Newbie 1494 -- Game Over

[Moonlight]

I have townreads of varying degrees on Tony, Conman, and Kenobi. I don't really have any scumreads as of yet, but Squirrel is on her way there.

conman, Tony and Squirrel I get. But Kenobi after 55? Hmmm.

VOTE: Kenobi

Now, should I provide my reasoning, or let a few people guess first so I can determine how they think? Decisions, decisions.

Oh and hi.

[Moonlight]

I have a heavy dislike for RachMarie's posts due to believing that Tony made the RVS almost unnecessary. Alas, my wincon says nothing about lynching those I don't agree with, so. *shrugs*

[Moonlight]

Indeed. Would your vote be random, by any chance?

[Moonlight]

I'd say that only 52 is something I have a minor problem with. Does that have to do something to do with your vote?

[Moonlight]

^ I spoken many bester England.

[Moonlight]

Speaking of minor problems,

To be distracting? You think that placing song lyrics in thread is distracting enough that it offers me some tangible benefit of cluttering up the thread, moreso than posting a "/confirm" in thread would? Why is that?

Why the delayed question, Nacho? The first two questions are mostly rhetorical. What's

really

on your mind?

PEdit: Dang it, now that I want some pressure on Nacho Tony posts that. Harumpf. And I did tell NS to give priority to newbies! xD

[Moonlight]

That's fine. What do you think of my observation there? I've only played one game with Nacho, but he didn't seem to be fond of lengthy questions and explanations (but then again, he might have simply been more busy at the time).

Or my vote on Kenobi, for that matter.

[Moonlight]

You might be right, but we also have to consider Squirrel Girl's willingness to wagon Nacho.

That willingness is among the things I liked from her.

I'm not exactly scared of you(or Nacho, or Squirrel Girl, or...you get the point), but I prefer the people I can be better than.

The amount of games one's played does not necessarily determine the quality of their play.

Post 52 is full of awesome scumhunting and nutty goodness. This is a fact.

Could be, as it could also be that you found something easy to argue about and started poking Rach. I also didn't like her posts, yet I had this funny feeling that arguing about it would have been a waste of time. Time will tell.

Hmm. I'm turning out to be way worse at Mafia than I'd hoped.

That's good in its own way, it's that much easier for you to get better. Once you know where you're at, you know what to work on.

Ok, if you're going to vouch for that post, get him to L-1. I'd like to see his claim, now that I think about it. And if anyone quick hammers, they die as tomorrow's lynch. Sound like a plan?

Why would he claim just by being at L-1 if you eliminate the risk of a hammer?

Off to bed.

[Moonlight]

I'd love some of that tasty, tasty reasoning

It looks like buddying in the making. You're also assuming that Tony's push would actually get Nacho in trouble. A vote does not always come from a desire to lynch, so you are overreacting.

everyone can call me HSS by the way,
Tony PF is very scummy in how he is acting so friendly,
I don't get to post much because I'm not always on the computer

Why is that a scumtell exactly?

Also welcome New players! (I hope that wasn't too friendly)

Someone seems to care about how he is being read. Noted.

At this point in the game, wagoning is fine. We've not gone above two people on a wagon as of yet (as far as I know, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), so neither of those wagons is particular worrying to me. That being said, I'm in agreement with Conman; friendliness =/= scumminess. Generally (at least in my very limited experience) the quieter people are the scummier ones, especially in RVS (then again, Tony kinda plowed right through that >.>). Admittedly, that was mostly with regard to newer players.

So at the moment, I'm more confused about Moon's intentions than anything else. I'm not going to start voting until I have a better lead than "acting so friendly" or this gem:

I agree with you on Squirrel Girl scum. The only vote she placed was on you, and that about the time when I voted you. I think she was probably trying to exploit my scum read on you to get a town lynch in, then blame me for it and lynch me, putting us in LyLo.

That is hardly LyLo. It's also an overly convoluted read and interpretation of a fairly common early-game tactic.

Anyways, I should pay attention to my lecture. I'll be back on later.

*stamps the word Town on Kenobi's forehead* You're meant to be confused. Also, I thought Tony was being obviously silly there. =P

Okay, first off I didn't poke her, i asked her why she was doing what she was doing.

Second off - you liked that I was pushing Nacho, you also agree that Rach's post was...iffy in some manner. But you didn't think there was value in questioning her, and I did...and that was what you had a problem with in post 52?

I did say it's minor. She gave her opinion, you disagreed, but did you think you'd be able to change hers?

I still want that Nacho wagon, especially after Kenobi's comment on my observation.

VOTE: Nacho

[Moonlight]

I am a bit concerned about Tony following my guidance unquestionably so far. I seem to have influenced his reads on both Squirrel and Nacho. Maybe I'm even more transparent than I thought?

I've liked his play, but if I had to find something to support scum-Tony right now, it would be him calling his interaction with Nacho Town vs Town. It's an indirect way of saying he himself is Town, but I could be reading way too much into it. :p

I'm not concerned enough to do something about any of that, especially with HSS already voting Tony and that strange image of a too-early-and-too-obvious-to-be-true Nacho/HSS scum pair in my head.

Things are getting interesting and I thought I'd share my messy thoughts.

[Moonlight]

Being friendly in general is not the same as choosing to be friendly with one specific player in my opinion.

I told you exactly what it looked like to me. You're asking me a loaded question, because I did not say you were trying to change her playstyle; merely her opinion about whether pre-game stuff matters.

Regardless, why is that telling you that I'm scum?

[Moonlight]

Being friendly in general is not the same as choosing to be friendly with one specific player in my opinion.

How did you discern that he wasn't friendly in general? Also, why would you then need to ask why someone found being friendly to be questionable - isn't it all part and parcel of the same tell as buddying?

The post I'm referring to is 55, and I see the possibility of a buddying attempt with Nacho specifically. It is one I feel safe to dismiss for now though.

I asked because I'm interested in seeing how HSS thinks. What I believe is a tell is irrelevant.

My bad, i used opinion in the first part only. Okay, change 'playstyle' to 'opinion' and then answer the question?

You're questioning her attempt to stop the wagon. The said attempt (at least according to her) comes from her belief that pre-game stuff does not matter. By assaulting one, aren't you assaulting the other? Not necessarily a bad thing, but I did not believe it was worth my time.

I think you're faking your reads. I think the reaching on what you perceived me as doing and the applying question to the friendly thing suggests it was more likely manipulative than honest on your part.

And you're so confident about that that you'd sabotage the wagon you also seemed to want on Nacho? That's a shame.

The speed with which you've replied at least tells me you're probably not spending much time constructing your posts, they're natural, which makes you a townread too. Feel free to suspect me, I welcome that. =)

[Moonlight]

I guess so... I really didn't think Nacho had done anything scummy though, so...?

Not really, but my reasoning behind voting him is that he did something that seems strange for him. Take that with a pinch of salt though, as I've only played one game with him.

[Moonlight]

Nice to see some action in the game and more slots participating.

Moon my comments about RVS is though it seems a bit of a lame way to start things out, generally does a good job of getting a feel for people and especially how we break out of it can often give good clues to who is scum. By not having that stage, due to Tony's pre-emptive strike, kinda threw the rhythm of the game off. That being said, I feel from his posts he was doing it from a towny PoV so he goes in my town pile.

D 1 is critical for getting a feel for all the players and doing initial scum hunting. Discussion is good for the town, Having a lynch too soon is not. That benefits scum. We have 2 weeks for a reason we should make sure everyone has participated and we have info before being in a rush to lynch.

PEDIT how would you know Nacho? You are fairly new to the site, Moon?

Indeed, he was the IC in my first completed game here. This would be my 4th game on the site overall, but I used to play on another site about a year ago. A lot of games, but the days were 48 hours long and I've found that my play is different here for some reason.

Anyway, back to the RVS topic: I consider it a "necessary evil". Yes, it works, but everyone wants it to end ASAP so that the real game can start. Tony's push with a reachy case stopped the RVS from happening altogether. And judging by Squirrel's vote on me, we're well into the real game.

[Moonlight]

A wagon just for me? You shouldn't have. =P

Which parts exactly feel less than genuine? I've been told I am very transparent as Town, so this is quite the surprise.

[Moonlight]

I also find it strange that you went from voting SG to agreeing with her. Did she post something that made you doubt your read, or is your read on me simply stronger?

[Moonlight]

At least I'm glad I'm not completely crazy to imagine a Nacho/HSS pair scenario where HSS attacks the accuser of his buddy. =P

[Moonlight]

Suit yourself. I'm just being honest, it's what I've been told.

[Moonlight]

Wagoning you is like wagoning The Dude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

So I'm lying on my comfy bed, cold coffee on the nightstand, personal vaporizer in hand... and you post this. I had a coughy fit and a laugh and my sheet is no longer completely white. It would have only been more fitting if I was on something that could get me high. xD

@Rach - you felt less like you were trying to stop/slow a wagon and more like you were implying it was impossible to read Nacho this early and so we shouldn't even bother. That's my issue with it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I couldn't read Nacho in my one game with him until it was over. Doesn't mean I won't try to of course.

Moon
I hope you get to play more games with Nacho he is awesome ♥ And yes that questioning technique is common.

ATM I have a light town read on Nacho but I do not trust him completely at this point. I am going to watch him most closely to see if I see the usual things I look for when he is scum Nacho.

I hope so too. And I totally agree with him being awesome to have as Town. I don't think we'd have won that game if not for him. =X

Sooo my observation about him asking -mostly- rhetorical questions is probably nothing?

Moon: Elaborate on your pressure on nacho.

It was kind of wishful thinking. I've never seen Nacho under pressure and facing the threat of a lynch. I wanted to see what I'd get from him, but that dream will have to remain a dream it seems.

137 is beautiful. A full reads list with trains of thought I can completely understand. I'm even annoyed at myself for not putting as much work in. >_< I agree with most of what I see, except for Squirrel and Tony.

Squirrel, Kenobi and you (even before this post and even more so now) are my townreads. Rach, Nacho and BC are null and the only one that caught my attention was HSS.

I haven't mentioned Tony. This one's a toughie, because I was townreading him until the moment I realized he hasn't questioned me once. I didn't (and still don't) know what to make of that. I was hoping him and HSS would interact more, but nope.

I was contemplating a Tony vote now that the Nacho wagon doesn't get the love it deserved, but a vote on HSS would be more telling in my opinion (and feel free to ask me about that).

