Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[Human Destroyer]

HEY

STARTING WITHOUT ME AIN'T COOL

VOTE: KX

Trust me, this guy is scum.

[Human Destroyer]

Also hi GM ^_^

[Human Destroyer]

^I'm confused, what did I lie about?

[Human Destroyer]

THEY ARE. :3

[Human Destroyer]

OH SHIT A MEHDI HYDRA

Okay I should really stop with the caps

Anyway who's this a hydra of again?

[Human Destroyer]

Oh it's Elscouta

nvm

[Human Destroyer]

Nah the nvm was because I just checked.

Anyway KX wagon is good let's build it

[Human Destroyer]

Also I find your serra point more null than anything

Especially among newer players, weakly worded questions are more of a bad scumhunter tell than an actual scumtell.

[Human Destroyer]

Not possible, I don't have a scum meta.

Woopdedoo.

[Human Destroyer]

(Ongoing games obviously not included in any way, shape, or form in that)

[Human Destroyer]

Exactly my point.

P-Edit: I didn't think that was an AtE

[Human Destroyer]

^Is that a Klick meta thing?

If so, links and explanations required.

[Human Destroyer]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Josh Lyman

There's plenty going on to comment on already, why do you insist there isn't?

[Human Destroyer]

Also serra is a decent wagon, her posts focus on KX's scumminess but her vote doesn't reflect that; rather it seems like she's wagoning just to wagon.

[Human Destroyer]

Er...all instances of her should be him

Whoops

[Human Destroyer]

Venrob is probably noob/derp town, misrepping your own meta when it's pretty easy for people to look at it themselves is just useless for scum to do; therefore I think he just remembered wrong or something.

[Human Destroyer]

(also, I'll say that I'm very easily readable - whatever you feel first, I'm the opposite alignment. )

But I feel your town....

VOTE: Klick

Then what do you think of this?

[Human Destroyer]

I'd like serra to answer before answering my rationale on asking the question if you don't mind.

[Human Destroyer]

Quote the statements you find useful please.

[Human Destroyer]

KX, please stop talking about your own playstyle and scumhunt instead, thanks.

[Human Destroyer]

I wanted to see if you would apply a double standard.

Which you didn't.

Which is points in your favor.

[Human Destroyer]

And yet your vote remains in RVS.

Noted.

[Human Destroyer]

HD what did you think of serra's answer beyond lack of double standard? Would you call it actually useful things she linked to?

1) The double standard part was really the important thing about the answer; I didn't really see anything particularly town or scum other than that tidbit.

2) I'd describe them more as "trying to be useful".

[Human Destroyer]

^This guy isn't making a serious vote yet.

This is a problem.

[Human Destroyer]

NicCage can you clarify #130? I'm not sure what you're saying there.

[Human Destroyer]

Do you have reads on any other players?

[Human Destroyer]

Josh Lyman is prob-scum

NicCage is also possible scum

Our friendly hydra is probably town

KX seems like his normal town self IMO

[Human Destroyer]

Josh Lyman is scum because he completely refuses to comment on relevant things in the game.

You're both scummy because you didn't get off your random vote until I pointed it out.

[Human Destroyer]

Not to mention your vote doesn't reflect your posting

Ew

[Human Destroyer]

Eh yeah

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NicCage

That bandwagon vote is just too blatant to let it slide

[Human Destroyer]

You devoted one line of your entire posting history to why Venrob is scummy, plus it echoes things others have already said; that's a blatant bandwagon vote and I don't like it.

[Human Destroyer]

That's true, I was basically bandwagoning. But, I don't think anyone seems scummier to me than Venrob at this point. I just wanted to see if my vote would make him respond in a different way. Like it has already been stated, his posts really hadn't added any extra relevant information. Your reason for voting Josh was that he wasn't commenting on anything relevant in the game. What's the difference to you between him and Venrob?

I added a previously unstated reason in my post when I was voting him, I don't think there was any more reasons that could have been brought up.

The difference is Venrob did something that scum really can't afford to do; misrep their own play. Josh Lyman, on the other hand, has singlehandedly managed to avoid absolutely everything in the entire thread.

In fact, he's ignored my own vote on him, while Venrob has not ignored the votes on him.

@HD: Why do you think the hydra is Town?

Town reads for me are always general gut reads; I can never attribute anything specific to my town reads.

[Human Destroyer]

Well Venrob hasn't really responded well, but he's at least acknowledged that they're there.

[Human Destroyer]

Anything along the lines of:

1) Avoiding the question.
2) Saying it's fine for a filler reason.
3) Giving a wishy-washy answer.

P-Edit: You have some reads to give son. I want reads on at least 5 players in this game right now. Go.

[Human Destroyer]

Well that's not the reason he posted.

He said "JacobSavage has been attempting to contribute, whereas Venrob has not." That's not filler IMO.

[Human Destroyer]

NicCage can wait

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Josh Lyman

This guy needs to hang today

Will be back later with actual content

[Human Destroyer]

Difference being? He isn't going to say it that exact way since that makes it sound a lot less town like then he's contributing some helpful things here and there.

-snip-

HD how much does it matter to you as well (if it's dumb as scum then how does it become not dumb as town and just null?)?

To the first question: But the thing here is that serra isn't wrong (at least as far as I can tell); JS has at least attempted to contribute, and I guess he sorta has but not really.

To the second question: I imagine that, as scum, I would be a lot more careful about what I say when I say it; this screams "not being careful" to me, hence my derp town read.

Josh Lyman is scum because he completely refuses to comment on relevant things in the game.

I think KX being scum is highly relevant. Why don't you? Are you his partner?

Josh Lyman, on the other hand, has singlehandedly managed to avoid absolutely everything in the entire thread.

I don't know why I'm even typing a response to you, as you've repeatedly indicated you have absolutely zero grasp of a thing we like to call "reading comprehension," but I'm going to try anyway.

TRY READING MY POSTS AND YOU WILL SEE THAT I AM NOT AVOIDING WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS THREAD.

Yes, you are. There are plenty of things besides KX to talk about, yet you've talked about a grand total of 0 of them.

Insulting me isn't going to help you get out of the hole you've dug yourself, nice try though.

KX is town, as in

NEVER

should be lynched under any circumstances. Scum do not stay up til 3am making a big post listing all of his reads. Scum try and avoid giving them so the fact 1. he gave them voluntarily and 2. he did them so late at night when sleep is far more important. Either he's town or he's scum and didn't read his Role PM.

Your reasoning is flawed, but the conclusion is probably correct.

• HD
  has been posting well, but I get the feeling he wouldn't play much differently as scum. I'll have to take a closer look at him.

I'm flattered...I think?

I agree. I viewed Josh Lyman's situation as very similar to Venrob's. But now I think Josh has been called out to contribute something and he has passed up multiple opportunities to do so. I can't imagine this not being scummy.

Unvote

Vote: Josh Lyman

This is another scummy bandwagon vote IMO, but Josh Lyman is scummier.

[Human Destroyer]

I hate quote tags

You can get the general idea though, right?

[Human Destroyer]

Since I have you here, what do you think of Josh Lyman, town or scum?

[Human Destroyer]

^That's L-2 I think

[Human Destroyer]

^That is

the

most flawed logic I've ever seen.

If Josh Lyman is scum I can near guarantee you JacobSavage is his buddy.

BUT THAT'S FOR LATER

[Human Destroyer]

...no, he's scummy. Where did I say he was null?

He's avoided current events in game and completely denied doing so. That's pretty damn scummy if you ask me.

[Human Destroyer]

Actually, I am pretty confident in it.

Right now, I'm worried about my particular reasons for the lynch; I can analyze the other people on the wagon after the flip if need be.

I still think Josh is scum, especially when bussing is possible.

[Human Destroyer]

No Cheery, that isn't what I mean

I mean if I find someone scummy, I'm more worried about the reasons I have for lynching them than the reasons of the rest of the wagon

I personally believe wagon analysis is best done after the flip, not before.

[Human Destroyer]

Updated Josh case let's go

Vote: ArcAngel

RVS, nothing interesting here

You guys are arguing over nothing. I can't wait till the game gets really going. You guys are gonna break my monitor.

The fact that this was post

69

should be tripping a few scumdars here. At this point, we have the Venrob wagon to talk about, a KX wagon to talk about, AND a small HD wagon to talk about, yet he shrugs and says "Meh, you guys aren't really arguing about anything, I'm out."

KX: You are far too self-introspective. Mafia is a game of logic and argumentation, and one is supposed to engage with other players and determine things about

other players,

not endlessly ramble on and on and on and on and on and ON about how they themselves play.

