Micro 267 - Indie Game: The UPick - Game Over!

[Turkish Van]

There can be only one!

VOTE: Trine

[Turkish Van]

^ sorry, that's PA

[Turkish Van]

Probably a bad idea to put TV to L-1 given that desperado is in this game

I don't recall Desperado being a derp-hammerer; why the hesitation, XScorpion? Do you like your vote on Grimgroove?

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Forgot to mention, we also got our first choice. Which would probably be more exciting if either of us knew diddly-squat about indie video games...

Speaking of games, this would seem to be the one we should check out around here...

Sorry, busy weekend.

The Scorpion and Grimgroove thing looks like town on town to me at the moment.

So you think Grimgroove is town and are voting him? And have no objection to XScorpion voting him?

VOTE: Hermy

[Turkish Van]

During the previos game I've played with Hermy, she set herself up as lynchbait in the beginning of the game as well. I would like to see her operate without any pressure at all before reaching any conclusions on that slot.

The last couple games I've played with her she did scummy things on Day One and WAS scum, actually: Micro 240 and Mini 1500. I'm not so inclined to give her a pass on anything here.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

I'm finding it a bit harder than normal to get into this game. I'm not sure if it's because there's a lot of newer players I don't have experience with. I know only {BRO, Desperdo, GG}. Which for some reason in itself I'm having trouble getting a read on any of those three players too. Desperado I don't have much experience in reading as I only played with Town-Town Desp-Mala once the rest we were either scum-buddies or I was scum against a town Desperado. GG is interesting as I was only scum with him once, played with town GG twice and read him wrong twice and scum GG I had pinged in gut, but never followed it up well. As for BRO I really have only played against him as scum so it was a lot easier to fabricate a read on him off his posts.

Peng and I are currently discussing Hermy. However I don't really see how the "slap fight" between GG and XS is alignment indicative as any player can forget where the votes are. I want her to explain that further.

However I can say GG defending Hermy in a sense to keep pressure off her is eyeballing. My gut says it's partner defending a partner, but I feel like it's most likely scum defending possible town for some cred if Hermy were to flip in the future.

(Also this is the only time I will sign my posts. Any posts not signed is likely Mala in the future)

~ Mala

Vote Count 1.04

Turkish Van (2) - Who, Trine
Grimgroove (2) - Hermy, XScorpion
Hermy (2) - Turkish Van, Desperado
XScorpion (1) - BROseidon
Trine (1) - Grimgroove

Not Voting (1) - Sanhora

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

Deadline is on December 14th, 12 p.m. PST.

Countdown:
(expired on 2013-12-14 12:00:00)

[Turkish Van]

Yeah, I know he did, just posting kinda-but-not-really-bad-sarcasm.

I put in at the moment because those were my opinions at that particular time. Simple as that.

But I don't see how it's at all alignment indicative at all. Like I said anyone can forget and mess up votes and currently counting. I'm not even sure how your gut is reading it as town or even scum. For me it's one of those null section areas for me.

I have to go reread Trine and Hermy. I know Trine was also defending Hermy to an extent, but GG's popped out to me because I haven't really experienced GG so early to defend someone.

[Turkish Van]

I'm finding it a bit harder than normal to get into this game. I'm not sure if it's because there's a lot of newer players I don't have experience with. I know only {BRO, Desperdo, GG}. Which for some reason in itself I'm having trouble getting a read on any of those three players too. Desperado I don't have much experience in reading as I only played with Town-Town Desp-Mala once the rest we were either scum-buddies or I was scum against a town Desperado. GG is interesting as I was only scum with him once, played with town GG twice and read him wrong twice and scum GG I had pinged in gut, but never followed it up well. As for BRO I really have only played against him as scum so it was a lot easier to fabricate a read on him off his posts.

Peng and I are currently discussing Hermy. However I don't really see how the "slap fight" between GG and XS is alignment indicative as any player can forget where the votes are. I want her to explain that further.

However I can say GG defending Hermy in a sense to keep pressure off her is eyeballing. My gut says it's partner defending a partner, but I feel like it's most likely scum defending possible town for some cred if Hermy were to flip in the future.

(Also this is the only time I will sign my posts. Any posts not signed is likely Mala in the future)

~ Mala

You say you are "currently discussing" Hermy with the other head. What is there to discuss? What did you discuss? Why Hermy specifically?

And for the record, before this thing starts leading its own life: I never defended Hermy. I simply advocated another approach based on my earlier experiences with her. Just read the game I linked you to earlier you'll see perfectly where I'm coming from. Even that game itself I had resevrations about Baezu because of her lynchbait characteristics, but still went after her in the end after she failed in some reaction tests. And I went after Hermy for not recognizing the fact she was lynchbait as well. Lynchbaits are lynchbaits exactly because they fail reaction tests, regardless of alignment. So how to discern the alignment of lynchbait? Not through reaction tests, but by letting them act on their own accord.