UNVOTE: Nacho
VOTE: HSS

[Moonlight]

It's worth noting that Tony was paying attention to one of the games I was in recently (despite not taking part himself). So perhaps his lack of questioning me comes from him seeing something I've said as a tell? I'm not self-aware enough to guess what that would be, especially this early.

I'm off for the night, but not before saying that I stand corrected regarding Squirrel's questioning. I don't get much of a read of alignment on Rach, but I get a better look at how she thinks, which helps.

[Moonlight]

Oh dear. That is a very, very ambiguous statement, Tony.

On one hand, it's pro-Town in the sense that yes, any lynch (even a mislynch) can help Town by taking a closer look at the votes and the flip.

On the other hand, saying that you're "fine" by lynching the one player whose alignment you should know as Town is all sorts of bad.

But what confuses me more is your timing. This is the kind of thing that I might say as scum to guilt-trip the Town if I get very cornered. There is a little pressure on you, but not nearly enough to warrant this.

You continue to baffle me. =/

[Moonlight]

Tony's post confuses me probably less than it should.

Now that town isn't sure about my alignment,

Are you distancing yourself from Town here or am I reading too much into something again?

I'm less likely to get the NK.

Fear of a NK hints at a power role, but I'll go into WIFOM territory if I ask myself whether you'd fake it as VT or scum.

Moonlight's definitely gotten some good information out of people, and my gut feeling at the moment is that he's town.

SG feels town, too. At the moment, I'm mostly going off of gut, because there really isn't too much out there yet.

Watching our interaction should have given you a bit to analyze, but I guess it might be too early.

Speaking of analysis, I don't know what to make of Rach's helpfulness and playing as an unofficial second IC but it's probably non-indicative of alignment. Inexperienced newbies will appreciate it though and that can't be bad, especially without Nacho around.

[Moonlight]

Are you

sure

you're not scumreading me just out of disliking my viewpoint on your questioning of Rach? Which conclusion are you referring to?

[Moonlight]

*grins* Lookie here, lookie here. What a post by HSS.

@Squirrel: I stated what I expect everyone to already know from reading that. Which begs the question "Why did you state it then?". I want Tony to answer that for me instead. I am townreading him after that post, when I should have been just confused.

[Moonlight]

Ah, the melody. HSS is hitting all the notes. *licks his lips* That moment when you just know that your meal is there, served on a silver platter.

We're having scum today.

[Moonlight]

Considering that I'm going to bed now, it'll have to wait for breakfast. Help yourself in the meantime, but do tell me what you think of the fact that I didn't know what to make of you until 159.

Ciao for now.

[Moonlight]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.
I wasn't really a fan of your vote on Kenobi, no.

A fair point. I've seen you try out different stuff in different games, after all.

Were you not a fan of my vote because you disagree, or because you think there was scum motivation behind it? If it's the latter, why are you not voting?

Better yet, why would I claim when claiming is generally a last result and there's absolutely no reason for me to reach that point in the first place?

Another fair point, but I wonder what prompts you to comment on that when it's a rather insignificant observation. As you said, you're not going to reach that point any time soon.

I am such a n00b. That's what I think.

You, sir, are good.

The hunt begins with my next post.

[Moonlight]

potatoes are the best every body

This is an empty post. He is not feeling motivated to do something meaningful.

Situation in the thread at the time: 2 votes on Nacho by Squirrel and Tony. Plenty of general questioning from Squirrel, Tony tries topressure Nacho, Nacho questions Tony, conman observes while showing some of his early thoughts, Rach takes her stance.

Verdict: If HSS is scum, the situation is not threatening to HSS or his buddy.

VOTE: Tony PF

everyone can call me HSS by the way,
Tony PF is very scummy in how he is acting so friendly,
I don't get to post much because I'm not always on the computer

He is voting Tony and calls him scummy. His read is based on a questionable trait. He blames an external factor for his inactivity.

Situation in the thread at the time: Tony votes for HSS, questions Squirrel, withdraws from Nacho, goes after Squirrel, still wants pressure on Nacho, unvotes Squirrel. Squirrel questions Tony and Nacho, shares her thoughts. Kenobi blames external factor for inactivity and defends Nacho, discourages jumping to early conclusions, asks for my reasoning behind my vote while maintaining his cool. I vote Kenobi, express dislike for Rach's posts, show an interest in Nacho, ask Tony for his comments, express a liking to most of what Squirrel does while also commenting on Tony. BC votes Squirrel, playfully questions Tony and tries to pressure Squirrel.

Verdict: If scum, HSS perceives Tony as the easiest target or the biggest threat to him and his buddy.

I think you guys are probably right about Tony PF being townie,
but Moonlight is defending herself with random arguements
UNVOTE: Tony PF
VOTE: Moonlight

I wasnt around for the last day of stuff so ive had to catch up on what everyone is talking about
potatoes are still the best, Ok

Switches his read on Tony from scum to Town without explaining why, says I defend myself, doesn't explain why he thinks that means I'm scum, votes, again blames external factor for inactivity.

Situation in the thread at the time: conman is open about his thoughts, provides full reads with reasoning, suspects HSS, questions Rach, agrees with me on Tony, wants a prod for Nacho, wants Tony to explain himself. Kenobi supports wagoning and is confused at my play, suspects HSS while sharing his reads. Squirrel votes me, questions me and provides her reasoning, either dislikes or doesn't know what to make of my townread on her, continues questioning Rach, also questions Tony and Kenobi, still thinks I'm scum. I show broad focus while townreading Kenobi, question my read on Tony while suspecting an HSS/Nacho pair, question Squirrel's vote on me, form a townread on her, support Tony's push despite my doubts on him, question DC's vote, question his Squirrel read, reaffirm my HSS/Nacho suspicion, lack a reaction to my wagon, vote HSS after commenting on conman's reads, doubt... my doubts on Tony while approving Squirrel's questioning of Rach, get confused at Tony's play, show I again townread Tony while questioning him and Kenobi, question Squirrel's reasoning. Tony wants to pressure Nacho to a claim, makes an ambiguous statement, looks on the bright side of him being suspect, shows humility. Rach explains her stance and provides IC-like info, expresses caution about quickwagoning, disagrees with Tony's case while sharing her read on Nacho, provides further explanation for Squirrel, questions Tony and responds to conman, is being IC-helpful while wanting to hear from Nacho.

Verdict: If scum, HSS considered me the easiest target or the biggest threat to him or his buddy.

[Moonlight]

This rustles my jimmies; the first link is fine, it's an actual quote from Nacho. The next two? Not so much.
"Better yet, why would I claim when claiming is generally a last result and there's absolutely no reason for me to reach that point in the first place?" never appears anywhere in 99, and Rachmarie never says anything about being a noob. If this is meant to be some kind of humour, I don't see it.

So. Explanation. Please.

I have no clue what happened there. D:

The first two quotes are from Nacho, the third one is from Tony. Darn it.

Also, my analysis reads as "information over analysis" because, well, it is. I wanted to gather all the info in one post so I have something that will quickly guide me to something specific I'll want to re-examine later.

Probably reads wally, but I can work with it.

I believe that HSS probably saw Tony and me as easy targets. I don't think I can draw conclusions to who his buddy could be, not to mention the WIFOM involved.

I'm still very,

very

happy about my vote.

[Moonlight]

I will say though: because of the verdict of the first quote, HSS and Nacho are an unlikely pair. >_>

[Moonlight]

I'm just mentioning I don't want HSS (or anyone for that matter) lynched too soon. If I squint my eyes really hard I

can

see a plausible newbtown scenario there, but I don't find it as likely as newbscum. The best way to figure that out is to get him pressured anyway.

[Moonlight]

Squirrel, why are you misrepping me? =/ There's nothing in my post that says that I believed he voted without catching up. That is a misconception that only Kenobi's post shows.

If anything, I believe that his catching up is just an excuse and he is well aware of what is going on. It doesn't make sense for me to believe he is blindly casting his votes.

[Moonlight]

Yes, but unless I've read your post completely wrong (and do correct me), you've linked Kenobi's misconception with my logic behind why I believe HSS is scum. Why is that?

[Moonlight]

I think we have a problem. =/

I want Squirrel to answer this question as honestly as possible: do you first read what I say and then decide if it's more probably to come from Town or scum, or have you decided I'm scum and you're only looking at how it makes sense as scum to post it?

[Moonlight]

No. I am asking because I've become confident in my townread on her.

[Moonlight]

BC, if you're still here, I am struggling to see the Town motivation behind your question in 198. If you are scumreading me, why do you care about my read on Squirrel? Why would anything I say to that question matter provided that it might be complete bullshit?

[Moonlight]

If I think you're scum, your 'reads' are incredibly important to me for future reference, especially for finding your partner, assuming you are scum.

But you can't possibly know the way in which I will fabricate a read. You cannot know if I will townread or scumread a partner and the reasoning I'll use. You would have to understand my way of thinking so well and get so deeply into my head that you'd be unable to miss my alignment in the first place.

[Moonlight]

On the contrary, I am for that. Problem is, you're not asking the right ones. What do you understand about me? If I flipped scum right here and now, what would my townread on Squirrel tell you? It would tell you squat, that's what. So why aren't you doing something about it? Why

aren't

you trying to get into my head if you are scumreading me and if you believe my reads will lead you to my partner?

[Moonlight]

I see a lot of outloud thinking, piecing together a puzzle, but I'm not convinced it's town.

Bingo. That's an excellent analogy and it shows me you're trying to understand me. It matters to me that you've said that.

I've had a rather recent realization. The reason I could never enjoy being scum is because I couldn't treat that like a puzzle. I admit that probably sounds stupid because it is a puzzle too, just in different ways that I'm not very used to.

@Rach, no love for the rest of us, just for Nacho? D: What do you think of what's been going on in the thread recently? Anything?

[Moonlight]

But I don't wannaaaaa.

*sigh* Fiiine.

Top spot is a tough choice between Tony and Squirrel. This is my "People I won't want to vote for unless I see something very compelling that contradicts my read" tier. They belong here for the same reason: they're both scumhunting and they both feel genuine when they switch (Tony's short-lived jump on conman was especially remarkable, Squirrel's impressed me despite her scumread on me by how openly she expresses her mind, if she's scum she's got nerves of fucking titanium).

