micro 38: 7p micro normal

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Greetings, everybody! I'm Kimor. I've never been a huge fan of random votes; instead, I prefer to start with random questions. Once other players have responded to these random questions, I will as well; I will then post my analysis.

The questions:
1) How do you feel about random questions vs. random votes?
2) How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was Chuck Norris?
3) Do you feel confident that your faction will win this game?
4) Are you nervous right now?
5) Istanbul or Constantinople?
6) Please describe your style of play. Do you prefer logic or gut?
7) What is the difference between a pear and an apricot?

1. Both are often misused and misued greatly because people don't know how to use them. For instance - your questions are about the same as using a random number generator to vote.
2.
3. Yes.
4. No.
5.
6. Beard. (but both heads will answer gut)
7.

Vote: Kimmor

Emp can be a slight town read now.
We are out of RVS.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Quite possibly. Let's see if I act anything like him;

Why U noh v0te!?!

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Though, in retrospect, maybe I should answer 'pipe' or something now, hurmm...

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Kimor is not scum for the RVS.

Why not?

How do you know that my questions are the same as using a random number generator? Even if they are, why is that worse than actually using a random number generator?

1. Okay...well, when you do your "analysis" make sure to let me know so i can see the amazing brilliance of those questions at work.
2. I never said it was worse - why do you think I did?

Do you feel that random questions make somebody more likely to be scum?

No.
I think useless random questions do.

How many games has everyone played?

Dunno.
Why aren't you voting yet?
Hint: Kimor is prob. scum.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Kimor

1. Uh-huh.
2. Even though I actually never said or intimated anything of the sort...I'm going to predict you're not using 'logic' as your scumhunting method.
3. Because town should be trying to scumhunt and scum would prefer to simply fake scumhunting so as to avoid attention, y'know, do something that looks pro-town on the surface, postpone having to give any reads or opinions until the lay of the land of the game has already been established, and even set up a situation where they're the flowpoint of conversation rather than doing anything that might have someone call them on a comment. Y'know, something scummy like that, I suppose.

@Ovyo - here's a newbie tip for you.

When someone asks you a direct question - either answer it or mention that you aren't, that way they don't need to repeat themselves. That's what an upstanding gentlemen would do.

Why aren't you voting yet?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Not voted because, hell I dunno why. At this point everyone is treated as scum.

Vote: TwoUpstandingGentlemen for trying to influence me.

Oh, i missed this.
Withdraw previous issue.
Insert new issue.

If I was scum trying to influence you (by rather you voting than not voting...because...y'know, not voting helps the town situation...?)
Why would you succumb to my scum plan and vote?

Also, what's your read on Kimor and Empking?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Emp - Robo looks like town to me - agree/disagree?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Though, in retrospect, maybe I should answer 'pipe' or something now, hurmm...

Not bad.

The questions

:
1) RQS > RVS, certainly.
2) What wood?
3) Almost as confident as I am in my continuing to be unemployed.
4) Horny more than anything, really.
5) Whichever one agrees to kill They Might Be Giants for that god-awful song.
6) I'd like to say logic but I think we all know it's

gut

pipe.
7) ... Fuck if I know. I don't eat healthy things.

Robo

: YOU SEE NAAAASEENG.

I'm guessing the other head of that hydra is Majiffy based on his flowchart of how to win games and that sig.

Yeah I was contemplating putting the flowchart in the sig of this one too.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Oh wow this game is only 7 people? I thought it was 9...

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Side note, I'm Neto

Are you also a hydra or are you playing as just one head this game?

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

He's an alt, Majiffy.

@Robo - why u n0 votez!1!!>?
At least list a top suspect and/or town read.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

That's the best you can offer when a good portion of the player list was waiting for specifically your answers?
You're pathetic.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

TUG - Seems almost as if he's trying to start an early, easy bandwagon which, in a setup as small as ours, can be dangerous. Still, not answering these questions seems to be in line with Thor's playstyle, and I am not surprised at the answers that I got.

There's two of us here. Hence the name. Don't ignore me, please.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Though I'll admit it's easy to miss a flame next to the Sun, so...

I can't help but note all the Ovyo hate - but thus far that slot doesn't even look scummy to me, just newbie. Kimor continues to look scummy because he dings our slot for starting in on an "easy" wagon (and why he thinks he's an easy wagon and *also* that our vote is just random...well, I'll just presume he's scum and is making gak up) But, in any case, he tags us for that...and then marches in on the newbie flavor of the week and acts like he's relevant.

@Robo - come fight me and explain how we are remotely a scum read. Because you're derping.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Ovyo also joined the site two days ago.


-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Robo - are you *actually* expecting a reaction test out of me in RVS without reasoning? I mean, insomuch as one I couldn't fake if I so desired...seriously? Get a real vote out there now, kthxbai.

Also, it actually really does matter how long ago they joined site, or are you claiming Ovyo understands the "benefits" of playing the newbie card? Because, you and I both now in even a Newbie game there are no benefits and actually people tend to whip out a policy lynch on the issue. At that point Ovyo is either a very experienced player who is scum and is going for some kind of double blind bluff by playing the card...or it's just because he's a derp newb who is playing it because he's a newb and doesn't know if it's a good or a bad thing and all it's actually telling us is that he's a newb. (like, y'know, voting someone because he doesn't think he should be pressured into voting someone - derp)

Congratulations, you have discovered a null tell.

Now, turn your head a bit to the side, and look at the guy slavering in the corner over lynching the obv. newb but who doesn't want to vote them yet because there are too many votes on said newb just this second, but gosh he wants it known he encourages it. Also, look at his *amazing* reads off his random questions - including such deep revelations as "Thor is playing like Thor" and the not to be missed "Cheery seems honest but I don't like how he did this...but I'll list him as my top town read despite having multiple players I *don't* list having any issues with yet" fencesit double talk.