Now, if you'll kindly STFU about yourself, and start playing the game, I, for one, will be much happier.

P-Edit: Arcangel, no, I think it's scummy. It's a way to focus not on the game and yet appear active.

I've already noted that he didn't go off his random vote until I prodded him to. And yet again, he avoids the Venrob issue.

I WAS ANGRY AND UNABLE TO REMEMBER TO VOTE

Vote: KX

(Thanks. I forgot.)

Actually makes a vote after I tell him "Hey your vote is still in RVS."

ITT Cheery Dog is wrong.

So, so wrong.

Very wrong.

Still avoiding Venrob wagon

And, rather then talk about myself, many of you will be happy to know that I plan to soon make a semi-constructive post of how I see the game so far based on other people.

YOU'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF

STOP IT

STOP IT STOP IT STOPITSTOPITSTOPIT

Josh Lyman is scum because he completely refuses to comment on relevant things in the game.

I think KX being scum is highly relevant. Why don't you? Are you his partner?


goodmorning is probtown.

Josh Lyman, on the other hand, has singlehandedly managed to avoid absolutely everything in the entire thread.

I don't know why I'm even typing a response to you, as you've repeatedly indicated you have absolutely zero grasp of a thing we like to call "reading comprehension," but I'm going to try anyway.

TRY READING MY POSTS AND YOU WILL SEE THAT I AM NOT AVOIDING WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS THREAD.

Rages at me and assumes that'll quiet me up. My answer: lolno. Still avoiding the Venrob wagon.

"Part" of what you say being about yourself is not an issue.

Every. Single. Word. though, being about yourself, tends to be an issue. You can't scumhunt if you aren't talking about anyone else, right?

Not only is this

still

avoiding the Venrob wagon, it's also something that the hydra proved to be wrong.

KX is town, as in

NEVER

should be lynched under any circumstances. Scum do not stay up til 3am making a big post listing all of his reads. Scum try and avoid giving them so the fact 1. he gave them voluntarily and 2. he did them so late at night when sleep is far more important. Either he's town or he's scum and didn't read his Role PM.

As much as it pains me to do so, I have to agree with this.

unvote

I already explained that I disagree with the reasoning of Jacob's post but agree with the conclusion, so considering this particular reasoning, I'd be surprised if town-Josh actually agreed with it.

HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED

Filler which is, guess what, used to completely avoid the fact that HE NOW HAS A WAGON ON HIM. Jacob somehow manages to call him town from this, which I find extremely suspicious from him.

@Josh: why are you being wishy-washy?

I disagree that I'm being wishy-washy. I did change my read on KX, but that was after Jacob pointed out, very logically, that scum wouldn't put in the effort that KX is putting in.

...no, he's scummy. Where did I say he was null?

He's avoided current events in game and completely denied doing so. That's pretty damn scummy if you ask me.

What, specifically, am I avoiding? What would you like me to comment on?

And if Josh though KX being scum was highly relevent, why the sudden 180? Surely Jacob's reasoning wasn't that convincing.

It actually was that convincing to me.

1) Yeah I'll admit that Josh isn't really being wishy-washy, I don't find that a valid accusation.

2) Already explained above.

3) I don't believe you.

It's well documented that a player who is putting real perceived effort into a game is more likely to be town than to be scum. Real effort is very, very hard to fake.

I put the same amount of effort into my town games as my scum games tbh, that's not what sold me on KX-town.

tl;dr Josh has avoided the Venrob wagon and his own wagon for the whole entire game; he needs to hang. Jacob is also suspicious based on associative tells.

[Human Destroyer]

I mean if I find someone scummy, I'm more worried about the reasons I have for lynching them than the reasons of the rest of the wagon

I personally believe wagon analysis is best done after the flip, not before.

If people are joining your wagon with weak reasons, there may be a problem with it. But my point is the reason you voted that wagon was the same as what most people (everyone but venrob) used, so if you're worrying about your own reasons, shouldn't you also worry about other people who are using the

same thing

Well yeah, but see, the problem here is that people can be bussing. That, and sketchy votes

do

sometimes come from town. Also, considering I have a scum read on the one being wagoned and no flips to go off of, I have no definitive associations to go off of, therefore I'm going to keep my vote on Josh until he really proves to me he's town. Which, so far, he hasn't.

Let me put it this way: if I think someone is scum, I'm willing to let some sketchy votes slide to get him lynched, but after the fact I'll take a look at them if necessary.

...no, he's scummy. Where did I say he was null?

He's avoided current events in game and completely denied doing so. That's pretty damn scummy if you ask me.

Why do you respond to me making a general point about people on the Josh wagon?

Because I'm the one really pushing it. I thought that was pretty obvious.

[Human Destroyer]

People voting Josh:

KX
AA9
HD
NicCage
Venrob*

People that find Josh scummy but aren't voting him:

Docteur
Cheery
GM?

People that find Josh null or town:

JacobSavage
serra?
Venrob*

People who haven't mentioned Josh:

Klick
Spencer

*Venrob finds Josh null, yet is voting for him.

[Human Destroyer]

Funny, I thought HD was pretty obv-town

Maybe I just have confirmation bias?

...

Okay in all seriousness, that's a load of bs. Show me where in my posting I have scum motivation, please and thank you.

[Human Destroyer]

Not really

I asked you to show me examples

Which you still haven't

[Human Destroyer]

[Human Destroyer]

"Until he really proves to me he's town" =/= wait until claim or flip

And yes I do have a point

That's why I'm voting him :/

[Human Destroyer]

The flow of his read on KX seems legitimate, and he pushed KX to scumhunt, which he has no use doing as scum.

Wait wait

This makes no sense

If Josh Lyman has a scum read on KX, he shouldn't be telling KX to scumhunt as if he was town

That implies he's voting KX with full knowledge he's town

Which means he's scum

[Human Destroyer]

KX, please stop talking about your own playstyle and scumhunt instead, thanks.

KX: You are far too self-introspective. Mafia is a game of logic and argumentation, and one is supposed to engage with other players and determine things about

other players,

not endlessly ramble on and on and on and on and on and ON about how they themselves play.

Now, if you'll kindly STFU about yourself, and start playing the game, I, for one, will be much happier.

P-Edit: Arcangel, no, I think it's scummy. It's a way to focus not on the game and yet appear active.

Also considering I did it first, how is it a towntell?

[Human Destroyer]

The fact that you didn't emphasize #231 makes me assume that you already know that logic is flawed.

Yeah but I'm showing you another way in which your logic is flawed.

serra I don't understand your question. :/

[Human Destroyer]

Oh wait I see what you're going for

I've already explained that it isn't something specific that makes me think someone's town

They just have to start giving me strong town vibes

Which Josh isn't

[Human Destroyer]

Well prove is the only word to really describe it tbh

But now we're getting into word semantics.

[Human Destroyer]

Oh

Uh

Sorry

[Human Destroyer]

^Jacob shouldn't be a townread

I'm not sure why, but serra doesn't really strike me as being scummy to the caliber to Jacob. Call it gut or whatever, but Jacob's defenses are just plain...weird.

[Human Destroyer]

(He's still a slight scum read though)

[Human Destroyer]

It isn't my birthday yet. Time zones?

Thanks anyway ^_^

[Human Destroyer]

serra, what do you think of #231?

[Human Destroyer]

Regarding 231, I disagree with it.

Regardless of KX's alignment, we want him to post stuff that isn't just about himself. If he's town, we get some genuinely useful input. If he's scum, he's much more likely to slip up if forced to make concrete judgments and connections. Josh pointing that out doesn't look scummy to me. I also find it too early to give him a scumread based on the potential hypocrisy of his read on KX, as the game really hasn't developed for long enough to gauge overall contributions.

Now I see why serra is prob-scum.

Talking to a "scumread" as if they're town is a blatant scumslip.

I also made a whole goddamn case on Josh Lyman's lack of contribution. The fact that he's calling out KX for the same thing he's doing is, in fact, hypocritical and scummy.

Josh/Jacob/serra is my D1 scum team guess. Questions?

[Human Destroyer]

Thanks mod ^_^

[Human Destroyer]

1) Because you're right, she is being a little more stubborn in defending Lyman than I would think she would as town. She's complaining that the case on Lyman doesn't make sense (it does) and that he is "being attacked for being null" which I've said repeatedly he isn't.

2) Somewhere between 80-85%, although I dislike using numbers to personify how I think someone will flip. Of the team being correct? I'd say it's weaker, probably more around 50-60%, simply because we haven't had any flips yet.