Not far behind follow Kenobi and conman. What should I call this... the "People I need to see a decently strong case against to consider a vote for" list. I liked Kenobi's reaction to my vote, and the misquote paranoia fits the "profile" that's been forming in my head. I'm not entirely sure why I'm not placing him in the tier above to be honest, probably because of my initial suspicion about him buddying Nacho. Meh, it'll go away completely sooner or later. conman shared his reads in detail and I loved that, it was a very pro-Town move. He's not in the top list because if I really try, I can see him doing that as scum that wants to appear pro-Town, but I don't believe this to be the case.

Nacho would be null, but my scumread on HSS along my belief that those two are not scum together places him in null-Town for now.

I don't know how to read Rach and BC yet. I can see their plays making sense for either alignment so far.

HSS I've already talked about.

I'll quickly make a "confidence scale":

10.
9. Tony~Squirrel
8. Kenobi~conman
7.
6. Nacho
5. Rach~BC
4.
3. HSS
2.
1.
0.

10 = If you ever lynch this, I will find where you live and I will mix up your socks so you'll never find ones that match.
0 = I will not sleep peacefully until I know we'll be lynching you ASAP.
1 to 9 is everything in-between.

[Moonlight]

You cannot answer that sort of question honestly, because no one wants to admit to clouded judgement, and if your judgement is truly clouded then you wouldn't be able to tell anyway. I believe my issue with you rose out of our interactions as a result of them. I don't think I ever was like 'I hate his avatar - gonna call him scum no matter whats!" or anything like that. Now that I have a scum read on you am I more likely to consider things you do in a scummy light first and foremost? Sure - but that happens with everyone for both town and scum reads. Will I try not to let that happen? Also sure. Do I know whether it has or hasn't happened, and if so where? No and no.

I don't really see the value of the question either. It's like asking me my favorite debate style - it's a stock answer with no connection to my alignment.

You call that a stock answer? o_o I would guess that most people I know wouldn't be as self-aware as you are being in your answer.

The value of the question is in me trying to understand you better.

I understand where you're coming from regarding HSS and I considered that in 191, but I haven't changed my mind. I don't want him lynched right here right now, but so far he's made it challenging for me to consider him Town. He's got plenty of time to make me change my mind.

[Moonlight]

You've got 4 votes and I've unvoted. I'm very displeased with your lack of effort.

VOTE: HSS

That's a hammer. Bye-bye, scum.

[Moonlight]

She is sticking to her guns and I don't believe I'll be easy to lynch. I believe that if she was scum, she'd either look for an excuse and change her mind or slowly work on changing other people's minds. She's not doing the first one and if she is doing the second one then it's too subtle for me to pick up on it. >_>

It takes nerve to remain on a wagon that is unlikely to go anywhere.

As for the hammer, I don't regret it. HSS, be a good sport, you weren't Town, were you?

[Moonlight]

Darn it conman, they were playing along so nicely! D:

It was worth a shot. =P

[Moonlight]

It takes nerve to remain on a wagon that is unlikely to go anywhere.

I disagree with that, I'm pretty sure lots of people consider that a basic scum strategy.

I understand it coming from scum when the Town looks likely to mislynch without their vote. This doesn't seem to apply here, because I don't see my wagon going very far and you're defending HSS, who has the only other wagon. You'd be playing a waiting game if you did this as scum and somehow I don't see you being okay with that.

You playing along supports my read on you anyway (props to Tony and Nacho too).

Off for the night, I hope HSS manages to do something more interesting than getting my gender wrong all the time. xD

PEdit: @Yes, conman.

[Moonlight]

Derp, I read that as "Were you hoping to gain something from that reaction test". Sleepy...

I wanted to see if he'd admit he's scum if he believed he was a goner.

[Moonlight]

Ah, the melody. HSS is hitting all the notes. *licks his lips* That moment when you just know that your meal is there, served on a silver platter.

We're having scum today.

I don't she realised that at the time he said this, that two people were voting for her and only one voting for me
How exactly is that meant to be "having scum"

Because I doubted my wagon would develop in any significant way. Aside from Squirrel, BC and you, no one seemed to want to put me under more pressure. I was aware of the vote count.

Is this really all you have to say? The only things I know about you so far is that you're townreading Tony (what made you change your mind?), scumreading me, and I have no clue what you think of anyone else.

That Moonlight play was either a miscalculation, or crazy risky, and it just doesn't sit right with me. I'm currently working on an assignment, so I'll hopefully be able to be back on later tonight to post some actual content.

I knew what I was doing and the only risk I can think of is that if he raged as Town who thought he got lynched, there's a chance he would have outed his role. It was one I was willing to take.

You're really picking up on things I consider trivial, like the misquote post (I call that one trivial because part of it looked like I was replying to myself, which made it obviously accidental). Am I right in assuming you're scumreading me based on gut and are looking for a connection that justifies it?

[Moonlight]

Yeah...I totally was on top of that.

I still don't like or trust you, and the amount of crazy buddying you're throwing my way is just freaking me out more. It's like I'm calling you scum and you keep laughing and being all 'SG is the bestest town!' It doesn't make sense.

That is what makes you useful to me. You think completely differently than I do. If I put aside your scumreading of me and the bias that comes from that, I have zero reason to believe you're scum at this point.

[Moonlight]

This one is probably going to throw you for another loop.

If Squirrel answered my question in 197 in a way that showed she wouldn't change her mind no matter what I post, I would have put some serious thought into self-voting just to rid someone I consider a scumhunter of a bad target so they can properly scumhunt again. I don't know if I'd have gone through with that, but that is how scarily confident I am in my read of Tony and her and I admit it is illogical for me to be that confident on D1. It is what it is.

[Moonlight]

Nah, come to think of it I would have probably just confused her even more, she's getting confused as it is. But I would still thought about doing that.

[Moonlight]

*thinks about it even more* Yeah, horrible idea. I'd be voting for the one person I know to be Town, risking my own lynch for someone that if I'm wrong about would abuse the situation to make herself look Town. I've had bad ideas, but that one is especially bad. But I'm just showing how my mind works. =P

[Moonlight]

In my opinion that was a pretty bad play from moon.

I'm in the same mind set as Kenobi, we don't have enough activity from 3 of our players, one of which is a legit medicinal excuse, so there are still too many variables not at play.

Assuming that HSS is among those three, how was my play bad since a reaction from HSS would be indicative of alignment?

[Moonlight]

Food for thought for everyone, but mostly meant for those who think HSS is Town:

I don't want him lynched right here right now, but so far he's made it challenging for me to consider him Town. He's got plenty of time to make me change my mind.

I dont have much time to go on my computer as i already have mentioned, and now everyone seems to think im scum because of one thing that Moonlight said about me.
it's almost like she's trying to kill me off because she's taking the attention far away from herself

definitely still voting on Moonlight

After looking at this, can you blame me for thinking that this guy is panicking?

It could be survival instinct, no one wants to die. But to go as far as saying I'm trying to kill him when I've explicitly stated I wanted no such thing any time soon and that I'm trying to deflect attention away from myself? He's making it so difficult to imagine him flipping Town.

[Moonlight]

Perhaps he wasn't reading the thread during the 50 minutes that the charade was on.

That aside, I like what I got from it. Tony, Squirrel and Nacho all reacted to it and it's defininitely something I might want to look back at later on.

[Moonlight]

Let's see...

Nacho's and Tony's reactions were expected. I knew Tony was aware of what I was doing with 277. Remember that "confidence scale" I used? He's getting close to a 10. Not just for that, mind you. He reads between the lines and so do I.

Nacho's response was textbook. I don't know if he genuinely believed it was a hammer. If I later on have some reason to believe that Nacho is scum, his response makes me think that HSS isn't his buddy.

Same for Squirrel, but she admitted she believed it. And I ask myself: why? As scum, why wouldn't she deny the towncred of having played along? My train of thought only makes sense if we call my play pro-Town, of course, but I think it's fair to call it that. Anyway, it's same as Nacho: if she is scum, HSS would have been a mislynch. Also makes sense considering her defense of him.

[Moonlight]

^ I meant "why would she deny the towncred" there. >_> I hope that makes sense now.

[Moonlight]

Hmm, things are getting a tad too quiet. It's been 37 hours since the last vote. I'm fine with where mine is and I can't really do much until HSS decides to post.

Here's hoping to wake up in a few hours and see some new content.

[Moonlight]

I find his stance reasonable there and think you're intentionaly downplaying how you did express scum on him. You don't need to post something like 219 to clarify that you don't want him lynched right here and now if you haven't expressed thoughts that suggest maybe you want him lynched right here and now - to then act like he's crazy for thinking that doesn't then make sense.

219 repeated what I had previously said in 191. I posted 191 as a reaction to Tony's vote. I wanted his wagon to gain traction, but not enough for anyone to want him lynched too soon. I kind of regret that to be honest, because it seems that my posts stopped the wagon altogether. =/

Regardless, let's suppose it's okay for him to assume I want him dead ASAP. How does it make sense for him to believe that my play is deflecting attention from myself? If this is me trying to lay low, boy do I suck at this game. xD

[Moonlight]

Because the Town side of what he's doing involves him being a Townie who only cares for his own survival. If I had to guess, he wouldn't be scumreading me if I was townreading him and I was after someone else instead. The jump from Tony to me felt very survivalistic.

His continued silence makes me uneasy. I've been looking forward to seeing his next posts because what he does at this point will either strengthen my read or change it.

[Moonlight]

What also ties in to the above is how he changed his read on Tony; because Tony wasn't focusing on him at the time.

[Moonlight]

*expanding on the thought*

The Tony read change is what's making the difference between newbscum and newbtown in my opinion. If he had kept scumreading Tony but decided his scumread on me is stronger, I'd have probably reached the same conclusion as you, Squirrel. If scum, he *knows* that Tony is Town, and wants him on his side as he counter-attacks me.

[Moonlight]

I'm well aware. I lied, hoping HSS would think he's dead anyway and confess. =P

[Moonlight]

We've almost spent half of D1 and almost half of us aren't voting. I'm not very pleased about that.

To Nacho, Rach, Kenobi and conman: do something new. A vote would be a simple solution, but it doesn't have to be that if you want to keep it and you can find some other way. Just make something happen, please? Pretty please with sugar on top?

[Moonlight]

And set myself up for disappointment? Naaah. At least those I know those I mentioned are capable of good posts.

[Moonlight]

One "those" too many up there, sorry. You know what I mean. >_>

Besides, despite not saying or doing much of anything else, HSS has at least voted. It's something, and just about the only thing I needn't doubt, even if it comes with reasoning that makes me sigh.

