Newbie 1517: Crossroads Mafia (Game Over)

[Clusk92]

VOTE: Shaddowez

For 'middling' the list

[Clusk92]

Why do you not want to vote?

[Clusk92]

I don't vote during RVS. I like to spend time talking and reading. We've got 2 weeks, and I intend to use it.

I don't think voting during RVS is gonna cause us to lynch prematurely, lynches normally take a while to occur on this site.

To be fair, having skimmed through your previous game (where you were town) it seemed you were reluctant to vote in that game as well, so this stance doesn't seem too suspicious atm.

Was your FoS on Lucy random? Never seen a random FoS before

[Clusk92]

I'm probably being dense but I have no idea what you mean by that

[Clusk92]

Oh ok. Jokey reasons for voting for someone are still considered random though

[Clusk92]

Or 'FoSing' in this case

[Clusk92]

@ Billi: Assuming that the three on there are town, that leaves 2 mafia votes out there. While not the smartest of moves, the 2 mafia could quickly come on and vote TSO, resulting in a mislynch.

Even if that was the case, I doubt the mafia would be that stupid, as they'll be prime candidates for a lynch the next day for lynching someone so early.

[Clusk92]

VOTE: Victor

That reason for voting Doogal was superweak, it's normal for newbies to have concerns about someone being L-2 this early on.

[Clusk92]

Shameful prod dodge post here, but there's not been much activity so.

Reads so far:

Town

:

Doogal

Leantown

:

TSO
Billi

Leanscum

:

Victor

The rest are null.

[Clusk92]

Victor, are you implying your scummy looking vote on Doogal was just you fishing for reactions?

[Clusk92]

Because that's a typical excuse for scum when they do something scummy.

[Clusk92]

Why have you put him at L-1 so early?

[Clusk92]

No-ones stupid enough you're right, still possible for an accidental hammer though.

[Clusk92]

No-ones stupid enough you're right, still possible for an accidental hammer though.

If you are worried about accidental hammerings, why don't you unvote?

Wasn't particularly worried - just explaining it was a possibility. I also think TSO's reasons for L-1 outweighed mine.

Doogal, I'd like to explain why you felt the need to wait a week to vote so you can 'take time talking and reading' and yet when its over you vote for Rach just to get her involved in the game. It makes the wait seem a bit pointless if that's the best vote you can come up with after analysing the thread.

[Clusk92]

With regards to Victor's attitude to being close to lynched, it could easily still be a scum bluff or scum who's given up easily, I've seen both before.

[Clusk92]

He's not looking for much. He's reacting to Victor. He's reacting to Doogal.
He's writing a lot of posts but he seems to keep the focus just on those players that are active.
My 3rd vote on him, originally wasn't purely RVS, although mainly it was so.
Victor may have been reading him correctly, although he was presenting his case in an unconvincing manner. Dismissing that case must not exonerate T S O from possible mafia-participation.

Would you not expect him to focus on active players? Focusing on inactive players is a lot more difficult as there's a lot less to go off.

[Clusk92]

Sorry about the long abscence - I will catch up soon

[Clusk92]

The Doogal lynch happened really fast, and Rach's wagon disappeared very quickly after being put to L-1. This indicates to me a scum counter-wagon.

Rach has a townread on Doogal in #232 and just SIX posts later hammers him. That change of mind wasn't natural in that short space of time.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Clusk92]

I am getting bad vibes from Clusk, half of his ISO is him trying to spread doubt "this could all be a scum bluff" or "be careful guys, somebody might hammer. Not that I am going to unvote or anything"

These are the same thoughts I had on him in my initial reads.

Clusk - Possibly Scum
The primary scummy things I have seen from Clusk are that on two different occasions, making a comment about "mafia wouldn't be stupid enough to...". Usually when someone is trying to paint a picture of what mafia do or don't do, they are trying to give the town a mafia description that will eventually clear themselves due to mismatch.

Just quoting so it can be added to the current discussion.

Also to that point:

No-ones stupid enough you're right, still possible for an accidental hammer though.

The Doogal lynch happened really fast, and Rach's wagon disappeared very quickly after being put to L-1. This indicates to me a scum counter-wagon.

Rach has a townread on Doogal in #232 and just SIX posts later hammers him. That change of mind wasn't natural in that short space of time.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

You said no one is stupid enough to put in the final vote as mafia, yet you are voting for Rach for doing exactly that.

Take this with a grain of salt, as there is some imagination here, but a possible scenario to think about:

Clusk lays out in two different early posts that scum most likely wouldn't give the final vote. This paves the way for Rach to hammer Doogal without suspicion despite how quick it was. Unfortunately, the other circumstances surrounding that wagon and Rach's posts themselves continued to make her seem very guilty(at least to me and a couple others). As she was unable to post very much, this took off some heat on her which, unfortunately for Clusk, turned to him. Seeing himself in the heat, he finds the perfect way to get out: lead a lynch on his mafia counterpart. Not only can he take the current heat off of himself by trying to put town onto something he knows we can probably get behind, but he clears himself in the future as the person who lead town to kill scum.