Penguin was in that game as well by the way.

Did you read the other two games I referenced? Because Hermy was actually scum in those two games, and not following through in the Narnia game meant that she survived Day One and the one-shot cop had to use his shot on her, IIRC. So I'm not inclined to give her oodles of space in a Micro game.

I like XScorpion's vote on Who. Not because I'm particularly suspicious of Who, but because it shows he's not resting on his reads.

Although I'm not sure about this 'vote as a reaction test while calling it a reaction test' thing.

Will calibrate with Mala before moving forward.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

You didn't really answer my question. You said you were "discussing" Hermy at a time where we were still pretty early on in the game.

I've seen the reference to in-hydra discussions used as a towntell, somehow showing the genuinety of the scumhunting hydra,k but I'm not sold in this case. I want to know what Malakittens said about Hermy, I want to know what you said about Hermy. I want to know what you supposedly discussed.

I was pointing out my knowledge of scum-Hermy; Mala felt less sure because of not having played with Hermy herself before. I double-checked my memories of Hermy in Narnia because I stopped reading closely after BRO and I died, and it lined up with the SK-Hermy micro game. Self-conscious, nervous. Frankly Mala didn't have much to say indicating that I was wrong, but without personal meta experience to back it up, she's less confident in the vote.

Woah woah bad entrance...can't believe I missed that vote right before me...*facepalm*

UNVOTE:

I don't feel like it's time for L-1 yet.

...and here we have another person dancing around L-1. If you think someone's the scummiest, you vote them if it's not going to be a quickhammer. Sure, you make a note of it at L-1, but if not now, what is the right time for L-1?

Overview of BRO's post:
'Loses tenper'/writes in caps to seem all towny.
Uses a sarcastic-y insult.
Throws down a not-all-that-great vote.

VOTE: BRO

I believe it is L-1 now. Although if anyone is planning to kick up a huge fuss then I'll unvote.

After Micro 240, I refuse to believe Hermy doesn't get that hesitating around L-1 isn't pro-town. Hence my belief that it's coming from a genuine scum-Hermy fear of drawing scrutiny.

XScorpion, how are you planning to get a read on Hermy, given what you know of her?

I'm going to wait and see what she contributes. At the moment I have no reason to think she is town and a good reason to think she is scum, so I'll have to see if that changes. There are scummier people to deal with right now though who you aren't defending as 'lynch-bait'. If we lynch someone else (besides you) and they flip scum I'll be more likely to think that she isn't scum.

GG has spent so much time trying to defend Hermy that I would not be surprised if there was a Hermy-hammer set up to finish BRO off before he could claim

Can you explain the connection between me defending Hermy and Hermy hammering BROseidon?

Hermy is the person most likely to get away with a hammer and not immediately die the next day because both you and her would make excuses saying that 'oh it's because she's lynch-bait' etc. etc.

I like XScorpion's critical thinking here. Town read.

I always claim before intent to hammer because I don't trust 2/3 of people on this site.

Penguin and I just got out of a game with Hermy where she was being a complete derp and was scum. I have no experience with her towngame (although apparently she did once self-vote in LyLo as town)

This pings with the mentality I'd expect from BRO. Game in question is Narnia again; BRO, if you're so inclined, check out Micro 248 where Hermy got run up as town. Her play was eccentric there, but IIRC she wasn't straight-up scum-telling.

Trine correcting course in their discussion with Desperado leans town. Desperado himself is mostly saying things I agree with, although I think he dismissed BRO looking at the votes on Hermy critically a bit too quickly.

Desperado, you moved to TierShift. What's your current thinking about Hermy?

My read on Who is giving me whiplash between weirdly executed proclaimed reaction tests and engaging with BRO's decision to claim for fear of a Hermy-hammer.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

I was pointing out my knowledge of scum-Hermy; Mala felt less sure because of not having played with Hermy herself before. I double-checked my memories of Hermy in Narnia because I stopped reading closely after BRO and I died, and it lined up with the SK-Hermy micro game. Self-conscious, nervous. Frankly Mala didn't have much to say indicating that I was wrong, but without personal meta experience to back it up, she's less confident in the vote.

Why didn't Malakittens post in this game yet?

I have?

I'm busy. should and will catch up after my early morning shift. I like being able to get on the same time as Peng to talk about reads and stuff.

~ Mala

[Turkish Van]

Turkish Van,

What are your thoughts about Who?

~ Zoya

Given that it was pretty clear which head was going after him, I'm not sure why Who bothered to chase down the rabbithole of matching you up to a head. I don't see town motivation for the sidetrack; looked more like him seeing which heads he had to appeal to.

