a reason for him to grasp either way. So...Yeah.
- Null I guess, could go either way.
12) Fritzler
- Again, not much to go off of. Has...sort of been around, but hasn't really given a whole lot content-wise other than his UT push.
- Null
13) HackerHuck
- Ythill vote is a stretch, in my opinion. I see his point, I guess, and it sort of makes sense, but that doesn't make it any less of a stretch.
-Leaning Slightly scum
14) Ectomancer
- Feels very much like frustrated town to me. Never been a big fan of the whole "no vote, no town read" style that almost seems to be the case at points. A lot of the points against Ecto seem contrived to me as well. The response to said points gives me said frustrated town read.
-Town

15) stark
- First off, hi! Didn't say that earlier for some reason. Seems to be actively trying to get information out of everyone, in a seemingly protown way. Can't find anything bad to pick out from his iso.
-Town

16) inHimshallibe
- Odd vibes from the whole Vote CTD, vote mert, CTD wagon diffused chain of events in iso 6-7. In regards to my last post, you point out what I pointed out in my last post in iso 10. I'll put that here to look back on too.
- Kind of a null read.

17) chamber
- I honestly cannot come up with a read here. I'm going to come back to this one at an earlier hour...

18) MrBuddyLee
- His questioning of Ecto seems protown-ish. Is there anyone besides Ecto on your scumdar? Just wondering.
-Slightly town.

If he is scum with CES-Glork-CDB, same thing--he actually nailed all THREE scum.

If he's scum with Ether/Gurgi and one of CDB/CES/chamber, he mixed it up.

If he's town, he amazingly managed to call Glork weird, and two of Glork's potential scumpartners (and three of the four most likely) scum. CDB, CES, chamber.

aargh

If he's town, and Glork + Gurgi/Ether + CES/chamber + CDB is the scumteam, his reads are still significantly better than average.

Is Flameaxe that good at mafia? Or did he have inside info?

[MrBuddyLee]

Jesus, Ether. Gurgi's invisible. We barely have time to process this.

You're going to have to make a gut call. CDB or Poro. Hopefully Gurgi is listening in and will weigh in as well. I doubt BOTH of you are scum. If either of you feels CDB strongly, hammer him. Otherwise, consider the Glork-chamber/Zorb-CES-Flameaxe/Porochaz combo and please at least comment.

[MrBuddyLee]

And Ether's no longer browsing the forum.

[MrBuddyLee]

Olinea and SonKitty showed up in Users browsing this forum: if that matters later.

[MrBuddyLee]

Not much option left at this point--no-lynch and lose or vote CDB. I'm strongly suspecting the Porochaz-CES-Zorblag alternative.

[MrBuddyLee]

good luck guys

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, is it over?

[MrBuddyLee]

I had it pasted in and ready to go when Ether voted ~60 secs before end of day. I probably would have submitted it within seconds. I also had it ready to go in my smartphone in case my internet choked.

To be clear, I wasn't certain it was the right vote, but it had to happen.

Porozac, who are the scum and why?

Gurgi, can you please explain why you didn't vote either CDB or Porochaz, or another suspect, before deadline? With four town three scum, you pretty much handed scum the keys to victory if you're town. Who do you think the scumteam is now and why?

And Ether, that was a brilliant play if you're scum. I will assume you're town for now, considering you showed up at deadline to place a vote on scum when you could have skipped out entirely. I waited to vote as long as possible partially because I was somewhat in doubt, and partially because I wanted more information on everyone. You could have dithered and suggested Porochaz, but instead you voted scum, and that has to count for something. (Unless Porochaz is scum, and even then I still think your presence as opposed to absence counts for something.)

I am still waiting for answers from you on a few questions, and if you're busy until Friday, I suppose those answers will have to wait. I'm also interested to know why specifically you feel Gurgi is scum.

Zorblag, thank you for replacing into the game. You played well, and it was refreshing to read posts with content.