[Moonlight]

Regrading HSS, if what I have said already doesn't convince you, I've got nothing new and I don't see how repeating myself can help. =/

As for Rach, I can't read her. She says the right things and... that's it. I'd be lying if I said I've tried my best though (I can go into detail as to why I have trouble reading her if you want me to) and I'm going to take care of that matter. In the meantime, assume I have no solid read on her.

[Moonlight]

Moonlight, please answer my question directed at everyone thx. Same with you Squirrel Girl!

When we're not in RVS, my vote answers that question. =P

I 'm dissapointed that no one had voted differently while i was away for a whole day and night

Do something about it.

Looked though it, nothing particularly scummy. Only 17 posts though.

But you're having trouble finding something particularly towny and I can guess why. Are you also getting a Town vibe from 144? I spent minutes reading that one trying to pinpoint what caused it.

If we had to lynch now, who would everyone like to see lynched?

I would like to see Moonlight lynched. Even if I'm wrong (And I really Hope I'm not) at least everyone would know that most of us were being mislead by who ever started the case. then we'll have a better idea about who is probably scum.

Sweet mother of scum. Are you... are you actually saying that when I flip Town you're going to go after Squirrel?!

LYNCH THIS NAO.

[Moonlight]

He just implied that if I flip Town, he has been mislead, right?

I didn't misunderstand, did I? Can someone correct me please if I have misunderstood?

[Moonlight]

Also,

"whoever started the case" = not his buddy.

Squirrel is crystal clear if HSS flips scum. Not that I'd have many doubts anyway.

[Moonlight]

I won't be happy until this guy either gets lynched or takes responsibility for his own damn vote without implying he can blame someone else for it tomorrow!

[Moonlight]

I'm still in disbelief. This is almost too obvious to be true, it's as if someone is following a guide of things to look for as scumtells but he is actually doing those things. D:

[Moonlight]

I am going to at least try to treat him as a possible Townie, just for this post. Mostly out of disbelief from a "too good to be true" mentality.

@Bipolar: I could give more of my thought about some people if they could talk a bit more(Rachmarie, Kenobi) about what is going on in the game at the time. But, i will try to post more about people who are talking when it is relevant at the time

I find it extremely convenient that whenever you appear to be around, it is no longer relevant to provide reads on anyone.

Give them regardless, even if they're no longer relevant. Show me in some way that there is a chance you might be Town.

And talk to me directly for a change. No more "Moonlight is doing this and that". Enough. Address me, talk to me.

I 'm dissapointed that no one had voted differently while i was away for a whole day and night

Why so concerned about the votes staying the same?

I would like to see Moonlight lynched. Even if I'm wrong (And I really Hope I'm not) at least everyone would know that most of us were being mislead by who ever started the case. then we'll have a better idea about who is probably scum.

Just for this post I will pretend that the whole "If he flips Town, whoops, totally not my fault!" vibe isn't there: do you have a better reason to scumread me other than the horrible reasoning you provided way back? Please say yes.

[Moonlight]

I have a weakish town read on SG, mainly because of her pushing on me and paranoia of me.

Funny how that works: I've been having some trouble reading you and I'm not sure why, but the post of yours that made me pause for a while was 144. The vibe it gave me is that from a Town perspective, you disliked but at the same time understood Squirrel's point of view. It felt like a Town vs Town kind of thing and I'm not confident in reading you but hey, it's a start.

Which presents a whole new problem for me; other than HSS, I've got diddly squat on a proper scumread on anyone else. Nacho is unlikely if HSS is scum, that's good. If I were to trust all my reads of any strength, I'm looking at BC purely through PoE and I hate that. >_> There was that question about how I'm reading Squirrel that bugged me (it would make sense for scum-BC to determine whether Squirrel is a good mislynch target) and his current vote could be a result of realizing his buddy is toast.

That's just one side of the coin though and the other one looks legit too. =/ My read on him has remained nullest of null.

Pedit: He... he's not scum, Nacho? D: Errr... that was unexpected to say the least. I'm definitely looking forward to reading that.

[Moonlight]

Waiiiit a minute...

Perhaps he wasn't reading the thread during the 50 minutes that the charade was on.

That aside, I like what I got from it. Tony, Squirrel and Nacho all reacted to it and it's defininitely something I might want to look back at later on.

What kind of read do you think their retraction gives, Moonlight?

Oh boy, I'm questioning my read on ML, I'd throw him down near null for me now. HSS though...

HSS: I know you can't be on too often, but do you have any extended reads or thoughts? I'm seeing so very little from you even when you do post.

I didn't notice Moonlight's 'lock' before. How in any world did you think that was lock?! There weren't even any votes after the previous vote count before you voted...

In 264 you seemed aware of my play. What gives? o_o Could... could 284 have been distancing from HSS?

*paranoid mode activates*

[Moonlight]

Meh, I'm going to sleep on it now but I want a sanity check on my last post. Either I'm seeing things or something weird is going on.

[Moonlight]

I'll have to admit, HSS is still pretty scummy to me, but Moonlight, your behaviour, and the pandering that Tony's giving you is really, reaaaaally pushing me to thinking that you're a scumteam.

I really didn't want to have to do this, but I guess I have no choice.

Much of my confidence behind Tony's towniness comes from the way he... phrased something. You know what a breadcrumb is, right? I've spotted an unusual one from him that would be a complete coincidence if it came from scum. And I don't believe in coincidence.

This is two Townies working together. Learn the difference. -_-

[Moonlight]

And no one has fucking commented on what I said about BC. Thanks, guys.

[Moonlight]

No, wait, my bad.

I don't even understand your last post and what it means for your current stance, if any. Basically you cited off a few town names and then acted chagrined that it didn't work easily with your scum theories. That just sounds like maybe you need to stop buddy hunting before a flip, or that the reason things don't gel is because base conclusions are wrong.

Stop thinking what my post fucking means.

Stop.

Take a look at 264 and what it refers to. Then take a look at 284. Then think. Think hard. And post. Yeah? Yeah, good.

[Moonlight]

Also,

HSS has pointed out Moonlight's attempt to mislead people.

That's not what he fucking said.

I would like to see Moonlight lynched. Even if I'm wrong (And I really Hope I'm not) at least everyone would know that most of us were being mislead by who ever started the case. then we'll have a better idea about who is probably scum.

He is saying here that when I flip Town, his attention will be on whoever started the case on me.

AKA Squirrel, who is continuing to tunnel me for bullshit reasons.

You wanted me to not be like The Dude? Well, here you go.

I can't believe I woke up to see this bullshit.

If I get derphammered, my best guess would be HSS-BC for the scumteam. And I

will

come back to this post in postgame and I

will

tell you "I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO".

Fucking hell.

[Moonlight]

I would have expected someone like Kenobi, who has played with Nacho before, to use his brain.

I

did

become suspicious of Tony when he didn't doubt me, if you remember. There is a fucking reason I stopped doubting.

[Moonlight]

I still cannot believe I am at L-1 with the way I've been playing in this game.

[Moonlight]

Oh wait, L-2, still.

[Moonlight]

I had completely forgotten BC had taken his vote off me, now my rant should make sense. >_>

[Moonlight]

I'm so fucking disappointed in Squirrel. She is a lot like me. I can tell how she feels in each and every one of her posts. How the FUCK has she been misreading me so badly in this game? =/

[Moonlight]

But most of all, I guess I'm disappointed in myself. How the fuck do I have 3 votes on me? HOW?!

[Moonlight]

One more person call me scum. I fucking dare you. You have robbed me of the one thing I took pride in whenever I'm Town; being obvious.

BRING IT.

[Moonlight]

@Kenobi: No shit Sherlock, HSS is on my wagon and so is BC, who I have posted something about that you continue to ignore. -_-

Tell me if what I have observed is just me being crazy or something legit, please?

@Tony: I doubt everyone and everything unless given a reason not to, it's kind of vice versa for me. And I do believe you're Town in this game.

I mentioned how HSS could have been Town before his last outrageous post; he

could

have been a Townie whose mind is simplistic enough to think "HERPADERP SOMEONE IS VOTING ME, I'M TOWN, SO HE MUST BE SCUM". His recent post shows a disgusting, almost offensive approach to his vote and how he is not responsible for it. I CANNOT see that coming from Town and I don't know what Nacho sees that I don't.

[Moonlight]

*sigh* I hate getting angry, but the silver lining is that I see a major difference between Town-me and scum-me when it comes to anger. That helps me improve my scum game.

Also, I keep forgetting for some reason that BC is no longer on my wagon. My point still stands though.

And yeah, input from conman would be others. I also want to hear from Squirrel, even if she still thinks I'm scum.

[Moonlight]

EBWOP: input from conman would be nice.

(How did I type "others" there? O_o I was thinking "hmm, I want to hear from others too".)

[Moonlight]

You have not answered how you went from being aware of my play in 264 to amnesia in 284.

Am I going crazy?

[Moonlight]

My point had nothing to do with BC's vote? What the fuck is going on? My posts read fine to me. Why am I being so misunderstood all of a sudden?!

[Moonlight]

Hmm, let me try quoting those posts again. I will do exactly the same thing and hope for a different result. Apparently I AM INSANE.

Perhaps he wasn't reading the thread during the 50 minutes that the charade was on.

That aside, I like what I got from it. Tony, Squirrel and Nacho all reacted to it and it's defininitely something I might want to look back at later on.

What kind of read do you think their retraction gives, Moonlight?

I didn't notice Moonlight's 'lock' before. How in any world did you think that was lock?! There weren't even any votes after the previous vote count before you voted...

In 264, BC asks me about the reactions I got from my play.

In 284, he is acting as if he noticed it for the very first time.

So he is lying.

Can. Someone. Tell. Me. Why. This. Is. Being. Ignored?

[Moonlight]

Good, at least we might be insane together then. There's some comfort in that.

I'm still looking forward to hearing from Nacho. If he manages to convince me HSS can be Town (which I can't even imagine, but "never say never" I guess...), I'm going after BC.

I know first-hand that when I'm scum, I can forget things that happen in the thread, even things I have said.

Never

as Town. What applies to me doesn't have to apply to anyone else, but my read on BC was null before that and I was starting to consider him through PoE alone.

If anyone else has any thoughts to add to this madness, by all means.

[Moonlight]

Angry scum-me guilt-trips you into not voting him while showing a more passive-aggressive attitude.

Angry Town-me wants to rip your head off and shit down your neck as he makes a phonecall to nuke your city of birth from orbit.