[Human Destroyer]

Do you not want your scumreads to be posting their reads?

Had someone you consider more useful than Josh told KX to stop being useless, would that have been equally scummy? Why is hypocrisy scummy?

1) (and paragraph before it) No, that's not what I mean. He was talking to KX as if he knew KX was town. That is the scummy thing here. If he was saying it sort of like "Well, if you really are town, stop talking about yourself", but no, he went and talked to KX like KX was town. Meaning he was voting KX knowing full well he was town. Meaning Josh is scum.

2) Yes.

3) Hypocrisy is scummy because you're calling someone out for doing something scummy while you're doing that exact same thing, therefore emulsifying the scumminess factor of said action and, in essence, calling yourself scum.

[Human Destroyer]

Arc, what in particular about GM's reads don't you like?

serra, now you're being hypocritical; we've presented our reasons for the case, and you've disregarded them by saying "Not scummy enough"; you haven't disproved them in any way.

[Human Destroyer]

Actually, Arc, I have more questions about your reads:

Why is serra town?
Why is Jacob town?
Why is Cheery "unsure"?

[Human Destroyer]

TOWN

Human Destroyer
KX
goodmorning
Docteur Gudsight
Cheery Dog
ArcAngel9
--- <--Null line
Klick
Venrob
NicCage
serrapaladin
--- <--Null line
JacobSavage
Josh Lyman

SCUM

NOT RATED

Spencer22

[Human Destroyer]

Spoiler: JacobSavage case gogogo

Waggggooooon
VOTE: Klick

Uninteresting RVS wagons are uninteresting.

I would never forget that Also you've changed your avatar that made me sad

Filler.

Cool. I'm completely terrible as scum and get lynched by Page 3 every time. I'm totally confirmed town because I haven't scumslipped.

Its too soon for you too do any slips but if if you're scum..am sure there will be one to find.
so Is there anyone who played with Jacob when he was scum?

No one in existence unfortunately.
Well unless you count Serial Killer as scum (note: I don't) then your better off looking here, but that was like 2 years ago so...

This is a fair enoug post BUT HE USED THE WRONG "YOU'RE" AKJDBKJABDKJSBDKJBSKDKJSB

Actually just go and read here, that'll give you a good enough Idea

Supplementary to previous post, don't really care about it. Technically useless since he linked to the game already but whatever.

KX, you're getting very defensive over this. Its not something that major, so why the AtE that is #42?

On an unrelated note : what are peoples opinions about using meta from games where a player is flipped but the game isn't over.

Here's where it starts to get interesting. #42 doesn't look anything even remotely close to AtE, making me think JacobSavage is trying to paint something that isn't really very scummy into something that is.

Ninja'd... really need to learn to read those posts when the stop me posting.

Also I've seen some mods be funny about it as it's possible you could say something that could affect their game.

Filler.

Again need to read posts fully as well....

To be fair it just looked that way to me. In my head it sounds like it's being spoke by someone close to tears.

Still don't see how it's an AtE...

See I don't know, half it reads townie but the fact that it was so.out.of the blue makes it look questionable.
For now I'll put it as leaning very slightly scum and.will come back to.it.later.

So it's townish but scummy? What?

It wasn't that you responed to them, it was that your response was so emotional that was what came out at me

I still haven't seen a single speck of emotion anywhere in that post. You could've at least pointed it out or something by now since so many people are questioning you about it, but no, you're just going to keep insisting on it, since repetition will make it true, right?!

No.

Think that's bad: One game I was in by the time I got to.it in the morning 17 pages... Face desk.(speaking of which its probably bed time soon....)

Venrob describe your play in one sentance.

Filler. Also asking for self-meta, which is always a terrible idea. Looks like he's setting Venrob up for a lynch IMO.

Also just a couple of.things about your wiki.
1. Don't ever put down what role you have claimed / alignment until your game is ended.
2. Some people put flips as they happen down. I think your supposed to wait til it's over before you put anything.
So for example in Bitmaps game you should leave it blank.

A side conversation that honestly should've been taken to PM but whatever.

(also, I'll say that I'm very easily readable - whatever you feel first, I'm the opposite alignment. )

But I feel your town....

VOTE: Klick

EW THIS VOTE IS SO BAD OW MY FACE YOU SHOULDN'T BE RVSING THIS LATE IN THE GAME THIS IS A MASSIVELY SCUMMY POST THAT SHOULDN'T EXIST AND ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH

Damn it cheery beat me to it.

Filler, feels like he's trying to leech town cred off of Cheery.

KX is town, as in

NEVER

should be lynched under any circumstances. Scum do not stay up til 3am making a big post listing all of his reads. Scum try and avoid giving them so the fact 1. he gave them voluntarily and 2. he did them so late at night when sleep is far more important. Either he's town or he's scum and didn't read his Role PM.

Terrible reasoning to call someone town, even if it's the correct conclusion. Scum put just as much, if not

more

effort into their posting when compared to town.

I don't believe that it is though, there are far better ways of looking town

This is actually a decent response to an IMO bullshit post by serra.

II'm addressing Serra about KX

k

KX is town, as in

NEVER

should be lynched under any circumstances. Scum do not stay up til 3am making a big post listing all of his reads. Scum try and avoid giving them so the fact 1. he gave them voluntarily and 2. he did them so late at night when sleep is far more important. Either he's town or he's scum and didn't read his Role PM.

Short rant: people have never mentioned it to me as scum when I post at 4am to deal in wall wars or cases. True anyway.

I should draw line between wall wars, cases and like unprovoked reads. By anyway. majority of it time they are done by town

What the hell does this even have to do anything?

@All, not a fan of this Josh wagon, the way it's grown suggests there's more than a few scum on it.
As a general rule, mist early D1 wagons are town just due to the nature of them.

HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED

And to be fair this is a very town reaction. I mean scum would try and build some sort of defense. The way he acknowledges but also.ignores the wagon.is a very telling sign.

SCUM WARNING

Why the fuck would any town player ignore the wagon on them? It makes no sense! They should be trying to defend themselves from the lynch, not complain about how they're "being repressed"! I think Jacob's quickness to call Josh town is a major scumtell here.

Serra
Venrob
Nic Cage

Provides 3 random scum reads without any backing.

Pretty sire there was something I was supposed to do ..

He meant your reasons for reading them as scum, not why you posted them. :/

[Human Destroyer]

(Note to self, don't need quotes in spoiler names)

Also, small EBWOP since I didn't address #194 for some reason:

@All, not a fan of this Josh wagon, the way it's grown suggests there's more than a few scum on it.
As a general rule, mist early D1 wagons are town just due to the nature of them.

Not always. I've seen early D1 wagons just by reading games I wasn't in. This is a weak reason to townread Josh, but #195 was worse IMO.

[Human Destroyer]

...huh, I didn't notice that.

I feel silly now.

[Human Destroyer]

Are they actually scummy though?
Most of the rest of the "case" is also reading so crap that it's made my gut say Jacob is probably town, is that what you wanted to happen with why you made it?
Seriously the only ones in that mess that I see Jacob having scum motivation for doing are in there are 164 and 270.

1) No, that was just to make the PBPA complete.
2) I think my intention was pretty clear; to show why Jacob was scummy. I don't see where you see town motivation in his posts.

[Human Destroyer]

If I had to pick out specific posts to look at:

#49
#55
#56
Possibly #62 (although that may be a slight stretch)
#85
Possibly #86 (although, again, this may be stretching a little)
#164
#195 <--This is the big warning siren for me in particular
The combination of #239 and #270

[Human Destroyer]

So then how would Jacob be asserting a town read from that if it's done as both alignments?

[Human Destroyer]

If you mean gut in terms of Jacob, he didn't imply anywhere it was a gut read unless I'm actually blind and missed it.

If you mean gut in terms of you...well, I like having a case better than gut personally, but if you're really going to stick to your gut I guess I can't really shove it in your face more than I already have.

P-Edit: It was you saying KX was somehow using WIFOM by making a reads post.

[Human Destroyer]

HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED

And to be fair this is a very town reaction. I mean scum would try and build some sort of defense. The way he acknowledges but also.ignores the wagon.is a very telling sign.

This is the post I was looking at for the reasons you were townreading him.

[Human Destroyer]

HD: Nope, I said no such thing. I was refuting Jacob's 164 by calling it subject to WIFOM.

So then I'm confused. Can you clarify what exactly was the WIFOM?

[Human Destroyer]

Okay I was just getting tripped up by the terminology

It's not really WIFOM that you're talking about, it's just a null tell.