I don't think the admission of being dazed and confused was scummy. The seeming intention to remain that way, yes. Also, looking through his ISO, this:

I wanted to see the difference between Desperado's reaction to that and Desperado's reaction to this:
VOTE: Desperado

His lack of reaction to my voteless accusation.

UNVOTE:

Desp goes back to null.

sequence, if you look at the intervening posts, Desperado totally ignores him. A) it's a bad reaction test to announce it, B) the complete lack of response is enough to tell him something? Looks like scum posturing to me.

I still think Hermy is scummy, and the flaking thing doesn't change that, but I wouldn't object to a Who lynch.

More after this weekend when we have more time.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Given that it was pretty clear which head was going after him, I'm not sure why Who bothered to chase down the rabbithole of matching you up to a head. I don't see town motivation for the sidetrack; looked more like him seeing which heads he had to appeal to.

I disagree. Who is at a disadvantage to Trine in that he doesn't know who he's talking to but they do, so I can easily see town-Who asking that question in hopes of creating a level playing field.

I get that it's an awkward position to be in, to be talking to someone who knows you when you don't know their identity, but the timing of it feels less curious and more 'looking for ways to derail the case.'

I don't buy the write-off of the Desperado vote/unvote.

VOTE: Who

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Day off is tomorrow.

Catching up

because a post a day keeps the prod away

~

[Turkish Van]

Catching up when I wake up *

[Turkish Van]

Other head posting now.

Would still lynch Who. Torn on whether TierShift is lynchbait or scum overplaying his hand as per BRO's comment.

I look forward to MME's catch-up; just finished a game with him in Little Italy where I was vaguely scum reading him more because he wasn't as town as my town reads but less scummy than my scum reads, if that's coherent. Hermy's play left me with no compunctions about lynching the slot, but I want to hear his impressions.

I get that it's an awkward position to be in, to be talking to someone who knows you when you don't know their identity, but the timing of it feels less curious and more 'looking for ways to derail the case.'

huh?

How would knowing the identity of the person dancing with him help him derail the case?

Knowing who was arguing the case isn't as important to everyone else as discussing the case itself. By engaging in trying to find out a hidden hydra head's identity, he was distracting from the point at hand and increasing the odds that people would forget that he'd never addressed the actual issue.

BRO, you pointed out TierShift's reaction to Who's post. Do you think he's buddying or propping up a scum buddy?

GG, as you catch up, I'd like your take on Who.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Loving how who is suddenly like "your" wagon peng. Not that I care which player takes credit for a scumlynch, seeing myself as the first vote on the wagon is reward in and of itself.

...did I say it was my wagon? If so, apologies; no credit-snatching intended. 3 AM posting =/= coherent penguin, apparently.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

So, I'm currently liking Trine and BRO for town. Trine due to the pressure and overall posting seems townish. BRO seems very much like the BRO in Xeno 2.

I don't really like Tier nor Who. Tier is for ~reasons~ and I can not explain at the moment however gut pings like no tomorrow. I found myself nodding along in a post Peng made earlier.


Desperado feels a bit disconnected from the game, but not really sure why.


I think I need to do a fresh new reread of the whole thread when I wake up any of my living brain cells (work is draining me.)

[Turkish Van]

It'd be Who's, methinks.

Tier wagon has more traction and I like it more right now.

Still don't get why everyone else is reading grim as town but w/e. I'll be visiting him tonight unless I say otherwise.

I'd go with a Tier lynch. His Hermy vote after all his time pushing Desperado without a vote is bad, and I tend to agree with you that Who and Tier are unlikely partners.

I kind of expect better from Who still and don't want to give up there.

If Tier flipped scum, posts like this:

Grimgroove, we haven't really interacted so far, can you give out a read on me? Can you also answer xS's earlier question as to why you are not voting?

would make me support your planned action entirely.

Otherwise Grimgroove is leaning town for me based on his skepticism of the Hermy wagon and his tendency not to surface-accept things.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

TierShift, your whole, 'GG, we haven't interacted: let's find a way to interact!' pings.

Desperado, so when Trine said you weren't posting much you conceded the point, but when Mala noted that trend continuing three days later with no content in the interim, you're suddenly confused about it?

If I wanted TierShift lynched, I'd be voting him. If you wanted to argue that I'm pushing Who while halfheartedly supporting the TierShift wagon, I'd agree; the reverse is not the case.

--PA

P-edit: Catching up on new posts in a sec.

[Turkish Van]

XScorpion, you have no preference between TierShift and Who? Like, flipping a coin level of no preference? If nothing else, what do you think of the people voting each wagon?