I said scum wouldn't be stupid enough to hammer early on. Rach's hammer wasn't an early hammer.

There wasn't any heat on me when I voted for N_M, so that (imaginative, I'll give you that) theory falls a bit flat

Feel a bit better about N_M now after his posts, and I agree on second thoughts that the hammer could have come from either town or scum in that position - and with not much time remaining

UNVOTE:

Glass and Mala seem town to me, suspicious of Shaddow and Billi, the latter in particular for being annoyed at votes on Doogal even though he was on the same wagon and saying there was plenty of time when there wasn't. Still got a solid scumread on Victor based on his posts throughout the game solidified by his rolefishing at the start of the day.

VOTE: Victor

[Clusk92]

...
[/line]189: You think he was distancing from Victor? Explain this please
...

Victor isn't the only possible mafia although my vote might be on him at the time. As you say in your next quote here below, I pretty much see a mafioso in every corner.
But, then again, I think you are misunderstanding my post. I said he was: "distancing himself from a mafia-

role

". Not from a "... mafia-

partner

".

I don't understand what you mean by distancing from a mafia role, can you elaborate please?
...

When I ISO'd acryon I got the overall feeling that he was more focus on giving the message that he was not in the mafia, than finding out who was. (And now, when I ISO him again, he is pretty focused on Victor - so, yes, he might be distancing himself from Victor.)

When reading through this thread for the very first time, I was getting the impression that Victor was scum, but after a couple more of his posts, I realized that I think it was just his play-style that was rubbing me the wrong way. When I took that out of the equation, coupled with some very-town posts from him, my scum-read disappeared.

Feel a bit better about N_M now after his posts, and I agree on second thoughts that the hammer could have come from either town or scum in that position - and with not much time remaining

UNVOTE:

Wait, what? So you think that a town that has a

town-read

on someone would rather hammer them than hammer no one?

For the record, I do still think N_M is scum as well, but this one seems easier to get us to agree on at the moment.
VOTE: Clusk

Yes. From a town perspective, they know they're 100% town. The town-read they're hammering is not 100% town. Therefore, in the circumstances (little time left and no other alternative lynching options apart from themselves) it's the optimal play.

@Bins, is that cop claim a joke or a serious one?

[Clusk92]

Billi, got any games to link me where you're town and wagon hopping?

Bins: I find your play a bit contradictory so far, in your reads list you say I'm null but in the next line I lean scum. It's almost like you're giving yourself some wiggle room

What do you mean by 'safe lynch'?

[Clusk92]

If I had 2 null reads and 2 scum reads, I wouldn't contemplate lynching/hopping on the wagon of my null reads unless it's late in the day

[Clusk92]

Hehe, thanks! And I'm making dinner! Steak teriyaki.

Why does this seem so menacing?

As for my read/attitude towards Clusk, I'm going to admit I'm probably a bit gunshy. We've been in a couple of games together now, and he seems to be acting the same way this game he did last time. I hopped on his wagon that game because I thought he was scummy, and he ended up being VT. I'm going to go through his ISO again and try to be as unbiased as possible, but it's in my nature to not like making the same mistake twice.

Neat.
@Clusk
Thoughts on shadow?

Waiting for Clusk to reply to Shadow's most recent post before I do.

It worries me slightly that he doesn't realise N_M replaced into Rach's slot (hence why I voted for him). He needs to be paying closer attention to the game.

I disagree with his opinion that my vote on Victor was weak, scum often vote for people based on weak/fabricated reasons I find, and me voting for that reason isn't 'weak' imo.

Shaddow: can you please point out the contradiction please?

At the moment I think the scum team is one out of Shaddow/Billi and Bins, I will go through some ISO's either tonight or tomorrow.

[Clusk92]

Now I think shaddowez is making so many mistakes because of inattention that he can't really be a mafioso.
I think my vote is better used in being the 3rd vote on Clusk, to up the pressure there.

VOTE: Clusk92

You don't think scum make mistakes?

[Clusk92]

I can't believe your top scum read has evaporated because he's making mistakes

[Clusk92]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Billi

[Clusk92]

Okay, I really don't like this vote:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Billi

I do agree that Billi's reasoning for switching votes was weak (also I little awkward) - but I don't think that it came from a scum mentality. Why would he move his vote of Shaddow if he was scum? I don't see any reason he would be uncomfortable with the wagon, as it also seems to be gaining momentum. Therefore, I don't see how it caused Clusk to move his vote from someone (me) he said he suspected to be part of the scum team 100% (as he said I would be the partner to both of them).