Meh, I have to rethink my reads a little, the fact.so many people are questioning my Jacob scumread is making me feel like I missed something. Also I'm starting to think serra might not be scum if that hasn't become evident in my posting yet.

P-Edit: Ehhhh...seems like an easy scum cop-out reason to me, but I honestly think it might take a Josh flip for me to really solidify my read on you one way or another.

[Human Destroyer]

Oh

This is one of those times where I wish I could read

Nonetheless he's still on his RVS vote when he has scumreads, which is a point against him.

P-Edit: @goodmorning

[Human Destroyer]

Phoneposting is dumb

Okay I'm willing to hammer Josh. Is that okay?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: JacobSavage

Scummiest post in the goddamn game. Where did your strong town read on him go?

Hi

The scum team is Human Destroyer, goodmorning, and the Mehdi Hydra.

You're welcome

Vote: Human Destroyer

Where the fuck did this come from?

Cool Story. What makes you think that?

conforming to an anti town idea in order to fit in, the way he maddogged the josh wagon for silly reasons

Goodmorning for starting a stream of anti-town posts.

Mehdi is gut mostly along with his play between him and HD. I'd be willing to discuss the possibility of Serra being the 3rd scum instead of the hydra simply because he calls out the hydra for doing something antitown and then contradicts himself by doing something incredibly similar.

Not a big fan of the hammer offer coming from jacob with 2 replacements incoming and more then week before deadline. but he's likely town

Jenniferr is town(mostly because Joshw as town and her posting reaffirms)

@KX, unvoting because of a replacement is kind of silly. You're obvious new town but why the unvote? Do you find the Josh slot(now inherited by jenniferr) to be a town slot or a scum slot?

goodmorning reaffirming my heavy scum read on her with the whole unvoting the replacement thing and then voting another lurker. I'm very willing to switch my vote to her if the better and much more tasty Human Destroyer wagon doesn't happen.

How am I "conforming" to these supposed "anti town ideas" to "fit in" if a) I was the one driving the Josh wagon and b) I have a semi-unorthodox scum read on Jacob?

Man, my scum reads are so damn good

Maybe in some other dimension, they are.

[Human Destroyer]

I always do scum lists. Just search around, you'll find them.

Except the case wasn't bad (it isn't applicable anymore because Jennifer strikes me as town on first impression but whatever)

[Human Destroyer]

@Panzer

a) Why would a case more likely come from a scum mindset than a town mindset?

b) Which case(s) is/are false and why is/are it/they false?

[Human Destroyer]

Jennifer's case actually interests me a lot, but I like my vote where it is currently.

Taking Jenn's case into account, I'd say GM's floating somewhere in the null range.

[Human Destroyer]

and what is surprising me is that how you don't see GM scummy, He has was doing nothing than just twisting the game. how can you don't see that? and HD?

Is this a question being asked towards me or are you asking it about me?

[Human Destroyer]

Also I know there were a bunch of questions in the page or two I missed but I'm really lazy so if there are any questions you need answered, point them out and I'll respond.

[Human Destroyer]

@Arc

Jennifer's case actually interests me a lot, but I like my vote where it is currently.

Taking Jenn's case into account, I'd say GM's floating somewhere in the null range.

I did answer it though...

[Human Destroyer]

1) Jacob is scummier.

2) Her main focus of attack is goodmorning, why wouldn't she have two scum reads?

P-Edit: @Docteur

[Human Destroyer]

@Arc

Jennifer's case actually interests me a lot, but I like my vote where it is currently.

Taking Jenn's case into account, I'd say GM's floating somewhere in the null range.

I did answer it though...

well that was it? that was looking more like that you don't want talk about him than considering into facts that i mentioned about him.

Well GM was a slight town read before, and now she's moved to null because the cases on her interest me. There isn't really much more to talk about there. >.>

P-Edit: Her=Jennifer

[Human Destroyer]

...what? That isn't what I said, I was saying why I didn't agree with Docteur...

[Human Destroyer]

Gotcha, i was confirming!!!
And your thoughts on Sera?

Null leaning scum, although I've been questioning the read a little.

[Human Destroyer]

Yes obviously, you should know.

But seriously I kind of forgot that Goodmorning was in the game...

^That's like an admission to not having read the previous 3 or so pages since goodmorning was the main topic of discussion

I like my vote

[Human Destroyer]

Even skimming, goodmorning is mentioned in like every post

It's physically impossible to forget she's in the game if you've read it

[Human Destroyer]

1) So he went from super-strong "JOSH LYMAN IS TOWN DON'T YOU DARE LYNCH HIM" to "I'll hammer" without any mention of why in between those two posts? There's a thought disconnect here and I don't like it.

2) Actually, considering the wagon on her at the time, I'm not particularly surprised at all. Post #349 looks pretty solidified to me.

Except people called her goodmorning a lot of the time? also lol the 2 BBs

[Human Destroyer]

Oh wait you thought I was talking about his association of goodmorning to GM?

Not what I'm thinking of. I'm saying that she was the main topic of discussion for 3 pages, how can he "forget" she was in the game if he actually read the game?

[Human Destroyer]

I have an issue yay

But the reason why I was willing to hammer is 1. A lot of people had expressed opinions on him and so.would be a good information lynch. 2. I prefere to not make the mod have to try and find a L-1 slot as often they are very hard to find.

Doesn't look like he has a town read on Josh to me. Therefore, it isn't a quick switch of reads; he's made no indication that his town read has eroded at all.

That linked to the 349th post ever on this forum

I'm bad with the post tags :/ I meant to link to Jennifer's #349 obviously.

It's true, yes, but then after that he said he wanted to lynch Josh for information. Still no indication that his townread eroded.

[Human Destroyer]

Is that a wrong link? I don't want to be held accounted for voting jacob sounds exactly like what I'm pushing on her. She goes to the extent to ask why hasn't anyone else commented on this already when it pretty recently happened, but doesn't find it enough to vote him. Likely because the read is contrived and just throwing suspicion and seeing how people accept it was the intent.

Except she was attacking GM and still is attacking GM. I see what you're saying, but I disagree that it's really scummy; neither scum read seems particularly contrived, and she can only vote one at a time.

[Human Destroyer]

EBWOP to #440: Doesn't look like he has a

scum

read on Josh to me. Derp.

[Human Destroyer]

Except the only thing to really analyze is the wagon which, AFAIK about vote analysis, tends to get very subjective sometimes. Josh himself didn't really interact with anyone. The hammer intent does not sit right with me at all.

The thing is that Jennifer herself blows the case right out of the water so...well, we'll see as time goes on I suppose. I'm willing to wait to develop a better read on the slot.

[Human Destroyer]

Avoiding the wagon on Venrob and his own Wagon. Tunneling on KX and then disappering, fun fact he did't site flake, he just disappeared, thats not a good sign especially that close to a lynch.

So everything you said you found him town for.

Scum found guys. Vote Jacob. Ra ra ra.

[Human Destroyer]

@Panzerjager: So you're going to join a wagon your second scum read is driving?

[Human Destroyer]

@Panzerjager: So you're going to join a wagon your second scum read is driving?

You're not my second scum read, and you're not driving anything. You're not the only one pushing the wagon and you're mostly why I've been hesitant to post on him. Because you and him are probably not scum together, so if I'm holding true to my original post i shouldn't vote him(reads change obviously). This post is ridiculously scummy, though. Trying to seek approval for finding scum that hasn't been found yet. Trying to insinuate somebody else is being scummy for a non-reason.

Either way, more votes on goodmorning scum please.

The fuck?

Where the fuck did I ask for approval in this lynch? Anywhere?

You're one to talk, Mr. Being Pro-Town is Scummy.

[Human Destroyer]

How

is

it seeking approval?

I'm driving the fucking wagon. That's stating an objective fact, not "seeking approval".

You're really stretching.

And no, those things

aren't

scummy.

[Human Destroyer]

How

is

it seeking approval?

I'm driving the fucking wagon. That's stating an objective fact, not "seeking approval".

You're really stretching.

And no, those things

aren't

scummy.

They are anti-town at absolute best. You just don't know how to play, which is fine.

Not streching in the least.

Even if it is an "objective fact" the fact you have to say it and be like "look at me being all townie" is extraordinarily scummy. like to ridiculous levels.

1) Considering

no one else in this game thinks that

(unless they've kept such concerns to themselves), don't you think

you

might be the one wrong here?

2) It is stretching. You haven't pointed out anything scummy. You've simply stretched and twisted my words around to fit your definition of a "non-scummy case". Your reasons for calling me scum aren't even scummy in the least.