That's the difference. >_>

[Moonlight]

@conman: Thoughts on BC-scum and his amnesia?

[Moonlight]

I'm off to bed, but not before saying that if anyone wants to read me based on my meta, I keep my wiki updated and you can find my games there.

Or just use the good ol' search button.

[Moonlight]

Not being ignored, I just don't have time today and I wasn't sure what you were on about. I asked you the question in 264 because you claimed to be running a gambit and I wanted to know what you were getting from it, I had missed the actual gambit

... Darn, that answer fits. You were drunk at the time too, so it makes sense for you to not notice it right away.

if HSS turned up scum, how would it make sense for me to be scum, I was one of the first to point out his scuminess.

There's this thing called distancing, you know.

I did consider an HSS/Tony team when HSS' vote was on Tony, I just left that out of my analysis of HSS' play. Scum buddies tend to scumread each other quite easily.

Anyone else think these are spot-on the questions we're waiting for answers to before we lynch HSS? Or is there more?

These are great questions, but I'd like to hear more from HSS himself actually.

@HSS: Any thoughts as to why Nacho is townreading you? Or anything else that's been going on?

[Moonlight]

Mhm, that's L-1 indeed.

I want Nacho to chime in, so please no quickhammering.

[Moonlight]

He shouldn't claim before someone declares intent.

... Which is a matter of time from the look of things, unless HSS posts something good or Nacho gives a convincing argument for him being Town.

[Moonlight]

Nothing I haven't noticed or mentioned already around the time of the gambit hammer thing. If you want me to restate that stuff I could. i'd suppose I'd toss in how easily everyone is voting for him so I think it's just lynchbait stuff - I'd certainly be willing to also repeat my issues and thoughts about you vs. HSS as regards that lynch, and why one is happening and the other isn't with total disregard to expected output from the two of you. I'd just probably get ignored again though.

I have already considered HSS as lynchbait and provided my reasoning why I'm leaning heavily towards newbscum instead of newbtown.

I don't believe a Townie would have such an incredibly selfish outlook. He preemptively laid the blame on "whoever started the case on me" in case I flip Town. Who the fuck does that as Town?

(A voice in my head says: "A bad player. And HSS might be one. You might want to take it slo-")

Quiet, you!

Anyway, yeah, I don't think it's impossible for him to flip Town, it's just hard to believe.

Squirrel, I cannot speak for anyone else but I'm not ignoring you at all. We don't agree, but that's why I'm listening. You provide a different perspective and I NEED that.

I still don't know what to make of Rach. All I can tell is that she has been townreading you since 144, if not before that. I cannot tell if this comes from her knowing your alignment or reading you correctly, since I have been townreading you myself this whole time. >_>

(@Rach: If I'm wrong about this, please correct me.)

[Moonlight]

I assume that your lack of voting means you're lacking scumreads and you're trying to narrow it down through PoE.

What are your thoughts on lynchbait-HSS versus scum-HSS?

[Moonlight]

A thought that makes me worry is that no one but Squirrel is defending HSS. So if he is scum, what is his buddy doing? Are they on the wagon, or have they stayed neutral?

Or he's just Town and Squirrel's right. >_<

I don't think an HSS-Squirrel team makes sense. HSS wouldn't refer to her as "whoever". If he was good enough to fake that, he wouldn't be in this position to begin with.

I won't be happy if D1 ends before there's a little more content from HSS and Nacho.

[Moonlight]

I don't think HSS is scum.

@Nacho: And why is that?most people think I'm scum?
please explain next time you are on

I like it how people have scumread people who aren't just me while I haven't been on.

I'm just accepting that i'm too scummy whatever I do, and that everyone is probably lynch me anyway.

PS: can't wait to see how people are going to turn this into a "declaration of being mafia" or whatever

I was about to reply to HSS but conman said everything I wanted to say and more.

What doesn't make sense is the timing of his giving up. The time between 313 and 397 was time he could have spent contributing and he just... didn't. Most of that time his wagon wasn't even in the lead, so why would he have already given up?

If that guy is Town, I'm really sorry, I've tried to understand him but I can't. =/

[Moonlight]

I'll post my reads again, even though they haven't changed much:

Tony: Thinks a lot like me. I often get paranoid by how much we agree and how little he doubts me, but I keep coming up empty when trying to find scum motivation in his own pushes.

Squirrel: She has brought attention to Rach and me. She is scumhunting and even though we don't agree, I trust her enough to be more cautious about lynching HSS.

conman: ... If this guy is scum, holy shit he's good. I love his posts.

Kenobi: I was already townreading him before his vote on me for a reaction and that one only makes him look better.

BC, Rach and Nacho: No. Fucking. Clue.

HSS: Can't decide if scum or just lazy. =/

The pairs that interest me from those four above are: HSS/BC and Rach/Nacho.

BC's switch from me to HSS felt weird, but it's probably because I've read too much into him realizing my play late. Still can't shake the impression though.

If Rach is scum, her asking Nacho to post because she wants to get a better read on him could be distancing when coupled with her fearing a derphammer on his wagon.

To sum up: If there's scum in Tony, Squirrel, conman and Kenobi, I've been fooled big time. =/

[Moonlight]

Damn it, the thought of Rach/Nacho makes me doubt scum-HSS so bad that I'm tempted to sheep Squirrel.

On Day freaking 1.

What have I gotten myself into? ._.

PEdit: She has been refusing to go with the flow, Nacho. The fact that you want me to doubt her, provided that she's the only one who's putting pressure on Rach makes me think of Rach/Nacho even more. o_o

[Moonlight]

Call it gut for the most part. And yeah, I can see that possibility of bias too, hence why I'm waffling. >_>

Her frustration feels completely genuine every time I've interacted with her. I know the follow-up question: can't it be scum-frustration? Sure. But how do you explain her honesty behind falling for my bad gambit? She could so easily say she played along and would have gotten towncred by me. She didn't do that, and unless she KNEW her lack of seeking cred would end up giving her cred, I struggle to see her as scum.

What is your read on her and Rach, Nacho? For all the disagreements I've had with Squirrel, I can at least agree with finding Rach's play strangely null-telling.

[Moonlight]

You can understand why I'm also looking at her as possible overcompensating scum though, right?

You never explained your reasoning behind HSS being Town I think. Thoughts on his wagon and Rach's intent to hammer?

[Moonlight]

There was some downtime in the last couple of hours, so...

I'm still filled with doubt. When I try to scumread Rach, everything makes sense in a disturbing way...

She tried to stop Nacho's wagon. Nacho's rhetorical questions felt superfluous to me. She wondered how I know Nacho (worried I might be able to scumread him?). Now Nacho is townreading her, while from my point of view she has been saying pro-Town things, but she herself remains... blank. And Nacho is questioning my read on the one player that's been pushing Rach.

Rach/Nacho is a frightening possibility. What's scary about it is that I can barely convince myself of it, so I'm not exactly confident I can convince others. Finding scum is only half the work and it's all futile if they don't get lynched.

I need to hear from my townreads and what they think of all this.

UNVOTE:

[Moonlight]

I hated 386. "Weak Town read" is not what I got from 144, where Rach seems annoyed at Squirrel, but goes easy on her. I believed she was strongly townreading her, which would explain her lack of questioning.

But a weak read? No. She would have done something to make it stronger. Squirrel is the only one who pushed and who tried to get a read through their interaction.

The fact that Nacho is unable to understand what's causing my read on Squirrel fits perfectly with the "weak Town read" Rach gave her. His tone comes across as annoyed too. I never got that vibe from him in our first game where I doubted him a TON more than this one so far.

You two are preparing to lynch Squirrel on D2, aren't you? I don't care how this makes me look and it's likely that no one will be convinced. I'm doing it regardless.

VOTE: Rach

[Moonlight]

He still might. You can count Rach in (unless my interaction with Nacho changes her read), then you need one by either Nacho or conman.

I want to see what Rach thinks of Nacho. It is so unlike him to not be pushing in any particular direction when the leading wagon is on someone he is townreading.

Meanwhile, I'll go look for games of scum-Squirrel to see if he actually got a point. >_>

[Moonlight]

Found one.

Things that game told me:

1) She's an alt.
2) She's good.
3) She is much nicer as scum.

Because of 2), I don't rule out the possibility that she's faking Town-her, who seems to be more aggressive than scum-her from a quick look at her Town games. But let's just say that when she tells me she doesn't like me or trust me, I believe her.

[Moonlight]

And now after reading that game, the aforementioned possibility and the post above make me go...

nuts

.

Couldn't resist.

Anyway, that game explains why Nacho is wary of Squirrel at least. So I might have read into that a bit too much. >_>

I still want to hear why HSS is Town from Nacho.

And I'm flattered that you still think I'm scum. I

wish

this was my scum-game.

[Moonlight]

I never stopped you from scumhunting in any way, shape or form. Who's misrepping who, exactly? Please quote me.

[Moonlight]

I didn't see how that line of inquiry was part of scumhunting. It didn't seem that way at the time and I've already explained my point of view on that. I even apologized later on, because her answers to your question helped me in figuring out how she thinks (but still leave me clueless to her alignment). >_>

You seemed to be after Rach, now you think it's me & Nacho?

I'm so tempted to vote for Nacho now, but you'll call bussing on that. =P

[Moonlight]

Also,

(except for Moonlight calling the HSS slip thing on me scummy...which, functionally, he did just as much of a slip on as I'm required to be town for his case there to make sense and he's grumping at HSS for doing the same sort of thing while ignoring the hypocrisy of it).

What is this referring to? I'm confused. What slip? Is it the "whoever made the case" thing? I don't see how I'm being a hypocrite.

[Moonlight]

FYI, just me bothering to find a past game you've been scum in is something I'd be too lazy to do as scum. >_> Not proud of it, it's a sad fact to me and this'll be my last game until I find a way to bridge the gap between my townplay and scumplay.

*is afraid the only answer to that is to just keep playing*

[Moonlight]

Now I'm in a lose-lose situation where if I go after Nacho and he flips Town, it's my fault, and if he flips scum, I bussed him.

There's no scenario where I'm Town.

*self votes*

... Naaah.

VOTE: Nacho

If you're actually faking that paranoia that I wanted you to sheep me on Rach, this is so well done.

What have I done to this game? D:

[Moonlight]

It's not LAMIST... just lame. >_>

I cannot tell if Squirrel wants to take out her greatest threat to her scumgame or she is legitimately scumreading Nacho as Town. I am so confused at her right now and she's ending up in my null pile.