[MrBuddyLee]

ps. yum, scumday cake! 5 years today since I signed up for MS and got into a Newbie game with Fritzler and MeMe. By the way, Ythill, if you're watching.. I would say that in general, you might want to give Fritz an extra day before vig next time. Even if he spends most of D1 voting for town...

[MrBuddyLee]

her actions makes no sense if scum, she's basically confirmed even if she has gotten absolutely everything wrong.

This is not entirely true, considering if she's scum she knows I'm town and thus knew I was going to hammer anyway if she did nothing. But as scum she could have (a) stayed away til after deadline or (b) encouraged me to vote Porochaz instead.

You have a different perspective than I do, and should possibly be able to eliminate some scumpairings logically if you are town. I've kind of eliminated one possibility.

That said, Im not sure I like the way you postponed the lynch, I'm wondering if you have a similar strategy to vollkan in regards to verboseness - could you link a scum game?

I was a bad guy and lynched D5 here.
http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7924

In this game, I was scum and scumDGB dayvigged me before I could finish typing my first post. No joke.
http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8222

In this game, I was keelhauled by Pirates and throatsliced by Ninjas N1, and Fritzler resurrected me so I could lightsaber the shit out of people (vig).
http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7283

And I was scum with Glork here, alias "Silent Lee":
http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6082


Porochaz, why, specifically, didn't you like the way I "postponed the lynch"? Do you feel information was gained by what I did?

Ether, if you're casually answering but not intending to get serious til Friday, can you please just say a little about your thought process over the 24 hours leading up to deadline?

[MrBuddyLee]

hmm, ballsy play if you're town, CES. well, soon you will all see that mbl-gurgi is not the scumteam, nor the deliciously unlikely mbl-ether. hopefully we also verify that ether-gurgi is also not the scumteam.

[MrBuddyLee]

Right, and similar logic applied at the time to MBL/CES and Ether/CES. Also Zorblag/CES, Zorblag/Ether and Zorblag/MBL, which are moot now.

If it's not Porochaz, Ether, what are you thinking at this point? It's not me, and at the least you can evidently see it's not me+Gurgi which was your former hypothesis.

[MrBuddyLee]

hi

[MrBuddyLee]

Who, me?

[MrBuddyLee]

I think maybe I'll pretend to know what you're talking about and then have a few drinks and see if my brain can catch up.

[MrBuddyLee]

Im not sure I like the way you postponed the lynch

I'll repeat this question, as you've been on the site and active in other threads since I posted it. What specifically didn't you like at the time, Porochaz? If you didn't like what I was up to, why didn't you post while it was going on? You were all over Mafiascum Monday/Tuesday. What thoughts crossed your mind in the 48 hours before lynch?

Also, what are your thoughts on the game right now? In as much detail as possible, please.

[MrBuddyLee]

This is not the time to stop contributing, people.

Can you please lay out your argument for Prozac = scum? Ether says she suspects he's town and I'd like to see a debate on the matter.

Also, a Gurgi-MBL scumteam has pretty much been disproven at this point, so I'm interested in seeing Ether's new top suspect.

[MrBuddyLee]

I do think CES is scum if it's between CES and Prozac.

What's your case for CES = scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

I'll be around to chit chat this afternoon if any of you want to bounce thoughts back and forth.

So what's going on ScuMBL?

Your repeated nickel and dime comments casting baseless aspersions upon me are noted.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think MBL's failure to hammer is absolutely 100% unforgiveable and there is pretty much no way that he is not scum.

When, in your opinion, would have been the appropriate time to hammer?


Also, do you believe Gurgi when he says he forgot about the game? I believe he posted 12 hrs before deadline:

I agree with MBL this time. Zorblag you might as well vote in this circumstance, unless you think MBL's accusation has merit.

And later said:

I think MBL asked why I wasn't there at the end of the day and I just forgot about the game with the other stuff that I have going on. Sorry.

Aren't you concerned about the fact that Gurgi supposedly thought you were away for the weekend, claims to think I'm scum, and yet didn't place the lynch vote 12 hours before deadline and never returned?