Yeah, that guy.

Then vote him.
or
Explain why you shouldn't...like, y'know, I asked you to already.
And you didn't.
Because that's not suspect at all.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Oh yeah, that was a great post that totally crushed me. Pardon me while I work up the bravery to self vote because I am so owned as to have become useless.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

you seem to be doing an awful lot of bullying. I'm just not sure that it's scum or your normal playstyle.

not answering these questions seems to be in line with Thor's playstyle,

Oh, wait.
Trololololol.

Okay.

@Robo - as someone here who is probably aware of my playstyle - um, you think someone could have researched me enough to grok my attitude towards dumb RQS and *not* be aware of how I push cases? C'mon now, prove to me you aren't his scum buddy, maybe it will buy you an extra day...

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

We
ll also point out that I actually leveled some serious accusations at Kimor and he ignored them in order to limp wrist wuss slap me in a roundabout way that is best translated as "stop trying to get people to lynch me, how do you know I'm scum, waaaah!"

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Robo - as someone here who is probably aware of my playstyle - um, you think someone could have researched me enough to grok my attitude towards dumb RQS and *not* be aware of how I push cases? C'mon now, prove to me you aren't his scum buddy, maybe it will buy you an extra day...

Hell, make this;

@Cheery
and
@Empking too (though Emp is already voting correctly)

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

That's not the way it works. You don't say to somebody, "Vote for X!", then they do it unless they can refute your "brilliant" case.

Wait I thought that's exactly how the world works. Well damn.

-Majiffy

P.S. I just received word from our top investigative journalists that it is

indeed

how the world works.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I was talking about your post.

Uh-huh...

Now answer my question about Kimor's meta study on me. Go ahead, you can do it, shock the world and address the game state.

I didn't take them seriously because they weren't serious. You made no case, and therefore I have nothing to respond to. I'm not a newbie, and I'm not going to run around with my arms flailing because somebody looked at me funny.

Okay...

I have made a case on you.
You *did* dodge addressing it.

Allow me to help you and restate it using small words and focused on your obvious lie that means that we should already have lynched you if town had three brain cells to rub together.

1. You "assess" my answer to your RVS by saying I'm playing to my playstyle.
2. You call me suspect for how I'm pushing votes...but distance from it with an offhand comment about being unsure if that's normal for me.

SO! Let's look at that. You apparently researched my playstyle or played with me enough to understand how I react to (derp) RQS. But, in all of that reading and looking you NEVER LEARNED HOW I PUSH WAGONS.
I do not believe that. It is a lie. It means you are either lying about not knowing that, or you were lying about knowing how I react to RQS. That means you're faking your scumhunting, and that means your role PM is not town.
It is known.

Now, feel free to respond to the case I haven't made.

The game I played with you didn't have RQS happening so I'm not entirely familiar with your stance on that (besides the quick skims I made during that game), though I do know you push people into having votes out during the early stages.

Uh huh.
I'd like to see you respond too.

I am finding it rather odd that battousai chose to response to all the questions with 42 though.

I guess no one hitchhikes anymore.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Ovyo - I'm giving you a special callout because you're a

Derp newb

girl, and I'm an upstanding gentleman.

First, you probably owe it to yourself to spend som time in a newbie with a decent IC because you don't really seem to know how to scumhunt.
Second - start scumhunting, because I don't have time for a policy lynch for you.

Here's a shocking hint on how to do this, a wonderful step by step guide;

1. When next you post - read the other posts first.
2. Then, think about what people are saying about each other.
3. Decide what your opinion is of their opinions (are they good, bad, don't mke sense to you, obv. pants on head, whatever)
4. POST THOSE THOUGHTS!
5. (elite step for amazing people) Ask a question or two based on those thoughts, and request feedback from others on your thoughts.

Try to avoid the following;

1. Explaining how much.little experience you have (few care)
2. Explaining your gender (few care...though maybe you'll get more correct pronouns if it matters to you)
3. Making a comment that doesn't help you find scum in any way whatsoever.

Hope that helps. Theoretically on my main account I am thought of as helpful with the newbs.
Though mostly I just make fun of them...

Now, play the game or replace out, pl0x!

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

TUG, you are trying a bit too hard right now.

Specifically post 69.

This is not the Thor/Majiffy that I would sheep blindly on any day.

Do you or do you not think I just caught scum in a lie?
Simple question.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Robo - do you think he honestly knows about how I would react to TQS and *also* doesn't know how I would push a case?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Because that is what he is claiming.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I'm actually having to walk you through this, aren't I? Okay...

Okay, so you think it's legit that he understands one and doesn't understand the other. A few questions to consider then;

Q: Why do you think he understands the one (how I react to RQS)?
A: Because he read one (or more) games with me in them - at the very least the early stages of the game.

Q: If he did that, how much is the minimum amount of reading he would do?
A: At the very least, let's say the first 2-3 pages of a game, enough for someone to ask RQS and have me respond to them.

Q: How many games would he have read?
A: At least one, and for it to be "normal" for me I'll go ahead and assume he checked 2-3 games since I don't always have people ask RQS to me.

Q: Go look at any random 2-3 games of Thor's - do you think you'll find *ONE* where Thor isn't pushing a case in the way he *literally always* pushes a case?
A: ...?

Q: If he found it worthwhile to do research on how I respond to RQS - why wouldn't he do the same thing with how I push cases?
A: Because he's lying about one of the instances.

Q: Why would he lie?
A: He's scum.


Where am I wrong, Robo?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Hey, Looked at my 6 most recently completed games (none of which have RQS in them) and I advocate lynching without a case, speed lynching, demanding that people sheep me, demanding that people get votes in play, ect. ect. in all of them.

He must have done a *VERY* narrow viewed set of research on me to know about how I respond to RQS while still having literally no understanding in how I advance cases or act in the early stages of the game.