--PA

[Turkish Van]

@ TV: Trine said I wasn't "Putting as much into this game as I could" which is accurate, but is not the same as being disengaged. I've been in the middle of pretty much every major event in the game, which is why your comment rubbed me the wrong way.

Got it. That makes more sense.

UNVOTE: Who

I'm not totally convinced that this isn't scum trying to eke out another day to get some advantage, but if he keeps acting shady we can revisit the lynch another day and not waste the obvious benefits if he's town.

I'd like to hear from MME before moving our vote elsewhere.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Trine/Amadeus has a point about scum not killing Who if it resulted in back-to-back dead townies. Which means that getting a conf-town Who today is likely a better deal than what we'd get down the line, even if he would find it boring to play.

The role also implies no way for more than one death per night, as that could bring back three players and would totally strain . And with BRO's more believable weak visitor claim, it's less feasible.

I want to get Mala's thoughts before proceeding.

Also, TierShift being fine with being lynched after Who's claim looks bad too. Again, most likely not both scum, but scum-TS could be trying to minimize the damage of his faction killing Who if he believes the claim. Less feasible given the likely size of a scum faction in a Micro, but Who's role, if town, could imply a > 2p Mafia group as well.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

TierShift, why would Who necessarily want to have played in a way that draws the NK? What if he did that and we'd lynched scum? Then his getting NK's resurrects scum as well. Being policy lynched on a non-D1 day is nominally better, but on the whole of it, playing as town as possible and waiting for an opportune day to rewind is ideal.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

TierShift, why would Who necessarily want to have played in a way that draws the NK? What if he did that and we'd lynched scum? Then his getting NK's resurrects scum as well. Being policy lynched on a non-D1 day is nominally better, but on the whole of it, playing as town as possible and waiting for an opportune day to rewind is ideal.

--PA

Of all the things, this is what you choose to reply to?

Because it was something that other people weren't already discussing and I wanted to know more about his thought process as far as why he thought Who had misplayed his role badly enough to justify the lynch.

You backed off of the Who wagon awfully quick after his claim, while still voicing suspicion on him. It smells like distancing.

-Amadeus

No, it smells like it was a claim that merited further discussion. I unvoted to buy that discussion time and consider how such a non-standard role would work to our advantage if it was true. I think that there were a lot of ways to handle the claim that weren't lynching him Day One, most obviously telling him that he would be expected to use it at the first opportunity to bring back zero dead scum and minimum one dead townie or be policy lynched.

At the time I unvoted, Who was at L-1. The threat of having multiple living confirmed town a couple days into the game might have been enough to make scum quickhammer that wagon. Given how quickly it built back up, I sure don't regret the unvote.

I believe [Tier's] claim. Flavor fits and his page 20 posting feels really honest and I got a town vibe from that. Unvote

Looking at TierShift's posts on page 20, that's where he starts pushing you as scum. As such, this looks a lot like you backing off someone who pushes back at you in a way that has a good chance of defusing their suspicion. What feels so honest, and what makes you believe the claim beyond it fitting flavor?

I don't like the way MME is defending his not following a logical plan from BRO when it was presented to him under the guise of wanting to make his own mistakes.

Looking back at Trine pre-Who lynch:

Who is not town!

Let me spell it out for you guys: That ability is way too powerful and game breaking for a game of this size, especially since

roles were determined before alignment

and this role is predicated on the user being town. Let's not forget that there are better ways to create a role centered around Who's character. For instance, and this one is just off the top of my head, resetting the day phase, deadline and all. No alignments are revealed, it's not game breaking, and it's perfect as either alignment. Furthermore, and I can't stress this enough,

there is no way town would claim this role at this point, especially with the way he claims the time travel mechanic works

. Who as town would be better off letting himself get lynched, having his role and alignment revealed, claiming after the reset happens, and then basking in the conf. town glory. And if you think that scum would kill him if he had that role, think again. Would scum really kill someone who could create 2 conf. town upon death? No freaking way! It's too convenient. It's too overpowered. And most of all,

there is absolutely no reason to claim, especially to escape a lynch

. This is a survival tactic, plain and simple. And there's only one alignment that wants to survive that much.

-Amadeus

The idea here that Who was better off being lynched without claiming his role is ludicrous. People have pointed out how Who's role would have been better used even if we'd policy lynched him Day Two. The rationale here for staying on the wagon doesn't follow. Sure, scum wouldn't kill him in a situation where it wasn't to their advantage, but given that his power was also useable without him dying it wouldn't have been up to them.

Right now My Milked Eek tops my list.

VOTE: My Milked Eek

[Turkish Van]

Didn't we already determine that alignments were randomized after games were submitted but before roles were made? Which makes any game feasible for any alignment.

With three claimed roles already, I'm not seeing that unclaimed scum has much wiggle room. Flavor claiming would more likely give scum the lay of the land and give them more time to optimize their eventual claims.