[MrBuddyLee]

CES is defending MBL on the basis that he clearly had a plan. What is the man, Rumsfeld? Tell Ether she was wrong to hammer someone who has since flipped scumz and instead should have let it slide on the hope that MBL was waiting for the last minute when she thinks he's scum already. Are you claiming scum?

Ether did the right thing, which is worth minor points over you, in my opinion. Who's saying she did the wrong thing? You haven't been making sense for a few days now. You clearly don't appear to be reading the game carefully, because you're missing all sorts of things.

What's really key is that MBL's excuse for not hammering was in the name of generic "information." (And also because he was "partially in doubt." Seriously? It didn't even matter anymore; there was no way any lynch except CDB's was going to happen at that point. Though he did try to tell me otherwise at 10 minutes to deadline.) If MBL had hammered five minutes early, it (probably) wouldn't have made Patrick lock the thread sooner. He'd have gotten the same information either way.

And Ether's no longer browsing the forum.

Zorblag corrected him (at three minutes to deadline), but what was he supposed to conclude as town at the time? Dude wanted us to fail; that's all there is to it.

You're wrong. I was fully prepared to cast a vote for CDB at deadline, and was about to click post when you ended up doing it first. Once again, you bring out the propaganda. I was not out for generic "information". I wanted to see several things that I couldn't have seen if I cast a vote at 6AM when I went to bed after reading the thread for several hours and finding a quote that PROVED that CDB lied about not keeping up with the thread.

* I wanted to know which, if either, of you/Gurgi was interested in actually lynching CDB. If I lynched early, either of you could have just made the excuse "well, I just logged in after you did but before deadline". This way, we actually got to see WHO wanted a lynch.
* I wanted to see if either you or Gurgi, OR CES/Zorblag, wavered on CDB when Porochaz was brought up as an option. No one wavered.

I made it clear that Gurgi was invisible and possibly reading the thread. As it turns out, he wasn't, as he has admitted. Gurgi could have hammered at 5AM but HE DIDN'T, and he NEVER RETURNED. That IS info, and not at all generic info. I gained info by waiting until the last minute to place my vote. It is possible that Ether made a crafty play and voted before me so she could co-opt the high ground. More likely, she showed up because she actually gave a shit about lynching CDB. Unlike Gurgi. Granted, life happens and not everyone can be in the thread at all times. But Zorblag was there because he gave a shit, CES was, I was, Ether was, and Gurgi and Poro weren't. Info.

Ether, I asked you about your position on Poro vs. CDB with ten minutes to go because 1) I was genuinely uncertain, and 2) I wanted to see how you leaned. Obviously if Gurgi wasn't around, nothing could have happened other than a CDB lynch, but we didn't know that. It was worth probing you for information in a game short on information. The fact that no one piped up when I expressed interest in Porochaz makes it MORE, not LESS likely, that he is CDB's scumpartner.

Ether, your proposed scumteam is again fail. It can't be Gurgi-MBL, and it pretty much can't be CES-MBL.

Also, I will bring up once again the fact that I wanted CDB dead day 4 instead of HackerHuck and made convincing cases which you all ignored when you lynched Huck. This post http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2773001 in particular showed that only Gurgi's case was sound against Huck, and Ether's and CES's were weak or no better than their cases against others. Zorblag's and Shanba's were nuanced, as you'd expect from town.

This post I made http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2774998 showed once again that Glork's D1 and D2 play made no sense if CDB is town.

This post http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2770676 pointed out how bizarre it was that no scum were voting for CDB during Huck's lynch, considering a cop and an obv-townie were on CDB, there's no way scum could resist that wagon if CDB was town.

Here http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2762676 I pointed out that CDB lied about having evidence supporting a Glork-HackerHuck scumteam.