3)

@Panzerjager: So you're going to join a wagon your second scum read is driving?

Look at that quote again.

It's fucking clear I'm suspicious of you from this post. Your thoughts have made almost no sense throughout this whole game. Rather than paying much attention to the actual question (why you joined a wagon a scumread of yours is pushing), you answered in passing, but then devoted the rest of your post to twisting and misrepping the post by saying "Oh, he's grabbing for town cred by saying he's driving the wagon."

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

I'm pretty damn confident in this one, you can all sheep me now.

tl;dr Panzer is scum because he is

-Calling people scummy using fake reasoning
-Twisting my words to paint me in a bad light
-Voting a player his "scumread" is pushing the lynch of

[Human Destroyer]

1) Yep. Actually trying to convince people someone's scum. Such an anti-town thing to do.

2) "going to" implies you are going to, not that you already have. You did the word twisting thing again.

3) Yes you are. Your "reading between the lines" is making large deals out of small aspects of my posting that are apparently super scummy, yet they really aren't.

4) Calling every vote on you OMGUS is like Scum 101

P-Edit: What do you mean?

[Human Destroyer]

1) You can convince people that someone is scum without making a case or posting a wall. shocking I know.

2)

-Voting a player his "scumread" is pushing the lynch of

is it though. and I didn't even say I was going to. I said I would consider it. You are being very liberal with the english language here. Using the definite of "He's voting" as the future of he is "going to". Neither of which are true.

3) Only small because it's a scumslip you did. Scumslips are generally small.

4) 1 vote on me that is obvious OMGUS = OMG HE'S CALLING ALL HIS VOTES SCUM GUYS.


You are getting worked up and creating a case on over me "calling you scum for things that aren't scummy". If that were true, you wouldn't be getting so worked up over it. You are panicking over something that wouldn't be such a big deal if you weren't scum.

1) Except I don't have to use the same methods you do; you have made a big deal about my methods being scummy, when they are in fact not.

2) Typo on my part. Should've been "going to". "I'm considering it" does kind of imply "I'm going to", whether you like it or not.

3) It's not even a scumslip. I asked you a question, and you called it out as a scumslip.

4) Yes, because a vote with reasons can simply be dismissed as OMGUS. Keep doing that, it'll take you far.

I'm pretty damn confident in this one, you can all sheep me now.

I agree with you that he is scum, but why do you think we should all wagon him rather than Jennifer?

Jennifer really isn't that scummy IMO

OH WAIT A SEC

Did I ever mention how Panzer said "scum lists are anti town", but then completely ignored Klick's? In fact, he didn't mention Klick even once in his ISO. Go look for yourself. In fact, Klick's ISO is scarce as hell. How is my scum list so much more scummy than Klick's to him? Double standard says hi.

[Human Destroyer]

PANZER POSTED A WALL, PANZER IS HYPOCRITICAL SCUM

[Human Destroyer]

JK

Serious post in the morning

[Human Destroyer]

1) You can convince people that someone is scum without making a case or posting a wall. shocking I know.

2)

-Voting a player his "scumread" is pushing the lynch of

is it though. and I didn't even say I was going to. I said I would consider it. You are being very liberal with the english language here. Using the definite of "He's voting" as the future of he is "going to". Neither of which are true.

3) Only small because it's a scumslip you did. Scumslips are generally small.

4) 1 vote on me that is obvious OMGUS = OMG HE'S CALLING ALL HIS VOTES SCUM GUYS.


You are getting worked up and creating a case on over me "calling you scum for things that aren't scummy". If that were true, you wouldn't be getting so worked up over it. You are panicking over something that wouldn't be such a big deal if you weren't scum.

1) Except I don't have to use the same methods you do; you have made a big deal about my methods being scummy, when they are in fact not.

2) Typo on my part. Should've been "going to". "I'm considering it" does kind of imply "I'm going to", whether you like it or not.

3) It's not even a scumslip. I asked you a question, and you called it out as a scumslip.

4) Yes, because a vote with reasons can simply be dismissed as OMGUS. Keep doing that, it'll take you far.


OH WAIT A SEC

Did I ever mention how Panzer said "scum lists are anti town", but then completely ignored Klick's? In fact, he didn't mention Klick even once in his ISO. Go look for yourself. In fact, Klick's ISO is scarce as hell. How is my scum list so much more scummy than Klick's to him? Double standard says hi.

1)

I feel yours was more forced to fit in than Klick's was. Serra also posted a list that I didn't talk about. And more interestingly it was after he reprimanded someone for giving too much information to the scum. Probably something I should of stated. Primarily I just think you're the scummiest of the 3 followed by Serra then Klick.

[1&4)]

2)

I've gone into it quite a bit already this post and would like to refrain from going into it further because this isn't the place for an in-depth discussion on theory. Just because I'm the only one in this game that feels Cases are scummy, doesn't mean I'm the only one on the site or that i'm necessarily wrong. Either way, the fact you disagree with my theory doesn't make me scummy, it's a difference of opnion. You are frustrated with my style of play, my opinions on "scumhunting", and my insistence that you are scum, which is invoking an aggressive response of you voting me and calling me scum. You're orignal case had this gem: "Your thoughts have made almost no sense throughout this whole game." Just because they don't make sense to you doesn't make them scummy. The intent has been to scumhunt, which I believe is quite clear. Unless you are accusing me of deflecting people off of the already faltering(at the time) Jennifer wagon, I don't see any other clear reason that you could insinuate that I'm posting my thoughts on who are scum and why.

[2.]

3)

Conveinient typo.

[3.]

4)

This isn't going anywhere. I'm not going to try to get you to admit to your own scumslip. But I would like it noted by the other players in this game that, first you have stated twice that you are driving the Jacob wagon, thus leading me believe that You are wanting us all to note that you are "scumhunting" and taking credit for a wagon(that had like 2 people on) and second believe that I am "Twisting (your) words to paint (you) in a bad light". So that leads me to believe that you are quite concerned with how people are viewing you in this game. Couple that with you saying something along the lines "panzer not saying anything of consequence this game", I am wondering why you are re-acting so aggressively (a vote and 3 or 4 post dedicated strictly to me being scum) to my "twisting of your words" and why you care some much about peopl's perception of you in this game?

5)

Short answer, it's probably because you're

----------

1) What am I forcing them to fit? My own opinions? Shocking I know. How is Klick's list not scummy compared to others? It's pretty much the only content he's provided all game.

2) I'm clearly stating that you're calling people cum for (mostly) non-reasons, and your insistence on them is what makes me suspicious. This in particular is what I'm thinking of here.

3) They always are, they always are.

4) I'm always concerned with how people see me, despite my alignment. You ain't gonna be convincing anyone if they don't think you're obvtown as fuck. Hence why I always try to make myself appear obvtown as fuck.

5) HE KNOWS MY SECRET! HE KNOWS I'M ACTUALLY A DIVIDING LINE!

[Human Destroyer]

>.>

<.<

[Human Destroyer]

I'd go back to Jacob to prevent a no lynch.

[Human Destroyer]

@Mod: Panzer is at L-5, not L-4

[Human Destroyer]

Nope.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: JacobSavage

Panzer wagon isn't going anywhere, Jacob is my next scum read, etc

[Human Destroyer]

So, we have a number of people who are acting suspiciously, but because there are a few for each of those people who strongly oppose the lynch, we're going to lynch a completely different person. Oh yeah, and we're not going to say why, it's just what we're doing. Admittedly I haven't looked through Nic's posts too carefully, and there aren't very many of them, but still, how does this make sense?

I kinda have to agree with this. This looks like a giant deflection IMO.

[Human Destroyer]

The NicCage wagon is a load of shit

The timing is scummy as fuck and the fact that no one that joined the wagon really mentioned Nic in their ISO very much is also scummy as fuck

A Panzer lynch would be very satisfying, but I don't see it happening so

[Human Destroyer]

Goddammit are you guys sure you don't want to lynch Panzer

My scum read on him is inflating like a balloon

A very large one

That's being fed with a very large air pump

That pumps air quickly

And stuff

[Human Destroyer]

He didn't need to do anything Arc

The existence of that wagon in and of itself probably makes him town

Either that or I'm just really tired and really overreacting

[Human Destroyer]

No Arc, let me explain.

At least one of the competing wagons is probably on scum. Therefore, a scumbuddy of theirs (I'm thinking Panzer) deflected the attention over to NicCage and started an extremely scummy wagon, especially for this close to deadline.

But here's the kicker: ISO Panzerjager.

On NicCage: Post a big wall about me then votes Jennifer at the end? Not sure if scum or bad. Other then that, I'm not gonna point by point answer his wall, because walls are anti-town.