How the fuck did I manage to ADD to that pile instead of REMOVING from it as the game goes?

I'm not exactly against an HSS lynch for D1 (because I still think his behavior is more prone to come from newbscum, I just don't rule out newbtown), but NOT before seeing how this one plays out, because I also want to see more from Nacho before the day ends.

[Moonlight]

It is the case thing, functionally you're suggesting he's setting me up after you flip, because he "knows" you'll flip town. The thing is, for him to be setting me up, you need to "know" that I am town - it's the same thing.

I had already ruled out that you two are scum together. I was already scumreading him independently and townreading you independently. I don't require knowledge for that kind of statement, just enough confidence.

Funnily, look at me now with that gone!

[Moonlight]

*raises an eyebrow* I didn't think you're scum for it. I said I have no idea what to make of you now.

If you want to use Nacho to get a proper read on me, by all means.

[Moonlight]

Meanwhile, I am imagining a worst-case scenario where the two scum are players not directly involved in this mayhem, laughing their asses off.

Why am I getting the feeling that I will be facepalming really hard during post-game?

[Moonlight]

Ah, so me voting Nacho moves me from town to scum in your mind, and also, gosh, you're kind of about Nacho/Rach, but now that you're voting Nacho wouldn't it be swell if we all go back to HSS?

As we wait for this clusterfuck of madness to resolve, I'm going to try for the last time to get through to you.

If you're Town, for the sake of this game start looking at my posts using the following duality:

1) How does this post make sense for him to post as Town?
2) How does this post make sense for him to post as scum?

I am getting the feeling that throughout this game you've done none of 1). I cannot find another explanation for your read on me. Just look at what I quoted from you, then look back at what I actually said in the post you're referring to. =/

[Moonlight]

Meanwhile, I'm toying with the idea of a 1-on-1 of me versus Squirrel if she admits she hasn't done any of 1).

Even the worst case scenario of her being Town with me is better than the scenario I'm picturing with scum leaving us both alive for a future LyLo and her voting me out of the blue. =/

If her answer is that, one of us has to go if we want to actually win this.

In my Town games on this site, I'm just being myself and get constantly slammed with an "obvious Town" label. I then find people I can work reads off and we do fine.

I have no clue why this isn't happening in this one. Trying to work with her drains me when she sees that effort as scum-motivated and doesn't seem to even consider I'm a Townie who just wants to work with her.

Excluding my fake hammer, I've been honest throughout the game and I don't know how to deal with this situation.

A 1-on-1 is also selfish, because it forces the rest of you to vote for someone you may not think is scum and I don't want to do this.

I'm just so fed up, really.

[Moonlight]

Well, I need to lynch scum and I find that hard to believe right now. My waffling got too far and now I'm in a situation that I find stupid.

Squirrel is probably thinking that I care about how I look through this. She's wrong.

UNVOTE:

I really don't care. Give it your best shot at lynching me, if you want. I still stand by my reads. They haven't really changed aside from no longer knowing what to make of you and suspecting that if one of Rach and Nacho is scum, the other one is too (but without really scumreading them

independently

).

[Moonlight]

Might as well add my vote back on HSS while I'm at it.

VOTE: HSS

[Moonlight]

There. Now theorize about how this was my master plan all along or whatever, just don't expect me to take it seriously or even respond.

[Moonlight]

Quick question for anyone who would like to answer: What does LAMIST mean. I've never seen it in any other games I've played and I've seen it enough times that I Need to know what it means.

Look At Me I'm So Town.

After catching up I can see the possibility of a scumteam of Rach and Nacho. I think the main reason I find it possible is because they both post very little and don't share as much as I would like them too so I'm not quite sure how their minds work. That is troubling and causes suspicion.

Great minds think alike.

I don't like the idea of a SG vs Moon vote. I firmly believe they are both town based on the amount of logic they both use in their arguments and the fact that I feel that both of their reactions to things are extremely genuine.
The only way either of them is scum is if they never read their role pms and have been playing D1 under the assumption they were town, even though they weren't.

That PM idea is

genius

the reason some mods ask for confirmation by having players PM their roles to the mod instead of posting /confirm.

Despite replacing in and not requiring confirmation, I did read my PM.

Tony is beginning to worry me again. I don't like how easily he is sheeping Moonlight. As soon as Moon changed his vote off of HSS, Tony believed HSS wasn't going not be lynched today. Tony, just because Moon changes his vote doesn't mean anything. Moon is not a townie god and Moon choices doesnt choose for everyone.

I don't worry too much about Tony, because when I try to find scum motivation behind some of his reactions (like his vote on conman), it's a real challenge.

As always questions are welcome. If I've missed anything and you want to know what I think about it please just let me know. As for my vote, I will still be voting for HSS at day end unless him or any other person can convince me of a more viable lynch

Thoughts on Nacho. I know he didn't post much (not entirely his fault, the forums were down for a couple of hours after 418), but anything you have on him is useful.

My thoughts on him are a mess: he seemed annoyed, but considering I'm annoyed at myself right now for all that mess, can't blame him. What I don't like is that he didn't push to any direction and didn't explain his read on HSS, but perhaps he would have done so if the forums remained online. Still null, and yet I still see a strange association between him and Rach. >_<

[Moonlight]

Same thing, dude! You had me as town, I vote Nacho, suddenly I'm downgraded from town towards scum (or from town towards null, or from town towards peanut butter - pick your noun) the point is that you find me less townish for trying to advance a Nacho lynch, Nacho being a player you just got finished calling scum.

That's because he's your buddy.

I do notice you realizing you can't get the Rach lynch and being horrified at the idea of trying a Nacho lynch, yes. What changed to make you abandon Nacho as a lynch option?

I've had enough of your bullshit.

I didn't want to do this, but you completely lack caution. What I say or do in this game is never going to be something you'll even consider coming from Town.

I refuse to believe you can be this blind.

I refuse to believe you got the impression that the reason you're "less towny" has anything to do with Nacho.

I never even called Nacho scum. I reached that read only by association with Rach and even admitted it was something that was hard to convince myself of (because I lacked reads on them independently from each other).

All this effort to get through to you, wasted.

VOTE: Squirrel

[Moonlight]

God damn it with the fucking quotes, the second one was from Tony.

[Moonlight]

No, wait, it wasn't, but I wanted to address his question too.

Go ISO me. The paranoia you're experiencing now is what I experienced when a Rach/Nacho team crossed my mind.

You're now looking at the result.

[Moonlight]

I don't even care what Squirrel flips. I hope she's scum, but even if I'm wrong one of us got to go for a victory to be possible.

Squirrel, I'm really curious to know what you'll tell yourself if you're Town and I get lynched.

PEdit: No, conman. What I refuse to believe is that Town-her wouldn't take me being Town into any consideration in any of her posts. She is not wondering about how to read me. She has decided and it will remain as such for the rest of the game no matter what.

If that's part of her Town-play, I think I prefer her scum-play. She was much better than this in the game I found.

[Moonlight]

And how the fuck does she dare to say her scumread on me comes from me misrepping her when she has misrepped me in every. Single. One. Of. Her. Posts.

I can't believe this bullshit.

Does the fact that this reads as Town vs Town to those not involved tell you nothing? WAKE UP, SQUIRREL.

[Moonlight]

Meanwhile, Squirrel, ask yourself why I, as scum, would waffle on HSS and go paranoid on Rach/Nacho and what I'd gain from it.

"Towncred blah blah blah"

No. I'm doing this and voting you while being perfectly aware I might get lynched because of it. I still don't give a fuck, because I don't want to believe that a player can allow herself to tunnel so hard on someone who genuinely tried to work with her. It's a vote of sadness, bitterness and fucking anger. I am literally throwing an OMGUS vote at you and hoping you're scum. I don't care if I die, because if I were to live you would sabotage my scumhunting for the rest of the game by your constant tunneling.

"That's because you're scum and everyone else is naive and I'm the only one who figures out it's all part of your scumplay!"

NO. WAKE THE FUCK UP.

PEdit: Fine. Lynch me or Squirrel on D2 then, PLEASE. Don't let me go to LyLo with her.

VOTE: HSS

(I promise it'll stay there this time. -_-)

[Moonlight]

Squirrel, don't you even fucking dare to say some kind of bullshit like "How does he know the game will go to LyLo unless he knows the alignment of those who get lynched?".

I'm dealing with worst case scenarios and I've made that clear.

No. More. Bullshit.

[Moonlight]

Did you even ask yourself "Hey wait a minute, perhaps what the masses are seeing maybe, just maaaaaybe is right?!".

Nope. You did not.

And you're still treating me as if I'm the kind of person who gives a crap about how his posts make him look.

I'll be off now. Do your thing while I'm gone, convince them I'm scum. Just remember this moment post-game.

[Moonlight]

Wait, one last thing:

Well, I need to lynch scum and I find that hard to believe right now. My waffling got too far and now I'm in a situation that I find stupid.

An appeal to the masses of us being T v. T while also advocating that we go 1 v. 1 and then calling me stupid for it?

Never called

you

stupid. You've misrepped me more times than I can be arsed to quote.

Calling me scum is part of the game. Saying I resorted to ad hominem when I didn't is fucking horrible.

Off for real now.

[Moonlight]

Oh, right, because this post;

Does the fact that this reads as Town vs Town to those not involved tell you nothing? WAKE UP, SQUIRREL.

Meant that I was being intelligent.

That has nothing to do with your intelligence. What you're saying would have been true only if intelligent people never did anything stupid. Reality shows that to be false every damn day.

Me believing that what you're doing in this game is stupid is

in no way

a judgment of your own intelligence.

You keep giving your own subjective interpretation to what I say, and when asked why I'm scum you're citing that I stopped you from scumhunting Rach, which again was your subjective interpretation of the situation that left no room for my own.

[Moonlight]

There is a huge difference between freaking out as Town and as scum and it comes down to reason. She has yet to catch me on anything, because there isn't anything to catch me on. -_- She simply blows things I say out of proportion and I'm freaking out because I do not understand why. What does she have to gain by doing all this?

Either she's Town who decided to troll in this particular game or scum who is trying to appear as the former. I can't take her seriously anymore.

[Moonlight]

Meh, 1/10.

[Moonlight]

As tempted as I am to regale you with my responses, certain players need to catch up and I believe you'd just fill pages with more of that fantasy of yours where I get to be scum.