Here, I pointed out that Glork's D2 panic about vigging made sense if CDB was scum. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2761110

Basically, I laid out a gigantic case against CDB D4 and you guys voted Huck. And I laid out solid evidence against CDB D6 and was prepared to vote him at deadline. Whoever doesn't believe that, if you're town, read up and see if you REALLY think everything I did in the days before the D4 and D6 lynch looks more like scum than town. If I was scum and knew Ether was town, I'd have dropped my vote on CDB the moment I saw her name browsing the forum. (WIFOM, yeah, whatever.) CDB was obviously going to get lynched if EtherTown was reading the game, so I'd have co-opted. But I didn't. Because I didn't think I needed to prove myself. I was just there to secure a lynch after all possible information was gained from the day.

Ether, you were wrong about Glork. Wrong about Huck. Wrong to defend CDB as scum's "innocent fall guy" all game. You now say you think you were wrong about CES, and that he's scum. You now say you think you were wrong about Porochaz when you pushed his lynch all D4. You voted CDB because there was no other option. You are wrong about me, and even though there's a chance you're scum jerking me around, I'm going to appeal to you as if you are town. Open your mind and read the totality of the game, particularly my play surrounding CDB and Glork, and see if you really think I'm scum with them. Hint: answer's no.

Gurgi, same applies to you. Wrong about Huck, defended CDB much of the game, attacked chamber all game, and ignored Glork until he made his biggest slip. If you're town, reread the game. You're missing something. Hats off if you're scum and managed to sound like town for so much of the game. But I've been working to find scum all game, and you should be able to see it.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether and Gurgi, let's be clear here. Am I really the top suspect for both of you?

[MrBuddyLee]

Noting lack of bwahaha from MBL, my scumpicks are going strong.

When you posted this, what did you mean?

[MrBuddyLee]

Regarding my post: It was confirming you weren't scum with the other feasible scumteam since you didn't hammer or whatever.

What scumteam was that?

MBL: You're taking cheap shots at me at this point, and it's getting old.

You're playing lazily, which is making it difficult to ascertain your alignment at endgame. You seemed townish to me earlier in the game because you noticed a lot of stuff other people were missing, or at least stuff that made sense and took thought. But now, when it matters most, you're just dialing it in. Which looks incredibly scummy from my perspective. Of course I'm going to prod and poke at you if you suspect me--either you're scum trying to win the game or town who's potentially going to lose us the game. I'm trying to figure out which.

CES was blaming Ether for hammering rather than trusting in you.

If that's what he actually was doing, it'd be scummy. Didn't look like it to me. Can you please make your argument more clearly?

CES defending you at this point considering everything else makes him even scummier.

He is a little overly strident, but I suppose if he has a really good read on me, I can understand it. Or he's scum sucking up in preparation for a final three. Believe me, I'm wary.

Also you're not really relevant at the moment, the choice remains between Prozac and CES.

So you'll probably vote for CES. Because you didn't think CDB+Poro made sense. And you find CES scummy. If that's the case, I'd like to see an end-to-end case on CES from you.

You're overemphasising the value of quantity of information. Everything is information, that doesn't make it valuable. You can't know a lot of what you assume, like the fact that I did forget about the game over a 12 hour period.

First of all, I'm not assuming anything. I said life happens and therefore we can never know for sure whether you made a mistake as town and forgot about the game in a crucial stretch. But we CAN with certainty know that you did not place a hammer vote on CDB when you visited the thread and posted with 12 hours to go. When there was no sign of Ether--she'd been AFK for 2-3 days. If you truly suspected I might be scum, you would have hammered there instead of leaving the game up to me / disappearing Ether. Instead, you left it up to me. Why? Did you want someone else dead besides CDB? If so, why didn't you push for it?

Man, the whole reason I stay invisible is so that this sort of crap about whether or not a person is there doesn't come into play. People still read the thread logged out, guys.

Were you reading the thread in the 12 hours before CDB's lynch or not? Were you one of the alts I mentioned in-thread that were checking the thread around deadline?

I have never understood why being correct about who the scum are should be the sign of a townie. Burden of Proficiency and all that.