Busted scum folks.
You heard it here first.
I will mock you post game if you don't notice this, I have no shame.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=13188

Found that.
No RQS.
No other games with you that I found.
I do openly state in that game that I think RVS and early aggression is a good thing.
I'll admit I actually don't really believe that you remembered something from over two and a half years ago regardless.

Look forward to the full response when you have "time"

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Dude, you aren't Thor. You are Thor/Majiffy

He has played with Thor, but not with Majiffy.

What does he know about Majiffy? Nothing.
What does he know about Thor? Something.

How does his knowledge of either of our metas pertain to the fact that he's made a pretty blatant lie?

This is not the Robo I'm used to having sheep me.

In regards to Kimor's meta-statement; do you think a person's meta is unlikely to change over a 1-3 year period? Because 2009-2012 is 3 years, bucko.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Majiffy, 3 years notwithstanding, the more shocking thing is he claims to remember something from 'X' years ago, but remembered it wrong (unless he finds a game I didn't) and also used that 3 year old incorrect knowledge as part of his "assessing" RQS. He is faking scumhunting so hard it's painful.

You and I also need to discuss the read on Robo, because I think I'm agreeing with that strain - to the QT!

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I don't think it's that shocking that he's recalling something incorrectly. Kind of fucked up he didn't check though.

See you at the QT.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

But I'm enjoying the authentic schizophrenic experience.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I can hardly take my own eyes off of it.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

ITS A BLATANT LIE HES OBVSCUM, KILL ON SIGHT

Seriously. Thats you. Thats what you sound like right now.

Um...yeah, I agree - because it's the right thing to do. Feel free to explain to me how it's not either a lie or how it's a lie that isn't indicative of scum though - that might be worth hearing.

Remember Post 79? I'm still waiting for you to tell me where I was wrong, y'know.

Also, please stop talking to yourself in thread.

Why?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Also, what kept TUG from doing something else more constructive?

You mean like creating pressure, making a case, and pursuing it?
Like we did?
Something like that?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Actually that was me, Majiffy signs his posts and I don't.

I also am the one who made the bulk of the case - care to address it since you skipped immediately over it to have some sort of personal feud with half of this player slot?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Being a dick and creating pressure are two different things.

Moving forward, I think I'll ignore anything addressed to me by Majiffy.

I'm so excited I get to use the same picture in two games in the same day.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

That last post was by Majiffy.

-Majiffy.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

(which there was; Batt's pretty strongly scumhunting which in a 7p game makes him close to conftown.)

Strongly scumhunting? By disregarding 1/2 of a playerslot which he (while, albeit not incorrectly) assumes is an asshole based off... what? Nothing? I've never even played a game with him.

No, he's far from "strongly scumhunting".

I see nothing in here that says that a TUG/Robo scumteam would NOT be good looking.

Well we made a pretty good scum team together, adding Thor into the mix would just make it sexier... So I think refuting that we would make a good-looking scum team is akin to smashing your face into a brick wall and wondering why your forehead hurts.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

And disregarding a half of a player, citing a playstyle tell claiming it to be an alignment tell is "strongly scumhunting"... how?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

-Majiffy

It's really hard to remember signing.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

By all means, elaborate me on your read of him, then.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Unimpressed. Your case against me is that you dislike RQS and that I forgot how a game went years ago. Shockingly enough, I don't remember everything that occurs to me, and I don't remember every game I played before. Imagine that. Is this seriously what passes for play these days?

My case against you is that you provably lied in a way no town would lie.
Also - I'll add to it now you're trying to dance away from even addressing the case. Remember when you were going to do that when you had more "time"?
I do.

Thor

- You mean, this case?
[case on Kimor]
Why do you want me to address it?

Because you accused this slot of being scummy for not doing anything - so I want to know your opinion on the case this slot made because it is both;

a) doing something
and
b) a relevant and major point in the thread that you haven't addressed, like...y'know, you haven't addressed much of anything yet.

@TUG
I never said that it wasn't a lie.
I never said that he was town.

What I did say was that your way of calling him scum is ridiculous and scummy.

You started it off with calling him scum for RQS. Which is just dumb and ignorant.
Then you called his assessment BS. What did you expect? instant catching of scum from a couple of fluff RQS questions?
Then you went into this whole giant mess about how he BLATANTLY lied.

His reaction is clearly coolheaded and logical. I can see a town tell in that alone.

Yet you continue to bash him for something that YOU blew out of proportion to use as a weapon against him.

Oy vey.

1. The RQS thing was an RVS vote, that you miss that is kinda derp on you, not on me.
2. I didn't call his assessment BullSmurf in general, I did ask him questions about some specific logical holes he had. I never claimed he should have caught scum.
3. And I think we're agreeing he blatantly lied, and everyone but me is apparently putting their fingers in their ears nd going 'nyah-nyah, can't hear yooooou' about it - for reasons I still fail to understand.

He has acted "calm" by avoiding explaining the lie other than a vague suggestion he remembered things wrong...when I showed there was never even an RQS situation for him to remember wrong...so, sure. I'm certain that will calm me down.

Then you tell me I'm "blowing things out of proportion"
How am I doing that?
Again - tell me where I'm wrong in this post.
Tell me where I'm wrong in my other post.
Then go find evidence that when I bust scum i don't get loud about it.
Derp, Robo, you are derping hard or you are a pathetic scumbuddy - let me know which it is.

I'm chatty when there's stuff I can talk about (and I quite likely would have joined in some of the talk that was going on around here 10 hours ago had I not gone to bed)

You aren't voting.
You aren't asking people questions.
You're barely weighing in on anything.
When are you getting out of bed, exactly?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

A short and sweet post;

Kimor has been proving to be a liar.
His "defense" thus far is that he remembered wrong.
I have provided evidence that shows if he "remembered wrong" it was by inventing stuff - because what he sayshe remembered wrong (my reaction to RQS...which he was accurate about) NEVER HAPPENED IN OUR ONLY GAME TOGETHER.