I'm ignoring your trolling from now on, it's gotten old.

(You speak as if you know it's a mislynch. Cool, cool.)

[Moonlight]

Did you just claim scum?

[Moonlight]

Oh damn, even if you did you just wanted a response. I keep forgetting you just want to troll.

Won't happen again.

[Moonlight]

(Much of this was typed as I waited for the Night to end)

My humble apologies to every player in this game, especially Squirrel. Most of my frustration with her was genuine, but I exaggerated a bit. In particular, the part of asking for a 1 vs 1 was complete and utter bullshit.

I have noticed in my Town games that I tend to be a strong consideration for a night kill. I did not want that in this one.

The best idea I had was to convince the remaining scum that I would spend Day 2 in a pointless war against Squirrel.

Much of my confidence in my HSS read faded partly due to my own tendency to waffle and partly due to being confident in my read on Squirrel, resulting in paying attention to her doubts (CURSE YOU! <3). But his flip made this easy.

I tracked BC, who visited Tony.

VOTE: BC

[Moonlight]

As we wait for a counterclaim that won't be happening, why did you pick Tony? Just curious.

[Moonlight]

AWESOME.

Important:

I lied about who I tracked, but I am indeed a Tracker. I tracked Nacho, and he is clear.

Before you jump to the conclusion that lying is bad and lying means I'm scum, ask yourself how me not getting counterclaimed as Tracker is possible.

It isn't. If I was a Roleblocker, a Jailkeeper or Cop claim would get me lynched and Town wins. If I was a Goon, a real Tracker, Jailkeeper or Cop would too and Town wins. None of that is happening.

BC is someone that fits the bill as HSS' scumbuddy and I wanted to see his reaction. <_<

UNVOTE:

(And now I can stop refreshing the thread like a madman.)

[Moonlight]

I would have posted the above if you got to L-1 without replying.

You're now confTown with Nacho and me.

We've won.

[Moonlight]

Well, it's almost a win, they still have a pool of 3 other unconfirmed Townies. But it's looking real bad for scum now.

[Moonlight]

So... we have conman, Kenobi, Squirrel and Rach to worry about.

conman and Kenobi I feel GREAT about. It's one of the gals.

[Moonlight]

The only real risk of my gambit I had to worry about was about unpredictable internet connection and your fast reply helped immensely. xD

Your quick reaction and the certainty with which you called me for my bullshit is also something scum wouldn't do when a Tracker says they're guilty.

The only drawback to it was you revealing you're a VT, but it's a small price to pay in my opinion.

I am actually inclined to vote Squirrel, but I'm biased. I'm sure she didn't expect me to do any of this.

Hold on... there are some posts I need to find that made me consider her overnight as a possible buddy to HSS.

[Moonlight]

In 102, HSS' vote for Tony comes

just

as Tony becomes convinced of Squirrel.

Then there's 168, which reads to me as "I'll just shoot Tony in the night, mislynch Moonlight tomorrow while blaming him for outing Tony".

Try again, Squirrel.

VOTE: Squirrel Girl

PEdit: @conman: It tells me who that person targeted in the night. My lie was about BC targetting Tony, and Tony being dead would have meant BC shot Tony. In reality I tracked Nacho, who did nothing. With Tony dead, this means that Nacho is Town.

[Moonlight]

@conman: With 1 scum already dead, practically none when there's a nightkill.

If there had been no NK and I got a result, I wouldn't know if that player is a Doctor or scum that took the shot.

[Moonlight]

*is kicking himself for townreading Squirrel most of D1*

"Because she replied too fast and scumhunted". You'd think I'd take a hint with how much self-awareness she showed in 215, but nope!

Nacho's read on Rach helps, I really suck at trying to read her. =X

[Moonlight]

Why is one required? There's no doubt he's Town, and he has the benefit of having played with her before. I'm more than happy to take his word for it for now at least. =P

[Moonlight]

You're technically right to not take my word for it yet with Kenobi, Squirrel and Rach still missing, but you can probably understand why I don't really care about the reasons he's townreading her when he's hangover.

Even in a parallel universe where I'd be crazy enough to pull this off as scum, there's only 1 scum slot left so Nacho (and arguably BC too) is clear anyway!

[Moonlight]

If you need some convincing about Squirrel, other than what I've pointed out, look at 232 and how she seems to prepare the ground for an attack on D2 on Nacho and me.

Nacho and me being the alleged scum team according to her later on D1 wasn't a coincidence whatsoever.

[Moonlight]

Also, I'm being naive in 315, because I had already shown in 265 that I'm dismissing Squirrel and HSS as a team, so him refering to her as "whoever made the case" could have been fabricated.

[Moonlight]

I'm going to hit the hay now, but just in case Squirrel decides to counterclaim me and get me lynched for the lulz:

T

ony's post confuses me probably less than it should.

Now that town isn't sure about my alignment,

A

r

e you distancing yourself from Town here or am I reading too much into something again?

I'm less likely to get the NK.

Fe

a

r of a NK hints at a power role, but I'll go into WIFOM territory if I ask myself whether you'd fake it as VT or scum.

Moonlight's definitely gotten some good information out of people, and my gut feeling at the moment is that he's town.

SG feels town, too. At the moment, I'm mostly going off of gut, because there really isn't too much out there yet.

Wat

c

hing our interaction should have given you a bit to analyze, but I guess it might be too early.

Spea

k

ing of analysis, I don't know what to make of Rach's helpfulness and playing as an unofficial second IC but it's probably non-indicative of alignment. Inexp

er

ienced newbies will appreciate it though and that can't be bad, especially without Nacho around.

1st letter of 1st sentence, 2nd letter of 2nd etc.

("er" counts as one letter because it's surprisingly hard to find words with "r" as the 7th letter and I didn't want to repeat "inexperienced".)

[Moonlight]

Don't you guys think it's at least a little bit odd that they chose to shoot Tony over Moon? As the most influential player in the game, I'd have thought that Moon was the better target, as he's a bigger threat to the mafia.

Well...

I'll have to admit, HSS is still pretty scummy to me, but Moonlight, your behaviour, and the pandering that Tony's giving you is really, reaaaaally pushing me to thinking that you're a scumteam.

I really didn't want to have to do this, but I guess I have no choice.

Much of my confidence behind Tony's towniness comes from the way he... phrased something. You know what a breadcrumb is, right? I've spotted an unusual one from him that would be a complete coincidence if it came from scum. And I don't believe in coincidence.

This is two Townies working together. Learn the difference. -_-

That might have something to do with it. I saw something I interpreted as a bulletproof breadcrumb. Whoops!

Plus, Tony was just as obvious as I was (if not more) with HSS' flip.

Squirrel is probably scum. Her "I'm going to vote Rach" in 535 after having already cast the vote reads as scum thinking "What should I do?" and trying to tell herself she is doing the best she can out of a shitty situation for her. I'd have expected her to use something stronger than her case on Rach yesterday; why is Rach's hammer being challenged by BC, but not by Squirrel?

I'm happy with my vote.

[Moonlight]

That sounds about right if neither you nor Nacho are the remaining PR.

[Moonlight]

@conman: That would be whoever's got the 2nd power role (Doctor or 1-shot BP). If someone claimed, it would either lead to Town lynching the last scum eventually if a counterclaim happened, or to us having 4 Townies in the clear.

I don't think it's necessary, mostly because I'm scumreading Squirrel.

@Nacho: That makes sense. If she is aware of her own meta though, it's not out of the question for her to play like this as scum, especially if she anticipated you giving her a Town read due to previous meta. I don't believe that's the case, just thinking out loud. I like how cautious she is in 537. I didn't know what to make of her caution on Day 1, but her being that way now with the pressure on Squirrel doesn't make sense from a scum perspective; she'd be denying an excellent opportunity for a mislynch.

If Squirrel somehow flips Town... I honestly don't know which read of mine I'd doubt first. Both conman and Kenobi look incredibly Town to me, BC's reaction to my gambit didn't seem fake at all, Nacho's clear and Rach's starting to look good. Process of elimination points to Squirrel and I've already been seeing things that make sense for her to do as scum.

[Moonlight]

Like what? That's an unfair request. My top scum read is cleared via PR claim, the kills didn't tell me much else, the other clears weren't full of my scum reads. What info did I gain on Rach that I was supposed to use? I'd love you to tell me, I'd be fascinated to hear you break down how I'm underperforming here. C'mon, let me know what I shold have added if I wasn't such terrible scum doing a terrible case. What should I have included? What other info was there that I scummily overlooked in my rush to present the awesome scum case I did?

*whistles* Guilt-tripping at its finest.

If I was in your shoes as Town, I'd be paranoid. I wouldn't be just after Rach, I'd be doubting all my reads, I'd be looking for dirt on Kenobi and conman as well, I would be more motivated than you are right now.

And Moon's a jerk.

And you have cooties!

[Moonlight]

You townread HSS, scumread Nacho and me, all of which were wrong and yet you didn't think "Hey, maybe I should re-examine every one of my reads"? Nah, you're not lazy enough.

Why are you this upset? No one likes dying, but if you flip Town, you know that Rach will be a good consideration for Day 3. You're acting as if your death is the end of everything.

Because it is, isn't it?

I did not criticize the quality of your game, I just explained what I'd expect that Town-you would do from the little I've seen from you in this game.

[Moonlight]

I never said you should be happy or proud. I'm saying that if I was in your position, I would be taking advantage of my flip to expose scum. Remember how when I thought I was at L-1 I yelled about an HSS/BC team? I was angry, but mostly at myself and yeah, I realize I'm probably the exception when it comes to directing anger.

Anyway, despite scumreading you I've been wrong before so I gotta ask: if we assumed Rach is Town, who would you scumread next and why? Or are you so confident that it's her?

I've been trying to understand how you seem so confident in your reads every time. First you wanted a wagon on Nacho, then I replace in and you abandon the idea altogether and scumhunt me and Rach, then Nacho posts, you abandon Rach and pair me with him while thinking I wanted to turn you against Rach.

And then Day 2 happened, with you somehow confident it's Rach after letting it all sink in.

Either I fail to understand the way your mind works, or this doesn't add up. =/ I'm trying, believe me.

[Moonlight]

How have I been a dick to her? Well, besides calling her a troll near the end of D1, I explained why I did that.

As for you, conman, you're the one I'm most sure about among the unconfirmed ones. Kenobi follows and I do see a few things that made stop and consider him as potential scum (377 is an example: lynching HSS being a win/win gave me chills. >_>), but most of his posts have been pro-Town.