Yos, Glork, and you all get the burden of proficiency in my book, he just comes off the worst for now. I don't want to lynch you three on day one, for example, but as time goes on I'll be more and more in support of it.

For future reference, and if you're town in this game, you shouldn't play so sloppily. It makes you look scummy.


Apologies for all the questions, but we haven't wasted four months on this game to piss it away now. Time for you to shine as a townie and do the legwork if you're actually a townie. Same applies to Ether, who's also dialing it in--way worse than you, in my opinion. And at least one of you is probably town.

[MrBuddyLee]

Uh what's the problem here? I told you I might well use Burden of Proficiency as an argument if it became relevant. You're using the inaccuracy of Ether and I compared to you to argue that you're being a better townie. I do not see why you being more accurate makes you more townie. The Burden of Proficiency, though often called a fallacy, is probably right in my opinion.

I'm not saying that being more right makes me more townie. I haven't been incredibly right this game, and scum can be 100% right if they want to be. What I'm pointing out is the QUALITY of my arguments. The goal of scum is to be right without persuading anyone. They want to keep their partners alive and lynch townies while still being able to point to their "rightness" later. What I'm trying to point out is that while I was uncertain about their alignments, I posted pretty good evidence against CDB, including stuff that linked him to Glork, and I posted stuff that linked Glork to CDB BEFORE either came up scum. I actively, persistently tried to get you all to switch from Huck to CDB using evidence. That would be terrible scumplay by most objective perspectives. I have also linked Porochaz to Glork via an early Flameaxe post, and referenced it for several days now. Since at least one of Poro-CES has to be scum now, I have actually posted solid evidence linking at LEAST two of Glork's scumpartners to him. Possibly all three. (There's the obvious data linking Ether and Glork that it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to spot, so I won't take credit for harping on it, and there's really not much linking you to Glork.)

I have also previously posted about links between CES and Glork. I have more questions for him, but right now he's voting Poro, who I think very well may be scum, and you and Ether are suspecting me. Clearly, I want to hear more from Poro, and a full case from CES on Poro, but I also need to hear what's going on in your head and in Ether's. The scumteam CAN'T be Ether-Gurgi, so it's either CES-Poro, or it's one of them and one of you.

Apologies for all the questions, but we haven't wasted four months on this game to piss it away now. Time for you to shine as a townie and do the legwork if you're actually a townie. Same applies to Ether, who's also dialing it in--way worse than you, in my opinion. And at least one of you is probably town.

CES however is an exemplary, why do you give him a free pass? Do you think he's scum after all?

Quite possibly. Poro has played super scummy, and defended CDB a few times. He failed to vote entirely on D4. Ether says he's not scum based on tone--she says he'd be "passive" as scum. I'm interested to hear more from both of you on why Poro's not scum. At this point it's unlikely he'll be lynched if you both think he's town, but I want to hear the case in more depth, because the mile-high view is that Poro looks like scum based on the way he and Flameaxe have played. (Flameaxe's "weird gut town" read on Glork D1 and his uncanny accuracy in scum detection included.)

CES was massively protected by Glork.

DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today.

Dammit. We all want this. We can kill CES later.

Pretty sure you mean Shanba, not CES.

No objection if I vig CES, then?

Nah, CES is probably town.

I have also maintained that CES is fairly obviously protown.

Glorky!

We need to prioritize.

We've got CES-scum to kill.

I still don't think CES is all that likely to be scum. He's not acting like the complete obvtownCES that I saw yesterday, but my D1 read of him trumps what little questionalbe content I have seen.

Believe me, my eyes are fully open to the possibility of CES being scum. I want to hear you and Ether talk about CES and Poro more, because at least one of you two HAS to be town, and whoever makes the best arguments/posts the best reasons for picking one of CES/Poro over the other is more likely to be town. If the two of you agree, and make sense, then I know I can trust the judgment as sincere.