Niccage seems ridiculously scummy.

Could I propose a last second NicCage wagon. He's definitely scummier then everyone who has votes beside Goodmorning.

He goes from "Not sure if new or bad" to "Nic is ridiculously scummy" with no explanation,

then proposes a fucking counterwagon on him.

Goddammit Panzer is scum.

[Human Destroyer]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzerjager

Everyone should join this wagon.

Like now.

[Human Destroyer]

OH RIGHT I FORGOT THE LAST PART

He waits for someone else (serra) to vote for

the counterwagon he fucking proposed

before voting for it himself. It looks like he doesn't want to take the blame for a mislynch from my perspective.

[Human Destroyer]

At last HD actually makes sense with some reason for that panzer wagon to still exist, I still don't think she is our lynch though.

It's a process.

Jennifer can wait tbh; Panzer strikes me as the more immediately scummy, while Jennifer might just be suffering from

Predecessorus Baddum

(i.e. her predecessor was a bad player syndrome).

[Human Destroyer]

Pretty sure Panzer is a he, by the way.

[Human Destroyer]

Panzerjager, Town Mason, has been killed Night 1.

Panzerjager, Town Mason

Panzerjager, Town

WTF IS THIS SHIT

[Human Destroyer]

VOTE: Jacob

Combination of lack of interaction in GM's ISO and yesterday's suspicions

[Human Destroyer]

Yes obviously, you should know.

But seriously I kind of forgot that Goodmorning was in the game...

lol distancing

Firstly,
UNVOTE:

Secondly don't really get what thus whole GM thing is, personally I haven't seen it but then again maybe need to read closer.

Wouldn't be that bad alone, but:

Having re read the game I realise I was an idiot. Jennifer is town, I really need to read more closely.

Out of the two competing wagons

I'd go for GM just based on someone of his earlier posts

, however HD brings up a good point against Panzar so will be willing to swap at the deadline. Will post more derailed thoughts probably D2, my weekend kind of disappeared. x

P-edit: Cherry who would you say are Her possible partners if that's the case?

Considering he didn't even know about the GM case earlier...just lol

[Human Destroyer]

Also Klick you need to back up your reads

Just sayin'

[Human Destroyer]

^There's a perfectly good wagon on your largest scum read, why are you voting your second highest?

[Human Destroyer]

No that's a terrible idea, and here's why:

A counterwagon by definition is supposed to get people off one player in order to get them on another.

Making a competing wagon when your top scumread is already being wagoned makes no sense at all.

[Human Destroyer]

Possible V/LA over this weekend for large snowstorm hitting the area. I will probably be active, but just in case, I'd prefer to be treated as V/LA.

FoS: serra

[Human Destroyer]

Alright I posted that everywhere now I can explain the FoS

serra's posts do not in any way, shape, or form reflect her voting today. Currently she's voting NicCage when, in the post she voted him in, JacobSavage was her "scummiest read"? She now switches to saying the scumteam is GM/HD/Docteur, without voting one of them?

Scum team is GM/Jacob/serra.

[Human Destroyer]

Yeah in serra's ISO I see a lot of town reading GM without explanation, a lot of "Let's see what happens", and then a complete flip around at deadline; bussing a partner for town cred.

[Human Destroyer]

Because you haven't done at all what I'm accusing serra of?

[Human Destroyer]

1) Explanations (and lack of them) are key to associative tells. You pretty clearly explained your GM town read, so no, you didn't do the same thing.

2) "Hey, I think GM is town, but I'm willing to vote for her if you can convince me." He's soft-defending his partner without really taking a firm stance in the battle because he knows that if GM dies, it'll look bad for him as scum.

3) See #1.

Not to mention you've been obvtown as fuck all game

Also, as I said, serra's thought-->vote patterns are disconnected and weird

[Human Destroyer]

I'm still leaning town on GM, although I'm interested to see how Jenn's case plays out.

2) was worded badly. I think this is a really wishy-washy opinion about GM. "Eh, I think she's town, but hey I'll see how this looks before really taking an active stance."

[Human Destroyer]

Town by PoE

He's been flying under my radar tbqh

[Human Destroyer]

It isn't.

The fact that you're ignoring my accusations says a lot too.

[Human Destroyer]

How are they baseless? I've literally put what you've done on the table and shown how it's scummy.

Also just because no one agrees with me (yet) doesn't mean they aren't viable, so try again.

[Human Destroyer]

Nope

Hey HD, why not accuse me, I did almost the same thing?

Could it be since Panzer was correct and you want to get out of a possible bad spot, and think you've got a better shot against serra then against me? tempted to vote you, but don't see a point to it atm. Also, @Bork, what did you see last second that made you hammer?

[Human Destroyer]

Fine, so my town-read of GM diminished as the day went on and cases were presented against her. So what?

If I were scum, I wouldn't place my scumbuddy at the top of my townlist in my first reads-post and if I were bussing her, I wouldn't just reluctantly agree to vote her to prevent an NL - GM just had me fooled early on. Earlier HD attacked me for defending Josh too strongly and not changing my opinion, now apparently I'm scummy for changing my read on GM, you should really make up your mind.

Cheery: I had somewhat neutral reads of Panzer and HD beforehand. Their altercation just didn't look like town-town. Call it gut, if you will.

1) Case misreps ho!

2) WIFOM + WIFOM = SOOPAH WIFOM. Also that case misrep still exists.

3) Making up excuses to call your attacker scummy too! Wow, you're great at flailing!

The fact that serra needs to misrep me in order to defend himself is terrible.

I mean, look at my case against him:

-Voting patterns don't reflect supposed "thoughts".
-

Lack of explanation

for GM town read and subsequent change of read.
-Soft-defending GM for no real reason.
-Making empty attacks (read: no vote) on me with the shitty reasoning that "Panzer v. HD has to be town v. scum".

Where did I say the change in read on GM was scummy? Because spoilers: I didn't. But it's nice that you'd try to address a nonexistant point that's really easy to counter.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: serrapaladin

I'm getting more and more confident on this one.

[Human Destroyer]

For me, it's just PoE.

I'll be honest, they really have not done anything I can consider scummy enough to vote them, and I think the interactions point more to GM/Jacob/serra than anything.

@Cheery: It's not necessarily the

fact

serra's read diminished, it's the

way

his read diminished that I don't like.

[Human Destroyer]

I think panzer's very first post about a GM, HD, Hydra scumteam

may actually have been correct

.

I never said I am more sure

of Panzer having been right about HD and Hydra, I just presented it as an option.

*cough*

[Human Destroyer]

I'm not arguing semantics.

Let's look at your thoughts for a moment:

Your Scum Reads (S>W)

Jacob>Nic>HD>Hydra

Who are you voting? Nic, your

second strongest

scum read. Because apparently, counterwagons against your strongest scum read...are...a...good...thing?

It doesn't make any fucking sense from a town standpoint. A town player would want to get the player they want scummiest lynched, not start a counterwagon against them.

Also,

why echo an opinion that you don't strongly believe in?

Echoing opinions of a confirmed town player to say "Hey I agree with them!" is towncred leeching and a scumtell, especially if you're just "lol it's an option" rather than actually believing it.

[Human Destroyer]

EBWOP:

they

find

scummiest lynched

[Human Destroyer]

What do you make of me calling goodmorning scummy a few times but never voting for her?

You were pushing Jennifer; you only have one vote :/

If you're trying to make the analogy to my case on serra, the difference is serra's votes don't reflect his thoughts, while yours do (you thought Jennifer was scummy enough for a vote but that GM was also scum, which is different than serra starting a counterwagon to his strongest scumread on his second strongest, which makes no sense from town).

[Human Destroyer]

But that it make more sense for scum to continue soft-pushing like this, even after they'd been called out as possibly doing it to their other partner during day 1?

Makes for some pretty decent WIFOM actually

Also yeah I don't get why people think Jacob is town either :/

[Human Destroyer]

^More serra votes please

The game is stagnating this is not a good thing

[Human Destroyer]

*points to NicCage counterwagon*

[Human Destroyer]

(Which was a horribly shitty wagon by the way)

[Human Destroyer]

@HD: the fact that serra (and Panzer) launched a last minute counterwagon on NicCage doesn't remove the fact that during a good part of day1, Serra played in a way that helped in getting goodmorning lynched. Yes, it can be bussing, but it still gives town points in my book.

Wrong.

Serra had a townread for most of Day 1, and only voted GM at the very end because his townread on her supposedly "diminished".

The fact that you're giving him town points for that is complete bullshit.