If TierShift is scum as well, it works even more to scum's advantage, as the ratio of town-sharing to scum-sharing skews further in scum's favor.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

I would lynch either MME or TS at this point; 652 is pretty off as XScorpion points out, but my read on MME hasn't changed either.

Who, what's your current take on MME?

--PA

[Turkish Van]

I'm finding it difficult to see why TierShift is still a lynch-option considering his claim. There'd have to be Masons for his role to have any use for Scum and I don't see that happening in a game this size.

Tomorrow I'm catching up before Christmas holidays start, at which I'll be V/LA'ing, so I'll try to make it count.

I believe he claimed he might get messages from the dead QT, which given that the people who would be posting there would be known in collective if presumably not identified would also be useful for scum.

If he doesn't get lynched and is scum though we'll be able to see what he brings back, which could be useful either way. If we end up compromising between TS and MME as BRO suggested I'd still favor MME.

Who, where are you?

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Not really had the time to talk to Peng, but I been leaning town on XSorp and as for Trine I'm sorta unsure on.

[Turkish Van]

Who and Desperado, what are your current thoughts on an MME lynch?

--PA

[Turkish Van]

With Grimgroove's slot absent and BRO on V/LA and Trine quite determined that their logic is the only possible town logic, I guess hammer intent falls to us.

Desperado's case is good, and bottom line is I can't buy scum wouldn't have wanted to eliminate the chance of Who's power being legit ASAP.

MME flat-out refusing to claim is awful, but at least it locks him in somewhat.

I want to get Mala's take, but consider this this head's intent to hammer within 12 hours.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

No, I'm saying that you're choosing to present your logic as the bestest town logic.

Deadline's in around 24 hours. I'd rather not run it up to the minute here, especially given that deadline's going to fall on a weekend. If you guys are still deciding though, by all means, I'll wait.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

OK counting apparently isn't my strong suit.

I'd like to get Trine's take on TS before the day ends here.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Yeah, his last reads don't change anything for me.

VOTE: TierShift

[Turkish Van]

No idea what's going on, and my instincts would probably be completely wrong anyways. Until Mala gets back in commission, I'll sheep BRO here. There's a lot that doesn't make sense right now.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Brace yourselves.

We are Amadeus, Zoya and Pontius from Trine.

Popcorn to Turkish Van.

~ Zoya

We're the Crazy Cat Scientist from Mousecraft.

Popcorn to ETL.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

I have a REALLY hard time seeing MME as an informative/investigation role. For me this feels like the setup is super town sided and super is just small amount of how I really feel.

We have currently claimed:

Who - Town Reviver {Basically now an IC}
BRO - Weak Visitor {Basically and essentially a cop}
MME - Tracker {Basically a cop}
TS - QT Spy
XScrop - Friendly Neighbor
Desperado - Delayed DayKiller [?]
ETL - Flavor Cop [?]
Trine - ??
TV - Not tellin'.

Unless scum have some whacky/awesome powers someone here is lying. We have Who is modconfirmed to be town (467.)

We have BRO claiming to be RB'd or something, but Penguin think he's town and I also believe that so I'm letting that go from now.

TS/Desperado are confirmed due to deaths {lynch/NK}.

XSc is claiming to be a friendly neighbor which has the mod send a message to another playing saying 'I'm town'. Whoever my paranoia is getting the best of me and wondering if he's a mailman pretending to be a friendly neighbor. A mailman works very similar to a friendly neighbor.

Trine pulls up a good point on MME. Claiming to have an 'useless' role, but a tracker isn't useless. So wondering if he could be fake claiming this role on ETL.

I just need to move my car into the street. Back in a few

~Mala

[Turkish Van]

Is anyone here looking for someone else?

Can you give me your thoughts you MME/ETL and how there's three people claiming to be a different 'variant' of an informative role?

[Turkish Van]

And to add your thoughts on Xscorp.

[Turkish Van]

Actually MME the more your role comes out and it's been coming out in pieces I'm questioning it all together. You left out a vital part of your claim and just put it in your last post. You said it yourself your results are possible not to be sane, but had you been wrong about ETL and if you are both town.. We could easily lose this game. You acted like you had just a finding like a cop w/ a guilty, but you been backpedaling since Trine brought up that you called your role useless.

So which is it? Are you scum trying to bide an extra day or are you town with possibly not a sane result on another player?

[Turkish Van]

Oh and penguin continues to play a very lurktastical lazy game. Mala at least has an excuse.

to be fair Peng did a majority of Day 1 and Day 1 redux posting. I'm just starting to slowly feel better so I'm taking the wheel to give her a bit of a break.

[Turkish Van]

So I got yelled at by the other two heads to come play. So somebody tell me who is scum and why. I see we have conflicitng night claims?