[MrBuddyLee]

That's not entirely how I'm basing my read, but it's a significant confirmer/refuter of my own thoughts. If you both disagree with my lean that Porochaz is more likely scum than CES, obviously I'll reconsider. If one of you gives enough of a shit to make a good case, that means something. And unless CES is busing, we're probably going to lose unless all three townies vote together.


Your argument about CDB and Prozac not busing each other to start D6 is interesting. Do you have meta information to share about them or is it just common sense? And if so, what do you think of CES voting Prozac now? Does it make them less likely scumpartners?

I think that if you want to, you can make a convincing case for anyone being scum, given enough information. Winning an argument is based more upon the skill of the arguer than the merit of the case. I've said this before earlier on.

I'm not trying to win an argument per se, I'm just trying to present different angles on the situation. I don't even know who I'm arguing with. Two of you are basically ignoring what I say so you can pursue your scum agenda. Obviously, not every case town makes is correct. But if a bunch of cases synch up, particularly if they're from multiple people, they're more likely correct. I'm trying to get town to work together to attack this from different angles to find a complete story that makes sense.

But anyway, if the goal of the scum is to be right and not persuade anyone, isn't that what you just admitted to? Failing to get us to lynch CDB until now, etc. etc.?

Well, considering:
HackerHuck (6) -- Cogito Ergo Sum, ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi, Shanba, Zorblag, Ether
I guess you're right. Have you gone back to look at D4 to see who made the weakest cases on Huck, like I pointed out at the time? At least two scum were voting Huck if not three. Wouldn't you expect their cases to be the weakest because they're fabricated and knowingly false? Or at least smell funny?

Stated reasons for voting HackerHuck:

Flying under the radar, lurking, gut, the Glrok innocent result.

(My comment: the Glork result is a horrid reason to tack on, and without it, CES's read could just as easily be on CDB or Poro)

This is the main thing that I'm seeing with HH, that he just doesn't seem to be that bothered that he's not really having a great deal of influence on the game. Like, we keep seeing town corpses and he's just kind of sitting contentedly on the fact that he thinks Ether is scum. He's taken the points for taking an unsheeply stance on her but looks pretty happy not to have that tested any time soon.

Vote: HackerHuck

for now, subject to change if I find someone scummier but I'm interested enough to see where this goes.

(Not sure what I think about this. Pretty thin argument. Lazy man's genius? )

So I'm more in favour of lynching Huck today than I am MBL. VOTE: Huck

This is a really long post with very little substance

amongst a sea of lurkers. Active lurker alert.

See, saying the guy you just took your opinions from is scum is not kosher with me.

(Sound observations.)

The key things I think about Hackerhuck's play are the poor reads. It's one thing to be

wrong

, to make mistakes,

it's another to have bad analysis/reasoning for your reads. I think the latter is significantly scummier. Particularly, I'm not seeing that he has any feel for the game in the way I might expect a good townie to

- there's no sense of

when something happens

, he turns around and goes "whoa, what was that!" All the analysis he did, more or less, is rereading the thread. I think this is an indication of scumminess - I think town react far more to what's going on than scum do, and it's been setting off my gut for a while."

There is some immediate reacting going on, but when it happens it's fairly blunt. Like with inhim, he just goes "oh your claim is scummy

vote inhim

." I think that's honestly fairly opportunistic, and I think a townier approach to the wagon would involve more "WTF" and less "OMG VOTE INHIM". I'd note there's very little emotion in his play, but that

there's also little of the in depth analysis that non-passionate players (the likes of vollkan etc.) tend to thrive on.

It could be a playstyle thing, but it feels totally off.

His reads have been the same since pretty much his first post of day 2

- in particular, he's thought me and ether are scummy since his first votecount analysis thingy of that day. MBL, have your reads been the same since then? And yet he's not tunneling on us exactly. Sometimes people get locked into a viewpoint where they go "rah x is scum and damn the consequences I am gonna lynch the bastard" but then they tend to be actively pursuing the guy for as long as the madness lasts. People with weaker, less passionate reads tend to be more likely to let go. It's rare, I think, for someone to think that a person is scummy, get convinced that someone else is scummier and lynch them, and then go back to having the first guy as a mid level suspect, which is roughly how I'd characterise his play.