[Human Destroyer]

@HD: I'm not saying serra said GM was scum. I'm saying that there was some concurrent wagons, that two of the most significant ones were Josh and GM and that serra spent time defending Josh, making the GM wagon the "default" wagon.

That's a load of silly WIFOM BS that you should know better not to use

In other news serra is flailing, considering his vote is not the only thing I've been harping on and he can't prove my reasons are fabricated. (Why? Because they aren't)

Not only that, he hasn't even tried to push the NicCage wagon.

Lynch. This. Fucking. Now.

[Human Destroyer]

@HD: I'm not saying serra said GM was scum. I'm saying that there was some concurrent wagons, that two of the most significant ones were Josh and GM and that serra spent time defending Josh, making the GM wagon the "default" wagon.

That's a load of silly WIFOM BS that you should know better not to use

In other news serra is flailing, considering his vote is not the only thing I've been harping on and he can't prove my reasons are fabricated. (Why? Because they aren't)

Not only that, he hasn't even tried to push the NicCage wagon.

Lynch. This. Fucking. Now.

Don't use the term WIFOM as a magic card to destroy any reasoning.

Scum can bus scum, and still pushing strongly scum gives town points. Is it WIFOM? Depends of what your definition is. Still, anything that is protown should give town points, and anything that helps the scumteam gives scum points.

Here, serra behaviour yesterday helped the town to lynch scum. That makes him a bad lynch candidate today. Jacob didn't help to do anything. You (HD) weighted heavily to avoid a scum lynch. That gives both of you scum points and make you way better lynches.

~ Els

1) I don't use WIFOM arguments for everything. It's appropriate here.

2) Except serra didn't push scum strongly. He had a townread on GM, but when he saw for sure that GM was going down, he joined the wagon.

3) You're too easy with your townpoints. This is how scum get by people, folks! GM was pretty much dead when Panzer claimed mason, so to say serra gets townpoints for lynching her, especially when you consider serra had a townread on GM the whole day, is not only lenient, but ridiculous and stupid. And yeah, I didn't want her lynched because I had a town read on her. That's a thing called "being wrong", heard of it?

Lynch. This. Fucking. Now.

isn't this what you said about panzer yesterday? Why should we be so eager to lynch on that great of your scum reads when it was so wrong yesterday.

(if you're wondering what I'm doing, it's that I'm actually finding both hd and serra scummy and town at the same time, and the repeated questioning is to test which is more plausible).

You should be eager to lynch serra because this case is far more concrete than the Panzer case and the associative tells make serra look far worse than the hydra is letting on.

[Human Destroyer]

• Goodmorning
  and
  ArcAngel
  both seem town, although ArcAngel's vote on Josh seems a bit odd, after admitting he's only been null so far. Input from both of them seems genuine and is somewhat helpful.

Seems town.

I should probably give my scumminess list as well:

Town

goodmorning
Cheery
ArcAngel
Docteur
Nic
Klick
Josh
HD
KX

Null

Spencer
Jacob
Venrob

Scum

Towniest read, no reason given.

I can see Panzer being right about Hydra or HD, but probably not both. Not sure about the goodmorning wagon, I had an overall town feel, besides a few weird accusations - I'll see how that develops.

"People are starting to notice my scumbuddy, time to keep my options for towncred open!"

I'm still leaning town on GM, although I'm interested to see how Jenn's case plays out.

Posts like this always give me bad feels. It gives the person a sort of "I don't want to get my hands dirty" type of stance, so it's almost like fencesitting but usually leaning a little towards one side. Either way, it's a statement made to, again, keep serra's options open.

I'm inclined to believe both AA and GM are town, although the way they went after each other is slightly odd.

Still both town.

IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION, LOOK NOW, THIS IS IMPORTANT

I don't see the wagons on GM or Jenn.

Then very closely after:

I would be willing to lynch any of the four

if it comes down to it. At the moment

I would feel like lynching GM is the lesser of three evils

if we can't get votes onto Jacob.

Who would you vote if we don't agree on GM?

This is where his bussing comes into play so starkly. GM and Jenn wagons are apparently baseless and/or bad, but barely 50 posts later, he's willing to switch to them? What?

Not only that, GM, his strongest fucking townread who was still a townread 50 posts ago, is now his strongest scumread out of those being wagoned.

What in the actual fuck is this shit. Why are people NOT voting this?

[Human Destroyer]

Not only that, GM, his strongest fucking townread who was still a townread 50 posts ago, is now his strongest scumread out of those being wagoned.

I never said GM was my strongest scumread out of those being wagoned. I said that Jenn and Panzer were being more useful, so would be a greater loss if mislynched D1. I was willing to switch to the wagons in order to avoid a No Lynch.

Openly speculating about who is and isn't a mason is anti-town, regardless of Nic's intentions.

I don't understand how you can think my intention was to lynch Josh/Jenn given my D1 play.

1) No, you said and I quote, GM was "the lesser of 3 evils", which implies you are most willing to lynch her, which implies you have the strongest scumread on her.

2) Not really. Revealing the masons gives us 2 confirmed town if anything, which is actually

pro

-town. Masons don't usually out themselves because for some reason people have this weird sense of "we need to keep them around" when we really don't; they're the equivalent of 3 goddamn ICs, why keep them hidden? [/rant]

3) I never said it was?

[Human Destroyer]

Addendum to #1: No town player should want to lynch a strong townread. Ever. That's blatantly anti-town play.

[Human Destroyer]

1) I even quoted how recently you said GM was a relatively strong townread; reads don't dilute that quickly and abruptly, especially stronger ones.

2) Speculating about it isn't really anti-town but that's a theory argument that can happen postgame.

3) Then make it apparent you're addressing NicCage and not me; you quoted me, so I assumed you were responding to me.

[Human Destroyer]

Also, HD, though you say it's a discussion for postgame, in just a few sentences, can you say how masons being revealed/claiming is a good thing? It means they'll be kill off, and so completely eliminates a very good source of information, i.e. who died and trying to figured out why those who died did, it doesn't really give people that much information as such, and while is does mean there are cleaned players, having a clean player alone doesn't help the village. Even if one were to be lynched, as in Panzer's case, they can just claim. Them being confirmed village shouldn't help there points much, as we should really be basing points and reads off of validity of arguments, and only partially who they come from. Overall, I just don't see it.

The tl;dr version is that it forces scum to deal with 2-3 confirmed town and makes their mislynch pool smaller.

[Human Destroyer]

I feel like I say this every goddamn page but the scumteam is GM/serra/Jacob; secondary would be GM/serra/Hydra

I don't know why people keep asking me who my scumreads are I mean I shove them in everyone's face in every post I make

[Human Destroyer]

Now going into that the main reason I personally have hd as scum (and els has said other stuff I think) is the way he's argued several things. Multiple times he's done more to try to make his argument seem better or longer then focus on the important thing or continuously fight back everything which reminds me of his play in my mini that ended a couple days ago. His argument style in this game is more I can argue better and respond more then focus on the meaning of things (most noticeable case is the things where he isos people and includes posts he thinks are town or most of the time any argument on something he'll attack back vs discuss or question as much).

Um...I hard lurked that game and didn't really argue much.

Nor did I make a single case.

So...???

Also meta tells don't work unless you have town meta to check too, so...try again.

[Human Destroyer]

If you lynch me, serra dies tomorrow

[Human Destroyer]

Then when serra flips scum the hydra (or Els if that's what ends up happening) or Jacob dies after

Plsthx

[Human Destroyer]

Yep, lynch me on a meta case based on exactly one scum game of mine without looking at a single town game

You'll go far [/sarcasm]

[Human Destroyer]

Votecount 1.5

Josh Lyman (L-2):

KX, ArcAngel9, Human Destroyer, NicCage, Venrob

Venrob (L-4):

goodmorning, Cheery Dog, serrapaladin

Klick (L-5):

Klick, JacobSavage

Not voting (3):

Spencer22, Josh Lyman, Docteur Gudsight

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

Votecount 1.6

Josh Lyman (L-1):

KX, ArcAngel9, Human Destroyer, NicCage, Venrob, Docteur Gudsight

Venrob (L-4):

goodmorning, Cheery Dog, serrapaladin

Klick (L-6):

JacobSavage

Not voting (4):

Spencer22, Josh Lyman, Klick

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

ArcAngel9 has been prodded. I'm still looking for a replacement for Spencer22

Also, happy birthday, Human Destroyer!