Oh and bro. You around bro? I need to tell you something without telling the others so it's time to use our top secrit crumbing style.

ELT is saying she targetted xscorp.
MME is claiming that ELT targetted xscorp AND desperado.

MME is slowly coming out with all of the facts of her claim. Claims that she can make a target go "insane", but yet is still dead set on ELT scum even though she doesn't know if her role made ETL go to two places or not.

[Turkish Van]

I just feel like MME's claim isn't legit at all, but a scum trying to make a quick lynch, but with that not happening she's trying to slowly leak facts through and it's not really working.

Something is just fishy about MME to me

[Turkish Van]

It's just we got three "claimed" informative roles. Two roles that are similar to an IC {Who/Xscorp}. Not to mention a QT spy & Desperado's role.

It just seems really town sided. I feel like Xscorp could be lying and trying to play another role similar to a friendly neighbor or MME's role is scum.

[Turkish Van]

I have a REALLY hard time seeing MME as an informative/investigation role. For me this feels like the setup is super town sided and super is just small amount of how I really feel.

We have currently claimed:

Who - Town Reviver {Basically now an IC}
BRO - Weak Visitor {Basically and essentially a cop}
MME - Tracker {Basically a cop}
TS - QT Spy
XScrop - Friendly Neighbor
Desperado - Delayed DayKiller [?]
ETL - Flavor Cop [?]
Trine - ??
TV - Not tellin'.

Unless scum have some whacky/awesome powers someone here is lying. We have Who is modconfirmed to be town (467.)

We have BRO claiming to be RB'd or something, but Penguin think he's town and I also believe that so I'm letting that go from now.

TS/Desperado are confirmed due to deaths {lynch/NK}.

XSc is claiming to be a friendly neighbor which has the mod send a message to another playing saying 'I'm town'. Whoever my paranoia is getting the best of me and wondering if he's a mailman pretending to be a friendly neighbor. A mailman works very similar to a friendly neighbor.

Trine pulls up a good point on MME. Claiming to have an 'useless' role, but a tracker isn't useless. So wondering if he could be fake claiming this role on ETL.

I just need to move my car into the street. Back in a few

~Mala

[Turkish Van]

We're JK. We targeted Trine last night because a) we didn't like their push on the Who lynch, b) we didn't like their push on us, and c) since BRO was targeting them we wanted to remove ambiguity about what the result might be.

So Mala told me to stop whining, although she was nicer than that, and to get back in here.

Double JOATs wouldn't be the oddest thing in this game. Which of you is finding it suspect first though.

MME goes from having a neg. utility useless role to being a tracker to being a tracker with questionable results. The Gravedigger role comes to mind here.

Trine, why did you dodge BRO last night?

[Turkish Van]

Also, ignored spate of posts showing up in preview. More coming.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Trine, MME, piss off. I'm glad that you don't have a crappy tablet with a battery that won't stay charged. Pre-owned certified replacements, my ass.

Last time I played a game with two JOATs, the weak claim was town, and the strong one was scum faking. You happen to have a doc and roleblock, but opted to let BRO be a target, skipping town?

And now you think BRO's so brilliant at Mafia theory but you wouldn't follow his plan on Who?

VOTE: Trine

[Turkish Van]

I'm thinking about it, but I'm not inclined to discuss it with you at present. If you want to leave your opinion to be considered if you flip town, fine, but I don't see that happening.

At this point I'll be advocating to Mala that we protect within {Who, XScorp} even if it does block XScorp's message.

MME, if you know how to make a tablet with a rundown battery work, do share with the class. Otherwise, again, piss off.

Also not voting ETL right now because a) I think Trine's scummier overall, and b) MME conveniently can't explain his role with the insane issue, so I don't trus his claimed result.

[Turkish Van]

Might be feasible to to have ETL use the observing mask tonight, given that either Trine flips scum and ETL becomes a target in her own right or, less likely, Trine flips town and if we have two town JOATs, scum won't kill the resulting lynchbait and we at least get info. If EtL is scum, she has to make something up come tomorrow.

She can make her own choice, allowing for the bodyguard option to mess with scum, but I wouldn't take the investigative option off the table.

[Turkish Van]

MME, it's all well and good if you can't explain it, but if you can't define your ability, you can't expect us to figure it out for you.

Trine, you're welcome to call for our lynch. It won't mean much when you flip scum.

[Turkish Van]

MME, it's all well and good if you can't explain it, but if you can't define your ability, you can't expect us to figure it out for you.

Trine, you're welcome to call for our lynch. It won't mean much when you flip scum.

Because onehead is better than 7 amirite

You can't figure out your role and you have access to the original text. In the meantime, you've gone through several different explanations. Legit confused town would have been upfront about the situation, assuming you even used a role that was supposedly detrimental to begin with.