This is a post made mostly by my gut and theorycrafting. Logical rational shit doesn't come into it much here because a lot of my read on hackerhuck

is

gut and this is my attempt to quantify it.

(Sound observations.)

The HackerHuck lynch is find today and is probably my top choice.

A huge part of that is how he's interacted with Glork. It seems like there were a couple times when he was coming up with short lists that included Glork and somehow Glork just never got into the picture. I disliked how he reacted to the claim yesterday and he spent more energy than I think was reasonable arguing against a Glork lynch even as it became more apparent that it was a decent way to go

(but without going the over the top mindless being wrong route that Ether took.) The day one switch to a wagon that no one else was on when we were almost at deadline doesn't feel like a town move and overall I feel that he's just not a pro-town presence.

(Well-argued, nuanced point about interactions with known scum.)

Start of D4:
Ether votes Huck (1-0)
CES votes Huck (2-0)
CDB votes Huck (3-0)
The Cop votes CDB (3-1)
Ether wavers, cites Huck's vote on Porochaz
Shanba says he wants Huck dead today (4-1)

Ether

hops off Huck for a very shallow reason (3-1-1)

Ether

, why did you hop off Huck and stay off all day?

Townies give a shit. They pay attention. They take risks, hoping to lynch scum. Scum are more typically lazy, play it safe, and make mild remarks that don't get their scumpartners in much trouble and/or can't come back to bite them. Shanba, Zorblag and you sounded like townies while lynching Huck. Ether, CES and CDB didn't, and Poro didn't bother to vote or persuade despite finding Huck townish. Meanwhile, I was actively trying to get people to join CTD and me on CDB instead of afking or letting town+scum have their way or whatever. Sure, I'd make ok cases as scum. Maybe some long ones. But it's town's job to spot the truth in good cases and proclaim the casemakers town. Not to ignore the substance of cases and instead flip a coin at endgame because they think two players wouldn't have bused each other.

[MrBuddyLee]

Hey Porochaz, do you think CES is scum or not?

[MrBuddyLee]

Porochaz's behavior at present is unusual, to say the least.

[MrBuddyLee]

Aaand you can eliminate MBL-CES as a possible scumteam.

[MrBuddyLee]

Poro, based on the way today has gone, who do you think the scum are?

Gurgi, are you alive?

[MrBuddyLee]

*frowns in Gurgi's general direction*

Either both you and I vote CES, or one of us votes Porochaz. How do you lean?

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: Porochaz

[MrBuddyLee]

Good luck, town! Thanks for the fun, everyone. Especially you, Patrick.

[MrBuddyLee]

*group hug*

[MrBuddyLee]

Here, it's more fun when others gloat for you:

I would like to see a push towards a lynch. If not UT, then one of (Ythill, Glork, Shanba, Flameaxe). Go go.

CDB, DGB, Shanba, Glork, Flameaxe, Ythill. At least half those people are scum. Take your pick.

Gurgi, you did a nice job D1-D4. I think if you'd had a bit more energy/enthusiasm for the game you might have been able to pull it off.

[MrBuddyLee]

Sorry you had to put up with my shit on the earlier days, MBL.

I enjoyed playing with you. We gave the dead townies heart attacks with our squabbling, but ultimately patience prevailed. Honestly, you just approach the game totally differently than I do, and it's a challenge to try to put myself in your head without preconceived notions about how things SHOULD be seen by a townie.

Sorry, Ecto. Sorry, inHim. You guys kind of got shafted, and it was mostly by town.

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, when did you really zero in on Gurgi as scum? Honestly, the main argument for CES=scum from D5 on was that you were too confident and too right. I guess Porochaz and CDB weren't really shockers at the time, by process of elimination. But was Gurgi always pretty obvious to you? Also, was your final post of D7 an attempt to get Gurgi to target you?