The reason for his change in opinion feels really fabricated to me. Before, I had eliminated the possibility of both of them being scum because of how much they were attacking each other, so thought the most likely scum team would only involve one of them and yourself. Now he's backed out so suddenly of scumreading Shaddow because of a silly reason (imo) suggests the possibility of a Billi and Shaddow scumteam and he may have felt his bussing of Shaddow went too far and backed out.

[Clusk92]

If it's just between these two wagons for the lynch today I'd prefer a Shaddow lynch.

Don't want both being put at L-1 though, two claims would be bad, so I may hold off for now

[Clusk92]

Now he's backed out so suddenly of scumreading Shaddow because of a silly reason (imo) suggests the possibility of a Billi and Shaddow scumteam and he may have felt his bussing of Shaddow went too far and backed out.

Considering I've had my vote on Billi for a good portion of the day (and part of D1), wouldn't it be dumb for us to be bussing each other if we were both scum?

WIFOM argument is bad, very bad.

Also that's why he might have backed out - he realised it's too risky

[Clusk92]

Not_Mafia (when RachMarie) has already claimed VT.

Oh yeah, forgot about that

[Clusk92]

Fuck it

VOTE: Shaddow

[Clusk92]

L-1 now

[Clusk92]

L-1 now

Are we really going to get close to taking down the same scum(N_M) again and instead counter-wagon onto a town?

Is he a town?

[Clusk92]

What makes you so sure?

P-edit @ Acryon

[Clusk92]

I should clarify, what makes you so sure Shaddow is town?

[Clusk92]

I wouldn't have hopped on to the Doogal wagon cos it was dumb

[Clusk92]

I'm an honest guy! You'll see after the game

[Clusk92]

My fingers itch to finish off shaddowez. Best I step away from the computer for a bit.

You mean the guy you didn't scumread all of a sudden?

You do confuse me

[Clusk92]

PR claims mean something, having several VT claims means the PR pool is narrowed down for scum. Every claim means something. Why did make Clusk scummy?

PR claims do mean something, but I don't buy that VT claims mean much of anything. And that's assuming we actually believe you aren't scum. Why would you ever believe someone that says they are VT? 100% of scum could/would say that too.

Scum can easily claim VT, but every real VT claim that is drawn out (and isn't lynched) makes it easier for scum to kill a PR. So why is Clusk scummy for wanting to minimise the amount of claims we have?

He isn't scummy for wanting to minimize the amount of claims. I thought it was scummy that he was indicating his belief in the Rach claim.

I didn't really believe Rach's claim, it's null. Just preferred to lynch Shaddow

[Clusk92]

And yes I know it's hypocritical cos I wanted to minimise claims but I'd really prefer to lynch Shaddow over N_M so oh well

[Clusk92]

My fingers itch to finish off shaddowez. Best I step away from the computer for a bit.

You mean the guy you didn't scumread all of a sudden?

You do confuse me

So the guy who dropped all the way down to 3rd place was suddenly not a scumread?

Well, if I confuse you, then you might let me live through the night

.

You said in 376 that he 'can't really be mafia'. Doesn't really indicate a scumread at all to me

Also re:the bolded - this is why this guy needs rope tomorrow

[Clusk92]

I'm really confused

[Clusk92]

Doesn't normally take much though

[Clusk92]

I would definitely claim if you're a PR. You may die in the night but it stops us from lynching a townie and increases our chances of lynching scum today.

[Clusk92]

Shall I hammer the NL?

[Clusk92]

I'm curious as to why Mala and Glass (who were universally townread) were left alive

[Clusk92]

Whatever.

VOTE: No Lynch

[Clusk92]

I'll post some more detailed thoughts tomorrow, but right now I honestly wouldn't be opposed to lynching one of NM, Bins or Acryon

[Clusk92]

I've had on and off suspicions of two of those all game, and you started making me suspicious with your twilight posting. I'm often seen as scummy as town unfortunately. I need to work on that part of my game.

[Clusk92]

Just for the simple fact that two town counter wagons formed when a wagon built on N_M suggests to me odds are that he has to be scum, right?

[Clusk92]

VT

[Clusk92]

You?

[Clusk92]

Well someone's lying then

[Clusk92]

Because I thought Shaddow was scum at the time. One town counter-wagon I can let slide. Two town counter-wagons I can't.

[Clusk92]

Eh, I don't really know. Obviously the scum either hit a bulletproof or the doctor successfully protected someone.

[Clusk92]

No matter who scum is I suspect they'd have a reason to kill you due to the fact you were universally townread by everyone, so that doesn't rule Bins out.

[Clusk92]

You want to keep as many scummy people in the game as possible. Keeping in people who aren't going to get mislynched makes it harder for scum.

Anyway, it looks like it's two from Mala/Bins/NM, unless you're lying about your claim (unlikely)

Gonna follow through on my suspicions on NM

[post=Not_Mafia]Not_Mafia[/post]

Acryon, I urge you to change your vote from me to NM, before I get double quick-hammered.

[Clusk92]

Oops.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Clusk92]

GG scum