Votecount 1.7

Josh Lyman (L-1):

KX, Human Destroyer, NicCage, Venrob, Docteur Gudsight, goodmorning

Venrob (L-4):

goodmorning, Cheery Dog, serrapaladin

Klick (L-6):

JacobSavage

goodmoring (L-6):

ArcAngel9

Not voting (3):

Panzerjager, Josh Lyman, Klick

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

Josh Lyman hasn't picked up his prod, and as such, will be replaced.

GOODMORNING WAS NOT THE COUNTERWAGON TO JOSH LYMAN

VENROB WAS

THE HYDRA'S DEFENSE IS COMPLETELY FUCKING WRONG

[Human Destroyer]

HD, What do you mean by if you die, Serra dies. How is it works. Explain?

It means if you lynch me, I want serra lynched Day 3 as compensation

And uh, yeah, serra was pushing a Jacob counterwagon to goodmorning

They're right in the votecounts you quoted

Like really this is a completely retarded defense fo serra you're making here

[Human Destroyer]

Wait fuck that means it is GM/serra/Hydra

mk

[Human Destroyer]

But you agree that Jacob might be scum. How is it scummy of me to push Jacob as a counterwagon to GM?

Wait fuck that means it is GM/serra/Hydra

mk

Already noted that.

[Human Destroyer]

No you're missing my point

You're defending him on the basis he defended someone who had a counterwagon that was on scum

My point is that he was pushing a different counterwagon which could actually be considered a counterwagon to GM

So you're defense is invalid

[Human Destroyer]

EBWOP: your

[Human Destroyer]

Actually, Jacob was the #2 wagon which GM's wagon came up to meet and (eventually) surpass

So it is actually very plausible for scum-serra to go with the Jacob wagon

[Human Destroyer]

@bork:

If serra is scum, who do you think his partner is?

@Cheery:

Do you agree that someone starting a counterwagon to their supposed strongest scumread on their second-strongest is weird?

@Arc + Serra:

If Jacob is scum, who do you think his partner is?

@Jacob and Klick:

Content pls

[Human Destroyer]

Reasoning?

[Human Destroyer]

Yeah I'd be willing to switch to Els

[Human Destroyer]

Arc there's only 4 hours left

Please hammer serra or Hydra, but preferably serra

[Human Destroyer]

...you should be

[Human Destroyer]

Yeah ok

When serra flips scum

I'm going to be like "LOL I HATE TO SAY I TOLD YOU SO

BUT I TOLD YOU SO"

[Human Destroyer]

I doubt Jacob is serra's partner now

Jacob was a counterwagon to GM and serra joined it

So I'm kinda thinking he's town right now

[Human Destroyer]

If Serra flips scum Jacob looks better to me, if town then he should be tomorrow's lynch.

Then who were you talking about when you said he

[Human Destroyer]

Oh

I get it now

I read that completely wrong

[Human Destroyer]

^That was my first impression as well, haha

[Human Destroyer]

VOTE: Jacob

Placeholder, but probably not for long

[Human Destroyer]

Post 429 is the only thing that really gives me pause on Jacob-scum tbqh.

I mean it's kinda hard to forget your scumbuddy is in the game.

[Human Destroyer]

At the same time, that would be relatively easy to fake.

But GM wasn't getting lynched at that point.

Hmm.

No

UNVOTE:

[Human Destroyer]

Because I totally don't have other games to tend to during the night.

>.>

<.<

[Human Destroyer]

Els's argument WRT to me is shitty, not everyone looks at games during the night phase, and I definitely don't with my 15+ games.

bork, current reads on Cheery and KX?

[Human Destroyer]

Oh look

I pressed a couple buttons

Let's look at what buttons they are...

Spoiler: Keys I pressed

And look

Then I typed in goodmorning

And then look

I found that post

Oh snap

[Human Destroyer]

Yah but then I stopped tunneling

[Human Destroyer]

VOTE: Nic

Did a Ctrl+F through GM's iso for NicCage and Nic

She expresses a scum read on him all day that's shoddily explained and rarely revisited, but even when Panzer starts the counterwagon on Nic at the end of the day, she states support on it, but

she doesn't join.

It's weirder because...it's her counterwagon? If Nic was town, she'd be jumping ALL OVER his wagon.

P-Edit: I think it was wrong to use against Jacob, yes.

My thinking changed when I realized "Okay, serra flipped town, I'm doing something wrong here."

I don't think Jacob is as scummy as I made him out to be D1.

[Human Destroyer]

Oh yes definitely

serra-scum wouldn't have been pushing Jacob's wagon as a counter to GM-scum if Jacob was scum.

[Human Destroyer]

No, not anymore

I'd say Els is my second

[Human Destroyer]

Post 429 is the only thing that really gives me pause on Jacob-scum tbqh.

I mean it's kinda hard to forget your scumbuddy is in the game.

[Human Destroyer]

I don't think Jacob is smart enough to fake that in advance

(No offense)

[Human Destroyer]

Well, els' whole flip-around on serra was bullshit, I even pointed out how bullshit it was

The hydra was pushing all of Day 1 for a serra lynch...but when Day 2 comes...defends serra for defending a wagon where GM was supposedly the counterwagon,

when there was also a goddamn counterwagon on Jacob

.

I.E. hydra wants towncred for serra flip

[Human Destroyer]

Unlike you (or should i be more precise: like you pretend to do), i'm actually paying attention to flips. You are still pursuing day1 wagons as if nothing has changed while i'm taking into account flips. Serra was more or less cleared by gm flip.

Through faulty logic that I utterly disproved, but rather than actually realize "Hay he disproved it" you've pretty much just proceeded to just repeat it without actually trying to reprove the point

So

[Human Destroyer]

Um, no.

I disproved it with the fact that he was pushing a

completely different

counterwagon to both Josh/Jennifer

and

GM.

[Human Destroyer]

But instead you ignored that and said "lol he's only disproving it by saying it's WIFOM"

Which I did say

But I also said more

Don't strawman me too much, you'll get too blatant for even your scumpartner to save you

[Human Destroyer]

Wait holy fuck this just completely dawned on me

NicCage rode out the serra wagon based on my push, saying if he flipped scum, Els was scum with him

But since he flipped town (which Nic knew going in), he said Els could be town

Fuck this makes complete and total sense

...I think?

[Human Destroyer]

Wait holy fuck this just completely dawned on me

NicCage rode out the serra wagon based on my push, saying if he flipped scum, Els was scum with him

But since he flipped town (which Nic knew going in), he said Els could be town

Fuck this makes complete and total sense

...I think?

Read it Els

Read it and weep that I found your scumteam's strategy

And yeah no shit I'm going to go with the wagon I think will garner more support

Also, just to point this out again,

GM wagon rose to meet the Jacob wagon, not the other way around

. Your whole clearing of him was complete bullshit.

Have fun with that.

[Human Destroyer]

I.E. serra was pushing a #2 wagon that was a counter to a #1 wagon, but also to a newly formed #3 wagon

[Human Destroyer]

Find scumreads first, make connections later

...why is this scummy?

[Human Destroyer]

VOTE: Nic

Did a Ctrl+F through GM's iso for NicCage and Nic

She expresses a scum read on him all day that's shoddily explained and rarely revisited, but even when Panzer starts the counterwagon on Nic at the end of the day, she states support on it, but

she doesn't join.

It's weirder because...it's her counterwagon? If Nic was town, she'd be jumping ALL OVER his wagon.

P-Edit: I think it was wrong to use against Jacob, yes.

My thinking changed when I realized "Okay, serra flipped town, I'm doing something wrong here."

I don't think Jacob is as scummy as I made him out to be D1.

Nic is scummy independently of you

Well, els' whole flip-around on serra was bullshit, I even pointed out how bullshit it was

The hydra was pushing all of Day 1 for a serra lynch...but when Day 2 comes...defends serra for defending a wagon where GM was supposedly the counterwagon,

when there was also a goddamn counterwagon on Jacob

.

I.E. hydra wants towncred for serra flip

You are scummy independently of Nic

Wait holy fuck this just completely dawned on me

NicCage rode out the serra wagon based on my push, saying if he flipped scum, Els was scum with him

But since he flipped town (which Nic knew going in), he said Els could be town

Fuck this makes complete and total sense

...I think?

Associative tell between the two of you

So...what exactly about this is scum-driven?

[Human Destroyer]

And you haven't explained how it's scummy; rather you've just stated it is.

Why shouldn't I make connections between my two scumreads to make myself more confident in the reads as well as sell them to everyone else? Why wouldn't it make sense to do that from a town perspective?

I'm calling bullshit here.

[Human Destroyer]

Oh look

I'm posting my thoughts aloud

Please sheep me