This is another lie.

Everyone else continues to ignore this.
Please, PLEASE, explain to me how he is remotely possibly town in any way at all at this stage.
I'm all ears.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

If you actually think the level of my attack is out of sort - yeah, you should replace out. Because it isn't and your response is far ruder than anything I've said - or please go and quote me calling anyone arrogant, or conceited, yadda, yadda, hey.

And I've already said that I didn't think you remembered that game - I just claimed you were lying.
You're the one who claimed to remember it enough to make a meta call on me.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

1. I didn't take offense, I just said you had been ruder than me, thus making your point spurious.
2. Your lack of replace out and continued mocking suggests to me that you actually weren't offended and this was all a strategic ploy.
3. Also, you're using this to continue to distract from the multiple lies you've told in thread and how you're obv. scum - but it won't work.

Anything I'm missing?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

A blatant lie? No. A mistake? Perhaps.

And for everyone else - THIS IS A SCUM CLAIM AND I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHY.

That is all.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I have responded to the case. I have responded to it multiple times.

I did not research your playstyle before coming into this game. I did not remember our one game together correctly. It happened 3 years ago.

Tell me, TUG,

what did you have for lunch on this day 3 years ago? Do you remember a specific board game you played 3 years ago? What moves were made?

How about a specific movie? I demand answers. Also, note that YOU did not remember this game, you had to look it up.

A blatant lie? No. A mistake? Perhaps.

But that's not really what I'm concerned about right now.

Stop deflecting. The point was that you pushed on Thor based on meta you have now admitted you had no knowledge of. You made a claim, and that claim was on the presumption of knowledge. The knowledge was proven false. Your claim, thus, had no backing. This is not a mistake, this is a

lie

.

TUG continues to be scummy. I'm perfectly fine with that lynch.

Why do you continue to ignore obvious scum?

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Ah yes, when you can't argue it, just ignore it!

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

No, when you've argued it 3 times

and aren't willing to change the facts, you ignore it.

I forgot. There are a million ways to say it, but I do not have the patience to say it in any other ways. Certainly not for someone like you.

So you submit, then, that Thor's argument against you is constructed of facts, and you're thus submitting that you are scum and you're ignoring it in the hopes that it just goes away. Glad we could clear that up.

-Majiffy

P.S. Battousai, I've yet to hear

why

you think we're scummy.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I said that I thought that not liking random questions was in line with Thor's playstyle. I based this on vague recollections of a game 3 years ago. I did not research it. I forgot most of it. I did not deny this at any point. These facts I concede.

I do not concede this "blatant lie" that you keep rambling on about. I made a mistake, but I did not lie - I said what I remembered or thought that I remembered.

So you concede you made a point claiming knowledge wherein you had no knowledge of the subject.

This is conceding to a lie. No matter how you try to downplay it.

Which leads me to;
2) Conceding that you are lying leads directly to conceding you're scum, as elaborated in my last post.
3) I posit you're hoping it goes away because you're caught scum, and you think downplaying it from a lie to a "mistake" - protip: it's a lie - will get you off the hook.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Ah yes, when you can't argue it, just ignore it!

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

By all means, continue completely disregarding that you've claimed scum. It'll make lynching you much easier once everyone else pulls their heads out of their asses.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Forgot to switch accounts. Sorry about that.

Empking and Ovyo need to speak more.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Is there a reason you're not voting to follow up that assessment?

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

You could give up and self-vote so we can start looking for your buddy. Just a thought.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Are you serious, Robo? He made a claim that was proven false. This claim is stemming from knowledge that is required to have made the claim. He later agreed he did not have such knowledge. How else would you classify making such a claim, in such a situation, other than a blatant lie?

You're either failing hard as a townie, or failing even harder as a scumbuddy. Either way, you're failing hard.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Robo - since (oddly) I'm the reasonable head here, let me just try to point out a few simple points.

1. I have asked you on a couple of occasions to point out where we're factually wrong.
2. You defend him by saying we're just making mountains of molehills.

I take that as acceptance we are factually right, and your *only* issue is that, for some reason, you take this comment as a-ok.

Just tell me - you think it's normal and fine for a town player to use a game from three years ago that he thinks he remembers (even though he has admitted that is preposterous as part of his defense statements) as part of his scumhunting?

Then when people ask him about it, expressing doubts of his memory he reavows that it is correct.

Then when evidence is provided that proves he is wrong...he just says 'well it wasn't a lie' but doesn't even admit to being wrong?

That's normal and town to you?
And if it is - why?

Because that's the part neither Majiffy or I see. We can't fathom a town player who could and would do that - why can you?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

That's not the way it works. You don't say to somebody, "Vote for X!", then they do it unless they can refute your "brilliant" case. That's my biggest concern - you seem to be doing an awful lot of bullying. I'm just not sure that it's scum or your normal playstyle.

I mean, just look at this - up to this point he remembered a gam clearly enough to believe he knows how I respond to RQS...but he claims to have NO AWARENESS OF MY PLAYSTYLE.

None.

Except, y'know, how I react to RQS, that he remembers from a gam three years ago and it is a valid recollection.
This does not add up.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I'm going to presume that utter silence for 24 hours means that the awkwardness of the attempt speed lynch on my slot and the obviousness of the scum that needs lynching in Kimor has just left the rest of you confused about what to do next.
It's okay, you can ease into it.
Majiffy and I are practicing comedy routines and trying to figure out the scumbuddy in our QT anyway, so we're not particularly bored...just amazed at the awkward opinions and the lack of opinions presented in this thread.