TV, your choices are going to look horrible when seen in the light of our flip.

This pleases us.

Horrible or scummy, do decide.

[Turkish Van]

/in before they answer 'both'

[Turkish Van]

VICTORY

OK, as much fun as this is, since one of the claimed JOAT will be alive, I'll call dibs on protecting Who, since the roleblock part of our role won't hurt him, and the BG/doc can go on XScorp. If BRO and XScorp strongly favor it, we can shift that to me on XScorp and the non-blocking JOAT protect on BRO.

[Turkish Van]

When you were at L-1, you said:

@Desp
The situation is entirely different. In that other L-1 instance I hadn't provided any content yet and I felt I could swing it around. It doesn't matter here. I provided insights and comments. Defended myself. I've done what I could. It's no use going at it for another few RL days when I'm almost certain I can't change people's minds. Even if I make it to D2, I'm a liability.

Claiming has no use. In fact, I would get extra lynched by claiming. My character is so ridiculous that I assume whoever picked this game wanted to be scum. And if I assume what the mod isn't willing to tell me, then my role isn't as helpful as I thought it was. Might lose us the game even.


What I want from you... I gave up on this game with that post. Or at least on defending myself or on the players. But this close to a lynch and considering everyone's perception of me at this point, I lost my motivation. I spent quite a few pages defending a mistake. I tried convincing everyone else of scorpscum, I'm the only one on him. What I've done is useless, what I could do to prevent a lynch is useless. Ironically, being useless and admitting it is what put you off my wagon. Even my role might be counterproductive, it might even lose us the game as it would lead to a series of mislynches, amongst which: mine. Claiming it makes no sense.

That's a ways from your having a track result that's apparently partially accurate and quite a change in tone.

[Turkish Van]

VICTORY

OK, as much fun as this is, since one of the claimed JOAT will be alive, I'll call dibs on protecting Who, since the roleblock part of our role won't hurt him, and the BG/doc can go on XScorp. If BRO and XScorp strongly favor it, we can shift that to me on XScorp and the non-blocking JOAT protect on BRO.

Yes absolutely you should protect the town who's been a worthless lurksack before and after he was confirmed.

Unbelievable.

Well, I'm not targeting BRO. If BRO and XScorp want us on XScorp, I'm fine with that, although I'd give priority to XScorp's opinion, seeing as he's the one who'd be blocked.

P-edit: your D1 claim post indicates you did so before claiming, assuming it even exists. Seems like a plausible excuse for a scum tracker to pin the kill on a townie.

Empathy? What does empathy have to do with this?

[Turkish Van]

OK, so I'm asking him why, having claimed a role that he thought could lose the game for town, he used it. I think I've been clear about what I'm questioning, but maybe not, so:

MME, if you thought your role was problematic and could screw town, why did you use it?

[Turkish Van]

BRO explicitly not getting results matches what happened to us. We were told that our JK ability failed (not sure why a non-results providing ability merited a notification of success/fail) but told that we wouldn't be informed as to the reason.

Could have JK'd Who, sure. But with no outed protective roles, the odds of scum going for the obvious kill was lowered, and we also had the roleblocking aspect of our role to consider.

I didn't want to get into this, but my other thought with BRO was that he could be a hider who was keeping an ace up his sleeve. JKing you was win-win: either we block scum or we make sure we preserve BRO's result, especially if BRO was a hider who could have been killed by targeting you. The line of thought there felt dangerous in terms of reigniting town's paranoia about BRO, given BRO's history of using the hider role very effectively.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

OK, I'm trying to be patient here. What I don't understand is why a town-MME would risk insanifying someone whose role/actions were completely unknown. What if ETL had been protecting someone and MME's action caused the protectee to die? What, in your mind, made it worth the risk?

[Turkish Van]

So when Trine flips scum, XScorp, what's your vote for the protective roles? You-BRO for JK-bodyguard, or Who-you for the same?

Would still like to hear from MME, but I don't hold out much hope there.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

So when Trine flips scum, XScorp, what's your vote for the protective roles? You-BRO for JK-bodyguard, or Who-you for the same?

Would still like to hear from MME, but I don't hold out much hope there.

--PA

There are 3 logical choices for protection (Me, Bro, Who). Obviously you shouldn't JK Bro, but otherwise no need to tell scum who is protecting whom. Decide on your own.

Roger that.

[Turkish Van]

Why the fuck is that a jailkeeper role?

We apparently contain the mice. Sadly we don't get to hunt them. Cat is perpetually disappointed.

Would still like to hear from MME, but I don't hold out much hope there.

--PA

Why not? I've answered all your question (the same questions over and over again, but I answered them).