I'd actually be willing to sheep Nacho completely when it comes to reading Rach and try to look at scum-Kenobi as a possibility if Squirrel flipped Town. But we'd have to actually go through with that lynch first and I'll die in the night if there's no Doc. >_>

[Moonlight]

How have I been a dick to her?

Your superior attitude and constant talking down to me.

I guess you have a problem with me as a person then. I don't have a problem with you and I honestly feel bad when someone enjoys the game less and I'm the reason, but I don't see how I can do anything about it. =/

As for your train of thought in 569, what I don't understand is how you kept Rach as a scumread. You were bold enough to call out a team of me and Nacho without townreading Rach? Just because you saw a correlation and I was your top scumread? At least when I used a correlation to link Nacho with Rach, I eventually concluded that I'm being an idiot and that a correlation isn't nearly enough when I lack solid independent reads on them.

If anything, you've shown remarkable self-awareness before, so forgive me for not believing in you not recognizing where you went wrong while I was doing just that.

[Moonlight]

I'm off for tonight, but I want to know who Nacho and Kenobi are scumreading.

conman too as soon as he's done with the ISOs.

[Moonlight]

I did townread Rach at that point - I said as much.

No, you said all 3 of us looked scummy, I just looked scummy with Nacho and not with Rach.

So you've gone from scumreading her to townreading her through (lack of) correlation to scumreading her again, without showing a hint of doubt in your ability to read her at any point. I find that hard to understand.

I'm giving intent to lynch SG, but I'm gonna wait a while just to be sure everyone is okay with it.

I am, but it's probably best to wait for Nacho and Kenobi to give us their opinion just in case her lynch doesn't end this.

[Moonlight]

I did townread Rach at that point - I said as much.

No, you said all 3 of us looked scummy, I just looked scummy with Nacho and not with Rach.

Nooooooo...

425
434
441

It is a very clear and obvious "Moonlight was trying to get me to help mislynch Rach and wants to avoid voting Nacho - so I'm calling Moonlight/Nacho as the scum team"

You're basically repeating what I've already said: that the only reason you townread Rach at the time was because you thought you found the scum team in me and Nacho.

And I'm saying again why I think this is a lie: you have shown enough self-awareness to know yourself that a correlation on D1 doesn't mean much until you see a flip on one of the players. I made that mistake with Rach/Nacho, realized that I don't have a proper read on either independently, went back to voting for my one and only scumread on D1 (the fact that no one was scumreading Nacho and everyone just wanted him to just post more didn't help; pressure wagons don't apply pressure when they're obvious).

Your confidence behind your changed read on Rach is one of the two reasons I'm scumreading you, the other one has been stated already: that you did everything you could to derail the HSS wagon.

Since Nacho is confirmed Town and he is confident he can read Rach like an open book, why haven't you given his townread on her any thought? Why haven't you been scumhunting anyone else on this day? Why aren't you prodding Nacho with questions on his townread on Rach if you're so convinced she's scum?

You lack motivation to do any of that. =/

[Moonlight]

I'll play devil's advocate and say "Hmm, perhaps she's too busy defending herself, so there was no time for questions", but that reasoning is not valid in my opinion because your vote on Rach came in 531, after Nacho had already defended Rach in 520. You had all the time in the world there to ask for an explanation on his read and you never took it.

Or, if you somehow don't consider a confirmed Nacho someone worthwhile working with, you could have chosen to solidify your read on Kenobi by asking him questions.

By the way, my condolences to you, Kenobi. =(

[Moonlight]

What I'm complaining about is a fallacy that you either don't understand or pretend not to: your read on Rach changed from scum to Town and back to scum not because of what Rach said and did, but what others did, and they weren't even scum so there's no real connection. You're a good player and I believe you were aware of this fallacy at the time you townread her, so your confidence doesn't make sense to me.

As for refusing to consider a confirmed Townie's point of view because he didn't show inclination to cooperate... wow. And you continue to use the same fallacy for Kenobi and Rach. How does your read on Kenobi depend on what Rach flips? He is not responsible for her alignment, so how do you judge his based on hers?

I've been trying to understand where you're coming from, but I just don't. I guess we think too differently (and before you ask, no, that's not me judging your intelligence, I say exactly what I mean).

[Moonlight]

The fallacy is that the same play reads different to you depending on how others flip. There's 1 scum left and you're scumreading Rach. But if you're wrong and she flips Town, you'd be moving on to someone you are currently townreading. Does that not bother you? And if it does, why wait, there's plenty of time to get more out of Kenobi that will take care of the mild read one way or another.

PEdit: I was going to go to bed but here comes Nacho. I still think she is scum. What's your take?

[Moonlight]

In my quick overview of SG recent posts, unless im mistaken, she never said that she found Kenobi to be town. She only said that between Rach and Kenobi she thinks Rach would be scum. I feel like your putting words in her mouth. I understand that you believe her to be scum but that type of behavior is unacceptable from a town player.

If I knew right now Rach was town, then I would vote Kenobi. I am really pretty certain on my Conman read, and Kenobi has been more of a mild town for me throughout.

Shame on me.

I'm off to bed. Too cranky to say anything useful.

[Moonlight]

Start a "Moonlight is a jerk" fan club then, I'll join it. It took me seconds to hit the ISO link on Squirrel, Ctrl+F "Kenobi" and find that. I don't appreciate that you didn't do that before jumping to the conclusion that I'm misrepping someone.

Having one scum left should not be used as an excuse for lacking a solid read on someone and avoiding to work on it, especially when your scumread looks unlikely to be lynched.

It's possible I'm being biased by expecting more than I should out of Squirrel because I was impressed by her scum game, but I don't think that's what's happening. Nacho is good at spotting such behavior, which is why I'm asking for his input.

[Moonlight]

I agree that Kenobi and HSS don't seem very likely as a pair, the only connection being his short-lived push on me on D1 that you've commented on. I didn't really like his D2 posts in the sense that he didn't go after anyone in particular, but his last post shows his thoughts.

Good to know that I'm not the only one who sees laziness in Squirrel's D2 play. Can we just hammer her and win this before I start wondering if BC's 502 was masterfully fabricated in expectation of that gambit from me?

[Moonlight]

Do you think it was him taking a shot in the dark for the only thing that would save him? He seemed certain I was full of it.

[Moonlight]

Hmm. My thoughts on that is that as scum, 543 makes a lot of sense, since it would let him know whether he should shoot me if we mislynch today. Right now, the last scum has to worry about a 50% chance of me getting protected in the night.

[Moonlight]

That said, that's the kind of thing I would have expected to be pointed out by town-Squirrel on the verge of getting mislynched and the fact that she's not exploring other options than Rach tells me she's giving up as the last scum.

[Moonlight]

I say fire away if you want to, she has claimed and we seem to be going in circles.

I really tried to see how her play makes sense from a Town point of view, but I just can't see it fitting. I believe the lynch will end the game, but just in case I'm wrong and I happen to die in the night, I want to say 2 things:

1) You'll have a clear Nacho to work with.

Do that

.
2) Do not, under any circumstances, let an "I don't care what happens in this game, no one listens to me anyway" attitude build up. Don't be afraid to make pushes, don't lose spirit, yadda yadda yadda <insert more cliches here>. You get what I mean.

[Moonlight]

Ah, nice crumb, didn't spot it! It crossed my mind that you were the other PR (but I couldn't tell which) when you commented on the probability of which one is in the game.

Kudos to Squirrel for not giving up. This couldn't have been easy and there were times I was sooo close to waffling on my scumread on you. I hope you hold no grudges, I enjoyed playing with you and I'm sorry if you actually meant your remarks. =X

A big thanks to Nacho for making me have another look at Squirrel on D1. I was so sold that she was Town that had been tunneling me when you questioned my read.

conman, if you always play like this as Town, I don't see you being lynched... ever. You were amazingly obvious and that helped so much to work with a PoE approach!

Same to Kenobi. Even though I doubted my read on you for a while, much of your D1 play was also hard to look at from a scum perspective. Thanks for the protection too!

BC, I couldn't get a solid read on you for some reason and even considered tracking you. I changed my mind and tracked Nacho instead because he is hard to read for everyone and I'm glad the gambit worked and you posted that fast. In hindsight, I should have paid more attention to how your read on me progressed on D1, it felt natural but I still couldn't get out of my head that you might have wanted to bus HSS there. =X Sorry!

Tony... you're scarily good at reading me. o_o The way you just sheeped me from D1 made me ask myself "Am I really this obvious to him?". Sorry I got you killed, when you said "I'm just a n00b" I thought the zeros wanted me to pay attention to the double "o"... as in, bulletpr

oo

f. xD

HSS, don't let the defeat discourage you. Some of your play came from inexperience and wasn't alignment indicative on its own. What made me focus on you was the change of your read on Tony. It was too fast, it's uncommon for reads to really change like that (take a look at BC and how his scumread on me faded in a very progressive way as an example). Look on the bright side, use this game to work on your play and keep having fun!

Thanks to NS for modding this, I'm sorry for messing up the quotes back there. I enjoyed this game a lot. :3

[Moonlight]

DARN IT I FORGOT RACH. D:

Cautious play is something I've noticed I have trouble reading properly on D1, but I liked your D2 posts a lot and the caution there felt very towny. I probably should have figured out that you could have done more to help HSS if you were his buddy instead of hammering him when you did, I'm glad Nacho made me realize that. :3

[Moonlight]

You weren't being stupid at all. I'm not sure myself why your reads felt strange, but my guess is that you were trying to make them look consistent and pass it off as confidence, so maybe they lacked fluidity. If you were Town, I would have expected my D2 play to shake you. Being confident that Rach is scum after seeing your top two scumreads being in the clear and being wrong on HSS would make even the most confident Townie pause and work with more angles in my opinion.

I hope to play with you again, I can learn from your scum play, you had me fooled for most of D1!

[Moonlight]

*is trying to think of how he'd imagine a Townie doing what you did*

I think I would have waffled hard if you had questioned Rach more on D2 instead of using your case from D1. Your confidence behind "Rach is scum, lynch her next" wasn't convincing. It wasn't the read itself, it was how it was presented. That's all my opinion of course and I'm biased because I'm always doubtful as Town, so that much confidence never sits right with me and I always ask myself where it's coming from.

I hope some of that helps. If not, maybe Nacho can chime in.