Because, y'know, we're *sure* silence and refusing to discuss things will help town win.
We're gullible like that.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Thor

Tug is...incredibly wrong.

In what way?

@Robo - conversely, neither Majiffy or I can figure out what you're spewing and we've basically concluded you're the scumbuddy because the defense makes no sense to us.

I'll try yet again;

1. I will happily agree it was a minor point he lied about.
2. I will add, that he also later said it was pretty ridiculous for him to have this recollection - even though at the time he acted like it was a reasonable recollection.
3. I will also note, that he used the lie while scumhunting...which is kind of the point of why it's so important.

So, he agrees that it is pretty crazy to have good recollections from that long ago, BUT he uses those recollections when scumhunting (also known as - his sole purpose in this game if he isn't scum).

To my mind there is literally only two ways to take that information.

1. He doesn't give one fig about scumhunting and is not just useless town, but useless town that will lie and act like he's being helpful basically ruining town's chances because...I dunno, he decided he hates this game really early and wants to help scum win.
2. He is scum, and lied because he was a touch lazy and wanted to look like he was doing good scumhunting.

What do you see as the third option there, Robo?
If you don't see a third option, what do you see as the appropriate course of action for options 1 and 2 (and how do we figure out the difference)?
Also, Ockhams...

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

IT WAS A CLAIM PROVEN FALSE
BLATANT LYING

it was only some minor assessment about a sentence long

BUT IT IS TECHNICALLY A CLAIM
AND I PROVED IT FALSE
SO HE IS BLATANTLY LYING
MUST MEAN HE IS SCUM
cmon TUG, you can't honestly believe that the crap you are spewing is a legitimate reason to lynch someone.

Unless you're going to argue that his blatant lying isn't indicative of him being scum, I'd like to hear what your big problem is, here.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

"Be the change you want to see in the mafia game" - Not even remotely close to Mahatmas Gandhi, despite always being credited with the quote.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

The activity level in this game is appallingly bad.

Ovyo hasn't posted in 3 days. Everyone else has posted in less than 24 hours, but we haven't had any meaningful discussion in about a page. Everyone that isn't Kimor or Robo, you need to read and weigh in on the case on Kimor and the ensuing argument and reactions by all three major parties involved.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

TUG, it was a minor point, you just agreed it was a minor point.

Last time I checked we don't lynch if they have their shoes untied.

It was a small thing.

You made it into a big thing.

No. It's a small mistake that shows a big thing.

Again - explain why town would do it.
Just explain that.
Because if you can't, it doesn't matter if the slip was about a small point, the *concept and thinking* behind the slip shows scum intent.

You've seen me use this before to catch scum.
So has Cheery. So has Emp. Probably Batt too for all I know.
This is aggravating to the extreme.

In fact - hold that thought;

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=22633

Oh, snap - there's the exact scumtell as this game.
Incorrect usage of meta information while being caught in a lie about it. Boom.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22070

There's another - though it's in a different form, but scum laughing on something they admitted they were doing is most assuredly the same deal as kind of awkwardly not admitting you've made a mistake when you're using that as your defense at the same time.

I bet I can find more.
I bet you can't find me using it wrong.

Go ahead - make my bemused day.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

PEdit: Town makes mistakes just like scum do.

But do they lie?
Because you've agreed with me it was a lie.
Everything he's saying says it was a lie.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Batt - find me an example of town doing it and then not wanting to admit to being wrong and I'll sheep you for the rest of the day.

I'm banging my head on this because IT'S BUSTED SCUM FER CRYIN' OUT!

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Batt - if you were a Day cop witha guilty and were told to "move on to a scumbuddy because you're clogging the game" all while people are actually refusing to disprove you as a Daycop - would you move?

If you know it happens theoretically you can already limit yourself to your games...
I will go on record as I have never seen it happen. I've certainly been town and seen town with gakked up recollections - but when called on it they always just go right away "derp, my bad" and move on.
Kimor didn't do that, he actually obfuscated it more and then *used as his defense that it was unreasonable to expect people to remember things clearly when he decided to do that as a scumhunting effort*

Frankly, town, just lynch me.
This is disgusting.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Batt - tell you what though, get Robo to L-1 and I'll speed hammer him for laughs, that's a promise.

now, vote Kimor.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I don't have a lot of time to respond right now, but I should clear something up. My prior account was Netopalis. Thor and I played 1-2 games together during 2009-2011. I may not remember everything, but I do remember that I asked some random questions once and Thor didn't like them. I don't remember Thor being as aggressive. Forgive me for not remembering every detail of half of your playing style.

Here's his initial reply.
He remembers things FINE!

Shockingly enough, I don't remember everything that occurs to me, and I don't remember every game I played before. Imagine that. Is this seriously what passes for play these days?

Here's a follow up reply later.
Okay, sorry guys, i don't remember things fine, but it was a MISTAKE!

Tell me, TUG, what did you have for lunch on this day 3 years ago? Do you remember a specific board game you played 3 years ago? What moves were made? How about a specific movie? I demand answers. Also, note that YOU did not remember this game, you had to look it up.

Here's a final rebuttal (you remember, from the point in the game he was so offended by me he was going to replace out...and then acted fine afterwards)

What does he say? Oh, yeah, it's UNREASONABLE TO EXPECT ANYONE TO RECALL SUCH THINGS.

Yeah...

So it went from fine recollection to be used in scumhunting to it's unreasonable to even expect people to remember these things.
He
is
scum.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I will even add, because I forgot about it, he's leveling accusations at me because I needed to look the game up.
Because...that matters to what my accusation is in any way at all...or, wait, right, is just scum hurling mud, natch.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Since apparently people need a refresher


Vote Kimor.
-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I will even add, because I forgot about it, he's leveling accusations at me because I needed to look the game up.
Because...that matters to what my accusation is in any way at all...or, wait, right, is just scum hurling mud, natch.