I'm finding this one a bit harder to answer because I can't find another, less crude way to say that I'm a dumb fuck who gambled during night one.

OK, so the problem here is that everyone in the game making suboptimal decisions is saying they're town for doing so. I'm aware that I tend to scumread people whose logic doesn't square with mine, sometimes wrongly, but there's still a limit to what I'm willing to accept as foolish town. And that everyone who ignored BRO's plan in favor of hopping on the Who wagon was town, and you used a dangerous ability blindly, and Trine ducked out while they knew they'd be under investigation is just way too much for me to accept from remotely competent town.

[Turkish Van]

Tell me why your choice of jailkeeping Trine isn't suboptimal?

BRO explicitly not getting results matches what happened to us. We were told that our JK ability failed (not sure why a non-results providing ability merited a notification of success/fail) but told that we wouldn't be informed as to the reason.

Could have JK'd Who, sure. But with no outed protective roles, the odds of scum going for the obvious kill was lowered, and we also had the roleblocking aspect of our role to consider.

I didn't want to get into this, but my other thought with BRO was that he could be a hider who was keeping an ace up his sleeve. JKing you was win-win: either we block scum or we make sure we preserve BRO's result, especially if BRO was a hider who could have been killed by targeting you. The line of thought there felt dangerous in terms of reigniting town's paranoia about BRO, given BRO's history of using the hider role very effectively.

--PA

Where the 'you' in the above is Trine. Basically either we would block scum in the persons of Trine, or if we were wrong about Trine we keep BRO's town result safe and cut off the possibility of BRO dying as a hider if a scum team without Trine tried to kill Trine.

[Turkish Van]

Trine and MME. It tracks with the supposed night action choices and explains their resistance to the TS lynch, as losing the only townie who fell for the Who lynch post-claim would leave them exposed.

[Turkish Van]

Trine and MME. It tracks with the supposed night action choices and explains their resistance to the TS lynch, as losing the only townie who fell for the Who lynch post-claim would leave them exposed.

What if, and let's go really crazy with this assumption, I actually read Tier as a newbtown?

Sure, that's possible, but it doesn't exclude the quoted motivation either.

Look, you keep wanting me to come up with explanations for your actions that come from town motivations. Trouble is, Who's conf-town, XScorpion is effectively conf-town, and I'm having a really hard time imagining that BRO is anything but town, given that he hinted to getting the same feedback from targeting Trine that we did. That means scum is in {Trine, ETL, MME} and I'm not seeing a Trine-ETL team here...which would be a slight understatement.

Professed motivations are relevant, sure, but what I know to be true is what's happened in the thread. I can say that I'm doing what I'm doing for whatever reasons I want; that doesn't and shouldn't stop others from speculating on my motivations. Their job isn't to excuse my poor choices; it's finding scum.

Also, remarks about the same quote:

Why are you refusing to play this game? I mean, we're 1125 posts into this game and all I've seen you talk about is the who lynch and my claim. It's really obvious how hard you're trying to avoid other players/situations.

Also, aren't you a hydra? I find it hard to believe that a hydra would play this uniform. I can't believe both heads are this dense. Of course, it makes sense if you're scum. I really can't see anything else but scum in your slot. Why aren't you signing your posts?


And I reiterate, I'd rather lynch TV today than [ETL|Trine].

Yeah...because I said nothing Day One. And I haven't talked to and about Trine's play here. I haven't discussed protection issues with XScorpion and BRO. I'll grant that I haven't interacted with Who, but then Who's barely done anything today. Looks to me more like that the only things from me you've been concerned with reading have been about the Who lynch and your claim. Scum-centered much?

Mala's sick, so very few of our posts are coming from her. She is backstopping things in our QT, and my general hydra philosophy is to keep as much of the dissonance behind the scenes as possible. A bit has leaked through, but so far in my approaches to hydras I've tried not to make people get whiplash reading our posts. I can point you toward completed hydra games if you'd like.

Yes, sometimes I forget to sign. Sometimes it's reasonably apparent that it's me writing. Sometimes it just doesn't matter. If there's an unsigned post you're confused about, speak up. Otherwise I'm sure not seeing what that has to do with anything here.

--PA

[Turkish Van]

Also this ended up in a different reply window:

I've actually had a misconception about the JK role. Apparently, it is not default behavior to prevent anyone from targetting the jailkept person. I thought that jailkeeping Trine would prevent Bro from visiting him. Which is what I found odd about your choice.

That would be a rolestopping function rather than a roleblocking one. And it wouldn't stop BRO from visiting him; it would only keep any role effects from resolving on Trine, if I understand the wiki properly. I think rolestopping someone's target wouldn't prevent them from losing a shot, but it might keep a weak role insulated from any fallout.

--PA