I have said nowhere that you are scum. Your doggedness, however, is forcing me to reconsider that position. What you are doing now is called distraction.

1. If you want to play exact word games 'I never said you called me scum, I said you leveled an accusation at me'
2. Yes, you *did* level an accusation at me.

Will you self vote if I quote it?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Scum? You're definitely scum, I just am not sure of your alignment.

And also, trololol for playing the exact word game

Though that post is the relevant one for the accusation - natch.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Robo - thanks for avoiding discussing the points of the case still.

@Kimor - thanks for avoiding discussing how you just made up a false argument, applied it to me, and then ignoring when I called you on it. Invariably no one else but me will notice, yet again, for reasons I can't grok.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

For what it's worth, if we weren't attached at the vote, I'd join you.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

You say that like your vote isn't based off early actions in the game.
You say that like, somehow, the page number a tell happened on matters in any way at all.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

A) You admitted that you don't know if TUG is scum or town with 100% certainty.
B) You admitted that if TUG is scum, it is unlikely that I am also scum.
C) You admitted that your vote on me is based wholly on following TUG.

Therefore, you must either be 100% certain of TUG's being town, or you must be scum yourself trying to avoid responsibility for a mislynch.

That's a false dichotomy and you know it.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Hardly. If he is trusting you implicitly with no strong other reasons for believing that I am scum, he is therefore assuming that you have a pro-town motivation in trying to get him to vote for me.

It does not, however, imply 100% certainty. Thus, false dichotomy.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

And being an "abject idiot" does not necessitate scum.

Still stands that what you offered in way of argument was a false dichotomy.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

-Majiffy

I really hate having to remember to sign.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Is your entire defense whenever you're wrong about something is to cover your face with your hand and ask your accusers to shut up? This is the second time you've been

proven

wrong this game, and all you do is say "shut up, shut up, go away, I'm ignoring you!"

Anyone who isn't Kimor's partner (Robo, here's lookin' at you, kid) should be voting Kimor right now. This play screams scum.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I'm disagreeing with you on the fact that stupidity is a scumtell. It isn't. And that is the exact claim you're positing by the false dichotomy you posed.

So I suppose you can keep hiding your face, sticking your fingers in your ears and going la-la-la I can't hear you! or whatever other nonsensical childish forms of disregard you feel is appropriate. But one thing IS for certain: lying, obfuscating the truth to hide your lies, and ignoring completely valid arguments are all legitimate scumtells. And you are performing all of them at full speed with no idea where the break is.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

This switching accounts thing is starting to piss me off. Mod, please delete the previous.

So you think he's scum because he's doing something that town could do but he is specifically doing because he's scum?
Yeah, that's not circular at all. Totally legitimate argument there.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I KNEW ALL ALONG THAT YOU WERE MAJIFFY

THOU CANNOT HIDE FROM ROBO

I made it pretty clear... with like every post I've made in the game.
That whole... signing things as Majiffy? Yeah.

Town could do it, but I think it's more likely that he is more intelligent than that.

So you think an action that could easily be made by a moron regardless of alignment is more likely an action being taken as intelligent scum who thinks that if they act null-dumb that town will think they're town for being dumb?

Not only is that the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard, Ockham is rolling over in his grave.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

G$# D@%$ M!$#@&$&U$$**#*#*&%&$&# SIGNING

-Majiffy.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Is this a three player mafia game?
Fucking speak, people.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Funny thing, that.

a. Stop repeating your case over and over and driving activity down. (Yes, I'm crediting this decline to you. This game is getting kind of uninteresting)

My most recent point on you didn't actually have anything to do with the case that Robo was talking about here.

I'll get out of bed when the arguing stops, currently all this complaining at each other is making me want to stay in longer.

Arguing in a mafia game?! You don't say!
How the fuck else do you expect to lynch someone? Politely asking themselves to resign by self-voting? Lolno.

So I repeat myself;

Is this a three player mafia game?
Fucking speak, people.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Well maybe if people readily offered up their opinions on things such as the arguments (and saying "uhhh this argument is STOOPID"

isn't

a valid opinion, regardless of your opinion on the potential of validity in opinions) we could move on.
But instead, we have a bunch of retards stuffing their fingers up their asses and saying "LOL ILL SPEAK WHEN WE MOVE ON", and we CAN'T until either we lynch Kimor or people start fucking talking.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

So no comment on the fact that Kimor's attack on Cheery stemmed from a false dichotomy, and then when called out on it, denies it entirely and then essentially uses a circular argument as a restatement of his case? And then when called out on that, returns to just ignoring me? No comment at all? Really?

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Of course not. Why would anyone bother reading a mafia game they play in?

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

UNVOTE: Kimor

I look forward to lynching you down the line.
Conferring with Thor, we'll decide who should be strung up and get back to you.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

It doesn't have to do with the claim. It has to do with the person who claimed the claim.
Thor hasn't responded yet in the QT, so I can't speak for him.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

With Thor, I can understand not voting right away, but he should have a kimor scumpartner in mind.

We do. We're both confident a Kimor scumflip confirms Robo as partner.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

These boots were made for votin'

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

AV, you're voting the person who has been the primary advocate of the lynch of the person you're calling scum. Does this make sense to you? Because it doesn't make sense to me.

-Majiffy

P.S. I think Thor died.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I think your 1 is false as town can have exact opposite reads from other town and still be of like-alignments. It happens.

2 is most definitely false, as his question is a hypothetical question intended as a lead to a follow-up question to destroy your argument.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

... fucking signing.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I was mildly aroused by that PM.
Thor is still dead. (read as: ignoring me? He picked up the PM I sent him) Considering replacing out because I really only joined this to play as a hydra with Thor.
I'll do some thinking on the matter and get back to you.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Sun'of a...

Thor hasn't responded yet in the QT, so I can't speak for him.

-Majiffy

Hullo, Majiffy pulled me back.

I'd stopped caring about the town in any way at all...and also have a bad habit of this, but whatevs, here are thoughts.

there are 2 spots not voting anyone now (Thor and cheery). With Thor, I can understand not voting right away, but he should have a kimor scumpartner in mind.

You don't think the claim might have thrown a wrench in those works?
Considering [ongoing] with a flip, I'm actually of the mind that Kimor is almost assured town.
Considering it's a closed setup (also known as 'not mountainous - derp) and town probably has *a* PR then Kimor is either confirmed town or confirmed scum with a counter claim. In either case we aren't touching him.

Makes sense, Thor/Majiffy and Neto are a smart enough team to pull off a massive distancing act.

Whether I think that is the case or not is not relevant.

But it is definitely possible.

This is terrible - seriously, everyone should re-read it and tell me they think it's awesome because nobody called him on it.
Especially AV, who has a town read here apparently.

Last minute wagon I'm willing to jump on: Kimor

Wagon i wish would happen: TUG

Tell me more about this.

Since, TUG spent *all fething day* screaming about Kimor.
And you called Kimor town and TUG scum for it.
And you refused to even read the case.
And now you want to drift onto Kimor with the case of him being scumbuddies with TUG for some reason.

Vote: Robocopter

Majiffy hasn't confirmed that one yet, but I don't foresee him as likely to argue it.
Will confer in QT with my current reads and come back to offer our 'also ran' scumtell.
But, yeah, we want Robo quite dead, I assure you.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I am capable (indeed, my Best maf award was basically earned for such) - but look at it again.

He doesn't say he even believes it was distancing.
He's voting a previous town read because of that logic.

There's a disconnect there, a big one.

Why do you think he's town? Too useless and obvious to be scum or something?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Because he didn't answer the RVQs. That's town.

@Robo - you did call Kimor 'not scummy' though.
And you called me scummy for tunneling on him and blowing a case out of proportion.
I did draw some logical conclusions from that, and your sudden push on him as soon as you got some attention on yourself and he had claimed a PR just looks bad.

@Batt - it was a derp hammer, but let's be frank, unless someone else claims PR than Kimor, good or bad player, is conf. town. Besides, only derp scum is likely to avoid trying to kill him tonight.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

And I am a retard, and so might be Kimor...


@KIMOR!

Right now declare who you're jailing.
This claim only counts if Robo flips scum - if he flips town you may jail whomever.
But I will have that claim.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Thor came, Thor left. I'll try to keep on him to stay active.
Argument today was a waste of my time.

VOTE: No Lynch
-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I agree with mass claim.
Batt should popcorn.

I hate you all for no lynching - especially Majiffy.
Seriously - who did you expect scum to kill? Emp, Cherry, or AV? Derp-da-derp.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I hate you all for no lynching - especially Majiffy.

Carry on.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Claim: Flying Vatican Assassin

I have a couple of powers.

Flying: I am immune to any night action targeting me.
Power of the Papal States: I reflect any power targeting me back onto its user.
Spear of Sanguinus: I can target people at night - if they are scum they die, if they are town they also die, but are resurrected as an Innocent Child the next day.

We decided to ask the mod to run as as a VT though.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

We will vote either Emp or AV today.

Debate is ongoing.
Need to figure out which one Batt looks like the better buddy to as well, because I think Batt is the buddy.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Because Majiffy sucks.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

But, let me be clear on this, the no lynch yesterday was blatantly pro-scum.
Batt made the suggestion.
He is scum.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

We had a ruddy confirmed town - I'd told everyone he was confirmed town - and we no lynched to "improve our chances of hitting scum"

Because, y'know, the scum won't kill the confirmed guy.
Derpa-derpa.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Ugh.

Batt started it.
It saved AV from lynch.
Emp (a guy who wanted AV dead) hammered it through.

Hate you ALL.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

The only way it makes sense is as a test of Kimor...but if that was the plot we should have massclaimed yesterday *before* deciding on a no lynch.
Hate.
Hate.
Hate.

@AV - so you are saying you would help lynch Batt - would you do it in preference to an Emp lynch y/n? As in, if I would magically sheep whichever you suggested - which would it be?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Really?

After starting up the day bringing up how Emp was scummy? (and, specifically - scum)
And also, with the save of the no lynch yesterday being a save of your juicy yellow backside?
And also even saying you were thinking of a debate between Batt and TUG?

I'm leaning Batt/AV now.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I actually thought you were agreeing with massclaim and then in a separate comment calling him scum as a continuation of your logic from yesterday wherein you were calling him likely scum for being jailed on a no kill night (and also calling out the JKer, but that's beside the point).
I guess my scum play does suck.
Good thing it doesn't matter in this instance.

So, after all the stuff yesterday Batt really is your number one call on scum?
What happened to the Emp read to drop him as less scummy than me or Batt?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

You were a watcher and didn't watch the other PR?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

And Emp is a top suspect.
So you *watched* him?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

No.

He is a investigative role.
There was no kill after the claim of a protective role.
You keep your Smurf on that protective role if you go no lynch as a test for them - that's how it works.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Gah, and he even claimed he thought it was either you or Kimor as scum and decided to test *Kimor* even though the concept of you as scum would make *perfect sense* that no one targeted Kimor night 1.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

When did Majiffy do that? I searched the iso and am too dumb to find it.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Actually I was the one calling Batt scum, not Majiffy.

But, yeah, I'm not surprised by that vote - if I'm not speed hammered I know who I'm voting.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Vote: Batt

I said *I* thought he was scum.
Then I cussed out Majiffy because he's disagreeing with me and didn't want to put the vote there, but we did both agree that you or Emp were scum.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Unvote: Batt
Vote: AV

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Which reason?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

...yes, I agree that the reasons Majiffy and I are expressing come from town perspective...? You have lost me I think, unless this is the worst gambit attempt ever.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Unvote: AV

@AV - Watcher watching not claimed PR Day 2 - your thoughts?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

If he thought Emp was the N1 kill target, that means Kimor stopped it. If Kimor stopped it, he should believe Kimor's JK claim, and therefore should have watched HIM (Kimor).

I agree with this.
I already said that, but I agree with it.

So, do you think Emp looks gakked up for buying into it or no?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Caught up. Claimed scum has claimed scum.
VOTE: Batt

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Batt - thank you for the derp night actions claim with no connecting logic, Majiffy is on board now.

AV has me doubting - but it's either him or Emp with Batt. Emp's quick buy in on the claim in a situation where I think it's even reasonable to presume there isn't another PR in the game, much less one that played really anti-town and with no reasoning....yeah...

But, seriously, I'm down to gamble on this one.
If there's no quick hammer we can play TUG vs. Batt. I like town's odds.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I appreciate the buddying, but you don't get to squirm out of it like that.

Day 2 you knew that no one had targeted Kimor - so either scum had tried to kill Emp and Kimor had saved him.
Or Emp was scum and Kimor had stopped the kill.
Or scum lolgambited and didn't kill.

Believing option 3 tends towards derp.

So you functionally have an option where scum shot at a towny person and were prevented (by a town PR)
Or you think the town PR narrowly saved his own life.

You know this because there was no scum secret actions niggling our Jailkeeper (and, hey, you just said you don't even think scum would have PRs)

You take all this information and decide you need to try to CONFIRM the Jailkeeper...
Because obviously scum is him and it is a gambit...

Doing a no lynch is the answer to that gambit - but you still keep watching the claimed PR! This is why Watchers are called OP, because they watch claimed PRs!
And this is with you now telling me that you honestly believed there were 2 PRs...meaning if a kill had gone through and you did a massclaim and got your lolobvious 2 town PRs + the fake Jailkeeper...

I just broke Ockham's Razor trying to put that into a town mindset. You are scum.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Oh, and add onto that that we're in lylo and someone you think is town is voting you and you act 'cool' about it.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Wait, what? What? You make this up yourself? The only mention I've made on the amount of PRs was to DEFEND the fact that I AM a TOWN PR, because only 1 TOWN PR would be UNBALANCED, EVEN if there are NO SCUM PRs.

Yes, so you beleive without a doubt that there are two town PRs.
You *don't* watch the claimed one in case he is killed, but instead watch his target so he can help confirm you.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Yeah...but the only way that would help would be if he was town, and if he was town you should have been protecting him via looking for a scumkill.

You also knew there was no other town protective roles (unless they were incredible derps) because they hadn't been on him. So with you as one of the most powerful investigative roles in the game, what did that leave...can't be Tracker, because they could have confirmed him better and probably would have, so then we're down to...what?

Instead we have two of the most powerful town roles in the game and one of them decides to play his role in a very non standard way as some sort of odd gambit?
That's your story?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Unvote

@Batt - can you link me to any game with you as a Watcher?

@Majiff - as mentioned, I'm at work basically all of tomorrow - we'll chat late or, at the latest, late, late on Friday when I'm back, but mostly Thursday.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

I hate you all.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

For the record, I still think you need to eat rope.

-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

A couple of quick questions (for the record, now Majiffy is the awesome one and I'm the mumbling bastich of the pair - egads!)

1. JKer *is* an amazingly potent pro-town tool I think 1 JKer + 1 Doc is the most potent pro-town possibility in Newbies, because the JKer is a functional cop too once one scum is dead. Huge power there. Not really a question, just stating a belief (I'll also add I think Watcher is an immensely potent town role once a town PR claims...if played right...)

2. Batt - before you said this game would be poorly balanced if there was only one town PR - now you're saying it would be balanced with one PR and two goons (which I agree with) which do you actually believe, and why do you seem to be reversing a prior statement?

3. Also for Batt - as a Watcher suspecting Kimor why not push for a mass claim yesterday too? You have shown a willingness to hide your claim for 'town benefit' so why not try for a massclaim if you doubted Kimor - any town PR claim would have let you know for a fact Kimor was scum, and depending on the other claim you would have put town in a strong position. Your actions feel very muddled for if you suspected him or if you didn't, and I feel like you're trying to stay in a mushy middle where you can have it both ways.

4. Batt - also, you waiting to claim last for Watcher in a game with obviously finite PRs (1 *maybe* 2) and then also having no proof of any results because, hey, no results, is hardly doing a win in your favor. You've functionally claimed PR, tried to argue it as obv. existing to make you obv. town, and then not even had any results. Basically your claim was a 'don't lynch me claim' why do you find that odd that AV would find it scummy? I find it scummy.

5. Cheery Dog - I think Batt's actions make no sense as town, AV also thinks this. Batt obviously thinks they do, and Emp appears to do the same (though he ducked addressing my challenge about that). What is your call? You're currently clearing him based off a theory mod guess that apparently Batt doesn't even agree with - so?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

@Anyone - what would be the balanced scum PR versus a JK+Watcher combo in a 7p?

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Because I'm pretty sure we all agree Goon+Goon is not it.

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]

Majiffy is the awesome one and I'm the mumbling bastich of the pair

Finally you admit it.

I was thinking it made sense to do as town, but then batt actually started off the massclaiming unprovoked except that we were saying it needed to happen.

You mean the massclaim where he claimed VT, then waited around until everyone claimed, renegged on that claim, and claimed a PR with a shoddy situation?
Yes, that is so brilliantly town.

Also, I'm sure Thor will agree when he reads Batt's latest posts;
VOTE: Batt

This is just ridiculous at this point.
-Majiffy

[TwoUpstandingGentlemen]